View Full Version : 1 year passed since Alpha stormed Nord-Ost musical building
Kingpin
10-24-2003, 05:32 AM
Short video about consequences (11MBytes).
http://terror99.ru/shturm_sts.avi
HBO documentary, which premiered last evening and included video shot by both the Chechens and Russians, was excellent. HBO usually airs its programs several times, so if you missed it, I'm sure it'll be on again soon.
khukuri
10-24-2003, 01:09 PM
The thing that bluffed me was how lucky the russians were. I saw a documentary about it. The gas didnt take effect fast enough. The chechens could have chosen to blow the whole thing up, but they did not.
You could smell the gas. Thats why they started to shoot the windows so that air could come in, but with no affect.
He219
10-24-2003, 02:57 PM
http://www.ocregister.com/commentary/shelton/images/cartoon_20021030.gif
:P
ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
10-24-2003, 08:44 PM
nice cartoon..but i think everyone was lucky it could have been much much much worse
Dmitri
10-24-2003, 09:08 PM
The thing that bluffed me was how lucky the russians were. I saw a documentary about it. The gas didnt take effect fast enough. Ok, some people bitch about how fast the gas worked and killed people, now its how slow... :slap:
You could smell the gas. When you smell the gas, it's too late, brother.
The chechens could have chosen to blow the whole thing up, but they did not.
and who's fault is that? maybe they didn't have time? and you know, when a strong drug mellows you out, you don't act as fast, takes more time to do anything.
So the way you all you bashers see it is that gas killed many hostages, but the luck is what made the operation a success. BRAVO! :cantbeli:
How many hostages were there and how many died?
Over 300 in total, 129 died. They mentioned that there was a high probability that most of them died because they weren't injected with the antidote fast enough. There wasn't nearly enough medical care available immediately after they went in. The whole thing was pretty sad.
171 people died... including the hostage takers. According to that doco 129 hostages and people died (presumably including a drunk woman that walked in the front door after the theatre had been taken).
Over 900 hostages were taken originally.
Many died after the attack because they were laid out on their backs, and choked on their vomit or swallowed their tongues.
ArmedPacifist
10-25-2003, 12:39 AM
They gassed their own people sure, but you have to hand it to the Russians, they know how to handle terrorism.
Well even in the best of terms it sounds like only a mediocre success. I understand that I was not there and many other factors probably played a role in their decision making but nearly 200 people died and that is unacceptable. I remember reading that an opiate based gas was used and many of the people had nervous reactions to it which is why they died. Its over and done with and theres really not much use here criticizing but why didnt they use commandos to raid the building? Also, they knew there were hundreds of people inside so why couldnt they be prepared to medically treat everybody?
They gassed their own people sure, but you have to hand it to the Russians, they know how to handle terrorism.
Just curious, how do you come to that conclusion?
Sabre
10-25-2003, 07:52 AM
The gas used was based on an opiate called fentanyl. It's about 80 times as potent as morphine, although there are stronger versions (Carfentanil is about 10,000 times as potent and is used to immobilise large animals in vetinary practice)
The main problems with the gas were that there was a wide variety of people in the theatre (old and young, sick and well) and such a large volume to disperse it in. They had to be sure that they would perfuse the whole complex and incapacitate the terrorists. I'm sure that they realised some people would die from it.
But what can you do? i think it was the best option. If they stormed it 'a la' Iranian embassy, everyone would die, including the spetsnaz. I really doubt that the chechens would listen to reason, once their deadline/patience had run out they would have blown themselves up.
The main criticism I have is of the Soviet-style secrecy. I realise they couldn't start telling the hospitals exactly what they were about to do but some preparation either from the hospitals or military medics should have been made.
Most people died from being carried out of the theatre and put on buses with unsupported airways. They should have prepped about 500 stretchers/backboards and artificial airways ready for use. But then, you'd need a hell of a lot of paramedics. That's difficult to do.
It is clear that a better emergency services disaster protocol is needed in russia, and I think they are developing one.
