Moscow Plans First Stalin Monument Since 1960s

[bison3255]

woot
50 minutes ago


MOSCOW (*******) - Moscow plans to erect a new statue of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, returning his once-ubiquitous image to its streets after an absence of four decades, a top city official said Wednesday.



Since President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) was elected in 2000, a number of Soviet symbols -- including the national anthem and an army flag -- have been restored to use, reflecting widespread nostalgia for Russia's communist years.



"A monument will be erected to those who took part in (leading the war against Adolf Hitler), including Stalin," Oleg Tolkachev, Moscow's senator in the upper house of parliament, told Ekho Moskvy radio.


Interfax news agency reported earlier that a Stalin monument would also be built in the Belgorod region near the Ukrainian border to mark the Soviet victory against Nazi Germany 60 years ago -- seen as the country's greatest military triumph.


In another sign of Stalin's growing appeal, state television channels have shown a number of prime-time television shows in recent months depicting him in a positive light.

[Kitsune]

They really want to erect a statue of the most cruel dictator of all time? Is this a joke?


In another sign of Stalin's growing appeal, state television channels have shown a number of prime-time television shows in recent months depicting him in a positive light. I am certainly not for demonizing anyone, even Stalin was a human being...but showing him in a positive light? Is this a media exaggeration or the truth?

Perhaps there reason to worry about Russia, after all...

[bison3255]

they already erected a couple from my memory, and they put up a statue to the secret police a couple weeks ago

[Kitsune]

How does a "statue to the secret police" look? Two goons carrying one screaming and kicking guy away?

[bison3255]

How does a "statue to the secret police" look? Two goons carrying one screaming and kicking guy away?probably two goons carrying a latvian away with a caption saying "if you build statues to your SS freedom fighters, well build statues to our NKVD" rofl

[Kitsune]

Fair enough. But Latvia becoming fascist doesn't worry me as much as Russia becoming Stalinist again. Why is that?

[khukuri]

OMG

Do you have statues of NKVD.

How are stalin and NKVD displayed in russian school books?

[bison3255]

Fair enough. But Latvia becoming fascist doesn't worry me as much as Russia becoming Stalinist again. Why is that?Probably because we already have stalin-lite in power and politics are moving more and more todawrds nationalism, though it is doubtful any new stalin will come to power without a revolution (which would probably be a good thing as everything is too ****ed up to fix with current system)


OMG

Do you have statues of NKVD.

How are stalin and NKVD displayed in russian school books?yes one was built for secret police day (nice holiday :D)

dont know about textbooks, but probably present both sides (he did take russia from the feudal age to the jet age in 20 years)

[Operation Ivy]

yea stalin was a great guy so lets build him a statue :roll:

[Initiative]

:bash:

[S'13]

They don't have a single memorial for the victims of the Gulags, the Great Purges or even the Holodomor but they feel its important to build a statue commemorating Stalin...

:cantbeli:

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?

[FFanatic]

That's f00king sick! :bash: :fork:
Statue for a mass-million-murderer-dictator-commie-****head. :slap:
I hope they build a statue for Hitler too. So they would be in equivalent company for eachother. :backhand:

[FallenAngel]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?

Maybe they don't like the fact that the Russians are starting to idolize a man who was responsible for the deaths of 50+ million people. Not exactly the kind of role-model most people would want to see.

But that's just why I give a ****.

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?

Maybe they don't like the fact that the Russians are starting to idolize a man who was responsible for the deaths of 50+ million people. Not exactly the kind of role-model most people would want to see.

But that's just why I give a ****.

50 million huh

[Berkut]

That's f00king sick! :bash: :fork:
Statue for a mass-million-murderer-dictator-commie-****head. :slap:
I hope they build a statue for Hitler too. So they would be in equivalent company for eachother. :backhand:

Everyone that doesnt kiss America's ass is a mass-million-murderer-dictator-commie-****head ;)

[bison3255]

he modernized the country from the feudal age to the jet age, it is because of him that russia was not exterminated in ww2 and is not today some ****pool like moldova or albania.

anyway http://www.cpod.ca/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewItem&itemID=5383

16 per cent of respondents believe only a rigid ruler could support order under the conditions Stalin faced decades ago, while 18 per cent feel that Russians will never be able to manage without a leader like him.

Stalin remained in power until his death in 1953. 29 per cent of respondents believe Stalin "was not directly responsible for some errors" and should be commanded for his victory in World War II, while 21 per cent regard him as a "wise leader, who led the Soviet Union to might and prosperity."

[Pille1234]

@bison
The more numbers you quote the more nervous I become.
Maybe we reduced our number of tanks too quick and too drastic...

[bison3255]

@bison
The more numbers you quote the more nervous I become.
Maybe we reduced our number of tanks too quick and too drastic...maybe we let stupid **** gorby into office a few centuries too soon

[stuntman]

@bison
The more numbers you quote the more nervous I become.
Maybe we reduced our number of tanks too quick and too drastic...maybe we let stupid f*** gorby into office a few centuries too soon
Gorby was cool by the way!
Anyways excuse my ignorance in regards to this topic, but I thought I read once that when he died alot of people were very sad, even victims and enemies. And I was wondering why also after his death, the Communist party removed alot of statues and old propaganda from Russia?

[bison3255]

there were various political struggles so propaganda and statues were "refreshed"

[BlackFlag]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
not my business

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
and please dont compare Stalin to hitler!

[RomanS]

@bison
The more numbers you quote the more nervous I become.
Maybe we reduced our number of tanks too quick and too drastic...

Europe can build as many tanks as they want, they dont stand a chance against Russia by themselves.

[BlackFlag]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
and please dont compare Stalin to hitler! i think its a fair comparison, they were both shor,t paranoid, assclown murderers.

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
and please dont compare Stalin to hitler! i think its a fair comparison, they were both shor,t paranoid, assclown murderers.
right

Cesar killed many people, and look they name a salad dressing and a casino after that name.

mind your own business, it helps.

[BlackFlag]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
and please dont compare Stalin to hitler! i think its a fair comparison, they were both shor,t paranoid, assclown murderers.
right

Cesar killed many people, and look they name a salad dressing and a casino after that name.

mind your own business, it helps. oh so i suppose this is YOUR business because you pretend to be russian? also, Julius Caesar was over2000 years ago and Caesar is a title and not relating to Julius Caesar...there were many Caesars, anyways arguing over salad dressing is ridiculous...the point is, you didnt know why people were offended or upset about a statue of an evil dictator. I tried to make an analogy, but you couldnt comprehend it. I guess you think its "cool" to like stalin. If you were sent to a goolag then maybe you'd think otherwise.

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
and please dont compare Stalin to hitler! i think its a fair comparison, they were both shor,t paranoid, assclown murderers.
right

Cesar killed many people, and look they name a salad dressing and a casino after that name.

mind your own business, it helps. oh so i suppose this is YOUR business because you pretend to be russian? also, Julius Caesar was over2000 years ago and Caesar is a title and not relating to Julius Caesar...there were many Caesars, anyways arguing over salad dressing is ridiculous...the point is, you didnt know why people were offended or upset about a statue of an evil dictator. I tried to make an analogy, but you couldnt comprehend it. I guess you think its "cool" to like stalin. If you were sent to a goolag then maybe you'd think otherwise.

I am Russian. My passport is red with Two Headed Eagle. And it says "РОССИЙСКАЯ ФЕДЕРАЦИЯ" on it. So I'm not sure how this is Russianwanabe or pretending to be Russian. Help me here, confused.
And you are damn right this is my business since I'm a Russian citizen. Are you?

There are a lot of negative things could be said about your administration, especially the current one. I'm sure a man who ordered the atom bomb droped on Japan is a murderer in many people's eyes. But I won't judge your countrys past, because it is not mine. I respect your nation and its history. And I respect those who dont interfer with ours.

As for Stalin, every part of the history is exaggerated, inserted with a huge dose of propaganda (depending on what side of the storry you are reading), and contains some information that doesnt add up.

My parents, grandparents, my friend's grandfolks all lived in Stalins regime, and I never recall any horror stories. Even 30 years after he died. Even today.

Again, this topic is turning into GAY FLAMEWAR in which i dont have a desire to participate.

[Berkut]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?

Did Stalin try to invade the entire world and exterminate all jews, arabs, slavs, communists, homo******s, mentally ill and many other kind of people?

silly comparaison :bash:

[EvanL]

Russia still has a long way to go before it sheds itself of the communist/socialist image, and becomes a true democracy.

[bison3255]

Russia still has a long way to go before it sheds itself of the communist/socialist image, and becomes a true democracy.dream on if you think that will happen (especially the latter part)

[EvanL]

Russia still has a long way to go before it sheds itself of the communist/socialist image, and becomes a true democracy.dream on if you think that will happen (especially the latter part)
dont worry im not planning on it. especially since the Ukraine elections.

[usa320]

Thats mucked up...

bison=teh board commie.

[EvanL]

Thats mucked up...

bison=teh board commie.
usa320=teh board loser hitler

[usa320]

Thats mucked up...

bison=teh board commie.
usa320=teh board loser hitler


hitler, yeah, okay...


:roll:

[EvanL]

Thats mucked up...

bison=teh board commie.
usa320=teh board loser hitler


hitler, yeah, okay...


:roll:
sigheil

[SeanAshi]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?
Good point. He did turn Russia into a super power,but at the same time he racked up the highest body count then anyone else in the first half of the 20th century.

