Debate over combat roles for women in IDF

[He219]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=454577

Israeli army Sgt. Sima Adiv, a commander of a rocket launcher unit, checks the bullets of a fellow soldier's machine gun after he finished his shift of guard at a military base near the West Bank town of Ramallah Friday Oct. 24, 2003. The circumstances surrounding the killing of a female soldier last week in an army base in the Gaza Strip, has sparked a debate as to wether the Israeli army should rescind its decision to place women in many fighting units. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=454591

Israeli army Sgt. Sima Adiv, a commander of a rocket launcher unit, walks next to a fellow soldier at a military base near the West Bank town of Ramallah Friday Oct. 24, 2003. The circumstances surrounding the killing of a female soldier last week in an army base in the Gaza Strip, has sparked a debate as to wether the Israeli army should rescind its decision to place women in many fighting units. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=451241

An Israeli soldier grieves at the funeral of Israeli Sgt. Sarit Shneior-Sinior in the city of Ramle, near Tel Aviv, Sunday Oct. 26, 2003. Shneior-Sinior was one of three soldiers killed Friday when two Islamic militants cut through a fence around the Jewish settlement of Netzarim in the Gaza Strip and broke into the barracks of soldiers guarding the area. They went from room to room shooting sleeping soldiers, killing the three, and wounding two. (AP Photo/Yossi Aloni)

I think that should be a decision for each woman soldier to make. I'm all for equal opportunities. What are your thoughts?

:)

[IDFM203]

nice pics..........

here is an article about them in todays paper.


Girlillas' ready for action

By Dea Hadar

Their gear is customized from top to toe, they are gung-ho and they fantasize about going into the casbah in Nablus. The female fighters of Caracal are unmoved by a new army study that casts doubts on their physical abilities

"I'm the driver," says Livnat Aharoni, a Caracal
(light infantry company) fighter, as she sat in
the Jeep next to a male buddy from her company,
Saguy Wasserman. The two looked out over the
spectacular, ruddy, silent hills of Jordan at
sunset last Thursday, refusing to allow the
pastoral view to soothe the fighting spirit that
burns within them.




"We're waiting for something
to happen. We are gung-ho,
totally gung-ho. I wish a
gang of terrorists would
hurry up and break through
the fence. Just kidding. But
we're dying for a bit of
action," Aharoni adds.

The company, in which

two-thirds of the soldiers are female, has been
stationed at the Yotvata post for two months.
It has had beginner's "luck" so far: "For eight
years there hasn't been a catch here, and then
the first week we were here we caught someone.
It was like heaven, really," recalls Aharoni,
drinking thirstily from a bag of chocolate
milk. "If a terrorist appears in front of me
now, there's no doubt what I'll do to him. I'll
get up and shoot and attack him. Because I love
my country and I want to do something for it,
and the fact that I'm a girl doesn't mean that
I need to sit in an office and file things."

"All in all, it's nice here. A bit too quiet. Me
and Livnat, we're a winning team. We can do a
lot more than [what we are doing now in] this
quiet. In general, we're a bit fed up here,"
admits Wasserman, bored and licking a colorful
ice cream on a stick.

There was no ****** tension evident in the air.
There was a strong soldierly solidarity between
the two. Among the trainees of March, 2003,
there is only one couple, who went together to
a squad commanders' course three weeks ago.
Wasserman says that before he enlisted, he had
his heart set on a combat posting.

"The soldiers from the companies that served in
the territories laughed at us when we were in
boot camp. They said that Caracal is for homos
and lesbians. They called us pussies, but we
didn't take any notice and we are proving
ourselves. For example, on patrol yesterday,
Jordanians came and talked to us. There were
all kinds of strange movements. It was
interesting," he explains.

Strange movements? "Apparently in the end it was
all kinds of animals," he said disappointedly.

The quiet along the borders with Jordan and
Egypt leaves time for dreaming. Between the
endless snacks and the hot pursuit of foxes and
rabbits, the female fighters fantasize about
going into the casbah in Nablus. "Maybe they'll
transfer us further north than the Jericho
sector," Aharoni says.

Do you feel like serving there?

Aharoni: "Sure."

What about Jenin?

"Jenin? I'd love to!"

Too tough?

