Snipers in WW2

[TIEDUSTELIJA]

In WW2 russian and germans promoted some of their snipers to major or even lt. colonel. Today it is not even possible, few guys even got 400+ confirmed kills. The most famous of them is Simo Häyhä, who got 500+ confirmed kills.

Snipers didn't have any controlled training those days so they had to train themselves. American's started intensive sniper training shortly after vietnam war started.

[Royal]

Snipers didn't have any controlled training those days so they had to train themselves. American's started intensive sniper training shortly after vietnam war started.
:cantbeli:

Welcome to planet earth.

Can I suggest you drag your head out of your arse before spouting **** - you might drown in it.

[Tiger]

Simo Hayha was Finnish, not German or Russian. ;)

[TIEDUSTELIJA]

What part you disagree?

[TIEDUSTELIJA]

I know he was Finnish. I've read his book.

[Royal]

What part you disagree?

Formal sniper training in both the British and German armed forces goes back to WWI.

It could be argued that the sharpshooter concept goes back to the evolution of the rifled barrel. In the British case with the raising of the 95th Rifles by Gen Sir John Moore in the early 1800's, itself based on the use of marine sharpshooters by all the major western navies in the mid to late 1700's.

Sniping as a word comes from the English gamekeepers who hunted Snipe in East Anglia, again in the 1800's.

The Ghillie suit worn by modern snipers is based on the tweed suits worn by Scotish Ghillies (hunting guides) serving in WWI with the Highland Regiments.

[Russian Texan]

few guys even got 400+ confirmed kills

Wow, would you please provide your source.

Anyhow, Vasilij Zaitsev is the coolest: 243 shots = 242 dead german officers(he never shot soldiers) and a movie deal :lol: BTW it was one of the most retarted movies I've ever seen.

[Haiw]

http://www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm
also note Sulo Kolkka (Finish)...apparently he had 400 kills with a rifle, and another 200 with a smg... pretty hardcore if u ask me

btw did u know that Hayha and Kolkka both just used regular rifles without optics? they had some 1-shot kills at 500 meters with just plain ironsights... (btw i suppose that goes for several other on the list as well, being a sniper doesnt mean they did to get a badass scope)

[EvanL]

There have been sniper schools in Canada, U.K., and U.S. since WW1. :bash:

[Dalleer]

Now, I've heard that some of these kills for Mr. Vasilij Zaitsev were unconfirmed, please note that this is again something as "hear say".

Basically, Mr Zaitsev was excellent but some of the kills he got were "added" by the Russian propaganda machine, basicly for the concept of "The people needing heroes and Mr. Zaitsev shall be made one".

From what I read, some of the kills that Zaitsev had been rumored to have done would have been confirmed "impossible" (now don't ask me what that meant.) and/ or in some cases the soldiers that Zaitsev had supposedly eliminated were found to have been killed earlier in the war; they had possibly have been reported as Zaitsev's victims by other Russian soldiers that had been digging into the dead soldiers pockets in order to find the identification and then marking them as kills for Zaitsev.


I can't confirm any of these rumours, so do not condemn me. And besides, all of these rumours that I have heard have been in Finnish.


I can spare a link of the matter from another messageboard, unfortunately it is all in Finnish so it won't help you foreigners much.

[California Joe]

My handle is that of an American Civil War Union Sharpshooter/sniper.

[Operation Ivy]

Now, I've heard that some of these kills for Mr. Vasilij Zaitsev were unconfirmed, please note that this is again something as "hear say".

Basically, Mr Zaitsev was excellent but some of the kills he got were "added" by the Russian propaganda machine, basicly for the concept of "The people needing heroes and Mr. Zaitsev shall be made one".

From what I read, some of the kills that Zaitsev had been rumored to have done would have been confirmed "impossible" (now don't ask me what that meant.) and/ or in some cases the soldiers that Zaitsev had supposedly eliminated were found to have been killed earlier in the war; they had possibly have been reported as Zaitsev's victims by other Russian soldiers that had been digging into the dead soldiers pockets in order to find the identification and then marking them as kills for Zaitsev.


I can't confirm any of these rumours, so do not condemn me. And besides, all of these rumours that I have heard have been in Finnish.


I can spare a link of the matter from another messageboard, unfortunately it is all in Finnish so it won't help you foreigners much.