[RavenW]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?
and please dont compare Stalin to hitler!

The comparison is not only fair, it is quenstionable which of those tyrants caused more harm to the people of Russia - Stalin or Hitler?
Frankly, Stalin gives Hitler an early start in the race of horrible dictators in the history of mankind. (сто очков форы даст)

And lets leave it at that.

[RavenW]

By the way, it's not the first statue of Stalin erected in Russia.



Первый же в новой России памятник Сталину был установлен в уральском поселке Тайгинка Челябинской области ещё в 2003 году.

Местные рабочие восстановили памятник «отцу народов», обнаружив его в разобранном виде в одном из подсобных помещений комбината «Уралграфит». Руководители региона посчитали этот почин вполне уместным. Скульптура попала «на хранение» после ХХ съезда партии, и начальник рудника принял решение восстановить памятник на территории предприятия. С 1956 года это был первый памятник Сталину, восстановленный на территории России.

www.gazeta.ru


I already sent an e-mail to my family and my best friendabout it.
what a shame :(

[PatricVadec]

I agree with Roman...why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?....It's Russia internal affair.....they build it in
russian soil ....Stalin is just a simple human he has both bad side and good side,he done much more thing for the former soviet union destroy and build, if the russians don't like this statue they wil crak it down by them self .
Don't be panic. ;)

[RavenW]

I agree with Roman...why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?....It's Russia internal affair.....they build it in
russian soil ....Stalin is just a simple human he has both bad side and good side,he done much more thing for the former soviet union destroy and build, if the russians don't like this statue they wil crak it down by them self .
Don't be panic. ;)

Do you even know who was Stalin? :cantbeli:



hmmmmm.......... it is so frustrating lately to see such little signs of intelligence in the people who participate in our forum. Are they kids who just don't go to school?
or simply ignorant individuals who open their mouths without thinking?

In respect to citezenship, ignorance is a crime.

Every citizen should know and understand the past of their countries.

Никто не забыт и ничто не забыто!

[eighty2]

I agree with Roman...why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?....It's Russia internal affair.....they build it in
russian soil ....Stalin is just a simple human he has both bad side and good side,he done much more thing for the former soviet union destroy and build, if the russians don't like this statue they wil crak it down by them self .
Don't be panic. ;)

I'm sure Neville Chamberlain said the same thing 65 years ago ... "What the hell? He seems like a nice man..."

Besides Russia doesn't have a history of oppressing it's neighbors, just ask Poland, The Ukraine, Georgia, etc...

[callous]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?

Did Stalin try to invade the entire world and exterminate all jews, arabs, slavs, communists, homo******s, mentally ill and many other kind of people?

silly comparaison :bash:

Do you know anything about communism?

FORMER SOVIET UNION

Communist Coup d'Etat and Civil War 14,5 million
Land collectivisation 5,0 million
Liquidation of *enemies of the 3,0 million
people* an minorities
Ukrainian genocide 10,0 million
Stalin's purges 1,5 million
Deaths in GULAG 1918 - 1975 23,0 million
________________
57,0 million

EUROPE

Revolutions and invasions 0,5 million
Liquidation of political 2,0 million
enemies
Purges 1,0 million
Deaths in forced labor camps 0,5 million
Germans killed during expellation 2,0 million
________________
6,0 million

ASIA

China including famine 80,0 million
Tibet 0,2 million
Korean war 4,0 million
Malaya 0,02 million
The Philippines 0,015 million
Vietnam 2,5 million
Cambodia and Laos 2,0 million
Afghanistan 2,0 million
__________________
90,735 million

LATIN AMERICA

Cuba 0,03 million
El Salvador 0,075 million
Nicaragua 0,003 million
Peru 0,02 million
________________
0,128 million

AFRICA 1,2 million

GRAND TOTAL 153,863 million

Do you know anything about Stalin?
Joseph Stalin (http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.htm)

[RomanS]

FORMER SOVIET UNION

Communist Coup d'Etat and Civil War 14,5 million
Land collectivisation 5,0 million
Liquidation of *enemies of the 3,0 million
people* an minorities
Ukrainian genocide 10,0 million
Stalin's purges 1,5 million
Deaths in GULAG 1918 - 1975 23,0 million
________________
57,0 million




Question
how did they caliculate every death. 57,0 million bodies were recovered? You do need a body for evidence right?

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

If you worry about Stalin statues in Russia, then you should be ****ting your pants at the thought of Stalin sightings in Tajikistan (http://www.diacritica.com/sobaka/archive/tajik.html). :D

A few small points - the SS statue was put up by a man in Estonia (later their government ordered him to remove Nazi and SS markings from the statue). Despite the local proto-fascists' best efforts, Latvia still has enough of a former-USSRian population (mostly Russian, but people from the southern republics (except those poor fuzzy Chechens - our enemy's enemy and all that) get much more heavily discriminated against - I heard a pretty sad story about some Tajik that burned himself to death because they took away his citizenship while he was out of the country and wouldn't let him come back for his family) that they only manage to deface victory monuments so far.

As for Stalin, don't forget that most of his killing was done because of Hitler. He may have been a piss-poor at playing war (it's only numbers and sheer determination that saved us - according to Valentin Pikul there was at least two instances when Stalin or other top party members tried to surrender), but when it came to mopping up Nazi scum, him and Beria were second to none. Caucasian collaborators in the army's rear (did you know that bombers that were supposed to be fighting on the Caucasian front in 1943 had to be used to keep the traitors in the rear at bay?), German spies and saboteurs in the cities (did you know Stalingrad was littered with German propaganda and the mayor and his family received regular obscene death threats?), Hitler-juniors in the Baltics (I believe that Latvia was 2nd to Poland in the number of concentration camps), Tatars in Crimea, and traitors like Vlasov and Hitler's Kazaks and Soviet "Muslim regiments." That's a hell of a lot of people, and many of them deserved to die. A lot of people sent to the concentration camps were guilty of a lot more than political crimes, too.

In the end, it is probably wiser, and certainly would have been much cheaper, not to demolish statues in the first place. Old politics, like fashion, will eventually come back into style.

Plus he had a really bitching mustache. :D

[RomanS]

the real question is
why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue? what would you think if present day germany errected a statue of Adolf Hitler?

Did Stalin try to invade the entire world and exterminate all jews, arabs, slavs, communists, homo******s, mentally ill and many other kind of people?

silly comparaison :bash:

Do you know anything about communism?


GRAND TOTAL 153,863 million

Do you know anything about Stalin?
Joseph Stalin (http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.htm)

lol
its like those WMDs you keep looking for. They are there, they are on the paper.

And actually those times were Communism vs Capitalism. So both sides are guilty of the 153,863 billion million deaths

[RavenW]

FORMER SOVIET UNION

Communist Coup d'Etat and Civil War 14,5 million
Land collectivisation 5,0 million
Liquidation of *enemies of the 3,0 million
people* an minorities
Ukrainian genocide 10,0 million
Stalin's purges 1,5 million
Deaths in GULAG 1918 - 1975 23,0 million
________________
57,0 million




Question
how did they caliculate every death. 57,0 million bodies were recovered? You do need a body for evidence right?

Not really, Soviet as well as Western historians did not need to count every body to estimate that 27 million Soviets died during Great Patriotic War.

This is a good question, how historians do this.

Well, as a guy who hopefully will work on doctorate in History of Russian Civil War in near future, I began to study some materials from Hoovers Institute at Standford University (the largest archive of Russian/Soviet materials ourside of RF). There is an interesting report of one of Russian historians right now about the economy of GULAG (does anyone want to read some of it? - I have a photo copy at home) in which she seriously describes the process of estimation of the deaths that happened there. Unfortunately, I cann't recall the exact way she did it. If you want you can always look up "Доклад по Экономическому Аспекту ГУЛАГа в период 1935-45 для Исторического отдела при Академии Наук Р. Ф."

In terms of scientific estimates, there are certain models that can pretty fairly calculate the numbers of deaths, without recovering every body of tsunami victims, or verifying every body of the WWI casualty.

As for populistic way, just think of Solzhenytsin estimates that the population of camp completely refreshed (was re-supplied) every four (?) month with prisoners in 1949.

[Thor]

57 million killed in the Soviet Union... The Evil Empire.

I heard China had some similar numbers and the total number of deaths due to communist regimes were some 200 million people... Those commies are som crazy ****s.

The free world will prevail again. Ronald Raygun, we miss you.. :(

[Sergei]

This is sick ****.
After all the artificially engineered famine in Ukraine and Russia there are idiots who wish to erect the monument to Stalin?
Someone in the russian government is missing a brain or a heart.

This is sick ****, that's all I can say.

[RavenW]

For those of you who can read.
What is the MOST INTERESTING is that this article appeared LAST year, way BEFORE the story about those monuments in Russia.



Ползучая реабилитация
Кирилл Харатьян

Как, однако, радикально и быстро меняется на противоположное общественное сознание – по крайней мере, у нас, у русских! Всего пятнадцать лет назад не было зверя хуже и страшней Иосифа Виссарионовича Сталина – и вот, глядите-ка, он в полной красе и благообразии не слезает с экранов телевизоров.

Вождь всех народов и лучший друг писателей и детей предстает как живой и в псевдодокументальных повествованиях, и в сериалах на темы недавней советской истории.