The nickname "girlillas" that the female
fighters of Caracal (literally, a species of
wildcat) have been given amuses them. The fact
that they serve for two-and-a-half years (women
recruited since July of this year will serve
for three, and be in the reserves until age 45)
does not bother them. They are, however, very
annoyed by statements like the one made by
Housing and Construction Minister Effie Eitam
(National Religious Party), who last week after
the killing of two female soldiers at Netzarim
said that the training and limited abilities of
female soldiers do not enable them to take part
in combat, and called for their removal from
combat posts.

The publication of the findings of a new study
done by the Israel Defense Forces Medical
Corps, at the initiative of the commander of
the ground forces, that determined that the
physical demands posed by most combat tasks in
the army are too tough for female soldiers, is
also a sensitive issue for them. They
scornfully dismiss the notion that they are
unable to go on long marches, find it hard to
lift tank shells, are too short, are too weak
and do not eat enough, as well, of course, as
the conclusions of that study: the objection to
the possibility that in the future, girls will
be able to be integrated into additional roles
in the IDF.

In the language of the study, women have "a very
low likelihood of surviving" in a role such as
infantry fighter, operator of heavy machinery
in the Engineering Corps, tank crew member or
fighter in a commando or special force.

"It's the clearest thing in the world to me that
girls can be fighters. I don't see myself doing
anything else. It really annoys me that people
say things and don't come and see what we're
doing here, first hand," says Liron
Shaharabani, 20, a squad commander from Kiryat
Ono. Her appearance is customized from head to
toe: a dog-tag cover with the unit's emblem,
linked rifle magazines and, of course, a short
version of the M16.

"We're holding this line the way it's supposed
to be done. Even if it's a tiny bit harder for
me as a girl," says Shaharabani, "that doesn't
mean I can't do it. I grew up in this company
and I really believe in it. It annoys me that
people look down on this sector. I'm not
dissing anything, but we really are capable of
more. Our aspiration is to get to the seam line
and with time maybe to go inside. I'm saying to
the IDF: Open the door and anyone who succeeds
in going in, why not let her?"

Shaharabani's confidence derives from her
position as squad commander. According to her,
she has never encountered any questioning of
her authority on the part of the boys, who are
a minority in the squad. "They are enlisted
along with the girls, and we teach them
everything. In the beginning it's hard for
them, but later on they integrate well. All of
us here are comrades in arms. There's no
difference."

"It seems disgusting to me that they want to
close combat roles to girls," says Liron Mazor
from Bat Yam angrily. "Why doesn't the state
believe in the ability of girls? I'm in the
field every day. So it's true that girls have
certain physical problems, but all of them are
capable. It all depends on the scale of effort
and on fitness. In fact, it's all in the mind.
Anyone who says it's too hard for her isn't
gung-ho. The fitness comes with the commitment.
The commanders don't even know how committed I
am. Only my girlfriends know," she says.

"What a sweetie," comments Shaharabani in
response. "I know exactly how gung-ho she is."
(It should be noted that the Hebrew term for
gung-ho is literally "poisoned")

Committed to women

In the IDF they fear that statements and
studies that cast doubt on the functioning of
women in combat positions will harm the high
motivation evidenced by the new fighting women,
and the desire of girls who are now in the
recruiting process to assume those positions.
An attempt to ask the IDF chief of staff's
adviser on women's issues, Brigadier General
Devora Hassid, about the findings of the study
was interrupted by a representative of the IDF
Spokesman's Office, who said: "We are not
interested in commenting on the study."

According to Hassid, who took up the post two
months ago: "The IDF is committed in terms of
values, legally and morally, to letting women
integrate into combat positions. On this issue
the policy has not changed. We intend to
continue to open new roles to women and the
position of the chief of staff is to expand and
establish the roles in which women will be
integrated into combat units. Today, about 83
percent of the positions in the IDF are open to
women. Before the IDF opens a combat position
that requires physical fitness, studies are
undertaken to determine that it is possible to
integrate both boys and girls without
endangering their health. The proportion of
women serving in combat roles will increase and
the proportion of administrative workers will
decline."

At the present time, are there young women
serving in combat roles in which the physical
requirements are too stringent for them?

Hassid: "I cannot give you an answer to that
question."

Today, three years after it was decided to amend
the law to allow for the recruitment of girls
into combat roles, following the petition
submitted by Alice Miller (who wanted to join
the pilots' course), about 450 young women are
serving as fighters in the ground forces. Girls
operate MLRS launchers in the artillery corps,
serve as atomic, biological and chemical
decontaminators, and are expected to join the
dog-handlers unit in the near future. For
fighting women, special lightweight boots have
been designed, as well as a light flak jacket
suited to a woman's body structure, smaller
helmets and other equipment tailored to their
size.

