Airsuperiority you say, hehe:)

[Russian Texan]

About a year ago on "TLC" I saw a preview of 5th gen fighters: F22, Eurofighter and Su37, now I found this
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/superflanker.htm
http://www.ipilot.com/media/su-37-1.avi
The video is kinda crappy and has russian voice over it but gives you a small taste of the best dogfighter ever,period.

[budanski]

Thats great and all for airshows, but seeing that most engagements will occur BVR, I don't see that as a major advantage.

The Russians investing in thrust vectoring, the americans in "first kill" capabilities. we'll see how this pans out.

FYI, the U.S. has dropped the "air superiority" and adopted "air dominance"

[Russian Texan]

I absolutelly agree with you, but if it ever gets down to upclose and personal...
It's like a sports car - almost useless in day to day driving but an adrenalline producer on a weekend :)

Besides you can't show off BVR at the airshows :)

[Seoulstriker]

I absolutelly agree with you, but if it ever gets down to upclose and personal...
It's like a sports car - almost useless in day to day driving but an adrenalline producer on a weekend :)

Besides you can't show off BVR at the airshows :)

the days of dogfighting are over. it's all about air dominance budanski stated before.

besides when are we ever going to fight against a country that has the budget to buy the latest sukhoi aircraft? china? not yet...

[budanski]

I'd pay good money to ride in one though. :D

[AFACadet]

Yes, the Su-37 can do some amazing stunts...

Little behind on the times there though.


One Su-37 crashed. The other got zero interest from both Russia and the international community, so it was converted back to an Su-35.

In other words, there are no more Su-37s on the planet and there will never another one built either (the Su-30MK is doing a lot better).

[Trigger]

I would never say dogfighting is gone forever. That's what they said before Vietnam, then they had to relearn it all again.
Now, in regards to ultra-maneuverable aircraft, if you stick a pilot with relatively low flying hours in one of those and pit him against a veteran in an F-16...
The Viper will eat the rookie for lunch.

[Dmitri]

yeah, but it could be the other way too ;)

[Apogee]

The X-29 (I think thats the nomenclature) used thrust vectoring as well. That was a pretty awsome machine. I think I saw videos of it on Wings a couple of years ago.

[budanski]

The X-29 (I think thats the nomenclature) used thrust vectoring as well. That was a pretty awsome machine. I think I saw videos of it on Wings a couple of years ago.

X-29 was the forward swept wing experimental plane. I believe you meant the U.S./German X-31. :D

[Russian Texan]

In other words, there are no more Su-37s on the planet
They actually had at least one flying at Maks 2003 several weeks ago.

http://www.flymig.com/maks_2003/images/su-37.cobra.htm

I don't know where from you got you info about it crashing but I have never heard anything about it.
Would like to see your source

And as far as no one expresing any interest in Su 37 - wrong again, what do you think I'm doing right now, I'm expresing my intrest :)
The fact is that Rus airforce would love to have it in numbers but its not going to happen anytime soon, they are kinda tight on money you know... China drools over it too but it's not for sale yet

[obd]

I have heard alot about the new Su-37. There are several very good British military focused aircraft mags such as "Air International" , "Air Combat Journal" etc. which I subscirbe to and they have had alot to say about the combat applications of the su 37 design. In short, it has very little application outside certain dogfighting applications with all aspect missiles such as the "Arrow" and "Archer" dogfighting missles. The problem is that the Su37 has a bigger radar section than a flying van and it is heavy. When it does those manuevers it loses energy so fast that its only real chance is a single shot. If it misses or if the pilot F's up, then its game over for the su 37. Also, the US F-22 is capable of SOME of those same manuevers, plus it has both IR and Radar stealth, it employs better missiles with higher "pk" rates, and it has longer range and higher cruising altitude and better radar and better communications. Yes, the Su 37 is a great dogfighter, but it aint ever gonna make it within dogfighting range. The f-22 has the ability to deny the fight and chose the time and place of the fight. Kinda like in WW2 when the Japs kept using the A6m "Zero" without upgrading it much. Pretty soon, fighters like the US F4u Corsair could just ignore it because zeros could climb with them or cruise at anywhere near thier speeds!!! What good is manuever if you dont have the range or speed ot reach the enemy. SPEED is the key my freinds!! As they say in US and British fighter schools: "Speed is life"

