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Tally Man
01-14-2005, 07:10 PM
I have been studying martial arts for quit a while and recently have taken up an Israeli martial art called Krav Maga that the IDF is taught; what are some other types of hand to hand combat styles do other military units use and what do you feel is the best?


The Krav Maga symbol consists of the Hebrew letters K and M surrounded by an open circle because the system is open to improvement by adding techniques, exercises, and training methods.

"Good things can continue to flow into the system and flawed exercises can flow out."
-- Imi Lichtenfeld, the Grand Master of Krav Maga

Krav Maga is not a traditional martial art. It was developed in a hostile environment in which combatants could not devote many hours to hand to hand combat training. Therefore, the Krav Maga system was created to bring students to a high level of proficiency in a relatively short period of time. There are no forms (katas) or rules or set combinations as reactions to attacks. Instead, Krav Maga training focuses on teaching simple self-defense techniques which are specifically catered to reality based attack situations.

The art of Krav Maga is much more of a survival system dealing with personal safety issues. It is considered to be a modern, highly refined, street fighting system, designed to be used against armed and unarmed attackers. Krav Maga addresses a wide variety of aggressive acts which include punches, kicks, chokes, bearhugs, headlocks, grabs, as well as defenses against multiple attackers and assailants armed with a firearm, edged weapon, or blunt object.

Krav Maga training stresses the ability to react when surprised. Techniques and training methods emphasize the ability to function from a poor state of readiness, and to move from a passive to aggressive state immediately in order to fight back and survive. Training methods teach students to react effectively under stress and to move efficiently from a position of disadvantage to a position of advantage.

In addition to self-defense, Krav Maga teaches hand to hand combat. This is a more advanced and sophisticated phase, and shows how to neutralize an opponent quickly and effectively. It embodies elements related to the actual performance of the fight including tactics, feints, powerful combinations of different attacks, the psychological dimensions of the fight, and learning how to use the environment to your advantage.

Krav Maga includes specialized training methods to not only challenge students physically, but to also instill a special mental discipline meant to strengthen the spirit and to develop the ability to deal with violent confrontations under intense stress. Classes will also incorporate the self-defense techniques that they teach to law enforcement personnel.

Because of the Krav Maga's combat-orientation, there are no competitions or tournaments. Like other arts, Krav Maga issues colored belts to mark higher levels of expertise.

PrincessRAR
01-15-2005, 08:14 PM
Australian infantry soldiers are now taught some basic hand to hand combat at singleton by some USMC instructors.

There were some sub-unit courses awhile ago where you could enrol to take it.

Also they used to teach advanced hand to hand combat in the SASR, but that is now not taught due to high competitive spirit leading to injuries.

But we have nothing compared do the IDF

Death Touch
01-16-2005, 03:06 AM
As far as styles go I believe most Military units have realized there is no traditional Martial Art "style" that has it all. By traditional I mean something "classical". Shaolin Kung Fu, Aikido, etc.
However, most TRUE martial arts that are effective in most ranges have plenty of things to offer. Just not in one neat, little package. Military units have realized this and usually test out different methods and systems. These systems are reviewd by their H2H instructors. After meeting certain requirements then they may include these new techniques (not "styles") into their unarmed combat program. While there are a few countries whose military units practice their national martial art (North and South Korea, PRC, Phillipines, Thailand, etc) the U.S military (in particular Special Warfare units) tend to stay away from a particular "style" and only take what they feel ,after careful review, what suits their needs. Their unarmed combat program is usually reviewed and upgraded when necessary and periodically. In fact, many top martial art instructors are usually invited by the US military to train their H2H instructors. These instructors then decide if what is taught is material they feel is highly effective and easily taught to others.
Krav Maga is a good fighting system because it has included a vast repertoire of techniques from many different martial arts into a manageable, comprehensive program.
I would suggest you look at JunFan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do,Filipino Kali/Escrima and the Filipino unarmed combat systems(Pangamut, Dumog, Silat, Panantukan), Indonesian Penjak Silat, Muay Thai (Ler Drit-Military Muay Thai, Krabi Krabong), and any Mixed Grappling program by qualified instructors. By reading up and informing yourself you enhance your learning process and creativity. Not to mention the education you receive by realizing that there is so much out there and it exists in ALL parts of the world. You will also realize (hopefully) that the above is standard instruction for those in the JKD world. I would also suggest that you look up anything on Tony Blauer who is a true innovator today.
The idea is to educate oneself as completely as possible. To never be closed minded. To understand and attempt to superced one's limitation's.To understand that ALL arts exist in each other. That there is no such thing as style. There is self expression.
There is no such thing as a BEST art. There is only well roundedness.

This is your responsibility.

Tally Man
01-16-2005, 02:14 PM
I agree there is no one best form of hand to hand combat it is all dependant on the situation. I do feel that the US Military should teach more than what they do; I don’t think that basic bayonet training for infantry troops is good enough. The 75th Rangers do some training but it is never in-depth as other countries. The ROK military trains hard at Tai Kwan do and so do the Thai Rangers in kicking boxing, although it is more for PT than actual combat.
There is a mildly amusing book called Angry White Pajamas (found in martial arts sections of bookstores) that details this guy’s one year black belt course training in Yoshinkan Aikido with the riot police in Tokyo. It is more a sarcastic look at training although it has some good stories as well.