Russian Texan
10-25-2003, 08:02 AM
They didn't use commandos because of 50 heavily armed terrorists and 19 of them were suicide bombers positioned among the hostages plus the whole building was wired with explsosives. So if the Special forces went in and started a firefight the bodycount definately be much hire. I know it doesn't sound right but given the circumstances it was a successfull operation, ofcourse those who lost their loved ones would have a different opinion but 700+ are still alive and 129 + 50 terrorists are dead. And from what I have read, SF community around the world says that Russians done a great job and want that gas recepie for themselves.
Herrmannek
10-25-2003, 08:30 AM
I'm curios if there is country with enough strong/good and synhcronised entry squads to take over large building with 50 armed/wired/****y traped terrorist and 700+ hostages without major casulties & without use of gas. I'm curious b/c there is no chance to make/design/invent safe&sure anestestic gase in near future(opinion taken from Scientific American:Polish "Printed" Edition).
Same question in different way
What is optimal number of SWAT men you need to take care of One Terrorist, if the amount of hostages changes this ratio? Is there is one enough big team to perform such action(50+bad guys,700+hostages) without need for use of joined teams or chemicals(with even if used in USA would kill many people)?
no offence, but actually they didn't do such a bad job at all...
130 out of 700 makes less than 20%...did u know the english in 1980 estimated a 50% casualty rate? luckily, it turned out better for them, but hey...they weren't up against such odds... so the whole gas thing wasn't all that bad. the only thing u cud blame the russians off is the bad handling of the aftermath...too bad they screwed that up, otherwise it wud have gone in the historybooks as one of the best CT efforts ever.
Maciek
10-25-2003, 09:33 AM
And now they will be in historybooks as one of the controversial CT efforts ever
170,130 whatever the number is is A LOT of people and you shouldnt try to minimize the loss by comparing it to the 700 total. Although the situation did not have as many odds, one could argue that the SAS are trained much better than Spetsnaz. Why couldnt they have used a different gas that wouldnt have killed so many? The most important point of all is how they lacked enough medical support when they knew what they were about to do and the possible need for medical attention from all of those people. If that had happened in America it would have never been excused and the media would be all over it if those people simply died because of a lack of medical help. Perhap a different gas should have been used if available, but it sounds like they chose the better option and the Spetsnaz did do a "good" job but my gripe is still with the medical people or lack thereof.
The problem is that it's still a communist state. They're always so paranoid about any information getting out, even if it'll help their own people, that they only were willing to have a few medical personnel on hand so that word about what they were going to do wouldn't get out. Russia's actions are and have always been, the perceived good for the government no matter what the human cost. It comes back to bite them in the rear time every time and they never learn.
Uncle Chô
10-25-2003, 01:10 PM
You said it all, Hood.
170,130 whatever the number is is A LOT of people and you shouldnt try to minimize the loss by comparing it to the 700 total. Although the situation did not have as many odds, one could argue that the SAS are trained much better than Spetsnaz. Why couldnt they have used a different gas that wouldnt have killed so many? The most important point of all is how they lacked enough medical support when they knew what they were about to do and the possible need for medical attention from all of those people. If that had happened in America it would have never been excused and the media would be all over it if those people simply died because of a lack of medical help. Perhap a different gas should have been used if available, but it sounds like they chose the better option and the Spetsnaz did do a "good" job but my gripe is still with the medical people or lack thereof.
comparing the SAS with specnaz is rather hard imo since we don't really know much about just 'how good they are'... now about a different gas; i doubt if they had much choice on this...and the whole 'medical-backup' imo can't be blamed on alpha...they did their jobs...too bad someone else ****ed up on the medical side afthermath side of things..
