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Crazy Dutch
02-02-2005, 04:41 PM
I have read that each Soviet army in the cold war had a Spetsnaz Company of Razvedchiks as LRRPs. Has anybody info about the IDs of these. Special the one of the 20 Guards Army in 1984. This because I am busy with a scenario for the game Century of Warfare.

Tally Man
02-02-2005, 04:59 PM
I have the Soviet tactics manual from when I was OFOR at Fort Irwin I will look it up when I find the publication

Jedburgh
02-02-2005, 05:32 PM
SPETSNAZ: Soviet Innovation in Special Forces (http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1986/nov-dec/boyd.html)

The Soviet Spetsnaz Threat to NATO (http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj88/campbell.html)

Spetsnaz: Bibliography (http://users.skynet.be/terrorism/html/russia_spetsnaz.htm)

Tally Man
02-02-2005, 06:46 PM
This is from FM 100-2-1 “Soviet Army Operations and Tactics” I have had this manual from my time with the 11th ACT as OPFOR, I have also seen this at SPLC at Fort Knox.

Table 5-10 Phases of the Meeting Battle
Phase Element in March
Forward Reconnaissance Patrols and Groups
Basic Task:
Obtain data on the enemy disposition and terrain along the main routes of advance.
Actions of Contact:
Disengage when possible
Report and/or continuously monitor the situation
Determine enemy disposition
In favorable conditions (or out of necessity) may attacks advancing subunits, take prisoners, disorganize/disrupt enemy forces, and destroy enemy nuclear and C and I systems.


From what I remember there is a sub-unit called Raiding Detachment but don't confus this with a LRRPS or LRDS unit in the US military they avoid contact I was enlisted as a 96R and a scout PTL and BRT commander and there is a hudge difference LRDS units don't screen the enemy with direct contact.

NicNZ
02-02-2005, 06:59 PM
How true is this quote:

The Spetsnaz are the only Soviet troops who can think for themselves and take quick decisions.
-Abdul Haq, Afghan rebel leader

Tally Man
02-02-2005, 07:08 PM
FM 100-2-1
Section 5-25

Raiding Detachment
At the tactical level, a raiding detachment is a highly mobile unit or subunit) generally a reinforced battalion), dispatched to destroy important military targets. Raiding detachments may also have the mission to seize important terrain or block enemy reserves. In this effort, forward detachments may conduct raids. (2/4-27)


Sounds like this is what you are looking for I am not familiar with Spetnaz but if they operate at a battalion level I bet this is what they do for the old Soviet doctrine.
At Irwin, I know the Squadron scouts did act as the raiding parties and there job was to attack all S&S and reserve elements in the rear areas so I could see a small quick strike unit like the Spetnaz having this mission.

Lokos
02-02-2005, 08:03 PM
Nic, it's rubbish.

Regards,
Lokos

Tally Man
02-02-2005, 08:08 PM
what is rubbish please put some more detail into your message I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Lokos
02-02-2005, 08:28 PM
That Spetsnaz were the only Soviet troops capable of independent thought. Which a) wasn't true at the time (or ever) by a long shot and b) is an assertion from a source who never had to face the Soviets in what they were trained and prepared for; a set piece battle.

Regards,
Lokos

Lokos
02-02-2005, 08:29 PM
Tally Man, I hope you didn't think I was saying that your information is rubbish. I wasn't. My post was directed at Nic who asked about the truthfulness of a quote from an Afghan insurgent who fought in the war against the Soviets.

Regards,
Lokos

Tally Man
02-02-2005, 10:07 PM
It's cool sorry I didn't mean frag any friendlies, anyway I don't know much about the old USSR units but I used to study their tactics a little.

Have a good one Lokos and stay Recon one!

NicNZ
02-02-2005, 11:46 PM
Hum, yes Dima but the Soviet armed forces (and, until recently, the Russian military) had a reputation for being extremely strict, structured, controlled, dependent on direction from 'above', and unusually intolerant of individual discretion at ground level. In that context, would it be true to say that Spetsnaz were the only unit capable of "thinking for themselves and taking quick decisions"?

