Bolt-action battle rifles

[Slater]

For the shooter and collector, surplus bolt-action rifles are a pretty good deal these days. There's Yugoslav M48's, Czech VZ-24's, Mosin-Nagant M91/30's/M44's/M38's, etc. And for those on a healthier budget, the US M1903 Springfield. The Lee-Enfield family also has a large following.

Anyone else partial to these old warhorses?

[wiking]

I like the Enfield, would love to have one some day, and a Mosin Nagant to.

My Grandfather has a Mauser and a Krag Jørgensen, i'm hoping to get those some day.

[gaijinsamurai]

I've got a nice collection of Enfields and K.98's, but what I really like is the 1903 Springfield. Nice, smooth action, well-balanced, and the .30-06 caliber is practical (and if you live in orth America, widely available). I can see why the Marines were so reluctant to part with it!

[DeltaWhisky58]

These rifles al have a lot going for them, expecially the K98 Mausers and the '03 Springfields, but the subject of this topic is "Battle Rifles" which is why the Lee Enfield series has to come out tops.

It is highly accurate (yes, so are the others), it has a TEN round magazine which can be topped up by single rounds or stripper clips, it has the smoothest of bolt actions which can not be said of Mauser-derivatives owing to the sloppy/wobbly bolt movement, and is by far the best for raid shooting.

In early WW1, pre-war regular army troops armed with No.3 SMLEs were so well trained in rapid fire that they could achieve something between 20-30 rounds per minute - it was hardly surprising that the Germans thought they were facing many machine guns.

I know the Lee Enfield also has problems - it doesn't shoot so well in the wet, and the Mauser is better at medium range accuracy whilst the LE takes over at 500-1000yds, but over all it has to be the best bolt action Battle Rifle of all time.

[gaijinsamurai]

Of my bolt-action rifle collection, my rifle with the smootest action is by far my Czech Mauser. I would have to say the Enfields are more robust, however.
Also, you gotta love the Jungle Carbine!!!!!

[wiking]

The jungle carbine! read an article about it, a friend of teh one who wrote the article had tried, fired 1 or 2 shots and said he didn't like it. a few weeks later he meets him, he had fracutered some bones in his shoulder and was away from work for months! ouch.

But if you wan't smooth action, go for the Krag Jørgensen, stands as probably the smoothes action of all and any bolt action rifle in history, possibly only rivaled by the Enfield.

[Tributal]

An '03A3 or A4 would be nice. ;)

[Tributal]

But if you wan't smooth action, go for the Krag Jørgensen, stands as probably the smoothes action of all and any bolt action rifle in history, possibly only rivaled by the Enfield.I think the Krag has the upper hand on that one.

[Slater]

For those of us in the US (and maybe elsewhere, I don't know) the Mosin-Nagants are the cheapest surplus bolt guns currently on the market. A refurbished M91/30 (in excellent condition) with bayonet, sling, oiler, ammo pouch, and cleaning/maintenance kit can be had for around $70.

The Finnish M39 variant is more expensive (maybe $200-250) but more accurate and generally better quality. They're quite nice.

[sergey31]

Of nearly all surplus bolt-action rifles Enfield's .303 is the less powerful round.
Especially with commercially available ammo.
7.62x54R and 30-06 is on top follow by 8mm...... Commercial .303 is a bit more powerful then 7.62x39mm

[BlackFlag]

I like the Enfield, would love to have one some day, and a Mosin Nagant to.

My Grandfather has a Mauser and a Krag Jørgensen, i'm hoping to get those some day. over here in the U.S. you can buy a Mosin-Nagant for $60 ;)

[Para]

I used the Lee Enfield rifle while I was in the Army and it was a very accurate and hard hitting weapon. It had to be pulled right back in to your shoulder or you would get a rather nasty bruise from the recoil. So many of the modern weapons the bolt has a blow back action that absorbs much of the kick so when people try out the Lee Enfield they are inclined to get bruised.

[wiking]

I like the Enfield, would love to have one some day, and a Mosin Nagant to.

My Grandfather has a Mauser and a Krag Jørgensen, i'm hoping to get those some day. over here in the U.S. you can buy a Mosin-Nagant for $60 ;)

Could probably buy one from the US through the local gun store.
Would cost a bit more, but not to much.
But it'll be a while, first i need a hunting license wich'll cost a bit, and i'd need to apply for a permit to purchase, and that costs.