Russian Texan
10-25-2003, 08:00 PM
Alfa is not spetsnaz it is CT unit. The structure, tasks, tactics, training, etc. of the spetsnaz is completely different from anything in the west, it's like comparing apples to oranges. To all the teenagers on this board who were raised and educated according to CNN and hollywood action movies: Spetsnaz is an offensive weapon and is designed to kill, capture, recon, storm, destroy, etc. but not to rescue hostages, that what CT units like Alfa, Vympel and Vega are for. :bash:
Westen media due to the lack of knowledge refers to any russian SF as spetsnaz.
When I look at SAS, I see universal team that can be used in the wide variety of missions. Russian SF are different, Vega has nothing in common with spesnaz VDV, Alfa has nothing in common with spetsnaz GRU and so on. As far as comparing SF from different countries, it is simply impossible unless you can put them through the same mission with the same weapons, at the same time of day and year, against the same number of opponents, otherwise it's like saying that my Lexus is better than my neighbors SUV.
Dmitri
10-25-2003, 08:18 PM
Exactly. Normal spetsnaz can be compared to Rangers, but would you really send rangers to on such an operation and would you compare rangers to sas??? Alfa is made up ONLY of officers, and because they are so secret, no one will ever know their true strength.
What is optimal number of SWAT men you need to take care of One Terrorist, if the amount of hostages changes this ratio? Is there is one enough big team to perform such action
you have to remember there were not so many entries to go in there, and there is no windows, and having a croud at those entries would be even worse. I'm sure not the whole Alfa went in, and there were Vega out there waiting too, but numbers are not the key here.
The problem is that it's still a communist stateC'mon man, you can't be serious about this rofl
"Although the situation did not have as many odds, one could argue that the SAS are trained much better than Spetsnaz."
And what evidence do you have to support this statement?
"Why couldnt they have used a different gas that wouldnt have killed so many?"
If they had a better type of gas they would have used it.
"The most important point of all is how they lacked enough medical support when they knew what they were about to do and the possible need for medical attention from all of those people."
Priority 1 was kill the terrs. That was their only mistake.
"If that had happened in America it would have never been excused and the media would be all over it if those people simply died because of a lack of medical help."
What about burning women and children to death in Waco?
"The problem is that it's still a communist state."
No, it isn't.
"They're always so paranoid about any information getting out, even if it'll help their own people, that they only were willing to have a few medical personnel on hand so that word about what they were going to do wouldn't get out."
Without surprise it wouldn't have worked and everyone might have been killed.
"Russia's actions are and have always been, the perceived good for the government no matter what the human cost. It comes back to bite them in the rear time every time and they never learn."
Yes, it is the Russian government that is responsible for the deaths, those innocent terrorists had nothing at all to do with what happened.
Spetsnaz is an offensive weapon and is designed to kill, capture, recon, storm, destroy, etc. but not to rescue hostages, that what CT units like Alfa, Vympel and Vega are for.
Exactly. Spetsnaz, or more accurately GRU Spetsnaz (GRU being Soviet Military Intelligence) is largely tasked with work behind enemy lines... ambushes, engaging enemy nuclear forces, taking out government ministers etc etc.
Alpha have far more experience in hostage situations than the SAS or any other force except possibly the Israelis. Every other day in the FSU someone was hijacking buses, planes, and boats and it was Alpha that solved the problem.
And what evidence do you have to support this statement?
What evidence do you have to disprove it? I admit I do not know a great deal about Spetsnaz and I am most certainly not saying they are not any good or that this was their fault but the British have been doing CT work longer than most everybody except the Israelis.
If they had a better type of gas they would have used it.
You mean to tell me that the only available gas they had to choose from is such a lethal one?
Priority 1 was kill the terrs. That was their only mistake.
Terrorists dead, bravo. Nearly 200 out of 900 or so hostages dead and the terrorists technically were not the ones who killed the hostages. Although please dont misunderstand that I am somehow taking up for them because they put them in the situation, but it was the government that actually used the gas knowing the consequences and failing to supply adequate medical attention to the victims.
What about burning women and children to death in Waco?