Dima-RussianArms
02-03-2005, 12:01 AM
Hum, yes Dima but the Soviet armed forces (and, until recently, the Russian military)
What have changed recently?

had a reputation
What was that "reputation" based on, seriously, where do you guys get this stuff?

for being extremely strict, structured, controlled, dependent on direction from 'above', and unusually intolerant of individual discretion at ground level.
Show me a military or in fact any organization, where bosses/commanders appreciate having soldiers/employees not following orders.

In that context, would it be true to say that Spetsnaz were the only unit capable of "thinking for themselves and taking quick decisions"?
No. Allowed greater freedom and creativity - yes, the only ones capable - no.
According to that statement spetsnaz were the only intelligent ones and the rest of the military - braindead zombies.

What do you exactly mean by saying "thinking for themselves and taking quick decisions"?

Lokos
02-03-2005, 04:05 AM
Nic,

The Soviets did, for a short time during the 1938-1943 period, have a certain 'reputation' for using text book solutions for not-so-textbook problems and having to face the dire consequences that resulted. However, you should be aware that the Germans saw that reputation shredded by mid 1944 and the Japanese in 1945. During those last twelve months of the war the Soviet Union had developed capable NCO's, extremely good general officers and a doctrine suited to the Soviet way of war through bitter experience.

In fact, Soviet military thinkers and officers of the post-war were considered extremely imaginative (having been encouraged in that regard) and, therefore, extremely dangerous to the enemies of the Soviet Union.

Regards,
Lokos

16 OBr SpN
02-03-2005, 04:40 AM
I have read that each Soviet army in the cold war had a Spetsnaz Company of Razvedchiks as LRRPs. Has anybody info about the IDs of these. Special the one of the 20 Guards Army in 1984. This because I am busy with a scenario for the game Century of Warfare.

I might be understanding your question the wrong way, but are you asking about recon units within regular infantry, airborne, and armored units?

16 OBr SpN
02-03-2005, 04:49 AM
Hum, yes Dima but the Soviet armed forces (and, until recently, the Russian military) had a reputation for being extremely strict, structured, controlled, dependent on direction from 'above', and unusually intolerant of individual discretion at ground level. In that context, would it be true to say that Spetsnaz were the only unit capable of "thinking for themselves and taking quick decisions"?

Thinking for ourselves and making quick decisions? Generally - yes.
We had basic orders, but improvised as needed.

Were we the only ones? No.
It all depends on what nature of operations we talk about, and units involved.

Coop
02-03-2005, 05:34 AM
I have read that each Soviet army in the cold war had a Spetsnaz Company of Razvedchiks as LRRPs. Has anybody info about the IDs of these. Special the one of the 20 Guards Army in 1984. This because I am busy with a scenario for the game Century of Warfare.You ought to make a difference between Soviet razvedchiks and SPETSNAZ.

While the Soviet Army had scouts already since it existed, the first SPETSNAZ company was formed only in April 1979. This unit was created in response to request from the then Afghan dictator (Hafizullah Amin), the Soviets to provide him a guards company. It numbered some 540 troops, most of which were Soviet citizens from central Asia. As, however, not enough of these with needed specialities, backgrounds, and fit for service were found, also Slavic troops were added.

Eventually, by the time the unit was declared ready for service (in October 1979), its main task became a nocturnal attack on the Presidential Palace in Kabul, with which the Soviet invasion on Afghanistan was launched. It was with this purpose that the company was then also deployed to Kabul, sometimes around 20 December 1979.

That was also the first operational mission of the SPETSNAZ: supported by some KGB operators and a BMD-company from 105th GAD, they attacked the palace that was defended by a battalion of Afghan Presidential Guards and fought them down within an hour or so. During some quite fierce fighting in the Palace five SPETSNAZ were killed and two BMDs destroyed.

GazB
02-03-2005, 05:42 AM
While the Soviet Army had scouts already since it existed, the first SPETSNAZ company was formed only in April 1979. This unit was created in response to request from the then Afghan dictator (Hafizullah Amin), the Soviets to provide him a guards company.