То есть телеканалы, соревнуясь, убеждают рядового русскоговорящего в нормальности этого безжалостного чудовища и изверга, причем сразу двумя способами: как бы объективно, за счет воспоминаний о славных страницах героического коммунистического прошлого, и эдак вот художественно, представляя его образ как неизбежный элемент пейзажа соответствующих годов.

Поскольку про современную политику по телевизору ничего говорить не следует, чтобы не дразнить кремлевских гусей, жадные до умных рассуждений тележурналисты вынуждены заниматься историческими изысканиями, а там, чуть копни, всюду Сталин. И ничего не поделаешь с ним, так материалы устроены в архивах и головах оставшихся в живых многочисленных чекистов-кагэбэшников.

То же и в сериалах: исчерпав дореволюционную жизнь и немало намучившись и наошибавшись с тогдашними совершенно непостижимыми сегодня реалиями, киношники обратились к гораздо более понятным и простым в реквизитном отношении реалиям сталинского прошлого. Тем более и разнообразной литературы понаписано за истекший период немыслимое количество – взять хотя бы популярность такой, например, книги, как «Генералиссимус» писателя-фронтовика Карпова, немаленький тираж которой, говорят, разошелся за считаные недели.

Хорошо хоть по Карпову еще сериал никто не снял.

И противопоставить этой творящейся на глазах всего честного народа реабилитации нечего. Демократические годы для общественного сознания прошли совершенно втуне.

Вот поглядите: на официальном уровне не появилось никакой новой исторической концепции, которая описывала бы советские времена, и в том числе Вторую мировую войну, по-иному, нежели их описывали в сами советские времена.

Проще говоря, все эти гласность и свобода слова, будто бы торжествовавшие в горбачевские и ельцинские времена, ухнули в небытие, не оставив никаких реальных следов в школьных и вузовских учебниках и преподавательских головах, а также в творческих планах кинематографистов и телевизионщиков.

А сегодняшней власти сталинские повадки как-то, видимо, не кажутся чем-то предосудительным. Диктатор, конечно, но страну держал как! При нем бы, конечно!..

И потихоньку происходит уже четвертое (при Хрущеве, при Брежневе, при Горбачеве–Ельцине и вот теперь при Путине) на моей памяти переосмысление недалекого коммунистического прошлого – и самое, на мой вкус, отвратительное, поскольку очень несамостоятельное: телевизионные и прочие мыслители пытаются представить Сталина как в 1970-е годы, то есть «объективно», делая акцент на его роли в политических процессах своего времени и все время забывая добавить, что на совести этого крупнейшего политического вампира XX века по меньшей мере 30 млн замученных, что, я думаю, несомненный рекорд, достойный соответствующей Книги Гиннесса.

Да, и ведь нет сомнений, что в ближайшие полгода телевизионная популярность исторического суперхищника вырастет минимум на порядок: приближается же 60-летие Победы над фашизмом, а кто сковал ее в тиши ближней дачи да кремлевского кабинета?

Правильно, он, тот, кто никогда не спит, тот, кому до всего есть дело, тот, с чьим якобы именем на устах неразделимый союз коммунистов и беспартийных шел спасаться от путь СМЕРШа под пули фашистов.

И кстати, как вам реклама какой-то жилой недвижимости, которую возводит Управление делами президента России: «Ближняя дача ждет хозяина»?

Рекламщики, даже скверные, очень чувствуют настроения в обществе.

[Turhapuro]

Looks like Europe should start again cranking up its defences. :(

[bloddyaxe]

Nice. It would be even nicer if you could post a picture of the statue when and if it is ready!

And seriously, people shouldn't get so paranoid about erecting a statue of a dead dictator. Even though Superkomrad had a nice beard.
Although it would be nice if the EU started to give us tanks!!! :)

[Argo AdAm]

Well, I think that Russians should erect another monument.... Adolf Hitler monument. At first view it seems to be weird but he did very much for making Soviet Union the empire.
If you will analize the way Russians here are explaining why erecting the Stalin monument is not something unusual, then you realize that they should be grateful also to Adolf for development of their country. It's Adolf Hitler who make Stalin the beloved defender of the motherland. When Germans attacked Soviet Union, Stalin got an opportunity to accomplish his war plans and Russians suddenly forgot (but only those who knew) how many of them had "disappeared" in years when Stalin ruled. For example many experienced officers in Red Army were murdered in those times and that have consequences in the 1941. If the Germans hadn't attacked in 1941, then Russians would have attacked the Germany few years later and The Great Patriotic War couldn't be named defensive war bur aggresive war.

Russians are saying that this is their own buisness and nobody should care about that. Of course, but it's doesn't mean that nobody can't analize what is happening in Russia now. Seems to that Russian authorities and big part of nation prefer to forgot how many crimes Stalin is responsible for, how many his own people were killed by him. (BTW Even Adolf didn't killed as many Germans as Stalin's rules killed Russians before the war. ) They want to have only those good memories. Because the only thing which is important is when he ruled in Soviet Union their country was developing very fast and was the empire. So or they have a slave mentality or they are able to accept a very big price of making Russia the empire and that fact tells much... This way of thinking make me afraid...

I wonder how many Russians know what Lenin thought about Stalin.

Regards

[Operation Ivy]

i just dont why some people are trying to defend stalin he wasnt really a good guy

[Berkut]

Russia still has a long way to go before it sheds itself of the communist/socialist image, and becomes a true democracy.

American style democracy? choose between right wing and right wing

:roll:
Anyway about this thread, 1st Stalin is a historical leader that marked his time, so its logic to have a statue erected. To remind people about what he did, good or bad.
and 2nd erecting statues in Russia should concern only Russians... so people stop bitching about this ;)

[khukuri]

First of all, all theese figures are way exxagered. Even the stories and tales about stalin are for 50% western made bull****! And those ones in other countries like in latinamerika. Many peopole did die beacuse of civil wars btw peoplesupported communist guerillas and usa supported dictator regimes. So If you wanna talk evil leaders and figures youre country isnt exactly A saint either americans. You have poeple like carter and reagen which payed for death squads in latinamerika, still theyre theyre seen as heroes. They did the same thing as stalin did, but in less figures and more covert. And dont tell me you had reasons to, becaus if you had reasons to opress the latin.american people stalin had alot more reasons to act the way he did. Hes country was almost wiped out.
Youre not the right ones to complain. And Stalin did do alot of good for SU. Even if I despise him and think that hes a sickass.


Second of all Iám tired of all you not being able to make a difference btw communism/socialism and what stalin did. Stalin is the that is less leftist by all communist leaders ever. Ask anybody who know what theyre talking about when it comers to ideologies. The only thing that was abit similar whas how he handed economy - but still more in his ways than one would see as traditinoal socialist way.


But raising a monument to a guy who after all the good stuff he did, still opress the population of a big region. I am very surprised about the statue. And especially the NKVD one, thats crazy.


And for last: You russians say that this is your internal businnes and why would anyone care? Hmmm... lets compare it with something.
You have a guy called Osama Bin laden. He builds roads, hospitals and alot of other good stuff in countries like afghanistan and sudan/somalia (don remember which one). And then he goes like a ****tard killing thousands of innocent people. Wonder how people wouldve reacted if they in somalia/sudan (as I said dont remember) would build a statue of him right now. I think people here including you would say things like nuke them, pigs, etc etc etc...

[BlackFlag]

FORMER SOVIET UNION

Communist Coup d'Etat and Civil War 14,5 million
Land collectivisation 5,0 million
Liquidation of *enemies of the 3,0 million
people* an minorities
Ukrainian genocide 10,0 million
Stalin's purges 1,5 million
Deaths in GULAG 1918 - 1975 23,0 million
________________
57,0 million



Question
how did they caliculate every death. 57,0 million bodies were recovered? You do need a body for evidence right? they never exhumed 12 million bodies from the nazi holocaust...but it is common knowledge that 12 million people still died..something i dont think you will disagree with since many of them were soviets..

Anyways, this thread is turning into something more than it should be...the Russians are building a statue of Stalin to recognize those who fought against Hitler. Stalin DID fight against Hitler, therefore its cause is not one out of spite to the west. Earlier I just tried to illustrate why people in the west would be upset about this as Roman didnt understand why. This is just getting ridiculous now, yeah stalin was a douche baggg...so was hitler...and so was andrew jackson... and napolean....and longshanks....and countless other rulers...the point is, this thread has just turned into stalin is evil vs. stalin isnt THAT evil when it was originally a post about a statue..

[Bluezoo]

One step forward and two steps backward. No wonder that country is still in deep ****. :cantbeli:

[KZ_Finland]

Meaby democracy in Russia was a good thing for western world. But it made living in russia much, much harder.

Many people who lived during soviet times. I meen people 40 and over told that it wasn't so bad. If you would just keep your mouth shut and didn't ask to much questions you'd be just fine.

Old people got deasent amount of money, Goverment looked for it's people. Well there was shortage on curtain things, but most of them weren't really that needet.

I think it's wrong to put statue to NKVD. It's just not right. But if people wont like it they can always get rid of it.

[bison3255]

This is sick ****.
After all the artificially engineered famine in Ukraine and Russia there are idiots who wish to erect the monument to Stalin?
Someone in the russian government is missing a brain or a heart.

This is sick ****, that's all I can say.yay, i pissed off the board khakhol :D

[Gyles84]

THE COMMUNIST APTITUDE TEST

Welcome, comrade! Have you ever wondered if you are a real communist? Have you had sleepless nights in expectation of our next purge?

