Israeli Army to blow up 13 Story Buildings

[He219]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031025/capt.sge.svg14.251003213113.photo04.default-393x260.jpg

Chanting Israeli peace demonstrators participate in a demonstration held in front of the residence of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Jerusalem, Saturday, Oct. 25, 2003. The crowd of about 4,000 gathered, listening to speakers, who called for and end to the policies of the current Israeli Government, with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. (AP Photo/Brennan Linsley)

Israeli Army About to Blow Up Tall Gaza Buildings (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20031025/wl_nm/mideast_army_gaza_dc&e=1)


GAZA (*******) - The Israeli army was temporarily evacuating an estimated 2,000 Palestinians early on Sunday as it prepared to dynamite three partly built 13-storey Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) buildings, Israeli security sources said.

The sources said the three buildings overlooked the Jewish settlement of Netzarim and were used by militant groups to observe troop movements before launching an attack on the settlement on Friday in which three soldiers were killed, two of them women. The temporary evacuation order was issued to prevent civilian casualties when the buildings were blown up, the sources said.

The explosion was expected to be so loud that Israelis living near the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) were likely to hear it.

One security official said plans to demolish the buildings were drawn up about a year ago but the decision to implement them was taken only after Friday's attack, which was claimed by the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups.

"We gave them a chance," the source said. "We expect buildings owned by the Palestinian Authority will not be used for terrorist activities, but after the raid on Friday we saw that we could not let this go on."


Accountable for the death of three Israeli soldiers because of the ability to observe the settlement of Netzarim from tall buildings...
:cantbeli:

Related story: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/mideast_dc]Israel (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/photos/recip/story/*[url) Blows Up Police Station in Gaza Raid [/url]

Edit: confirmation of building usage :oops:

[jdbjdb]

No pitty, no sympathy, for Palestinian terrorist, no pitty no sympathy for Palestinian police who do nothing to prevent terror attacks. Palestinians who are residents in the building that will be blown up, they should blame the militants, the Palestinian police, and the Palestinian Authority.

[Mortimer]

well thats 2000 more people who hate Israel who previoulsy might not have....

lol this is insane

[jdbjdb]

2000 minds that were made up along time ago.

[Deuterium]

well thats 2000 more people who hate Israel who previoulsy might not have....

lol this is insane

Gotta agree with Mort on this. Either ring the bell and let the fight begin, winner take all, or send in a couple of hundred thousand troops on BOTH sides of the fence.

[Mortimer]

well thats 2000 more people who hate Israel who previoulsy might not have....

lol this is insane

Gotta agree with Mort on this. Either ring the bell and let the fight begin, winner take all, or send in a couple of hundred thousand troops on BOTH sides of the fence.

i don't know why they havn't done it.

send in about 1000 peacekeepers to keep the two apart while they work out the roadmap.

the reason the roadmap isn't working is becuase the IDF and hamas keep stalling it.

[Deuterium]

Ahhh f*ck....I'm agreeing with Mortimer, WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it burns, it burns!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EvanL]

Quick recite 10 hail marys.

[Ratamacue]

Might want to throw in 10 Our Fathers just in case.

[He219]

Ahhh f*ck....I'm agreeing with Mortimer, WHAT HAVE I DONE!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it burns, it burns!!!!!!!!!!!!
rofl


No really, jdbjdb, this is a prime example of Collective Punnishment - or was it pre-meditated and the killing of three soldiers protecting the settlers used to justify the action?

Terrorists are terrorists. Many Palestinians sympathize with their cause. They certainly will have some reservations about their homes getting blown up for the settler's security in the Gaza Strip. The 2,000 people living in those three 13 story apartment buildings are not responsible for Israeli Settlers choosing to live in the Hornet's nest.

:(

[Ratamacue]

I'm a strong supporter of Israel, but I simply can't agree with them on this action. All they're doing is breeding more terrorists.

[Mortimer]

jdbjdb and the others will think of a way to justify it i'm sure.

[fred_engles]

I don't see what the big deal is.

Those aren't 2000 people now homeless. Those are 2000 people who needed to leave their homes for a couple hours, while the IDF destroyed the buildings (which were NOT residential). I'm sure most of the 2000 are back home by now.

[He219]

The big deal is if they were Palestinian dwellings blown up for the security of Israeli settlers colonizing in the Gaza Strip. What were those three buildings upwards of 13 stories tall built for? Targeting Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip? That seems a bit overt. Perhaps they were Arafat's new government buildings, even more symbolic.

Any additional iformation or news articles as to the buildings' planned use would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks. :)

[One?]

And once again israel violates the geneva convention/human rights... woot


The big deal is if they were Palestinian dwellings blown up for the security of Israeli settlers colonizing in the Gaza Strip. What were those three buildings upwards of 13 stories tall built for?

who gives a sh*t, the buildings no longer exist.

[S'13]

I don't see what the big deal is.

Those aren't 2000 people now homeless. Those are 2000 people who needed to leave their homes for a couple hours, while the IDF destroyed the buildings (which were NOT residential). I'm sure most of the 2000 are back home by now.

Your correct, 5000 people were evacuated from the area so they won't be harmed by the demolition of the three buildings nearby. Funny, no where did I see in the article brought by He219 that it was writing that the people were been evacuated because their houses were to be destroyed. But once everyone saw the words IDF, evacuation and demolition they started to write about "collective punishment" and " well thats 2000 more people who hate Israel who previoulsy might not have....". I hope you will all start reading more carefuly before writing your BS.

[jdbjdb]

Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not want peace! If they did want peace then maybe something could be worked out, but the point is they don't! I don't see the point in sitting around and let suicide bombers attack women and children, hoping one day that the Palestinian Authortiy will put an end to these terrorist groups. Hamas and company would continue to attack reguardles, and as bad as this sounds, Hamas and other terror groups must learn there is a price to pay with each terror attack, and that they will not accomplish their goals through terror.

[jdbjdb]

And once again israel violates the geneva convention/human rights...
You would hear more from America on this issue if the Palestinians weren't violating international law as well.

I hope you will all start reading more carefuly before writing your BS.
I'm backing Israel

[StarvingStudent47]

THE BUILDINGS THAT WERE DESTROYED WERE NOT RESIDENTIAL. THEY WERE NOT APARTMENT BUILDINGS. He219's article clearly states that they were (partly completed) Palestinian Authority buildings--administrative buildings of some sort. He incorrectly changed that to "apartment buildings" in the thread title. He219, would you like to correct that error?

Not a single residential building was destroyed in this operation. The residents were temporarily evacuated, presumably so that smoke and dust would not cause respiratory problems. The same would be done if an administrative building in Denver, Colorado was being demolished.

[S'13]

Quote:
I hope you will all start reading more carefuly before writing your BS.

I'm backing Israel

Don't worry jdbjdb, it wasn't directed at you ;)

[He219]

Alright, the articles did say the buildings were unfinished. What would three buildings upwards of 12-13 stories be used for with residents living in adjacent eight-story buildings? They could very well be PA subsidized housing projects. I removed any reference to their intended occupancy from the thread's title.

Blowing up the Police Station where the assailant supposedly ran into is one thing. The demolition of the three multi-storied buildings seems to me to be another matter.

I suppose priority for the security of Israeli settlers colonizing the Gaza Strip should be given over the construction of Palestinian infrastructure.

That is the point, but I guess it does'nt matter..

:|

[Deuterium]

What would three buildings upwards of 12-13 stories be used for with residents living in adjacent eight-story buildings?

Hell son ever been to the middle east? The most common sight is the unfinished multi-story buildings. Nothing nefarious, projects start, run out of money, etc...... The sight of concrete pillars with rebar sticking out, those red-bricks, the smell of human waste and garbage, and the call to prayer, GOD I LOVE THE MIDDLE-EAST!!!

[One?]

There is no such thing as PALESTINIAN COUNTRY ;), they never signed any treaties. So technicaly Israel is an occupying force. As an occupying force they are obliged to follow the geneva convention.

When they blew up over 150 homes in rafah a couple of weeks ago I don't think they were helping civilians. They leveled a whole camp and created more imigrants. Now those people have no where to go. What do you call that? Helping civilians?



The most common sight is the unfinished multi-story buildings. Nothing nefarious, projects start, run out of money, etc...... The sight of concrete pillars with rebar sticking out, those red-bricks, the smell of human waste and garbage, and the call to prayer, GOD I LOVE THE MIDDLE-EAST!!!