[budanski]

And as far as no one expresing any interest in Su 37 - wrong again, what do you think I'm doing right now, I'm expresing my intrest :)

rofl

[Russian Texan]

Who cares about BVR, IT LOOKS GREAT AT AIRSHOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[budanski]

Its sure does.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/potw/20020802/plane.jpg

*not a SU-37

[Russian Texan]

I think that's a Ukranian Mig 29 that killed 90 people when it crashed, very unfortunate accident. Still BVR is great but there is nothing like seeing Blue Angels or Thunderbirds above your head.

[budanski]

I believe its an SU-27 Flanker (Ukranian)

heres a little tidbit.
http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/su27/scale_models.jpg

Scale models show the relative sizes of the different fighters. From the left: MiG-29; F-14D; Su-27; F-15; F/A-18. Note the tiny relative size of the F/A-18

[Russian Texan]

Sorry, it was Su 27
http://millennium-debate.org/suntel28july022.htm

[AFACadet]

Russian Texan,

I hate to break it to ya, but you heard me correctly. There are no more Su-37s. One crashed, the other was converted back to an Su-35. The one at Maks 2003 was NOT an Su-37, it was a Su-30MK. Remember, I said that aircraft has interest and countries are buying it.

After trying to sell the Su-37 for a number of years, and not a single order, the company knew there was no future for the aircraft, so it took out the engines and avionics, and made it back into an Su-35.

[Russian Texan]

Evidence, evidence... Show me the evidence, witnesses, addresses, names, phone numbers, pictures....
Here is mine
http://www.flymig.com/maks_2003/images/su-37.cobra.htm

[AFACadet]

Ok, do you know the Su-37 is a SINGLE seat only aircraft? That pic you keep on showing is a two seat aircraft. That alone should have let you know that is not a -37.


You will get your sources in about a day or two.

[budanski]

Its probably a promo shot for the event. Probably from prior events and such.

I don't see it in the image gallery (http://www.flymig.com/maks_pictures/) from the show.

[Russian Texan]

I don't care if it has a seating capasity of a greyhound bus, it is still Su 37. You know how I know, because in front of me is a calendar "Fighter jets of the World" and guess what: inside of it is the same plane as at that link, with the same "desrt camo" colour scheme, oh.. and wait it has the same number -"711"

[He219]

Systems dominate! :D

http://www.airforce-technology.com/contractor_images/rafael/derby2.jpg

Derby is a fully developed, lightweight, medium range, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capable missile.


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/fmraam.jpghttp://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/common/AA/images/fmraam-cutout.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/meteor.jpghttp://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/common/AA/images/meteor-cutout.jpg

http://www.softwar.net/AA12.JPG
R-77 RVV-AE (http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/Paris97/lbg97ag_rvvae_a.jpg) AMRAAMski ;) and the thrust vectored R-73 (http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/Paris97/lbg97ag_r73e_b.jpg)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/aim-120-readyfox.jpg
Fire and Forget! ;)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/amraam-dvic408.jpg

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/arm/arm10a.jpg

NASA Thrust Vectoring (http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/NIX/vector-aircraft.html) trials

And don't forget about the VSTOL Thrust Vectoring X-35B
http://www.ets-news.com/images/JSF1.jpg

Those Russian Fighters do look great though....

[Apogee]

Good thing we have the Ol' Air Force (aka ****** miscounduct) Academy to set us straight.

Just kidding buddy nice to see another academy guy on here.

[Seoulstriker]

what we really need is a very reliable IFF system so that we can shoot our missiles BVR.