We now have the solution for your troubles! With the Communist Aptitude Test you can now be sure of your faith! Try it on your family and friends too! Earn extra points for turning in all the petty bourgeois deviationists you can spot!


Part I - Marxist-Leninist Theory

1. Marx's predictions as laid down in "Das Kapital" were:
(a) wrong, as evidenced by the real world.
(b) wrong, due to a capitalist conspiracy.
(c) The real world is a capitalist conspiracy.

2. When a theory sponsored by the Party is proved wrong by the facts, the "scientific socialist" thing to do is:
(a) junk the theory and search for a new explanation which fits the facts.
(b) junk the facts and search for a new explanation which fits the theory.
(c) blame antiparty elements for proving the theory wrong.
(d) jail or shoot anyone who does not believe in the theory, regardless.


Part II - Applied Marxism-Leninism

1. Communist governments have invariably turned into:
(a) brutal and corrupt dictatorships which impoverish the workers, as in North Korea.
(b) classless paradises of freedom and prosperity, as in North Korea.
(c) brutal and corrupt dictatorships which impoverish the workers, as a logical first step towards establishing a classless paradise of freedom and prosperity.
(d) True freedom and prosperity consist in submission to a brutal and corrupt dictatorship which impoverishes the workers.

2. A well-off communist (ie, Lenin, Trotsky) is:
(a) a class enemy nevertheless.
(b) an impossibility, all communists are working-class.
(c) a honorary proletarian regardless of wealth.
(d) a member of the Nomenklatura.

3. Where would you rather spend your vacations?
(a) Hawaii.
(b) Cuba.
(c) North Korea.


Scoring

If you answered mostly (a) - What are you doing here? You are a reactionary and an enemy of the people. Go away!

If you answered mostly (b) - Not bad. You are not a communist yet, but you would make an acceptable fellow traveller. Try having your brain removed and take the Test again next year.

If you answered only (c) or (d) - Congratulations comrade! You are a full red-blooded communist!


Please send us your Communist Aptitude Test score to the Party HQ along with a $100.00 application fee. No roubles or Cuban pesos accepted. U.S. dollars/Euros preferred.

[Turhapuro]

Stalin is the that is less leftist by all communist leaders ever.
That is
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/Bull****_iso.gif

[khukuri]

Stalin is the that is less leftist by all communist leaders ever.
That is
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/Bull****_iso.gif

The only one here talkin **** is you!

Apparently you dont even know what youre talking about. Stalin was seen as the one who was less interested in the communist ideology in the top of the communist party. Lenin even warned about him. Communists all over the world see what stalin did as opposite to their beleifes. Some poeple even say that hes as much communist as fascist. And fact he didnt give **** about ideologies and did as hes saw whats best was best. Just because he was more hardcore and fanatic doesnt mean he was more comunist.

So check your **** and back to the library, that if you Read thou?

[Gyles84]

Obviously there were many differences, but look at the similarities:

Both were revolutionary.
Both were socialist.
Both came to power as political parties that exploited the discontent of the working class in the post WWI era.
Both originated in Germany.
Both were anti-religion. The state was the new religion.
Both created cults of personality around their leaders.
Both created police states that eliminated dissenters.
Both were expansionist ideologies that believed it was their fate to dominate the world.
Both used scapegoats to deflect public anger (Jews, bourgeois counterrevolutionaries).
Both thought the capitalist democracies were weak and corrupt.
Both devoted huge amounts of resources to the military while the people did without.
Both had no interest in the truth if it did not serve their propaganda purposes.
Both made their party members above the law.
Both built concentration camps and used slave labor.
Both murdered millions of their own people.
Both were defeated by the free peoples of the world.
Both were discredited by history.

To me, Nazism is totalitarian socialism based on race, Communism is totalitarian socialism based on class.

Im not interested in how far Communist dictator A deviated from the path of Communist dictator B, just keep them the hell away from me. Makes you wonder how many millions have to die in this little social experiment before some ppl finally get it.

[Argo AdAm]

Im not interested in how far Communist dictator A deviated from the path of Communist dictator B, just keep them the hell away from me. Makes you wonder how many millions have to die in this little social experiment before some ppl finally get it. Agree. Sad that still there are some who don't want to get it (neonazis and Stalin's admirers)
Gyles84, you're completely right.

[Nizark]

it got cancelled http://au.news.yahoo.com/050120/19/sodl.html

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

From Nizark's link:

"the monument would depict just Roosevelt and Churchill."

Ok, WTF? With friends like Churchill, who needs Hitler? He didn't exactly keep it a big secret that the reason he held back from opening a 2nd front in Europe was that he wanted the Soviets to get beat (something that pissed off quite a few American military men - he was pretty much alone with his view). At this rate, it probably would have been a good idea to put up a statue of Hitler (or at least something tasteful for fallen Wermacht soldiers, like that statue to the Danes).

[~~~~]

MOSCOW (*******) - Moscow plans to erect a new statue of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, returning his once-ubiquitous image to its streets after an absence of four decades, a top city official said Wednesday.

"A monument will be erected to those who took part in (leading the war against Adolf Hitler), including Stalin," Oleg Tolkachev, Moscow's senator in the upper house of parliament, told Ekho Moskvy radio.

Interfax news agency reported earlier that a Stalin monument would also be built in the Belgorod region near the Ukrainian border to mark the Soviet victory against Nazi Germany 60 years ago -- seen as the country's greatest military triumph.

In another sign of Stalin's growing appeal, state television channels have shown a number of prime-time television shows in recent months depicting him in a positive light.

A TO ŚCIERWA...

[bison3255]

Boris Gryzlov, speaker of the lower house in Moscow, recently described him as a man of "uncommon qualities" who had "done much for the victory of the Soviet Union."

[Commie]

Stalin did great things for his country but not to his people.

[BlackFlag]

Stalin did great things for his country but not to his people. that statement makes no sense...what is a country without its people?: just land.

[Raistlin]

That's actually a very good statement. It just shows the difference of definition of what a "country" is between totalitarism and democracy.

[PatricVadec]

I agree with Roman...why do the rest of the countries in the world GIVE A **** about a statue?....It's Russia internal affair.....they build it in
russian soil ....Stalin is just a simple human he has both bad side and good side,he done much more thing for the former soviet union destroy and build, if the russians don't like this statue they wil crak it down by them self .
Don't be panic. ;)

Do you even know who was Stalin? :cantbeli:



hmmmmm.......... it is so frustrating lately to see such little signs of intelligence in the people who participate in our forum. Are they kids who just don't go to school?
or simply ignorant individuals who open their mouths without thinking?

In respect to citezenship, ignorance is a crime.

Every citizen should know and understand the past of their countries.

Никто не забыт и ничто не забыто!


hmmmmm.......... it is so frustrating lately to see such little signs of intelligence in the people who participate in our forum. Are they kids who just don't go to school?

I think u seem as a baby that creep out from mother womb,Is it importance that everyone must think same as u, and the people that think differrence from you are uneducated or abnormal...?This is freedom forum.I'm not sure you're real lived in USA.don't you know the word"liberty"

you're trying to do your self like Stalin ,condemn every body that not agree with you.poor boy :(

[khukuri]

That's actually a very good statement. It just shows the difference of definition of what a "country" is between totalitarism and democracy.


Couldnt described it better.

[bison3255]

Stalin did great things for his country but not to his people. that statement makes no sense...what is a country without its people?: just land.Its a very good statement, because whilw his atrocities were too much and he is responsible for much of todays hatred in the fUSSR, he modernized the country from feudal age to jet age and created a nuclear superpower.

[Abbyy]

Sculpture project:

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d217/585.JPG

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

Stalin is the that is less leftist by all communist leaders ever.
That is
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/Bull****_iso.gif

The only one here talkin **** is you!

Apparently you dont even know what youre talking about. Stalin was seen as the one who was less interested in the communist ideology in the top of the communist party. Lenin even warned about him. Communists all over the world see what stalin did as opposite to their beleifes. Some poeple even say that hes as much communist as fascist. And fact he didnt give **** about ideologies and did as hes saw whats best was best. Just because he was more hardcore and fanatic doesnt mean he was more comunist.

So check your **** and back to the library, that if you Read thou?

x2 well said, they should just build a statue of Lenin, sadly i think Lenin and Stalin are tarred with the same "commie" brush.




Obviously there were many differences, but look at the similarities:

Both were revolutionary.
Both were socialist.

Hitler was a nationalist, under no definition would anyone describe him as a socialist.

Socialism is based on the principle that everyone is equal regardless of class or race.
Fascism is based on the principle that certain people are superior to other based on class or race.

Fascism and Socialism are ideological opposites.

[Lokos]

"The Russkies are building a statue to Stalin! OMGZ! Run for da hillz! Evil Commie Empire Reborn!"

Folks, when the sum total of your knowledge about the time of the 'Man of Steel' consists of fairy tales told to you by a) inaccurate Western sources from the 1950's-1980's and b) your grandparents, you should just not bother commenting here. When I read a response like 'Time for Europe to crank up the defense budget again' - all because of a statue to Stalin in Russia - it makes me sick deep, deep down in the darkest corners of my soul.

I am not exactly Iossif's greatest fan either, but 57 million dead by his hand? Gee, I wish I had whatever you're smoking. It must be some real good ****.