It has been more than two years since the
establishment of the co-ed Caracal companies,
the flagship of female fighters in the ground
forces. The soldiers' trajectory in the unit
begins with a four-month boot camp, which is
followed by brief training maneuvers and
nonstop routine security activity until their
stint is up. The three companies that have been
established, in which the proportion of women
is about two-thirds, are considered infantry
units of the second rank. The level of fitness
and combat abilities expected of the fighters
is lower than in the Nahal brigades, the
Paratroops, Golani and Givati. In December,
2004, a Caracal unit is expected to become a
battalion and the possibility that a female
battalion commander might be appointed is a
source of pride among the female soldiers.

"This is a process that is ripe. Women have gone
the combat route, some of them have become
officers, there is a company commander and
there are candidates for the appointment. If a
woman is appointed battalion commander, the
message will be that the sky is the limit,"
says Brigadier General Hassid.

A savings for the army

The head of the regular manpower division at
army headquarters, Colonel Nissim Barda, says
the integration of female soldiers in routine
security operations along the Jordanian and
Egyptian borders translates into savings in
reserve units and standing army combat units,
which are then freed for service in the
territories. According to him, "This
contributes directly to the release of
resources for operational missions. Instead of
them we would have had to maintain an entire
battalion of male fighters. We don't have the
luxury of not realizing the incredible
potential there is in female soldiers. Their
functioning is excellent."

Today, he adds, "we know that the stress that
can be placed on a female soldier's muscle is
lower than the stress that can be placed on a
man's muscle. But the results of the study are
still under discussion. In all the fields we
have opened, there are no restrictions on
girls, and no additional field will be opened
that could cause damage to women. We are not
taking any risk with the health of female
soldiers only in order to be nice."

The women who call themselves Caracals, a kind
of desert predator, spend the free hours
between patrols nurturing their rampant esprit
de corps. The unit's emblem of bloodthirsty
felines decorates nearly every flag, shirt or
dog-tag cover, but along the peace borders
there isn't much to prey on, apart from snacks
that prove consolation on the endless patrols.


The reactions on the street, when they go home
once every two-and-a-half weeks, contribute to
their high morale. "People stop me and say,
`Wow! You have red [combat] boots.' Girls stop
us and ask how they too can get to Caracal,"
says Shaharabani.

Moran Sarfati, now a Hummer driver in Caracal,
served as an office worker in the IDF until she
asked to go to the tiny post in the south.

"I wanted to be a fighter. It looks to me like
the only job for girls in which it is possible
to contribute," says Sarfati, who expresses the
wish to go to the Gaza Strip - "with pleasure."
In the meantime, she is encouraged by the two
infiltrators she helped catch during her first
week on the line. "It was really fun that it
happened just when I arrived. A real
experience."

What did you do to them after you caught them?

Sarfati: "I gave them something to drink."

"What girls," jokes one of the other girls in
the company.

"I know that they call this a peaceful border,
but even along boring borders things happen,"
says Mazor.

Do other girls tell you you're a sucker?

Mazor: "Yes, but they're just jealous. They go
home every day and they don't even know what
their role is. I've chosen this life," says
Mazor, though she admits that she feels like a
second-class fighter. "I'm not a fighter like
some of the boys, but this is as much of a
fighter as I can be at the moment."

"At first I didn't want to come here all that
much, but my father is in the career army so I
was taught to be gung-ho at home. Now I'm glad.
I'm here to prove that girls can do
everything," says Nitzan Keren, who was on
kitchen duty that day. In boot camp, she says,
it was harder. "I like the territories, the
action. My mother said it was too dangerous, so
I told her that it didn't depend on her. I
didn't come here to sit with my legs crossed.
Like, am I a fighter or am I not?" she asks
rhetorically, as she follows the orders of
Manny the cook.

What's it like to be in a kitchen with
Caracals?

Manny: "Nothing special. I mean, it's just a
woman.

Later, when no Caracal is in earshot, he says
that they don't shower often enough. "Sometimes
I send them to take a shower. They sweat,
they're not well-groomed. Sometimes they come
crying to me that they've gained weight. All
told - girls. But a woman in a combat unit
loses some of her femininity. They're together
too much. They become like men: They see a girl
in civvies and they say, `Wow, that one's a
looker.' But I really admire what they're doing
here. They are contributing a lot, and they
strengthen the female ***. To tell you the
truth, sometimes I'm a little shocked by their
strength."