Are you trying to suggest that spetsnaz didn't exist before 1979?

Can you explain this a bit more clearly please.

Coop
02-03-2005, 07:23 AM
Obviously, they didn't.

(Rough) Translation from "Boiyna Razvedchikov", p.2:


...The strategy and tactics of the regular Army proved quite useless in combat against Partisans, which were supported by very different terran circumstances - from mountains to deserts - to which the normal troops were not accustomed and the deployment of machinery was especially complicated. The enemy operated in small, fast and manoeuvreable groups, which were always able to evading counterattacks. The first task was therefore to search and find the enemy; this task required different forms of scouting and different unit composition. Best suited for this task proved the already available scout units of the Army and the recce units under direct control of the High Command (GRU). The last were best known under the designation Spetsnaz.

The Spetsnaz appeared in Afghanistan already before the Soviet troops arrived there. In early May 1979 the GRU organized a unit under Lt.Col. Kolesnik in Tchirtchik, the duty of which was safeguarding the then Afghan regime.... From this and other descriptions that can be found in this book, this was the first "Spetsnaz" unit (469 Company) ever organized.

All the others followed (the book reveals also the exact dates and bases when they were founded, their exact designations, commanders etc.), especially after in 1980 the HQ 40th Army had to conclude that up to between 30 and 40% of its troops were unfit for service in the rough climatic circumstances in Afghanistan...

BTW, the book details all the other recce units (regardless what type) deployed in Afghanistan: but nowhere is there any kind of trace that any kind of "Spetsnaz" units existed before in May 1979 that first unit was organized. Commando and recce units, yes, but "Spetsnaz" not.

Even more so, on the p.16 an explanation can be found that the GRU had companies trained for commando attacks (like finding and destroying missile positions, HQs, and other important installations in the rear of enemy positions) already since 1950, and that by 1980 a total of 46 such companies were organized. However, the 469th was the first and - until September 1981 - also the only unit designated as "Spetsnaz".

The next unit became the 177 Company, formed in February 1980 from scouts of the 16th Brigade Moscow MD and the 22nd Brigade of Middle-Asian MD. The unit received its flag officially only in September 1981, and was deployed in Afghanistan from 21 October, under cover designation "2nd Independent MS Battalion"...

Angrykirill
02-03-2005, 09:44 AM
Sorry but can you give me source of what you just posted Coop? Yes i can read russian.

Crazy Dutch
02-03-2005, 11:20 AM
I have read that each Soviet army in the cold war had a Spetsnaz Company of Razvedchiks as LRRPs. Has anybody info about the IDs of these. Special the one of the 20 Guards Army in 1984. This because I am busy with a scenario for the game Century of Warfare.

I might be understanding your question the wrong way, but are you asking about recon units within regular infantry, airborne, and armored units?

16 OBr SpN

No. I mean Spetsnaz with as primary mission long range Reconnaissance. The abrev for it has somebody told me was orr Spn

Coop
02-03-2005, 11:54 AM
Sorry but can you give me source of what you just posted Coop? Yes i can read russian.

http://www.aviapress.com/book/vma/vma003/vma003.jpg

Igor01
02-03-2005, 12:24 PM
Coop, I think the excerpt you quoted refers to the "Musbat" "Musul'manskij Batal'on" that was formed for the purpose of neutralizing Amin and securing the presidential palace (the then Afghan leadership was of course led to believe that they are there for their protection). Kolesnik was in charge of the operation Shtorm-333 (storming of the presidential palace) and the Soviet attack force had GRU, Grom, Zenit and VDV troops.

However, as you correctly stated first Spetsnaz of GRU (the one and only original Spetsnaz) companies were formed in October 1950, not sure where the term descrepancy comes from however when you say that they were not designated as Spetsnaz.