Yes, many people died under his rule. He was an extremely paranoid and at times an ignorant man. But, had he not personally guided the Soviet Union through its industrialization process in the late 20's and the 30's, how many more would have died under the Nazi boot? Had the SU not been ready to industrially oppose the Greater German Reich what would the world be like today?

And for that achievement, however macabre his methods may have been, he should be honored in Russian history. A tyrant, a killer and a paranoid maniac he may have been - but he saved the Russian people from enslavement and extermination.

Regards,
Lokos

[Jippo]

According your theory there wasn't a mentally healthy Russian in Soviet Union at that time who couldn't have done the same without killing tens of millions of people and starting wars????

Bull**** I say!

If there wasn't Stalin there would have been someone else who would have been more humane than him and at least as efficient. In you opinion was the Soviet union such a piss-poor country that it could be only run by a madman?

Josef was a beast. Nothing else.


-jippo

[the_janitor]

57 million killed in the Soviet Union... The Evil Empire.

I heard China had some similar numbers and the total number of deaths due to communist regimes were some 200 million people... Those commies are som crazy f***.

The free world will prevail again. Ronald Raygun, we miss you.. :(

No we don't :bash:

[dava]

Let the russian people decide for themselves.

[bison3255]

No, there was no sane Stalin to do the same things. If I remember correctly Trotsky advocated basically not even building up the army but just relying on a militia, and Lenin died.

[Dima-RussianArms]

To understand what Stalin have done for Russia you have to be Russian, simple like that.

Granted that he was and still is a controversial figure in many respects and how you view him depends to whose propaganda you are more susceptible.

Propaganda and BS, by both sides, aside, the fact is that Stalin inherited agricultural country laying in ruins after the revolution followed by the civil war and left it as a nuclear superpower...


Let the russian people decide for themselves.
Amen to that, thank you.

[Kilgor]

He took the country from the horse drawn plough to the atom bomb, but at the cost of million of lives. Was it worth it ?

The reason they cant find these bodies is they are lost somewhere in the siberian wilderness under the snow.

It was not all western propaganda, just look at the mass purges, show trials, trotsky ending up with the icepick in the back of his head and most of all the way he treated liberated russian POWs. His wife commiting suicide (or they say murdered), the total disinterest to get his son out of a POW camp, his other son dying of alcoholism, and his daughter defeating to the US !

To all the supporters to, why did Khrushchev totally and publically denouce him after his death ?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1929631030/103-7955951-9871823

check out this book , written by the head of intelligent in western europe who defeated to the US after stalin's paraniod demands became too much.

Writing this book cost him, his life.

[Argo AdAm]

He took the country from the horse drawn plough to the atom bomb, but at the cost of million of lives. Was it worth it ?
Dude, just read what Russians are writting here. The price doesn't matter for them. Even if this means millions of their countrymen dead, not foreigners but Russians! Those who survived are happy that their beloved country was/is an empire. They live in fear but they were proud of this empire of terror. They don't want to remember any bad things about their own country where they spend youth and whole life, about those times and especially about man who is responsible for that, even if he was simply murderer with sick ambitions. The worst thing they say on him is "controversial figure"...
Sad but true.

You know, the rule is simple - if someone kill your familly member but also give you a fortune that you extremly need, then he will not be a murderer but "controversial person"...
:|

[bison3255]

He took the country from the horse drawn plough to the atom bomb, but at the cost of million of lives. Was it worth it ? &lt;---Yes! If Germany marched in successfully as much if not more would be lost, and not to mention the diseaase and poverty of being a 3rd world ****hole would have negative effects


It was not all western propaganda, just look at the mass purges, show trials, trotsky ending up with the icepick in the back of his head and most of all the way he treated liberated russian POWs. His wife commiting suicide (or they say murdered), the total disinterest to get his son out of a POW camp, his other son dying of alcoholism, and his daughter defeating to the US ! &lt;---Hey, no one called him an angel. As for his son, it was necessary for reputation and the German generals were more valuable than his son... sorry, this is about world war, personal emotions cant interfere.

To all the supporters to, why did Khrushchev totally and publically denouce him after his death ? &lt;---Heard of political rivalries?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1929631030/103-7955951-9871823

check out this book , written by the head of intelligent in western europe who defeated to the US after stalin's paraniod demands became too much.

Writing this book cost him, his life. &lt;---Oh well, more oxygen for me

[Gyles84]

Hitler was a nationalist, under no definition would anyone describe him as a socialist.

Socialism is based on the principle that everyone is equal regardless of class or race.
Fascism is based on the principle that certain people are superior to other based on class or race.

Fascism and Socialism are ideological opposites.

Errm, those are incredibly convoluted and narrow definitions. Im not being flippant here but further historical studies might come in handy.

The National Socialist German Workers' Party :|

If you get the chance read the NSDAP programme pamphlet from 1932 or some Ian Hershaw. I'm not talking strictly of Hitler, or his specific beliefs. But National Socialism and Communism are just two seperate forms of socialism. One is tarted up with a racial cult, while the other focuses more on the capitalist bogeyman. Purely economically speaking, the Left would have deemed Adolf Hitler a "great statesman" had he not started a war. National Socialism was about massive state intervention into the economy coupled with a large expansion of the welfare state and a plethora of public beurocracies.

In 1933 Germany had an estimated six million unemployed. Like his contemporaries in the capitals and governments of the world-and like so many politicians today-Hitler had little interest in economics and, in fact, was totally ignorant of economic theory. Although economic centralization had to wait until political opponents and organized opposition was suppressed or liquidated, the Nazis' "new deal" began almost immediately. The list of "community projects" and Four Year Programmes would do Stalin himself proud.

[Dima-RussianArms]

He took the country from the horse drawn plough to the atom bomb, but at the cost of million of lives. Was it worth it ?


Abraham Lincoln kept the country together as one at the cost of a Civil War and about 600000 dead. Was it worth it?

All the talk about whether Russia would be better or worse without him is nothing but pure speculation unless any of you is able to travel to parallel reality and bring back concrete evidence.

[Midav]

Stalin wasn't any better than Hitler. He was a dictator every bit as horrid.

With that being said, Russia is its own country. If they want to put up a statue of Stalin, who cares? It's their right.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Dude, just read what Russians are writting here. The price doesn't matter for them. Even if this means millions of their countrymen dead, not foreigners but Russians! Those who survived are happy that their beloved country was/is an empire.
No, they are happy about 99.6% literacy rate and the highest number of people in the world with the college degree, first man in space 16 years after the country was laying in ruins after winning the fight for its very survival, decent free healthcare (thing of the past), numerous scientific, cultural and sports achievements...you know, thing that leave mark in the history books.

They live in fear but they were proud of this empire of terror.
:cantbeli: If you really believe that - you are beyond hopeless...


They don't want to remember any bad things about their own country
That is called "concentrating on the positive";) People who do so are much happier then those who see negative in everything

even if he was simply murderer with sick ambitions.
Name me a single leader who changed the course of history that doesn't have high bodycount number right next to his name...

The worst thing they say on him is "controversial figure"...
He is controversial because no one knows where propaganda and bs like yours ends and where real facts start.


You know, the rule is simple - if someone kill your familly member but also give you a fortune that you extremly need, then he will not be a murderer but "controversial person"...
So how many families have you witnessed Stalin killing personaly?

[Jippo]

Stalin wasn't any better than Hitler. He was a dictator every bit as horrid.

With that being said, Russia is its own country. If they want to put up a statue of Stalin, who cares? It's their right.

That would be fine if Stalin had kept the terror in his country, but he didn't. He terrorised other countries, and that is why other countries should have a say.


-jippo

[Midav]

Stalin wasn't any better than Hitler. He was a dictator every bit as horrid.

With that being said, Russia is its own country. If they want to put up a statue of Stalin, who cares? It's their right.

That would be fine if Stalin had kept the terror in his country, but he didn't. He terrorised other countries, and that is why other countries should have a say.


-jippo

Have a say, maybe, but in the end Russia has the final say.

[Gyles84]

Stalin wasn't any better than Hitler. He was a dictator every bit as horrid.

With that being said, Russia is its own country. If they want to put up a statue of Stalin, who cares? It's their right.

Lets just say their both nominated for the "Asshole of the Century" awards.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

There seem to be a few Russians commenting here, so let me ask everyone who's had a family member killed/imprisoned (political prisoners only please! "My grandpa stole to survive" BS doesn't count) to please raise their hand. The worst I could say is that my grandmother spent WWII in a refugee camp in Kazakhstan.

Look at the 1989 Soviet census - Russia has 147 million people, and the rest of the Soviet republics only add up to 140 million, and this is after a considerable period of population growth following WWII. There is no way the 200 million killed figure could possibly be ground in reality! Even 50 million is completely unreasonable. Most Western "historians" claim that half of those deaths occured in forced labor camps, but even if half of the people who went through them died (even though one of the wackiest "Stalin killed off 70% of the USSR" historians, RJ Rummel, says it was "up to 20%") that would still mean that someone like me would have an almost 100% chance of having a grand-grand parent, grandparent, or one of their siblings go through a forced labor camp (50 million / 300 million = 16% of the population, so we can say that each person had a 15% chance of being sent to a forced labor camp for the period between 1930 and 1960, times 10 relatives that fit into the group above (I really had much more than that - my maternal grandmother had 6 siblings alone)). Could someone who knows statistics figure out what is the probability of this happening to me? According to Solzhestyn's accounts the NKVD just grabbed random people off the streets, so the number of relatives who went through forced labor camps should follow a normal distribution.