I loved that movie...Zaitsev is my hero :D ...but Stalingrad was much better :P

[ogukuo72]

Is it true that Soviet snipers in WW2 were not issued with rifles selected for their consistency and that they were fitted only with 4x scopes? If so, their scores are even more impressive!

[simple jumper]

Teres a good book coming out on Canadian sniper equipment from ww1 to present, its not printed yet but seems to be pretty good from what I've heard. www.servicepub.com (go all the way to the bottom of the page.)

[GazB]

"Is it true that Soviet snipers in WW2 were not issued with rifles selected for their consistency and that they were fitted only with 4x scopes?"

The rifles they were issued with were specially selected and up until recently the most powerful scope used was x4. (Current issue SVDSs and SVDs have a new 3-9 x 42 variable power scope).
Rifles used were normally Model 1891/30 rifles, but Tokarev SV-38s and SVT-40s as well as a few AVT-38s Simonov rifles were used to. Postwar the Mosin rifles were replaced by the SVD Dragunov rifle and recently the bolt action SV-99 .22lr, the bolt action SV-98 7.62 x 54mm or 9.3 x 64mm, and semi automatic SVDS and SVD-K, as well as the OSV-98 50 cal rifles have been added to the inventory. (The 50 cal rifle... actually the Russian 12.7 x 108mm... is fitted with a x13 power scope).

I thought "Enemy at the Gates" was OK... the arming soldiers with either a rifle or 5 rounds of ammo was pure BS. Yes ammo could get short, but when you sent in fresh troops they were armed... it wasn't like WWI where the Tsars had neglected small arms production and soldiers went into combat with no weapon at all and told to pick up a weapon from the battlefield.

[spectre5]

Hah, if you say that soviet snipers were impressive with their 4x scopes, think of this. Simo Häyhä prevered ironsights and yet he is the best sniper/sharpshooter there has ever been, or will be.

Best regards,
Antti Korpela

[Henk]

Here is a nice link with interviews with the best German snipers off WW2,
http://www.geocities.com/faunto2000/german_sniperinterview.htm
In this link is also told how sniper kills were confirmed in the wehrmacht.
I have a question how were they confirmed in the other army's????
And here is a link to a killboard of the world's best snipers.
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-68757/sniper/history.htm

_________________________
The best weapon is the mind.

[Russian Texan]

That log book is a complete bs put together by some 14 year old who doesn't even know to spell :cantbeli: Several posts up there was a link given by a guy from Finland to the real log book.

[Haiw]

dude, i'm dutch :D

btw ye, the link henk gave is a rather incomplete list, i suppose the one i gave is better :P

[Russian Texan]

Sorry, still scandinavian though :) I hope you weren't offended. Anyhow, thanks for the link - very interesting site.

[Haiw]

Sorry, still scandinavian though :) I hope you weren't offended. Anyhow, thanks for the link - very interesting site.
i'm not offended....but...
rofl
take a look at the map...last time i looked the netherlands still weren't in scandinavia :lol:

[Russian Texan]

Hey, there is only so much you can expect from a public school graduate :lol:
It is close though...I hope :)

[koster]

"
I thought "Enemy at the Gates" was OK... the arming soldiers with either a rifle or 5 rounds of ammo was pure BS. Yes ammo could get short, but when you sent in fresh troops they were armed... it wasn't like WWI where the Tsars had neglected small arms production and soldiers went into combat with no weapon at all and told to pick up a weapon from the battlefield.
My Grandfather fought in Stalingrad, in WW2, he was a commander/officer of a ShtrafBat (Shtrafniki are the people that've commited some kinds of felonys, basicly, most of them were deserters and people with a bad history) anyway, he told me, that one rifle was given per 2 people (can't remember about the ammo), and they were not allowed to surrended, nor retreat, there were people with machineguns behind them (can't remember what they were called), and whoever went back, got one in the head...
It was different in normal infantry squads/battalions thu.
So...those people (shtrafniki) were considered a scum by Generals, and all those people in the high places :(
My grandfather wasn't one of them thu, he was just a CO, but from what I remember, he told me that most of those under his command were good men (they saved his life quiete a few times.)