Bahah run out of money eh? thats funny. But seriously now where do you get your info? oh and the human waste part is also funny.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

"well thats 2000 more people who hate Israel who previoulsy might not have.... "
If they didnt hate israel before they certainly do now.
Did they get any compesation or anything or alternative housing?
And Israeli's think that they're going to be cool with it? I highly doubt it.
As I am writing this I bet the buildings have been long blow up...so i guess it really doesnt matter anymore :|

[He219]

Ahh, forget it! I misinterpreted the 2000 people evacuated and three buildings being blown up for residences from the initial report.

It doesn't matter anyway...

:|

[One?]

"well thats 2000 more people who hate Israel who previoulsy might not have.... "
If they didnt hate israel before they certainly do now.
Did they get any compesation or anything or alternative housing?
And Israeli's think that they're going to be cool with it? I highly doubt it.
As I am writing this I bet the buildings have been long blow up...so i guess it really doesnt matter anymore :|

Compensation? oh wait yes they will.

Well here's the deal. If you are between 16 and 55 you will go to an army base spend 27 days in barrack along with 300 other palestinians. On the way there they will beat the **** out of you. When you get there you will stay without anyone knowing where you are. Without seeing a judge, doctor or lawyer. You will get some beans once a day.

Now for woman and children they can find a camp or a tent and live in it.

[He219]

Forget it, One... They were PA buildings.

And I have been to the ME, Deuterium. I guess Jeddah is a lot nicer than the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or Lebanon or Afghanistan or Iraq....

I did see those unfinished buildings in Djibouti though :D

[StarvingStudent47]

Ahh, forget it! I misinterpreted the 2000 people evacuated and three buildings being blown up for residences from the initial report.

It doesn't matter anyway...

:|

Thanks for clearing that up as a mistake. We all make mistakes when we read articles too quickly. I'm glad you explained that; I was wondering if the mis-naming of the thread was intentional. Glad it wasn't.

And I highly doubt that those buildings were meant to be residences--not because I viewed them with my own eyes, but because of traditional language used to describe residential structures. They were referred to as "Palestinian Authority buildings". Now, if a housing project in the Bronx (funded by the local municipality) was scheduled for demolition, would journalists say "a New York city government building in the Bronx is going to be destroyed"? No. Likewise, if a Khrushchoby in Moscow (slummy apartment building built during the Khrushchev era) was going to be demolished, would a journalist say "a Communist Party building is being destroyed"? No. Likewise, the phrase "Palestinian Authority building" strongly suggests that this was some sort of administrative building for the PA, not a public housing project funded by the PA.

[StarvingStudent47]

And I have been to the ME, Deuterium. I guess Jeddah is a lot nicer than the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or Lebanon or Afghanistan or Iraq....

Just remember that Saudi Arabia controls the world's largest oil supplies, and I'm sure that their city infrastructures reflect that. Comparing Jeddah to Gaza is like comparing Manhattan to rural West Virginia.

[One?]

the buildings housed PA authortiy personell and their families. So yes people lived in those buildings.

[S'13]

There is no such thing as PALESTINIAN COUNTRY , they never signed any treaties. So technicaly Israel is an occupying force. As an occupying force they are obliged to follow the geneva convention.

When they blew up over 150 homes in rafah a couple of weeks ago I don't think they were helping civilians. They leveled a whole camp and created more imigrants. Now those people have no where to go. What do you call that? Helping civilians?

I wonder what were those 150 "homes" used for, maybe as bomb making labs? rocket and mortar making factories? weapons storage? camouflage for the entrances of smuggling tunnels?

[Mortimer]

even if people were living there the IDF woud have kicked them out

[One?]

all 150 homes where used to make bombs eh?

And the rest camoflaged the tunnels. So basicaly you justify destroying homes that are used by civilians but happen to be over a tunnel thay they have no idea it was there.

So Israel did not violate any human rights by making over a 1000 palestinians homless.

[He219]

Comparing Jeddah to Gaza is like comparing Manhattan to rural West Virginia.

Nothing wrong with the Mountain Mammas, hehe. I'm sure Gaza and the West Bank were once as beautiful as Lebanon was (is?).

Jeddah is more like comparing Saddam's Palaces with the rest of Iraq....

[One?]

Comparing Jeddah to Gaza is like comparing Manhattan to rural West Virginia.

Nothing wrong with the Mountain Mammas, hehe. I'm sure Gaza and the West Bank were once as beautiful as Lebanon was (is?).

Jeddah is more like comparing Saddam's Palaces with the rest of Iraq....

How can they build gaza if they are not allowed to bring anything in? Where the hell are they going to bring the money if they have no borders (well israel controls the borders).

Oh and lebanon was and still is the best country in the middle east. The rest of the middle east learned from lebanon. Yes there was a war but its rebuilt now.

[He219]

even if people were living there the IDF woud have kicked them out
It's not the IDF, dude! They are people like you and me and not Imperial Stormtroopers (I think ;) ). It's the enforcement of Government policies that say, we're here to stay, it's about US, not YOU....
- So Piss off!

:D

[Mortimer]

what?

[jdbjdb]

When they blew up over 150 homes in rafah a couple of weeks ago I don't think they were helping civilians. They leveled a whole camp and created more imigrants. Now those people have no where to go. What do you call that? Helping civilians?
Tell us One, how many Palestinians were killed in Rafah 1000, 2000 , 10,000? Just like Jenin right? Arabs like to destort the facts, and make it look much worse then it really is, anyone check out the bull**** the arabs are already reporting?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

sorry about my last post i too did read over it to fast :oops:
jdbjdb its true to say there is some exageration's made (probably on both sides if you nit-picked it to death). The fact is some of it has to be true..theres a grain of truth in everything..sometimes its alot harder to find it in ****.

[Mortimer]

Don't you think Israel being so "upstanding" of the two, should take the intiative to solves this instead of this Lex Tallionis?

[StarvingStudent47]

Don't you think Israel being so "upstanding" of the two, should take the intiative to solves this instead of this Lex Tallionis?

It's posts like this that turn a debate over a specific current event into the same old debate over Israel's entire history.

But to directly answer your question, you can't make peace until you have a willing partner for peace. "Taking the high road" means nothing besides sending your own children to the slaughter, until the leaders of the other side are willing to "take the high road" too.

[Mortimer]

Don't you think Israel being so "upstanding" of the two, should take the intiative to solves this instead of this Lex Tallionis?

It's posts like this that turn a debate over a specific current event into the same old debate over Israel's entire history.

But to directly answer your question, you can't make peace until you have a willing partner for peace. "Taking the high road" means nothing besides sending your own children to the slaughter, until the leaders of the other side are willing to "take the high road" too.


this debate is a reflection of Israels history. i believe they should take the intiative and be the better race so to speak.

[S'13]

this debate is a reflection of Israels history. i believe they should take the intiative and be the better race so to speak.

Your ignoring what StarvingStudent47 wrote, IT TAKES TWO TO MAKE PEACE...

[Mortimer]

look
Hamas bomb you.....you incur into palestian territory...they bomb you in retaliation..........you incur/strike...they bomb you in retaliation........etc etc

i think its called a cycle of violence or something........ :roll:

the cycle needs to be stopped.....someone has to do it. Israel should.

[S'13]

look
Hamas bomb you.....you incur into palestian territory...they bomb you in retaliation..........you incur/strike...they bomb you in retaliation........etc etc

i think its called a cycle of violence or something........

the cycle needs to be stopped.....someone has to do it. Israel should.


You think that if Israel stops defending itself the terrorist will stop killing our civilian?! :roll:
Hamas bombs our buses, restaurant and coffee shops because they want every single Jew to get out of Israel and establish an observant Muslim state. This is there policy and they admit it all the time. By the way, where are you from?

[One?]

When they blew up over 150 homes in rafah a couple of weeks ago I don't think they were helping civilians. They leveled a whole camp and created more imigrants. Now those people have no where to go. What do you call that? Helping civilians?
Tell us One, how many Palestinians were killed in Rafah 1000, 2000 , 10,000? Just like Jenin right? Arabs like to destort the facts, and make it look much worse then it really is, anyone check out the bull**** the arabs are already reporting?