AWACS works pretty well, but...

[perdurabo]

well Russians got superb airframe but in modern air fight counts only electronics systems (longer range radars quietter radars etc...) so i would love to see russian airframe of Su30XX with western electronics

[AFACadet]

Got some dates and places.

The Su-37 with bort number 711 crashed outside of Zhukovsky on 19th December 2002. The pilot was Yuriy Vashchuk. He was on a test flight to test the stability and control of the airplane during high-G maneuvering. During the execution of one of the maneuvers, the airman noticed a failure of all SDU channels and the aircraft became uncontrollable.

I was mistaken, this was the only Su-37 made and it was coverted back to a Su-35 in 2000 at Tsagi. That was when the French avionics were taken out and replaced by Russian ones, the AL-37FUs were taken out and replaced with AL-31Fs.


To further back that up, if you look at the aircraft list at Maks 2003, the Su present were the Su-30, Su-30MK, Su-27. Those on another forum I go to who actually went to Maks 2003 in person can back this up.


USMA_SCUBA,

Don't you think that was a little inappropriate, especially given this setting? It's nice to see you too though.

[Russian Texan]

Again, I base my statement on the picture that says "Su 37 performing Cobra" and it has the same number as on older pictures + I wasn't able to find any info on the web about it crashing. So if you have the link post it, prove it with something that will stand in the court of law :) and not with the statements like: It crashed in my friend's neighbor's relative backyard
I don't know how many of them are out there, altough I think you are right since they been showing the same aircraft since 1996.

[He219]

I thought there were only two Su-37's ever made, the 711 and 712 (http://www.aeronautics.ru/sukhoi01.htm).

I could be wrong.....

:|

http://www.flying-wings.com/airshows/lebourget/thumbnails/01.jpghttp://www.flying-wings.com/airshows/lebourget/thumbnails/05.jpghttp://www.flying-wings.com/airshows/lebourget/thumbnails/06.jpghttp://www.flying-wings.com/airshows/lebourget/thumbnails/08.jpghttp://www.flying-wings.com/airshows/lebourget/thumbnails/10.jpg
Paris Air Show 1999 (http://www.flying-wings.com/airshows/lebourget/lb99.htm)

[Russian Texan]

I guess that makes two: 711 & 712

[Apogee]

Just busting your chops buddy. This is a pretty good heartedly group, so don't take to much offense to something as small as that.

[Russian Texan]

Those pictures from 1999 Su 30MK crash
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/awst008.htm

[He219]

They are tough to tell appart.

:oops:

[Vance]

I have the video of that crash.

[Trigger]

AFACadet wrote:

USMA_SCUBA,
Don't you think that was a little inappropriate, especially given this setting? It's nice to see you too though.

USMA_SCUBA wrote:

Just busting your chops buddy. This is a pretty good heartedly group, so don't take to much offense to something as small as that.

Yeah man, you shouldn't start worrying until someone calls you a polesmoker or martinexsquaddie asks if you want to play a nice friendly game of 'staples' :D

[Coolie]

But AFACadet,

Wasnt the Su-37 best because of its plasma stealth?

[AFACadet]

News on the crash itself:

http://www.avia.ru/cgi/news/news.cgi?action=geten&id=1040376226

http://english.pravda.ru/region/2002/12/19/41064.html

This arcraft was bort 711


This comes from a January article of Aircraft Illustrated:

“Interestingly, an AVPK Sukhoi spokesman confirmed to Aircraft Illustrated that the TVC system developed using Saturn Lyulka AF-31P engines with thrust vectoring nozzles has now been dropped…. The famous Su-37 demonstrator (Bort 711) that wowed us at Farnborough in 1996, has reverted to standard AL-31F engines without TVC nozzles and has been re-designated as an Su-35”

From aviation.ru:

"Su-37 [36K] (AKA Su-27M2) - Proposed multi-role combat aircraft with foreplanes, vectored thrust engines, and super-maneurability features. Digital electrical remote control system. Two AL-31FP engines (1000 hours) with trust vectoring nozzles (250 hours, maybe rlolonged to 500 hours). Max speed 2500km/h. 14 (another data: 12) undercarriages. (first one: t/n 711, converted to Su-35 state"

On another part of the site:

"Su-37 (AKA Su-27M2, full thrust vectoring AL-31FU, t/n 711) >>>
Since 2001[?] converted (and renamed) back to Su-35 by removal of thrust-vectoring engines."