Thanks for the input!

Jedburgh
01-16-2005, 02:22 PM
US Army Field Manual 3-25.150 Combatives (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/)

You can find the USMC manual here (https://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/htm/doc4.htm), but access is restricted.

Tally Man
01-16-2005, 03:46 PM
I have attended a couple of seminars for the SEAL H2H it was a good sytem but I felt that it wasn't as well rounded as Krav Maga which has ground fight, but at least the teams are exploring new ground in H2H. I have a couple east coast team buddies that study Thai kick-boxing after work because they felt that it was a great form of H2H and a great work out.

b33f
01-16-2005, 06:00 PM
It was developed in a hostile environment in which combatants could not devote many hours to hand to hand combat training

how long would you say does an individual require to acquire a sturdy basis of Krav Maga (from a qualified instructor)?

Tally Man
01-16-2005, 09:12 PM
Not sure I know most instructors have a lot of other martial arts experiance because most schools are not pure Krav Maga. I have been doing it for 2 years and it took me around 6 months to really know the basics now it is just sparring and perfecting what I have learned but I think that is true for most arts. This is really my first stricking martial art most of my experiance is with ground fighting so every thing is kind of new, but with some one with a striking back ground they would probably pick it up faster. I do know that in order to be an instructor you have to attend school down in L.A. cailifornia; I hope I have been some kind of help.

MEGR
01-16-2005, 11:00 PM
I saw pic of Ken Shamrock (Legendary UFC fighter) training US Marines in what I think is submission fighting which won him a ton of fights in the UFC.

[AFSOC]
01-17-2005, 01:58 AM
look up and LEARN

CQC close quarter combat...

its the basics of fighting, most efficient.

i recommend reading the US MARINE CORPS CQC manuel....real good and graphic

ie.. in one part it says "crawl up to your enemy and drive your knife in between his groin and **** area, then pull foward"

:lol:

ogukuo72
01-17-2005, 04:03 AM
Let's distinguish between martial arts and hand to hand fighting system. I don't think you can call the latter martial arts unless there is an element of philosophy of life and spiritual growth built into it.

Tally Man
01-17-2005, 12:03 PM
The USMC has been trying to perfect a H2H system for a while now; Ken Shamrock is s shoot fighter which is a system from Japan. I have been to his brother's school in San Jose california which he has gone away from shoot fighting to more kick boxing and BJJ which I feel is a better system. What Ken is teaching the USMC is ground fighting which I think is lacking in a lot of militray training. The US Army H2H is very old and is almost all Hapkido and Judo the Army is very behind the other services.

OldRecon
01-17-2005, 12:20 PM
Well, the Russians have had Sambo for quite a while :roll:.
Personaly I've a taste for the deceptive nature of Brazilian Capoeiro, though it's perhaps a bit too stylistic for practicable military use.
Think I remember a slogan like "aim for the knees" :lol: or something like that during my own days (though we did not receive any formal lessons in "unarmed combat").

11F5S
01-17-2005, 01:45 PM
I have always been a proponent of Gun Fu and when that fails Run Fu. :)

[AFSOC]
01-17-2005, 02:13 PM
The USMC has been trying to perfect a H2H system for a while now; Ken Shamrock is s shoot fighter which is a system from Japan. I have been to his brother's school in San Jose california which he has gone away from shoot fighting to more kick boxing and BJJ which I feel is a better system. What Ken is teaching the USMC is ground fighting which I think is lacking in a lot of militray training. The US Army H2H is very old and is almost all Hapkido and Judo the Army is very behind the other services.

huh?

USMC, US ARMY both have CQC....

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/CQC_at_West_Point/aac.jpg

thats at West Point...

Vivelamorte
01-17-2005, 02:19 PM
Well, the Russians have had Sambo for quite a while :roll:.
Personaly I've a taste for the deceptive nature of Brazilian Capoeiro, though it's perhaps a bit too stylistic for practicable military use.
Think I remember a slogan like "aim for the knees" :lol: or something like that during my own days (though we did not receive any formal lessons in "unarmed combat").

Capoeira isn't useful for hand to hand combat. Try an artistic kick against a seasoned fighter and you'll never walk properly again.

Anyway, I'm currently boxing, which is great, also due to the overall intensity of training. The German KSK trains WingTsun, which is a very effective combat system, at least in some regards.

I'd try knife skills like Arnis or Kali, kickboxing, MMA (mixed martial arts). Always go for the parts of the body which hurt most. Someone choking you from the front? Gorge one of his eyes out! Punch against his throat! Twist out whilst grabbing his hand, pull the arm, and break his elbow. Stuff like that.

Tally Man
01-17-2005, 02:53 PM
The best martial art is Ching, Ching, Pow!

The sound of a shot. :D

Tally Man
01-17-2005, 03:23 PM
Talking to buddies that are ring knockers they have a couple of martial arts at the Point but they take it up as a sport not for training since every cadet needs to take one sport for the school year.