I will not even argue with you because you will deny anything I say. So basicaly there is no point of arguing. You're gonna say that the IDF blew up 2 houses in rafah, killed one militant in jenin, and never touched a civilian, blew up any civlian houses, torture anyone because they respect human right laws.



look
Hamas bomb you.....you incur into palestian territory...they bomb you in retaliation..........you incur/strike...they bomb you in retaliation........etc etc

i think its called a cycle of violence or something........

the cycle needs to be stopped.....someone has to do it. Israel should.


You think that if Israel stops defending itself the terrorist will stop killing our civilian?! :roll:
Hamas bombs our buses, restaurant and coffee shops because they want every single Jew to get out of Israel and establish an observant Muslim state. This is there policy and they admit it all the time. By the way where are you from?


Hamas and Islamic Jihad stopped had a cease fire but after Israel continued targeting the Hamas leadership they started bombing again. So ISRAEL does not want peace. They bomb your resturants and buses because they want to disturn your lifestyle like you disturb theirs. You dont allow their children to go to schools. You have 24 hour curfews, dont allow ambulances to go from point a to point b without giving them a hard time and on many occasions they person they were trying to save died. You do not allow them to do anything, and you expect not to retaliate?


You captured thousands of palestinians from all ages don't you expect their brothers, sisters, and sons to retaliate?

[Mortimer]

You think that if Israel stops defending itself the terrorist will stop killing our civilian?! :roll:
Hamas bombs our buses, restaurant and coffee shops because they want every single Jew to get out of Israel and establish an observant Muslim state. This is there policy and they admit it all the time. By the way where are you from?

Your right to a certain extent however i think that a lot of the recent fighting was started by Israel (Sharon's little visit). While you would not totally stop Hamas by not retaliating it would ceraintly reduce the fighting.

Its to complicated to really form opinions on this matter, i could go either way but i just think Isreal being the most powerful should do a bit more...and that doesn't mean incursions.

I am Australian


Hamas and Islamic Jihad stopped had a cease fire but after Israel continued targeting the Hamas leadership they started bombing again. So ISRAEL does not want peace. They bomb your resturants and buses because they want to disturn your lifestyle like you disturb theirs. You dont allow their children to go to schools. You have 24 hour curfews, dont allow ambulances to go from point a to point b without giving them a hard time and on many occasions they person they were trying to save died. You do not allow them to do anything, and you expect not to retaliate?


You captured thousands of palestinians from all ages don't you expect their brothers, sisters, and sons to retaliate?

good point

[jdbjdb]

Hamas and Islamic Jihad stopped had a cease fire but after Israel continued targeting the Hamas leadership they started bombing again.
The terrorist groups were still planning suicide attacks against Israel.

[Mortimer]

but they didn't do any.....

[S'13]

Hamas and Islamic Jihad stopped had a cease fire but after Israel continued targeting the Hamas leadership they started bombing again. So ISRAEL does not want peace. They bomb your resturants and buses because they want to disturn your lifestyle like you disturb theirs. You dont allow their children to go to schools. You have 24 hour curfews, dont allow ambulances to go from point a to point b without giving them a hard time and on many occasions they person they were trying to save died. You do not allow them to do anything, and you expect not to retaliate?


You captured thousands of palestinians from all ages don't you expect their brothers, sisters, and sons to retaliate?

The reason there are curfews is so terrorists won't be able to go out and murder. Ambulances are stoped and checked because they are used to smuggle and weapons, explosive and terrorist. If they stoped doing so we wouldn't be stoping them in order to check them. The only reason the Palestinians are suffering and don't already have a state of there own is because of the actions of the terrorists among them and there support of them. Every times Israel participates in a so called "cease fire" a bus is been blown up.

[Mortimer]

if you won't listen to us...listen to them

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031025/capt.sge.svg14.251003213113.photo04.default-393x260.jpg

[One?]

S-13 thank you for agreeing with me that Israel does indeed stop ambulances and risk killing civilians, and sets curfews on mass amounts of civilians, thus a mass punishment. All these clearly VIOLATE the geneva convention.

Thank you again...


if you won't listen to us...listen to them

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031025/capt.sge.svg14.251003213113.photo04.default-393x260.jpg

When Rabin listened to them he was assasinated!

Both Sharon and Natanyaho said that Arafat will NEVER have a palestinian state. It was the speech the night of elections when Rabin won. I think it was in "peace square?"(not sure of the place)

[S'13]

S-13 thank you for agreeing with me that Israel does indeed stop ambulances and risk killing civilians, and sets curfews on mass amounts of civilians, thus a mass punishment. All these clearly VIOLATE the geneva convention.

Thank you again...



We are using these methods in order to defend our civilian and it is the Arabs own fault that we have to use them. I wonder what does the geneva convention tell us about the blowing up buses and restaurants and the deliberate killing of civilian.

[S'13]

When Rabin listened to them he was assasinated!

When Rabin listened he also brought a catastrophe on his people. These people who want peace at any cost are a minority in Israel. Everyone in Israel including me wants peace, a person who doesn't want peace is insane but what I want is true peace which will grant Israels existence as a Jewish state and the security of it's people.

[StarvingStudent47]

S-13 thank you for agreeing with me that Israel does indeed stop ambulances and risk killing civilians, and sets curfews on mass amounts of civilians, thus a mass punishment. All these clearly VIOLATE the geneva convention.

Thank you again...

From a Ha'aretz (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/353507.html) article on the building demolition:


Temporary evacuation orders was issued to some
2,000 residents of nearby houses, to prevent
civilian casualties when the buildings were
blown up. The residents were allowed to return
to their homes after the operation was
completed.

One security official said plans to demolish the
buildings were drawn up about a year ago but
the decision to implement them was taken only
after Friday's attack, which was claimed by
Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

"We gave them a chance," the source said. "We
expect buildings owned by the Palestinian
Authority will not be used for terrorist
activities, but after the raid on Friday we saw
that we could not let this go on."

The source said the two gunmen behind Friday's
attack had spent weeks monitoring patrols and
troop movements in the heavily guarded
settlement in central Gaza from the towers.

The militants carried out their attack as fog
shrouded the settlement early on Friday
morning. One militant was killed and the other
escaped.

Senior security sources said all the several
hundred settlers living at Netzarim were taking
refuge in bomb shelters until the Gaza
buildings had been blown up.

Hundreds of Israeli troops, including demolition
experts and humanitarian liaison officers, were
deployed in the operation to evacuate residents
living in a 400 meter radius of the three
buildings.

...

Palestinian ambulances were allowed to evacuate
elderly people from their homes.

Israel wouldn't stop ambulances in combat areas if Palestinians didn't use ambulances to ferry guns in and terrorist VIPs out. And when Palestinian ambulances are stopped, Israeli medical personnel tend to Palestinian wounded (just like American troops treated Iraqi wounded in Baghdad, etc).


if you won't listen to us...listen to them

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031025/capt.sge.svg14.251003213113.photo04.default-393x260.jpg
Amazing, isn't it? Israel has hippies. There's a revelation. America has a decent number of hippies too, and we don't let them overrule the President, Congress, and the Pentagon. In all fairness, though, could you please show me a picture of hundreds of Palestinians rallying to end suicide bombings and terrorist attacks? I'd sure like to see that. No? The only rallies you have are Hamas marches, calls for Saddam to launch biochem weapons at Tel Aviv, and cheering mobs on 9/11? Well there goes Israel's Partner for Peace...

By the way, look closely at that photo. How old are those people? High school at the oldest. Man, when I was 14, I too thought holding hands and singing would solve everything. They're young, optimistic, and most of all naive.


When Rabin listened to them he was assasinated!
Rabin was shot down by a radical nutcase. We've had dozens of assassinations and assassination attempts in the USA too, from JFK (successful) to Gerald Ford; from Reagan to Clinton. These assassins and assassin-wannabes do NOT reflect American public opinion. The same is true for the Kach b------ who killed Rabin.


Both Sharon and Natanyaho said that Arafat will NEVER have a palestinian state. It was the speech the night of elections when Rabin won. I think it was in "peace square?"(not sure of the place)
Actually, Sharon has repeatedly (before and after the election) called for an eventual two-state solution, even using the term "occupation" for the current situation in the West Bank. He has only one condition: that terrorism must stop first. That's ALL he wants!!! All major Israeli political parties (Likud, Labor, and Shinui) agree that if terrorism stopped, an independent Palestinian state would spring up immediately.

[One?]

I'm gonna do my best to find the speech by natanyaho and sharon.