Liron Shaharabani and Moran Sarfati."Anyone who says it's too hard for her isn't gung-ho."
(Shahar Smooha )



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/355655.html

[Mo]

Don't matter to me, let them all die, the way I see it is Israel is state sponsered terrorism and they all deserve to die!

[AirZone]

Don't matter to me, let them all die, the way I see it is Israel is state sponsered terrorism and they all deserve to die!

bla bla bla bla ZIEG HAIL bla bla bla bla :cantbeli:

[ArmoredDov_D9]

There are some problems with women in combat roles.

The main ccombat roles that women were excluded from were: elite infantry, and AFVs operator (i.e. tank crew, bulldozer operators, APC crew etc).

The IDF Medical Corps explained it in a research prooving that most girls don't meet the physical requierments to those duties. Another problem is battle condition. Namely, ****ting in the field or in your tank. I can't see how a female soldier could **** and shower in field conditions were seperation between male & female is impossible (how a woman will **** inside a tank with male driver, gunner and loader?).

However, women can be combat pilots and serve as light infantry (i.e. stationed in usually quiet areas).

[Mo]

Why do you Israelis always revert someone to a Nazi when your countries actions are called into question, must be a easy wall to hide behind..........

[Bootneck]

Argh, they're crawling out of the woodwork here.

Quick question - Is it Mo as in HoMO or Mo as in Mortimer?

Never mind. Piss off troll.

:fork:

[S'13]

Why do you Israelis always revert someone to a Nazi when your countries actions are called into question, must be a easy wall to hide behind..........

Why do idiots like you always have to come in here and write BS that has nothing to do with the topic?

[AirZone]

Why do you Israelis always revert someone to a Nazi when your countries actions are called into question, must be a easy wall to hide behind..........

hmmm...uuhh... NOT !!!!

1) im sick and tired of people like you who dont have a ****ing clue whats going on in here and they get all thier info from the media
2) people like idfm203 always gives facts but you trolls still in your "israel sucks bla bla bla"
3) when you say "let them all die".. well.. hmm... where is the gas chambers when you need them aye mate ? :roll:
4) if you dont have anything smart to say or topic related....STFU !!!!

[Jack Mehoff]

What are the physical fitness standards women in IDF have to make? I'm sure it's way less than their male counterpart.

[Mo]

It's Mo as in mohawk, a warrior who fights for truth, not the propaganda the Israeli's force upon us Americans, wake up and do some research for yourself on the subject.

[AirZone]

What are the physical fitness standards women in IDF have to make? I'm sure it's way less than their male counterpart. yes.. the physical fitness standards are not the same BUT,
lately in the officer course (like the one my sister did) the women and the man are together and do exactly the same thing.. but its the "kravi" course... i mean combat, hhmm.. infantry.

[AirZone]

It's Mo as in mohawk, a warrior who fights for truth, not the propaganda the Israeli's force upon us Americans, wake up and do some research for yourself on the subject.

you mean wake up and open CNN ? rofl

[Mo]

CNN sucks, I'm talking real University level research, it's simple pull back to the 1948 border, problem over.

[Jack Mehoff]

What are the physical fitness standards women in IDF have to make? I'm sure it's way less than their male counterpart. yes.. the physical fitness standards are not the same BUT,
lately in the officer course (like the one my sister did) the women and the man are together and do exactly the same thing.. but its the "kravi" course... i mean combat, hhmm.. infantry.

Sure, women in US Army have to run 2 mile just like their male counter part. The difference is they are allow to have more time on the run. Same requirement doesn't mean equal.

[Herrmannek]

edited::means deleted

[AirZone]

CNN sucks, I'm talking real University level research, it's simple pull back to the 1948 border, problem over.

yeah i know history too mate...and believe me more than you about israel. (history fan in here)

and 1948 borders ? naaa i love how it is now.. the arbs should learn if they dont want to lose thier lands dont attack israel. ;)

[AirZone]

What are the physical fitness standards women in IDF have to make? I'm sure it's way less than their male counterpart. yes.. the physical fitness standards are not the same BUT,
lately in the officer course (like the one my sister did) the women and the man are together and do exactly the same thing.. but its the "kravi" course... i mean combat, hhmm.. infantry.