Laconian
01-17-2005, 05:38 PM
When I was in the Army('84-'89), it was very difficult to dedicate training time to H2H. Given the BN, CO, PLT & SQD METL's training (field) time was always at a premium and if you wanted, as a jr ldr, to train your element in something like that it was hard to get the chain of command to bite off on it. Plus, I wasn't trained as an infantry officer to instruct in it, so you were left working from the old combatives manual. Again, that was MY experience in a mech inf unit. None of my buddies in the 82nd or 75th ever mentioned how much time they spent on it.

I have trained in Krav Maga & it is an OK system. I think there are much simpler techniques for a variety of situations. If it takes 6 months to learn the basics, that is too complicated and you will not recall complicated techniques under stress, unless you train them constantly.

IMHO submission grappling is good sport and good for conditioning, but it is impractical for real fighting on the ground. I have had seminars with a MMA coach who himself was a champion fighter. He showed us a bunch of really cool stuff, until we put a vest, belt w/drop leg holster, mag pouches, baton, Kevlar helmet and boots on him and then he realized it wasn't all fun&games. Besides, after I put you in an ankle lock or arm bar, what do I do then? In order to cuff you, I have to have another guy or I have to let you go and start all over again...

Tally Man
01-17-2005, 06:41 PM
I used it at Air Force SERE school at Fairchild during the Resistance Training phase when I was caught. I also used it during snatch and grab training but none of this was under fire.

I guess the old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight" can really fit in modern combat.

Tally Man
01-17-2005, 08:27 PM
Buddy of mine at Benning sent me this link of course you can't view any of the PDF pages but looks like FM 21-150 was last updated in 1992 but from what I see they have updated the content since. The content under the link is from the first issue back in 1942 sorry for such a long message maybe some might be intrested seems like the military back then focused on H2H in the pacific.

http://www-benning.army.mil/usapfs/Regs%20and%20Policy%20Documents/FM%2021-150.pdf

FM 21-150, Unarmed Defense for the American Soldier, June 30, 1942, Section I, General

Editor's notes by Joseph R. Svinth. Text provided by Mike Belzer. Copyright © EJMAS 2000.




Basic Field Manual

Unarmed Defense for the American Soldier

War Department,
Washington, June 30, 1942.

FM 21-150, Unarmed Defense for the American Soldier, is published for the information and guidance of all concerned.
BY ORDER OF THE SECRETARY OF WAR:

G.C. MARSHALL,
Chief of Staff

TABLE OF CONTENTS
General
Basic principles.
Wrist escapes.
Escapes from body holds.
Defenses against choke holds.
Defenses against kicks.
Taking prisoners.
Defenses against knife and sword.
Defenses against blows with club, and technique of club.
Defenses against pistol.
Defenses against rifle.
Defenses against wrestling holds
Defenses against grips on garments or hair.
Defenses against fist attacks.
Incapacitating an opponent.
Section I
General

1. SCOPE. -- This manual describes a method of self-protection available to the American soldier, if through any circumstance he is unarmed or unable to use his weapons.

2. PURPOSE OF TRAINING. -- The object of this training is to develop the soldier in the art of unarmed self-defense, and to improve his skill in the use of his basic weapons, through speeded reflexes. Confidence in his own ability unarmed, like confidence in his weapons, makes a man a better soldier.

3. NECESSITY FOR TRAINING IN UNARMED DEFENSE. -- The average soldier, if trained only in the use of his weapons, loses his effectiveness if these weapons are lost or fail to function. However, particularly in hand-to-hand fighting, if a soldier should be deprived of his weapon or have it destroyed, he is at the mercy of the enemy. This appears to apply mainly to the Infantry, and probably the greatest value of American unarmed defense will be to that arm. Nevertheless, in these days of fluid warfare, troops in rear echelons, artillery, and antitank units might find themselves in hand-to-hand combat with no defensive weapons except sidearms and bare hands.



4. TRAINING PROGRAM. -- The training of the soldier in unarmed defense requires no special equipment or uniform. Clothing will depend upon the season of the year and the state of the weather. Work outdoors is preferable since a greater number of men can be trained simultaneously. Thirty minutes' instruction or practice each day will make a man adept in a very short period of time. If no additional time is available, this part of the training can be integrated into the physical training program. It is desirable, in order to obtain the maximum results, that the instruction follow closely the steps outlined in this manual. However, it is realized that all units will not have the time to go through the entire book. For units with a limited time allotment for this subject, it is recommended that the following be taught:

a. Section II. -- Principles of unarmed defense.

b. Section III.

One escape from underarm front body hold.
One escape from front overarm body hold.
One escape from rear underarm body hold
c. Section V.
One escape from two-handed front choke.
One escape from two-handed rear choke. One escape from one-arm rear strangle.
One defense for downward stroke of knife.
d. Section VIII.
One defense for upward stroke of knife.
One defense for downward sword cut.
One defense for sword lunge.
e. Section IX.
One defense for downward blow of club.
One defense for side blow of club.
One defense for reverse stroke of club.
f. Section X.
One defense for pistol in front, right or left hand.
One defense for pistol in back, right or left hand.
g. Section XI. -- Complete section.
For military police units with limited time, it is recommended that in addition to the above, sections VI, VIII, IX, X, XII, and XIV be practiced in their entirety.