[GazB]

Yes, the prisoner units. They were not what was depicted in the movie. the movie tried to portray the average unit as being like that... surely the most famous Soviet sniper was not in a penal battalion.

[Armour recon]

Well the tiedustelija is right in few things. Hayha had over 500 confirmed kills and I've heard also that US didn't have sniper schools before vietnam, but I do not confirm that. Also did you meant that scandinavians didn't have sniper training? It's also true hayha didn't use scope because he said it made targeting too slow. [/quote]

[PsihoKeke]

As far as I remember US Army really didn't have sniper training before Vietnam but US Marines did have. There was similar situation in UK where Army abolished their sniper training soon after WW2, but Royal Marines didn't. So when it became obvius that snipers are necesary in Northern Ireland they took Marines sniper training program and als borowed few instructors.

[Sparky2129]

This isnt exactly on topic, but its somewhat related. Does anyone know what the longest confirmed kill was? Right now i've got Carlos Hathcock II at 2500 yards with a Browning .50 cal. Anybody know someone who topped that? Details please? Thanks

[Ratamacue]

There was a Canadian sniper in the Stan who got a confirmed kill at something like 2750yds with I believe a McMillan .50cal sniper rifle.

[GazB]

Or that British gunner that got a kill at 5km. Of course the 120mm rifle he used was stabilised and he did have a digital Fire control system... it came with his Challenger tank... :-)

[LJK]

If i remember right, Hayha didint use scope because with Russian tripod you had to get your head really up and then russian snipers got you. And lens often show up your position to enemy's. And finnish scope was really bad....big box at the top of rifle and it looked like a camera :D

[California Joe]

Marine Scout/Snipers used Springfield rifles with Unertl scopes on them in the Pacific in WWII. Target scopes adapted to sniper use. The rifles were customized by the armorers at Quantico.

[ogukuo72]

What about the M1 sniper rifles? What's it proper designation and what scope does it use?

[James]

What about the M1 sniper rifles? What's it proper designation and what scope does it use?

It was the M1-C, with a 2.5x M82 scope. I think the U.S. Army used it during Korea - USMC still used the '03 Springfield.

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/M1-C.JPG

[Royal]

There was similar situation in UK where Army abolished their sniper training soon after WW2, but Royal Marines didn't. So when it became obvius that snipers are necesary in Northern Ireland they took Marines sniper training program and als borowed few instructors.

Much as I hate to stand up for the pongoes, there was a sniper school in BAOR (I think at Sennelager, but don't quote me) until the 1970's, when the army moved it's womble school to the School of Infantry at Warminster (it's now at ITC Wales - Derring Lines, Brecon).

[California Joe]

It was the M1-C, with a 2.5x M82 scope. I think the U.S. Army used it during Korea - USMC still used the '03 Springfield.

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/M1-C.JPG

There was a "D" model M1 too if I'm not mistaken. The Marines did use that also in Korea but the '03 was used much more frequently. I have a photo of it in use by Marines in one of those Peter Senich books around here somewhere.

[radon]

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haykarjp.jpg
Häyhä

He doesent look really dangerous. The small size must have given a good advantage... If i remember right he begun listing kills later in war because he heard of some other sniper who did that.

[LongWayToTheTop]

um just because you kill 400+ people dosnt mean your rank is gonna sky rocket it just depended on your education and skill most soldiers didnt wish to become officers most just made it to Warrant officer class 1 (Sergeant Major) and it isnt about killing as many enemy troops as you can its about doing as much harm to the enemy such as taking out the jeeps or unarmored vechicles it just depends on your mission. Plus british snipers got trained very well.

[2RHPZ]

Excerpts from Notes Of A Sniper by Vassili Zaitsev:

http://www.notesofasniper.com/chpt12text.htm

[OldRecon]

Is it true that Soviet snipers in WW2 were not issued with rifles selected for their consistency and that they were fitted only with 4x scopes? If so, their scores are even more impressive!

Don't think there was much more than 4x possibly 5x scopes available at that time anyway.
The british snipers were cited as having an advantage over opponents through the use of a 30x monocular observation scope (ie. not fitted to the rifle), when their opponents were limited to binoculars.
Soviets had produced wast quantities of scope equipped Nagants during the 1930, and given marksmanship training on an equal scale.
I think they even had majority of shares in the Zeiss optics firm at one stage.