Sure, women in US Army have to run 2 mile just like their male counter part. The difference is they are allow to have more time on the run. Same requirement doesn't mean equal.

yeah.. you are right
my sister had to do less push ups and they did had more time on the run..

[He219]

Keep your arguents clean. No homicidal anti-whatever your feelings are to be expressed here. Debate the merits and cite facts or sources.

This thread is about the combat viability of women in the IDF, though it relates universally. Read the article idfm203 posted.

Also, would someone verify the nationality of these ladies? The image properties lead nowhere.

http://www.random-abstract.com/archives-gm2/remind-me.jpg

The uniforms seem dark for IDF, but I could be wrong. The service issue sandals and M16's lead me to think Lebanon - if not the IDF. Thanks!

:D

S'13: Please reduce you Avatar size.. :)

[AirZone]

Keep your arguents clean. No homicidal anti-whatever your feelings are to be expressed here. Debate the merits and cite facts or sources.

This thread is about the combat viability of women in the IDF, though it relates universally. Read the article idfm203 posted.

Also, would someone verify the nationality of these ladies? The image properties lead nowhere.

http://www.random-abstract.com/archives-gm2/remind-me.jpg

The uniforms seem dark for IDF, but I could be wrong. The service issue sandals and M16's lead me to think Lebanon - if not the IDF. Thanks!

:D they are kosher allright... GOD i love our women ;)

you can see its IDF uniforms becuase of the insigns...

[Bootneck]

You must be a warrior and a scholar. You're posts on your first day here certainly prove it:

Mo wrote:

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:40 pm
France sucks, plain and simple

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:47 pm
ya know what, f#$% Iraq, we should pull out and nuke the whole middle east

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:51 pm
Don't matter to me, let them all die, the way I see it is Israel is state sponsered terrorism and they all deserve to die!




It's Mo as in mohawk, a warrior who fights for truth, not the propaganda the Israeli's force upon us Americans, wake up and do some research for yourself on the subject.

[AirZone]

You must be a warrior and a scholar. You're posts on your first day here certainly prove it:

Mo wrote:

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:40 pm
France sucks, plain and simple

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:47 pm
ya know what, f#$% Iraq, we should pull out and nuke the whole middle east

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:51 pm
Don't matter to me, let them all die, the way I see it is Israel is state sponsered terrorism and they all deserve to die!




It's Mo as in mohawk, a warrior who fights for truth, not the propaganda the Israeli's force upon us Americans, wake up and do some research for yourself on the subject.

Bootneck 1 Mo 0

rofl

[Mo]

I will admit, they are hot, but if Israel's policy is to have them do service time, well then death comes with the territory, they seem pretty gung ho to me from that article....

[Mo]

Wow bootneck, you can put two and two together, I'm a warrior as well as have a Master's degree in Engineering

[ArmoredDov_D9]

To everybody, Please ingnore Moe. Is obiouvsly some really lifeless bored assholes. He doesn't worth a **** for you to reply.

Please ignore him and stay focused on the topic.
The moderators will take care of him.

[Mo]

I realize I'm off topic, I'll just say one more thing and leave it alone, it's funny how all the Israel's are so quick to rebute and then ignore the others opinion, no wonder you still have problems with the Palestinians. All I have to say is I'm one American who isn't buying your bs anymore, but i understand that you're afraid of the truth, when every American realizes we've been fooled by you, the $36 billion we give you per year will dissappear, I haven't forgot the USS Liberty!!!!!!

[AirZone]

I realize I'm off topic, I'll just say one more thing and leave it alone, it's funny how all the Israel's are so quick to rebute and then ignore the others opinion, no wonder you still have problems with the Palestinians. All I have to say is I'm one American who isn't buying your bs anymore, but i understand that you're afraid of the truth, when every American realizes we've been fooled by you, the $36 billion we give you per year will dissappear, I haven't forgot the USS Liberty!!!!!!

Good for you... *yawn*

rofl
you are some thing.. a very bored person..

btw its 3billion...
so stop with the bull****

and about liberty **** happens
not to montion stuff like these happens all the time in WAR


jerk.. :roll:

[S'13]

I realize I'm off topic, I'll just say one more thing and leave it alone, it's funny how all the Israel's are so quick to rebute and then ignore the others opinion, no wonder you still have problems with the Palestinians. All I have to say is I'm one American who isn't buying your bs anymore, but i understand that you're afraid of the truth, when every American realizes we've been fooled by you, the $36 billion we give you per year will dissappear, I haven't forgot the USS Liberty

You also forgot to mention that Israel is responsible for 9/11 and the the 'Elders of Zion' of course. :roll:

...אין שכל אין דאגות rofl

[Mo]

what, how did you make that leap of intellect, elders of zion, please......all you've done is confirm what i said, you will not listen to others. You just change the subject, next will be another Nazi comment directed towards me. Boring, old and not true, just keep hiding from the truth.....