5. BACKGROUND OF UNARMED DEFENSE. -- The original name of the method described in this manual has been lost in antiquity, but the art was developed by Chinese monks approximately in the twelfth century. The monastic rules forbade the monks to use weapons, but as they were constantly attacked by nomads and robber bands, they had to devise a weaponless defense, utilizing only the skill of their bodies and the quickness of their brains. Through long experiment, trial and error, and loss of life they developed a means of defense that has remained basically unchanged through centuries. Late in the twelfth century, the Japanese became aware of this art and, characteristically, they copied it and claimed it as their own. They named this art "Jiu Jitsu," and established a genealogy for it which they claimed extended back to their mythological age. The Jiu means "gentle" and Jitsu means "art" or "practice." Therefore Jiu Jitsu is "the gentle art." The systems taught were multitudinous and varied until the year 1882 when Professor Jigoro Kano, a man who had studied all the better systems, established the Kodokan, "a school for studying the way" and called his system "Judo." This name means "the way, or principle." This school, with its roots n Tokyo, sent out branches throughout the civilized world. One branch, founded in 1921, had its headquarters in New York. It was called "The New York Dojo," and while catering mainly to Japanese, admitted Occidentals who were interested. [EN1] However, progress of the Occidentals was slow, due to the fact that their instruction was mainly in competitive work. The holds were ineffective because the correct principles were not taught. Very little of the defensive or protective tactics was taught. Since this was the type of Judo in which the average American was interested, he soon dropped out of the school. A group of young Americans, disgusted with this procedure, set out to develop a system of self-defense suited to the American temperament and needs. They called their organization "The American Judo Club" and dedicated themselves to removing Oriental terminology from the new system. [EN2] They produced as good a system as the Japanese and far out*****ped it in the effectiveness of method. With a knowledge of American unarmed defense the American soldier will be equipped to meet the Judo men in the game which they have chosen to claim as their own. [EN3]

6. METHODS OF TRAINING.

a. Regulation physical training formations may be used for practice (see FM 21-20.) From the extended formation of four columns have the first and second columns face each other and the third and the fourth columns face each other. Each man will then have a partner with whom to practice. Special note should be taken that the even-numbered men do not uncover. The above formation applies to a unit the size of a platoon or larger. Any unit smaller than a platoon should be formed in a column of twos and then have the columns face each other. It is recommended that when working throwing tricks, twice the normal distance be taken. [E.g., two arms distance between men rather than one.]

b. The instructor will explain the attack and demonstrate the proper defense on a competent assistant, executing the movement rapidly to show its effectiveness. The defense is then executed again, as near slow motion as possible with an accompanying explanation. The attacking squads and the opposing defending squads are then designated, possibly using the letter "a" for attackers and letter "b" for defenders. At a given signal the attackers move to the attack and the defenders attempt to work the proper defense while the assistant instructors make corrections. Emphasis should be placed on precision first. Speed can be developed later. [Italics added.] Most of the defenses are equally effective on either side. When two defending squads have mastered the defense, the situation is reversed and the defending squads become attackers. Progress to a new trick is made only when the students have demonstrated a working knowledge of the previous one. No more than three tricks should be taught in any 30-minute period, as confusion would result. Encourage the men to practice in their spare time, emphasizing that proficiency in unarmed defense is predicated on repetition until a movement becomes almost instinctive. It is not difficult to arouse the interest of the men in this subject, since the desire to excel physically is a characteristic of the average American. [EN4] Since even the smallest can be shown that his lack of size is no handicap, there will be no difficulty arising from indifference. The main problem will be to keep enthusiasts from trying more tricks than they can possibly assimilate. [Italics added.] Another point that should be emphasized is the desirability of eliminating the stigma of the so-called "foul tactic" which is usually ascribed to unarmed defense. It might be well to point out that an individual who attacks with a club, knife, gun, or any other weapon is not subscribing to any recognized rules of combat. In hand-to-hand combat, there are no referees, no judges, and no timekeeper. You are on your own. No measure of defense is too extreme when your life is in danger. The defenses in this manual might be the means of saving your life or the life of a comrade.



Editor's Notes.

EN1. Tsunejiro Tomita, who had been Kano's first training partner in 1882, and a younger judoka named Maeda operated a judo club at 1947 Broadway in 1905. "It is part of the system of judo to smile while we are at practice," Tomita told a reporter for the New York World in April 1905. Around 1908 Maeda left New York to become a professional wrestler (Gracie jujitsu is the result of his teachings in Brazil), and Tomita returned to Japan in October 1910. In December 1912, while returning to Japan from the Olympics, Kano gave a demonstration of judo for New York sportswriters. Kano gave another demonstration in New York in December 1920, and the New York Times said that his partner was Ryoichi Taguchi. Taguchi spent most of the next decade in New York, so probably it was his dojo that was meant as being established in 1921. Men who trained there during the early 1930s included the professional wrestlers Taro Miyake and Oki Shikina. Kano revisited New York in July 1936 and 1938; in 1936, his training partner was T. Shozo Kuwashima and the New York Jiu-Jitsu Club located at 114 W. 48th Street. Of the 1936 demonstration, Seattle's Japanese-American Courier reported that "among the judoists were not a few Japanese and American women who have taken up the art."