I think I have the probability of someone with my family history given the 50 million figure is slightly less than 1%. Let's see how many other 1-percenters there are here.

[bison3255]

I had a great-grandfather and his siblings executed or gulaged.

On the other hand another great-grandfather was a commander in the Soviet Army :roll:

[Midav]

Reminds me of a joke:

Hitler and Goebbels die and are sent to heaven to be judged. When they arrive, St Peter meets them and brings them to the pool of sin.

St Peter explains that each in turn must step into the pool and the deeper one goes down, the more they have sinned in life. After explaining that, he beckons Goebbels to go in first. He takes a step forward and immediately sinks to his chin. St Peter shakes his head and remarks "You have been a very bad person in life".

Next, he beckons Hitler to go into the pool. He steps forward yet he hardly sinks down. It's as if Hitler's standing on water. Goebbels is amazed and whispers "hey Adolf, how did you manage to do that?!?"

"I'm standing on Stalin's head" he whispers back.

[Jippo]

Have a say, maybe, but in the end Russia has the final say.

Just like if Germans would choose to erect Hitler statue, yes. Russians would be the first to complain!

Of course Russian can do what they want in their nation, but the question is not about the statue, but about the fact how they see Stalin. Any sane German despises Hitler, but if sane Russians start to admire Stalin...


-jippo

[Dima-RussianArms]

Two of my grandparents were stripped of their possesions (farmers) and relocated, later one of the grandfathers was accused of cowardness (living to fight another day) and had to go through some "unplesantries", nevertheless he admired Stalin till the end of his days.

[Midav]

Have a say, maybe, but in the end Russia has the final say.

Just like if Germans would choose to erect Hitler statue, yes. Russians would be the first to complain!

Of course Russian can do what they want in their nation, but the question is not about the statue, but about the fact how they see Stalin. Any sane German despises Hitler, but if sane Russians start to admire Stalin...


-jippo

Listen, I think it is as stupid as any other sane human being would see it.

I don't think they should do it, because Stalin was an evil man.

However, what is anyone going to do? It is their territory. It is their right if they see it fit.

[Jippo]

Have a say, maybe, but in the end Russia has the final say.

Just like if Germans would choose to erect Hitler statue, yes. Russians would be the first to complain!

Of course Russian can do what they want in their nation, but the question is not about the statue, but about the fact how they see Stalin. Any sane German despises Hitler, but if sane Russians start to admire Stalin...


-jippo

Listen, I think it is as stupid as any other sane human being would see it.

I don't think they should do it, because Stalin was an evil man.

However, what is anyone going to do? It is their territory. It is their right if they see it fit.


I saw your point of view very clearly. I'm not worried about any statue, I'm worried about a government (and to a degree, people) who see them fit in this age and time.

Statue can hurt no-one, but a mislead and miseducated nation who want to put up monuments for genocide, can.


-jippo

[Midav]

The only country that can fix that is Russia.

Then again, is it the younger or older generation that has a more fond memory of Stalin?

However, as you said, a statue won't do anything. Built or not built, it's what is learned in the classroom.

[Argo AdAm]

Dude, just read what Russians are writting here. The price doesn't matter for them. Even if this means millions of their countrymen dead, not foreigners but Russians! Those who survived are happy that their beloved country was/is an empire.

No, they are happy about 99.6% literacy rate and the highest number of people in the world with the college degree, first man in space 16 years after the country was laying in ruins after winning the fight for its very survival, decent free healthcare (thing of the past), numerous scientific, cultural and sports achievements...you know, thing that leave mark in the history books.
In Poland after W.W.II the communist government also provoke many changes for better but it doesn't mean we forgot that in the same time they were terrorizing and murdering their own people. Is it hard to separate advantages and disadvantages of those times and to remember both?
Just think how many good things for Germans Hitler did before he started the war...




They live in fear but they were proud of this empire of terror.
:cantbeli: If you really believe that - you are beyond hopeless...
So country where innocent people can be arrested, send to prison and killed without any trial is not place of terror?




They don't want to remember any bad things about their own country
That is called "concentrating on the positive";) People who do so are much happier then those who see negative in everything
No, this is called "the selective memory". People prefer to not remember anything what links them with bad things or what could make them feel shame.




even if he was simply murderer with sick ambitions.
Name me a single leader who changed the course of history that doesn't have high bodycount number right next to his name...
Interesting. So killing your own citizens and committing many crimes on them is necessary to make your country better...? Without many Russians dead a progress in Soviet Union was impossible...? Which of crimes of Stalin's regime did help the society of Soviet Union? How many deaths of innocents your own citizens were necessary and not worth to remember...? Is there even one monument to those who died by Stalin regime in Russia?

I don't like any leader who is considered the great and did some good things for his nation but believed that only way to do this leads by killing some innocent people and conquering other nations. Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, Julius Cesar, Genghis Khan and others so called "the great leaders" are not worth of deaths they are responsible for. Hitler and Stalin are even worse category.




The worst thing they say on him is "controversial figure"...
He is controversial because no one knows where propaganda and bs like yours ends and where real facts start.

Propaganda? Where facts are uncomfortable you can name them the propaganda but this approach doesn't change the truth. Which of facts I wrote are untrue and were created in historician's minds?
Some day someone will say that Hitler's crimes are only bs, only because he won't be able to see any proves.




You know, the rule is simple - if someone kill your familly member but also give you a fortune that you extremly need, then he will not be a murderer but "controversial person"...
So how many families have you witnessed Stalin killing personaly?

Hmm... How many men was killed personaly by Hitler, how many by ibn Laden...?

[bison3255]

Yes there are monuments to thsoe killed by Stalin to answer your question

[Argo AdAm]

Yes there are monuments to thsoe killed by Stalin to answer your question
Thanks. I'm glad that it's better than I thought.

[bison3255]

No one says Stalin is an angel or good person, but he is not one dimensional evil dictator. He killed millions and he took the country from a group of serfs to a nuclear superpower.

[Midav]

No one says Stalin is an angel or good person, but he is not one dimensional evil dictator. He killed millions and he took the country from a group of serfs to a nuclear superpower.

Hitler also built roads, created jobs and helped Germany.

[bison3255]

He then got the bright idea to declare war on the rest of the world

[Midav]

He then got the bright idea to declare war on the rest of the world

Exactly! Stalin joined him, too. Even signed a nice little pact with ol Hitler boy :)

[bison3255]

might as well get half of eastern europe rather than let hitler take it all

[Lokos]

The bottom line is as follows:

Was Stalin a good man? No.

Was Stalin ultimately good for Russia? Yes.

Was Hitler a good man? Of course not.

Was Hitler ultimately good for Germany? Hell no.

Both were evil tyrants. But at least one of them was a sane evil tyrant.

And, Jippo, if you think that going from an almost non-existent industrial base to one of the world's foremost is a simple task that can be performed without cost to the people, you're just not capable of comprehending what is being discussed.

Lokos

[Midav]

might as well get half of eastern europe rather than let hitler take it all

Half of Europe? Poland was the only target. Half of Europe was taken and occupied by Stalin after WW II.

I've been to Eastern Europe and the good majority of those people have as fond a memory of Stalin as western Europe does of Hitler.

[Berkut]

He then got the bright idea to declare war on the rest of the world

Exactly! Stalin joined him, too. Even signed a nice little pact with ol Hitler boy :)

:cantbeli:

a NON-AGRESSION pact is NOT an ALLIANCE

[Midav]

He then got the bright idea to declare war on the rest of the world

Exactly! Stalin joined him, too. Even signed a nice little pact with ol Hitler boy :)

:cantbeli:

a NON-AGRESSION pact is NOT an ALLIANCE

They had a pact, agreement, call it whatever you will to divide up Poland.

[Jippo]

And, Jippo, if you think that going from an almost non-existent industrial base to one of the world's foremost is a simple task that can be performed without cost to the people, you're just not capable of comprehending what is being discussed.

Lokos

Simple task - no. Was Stalin the only man in SU who could make it - no.


-jippo

[Argo AdAm]

He then got the bright idea to declare war on the rest of the worldExactly! Stalin joined him, too. Even signed a nice little pact with ol Hitler boy :)
:cantbeli:
a NON-AGRESSION pact is NOT an ALLIANCE

might as well get half of eastern europe rather than let hitler take it all
:cantbeli:
Berkut and bison3255 It seems that both of you have no idea what Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in fact was. Time to go back to school boys ;). There was a secret protocol included in this so called "non-aggression" pact that dicribed which parts of Poland and Eastern Europe will be taken by Germans and which will be ocuppied by Soviet Union.


http://history1900s.about.com/library/weekly/aa022500a.htm
The Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact
On August 23, 1939, four days after the economic agreement was signed and a little over a week before the beginning of World War II, Ribbentrop and Molotov signed the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact. (The pact is also referred to as the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact and the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.)
Publicly, this agreement stated that the two countries - Germany and the Soviet Union - would not attack each other. If there were ever a problem between the two countries, it was to be handled amicably. The pact was supposed to last for ten years; it lasted for less than two.

What was meant by the terms of the pact was that if Germany attacked Poland, then the Soviet Union would not come to its aid. Thus, if Germany went to war against the West (especially France and Great Britain) over Poland, the Soviets were guaranteeing that they would not enter the war; thus not open a second front for Germany.

In addition to this agreement, Ribbentrop and Molotov added a secret protocol onto the pact - a secret addendum whose existence was denied by the Soviets until 1989.