Obviously you do not know what happened there. Firstly, David Koresh lead a religious cult essentially the Christian equivalent to Islamic extremists. To get to the point, it was a mass suicide and arson experts have proved it and furthermore three fires were started simultaneously on three different parts of the compound which is highly unlikely to be natural. The US government agents used CS gas. Something that autopsy reports also proved that the gas caused no fatalities amongst the Davidians including the children. Bottom line is the cult fired the first shots and eventually committed a mass suicide.
Furthermore, even if (which it most certainly was not) Waco was at the complete fault of the US government, that in no way justifies such acts by anybody else.
Without surprise it wouldn't have worked and everyone might have been killed.
If the suicide bombers saw all the medical equipment show up for hundreds of people, wouldnt it be logical that it would seem that the government just wants to be prepared to deal with casualties incase they did decide to blow themselves up? Do you really believe that the terrorists would know that a gas was going to be used ahead of time just because a lot of medical support showed up?
Yes, it is the Russian government that is responsible for the deaths, those innocent terrorists had nothing at all to do with what happened.
Technically, it was the Russian government that killed those people but the fault was at the terrorists for putting them in such a situation.
Saranof
10-26-2003, 05:47 AM
The point is, they didn't know it was lethal, or at least THAT lethal.
Alpha probly would have done the job, if they had used the right portions of gas. Turns out they didn't.
"The problem is that it's still a communist state."
No, it isn't.
Did I fall asleep for 50 years and wake up ignorant? What are you talking about that it's not a communist state??
He219
10-26-2003, 11:39 AM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031026/capt.sge.swq51.261003094233.photo03.default-270x384.jpg
Trucks carry stones to Zapadnaya mine near the town of Novoshakhtinsk, southern Russia, where rescuers have brought most of the 46 trapped miners to the surface(AFP/Alexander Blotnitsky)
They just forgot to take the Red Stars down. ;)
Were are seeing the process of democraticization in the former Stalinist State, and are still experiencing the vestages of a totalitarian regieme.
:)
Russian Texan
10-26-2003, 12:00 PM
Democracy will never work in Russia because of the society's mentality. Russians are just different in so many ways, it's like a different planet over there. Anyhow, what is wrong with communism? Do all of you people who bash it even know the basic principals of it, I don't think so. Do not pass a judgement about communism based on what you have seen in China and Russia. Russia was as much communist as America is a democracy. So please, if you don't know much about the subject just don't say anything and you might come across as a smart one.
America is not a democracy now? It just keeps getting better.
Communism is the optimal type of government in a perfect world. The world is not perfect, thus no communist state prospers like that of a democracy. It may be the best type of government for a certain people and if so, let it be. I just know that no communist country can economically match a strong democracy (US, Japan etc)
He219
10-26-2003, 01:40 PM
Communism is the optimal type of government in a perfect world.
Communism surpresses individual thought and aspiration for the security of the social order. It is definately not the 'Utopia' of a perfect world.
I agree that it may well be the best transition in countries like China and Russia for attaining equalities lost due to feudal domination in their past.
No political system can match the capabilities of independent thought.
Cheers!
:D
America is not a democracy now? It just keeps getting better.
No, the US is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC!! dOOAH ;)
well, on communism; let's just say the system in its original form (Marxism) is like a perfect system by itself...HOWEVER, mankind simply isn't fit to handle it, and everytime you even try to implement it it'll simply fail cus of the weaknesses of mankind. so i suppose it's best to say that marxism is more of a hypothetical utopia that never has any real chance to succeed with mankind...
Herrmannek
10-26-2003, 02:20 PM
America is not a democracy now? It just keeps getting better.
No, the US is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC!! dOOAH ;)
well, on communism; let's just say the system in its original form (Marxism) is like a perfect system by itself...HOWEVER, mankind simply isn't fit to handle it, and everytime you even try to implement it it'll simply fail cus of the weaknesses of mankind. so i suppose it's best to say that marxism is more of a hypothetical utopia that never has any real chance to succeed with mankind...