EN2. What was meant was actually Henry Okazaki's American Jujitsu, or what is today known as Danzan Ryu jujutsu. A Hawaiian system influenced by Kodokan judo, Kito-ryu jujutsu, boxing, sumo, and even lua, students who contributed to the production of FM 21-150, June 1942, probably included Sig Kufferath. For more about Danzan Ryu jujutsu, see George Arrington's Danzan Ryu site http://www.danzan.com. http://www.danzan.com.

EN3. This sentiment was not universally shared, and in January 1943 John E. Tynan published an article about the US Army boxer Warren J. Clear defeating a judo man in a match held in 1924. So it wasn't until a Chicago judoka named Masato Tamura beat a professional wrestler in a private match in 1943 that the US military really began taking judo seriously. For details, see "Yank Meets Jap in Fight to Finish," Readers Digest, 42 (January 1943), 18-23, Joseph R. Svinth, "Amateur Boxing in Pre-World War II Japan: The Military Connection," http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm, and "Judo Battles Wrestling: Masato Tamura and Karl Pojello," Furyu, The Budo Journal, 3:2 (Summer/Autumn 1999), 30-36, 72.

EN4. Professor John D. Fair argues that during the 1930s and 1940s, the desire to excel physically was especially strong in second-generation ("hyphenated") Americans. See, for example, Muscletown USA: Bob Hoffman and the Manly Culture of York Barbell (University Park, PA: Pennsylvania State Universi

MEGR
01-17-2005, 08:38 PM
Well, the Russians have had Sambo for quite a while :roll:.
Personaly I've a taste for the deceptive nature of Brazilian Capoeiro, though it's perhaps a bit too stylistic for practicable military use.
Think I remember a slogan like "aim for the knees" :lol: or something like that during my own days (though we did not receive any formal lessons in "unarmed combat").

Nothing wrong with Sambo :) There are some great Sambo fighters out there!

Jedburgh
01-17-2005, 10:17 PM
Close Combat 101 (http://www.gutterfighting.org/closecombat.html)

Essential Texts, Articles, and Commentary on the Principles and Methods of Close Combat for Real World Self-Defense and Survival.

They actual have the entire text of Applegate's classic Kill or Get Killed available on PDF. Unfortunately, they only have excerpts of two of the other essentials, Styer's Cold Steel and Fairbairn's Get Tough!.

Apogee
01-18-2005, 02:23 PM
The USMC has been trying to perfect a H2H system for a while now; Ken Shamrock is s shoot fighter which is a system from Japan. I have been to his brother's school in San Jose california which he has gone away from shoot fighting to more kick boxing and BJJ which I feel is a better system. What Ken is teaching the USMC is ground fighting which I think is lacking in a lot of militray training. The US Army H2H is very old and is almost all Hapkido and Judo the Army is very behind the other services.


I've attended the US Army's CQC Level I school at Benning and I assure you its not hapkido or judo. Its primarily Brazilian Jujitsu.

One of the most important lessons I learned there was that CQC is always your weapon of least resport. Its better to kill the enemy with a rifle. If you don't have that, then a pistol is preferable, if you don't have that, then use a knife, and if you don't have that, use CQC.

Second, hand to hand combat is not usually to the death when performed in a military enviorment. You really only need to last long enough for your buddy with an M4 to show up and blast your opponent.

Lastly, that pic on the pervious page is my guys teaching Kali stick fighting to new cadets (incoming freshman) here at West Point 2 summers ago.

duck
01-18-2005, 03:16 PM
I assume you trained Jujitsu with "cold weapons" including your bayonet and rifle butt too. Anything is preferable to fighting empty handed. Repeating Ukemis in full gear with rifle in hand teaches you a lot about your body. ;)

Tally Man
01-18-2005, 04:02 PM
Good to know I better talk to my fellow O-3 and tell him things have changed at west point good work cadet!

Apogee
01-18-2005, 04:56 PM
I assume you trained Jujitsu with "cold weapons" including your bayonet and rifle butt too. Anything is preferable to fighting empty handed. Repeating Ukemis in full gear with rifle in hand teaches you a lot about your body. ;)

We teach the new freshman Kali stick fighting with 3-foot canes. Thats to simulate some type of blunt object. New cadets take an 8 hour course in basic hand to hand consepts. They also recieve training on bayonet fighting, culminating in the bayonet assault course.

Freshman year combat training consists of a half semester boxing class (which broke my nose).

After their freshman year, they attend cadet field training, where we taught them an 8-hour Kali Knife fighting course. They also recieve an 8 hour block on advanced ground fighting (mostly Judo and Jujitsui).

During sophmore year, cadets take a half semester course on jujuitsui ground fighting.

Tally Man
01-18-2005, 05:26 PM
That is good to hear the only type of H2H for the 10 years I have been in was at Ranger school and with the 75th. I am glad to hear that some 2nd Lts will be coming out of the Point with some fighting skills.

Good luck cadet so what will be your first branch will you put down in your fourth year?