Tally Man
02-03-2005, 02:07 PM
Sounds like there are some real Russian military on this string, I have a very limited amount of knowledge of the Russian military when it comes to their S.O. units. I know that Soviet tactics are really based on movement, movement to contact and tactical formations; where is the order of march do the S.O. unit’s fall under in a MRD and are these the raiding units? Also, can you tell me the dispersion intervals, march column assembly time and average speeds I would like to see if my publications match what the Russian military actual does.
1. Recon patrols of the MRD
2. Forward Detachment
3. Recon of the first echelon
4. Advanced Guard
5. Flank security
6. First echelon regiment
7. Second echelon regiment
8. Rear security

NicNZ
02-03-2005, 03:44 PM
Re: whether SpN are the only units capable of thinking for themselves and taking quick decisions

Cheers for the various replies. I agree that the statement is a huge generalisation. Certainly not all Soviet units or individuals would have suffered some kind of zombification. What I was alluding to is the suggestion alluded by Lokos, that the Soviets relied more heavily than others on 'text book solutions' for military situations. I have read about this elsewhere -- someone posted a few months ago about their experiences in the Balkans working in conjunction with a Russian unit which, if I remember correctly, always seemed to be waiting for confirmation and direction from 'above'. Similarly, Gen John Hackett's book "The Untold Story" which has been discussed elsewhere on these forums suggests that, in the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviet armed forces would have been hampered by an unusually strict and 'textbook oriented' approach to combat.

Regarding what changes have been made... I recall reading somewhere that after the 1991 Gulf War and of course the 1995 Chechen war, serious revision of the Russian armed forces took place, emphasising -- among other things -- less reliance on old Soviet power structures and greater autonomy to units on the ground.

Any thoughts? Feel free to correct any of the above :)

Tally Man
02-03-2005, 04:57 PM
NicNZ I do agree with some of your statement but I feel that the lack of thinking out of the box may come from political and social economic history. For a thousand of years Russian was dominated by a feudal cast system that was dictated by an imperial family telling the people what they could and could not do. Then you had over 80 years of communist dictatorship that if you questioned the authority you where punished and considered a criminal to the system. This would defiantly promote conformity to all authority especially military and not allow one to think out of the box but wait for guidance from higher.

I feel the difference between the structure of the Russian military and the US or NATO military of the Cold War is that most former Soviet block countries never had a professional NCO core. A friend in 10th group that has done joint training in Eastern Europe noticed the lack of initiative that the NCOs had and the Jr. Officers typically took on what US military NCOs do. I would think that this could contribute to the Officers not having enough bandwidth to take on new tasks but wait from direction from their higher. Now this is just a theory and I have no first hand knowledge so please no snipping on my statement but if you feel that this is true please feel free please replay.

GazB
02-03-2005, 10:56 PM
From this and other descriptions that can be found in this book, this was the first "Spetsnaz" unit (469 Company) ever organized.



So Spetsnaz never operated in Angola or the many other hotspots in the world?


Commando and recce units, yes, but "Spetsnaz" not.


If Spetsnaz is neither a commando unit, nor a recce unit, what is it then? A guard unit?


However, the 469th was the first and - until September 1981 - also the only unit designated as "Spetsnaz".


You can obviusly read Russian... I think you need to reevaluate what Spetsnaz stands for and what it means. The fact that you admit they had special purpose troops well before 1979 suggests your claim that special purpose troops did not exist before the 469th is not strictly accurate. It might have been the first unit openly designated Spetsnaz but considering the term applies to what the west refer to as special forces that doen't mean they didn't have any special force troops before the 469th.

Angrykirill
02-04-2005, 08:42 AM
Sorry but can you give me source of what you just posted Coop? Yes i can read russian.

http://www.aviapress.com/book/vma/vma003/vma003.jpg
Thank you.