Comunism is maybe "butifull" idea, but only for ant colony :)
Dmitri
10-26-2003, 08:14 PM
Did I fall asleep for 50 years and wake up ignorant? What are you talking about that it's not a communist state??
With all due respect for you, you must be forgetting that Russia was democratic for more than 13 yrs now. I just don't see how you can call it a "communist state". :|
They just forgot to take the Red Stars down.
Yeah, that one star on some refinary really implies that the gov't is communist
Do you really believe that the terrorists would know that a gas was going to be used ahead of time just because a lot of medical support showed up?
If I was the terrorist, of course I wouldn't know that they would use the gas now, but for damn sure one would think that something decisive is about to happen, more than likely some kind of assault.
He219
10-26-2003, 08:41 PM
Dmitri, I clearly indicated that Russia and China are experiencing a transitional process. :D
Haiw, what you call the weaknesses of mankind not fit to handle communism is what I call individual thought and expression. It is the source of our greatest strength. The weakness of mankind is a pattern of violence and intollerance toward our fellow man. Communism is not immune from dictating and enforcing it's values on others through suppression. Marxism will always be too small for human imagination.
Good one, Herrmannek! :lol:
Vance
10-26-2003, 08:54 PM
America is not a democracy now? It just keeps getting better.
No, the US is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC!! dOOAH ;)
NO, it's a FEDERAL Republic! Jeez.
Kingpin
10-27-2003, 03:26 AM
Let me add my .02
The most radical view on situation here comes from those people who does not have good knowledge about this situation.
1. Gas was used not inside whole building. Only inside main auditorium.
About half of all terrorists (who didn't carried IEDs) were outside this auditorium and fired on Alpha (they used AK and grenades). This is about Alpha team training - all of them were killed without any casualties in storming forces. Moslty by headshots.
2. Anyone except governoment in Russia agreed that medical treatment after storming was awful and thus lead to many deaths.
2a. I can partially agree with Mr. Putin who stated that illness and weakness of many hostages leaded to their deaths. But I add "as long as bad organisation of medical help".
3. Russia is not a democracy. It is now more like police state, where you can express your opinion freely but only in case you don't chase ruling elite directly (i mean governoment. On the level of mayors there is a true democracy in many regions).
"What evidence do you have to disprove it? I admit I do not know a great deal about Spetsnaz and I am most certainly not saying they are not any good or that this was their fault but the British have been doing CT work longer than most everybody except the Israelis. "
First of all if you are going to say the SAS is better than the Spetsnaz then please be more specific. What type of spetsnaz are you talking about? You stated the SAS is better than Spetsnaz so you must be knowledgable about both groups, or are you just assuming.
In regard to the Moscow hostage drama then Spetsnaz actually probably means special purpose MVD (interior ministry troops) that did little more than stand around outside the building making sure that a van load of chechens didn't join the show, or a suicide bomber didn't attack during the attack on the terrs. There are plenty of chechens in Moscow that probably sympathised with the terrorists. The KGB (now FSB) Alpha team that carried out the attack has far more experience in hostage situations than the SAS has... there were weekly occurances of ex soldiers or other nutters kidnapping people or hijacking vehicles from cars and buses to aircraft and boats during communist times trying to get out of the country.
"You mean to tell me that the only available gas they had to choose from is such a lethal one?"
Lethal? The main auditorium was pumped full of the stuff and the hostages were inside for over an hour while the gas was in there. If they had been pumping nitrogen in there instead more would probably have died!!!
"Nearly 200 out of 900 or so hostages dead and the terrorists technically were not the ones who killed the hostages."
Can't you read? 129 hostages killed, the 171 figure included the terrs. At least 3 of the 129 were killed by the terrorists, so 126 died from other causes... out of over 900 hostages.
"but it was the government that actually used the gas knowing the consequences and failing to supply adequate medical attention to the victims. "
The government chose the best method to save as many hostages as they could. They didn't implement the final stages perfectly... perhaps like the US and UK etc when they invaded Iraq they did not focus on the people they were going in to save, but in the case of the moscow siege if they made a mistake they'd all be dead now.