[wiking]

I used the Lee Enfield rifle while I was in the Army and it was a very accurate and hard hitting weapon. It had to be pulled right back in to your shoulder or you would get a rather nasty bruise from the recoil. So many of the modern weapons the bolt has a blow back action that absorbs much of the kick so when people try out the Lee Enfield they are inclined to get bruised.

Just like the recoil of a shotgun, if you place it well againt the shoulder it doesn't hurt you, but if you don't get it placed well you'll bee bruised like hell.

[wiking]

On the subject of Enfield, i saw a rather ugly specimen of it.
Some guy had bought it, and taken it to the local gun shop to estimate the value, well it wasn't worth much.

The bayonett was welded to the bayonett lugg, the foresight didn't have the actual foresight, there was just the two metal thingys flanking it (so my technical terms are wrong, but you get it ;) ) and the few cm of the barrel that portrudes from the stock and goes through the foresight mount (if i remeber the construction right) had been cut of, and God and the idiot who f00ked up that rifle only knows why.

Worst part was that it was actually a working rifle, and not just a decoration. I felt sorry for the guy who bought it, he got ripped of big time.

[Otsoa]

Of nearly all surplus bolt-action rifles Enfield's .303 is the less powerful round.
Especially with commercially available ammo.
7.62x54R and 30-06 is on top follow by 8mm...... Commercial .303 is a bit more powerful then 7.62x39mm

Never had a problem here in Canada in regards to 303 ammo in regards to hunting. Don't know and don't care about military loads since we can't use them for hunting. As far as a 303 goes, it is used here to hunt game that range in size from small to large deer all the way up to moose and elk. Kills them dead the same way a 7.62x54R and 30-06 does. The common saying here is that the 303 has put down more game here in this country than any other caliber has.

Either way, I love my Mosin 91/30 but I still want a mint, full wood Lee-Enfield :D

[KaceCoyote]

I got a pair've M38s, great rifles. I actually prefer it greatly to my friend's 98K. Bolt is smoother, far less binding when rushed. Mine has an awesome trigger pull for a milsurp to boot!

Havent tested it but I'll bet cash money my M38 will outshoot said 98K. Sides, My rifle didnt LOOSE the war. p-)

[GazB]

I have a fully wooded Mk4 Enfield, though it is actually called a Mk4* because it was made for the British b the American Savage corporation of the US. It is very mild to fire. My jungle carbine recoils a bit more but not as bad as many gun writers would ahve you believe. I have heard tales of broken collar bones and enormous muzzle flashes but I have not had any problems with mine... no flash, a reasonably firm kick but nothing serious. Certainly not as bad as a short barrel shotgun firing solid slugs.
I also own a model 1891/30 Mosin Nagant rifle and a model 1938 and model 1944 carbine. The two carbines do kick hard... comparable to a short barrel shotgun with solid slugs, and the muzzle flash is about the size of a 2 ltr drink bottle and is bright orange.

I engoy using them all. None are particularly accurate, though that is probably more me and the cheap ammo than the weapons themselves. The enfields are probably the safest with multiple safety features like a safety lever, a half **** hammer position, and a bolt safety (ie pull the trigger and close the bolt and it wont fire till you **** the bolt manually... pull the trigger and close the bolt on a live round with a mosin nagant and it will fire so don't do it).

303 ammo is quite hard to get these days so I tend to use my Mosin Nagant more than my enfields. The MNs are much simpler and much easier to clean as their bores are chrome plated.

On the face of it I would give the nod to the Enfield as it is probably safer as its safeties are easier to operate. (the MN does have a safety but it is very hard to apply and remove... you grab the rear of the bolt and pull back firmly and then turn it anti clockwise about a quarter turn and let it go forward again... to release is the opposite.) However NZ gun laws require guns not be loaded till you get into the hunting area and rounds not to be chambered till you are ready to shoot. In such circumstances a safety is of no use.

[oldsoak]

Lo Gazb, Suprised that 303 is getting hard to get in NZ, - Nelson Rod and Gun always had a selection when I was there.
I'd go for the Lee Enfield anytime - thats not saying the others are bad, far from it. I just like the action and the fact it was the first rifle I ever fired. P14 would be my next choice and the good old .303 never let me down on big reds in south westland, NZ.
One to include would be the 6.5mm swedish mausers - good, accurate and cheap. Another favourite of mine. The Scandinavians put it to damn good use.