Apogee
01-18-2005, 05:45 PM
I'm 128 days and counting from graduation. I've branched Infantry.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/jackal419/crossedrifles.jpg

Tally Man
01-18-2005, 05:57 PM
Good luck your basic course is fun try and get your Ranger school slot right before you make it to your first duty station makes things a lot easier.

Vivelamorte
01-19-2005, 08:58 AM
Well, the Russians have had Sambo for quite a while :roll:.
Personaly I've a taste for the deceptive nature of Brazilian Capoeiro, though it's perhaps a bit too stylistic for practicable military use.
Think I remember a slogan like "aim for the knees" :lol: or something like that during my own days (though we did not receive any formal lessons in "unarmed combat").

Nothing wrong with Sambo :) There are some great Sambo fighters out there!

Unfortuanately I haven't seen Sambo in action yet, but in Germany there's a Russian combat system called Systema which is being taught. Good against knife attacks, etc. etc.

Have a look at the videos here:

http://www.rma-systema.de/video/inh.html

Look for the videos which contain the word "messerangriff", that's knife attack.

Apart from that, here's a quite laughable website:

http://www.ecpo.net/

Yosy
01-19-2005, 11:15 AM
We teach the new freshman Kali stick fighting with 3-foot canes. Thats to simulate some type of blunt object. New cadets take an 8 hour course in basic hand to hand consepts. They also recieve training on bayonet fighting, culminating in the bayonet assault course.

Freshman year combat training consists of a half semester boxing class (which broke my nose).

After their freshman year, they attend cadet field training, where we taught them an 8-hour Kali Knife fighting course. They also recieve an 8 hour block on advanced ground fighting (mostly Judo and Jujitsui).

During sophmore year, cadets take a half semester course on jujuitsui ground fighting.


Nice one mate. I don't think I'll get that kind of fun on my Naval Academy, unless I choose the Marines Course (which I wont anyway).

shrek
01-19-2005, 11:18 PM
Ask JackMeoff, he's big into this stuff if i'm not mistaken!

Swedish_Marine
01-20-2005, 05:19 AM
The Swedish armed forces have selected Krav Maga as their CQC-system a few years ago, because it has been combat proven and very effective. I believe that every conscript receives an 80 hour training package, and some units reveive more.

Personally I have practiced Tae Kwon Do and Im a 1st degree black belt. I quit because of my conscription service. 6 months ago I picked up Krav Maga, and a few weeks ago I got into my first fight ever. The first thing that came to mind when the other guy started taking shots at me was to quickly kick him in the groin and punch him in the nose twice as soon as the threat presented itself. He never scored any hits. He thought that I was hitting on his girlfriend so he wanted to punch me for it. It cost him a broken nose and great humiliation. Conclusion: I rather rely on KM then on Tae Kwon Do, which i practiced for 10 years. I wouldnt rely on TKD because I don´t trust it to help me in a threatening situation.

ibstolidude
01-20-2005, 09:07 AM
@ BEO, - this made me think way back about old GP and his SCARs training. Now that is amusing!

Digital Marine
01-20-2005, 11:22 AM
Where can i find the USMC CQC manual? on the USMC.mil site it has a password on it... :(

USMC-Congbuster
01-20-2005, 03:38 PM
Marine Corps Martial Arts Program MCMAP

basically moves from all walks of martial arts that have been proven effective in combat

b33f
01-20-2005, 04:18 PM
Marine Corps Martial Arts Program MCMAP

basically moves from all walks of martial arts that have been proven effective in combat

i've read about it before, have you got any detailed specs/information.. that's open to the public?... i'm really interested..

KalleBalleSvartSk@lle
01-21-2005, 10:55 AM
Never trained any specific martial arts technique during my conscription time in the swedish air force.
We trained various stuff that worked while carrying equipment, as "that's what you'll be wearing".

Though this was some years ago, before everything was supposed to be peacekeeping and helping old ladies across the street.

TriggerPuller
01-21-2005, 12:28 PM
Close Combat 101 (http://www.gutterfighting.org/closecombat.html)

Essential Texts, Articles, and Commentary on the Principles and Methods of Close Combat for Real World Self-Defense and Survival.

They actual have the entire text of Applegate's classic Kill or Get Killed available on PDF. Unfortunately, they only have excerpts of two of the other essentials, Styer's Cold Steel and Fairbairn's Get Tough!.Best stuff(faibairn applegate) for Military combatives. Groung fighting BJJ and all that other sport orintated stuff is just crap. The Marines have the MCMAP program now. I would get more into detail but Iam off on a convoy!!

TP

HooyahCQB
01-21-2005, 02:13 PM
Krav Maga sounds like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Keep the best, discard the rest.

Tally Man
01-21-2005, 02:52 PM
Very close what I think is real cool they teach you how to use everyday objects as weapons, keys, phone, chair and it has been proven in the IDF.

Yosy
01-21-2005, 06:48 PM
IDF' special forces' krav maga is a bit tough : http://www.isayeret.com/kravmaga/ct.htm

SamDamon
01-21-2005, 07:41 PM
Well, the record has already been set straight on whether or not the U.S. Army is "lagging far behind" on Combatives instruction, so I will digress there.