Coop
02-04-2005, 12:06 PM
Coop, I think the excerpt you quoted refers to the "Musbat" "Musul'manskij Batal'on" that was formed for the purpose of neutralizing Amin and securing the presidential palace (the then Afghan leadership was of course led to believe that they are there for their protection). Kolesnik was in charge of the operation Shtorm-333 (storming of the presidential palace) and the Soviet attack force had GRU, Grom, Zenit and VDV troops.Igor, I've read somewhere about that unit too (IMHO in O'Ballance's "Afghan Wars"), and also rumours that it was disbanded sometimes in 1980 or 1981, after its Muslim members began cooperating with insurgents (nothing of this can be found in this book, however).

While I see your point because of what you say about the Musbat, I'm still not entirely not sure if this is the same unit.

Do you think there might be some special reason why Markovskiy never mentioned that "nick-name"?


However, as you correctly stated first Spetsnaz of GRU (the one and only original Spetsnaz) companies were formed in October 1950, not sure where the term descrepancy comes from however when you say that they were not designated as Spetsnaz.This comes from what the author(s) state in the book, describing what was apparently the first unit designated as "Spetsnaz" and its deployment in Afghanistan. Given that it's clear the Soviet Army had commando-type units from the 1950s, but that the 467 Company was organized for "special" purpose (i.e. initially with the task of providing "special guard" for Afghan dictator, and later for attacking his palace and assassinating him), IMHO, is quite a good reason why to give it a "new" designation. The purpose of that unit was clearly different to that of the commando-type GRU units: it was "special".

My guess is that they originally never meant to designate any additional units that way.


Gaz,
I don't understand why do you have to ask such silly questions. The war in Angola was fought not only before 1979, but also until June 1988. Consequently, there was enough time for Spetsnaz-troops to take part. Besides, I've never heard about any kind of Spetsnaz deployment there, and even less about them fighting in Angola: not that I'd expect you to go into any details, but if you have any, provide them.

Also, do us all here a favour and stop putting words into my mouth so that we don't have to go through your crap again and ruin this thread too: I never said the Spetsnaz is "neither a commando unit, nor a recce unit", and certainly not that it's a "guard unit". That's a product of your imagination. If you're as knowledgeable about Spetsnaz as you'd like to present yourself, you should actualy know that "special" units are usually considered as very much capable of both of it, and then some more...

The fact that I mentioned "commando companies" attached to GRU before 1979 means not that Spetsnaz existed before 1979. Re-read that post, and recall the fact that there are also "rangers", "green baretts" and "DELTA" forces with the US Army, meaning there must be some kind of difference between them too... Or, are you now going to explain us that there is no difference in capabilities and purpose between DELTA and US Army Rangers, or SEALs and "SOC" US Marine battalions?

Dima-RussianArms
02-04-2005, 12:38 PM
Coop, put this in a translator

24 октября 1950 года директивой Военного министра СССР № Орг/2/395832 Маршала Советского Союза Василевского и начальника Генерального штаба генерала С.М. Штеменко в общевойсковых и механизированных армиях, а также в военных округах, не имеющих армейских объединений, под руководством Главного Разведывательного Управления Генерального штаба было создано сорок шесть отдельных рот специального назначения численностью сто двадцать человек каждая

Officialy "spetsnaz" was born October 24,1950 (according to the guy who issued the order ;) )

Unofficialy there were various units in the Soviet military performing "spetsnaz type of missons" since the Spanish Civil War.

Jedburgh
02-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Spetsnaz origins can be traced back to early paramilitary ops under the Cheka and to Desants who operated behind Finnish lines during the '39-'40 Winter War. But real conceptual forerunners of Cold War-era Spetsnaz are more accurately linked with the WWII Recce-Diversionary Bdes, the NKVD Special Groups, and the Recon Det of HQ, Northern Fleet. Assault engineer Spetsnaz and the Osnoz recon det of the Pacific Fleet were also heavily engaged and effectively employed in a wide variety of special ops at the end of the war.

Post-WWII, the GRU and KGP set up a rough division of SOF missions, with KGB paramilitary personnel within Dept 8, Directorate S (Illegals). In shades of Afghanistan '79, the GRU Spetsnaz were on the ground before the arrival of the 103rd Guards Abn Div in Prague '68.