[He219]

Trigger, I thought it was called the 'Tractor Pull'....

Ahhh
:o

[Trigger]

^d'oh!
You are correct. I was thinking of 'Speckles'...either way :D

[Coolie]

Evidence, evidence... Show me the evidence, witnesses, addresses, names, phone numbers, pictures....
Here is mine
http://www.flymig.com/maks_2003/images/su-37.cobra.htm

Hey Russian Texan, nice site...lots of cool pics.
http://www.flymig.com/maks_pictures/html/by.Sukhoi.htm
Why is the Su-37 not listed as an exhibit on that site though?

[Russian Texan]

Listen AFAcadet, you are losing credibility real fast - post the link, not the quote :bash:

Those links that you provided say that Su35 crashed and nothing about the plane's number, color scheme, it's conversion to something else or pictures of the crash itself.
So come back when you have some real evidence.

As for it not beign listed, I don't know, may be it was canceled. Back in '97 they had to cancel the second day of Su 37 flights because of technical problems.

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/display.html

So even if, and that is only if you can prove it, 711 crashed what happened to 712?

[AFACadet]

Ok dude, your just floundering now. I've given enough stuff to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the the Su-37s were changed back to Su-35s (the mag article and the .ru site) and that the Su-35 crashed exactly when I said it did backed up by russian news sources.


I've gone even further and said WHO the pilot was, WHAT he was doing, WHERE it crashed, WHAT caused the crash, the bort number of the aircraft, and the aircraft at Maks 2003.

You must think its odd that not a single picture was taken of the Su-37 after the '99 or 2000 timeframe, but for some reason choose to not think about it.

I've clearly laid out what you requested (and in fact going well beyond the minimum amount of information). If you still don't want to believe it, you don't have to--that's your choice.

[Russian Texan]

I've given enough stuff to prove

No you did't, what you gave was: "he said, she said", for the third time -LINKS, post links that prove your data :bash:

Like I have said, even if 711(and there is no proof of that) crashed, what happened to 712 ?

Or may be I'm just in denial 'cause I love that plane :) (joke)

I have a simple solution to our argument: Lets just wait for the next major international airshow, if it is there - I win, if not - you do. Agree?

[AFACadet]

Fine with me

[GazB]

"Wasnt the Su-37 best because of its plasma stealth?"

No, Plasma stealth will probably be first integrated into the Su-32s airframe (that is the two seat side by side Flanker with the toilet and microwave and enough room to have a stand up or lie down inside the cockpit.)

For info on Flankers I would reccomend:

http://www.flankers.co.uk/

Ken is very thorough and takes great photos.

The only difference between the Su-35 and the Su-37 was cockpit layout (different MFDs and a sidestick controller as well as standard stick controls) and the fact that the Su-37 was fitted with TVC. Upgrades of the flight control system has allowed the Su-35 to match the Su-37s manouverability without the use of TVC and the Su-35 has been accepted into Russian AF service.

[Coolie]

AAAHHHHH so THATS plasma stealth...A kitchen appliance, like a toaster oven maybe?

[LORD_BUNGLA]

well, the russians aren't that far behind, maybe even ahead :) of the US. Russia's 5th gen PAK FA sounds ppretty kool, with a "plasma stealth" and some other stuff.

But the truth is, the US and Russia aren't gonna have a war in like a billion years ( imean that litterally)

So we will never know who is better.