Clearly anyone who posts here with the "best" H2H fighting style across the board is in error. There is no one best way... different circumstances require different methods. Even a Marine could figure that one out ;) . Krav M. is definitely effective, but can it be scaled down or escalated based on situational factors? I have limited knowledge of the style, but I am curious to know if KM can be made to conform with the ROE of a given operations area.

“Groung (sic) fighting BJJ and all that other sport orintated (sic) stuff is just crap.” – this statement appears to be made from a background of ignorance, (despite popularity in mixed martial arts competition, BJJ is not a sport), thus I can forgive TP.

Brazilian Ju-Jitsu has a great degree of flexibility, in that it can be as brutal or as (forgive this term) humanitarian as the fighter determines, thus being easily applied to ROE. However, as a US Army officer who is currently training in BJJ, I will be the first to admit there are shortcomings, primarily in the areas of defense against multiple attackers (Howsza Newspaper protest, Baghdad, March2004,-type situation), and if the ground surface is non-conducive to rolling around (raw sewage, broken glass, spilled battery acid or other dangerous chemical spill, etc.). Thus, even as a proponent of BJJ, I will admit that it is not a perfect solution.

…And nothing beats a nice burst of machine gun fire in a close fight.

TriggerPuller
01-21-2005, 07:53 PM
Well, the record has already been set straight on whether or not the U.S. Army is "lagging far behind" on Combatives instruction, so I will digress there.

Clearly anyone who posts here with the "best" H2H fighting style across the board is in error. There is no one best way... different circumstances require different methods. Even a Marine could figure that one out ;) . Krav M. is definitely effective, but can it be scaled down or escalated based on situational factors? I have limited knowledge of the style, but I am curious to know if KM can be made to conform with the ROE of a given operations area.

“Groung (sic) fighting BJJ and all that other sport orintated (sic) stuff is just crap.” – this statement appears to be made from a background of ignorance, (despite popularity in mixed martial arts competition, BJJ is not a sport), thus I can forgive TP.

Brazilian Ju-Jitsu has a great degree of flexibility, in that it can be as brutal or as (forgive this term) humanitarian as the fighter determines, thus being easily applied to ROE. However, as a US Army officer who is currently training in BJJ, I will be the first to admit there are shortcomings, primarily in the areas of defense against multiple attackers (Howsza Newspaper protest, Baghdad, March2004,-type situation), and if the ground surface is non-conducive to rolling around (raw sewage, broken glass, spilled battery acid or other dangerous chemical spill, etc.). Thus, even as a proponent of BJJ, I will admit that it is not a perfect solution.

…And nothing beats a nice burst of machine gun fire in a close fight. Yeah ignorant one try BJJ while in combat and a 120 lb ruck on your back.Totally worthless for the Military man. I have been training in Martial arts for over 30 years and in the Military and bodyguard work. Iam sure I have a little more insight what works in the field than you do!!!!!! BTW I have won the United States and Japanese Ju jitsu championships sponsored by the Kodokan of Japan!! Believe me you do not want to go to the ground in combat unless you are in the ****e shooting at Tangos.
I have also been teaching Filipino Martial arts(knives and sticks) for 15 years and hold a first level of the highest level in JKD under Danny Inosanto and Richard Bustillo. I have trained with Frank Cucci(ST6) Paul Vunak and Hoch Hocheim.
About 00001% of military guys ever use or have to use H2H in combat. You are out of rounds use your rifle poick up rocks sticks bottles,stick them in the eye with a 5.56 expended brass. Gross motor skills are what works when the adrenaline is pumping!!

TP

SamDamon
01-21-2005, 08:00 PM
TP,
If what you just typed is true (as a rule, I do not believe everything I read on the internet), then I will defer to your extensive experience. Clearly you are in fact a Subject Matter Expert in every sense of the word, and thus are not speaking from any semblance of an ignorant perspective.

Please accept my deference for my misjudgement.

-SD

TriggerPuller
01-21-2005, 08:21 PM
TP,
If what you just typed is true (as a rule, I do not believe everything I read on the internet), then I will defer to your extensive experience. Clearly you are in fact a Subject Matter Expert in every sense of the word, and thus are not speaking from any semblance of an ignorant perspective.

Please accept my deference for my misjudgement.

-SD You are a stand up guy and your misjudgemant is accepted. Iam pretty well known in the SoF community and have no reason to make up stories about anything. Iam in Mosul right now where the chances of me getting in a hand to gland altercation are pretty high. Iam running high risk PSD's in country! I say BJJ as sport orientated as opposed to Military combatives. I think it is all great and not one Martial artist should ever say one is better than the other but what is just best for themselves in a given situation. I know what works and what doesnt in the field but am always open minded to new techniques as long as they work! take care.

BTW what unit are you with?

TP

PS check out my photo album here

SamDamon
01-21-2005, 08:54 PM
Check your PM...

HooyahCQB
01-21-2005, 10:35 PM
Dude. TP. You trained under Inosanto? Please teach me, master :lol: I wish I could find a good JKD studio around this part of the country, but I wouldn't have time with college and the rowing team. Stay safe.

charlie
01-21-2005, 10:41 PM
Crush their balls and poke out their eyes with open hand strikes.

charlie
01-21-2005, 10:43 PM
Always wear one or two sharp double edged knives and learn how to draw, slash and stab like lightning.