But, when it comes down to it, most Soviet-era Spetsnaz were more akin to the US Army Rangers as far as capabilities go, with only a small professional core having anything like the operational potential of US Army SF or the Brit SAS.

All this bickering over the origins of Spetsnaz is an honest indicator of how difficult it is to pin down a true definition of Soviet SOF. I believe that six critieria must be met for any Soviet-era unit to even be considered as Spetsnaz:
1. Specialized mission
Ground: spetsialnogo naznacheniya = special designation/purpose
osobogo naznacheniya = special designation/purpose
otdel'nyi = independent
Naval: razvedyvatel'nyi otriad shtaba .... flota = recon det of HQ ..... fleet
2. Unique organization and/or equipment
3. High political reliability
4. Extraordinary selection and training - physical and political screening, demolition skills, recon, employment of NATO weapons, etc.
5. Unusually high level of subordination - Spetsnaz units were most frequently subordinated to STAVKA or Front. Fleet Spetsnaz units were sometimes subordinated to a region - obodoronitel'nyi raion - for an op.
6. Employed at all levels of conflict and war - executing deep raids, recon, partisan support/coin, prisoner snatches, assassinations - mokrie dela, etc.

GazB
02-04-2005, 09:43 PM
I don't understand why do you have to ask such silly questions.

I don't think they are silly. You made some statements. I could have jumped up and down and said you know nothing blah blah blah, but instead I asked you questions about what you said to maybe understand further what you were trying to say and if you said what I thought you said.

If you think it is silly of me to want you to be clear about what you say then I am happy to be silly.


Besides, I've never heard about any kind of Spetsnaz deployment there, and even less about them fighting in Angola: not that I'd expect you to go into any details, but if you have any, provide them.


I never said they fought there. I will try and find the article.


Also, do us all here a favour and stop putting words into my mouth so that we don't have to go through your crap again and ruin this thread too: I never said the Spetsnaz is "neither a commando unit, nor a recce unit", and certainly not that it's a "guard unit".

Look at my quote above. I was merely asking you to clarify what you were trying to say. I though it was a bit ambiguous.


If you're as knowledgeable about Spetsnaz as you'd like to present yourself, you should actualy know that "special" units are usually considered as very much capable of both of it, and then some more...


Yes, I am always correcting newbies like 16 OBr SpN and yourself about the world in general as you are both still so young and wet behind the ears... :P

I mean when you said what you said in your first post on this thread I immediately corrected everything you said that was wrong... didn't I? :roll:

(If that is too subtle and sarcastic 16 OBr SpN and guys like him that post here are the only reason I come here... even you appearing here adds something to this forum if you could just get over yourself and not be so defensive and easily offended.)


The fact that I mentioned "commando companies" attached to GRU before 1979 means not that Spetsnaz existed before 1979. Re-read that post, and recall the fact that there are also "rangers", "green baretts" and "DELTA" forces with the US Army, meaning there must be some kind of difference between them too... Or, are you now going to explain us that there is no difference in capabilities and purpose between DELTA and US Army Rangers, or SEALs and "SOC" US Marine battalions?

Perhaps you might like to read a book called "The Russian Elite:inside spetsnaz and the airborne forces" by Carey Schofield.
Specifically chapter three which starts:

On 2nd May 1979 Colonel Vassily Kolesnik of the SPETSNAZ (my emphasis) staff in Moscow was summoned to his boss's office. Petr Ivashutin, the chief of the GRU, tasked the colonel to fly to Tashkent, the same day, to start forming a special purpose battalion. The personnel were to be selected from Turkestan and Central Asian Military districts.

Also it is quite clear that spetsnaz units predate the 70s in the paragraph headed Spetsnaz brigades formed near the bottom of page 34.

What was created by Colonel Kolesnik was a seperate Spetsnaz unit that was composed of ethnic groups that would operate well in Afghanistan. If US special forces gathered together a group that could speak arabic to go to Iraq would you say that that special forces had just been created? When the NSA recruit people that speak persian does that mean a whole new branch of the NSA is created?