Israel wouldn't stop ambulances in combat areas if Palestinians didn't use ambulances to ferry guns in and terrorist VIPs out. And when Palestinian ambulances are stopped, Israeli medical personnel tend to Palestinian wounded (just like American troops treated Iraqi wounded in Baghdad, etc).

That is the most bull**** answer I have ever heard in my life. Ambulances were crushed my Israeli tanks. Medics were stripped and searched. Tens of woman died while stuck in ambulances waiting to give birth. AMnesty international and the red cross sent many complains to the Israeli government but they still do iti anyways. During the ramallah seige and Jenin palestinians were left to die on the streets because they wouldn't allow ambulances to get close. And I have seen footage of medics being searched and they made them unload everything in the ambulance including the wounded.


Previous prisoners in Israeli jails complained about mistreatment, and human right violations, and they don't recieve any medical attention. One lebanese prisoner was beaten so bad that his ribs were broken and he was bleeding. He was left for 42 days hand cuffed to a window (sleep deprivation Israeli style.) without recieving any medical attention. It came to a point where worms were eating away his wound. The only thing that cured him was the hot water that was used during interogation. For those who dont know Israeli's usualy throw a bucket of freezing water followed by a bucket of hot water on the person. These are some torture methods. Please don't tell me that Israel is humanitarian.


And one last thing PLEASE dont compare the Marines to the IDF. At least when my brother was injured in lebanon the marines did everything they can to help him out. While the IDF soldeir took away the botle of water from my mom and emptied it infront of her.

[S'13]

That is the most bull**** answer I have ever heard in my life. Ambulances were crushed my Israeli tanks. Medics were stripped and searched. Tens of woman died while stuck in ambulances waiting to give birth. AMnesty international and the red cross sent many complains to the Israeli government but they still do iti anyways. During the ramallah seige and Jenin palestinians were left to die on the streets because they wouldn't allow ambulances to get close. And I have seen footage of medics being searched and they made them unload everything in the ambulance including the wounded.


Like I wrote before, if the Palestinians didn't use the ambulances to smuggle explosives, weapons and terrorists we wouldn't have to search them and the paramedics. The Palestinains have no problem hiding an explosive belt under the stretcher on which a pregnant women is laying down, this explosive belt will later kill 15-20 people maybe even another pregnant women in a restaurant.
In fact the palestinians have no problem using mosques and hospitals to house weapons, they even use them as shooting positions. so much for "freedom fighters".

[jdbjdb]

Your right to a certain extent however i think that a lot of the recent fighting was started by Israel (Sharon's little visit).
Sharon had every right to visit the Temple Mount, after all, it belongs to the jews and not the arabs or Palestinians.

[He219]

THE BUILDINGS THAT WERE DESTROYED WERE NOT RESIDENTIAL. THEY WERE NOT APARTMENT BUILDINGS. He219's article clearly states that they were (partly completed) Palestinian Authority buildings--administrative buildings of some sort. He incorrectly changed that to "apartment buildings" in the thread title. He219, would you like to correct that error?

Not a single residential building was destroyed in this operation. The residents were temporarily evacuated, presumably so that smoke and dust would not cause respiratory problems. The same would be done if an administrative building in Denver, Colorado was being demolished

And I highly doubt that those buildings were meant to be residences--not because I viewed them with my own eyes, but because of traditional language used to describe residential structures. They were referred to as "Palestinian Authority buildings". Now, if a housing project in the Bronx (funded by the local municipality) was scheduled for demolition, would journalists say "a New York city government building in the Bronx is going to be destroyed"? No. Likewise, if a Khrushchoby in Moscow (slummy apartment building built during the Khrushchev era) was going to be demolished, would a journalist say "a Communist Party building is being destroyed"? No. Likewise, the phrase "Palestinian Authority building" strongly suggests that this was some sort of administrative building for the PA, not a public housing project funded by the PA.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=451170

An Israeli tank manouvers as in the background, two of three Palestinian apartment buildings are seen near the Jewish settlement of Netzarim, south of Gaza City in the Gaza Strip in this Oct. 5, 2003 file photo. The 12-story empty apartment buildings were blown up and destroyed completely by Israeli forces early Sunday Oct. 26, 2003 in retaliation for a Palestinian attack early Friday at an army outpost in the Jewish settlement of Netzarim that left three soldiers dead, including two women. Israel said the buildings were used to plan Friday's attack. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa, file)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=451104

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=451083

An Israeli military position is seen guarding the Netzarim Jewish settlement as palestinians stand on the remains of an apartment building that was destroyed during an Israeli Army operation , south of Gaza City, Sunday, Oct. 26, 2003. Israeli forces retaliated Sunday for a deadly attack by militants on a nearby Jewish settlement, blowing up three large, empty buildings in Gaza after evacuating 2,000 Palestinians from their homes. (AP Photo/Kevin Frayer)

I guess my Civil Engineering analysis that 13 Story Terrorist Apartments were responsible for the killing of Israeli Soldiers that guard a handful of nearby Israeli Settlers in the colonization of the Occupied Gaza Strip (a HORNET's Nest because of it) was in error. This was civilian infrastructure.

But then again, we all make mistakes.

;)

[S'13]

I guess my Civil Engineering analysis that 13 Story Terrorist Apartments were responsible for the killing of Israeli Soldiers that guard a handful of nearby Israeli Settlers in the colonization of the Occupied Gaza Strip (a HORNET's Nest because of it) was in error. This was civilian infrastructure.

But then again, we all make mistakes.

Actually you were correct, the building was used to gather intelligence about the settlement before the Palestinians attacked it.

[He219]

Actually you were correct, the building was used to gather intelligence about the settlement before the Palestinians attacked it.

Damn them for snooping onto the Netzarim settlement. The Palestinians shouldn't have built those apartments so close to the settlers and risk having it used by terrorists to spy over Israeli military positions.

;)

[S'13]

Damn them for snooping onto the Netzarim settlement. The Palestinians shouldn't have built those apartments so close to the settlers and risk having it used by terrorists to spy over Israeli military positions.

Damn them for not eradicating the terrorism in the first place and even helping the terrorists.

[UoUo]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=451170

Once again you throwing to the air uncorrect information....

The buildings were empty!

[IDFM203]

Whoa what happened here………..

Ok a few observations and commnts that I have so far after reading all this.


First one is that he219 is starting his hypocrisy all over again. He defends all day the U.S. “crimes” (which I don’t call them that, but that’s what the same critics of Israel also call the U.S. actions “crimes”) and occupation in Iraq (and in afganisthn) which has killed much more people and has destroyed much more infrastructure in much less time as well. but yet when Israel is doing the same thing or even less and yet he criticizes it from today till tomorrow.
Another example, the U.S. has cut down plenty of olive trees in Iraq to make it safer but I guarantee you if Israel were to do the same thing that he would be all up in arms.

Like I clearly pointed out to you last time (which you went silent in not responding after) your hypocrisy is clear for all to see.

At least the euros or the Australians are balanced in their false criticisms. They I can respect much more then someone who defends criticisms when it is directed at him but yet goes with them when they are directing the same types of criticisms when it involves Israel.


Now onto that circle of violence argument. This implies that there is a never ending circle just going round and round. Well the point is that if Israel left the so called circle and stopped responding, then all you would have is a straight line of the Palestinians killing and not a cessation of the violence or the circle at all. Israel during the Oslo years gave every city and town to where the Palestinians had over 95 percent of their own lives under their own control and barak was even going to give them much more but all throughout that time they never stopped the killing while Israel did. Then after refusing barak and not at least countering with another offer, the Palestinians started this war (and don’t give me that shorn bs for that is no excuse to start a war and to start targeting and killing man women and children).

I was a soldier throughout the first two years of the war and for the first year we pretty much stood there like sitting ducks, getting shot at all the time. Only occasionally responding. Then as the war got hotter, we were allowed to respond more. We never purposely targeted innocent civilians. The Palestinians have never stopped (even during the Oslo years) purposely targeting civilians.



As for the supposed making more people hate us argument. Well that a fallacies argument to make for it assumes for example that there were ten Palestinians who hated us and then as a result of Israel responding there are now 20 who hate us. Well that’s false for I surmise to you that a large portion (defiantly a majority) of the Arab world (which includes the Palestinians) hate us no matter what we offer them and that hatred has been at its high point now for years and hasn’t really fluctuated much regardless of what Israel does or doesn’t do.
This is their constant struggle for the whole land of Israel and not just the west bank and gaza.