[Kitsune]

I am absolutely sorry, @ Russians and GazB, but one can simply trust the Soviet numbers least of any. I suspect they are exaggerated or filled up with inventions (remember this alleged duel of Zhaitsev vs Major König/Thorwald or whoever) for propaganda reasons.
The Soviet military was completely under Stalins control, this was different in the Western Allied or even the German case (the Nazis had only been in government for 6 years before the war, so there was still a great degree of independence from the poltical leadership, which would have probably changed with time). But Stalin? He had killed three quarters of the Soviet officers during the thirties, if he wanted somthing made up, who would dare to stand against him?
So, while I agree that there were quite a few great Soviet snipers, the kill numbers were probably exaggerations to conform to the myth of the "few free Soviet citizens, who valiantly fought against the monstrous faschist horde which attacked the peaceful workers and farmers paradise with its 100.000 tanks" :roll: in some cases.

[Yosy]

I suspect they are exaggerated or filled up with inventions (remember this alleged duel of Zhaitsev vs Major König/Thorwald or whoever) for propaganda reasons.


I think the duel actually took place, but I may be mistaken. I have a great book called Great Battles of World War 2 by John Macdonald. Here's a a quote from the book, from the Stalingrad section:

"The russians excelled in sharpshooting and, to compensate this disadvantage, Heinz Thorwald, chief of the german sniper school, flew to Stalingrad. There happened a 4-day duel between the german and a famous russian sniper. Most of the time, the german stayed in no-man's land, hidden by a leaf of iron and some debris. His positon was finally detected and the helper of the russian sniper lifted the helmet with his hand; the german shot and slowly lifted his head, to see if he'd hited the target; he was killed instantly

[Kitsune]

Yeah Yosy I know that. I have read about this case quite a lot. It seems to be like this: The Soviets invented this duel for propaganda reasons, and some historians made the mistake to include this story from "Soviet sources" into their work...other historians read this and included it too and such.
But real research on the matter showed that there is no German sniper called "Thorwald", "Thorvald" or "König"...and since the Russians claim him to be some supersniper, head of a sniper school and such, there should be documents proving his existence. One does not get into such a position without leaving a bureaucratic trace, especially not in Germany. ;)
(Even the Holocaust was carefully documented...)

So the conclusion is plain and simple: its an propaganda story. Its interesting and somehow "romantic" so quite a few people fell for it. "The White Knight fought an epic struggle against the evil Black Knight...and won." That kind of thing gave faith and strength to those who read it during WWII times.

[Yosy]

Maybe you're right, but sniper duels did happen (even with female snipers).

[Mangrove]

Simo Häyhä prevered ironsights and yet he is the best sniper/sharpshooter there has ever been, or will be.

Not exactly. According to official Finnish Army documents preserved at the Finnish National Archive he had archived 199 [1] kills from beginning of the war until 26 January 1940 and twenty more from the day to 16 February 1940, that's 219 [2] total.

In his diary from the War A. J. Rantamaa claims he had 259 [3] kills on the day we was wounded but I could not verify this from the documents. However they say he had around same amount of kills with SMG and LMG, that is +500 kills total as a infantry soldier but not as a sniper.

[1] Perus 2962. Finnish National Archive Sörnäinen.
[2] Perus 1161/3. Finnish National Archive Sörnäinen.
[3] Rantamaa, A. J. 1942. Parlamentin palkeilta Kollaanjoen kaltahille. WSOY, Porvoo. Pg. 84 and 206.

[JC0352]

^ nice SA:roll:

look at the date of the last post before yours

[Mangrove]

look at the date of the last post before yours

Yes, I did that before posting. The myth Häyhä as the best sniper in the World is so widespead so I though it would be good to straight things out.

[Domen]

First of all achievements of snipers were not measured in kills but in confirmed hits. How many of these "confirmed hits" were enemies killed and how many were enemies wounded, who in the end survived the hit - we cannot say. Another thing is that any of these figures cannot be considered as accurate because it worked just in the same way like with victories of fighter aces - there was overclaming and there were mistakes. Thus "confirmed victories" were in fact never fully confirmed until being confirmed in enemy archives. And if the number of victories achieved by Simo during the day he was WIA is only taken from his personal diary - it doesn't seem to be very reliable.