Unofficialy there were various units in the Soviet military performing "spetsnaz type of missons" since the Spanish Civil War.

Even before then in the Russian revolution the Reds had units of specially trained marksmen that would be given a target and be ordered to keep attacking that target until it was dead. (targets were normally enemy commanders or enemy snipers if they had any).

Crazy Dutch
03-02-2005, 04:39 PM
I have read that each Soviet army in the cold war had a Spetsnaz Company of Razvedchiks as LRRPs. Has anybody info about the IDs of these. Special the one of the 20 Guards Army in 1984. This because I am busy with a scenario for the game Century of Warfare.

I have hear from somebody, that this mayby where not spetsnaz but normal razvedchiki trained for LRRP operations. These companies where named
rota glubinnoy ravedki or razvedyvatel'no-'desantnaya rota

Does somebody know more about this?

Tally Man
03-02-2005, 07:18 PM
It's been so long since I went to SPLC I am not sure of the unit designation for the recon patrols of the MRD but I remember that they had dismounted scouts that had similar missions as a LRSD unit.

Son_Of_Suvorov
03-02-2005, 10:02 PM
Gaz,
I don't understand why do you have to ask such silly questions. The war in Angola was fought not only before 1979, but also until June 1988. Consequently, there was enough time for Spetsnaz-troops to take part. Besides, I've never heard about any kind of Spetsnaz deployment there, and even less about them fighting in Angola: not that I'd expect you to go into any details, but if you have any, provide them.

Please stop making yourself out to be such an expert. Soviet Morpeh (Marine) elite troop volunteers (including members of the Morpeh Spetsnaz, which was formed in the mid 60s) have fought in Angola, Ethiopia, Egypt, Somalia, Sierra-Leone, Congo and Mozambique from the 60s to the 80s, and that's just in Africa. They also fought in Syria, Yemen, Iraq and Iran, fought and organized resistance in Vietnam (organizing local resistance is a big part of what US special forces do, isn't it?) and defended Cuba in the Bay of Pigs invasion. And that is just a small list of the officially denied conflicts they have participated in. You can read more about it here (http://www.smp.by.ru/page-11.htm), and I think this interview with a veteran (http://www.smp.by.ru/page-11-4.htm) offers a very interesting perspective.

16 OBr SpN
04-05-2005, 03:13 AM
Obviously, they didn't.

The Spetsnaz appeared in Afghanistan already before the Soviet troops arrived there. In early May 1979 the GRU organized a unit under Lt.Col. Kolesnik in Tchirtchik, the duty of which was safeguarding the then Afghan regime.... From this and other descriptions that can be found in this book, this was the first "Spetsnaz" unit (469 Company) ever organized. [/quote]

You are talking about the Muslim Batallion. Commander - Major Halbaev.


BTW, the book details all the other recce units (regardless what type) deployed in Afghanistan: but nowhere is there any kind of trace that any kind of "Spetsnaz" units existed before in May 1979 that first unit was organized. Commando and recce units, yes, but "Spetsnaz" not.

Obviously, you do not fully understand the meaning of the word "Spetsnaz" in this context.


Even more so, on the p.16 an explanation can be found that the GRU had companies trained for commando attacks (like finding and destroying missile positions, HQs, and other important installations in the rear of enemy positions) already since 1950, and that by 1980 a total of 46 such companies were organized. However, the 469th was the first and - until September 1981 - also the only unit designated as "Spetsnaz".

Wrong again. Like I said before, they were the only ones carrying out the UW missions until early 1982.


The next unit became the 177 Company, formed in February 1980 from scouts of the 16th Brigade Moscow MD and the 22nd Brigade of Middle-Asian MD. The unit received its flag officially only in September 1981, and was deployed in Afghanistan from 21 October, under cover designation "2nd Independent MS Battalion"...

Wrong again.
1) 370 OO SpN was from the 16th Brigade.
2) 177 OO SpN from the 22nd Brigade.
These are not Companies, but Batallion sized units.

You can find a more detailed and accurate info in a thread that Hist2004 started a long time ago. ;)