Anyways I can go on but I guess I will just save it for after the predictable unrealistic chumsky like responses.

Shalom to all. :D

[He219]

Once again you throwing to the air uncorrect information....
How so? Did I say the appartments were occupied? They indeed were appartments after all.

And I am not a hypocrite for supporting US policy as you wish to portray me, idfm203. The US is REBUILDING Iraq under fire instead of tearing it down as a threat to our security. The irony is that by building relationships we are promoting peaceful coexistence. You might not like me for being critical, but that certailny doesn't mean I don't like you. I truly wish the Israeli and Palestininan peoples to live in peace, together and in symbiotic coexistence.

My point: There is no way for Peace to take root with views like these:


Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) told his Cabinet he would try to persuade European leaders not to support an unofficial peace proposal reached by Palestinian officials and Israeli opposition figures with Swiss backing.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=4&u=/ap/20031026/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

The Palestinians will only resent continued domination and use terrorism and Islam to justify their quest for independence.

You have to agree that without pursuing all paths for peace, there can be no peace!

[S'13]

My point: This is no way for Peace to take root.

Your right, when buses and coffe shops are been blown up there is no chance for negotiation.


You have to agree that without pursuing all paths for peace, there can be no peace!

Peace at any cost? I'm sure most Israelis won't agree to that. Maybe you don't know this but Israel is a democracy (one of the many things which differentiates it from it's neighbors), and only the elected government can make concessions in the name of the Israeli people. A great majority of the Israeli people oppose this "peace proposal" which was made behind their backs.

[He219]

Then don't expect there to be peace....

The cost for peace between Israel and Egypt is being subsidized by the US taxpayer through mutual assistance programs. If we can do it for peace, why not do it for peace with the Palestinians?

If the consensus doesn't feel that way, then you have to be prepared and accept the reality of not having any peace at all.



:|

[IDFM203]

Once again you throwing to the air uncorrect information....
How so? Did I say the appartments were occupied? first of all you clearly (and falsely) insinuated that in your initial postings.



And I am not a hypocrite for supporting US policy as you wish to portray me, we are not talking about policy here for both situations require a bit of a different policy goal

With Iraq it is to rebuild it and leave it for them. with Israel it is to defend and to survive and to remain a nation living in a true peace and then to perhaps leave it for them as well but first, national safety (from constant attacks, no matter what Israel has offered or giving to them) is the primary goal which the U.S. does not have..

No, your hypocritical for supporting U.S. actions on the ground which have been the same or worse as Israel’s actions in the same types of environments.



idfm203. The US is REBUILDING Iraq under fire instead of tearing it down as a threat to our security. yes that’s the gaol but it did in fact at first tear down a lot 9mcuh more the Israel ever did) before it even embarked on that goal and it is in fact tearing down and killing even more now.

Israel too at first tried not to do this. It in fact gave over land and gave over more land (every Palestinian city and town where they lived were given to them) and was even in the process of giving more but the killings never stopped and Israel was forced to defend itself

I mean I certainly didn’t see the U.S. tried to build any coexistence with the taliban or osama bin lauden now did I ?? instead of invading and occupying and killing afganhis.


You might not like me for being critical, no I don’t like you for being hypocritical.


I truly wish the Israeli and Palestininan peoples to live in peace, together and in symbiotic coexistence. I wish for that and a lot of other things as well ( a nice rolls Royce would be nice as well) point here is that its one thing to wish for something and its another thing to live in the actuall reality.

Ever since its modern founding it tried to live in coexistence and was rejected on the ground all the time.

It is not the fault of Israel for trying when the Arabs refuse to live in any real coexistence.



My point: There is no way for Peace to take root with views like these: your point is not based in the real reality of the middle east and why the Arabs are really fighting.


Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) told his Cabinet he would try to persuade European leaders not to support an unofficial peace proposal reached by Palestinian officials and Israeli opposition figures with Swiss backing. yes that’s because no Israeli after what they saw with oslo is willing to support a another suicidal process that is not supported in reality by most Palestinians. Those few ones that did, did so without the real support of the Palestinian people and we already see what happens when Israel signs deals and gives away land when it is not really supported by most Palestinians for the killing and targeting of innocent Israeli civilians never stopped even during the Oslo period.


and use terrorism and Islam to justify their quest for independence. yes exactly they will do this for their goal of “independence” of the whole land of Israel as most of them support.


You have to agree that without pursuing all paths for peace, there can be no peace! Israel tried everything already. It cannot be expected to commit national suicide voluntarily.

shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Then don't expect there to be peace....

The cost for peace between Israel and Egypt is being subsidized by the US taxpayer through mutual assistance programs. If we can do it for peace, that’s not any real peace. Egypt would not have attacked Israel regardless for they can’t defeat them on the battle field (well perhaps now with all the American weapons they are getting but thats another topic).

But there is no peace from the Egyptian people. Their press is more anti-Semitic then the nazi one in the 30’s and most people carry on with a hatred of Israel as if there never was any agreement signed.


why not do it for peace with the Palestinians? well Israel tried when it gave away land but all it got back were more killings.

As for money well we all know where the U.S. and E.U. money really went when it was given over to the Palestinians. (Hint: it didn’t for the most part go to any peaceful purposes)



If the consensus doesn't feel that way, then you have to be prepared and accept the reality of not having any peace at all.
no, the Israeli consensus perhaps feels that way, for they realise now the unfortunate reality that it might take a thousand years till the Arab world really comes to grips with Israel’s right to exist, no matter what Israel does or offers them.

shalom :D

[jdbjdb]

Those were bigger then I thought they would be, how much expolsives did they use and how long did it take to set it up? What did Arafat say about it?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

The USA demolished a laarge apartment building in Iraq because it was uded as sniping posts on US base there.

Same here, only the building were long-time deserted and the targets were Jews. The PA was long warned by the IDF to prevent terrorists to use those building but the PA did nothing. Only after the IDF paid in the blood of 3 young soldiers, it finally destroyed those towers.

No civilians were hurt during the operation, the 3 towers were deserted and the building stopped long time ago.

IDF action is justified even under the international law and the 4th Geneva Convension.



I'm sorry that there are people here who care more for a piles of bricks than the lives of Jews. :(

[He219]

Yes, US political policy is in-itself hypocritical due to special interests. If there is bloodshed and destruction, then the purpose must be for freedom of individual self-determination. Mine is threatened by terrorism and extremism. Afghanis were denied that under the Taliban. Iraqis were denied that under Saddam. That is my personal ideology. It may be idyllic and may well contradict US gov't. policy, but not to pursue that would contradict my own values, as I support the Israeli populus' right to self determination and simultaneously that of the Palestinians.

Not expressing this would undermine the promotion of individual thought that I hold dear by defending the US Constitution and the American Spirit.

I support our troops securing a peaceful place in the world for Americans - as well as others - and you are indeed seeking the same for yourself. The Palestinian People are not the fundamentalist Taliban or a murderous tyrannical dictatorial regieme as Iraq had with Saddam. The Palestinians are increasingly supporting terrorism to strike back at their inability to exersize any self-determination. It is partially their own fault for sympathizing with fundamentalist ideologies. However, worldwide sympathies are lost through violent resistance. Palestinians have a right to exist with an equal voice as Israel has won it's independence in violent struggle for a homeland.

idfm203, your opinions are valued and broaden the understanding of ideologies in this forum. I appreciate that.

Simultaneously, the entrenchment of political views is so vehmenent that we find ourselves in a stalemate of situational reality; there is no peace where it could be.

There will be violence from the polarized factions during the pursuit of peace. Without the pursuit of peace, the violence will continue indefinately.

:hug:

[Haiw]

well, no offence, but just think of this;

the building was just there...standing..in it's own little terroritory...
and there come the settlers....and it has to be taken down to protect the newly arrived settlers cus they are being attacked...

it's actually rather surprising i have hardly heard ANYTHING about the israeli 'settlement-policy'....

[UoUo]

"Then come the settelers..." little strange to say that..since them are there since 1967.

[IDFM203]

Yes, US political policy is in-itself hypocritical due to special interests. If there is bloodshed and destruction, then the purpose must be for freedom of individual self-determination. :yes U.S. policy is indeed hypocritical and your defence of its actions on the ground is also hypocritical.


Mine is threatened by terrorism and extremism. :as is mine but on a much more often and close bases
Besides the daily attacks on Israeli soil, Israel gets a sept11 style attack in terms of actuall percentage with relation to Israel’s small population about once every month!!