Erik2a4
01-22-2005, 09:09 AM
I think the Army's BJJ combatives system works pretty well. Keep in mind that the only times we used it was when ROE didn't allow use of weapons...i.e., if a PUC isn't cooperating, you have to subdue him and regain control of the situation, flex-cuff, etc...you can't just give him a controlled pair and call it a day (that's a quick way to get a bad 15-6).

Anyone know of a Krav-maga instructor in NC?

Sayeret
01-22-2005, 11:23 AM
I've had several years of experience with a couple different martial arts. I've never tried Krav Maga, though, I'd like to but I for now learning more from jujitsu first.

Tally Man
01-22-2005, 12:24 PM
Schools located in NC.

North Carolina
Gastonia
Ryan Hoover's Extreme Karate
3272 Union Road
Gastonia, NC 28056
Forestbrook Shopping Center
Tel: 704-867-4020
Web www.rhek.com
Havelock
ATA BLACK BELT ACADEMY
(Next to Rose Bros. furniture)
404 W. Main St.
Havelock, NC 28532
Tel: 252-447-1000

New Bern
ATA Black Belt Academy
(Next to the Village Butcher)
3515 Trent Rd., Suite 1
New Bern, NC 28562
Tel: 252-636-5425

atabrownnb@cconnect.net

Jack Mehoff
01-22-2005, 12:33 PM
This is where I train, best MA school I've ever been in.

http://www.ucombat.com/UCTC.asp

Tally Man
01-22-2005, 07:36 PM
Looks like a good school, I went to college in california and started doing mma at a place called The Pit which is where Chuck Liddell begain training at this was before he opened up SLO kick boxing.

There are a lot of good schools out there these days that have really improved on H2H with the popularity of Mixed Martial Arts.


List of a couple of schools I recommend on the West Coast I have attend all but Chuck's but I still try and make it down there once a year to have him beat the hell out of me!

:D

Good MMA School
http://www.slokickboxing.com/

Good kick boxing school
http://www.akakickbox.com

One of the first Krav Maga places besides L.A.
http://www.sdi-fremont.com/

Very good competion BJJ school not for the streets
http://www.claudiofrancabjj.com/

Magua
01-22-2005, 09:35 PM
Marine Corps Martial Arts Program MCMAP

basically moves from all walks of martial arts that have been proven effective in combat

i've read about it before, have you got any detailed specs/information.. that's open to the public?... i'm really interested..

https://www.tbs.usmc.mil/Pages/Martial_Arts/left.htm

Above link contains some info about MCMAP.

Tally Man
01-22-2005, 10:06 PM
The stalker training looks very interesting, thanks for the link.

SamDamon
02-15-2005, 07:31 PM
And after looking at TP's extensive photo album I am once again aware of what a mistake I made to think he was some inexperienced *******. Not a guy I EVER want to piss off!! :lol:

And how the f--- do all the spooky guys in the GZ get beer and we didnt get jack shyte in 9-Nissan???!!!

ViktorNavorski
02-16-2005, 12:39 AM
Is some form of knife fighting taught in any military?

Sayeret
02-16-2005, 01:26 AM
Is some form of knife fighting taught in any military?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/ch7.htm

Yosy
02-16-2005, 06:31 AM
Is some form of knife fighting taught in any military?

Around here yes. The Marines, Paras, Comandos (only with one m in here - they're the equal to the US Rangers. Nothing to do with the Royal Marines Commandos) and Special Operations all learn knife figthing. I think other units also learn it.

Apogee
02-16-2005, 07:25 AM
Is some form of knife fighting taught in any military?

We teach an 8 hour class on Kali knife fighting during CFT. It builds on the 8 hour block of instruction on Kali Stick Fighting learned during CBT.

johnnysix
02-16-2005, 02:08 PM
that's pretty interesting, i dont remember any knife fighting classes during beast or cft back at the point. times have changed, good to hear its expanded.

Para
02-17-2005, 01:46 PM
We where taught many ways of unarmed combat, but when you close you normally have your rifle and bayonet, if that gets broken then the next best thing was your trenching tool, it could part some hair right down to their chin.

<Gypsum Fantastic>
02-17-2005, 02:37 PM
We where taught many ways of unarmed combat, but when you close you normally have your rifle and bayonet, if that gets broken then the next best thing was your trenching tool, it could part some hair right down to their chin.

Ouch....

I saw a program about the SAS in WW2 and they used to use the German helmets to break their necks.

http://www.stainlesssteelstudios.com/images2/germansoldier1.jpg

They would approach from behind, push the back against the spine, reach around and pull the front back. "Like opening a can of coke".

I remenmber the Paras in Aldershot used to practice their "unarmed combat techiniques" outside mcdonalds on a friday night! ;)

Apogee
02-17-2005, 08:27 PM
that's pretty interesting, i dont remember any knife fighting classes during beast or cft back at the point. times have changed, good to hear its expanded.

That stuff was new for the summer of '03. I posted some pictures of it in the personal albums.