"Obviously you do not know what happened there. Firstly, David Koresh lead a religious cult essentially the Christian equivalent to Islamic extremists. "
More like it was a complete **** up from the start. All they wanted Koresh for was a few minor firearms charges and the result of the rediculous handling was dozens of people being either shot or burned to death. If your ATF didn't act like it was some nazi army unit there probably wouldn't have been a problem.
"If the suicide bombers saw all the medical equipment show up for hundreds of people, wouldnt it be logical that it would seem that the government just wants to be prepared to deal with casualties incase they did decide to blow themselves up?"
Or it might be logical to the terrs that they are not going to negotiate and just storm the building... hense time to go to allah... bang. Instead they did it the way they thought was right and the Terrs went nap time and then didn't hear the phut of their brains being spread over the seat cushions.
"Do you really believe that the terrorists would know that a gas was going to be used ahead of time just because a lot of medical support showed up?"
No, I think thye would assume the soldiers were going to storm the building (like they did with the hospital in southern Russia) with high casualties on both sides... perhaps a good reason to go boom in the sick minds of the terrs.
"Technically, it was the Russian government that killed those people but the fault was at the terrorists for putting them in such a situation."
If the terrs didn't do what they did there would be no deaths at all. If the terrs had their way their would either have been another Russian withdrawl from Chechnia (not going to happen this way) or all of the hostages die an the terrs die.
I blame the Terrs, you can blame who you like.
"Did I fall asleep for 50 years and wake up ignorant? What are you talking about that it's not a communist state??"
Ummm, the fact that they have vote for their leader for the last 13 years makes it not a communist state of course.
"They just forgot to take the Red Stars down."
Of course... red stars make a make a country communist. I guess the American flag shows it is the most communist country in the world.
"Democracy will never work in Russia because of the society's mentality. Russians are just different in so many ways, it's like a different planet over there."
Democracy has never been tried in Russia. The last election more Russians voted than Americans voted in their elections. It is already more of a democracy than the US is.
"Communism is the optimal type of government in a perfect world."
Communism is not that much different than capitalism. Communism actually makes more sense in some circumstances. In the armed forces there is no voting or referendums. Really if you think about it when you buy a piece of land do you really own it? It has been there for hundreds of millions of years and will no doubt be there well after you are gone. People often do stupid things with the land they own. Clearing out trees to start farms and then are surprised when with the trees gone, the next flood washes all of their topsoil away... which blocks up the local rivers with silt and makes it flood every year instead of every 5 or so years in the past.
It is funny, it is capitalism that is driving the destruction of the rainforests... farms earn more money than bush, yet we in the west have already cut down our forests and earned enough money to have comfortable lives.
Anyway this thread is about the Moscow siege not all the problems of the world. Or comparisons of communism and capitalism.
"The world is not perfect, thus no communist state prospers like that of a democracy."
China seems to be doing much better than other asian countries and has been for the last decade or so.
"Communism surpresses individual thought and aspiration for the security of the social order. It is definately not the 'Utopia' of a perfect world. "
A utopian world would not need government, it would have a natural order.
Blanke
10-28-2003, 03:06 PM
First of all if you are going to say the SAS is better than the Spetsnaz then please be more specific. What type of spetsnaz are you talking about? You stated the SAS is better than Spetsnaz so you must be knowledgable about both groups, or are you just assuming.
No, he just said it could be argued that they are.
The KGB (now FSB) Alpha team that carried out the attack has far more experience in hostage situations than the SAS has... there were weekly occurances of ex soldiers or other nutters kidnapping people or hijacking vehicles from cars and buses to aircraft and boats during communist times trying to get out of the country.
Just the same you do not know how many rescues, not to mention the details of the rescues Alpha or the SAS has performed.