Afghanis were denied that under the Taliban. Iraqis were denied that under Saddam. That is my personal ideology. :yes but the U.S. did not attack those countries for those people sake, no, it did it out of defence of the U.S.

And they most certainly have killed more people and destroyed more infrastructure in less time then Israel did.



It may be idyllic and may well contradict US gov't. policy, :whether you support or contradict U.S. policy is moot point for you support the actions on the ground that the U.S. has done which has been the same or even worse then what Israel has done in the same types of environments.


but not to pursue that would contradict my own values, as I support the Israeli populus' right to self determination and simultaneously that of the Palestinians. : yes I agree with that on principle but that is not has not been nor is it the present reality due to the Arab (and Palestinians) refusal to really and sincerely accept the Jewish state and its very existence.


Not expressing this would undermine the promotion of individual thought that I hold dear by defending the US Constitution and the American Spirit. :yes I understand that but at the same time you have to face reality and not just live in your ideals which unfortunately don’t fit the harsh realty that Israel finds itself in.


The Palestinian People are not the fundamentalist Taliban or a murderous tyrannical dictatorial regieme as Iraq had with Saddam. : how they treat their own people is moot point here, the bottom line is that a majority of the Palestinians support the people that murder and kill for the gaol of a destruction of Israel and that hasn’t changed no matter what Israel has done or offered them.



The Palestinians are increasingly supporting terrorism to strike back at their inability to exersize any self-determination: well that’s a fallacy for during Oslo they had over 95 percent of their lives under their own control and where going to even get more but all throughout that time they never stopped targeting and killing innocent Israeli civilians.

That increasingly term is a fallacies argument as I have explained in my prior posts.


idfm203, your opinions are valued and broaden the understanding of ideologies in this forum. I appreciate that. : I also most certainly appreciate differing views (I wouldn’t be on this site if I didn’t) but what I draw the line on is hypocritical ones. You have clearly put forth hypocritical viewpoints.

shalom :D

[jdbjdb]

The USA demolished a laarge apartment building in Iraq because it was uded as sniping posts on US base there.
We also dropped 3 bunker busting bombs on a apartment complex cause we thought Saddam was in there and he wasn't.

[IDFM203]

The USA demolished a laarge apartment building in Iraq because it was uded as sniping posts on US base there.
We also dropped 3 bunker busting bombs on a apartment complex cause we thought Saddam was in there and he wasn't.just to add in a civilain area!!!

[jdbjdb]

We truly thought he was there and he was, but he had left a few minutes earlier, we also knew there were innocents in the area but decided it was worth it to get Saddam, we could have used more but decided 3 bunker busters were enough.

[usa320]

I say a European and Asian task force under NATO or UN command should be sent there to keep the two away from each other, with air, intelligence and logistical support provided by CENTCOM assets.

[jdbjdb]

The French and Germans are still pissed at us for not getting the UN Security coucil ok. So they wont help out in Iraq, and for that reason it will hurt the Iraqi people more then The United States. The French president is Beavis and the German Chancellor is Butthead rofl

[citizen-k]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031025/capt.sge.svg14.251003213113.photo04.default-393x260.jpg

Chanting Israeli peace demonstrators participate in a demonstration held in front of the residence of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Jerusalem, Saturday, Oct. 25, 2003. The crowd of about 4,000 gathered, listening to speakers, who called for and end to the policies of the current Israeli Government, with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. (AP Photo/Brennan Linsley)

Israeli Army About to Blow Up Tall Gaza Buildings (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20031025/wl_nm/mideast_army_gaza_dc&e=1)


GAZA (*******) - The Israeli army was temporarily evacuating an estimated 2,000 Palestinians early on Sunday as it prepared to dynamite three partly built 13-storey Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) buildings, Israeli security sources said.

The sources said the three buildings overlooked the Jewish settlement of Netzarim and were used by militant groups to observe troop movements before launching an attack on the settlement on Friday in which three soldiers were killed, two of them women. The temporary evacuation order was issued to prevent civilian casualties when the buildings were blown up, the sources said.

The explosion was expected to be so loud that Israelis living near the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) were likely to hear it.

One security official said plans to demolish the buildings were drawn up about a year ago but the decision to implement them was taken only after Friday's attack, which was claimed by the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups.

"We gave them a chance," the source said. "We expect buildings owned by the Palestinian Authority will not be used for terrorist activities, but after the raid on Friday we saw that we could not let this go on."


Accountable for the death of three Israeli soldiers because of the ability to observe the settlement of Netzarim from tall buildings...
:cantbeli:

Related story: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/mideast_dc]Israel (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/photos/recip/story/*[url) Blows Up Police Station in Gaza Raid [/url]

Edit: confirmation of building usage :oops:

And now for the REAL story:

1) those buildings were empty (i.e. NO BODY LIVED THERE) - so nobody was left homeless after they were blown up!

2) People were TEMPORARLY avacuated from the area so they won't get hurt during the operation!

GET IT?

[He219]

You're still on this topic?

Those were uninhabited and nearly-completed housing projects financed by the Palestinian Authority to relieve overcrowding in nearby Gaza City. Those buildings were are also raked with artillery fire (See Today's Pic's Oct.26 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4754)), most likely Israeli fire to counter militants observing them from the structures. I am not able to verify the range between the settlement and those destroyed buildings to assert if sniper fire could have been an issue. There has been no mention other than charges of using the vacant structure as a forward observation post for Palestinian militants in planning their attacks on the nearby Israeli colony.

The issue is that with all the fighting between militants and IDF forces defending the settlers of the nearby settlement, Palestinians were unable to habitate those structures for the security of Israeli civilians occupying the area nearby. Ultimately they were blown up for the settler's (and the IDF batallion guarding them) security and to the loss of the Palestinians' projected use.

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=451447


A view from atop an Israeli army guard tower overlooking Palestinian buildings demolished earlier in the day, inside a small army base contiguous with the Netzarim settlement, several kilometers inside the Gaza Strip, Sunday, Oct. 26, 2003. The buildings were destroyed in response to Friday's attack on Netzarim by Palestinian militants which left three soldiers dead. Israel claims the buildings were used as a hideout. (AP Photo/Brennan Linsley)
I have no issue with you, just enforcement of policies that prioritize the Israeli settlers by selectively blowing up Palestinian dwellings and leaving other tall buildings adjacent (see image above) intact that equally could be used for observation purposes. It's probably next.

Have a great day!

:hug:

[IDFM203]

Ultimately they were blown up for the settler's (and the IDF batallion guarding them) security and to the loss of the Palestinians' projected use. no they were blown up because they were already used from the Palestinians to fire at Israelis period!!!

You can have whatever view you want but anyone who has been to the middle east and especially the west bank and gaza will see numerous half completed and half empty buildings that stand there for years as such.

Of course all of a sudden this one was about to be used…yeah bull****!!

The only thing it was used for was cover for Palestinians shooting at Israeli civilians and army.



I have no issue with you, well I have a issue with your hypocrisy of where you defend the U.S. dropping bunker buster bombs on buildings to go after one man or one who defends the U.S. from cutting down trees so the U.S. military can have a better view of things, you defend the U.S. also destroying infrastructure etc.. And yet when Israel does the same or less (it never used anything close to a bunker buster, and it has killed much less and destroyed much less infrastructure) you criticize the very simular Israeli actions.

That’s hypocritical!!!!




just enforcement of policies that prioritize the Israeli settlers
by selectively blowing up Palestinian dwellings no, those buildings were used to kill Israelis.

Secondly this is not a matter of prioritzing for if no Palestinian had used that building to kill, that building would still be standing!!!.



and leaving other tall buildings adjacent (see image above) intact that equally could be used for observation purposes. well if Palestinians use that to kill then action might need to be taken.

Human life is worth a hundred times more then mere empty bricks and half completed buildings

And yes jewfish life is as well whether you agree with that or not.

Shalom. :D

[He219]

Human life is worth a hundred times more then mere empty bricks and half completed buildings

I absolutely agree with you on that one, idfm203. :D

Here is where we disagree:


The decision on the outposts came despite the government's earlier pledge to remove them as part of a stalled U.S.-backed peace plan. Palestinians complained that Israel is systematically undermining the "road map" peace plan.

Dismantling dozens of unauthorized settlement outposts was one of Israel's obligations under the road map, which was launched in June with great fanfare but quickly bogged down over disagreements and violence.