The Secret Protocol

The secret protocol held an agreement between the Nazis and Soviets that greatly affected Eastern Europe. For the Soviets for agreeing to not join the possible future war, Germany was giving the Soviets the Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania). Poland was also to be divided between the two - along the Narew, Vistula, and San rivers.

The new territories gave the Soviet Union the buffer (in land) that it wanted to feel safe from an invasion from the West. It would need that buffer in 1941.
Impacts of the Pact
When the Nazis attacked Poland in the morning on September 1, 1939, the Soviets stood by and watched. Two days later, the British declared war on Germany and World War II had begun. On September 17, the Soviets rolled into eastern Poland to occupy their "sphere of influence" designated in the secret protocol.

Because of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, the Soviets did not join the fight against Germany, thus Germany was successful it its attempt to safeguard itself from a two-front war.

The Nazis and the Soviets kept the terms of the pact and the protocol until Germany's surprise attack and invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/graphics/aggresspact.JPG


http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/hitler/lectures/nazisoviet.html
III. Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact
However, Hitler was in a great hurry. An attack on Poland was scheduled for late August. By the end of July the Nazis realized that they must reach agreement with the Soviets very soon if these plans were to be safely implemented. It seems fairly clear that on the night of August 3 Hitler agreed to pay the Soviet price for a pact. Mussolini was left in the dark about his plans. The Italians learned only on August 11 that Hitler was bent on war, and the news threw them into a panic.

On the night of August 19 the Nazi-Soviet trade treaty was signed. The next day Hitler telegraphed Stalin with a request that he see Ribbentrop on August 22 or 23. When he received Stalin's assent, Hitler pounded on the wall with his fists and shouted, "I have the world in my pocket!" On the night of August 23, 1939, the pact was concluded. It contained the provision which only totalitarians could insert, that it was to take effect as soon as it was signed.

The public text of the Nazi-Soviet Pact was simply an agreement of nonaggression and neutrality, referring as a precedent to the German-Soviet neutrality pact of 1926 (Berlin Treaty). The real agreement was in a secret protocol which in effect partitioned not only Poland (along the line of the Vistula), but much of Eastern Europe. To the Soviets were allotted Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Bessarabia; to the Nazis, everything to the West of these regions, including Lithuania. Each of the two signatories was to ask the other no questions about the disposition of its own ''sphere of interest." This nonaggression pact, coupled with the trade treaty and arrangements for large-scale exchange of raw materials and armaments, amounted to an alliance.

On August 23, 1939 Hitler and Stalin signed a non-agression pact, called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Secret protocols of the treaty defined the territorial spheres of influence Germany and Russia would have after a successful invasion of Poland. Hitler had been creating justifications and laying plans for such an invasion since April.

According to the agreement, Russia would have control over Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, while Germany would gain control over Lithuania and Danzig. Poland would be partitioned into three major areas. The Warthland area, bordering Germany would be annexed outright to the German Reich, and all non-German inhabitants expelled to the east. Over 77,000 square miles of eastern Polish lands, with a population of over thirteen million would become Russian territory. The central area would become a German protectorate, named the General Gouvernement, governed by a German civil authority.

On September 1,1939 Hitler's forces invaded Poland from the west. According to plan, Soviet troops invaded Polish territory from the east on September 17. Poland surrendered on September 27. The next day Poland was partitioned according to the treaty's scheme, ending a brief twenty year period as an independent nation.

[Argo AdAm]

Some interesting pics to illustrate my texts about "Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact". They are from a joint victory parade of German and Soviet troops that took place in Brzesc Litewski (also called Brzesc nad Bugiem or in English - Brest, Brest - Brest-Litovsk) on the 22nd of September 1939 (according to other sources it could be 23th, 25th or 28the of September)

http://archiwum.zalogag.pl/online/data31/gfx/pakt00.jpg

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/gudbre.jpg
The Brigade General S. Krivoshein and Gen. H. Guderian during the common military parade in Brest. Both of them were at Kama poligon near Kazan in 1929, where Guderian was on the inspection of the tank school for the German officers.(Photos and information provided by Dmitry Pyatakhin)

http://forum.axishistory.com/files/guderian_and_x.jpg

http://www.gazetagazeta.com/artman/uploads/agresja_-_defilada.jpg

http://www.antoranz.net/CURIOSA/ZBIOR3/C0310/22-QZC07088_RCP05045-18-124-Brzesc.jpg

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje01/pic03.jpg

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_deportations/pictures/dep_N-SFriendship_270.jpg

[Lokos]

Jippo:

The point wasn't whether someone else could do it. It was whether someone else could do the same thing using different methods. If you feel it's a possibility, present your case. How would you, hypothetically, drag a mainly agricultural country totalled by an incredibly long and bloody civil war into the modern era?

Lokos

[Jippo]

Jippo:

The point wasn't whether someone else could do it. It was whether someone else could do the same thing using different methods. If you feel it's a possibility, present your case. How would you, hypothetically, drag a mainly agricultural country totalled by an incredibly long and bloody civil war into the modern era?

Lokos

?

There are millions of other ways! Finland was in the same situation after the WW2, now it has one of the top GNP's of the world. No killings here.


If you think that dictatorship, torture, genocide and fear are the only tools for progression I think you ought to go and check your head!


-jippo

[Sergeant]

I think this is not so trivial as people believe it to be. On the other hand, YES the Big S is a murdering ****head, shoulder to shoulder with Hitler and the worst of them. But there are some things to consider.

But first there have been some arguments that are not too valid. 99% of them. It's ok, internet is full of them and it's the norm.

First of all, Hitler built roads, raised the industrialization of Germany too, lift up the economy and fed the pride of German people. He had many dreams, like every German should have a car. In those times, in Germany, that was not just a little thing to dream about. That was huge. The Germans were humiliated in Versailles Treaty, and the country was in rubbles. He was no less than a hero. Look at the pre-war gatherings and all that, people cheering. But of course, we know better than this. We know our history.

What makes a difference is, that Hitler lost. Germany did not prevail as a superpower. It couldn't enjoy the benefits after all it was starting to gather around herself. If Hitler would have won, say he wouldn't have killed a single person after that, release all the prisoners, treat everyone fair, and the day war ended, that would have ended in Hitler's victory instead but no further killings or purges. Would we say well.. he was a controversial figure? I hope not! He, like the big S, were both mass murdering ****heads. Period.

This is a fact, this is how the 'west' sees it. But then come Russians, some of them say OK let's have a statue, some of them well maybe not. The interesting group is the ones who say let's have it, we admit he did bad things but he wasn't evil to the core but had some good things too some people tend to forget.

With an argument, that he did lift SU into a true superpower. However, this is said, as if it wouldn't have lifted into superpower anyway by someone else. It's lke saying, that if it wasn't for Bell, there woudln't be a phone today, and any further developments of that technology. Without him, we wouldn't have the internet, or anything at all. Or other inventors, we wouldn't have electricity. These are moot points. Someone else would have invented them, maybe a little later, maybe little differently, but they would have been invented. Or at least the odds are supporting it.

So that's why I tend to not look arguments as good ones that say 'without him..'. Without Stalin, there would have been millions of people not killed. Without Stalin someone else would have led SU in the WWII. WHo says he couldn't have handled it. Maybe getting even a swifter victory. Not killing his officers before rumbles. Seems like good strategy to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but the only good thing about Stalin's leadership in those times were that he was completely insane, where as some people call it being strong.

But.. it's not so simple as I stated in the first paragraph. The Russian people are their own people, just like we all are. They have a different concept of sacrifice. Many Russian minds think, that there are sacrifices to be made for greater goals, just like everyone else, however the tolerance and level of sacrifices usually are a bit bigger than the rest of us. Something we usually can not understand. How can they say, that this was a good thing, some sacrifice (outside WWII)? How can they go on with their lives and take the positive from the negative?

Russians have had lots of bad times in their history. SO they have learned to survive. We know them to be pretty tough bastards. You can win a battle or two against them, heck you can dominate the whole theater, but do you think you can ultimately beat them for good? I don't think so.. it would be arrogant thinking.. they are built to survive. When the last gear kicks in, they will eat grass, drink the rain water, and offer their only good food to guests coming to visit and afterwards they say it was the best time of their life. It is something different that we are used to. Sure we can survive too, but they seem to be a bit positive when it's all over, for some weird reason. Happy to survive, yes, but also seeing something else in it too, extra reason to be thankful for something that we would consider an insult or slap in the face. I guess it's the ultimate art of surviving, skills honed from years and years and years of bad experiences, and now it's like an entity of its own. This is also exactly the reason why, at this moment and in the past, no one has ever been able to totally beat Russians down.

So in this light, yes Stalin did raise SU in some level, so Russians know how to appreciate the little things better than us in things. However, like I said before, he was a mass murdering ****head and no positive thinking will ever change that fact.

When it comes down to it, they can build statues. But we can also whine about it, and we will, as it is an insult to countless people.

[Lokos]

Jippo:

So, do tell, how would you or another hypothetical leader of the SU drag the country out of the agrarian era and into modernity without sacrifices?

And, no, "... but they would have became modern anyway..." is not an argument. Because they wouldn't have become modern enough quickly enough without serious damage to civil society. It was an impossibility.

For example, the 'artificial famine' in the Ukraine... Where do you think the food went? It went to the major cities of the Ukraine and Russia, which would have been starving themselves had it not been for the food requsitions. Stalin had to choose between Ukrainian (and many Russian) peasants and the people his fledgling industries depended on: the proletariat.