"Obviously you do not know what happened there. Firstly, David Koresh lead a religious cult essentially the Christian equivalent to Islamic extremists. "
More like it was a complete f*** up from the start. All they wanted Koresh for was a few minor firearms charges and the result of the rediculous handling was dozens of people being either shot or burned to death. If your ATF didn't act like it was some nazi army unit there probably wouldn't have been a problem.
I agree the ATF should have pursued a less agressive approach, especially since they were going after him with just warrants for illegal firearms. But please don't try to make the ATF or the Justice Dept. look like the bad guys here. You should really read up on what a monster Koresh was. For lack of a better term, he was fu*ked six ways from Sunday. I mean, if you gave Koresh a country to run (or should I say, rule) you got yourself another Hitler or Pol Pot. The book "No Heroes" by Danny Coulson, the founder of FBI HRT, I thought provided a fairly objective description of the whole Waco incident.
fokket
10-28-2003, 04:32 PM
How many or you guys do you realise that they were in THEATRE???
Herrmannek
10-28-2003, 04:34 PM
Me, but what is your point?
He219
10-28-2003, 05:20 PM
"They just forgot to take the Red Stars down."
Of course... red stars make a make a country communist. I guess the American flag shows it is the most communist country in the world.
"Communism surpresses individual thought and aspiration for the security of the social order. It is definately not the 'Utopia' of a perfect world. "
A utopian world would not need government, it would have a natural order.
I didn't realize the American Flag had RED STARS??? Did I say anything about needing a government? I believe the less government the better.
Try reading it right, GazB.
He219 wrote:
They just forgot to take the Red Stars down. ;) (WINK)
Were are seeing the process of democraticization in the former Stalinist State, and are still experiencing the vestages of a totalitarian regieme.
:D
If you love Russia that much, why don't you live there?
fokket
10-28-2003, 06:32 PM
you can figure it out
'I agree the ATF should have pursued a less agressive approach, especially since they were going after him with just warrants for illegal firearms."
So you agree their tactics were wrong...
"But please don't try to make the ATF or the Justice Dept. look like the bad guys here."
Their tactics resulted in the deaths of quite a few people... if they had used better tactics fewer would have died... maybe even none might have died.
Hindsight is pretty handy isn't it?
"If you love Russia that much, why don't you live there?"
Hahahahahaha... that is so funny. I am sure the 12 year old who came up with it first won some award or something... though certainly not for logic.
I don't live in Russia because I live in New Zealand.
PsihoKeke
10-29-2003, 01:49 AM
"
"They just forgot to take the Red Stars down."
Slovenia is democratic country, yet in base where i was serving during conscription there was still a large red star on old baracks building. Since it's in difficult to reach they didn't bother to bring it down. So you can't blame Russians if they don't tear down all of their stars.
Blanke
10-29-2003, 03:17 PM
So you agree their tactics were wrong...
Well what did I just say?
Their tactics resulted in the deaths of quite a few people... if they had used better tactics fewer would have died... maybe even none might have died.
Hindsight is pretty handy isn't it?
Okay, you just missed the point here. I think it's pretty low to call the ATF agents who were there at Waco, "a Nazi army unit". They used the wrong tactics, and it did cause a lot of unnecessary deaths; but I wasn't talking about tactics here. Despite what you may think about American law enforcement I can vouch that there are still a lot of people in this line of work who take a lot of pride in doing this job professionally, and calling them Nazis just seemed like a real *****y thing to say. As for their leadership (like the people who ordered the ATF agents to raid Koresh's compound) I think that's where the root of the problem of Waco was (aside from Koresh himself)
But in your defense after reading your reply it seems like you were just criticizing their methods, as I can understand
khukuri
10-29-2003, 03:38 PM
The chechens could have chosen to blow the whole thing up, but they did not.
and who's fault is that? maybe they didn't have time? and you know, when a strong drug mellows you out, you don't act as fast, takes more time to do anything.
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You havent seen any video shots inside the buliding when the gas came in havent you?
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