Source (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20031027/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians)

The settlements intrude on the Palestinian's right to self-determination. They have become Garrisons to defend the settlers - who claim a biblical right to those lands. If that settlement wasn't there, no shooting, and the apartments would be occupied. Israel's borders are hard enough to defend, yet alone every firebase in the occupied territiories.

The US is in Iraq and Afghanistan not to colonize them for territorial land aquisitions as the settlements and the construction of the separation fence on Palestinian land does. That is the big difference for the US's reason in fighting terrorism with that of the Israels. I do not debate the nuances of collateral damage one bit. Indeed the US does everything on a larger scale. It is about intent. We are helping the Afghanis and Iraqis. You are not helping the Palestinians. Therefore you can not expect peace.

Have a great day my friend. I've got to get back to work...

:hug:

[IDFM203]

Human life is worth a hundred times more then mere empty bricks and half completed buildings

I absolutely agree with you on that one, idfm203. :D well it doesn’t seem that way so far, for regardless of what you think of Israeli settlements, human life comes first and there is no justification for killing people because they live in settlements. Their life is not worth less because they do

And you defending Palestinian gun man that kill them and then bashing Israel for destroying the empty building that gave them the cover to do so, is coming across as you value mere bricks more then you do human lives.


The decision on the outposts came despite the government's earlier pledge to remove them as part of a stalled U.S.-backed peace plan. Palestinians complained that Israel is systematically undermining the "road map" peace plan. ok here is where I get of the dream land fantasies that are not based on any factual realities and face reality. That road map is about as worthless as the oslo process for with the oslo process we saw where Israel turned over every city and town and was about to give more but yet the killings never stopped

I guess we have now brought this topic to the crux of the conflict.

I and many other Israeli’s believe especially based on the past events (the killings that never stopped even after Israel gave over land and was going to give over much more) that a majority of the Arab world and the Palestinians when they talk about ending occupation they mean the “occupation” of the Jews of the whole Israel and they want to see all the Jews removed (killed) from the whole of Israel. (Of course they don’t say that in English but they sure do in Arabic to their own people)


Dismantling dozens of unauthorized settlement outposts was one of Israel's obligations under the road map, no there is no dismantling of anything as long as terror and the killings continue. Even throughtout Oslo, even when Israel stopped settlements and even when they were giving them land and more land, they never stopped killing.

Once they really stop (not just token English announcements)..
Like this cartoon……….then there can be things to discuss.
http://www.ygoodman.com/humor/arafat.gif
The violence and their goal to eradicate Israel must end first.


which was launched in June with great fanfare but quickly bogged down over disagreements and violence. what fan fare. Oh you mean by a few Jewish and arab politicians and the rest of the world. that’s not any real fan fare. It’s not based in any real realities that’s for sure. It is a fact that a majority of the Palestinians want to see the whole of Israel destroyed no matter what Israel does or offers them

It’s the people, more importantly the Palestinian people that are preventing a true peace not anything else.

Everything else is for western media consumption, which you all buy.

The reality is that most of the Arab and Palestinian world fights and talks about the complete destruction of Israel.



The settlements intrude on the Palestinian's right to self-determination we went over this already.

The Palestinians had every town and city under their control and they were going to get much more but yet never stopped the killings even as they were self governing themselves and were about to get much more. They never stopped the killings!!!


They have become Garrisons to defend the settlers - who claim a biblical right to those lands. well as someone who has first hand knowledge here we defiantly differ here.

I feel these settlements provide security for tel aviv and Haifa and other Israeli town and cities……..

If they weren’t there then the palis would just be targeting those cities on a much more intense way and closer way then they do already.


If that settlement wasn't there, no shooting, and the apartments would be occupied. no, if the settlements weren’t there then there would be shootings in Jerusalem and rockets and mortars hitting tel aviv and Haifa.


Israel's borders are hard enough to defend, yet alone every firebase in the occupied territiories. yes and it would be a thousand times harder if they were to defend the same types of actions from inside the green line.


The US is in Iraq and Afghanistan not to colonize them for territorial land aquisitions first of all whatever the U.S. goal is, they have acted in the same manner as Israel and even worse at times.

Israel’s gaol is also not to do that.

Listen actually the same critics of Israel (well not hypocrites like you) actually also accuse the U.S. of colonizing Iraq and Afghanistan.


as the settlements and the construction of the separation fence on Palestinian land does. no these security fences provides better security in the absence of any sincere peace from the palastinins.



That is the big difference for the US's reason in fighting terrorism with that of the Israels. yes indeed for Israel’s is much much more perilous to Israel’s vital security then he U.S. the U.S. doesn’t even come close to much of a valid reason as Israel has for fighting against terrorism.

For if Israel loses then it ceases to exist. That’s not the case for the U.S. not by a long shot.


I do not debate the nuances of collateral damage one bit. Indeed the US does everything on a larger scale. It is about intent. We are helping the Afghanis and Iraqis. wrong!!~When you did all that destruction and killings, it was about the war on terror and that was the sole intent!!!!

Now you have some nice by products indeed (freeing of the people) but that was not the intent

heck after Israel defeates terrorism they too will see some nice by products as well but terror must be eradicated before any positives can come to light.




You are not helping the Palestinians. well we tried but they refused

Secondly this is about defending the Jewish states right to exist and they wont allow it. No country in the world can tolerate what Israel has to put up with and I guarantee you no country in the world would be as restrained Israel is in face of all this.





Therefore you can not expect peace. well thee harsh reality might just be that the arabs will take a thousand years to really and sincerely accapt the Jewish state for now the reality is that no matter what Israel does for even if they pull out of the west bank and gaza, the Palestinians and the Arabs would still be hostile and they still would be fighting for the rest of Israel!!!



Now regardless of intent here, you are a hypocrite for defending the U.S. actions on the ground and then criticizing Israel when they are doing the same thing.

Shalom. :D

[WARPIG]

Good points.. If you read the thread from front to back you can see a lot of repeating views. The pattern that emerges seems to support the whole circle of violence term mentioned here. One side stopping might break the pattern but the ending result won't be a peaceful compromise. Technically peace will result if the circle is broken but one side is wiped out. (It is pretty peacful with no one to fight.)
Comparing US actions in Iraq to the conflict in Gaza is pretty naive. Two different situations born of two different arguments. As mentioned the US is not fighting for their homes in Iraq. Yes we tend to justify civilian casualties when the intended target is important enough. It is fact of war, not just to the US but it seems to be a popular vehicle to badmouth anti US rhetoric. The same applies to both Palestians and Israelis. Justifying the actions for the intentions is common to both. For Palestinians it seems that letting terrorists exact revenge is an easy way to quench their bloolust and not get their concience dirty. For the Israelis it is a convenient opportunity to fuel their hatred and anger when terrorists kill innocents. Collateral dammage is fluffed by victims of both sides and down played by both.
Seem like the only quick solution is either devine intervention or NATO intervention. Yikes! You have seen how broken NATO's intervention has been recently.

[IDFM203]

Good points.. If you read the thread from front to back you can see a lot of repeating views. The pattern that emerges seems to support the whole circle of violence term mentioned here. One side stopping might break the pattern but the ending result won't be a peaceful compromise. Technically peace will result if the circle is broken but one side is wiped out. (It is pretty peacful with no one to fight.) good analysis there yourself. The fact is that Israel did stop any killings during the Oslo years but the Palestinians never stopped the killing of Israelis even when they were self governing over most of their lives and they were about to get more land..
There is only so much a nation can take without responding.

Just imagine if Israel just continued to sit there and do nothing during the past three years. I guarantee you much more Israelis would have been killed.


Comparing US actions in Iraq to the conflict in Gaza is pretty naive. first of all I am comparing it to Afghanistan and to Iraq and secondly its not as naive as you like to think for there are many similarities indeed.


Two different situations born of two different arguments. not really for the crux of it was the war on terror. Which both are fighting aginst.

No, it’s the nice by products that are a bit different.



As mentioned the US is not fighting for their homes in Iraq. well that’s not exactly true. It was not on the same level as what Israel has to face and as close as to what Israel faces but yes the U.S. went in for security reasons which is defending the U.S. homeland from WMD or from more sept 11 attacks or for other vital security interests that the U.S. deems important (whcih I actually agree with)



Yes we tend to justify civilian casualties when the intended target is important enough. the same with Israel.

Both nations go after people that try to harm their citizens .