[Mangrove]

And if the number of victories achieved by Simo during the day he was WIA is only taken from his personal diary - it doesn't seem to be very reliable.

All the numbers from National Archive are from his battalion officer, but the highest number is indeed from a diary, but not his own. I don't know how the kills were confirmed and I can not find any accurate information on Soviet losses at his sector.

[Domen]

And what was Simo's sector?


I don't know how the kills were confirmed

I've heard (I don't know what is the source of this information - I've just read it somewhere in the internet) that in the German army the hit was officially awarded for the sniper when it was confirmed by an officer, a NCO or 2 soldiers. I'm not sure if they had to witness the hits to confirm them.

It seems - according to what you wrote - that in Simo's case his battalion officer was granting him these "kills".

[Mangrove]

And what was Simo's sector?

His unit was 6./JR 34, which was part of 12.D and part of IV AK. The company fought at Kollaa front at the same location for whole war and exact place can be seen from this map. "P" stands for II/JR 34 which had took positions west of lake Kollaanjärvi (N62° 1' 37", E31° 53' 52"). The sixth company was deployed at the road (marked "P.r.:").

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6415/lq9608sark21252300063.jpg



It seems - according to what you wrote - that in Simo's case his battalion officer was granting him these "kills".

Some say the kills were listed on the company war diary but since it is missing I can not confirm this. So there are only few documents which list his kills and these were sent to the regiment CO or to the army CO so they could grant appropriate awards for him.

[Domen]

I can not find any accurate information on Soviet losses at his sector.


I also couldn't find such info. I only have data on losses of the entire Soviet 8. Army in the entire war.

8100 killed (including 654 commanders and 1273 junior commanders)
4971 missing (including 129 commanders and 446 junior commanders)
21.723 wounded, injured or burned (including 1524 commanders, 2582 junior commanders)

There were also 7296 sick and 2797 frost bitten (45 commanders, 154 junior commanders) in 8. Army.

These figures refer to the entire period 30.11.1939 - 13.03.1940. At the beginning of the war 8th Army consisted of 6 rifle divisions, 1 tank brigade and many smaller units (it seems that later it received further divisions - e.g. 164. and 128 ???). The army was deployed in two main sectors - Ilomantsi and Sortavala - having a front of over 200 km long. It seems that only 2 divisions fought in the "nearbyhood" (more or less) of Simo's sector (164. and 128. - both of them were not parts of the 8. Army at the start of the war):

http://www.winterwar.com/forces/SuArmy/SUArmy-OOB30111939.htm#Ladoga

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Kollaan-taistelut-maalis-1940.png

Anyway - some sources say that Simo "killed" even as many as 700 - 800 Russians. This would mean that one person inflicted some 5 - 6% (if assuming that all of these 4971 missing were in fact dead) of all bloody losses (if it comes to fatalities) of the entire army in the entire war. :roll:

[Mangrove]

It seems that only 2 divisions fought in the "nearbyhood" (more or less) of Simo's sector (164. and 128. - both of them were not parts of the 8. Army at the start of the war):

Simo's battalion was at the front from 30.11.1939 to 17.2.1940 and then in reserve to 4.3.1940. Häyhä was wounded on 6 March 1940 so all his kills were archived in 83 days. The map is from March.


Anyway - some sources say that Simo "killed" even as many as 700 - 800 Russians.

In past ten or so years two books on Häyhä have been written in Finnish. Both of these books use online sniper kill tables for reference! I believe the +500 kill myth is made up by some American sites which mixed up rifle and SMG/LMG kills.

[Conda]

in anthony beevors Berlin - The Downfall 1945 he writes about a german sniper with some 70+ confirmed kills that had dressed up in a priests funeral costume and killed lots of russian, it sounds like something out of a quentin tarantino movie, but anthony beevor is legit so if anyone has any info about this sniper please post a link.

[Ardee]

At the beginning of this thread, there were several posts that noted how various nations had established sniper schools during WWI. This is true. But I had always understood these schools were disbanded after the war, and when WWII came along, basically every country had to relearn the value of snipers the hard way, and again had to develop training programs for snipers, almost from scratch. Can anybody clarify?

[Stasi]

http://i.imgur.com/32D3v.jpg