[GazB]

Lo Gazb, Suprised that 303 is getting hard to get in NZ, - Nelson Rod and Gun always had a selection when I was there.


Plenty of 303 rifles, though most have most of the wood cut off to "sporterise" them and look aweful, but it is the ammo. You either pay about 2 dollars a round for the hunting ammo or you get what army surplus has turned up... usually 30-40 years old of dodgy quality.

The problem is that except hunting stuff it is not used in the western world as a military round any more.

My AK and SKS in 7.62 x 39 are much cheaper to feed and at close range (within 200m) the impact is roughly the same as for the 303 anyway. The 7.62 x 54 and 7.62 x 51 ammo is also easier to get.

[oldsoak]

Eh ? We had a quite a bit of Winchester and PMC .303 ammo in Nelson - as well as the normal 1940's FMJ stuff. $2 a shot ? I certainly didnt pay that ! Might be worth dropping the guys a line on 03 548 1840 - they're now one of the Hunting and Fishing NZ outlets.

[wiking]

Here is a bit of info on the Krag Jørgensen rifle:

The rifle is Danish, but the desing is Norwegian.
Denmark was the first country to adopt the Krag Jørgensen rifle - in 1889 with a 8x58R calibre. United States adopted it in 1892 as a 30-40 calibre, but did not start production before in 1894. Norway adopted the rifle in 1894 as a 6,5x55.

Here are the 5 main Krag Jørgensen models made for use with the Norwegian Army.
http://www.geocities.com/kj983260/kragene.JPG
The top model is the standard infantry rifle, called M1894 Lang Krag (Long Krag). 30.000 was produced by Steyr in Austria, and 122.000 was produced at Kongsberg. In addition to this production comes the Krag's produced for the Navy and for the civilian market. Allthough there was made about 1 Krag per 10 citizens, many have been cut down, refitted with new stocks, sold to the US and so forth, and therefore finding an original army issue M1894 is surprisingly difficult.

The rifle is loaded through a loading gate on the right side of the rifle, the Norwegian and US Krag mechanisems are practically the same, but the Danish loading gate lids moves out and forward, while the Norwegian and US lids fold down.

The second rifle from the top is the M1895 Cavalry Carbine\M1897 Mountain artillery & Engineer Carbine, these were two separate models, but the only difference was that the strap fastenings was moved. They are therefore in reality the same weapon.

The third rifle from the top is the M1904 Engineer Carbine\M1907 Field Artillery Carbine. Unlike the M1895\M1897 Carbine, this one was fully stocked. Just like the M1895\M1897, the M1904\M1907's only difference between the two is the fastening of the straps.

The Fourth rifle is the M1912-M1912/16-M1912/18-M1912/22.
It is the only of the Krag Carbines that was produced in significant numbers, 30.000 to be exact.
It is very hard to get hold of an M1912 in it's original form, as the design of the front of the stock was bad and had a tendency to crack. It was redesigned in 1916, given the designation M1912/16, and most of the old Carbines were modified.
In 1918 the carbine recived a new one-piece nose band, and this version was designated M1912/18.
The last 9000 M1912's produced got a new straight bolt and was given the designation M1912/22.

The fifth rifle is the M1923 Sniper. It was supposed to be a sniper, but it turned out to be a horribly bad weapon at all. There was only 600-700 produced, and these were remade into one of the later sniper models or hunting rifles.

In Norway today Krag's, both military and civilian models, are fairly commen. The 6.5x55 and the smooth action coupled with a good accuracy (if you count out the M1923 "sniper") is a very good competition and hunting rifle. Any competition in Norway is sure to sport a few Krag's, and they are heavily represented at the National Shooting Competition every year.

[GreatWarAZUS]

Let's see, I've got the following:

Japanese Type 99 Arisaka
Russian Mosin-Nagant M.91/30
French MAS 1936
British SMLE No.1Mk.3
Remington M1903A3
Yugoslavian M24/47

Those are my bolt-actions. You can check out some (small) pictures of them at http://www.geocities.com/greatwaraz/My_Collection.html

A few of my other rifles are up there, as well. Enjoy!