Justifying the actions for the intentions is common to both. For Palestinians it seems that letting terrorists exact revengelisten this exact revenge doesn’t wash over for whether Israel kills them or not they are still killing Israelis all the time. Again even during the Oslo years they never stopped killing


For the Israelis it is a convenient opportunity to fuel their hatred and anger when terrorists kill innocents. that is so wrong… this is more about prevention then any revenge. The more of these killers that are taken out the more Israelis get to live.

Israel is acting in self-defense. No nation in the world would tolerate its citizens being killed on a daily bases without trying to stop it.

The U.S. actions and occupation in Afghanistan was as much to do with revenge as well as to do with prevention as well.




I want to make something clear over here. I totally support what the U.S. did in Iraq and in afganisthan. I am just pointing out how he219 views are hypocritical. It doesn’t by any means mean I dont support what the U.S. did for I do. I think they did the right thing just like I feel Israel is doing the right thing in fighting in its own war on terror.

Shalom.:D

[WARPIG]

I won't pretend I know anything about the intentions of either the Palestinians nor the Israelis. I do know the human condition though.

Tell me that you don't have some bloodlust when an attack on civilians occurs. Look deep and ask if it is a specific hatred for the one or two indiviuals responsible or for Palestinians. We both know the answer.
When 9-11 happened my bloodlust wasn't all that specific. Americans hated Vietnamese in the 70's, Germans and Japonese in the 40's etc. The difference between the US protecting ourselves from terror and the conflicts in Gaza is that the US aren't sharing ground with IRAQ. It isn't rooted on centuries of religious hatred. Those are pretty significant differences.
My only point is that neither side in Gaza are willing to take the risks to stop the bloodshed. Well, maybe that is a little too absolute. Bloodlust and hatred are big factors on both sides and I feel intervention is the only thing to stop it.
The last thing I want is to find myself in between two groups of people who have hated each other for centuries.. plus the fact that their hatred stems from their religion. So that statement isn't coming from any want to intervene on my part.
Thanks for the insight IDF. It's good to see that even with so much passion for your cause and people you strive to be objective.

[GAFE]

They killed two WOMEN SOLDIERS, MOFOS BOMB the whole place already. Evacuating the people is good move.

[IDFM203]

Tell me that you don't have some bloodlust when an attack on civilians occurs. . yes of course but I also want to go after them to prevent more of them from killing us.

Its.like sept 11. The attack on Afghanistan was in revenge for most Americans felt revenge needed to be taken BUT it was also to prevent more of them of doing more of these attacks.


Look deep and ask if it is a specific hatred for the one or two indiviuals responsible or for Palestinians. We both know the answer. . well I think this extremist word is not based in reality. I don’t know specific percentages but it seems to me as if there is a sizable majority of Palestinians who support these killers no matter what Israel does or offers them to the point where I feel it’s the ones that want to live in a true peace that are the extremists of the Palestinians.

That “one” or “two” argument is not based in any actuall realty for it is much more then a mere few. and it is defiantly supported by a majority.


The difference between the US protecting ourselves from terror and the conflicts in Gaza is that the US aren't sharing ground with IRAQ. . first of all you should add Afghanistan.

Secondly this difference even makes Israel’s war on terror more valid then the U.S. which is not faced with terror to much up close or as often.


It isn't rooted on centuries of religious hatred. . well I am not so sure about that. The taliban and osama hated the U.S. because of religious reasons as much as the U.S. policies.


Those are pretty significant differences. while the level of religious hatred is perhaps debatable, the actions on the ground and the reasons why the U.S. has fought are very similar to Israel actions and its own reasons as well.


My only point is that neither side in Gaza are willing to take the risks to stop the bloodshed. . what????? Israel signed Oslo and it gave over every town and city and was going to give back much more and all it got back was some token and empty English promises (which meant nothing for in Arabic to their own people they told something much different) and more killings. I repeat even when Israel took these steps and stooped killing, the palis never did.!!!!!

Israel took the risk big time and all it got back was more killings and this war.



Bloodlust and hatred are big factors on both sides and I feel intervention is the only thing to stop it. well that’s a whole other topic, for which I am too tired to go into now but all I will say is that the idf needs to have a freer hand to operate just like the U.S. did in Afghanistan and in Iraq.



plus the fact that their hatred stems from their religion. well thats not true. For that’s not in the Jewish religion. I don’t hate the Arabs because their Arabs. No I hate the Arabs that want to see me dead and the ones that fight for that, no matter where I am in israel.

For Israel, it’s not any religious hatred but rather a common sense one.




Shalom. :D

[IDFM203]

They killed two WOMEN SOLDIERS, MOFOS BOMB the whole place already. Evacuating the people is good move. I guarantee you a lot of other counties would do this if it was faced with what Israel has had to face.......... :|

[WARPIG]

Well if we don't butt heads sometimes.. we aren't trying hard enough.

Again.. I am not assuming that I know anything about that conflict. I only see what the natural response of humans are that are faced with killing and centuries of mistrust. If your belief is that you are completely justified and all your intensions are honorable.. (by you I mean IDF as a whole) then you are a little naive. I won't say that about my military and my government. Our general outlook and intent is honorable and right but our actions are not always. IDF has done some stupid things in the past.. no I won't cite specifics.. and that just opens them up for scrutiny. I won't even slightly condone the Palestinian tactics to this either. But I won't act as if they don't deserve basic human rights.
Your fight isn't to liberate Palestinian people from the terrorists that live and operate in their homes. And I know that the terrorists are the Palestians generally. This is the difference and reason for our ability to move and act more freely in our fight. We are attempting to weed the terror from the people in Afghanistan and Iraq, and rebuild their countries to a state where they can police the terrorists and terror on their own.

Do me a favor IDF.. don't analize ever detail of my opinion. I know we won't see it the same. It is impossible. I don't envy your situation there... and I truly hope it ends in peace. I pray the cost is not too high.

[IDFM203]

Well if we don't butt heads sometimes.. we aren't trying hard enough. .well I am not trying to butt heads here for I do in fact agree with your defence of the U.S. I just don’t agree with you trying to rationalize both situations differently when there are a lot of similarities.


Again.. I am not assuming that I know anything about that conflict. .again not to butt heads here but you are making comments that prove this statement.

I apologise if this sounds rude but it is a bit bothersome to me to hear the same rationalizations which I feel are not based in the true reality of what Israel faces.



I only see what the natural response of humans are that are faced with killing and centuries of mistrust. . well there is centuries of mistrust amongst all the religions and is certainly not confined to between the Jewish ones and the Muslims.

No, this mistrust from a Jewish perspective is not about religion here but more on the past events and facts that have occurred on the ground.


If your belief is that you are completely justified and all your intensions are honorable.. (by you I mean IDF as a whole) then you are a little naive. . no, I can never make that claim as you cant make it about the U.S. as well.

I however do for the most part believe and justify as correct what Israel has had to do to survive.


Our general outlook and intent is honorable and right but our actions are not always. .I agree with that as I feel Israel’s is as well.

The U.S. fought in Afghanistan and in Iraq as part of the war on terror, which I feel is honourable as is Israel doing the same thing.


IDF has done some stupid things in the past.. .yes as has the U.S. and its military. The idf is not perfect, heck no one is perfect. But for the most part Israel has done the minimum of what any nation would do when faced with what Israel has had to endure for the past fifty years.


Your fight isn't to liberate Palestinian people from the terrorists that live and operate in their homes. . no, our fight is to defend the Jewish nation right to exist.

Just as the U.S. fought in Iraq and in Afghanistan which was part of the war on terror, which is defending the U.S.


We are attempting to weed the terror from the people in Afghanistan and Iraq, and rebuild their countries to a state where they can police the terrorists and terror on their own. .ding ding ding yes and we are trying to do the same thing with the Palestinians!!!!!


Do me a favor IDF.. don't analize ever detail of my opinion. . I don’t, I take out parts. Just I am going to respond to parts that I feel are wrong.



I know we won't see it the same. It is impossible. . no its not impossible. There are one truth and different views on it. But again one truth. If we can get to that we can in fact see eye to eye.

That’s what these forums help. You have your truth and I have mine and we try to hash out which is closer to reality in the vain hope that the other person can move closer to the ones whose truth seems more realistic and factual.


I don't envy your situation there... and I truly hope it ends in peace. I pray the cost is not too high. vice versa….. and I wish the same in your war on terror.

Shalom....