Regards,
Lokos

[Kilgor]

Lenin warned the leadership of stalin, but this was covered up
kruschov, totally denouced his leadership after he died.

Any comments from the stalin supporters ?

There was no real difference between hitler and stalin, but history is written by the victor's and that is why stalin is remembered by fondness.

In many areas in russia occupied by the germans during the second world war , they were seen as liberators... not occupiers.

[bison3255]

ukraine isnt russia

[Kilgor]

For example, the 'artificial famine' in the Ukraine... Where do you think the food went? It went to the major cities of the Ukraine and Russia, which would have been starving themselves had it not been for the food requsitions. Stalin had to choose between Ukrainian (and many Russian) peasants and the people his fledgling industries depended on: the proletariat.

Regards,
Lokos

That is rubbish.

Stalin chose to punish the people by forced famines and food taken away at gunpoint.

[Kilgor]

ukraine isnt russia

back then it was in the USSR ...

[bison3255]

namely the part of the USSR that payed for the modernization

[Lokos]

Kilgor:

How is that rubbish? So, after several failed harvests and relatively miniscule food imports there should still be enough for everyone? The Ukraine was the USSR's breadbasket. Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, Stalin made a choice regarding which portion of the population was more important to him.

The 'artifical famine' was only artificial in the Ukraine. Everywhere else in the Soviet Union there was a very real famine that required radical actions from the Soviet government.

Regards,
Lokos

[Kilgor]

your term "choice" for collectivization at gunpoint is quite amusing.

The farmers often revolted against these extremely harsh measures and often burned their crops and killed cattle rather than hand it over to stalin's goons.

communist collectivization was one of the true mass killers of last century.

[Jippo]

And, no, "... but they would have became modern anyway..." is not an argument. Because they wouldn't have become modern enough quickly enough without serious damage to civil society. It was an impossibility.

Lokos


That is your opinion, I have my opinion.


-jippo

[Maciek]

The work of people in gulags make USSR a superpower and not Stalin himself.

If you miss Stalin(and his achievements) then you miss gulags also.

I'm worried about Russia and the way they will go.
Sentiment for Stalin could make an occasion for another dictatorship. :|


I do not trust Putin. Once KGB agent, always a KGB agent. ;)

[Shadow]

*errects a hitler statue in his garden*
Thanks for the Autobahn! :lol:

[Dima-RussianArms]

I think this is not so trivial as people believe it to be. On the other hand, YES the Big S is a murdering f***, shoulder to shoulder with Hitler and the worst of them. But there are some things to consider.

But first there have been some arguments that are not too valid. 99% of them. It's ok, internet is full of them and it's the norm.

First of all, Hitler built roads, raised the industrialization of Germany too, lift up the economy and fed the pride of German people. He had many dreams, like every German should have a car. In those times, in Germany, that was not just a little thing to dream about. That was huge. The Germans were humiliated in Versailles Treaty, and the country was in rubbles. He was no less than a hero. Look at the pre-war gatherings and all that, people cheering. But of course, we know better than this. We know our history.

What makes a difference is, that Hitler lost. Germany did not prevail as a superpower. It couldn't enjoy the benefits after all it was starting to gather around herself. If Hitler would have won, say he wouldn't have killed a single person after that, release all the prisoners, treat everyone fair, and the day war ended, that would have ended in Hitler's victory instead but no further killings or purges. Would we say well.. he was a controversial figure? I hope not! He, like the big S, were both mass murdering f***. Period.

This is a fact, this is how the 'west' sees it. But then come Russians, some of them say OK let's have a statue, some of them well maybe not. The interesting group is the ones who say let's have it, we admit he did bad things but he wasn't evil to the core but had some good things too some people tend to forget.

With an argument, that he did lift SU into a true superpower. However, this is said, as if it wouldn't have lifted into superpower anyway by someone else. It's lke saying, that if it wasn't for Bell, there woudln't be a phone today, and any further developments of that technology. Without him, we wouldn't have the internet, or anything at all. Or other inventors, we wouldn't have electricity. These are moot points. Someone else would have invented them, maybe a little later, maybe little differently, but they would have been invented. Or at least the odds are supporting it.

So that's why I tend to not look arguments as good ones that say 'without him..'. Without Stalin, there would have been millions of people not killed. Without Stalin someone else would have led SU in the WWII. WHo says he couldn't have handled it. Maybe getting even a swifter victory. Not killing his officers before rumbles. Seems like good strategy to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but the only good thing about Stalin's leadership in those times were that he was completely insane, where as some people call it being strong.

But.. it's not so simple as I stated in the first paragraph. The Russian people are their own people, just like we all are. They have a different concept of sacrifice. Many Russian minds think, that there are sacrifices to be made for greater goals, just like everyone else, however the tolerance and level of sacrifices usually are a bit bigger than the rest of us. Something we usually can not understand. How can they say, that this was a good thing, some sacrifice (outside WWII)? How can they go on with their lives and take the positive from the negative?

Russians have had lots of bad times in their history. SO they have learned to survive. We know them to be pretty tough bastards. You can win a battle or two against them, heck you can dominate the whole theater, but do you think you can ultimately beat them for good? I don't think so.. it would be arrogant thinking.. they are built to survive. When the last gear kicks in, they will eat grass, drink the rain water, and offer their only good food to guests coming to visit and afterwards they say it was the best time of their life. It is something different that we are used to. Sure we can survive too, but they seem to be a bit positive when it's all over, for some weird reason. Happy to survive, yes, but also seeing something else in it too, extra reason to be thankful for something that we would consider an insult or slap in the face. I guess it's the ultimate art of surviving, skills honed from years and years and years of bad experiences, and now it's like an entity of its own. This is also exactly the reason why, at this moment and in the past, no one has ever been able to totally beat Russians down.

So in this light, yes Stalin did raise SU in some level, so Russians know how to appreciate the little things better than us in things. However, like I said before, he was a mass murdering f*** and no positive thinking will ever change that fact.

When it comes down to it, they can build statues. But we can also whine about it, and we will, as it is an insult to countless people.

Could not have said/explained myself.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

The work of people in gulags make USSR a superpower and not Stalin himself.

So digging lots and lots of ditches in the ground will make a country a superpower? Or is the secret that you have to have prisoners do it? According all the chain-gang movies like Cool Hand Luke made in the USA, it is then no wonder that USA is number 1!

[Maciek]

The work of people in gulags make USSR a superpower and not Stalin himself.

So digging lots and lots of ditches in the ground will make a country a superpower? Or is the secret that you have to have prisoners do it? According all the chain-gang movies like Cool Hand Luke made in the USA, it is then no wonder that USA is number 1!

what ditches ??????????????????????????? :bash:
People in gulags worked in woods and mines, Russia could sell wood and other resorces for hard currency.

[Abbyy]

what ditches ??????????????????????????? :bash:
People in gulags worked in woods and mines, Russia could sell wood and other resorces for hard currency.

I'm in really rare occasions call someone idiot. This is that case.
We can now sell huge amount of all kinds of resources and we're not a superpower anymore eventually. Something is very wrong with your common sence.

[Kilgor]

The work of people in gulags make USSR a superpower and not Stalin himself.

So digging lots and lots of ditches in the ground will make a country a superpower? Or is the secret that you have to have prisoners do it? According all the chain-gang movies like Cool Hand Luke made in the USA, it is then no wonder that USA is number 1!

Gulag or force labor was a major part of the soviet economy during the stalinist times. The same cannot be said for american chain gangs.

Believe it or not there are differences between gulags and chain gangs.

Chain gangs are usually fed, usually clothed, usually taken care of, and usually not left outside to die of frostbite and exposure.

[Lokos]

Kilgor:

That's GULAG, not 'gulags'. Why do you insist you have knowledge in this regard when you're probably not even aware that 'gulag' is not actually a word, but an acronym?

Since you've made the assertion that GULAG labour (specifically) constituted a major part of the Soviet economy, be a good academic and show me your sources.

Lokos

[Kilgor]

http://www.osa.ceu.hu/gulag/

you can start here.

and yes i was aware it was acronym, dont be patronising.

Huge soviet infrastructure projects were built using gulag labor, so I dont know how you cannot see this as being a vital apart of the economy.

[RomanS]

http://www.osa.ceu.hu/gulag/

you can start here.

and yes i was aware it was acronym, dont be patronising.

Huge soviet infrastructure projects were built using gulag labor, so I dont know how you cannot see this as being a vital apart of the economy.
Majority of residents in Glav Upravlenie Lagerei were criminals, traitors, and lazy bastards that didnt want rebuild the ruins that German nazis left to us.

[Kilgor]

another issue too, why is stalin held in such high regard even though his ignorance of the german's and purge's of the armed forces came close to costing the soviets the war ?

There is no way the germans would have captured as much as they did if the armies had strong experienced leadership instead of killed officers.

The disaster in Finland only gave hitler more cofidence that the USSR was ripe for the picking.

[Novara]

Wasn't Stalin convicted of armed robbery and buggery? I'm just asking...so if someone could answer please?

[RomanS]

Wasn't Stalin convicted of armed robbery and buggery? I'm just asking...so if someone could answer please?
After Stalins death, he was convicted of everything that is possible, even things that are not possible.

And the messed up part is most of the people occusing him were either criminals, or criminals.