[AirZone]

what, how did you make that leap of intellect, elders of zion, please......all you've done is confirm what i said, you will not listen to others. You just change the subject, next will be another Nazi comment directed towards me. Boring, old and not true, just keep hiding from the truth.....
and what is the truth ohhhhh mighty one ?

דוגרי הבן אדם הזה זיין שכל rofl

[Mo]

I'm wondering what the truth is? Maybe you could help, 1) who has continually taken over land at gunpoint from the other, Israel or the Palestinians, 2) who originated the suicide bomb, israeli's prior to 1949 or Palestinians post 1949, 3) who has continually disregarded UN resolutions, Israeli's or Palestinians, want me to go on.......by the way you are correct, it's 3 billion not 36, thanks for the correction.

[Mo]

Hey airhead, oh sorry it's airzone, chinga tu madre y churpa mi pica grande rofl

[AirZone]

I'm wondering what the truth is? Maybe you could help, 1) who has continually taken over land at gunpoint from the other, Israel or the Palestinians, 2) who originated the suicide bomb, israeli's prior to 1949 or Palestinians post 1949, 3) who has continually disregarded UN resolutions, Israeli's or Palestinians, want me to go on.......by the way you are correct, it's 3 billion not 36, thanks for the correction.

1) the palestinians - the first zionists who came to erez israel bought the land from the arbs.. but guess who attacked them all the time ?
and about 1948 - next time the arbs should not leave their homes when their leaders say so.

2) israel...suicide bomb ? rofl do you mean king david ?
i mean.. give me a date, place, and who did it and then we will talk about it. (btw the first suicide bombing started few years ago)
3) UN.. AH ! like UN is a god or some thing ? did USA does what UN tells them to do ? **** UN, they are ridiclous.. and btw the arb nations did !
only lately israel is smart enough not to listen to UN like rest of the world does.

and sure.. go on
as long as you give me proofs, dates and so on... i have time :)

and m000000
אמרו לך שאתה ערבוש קטן ומסריח ? :hug:

[S'13]

I'm wondering what the truth is? Maybe you could help, 1) who has continually taken over land at gunpoint from the other, Israel or the Palestinians, 2) who originated the suicide bomb, israeli's prior to 1949 or Palestinians post 1949, 3) who has continually disregarded UN resolutions, Israeli's or Palestinians, want me to go on.......by the way you are correct, it's 3 billion not 36, thanks for the correction.

You better get your facts straight ( the BS you just tried to sell everyone about the U.S aide to Israel is one fine example).


what, how did you make that leap of intellect, elders of zion, please......all you've done is confirm what i said, you will not listen to others. You just change the subject, next will be another Nazi comment directed towards me. Boring, old and not true, just keep hiding from the truth.....

Well you have just confirmed your an arrogant pice of s*it who is trying to spread blood libels all over the place...

[ArmoredDov_D9]

I'm wondering what the truth is? Maybe you could help, 1) who has continually taken over land at gunpoint from the other, Israel or the Palestinians, 2) who originated the suicide bomb, israeli's prior to 1949 or Palestinians post 1949, 3) who has continually disregarded UN resolutions, Israeli's or Palestinians, want me to go on.......by the way you are correct, it's 3 billion not 36, thanks for the correction.

1. Palestinians, but they were lousy in that. Not that it prevented them to keep up trying.

2. The Lebanese, at about 1982.

3. The Palestinians. They have rejected the 1947 partition plan (and got screwed for the wickedness and dumbness) and they still don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

4. You've realy killed a good debate by your anti-Israel bashing. :bash:

[Guttorm]

I realize I'm off topic, I'll just say one more thing and leave it alone, it's funny how all the Israel's are so quick to rebute and then ignore the others opinion,

Much like the current american government... :lol:

[redhawk_six]

Wow bootneck, you can put two and two together, I'm a warrior as well as have a Master's degree in Engineering

Yeah, because we all know that a Master's degree in Engineering completely qualifies you as an expert in history and politics. [/sarcasm] :roll:

As for women in the IDF or any military for that matter, I think there should be complete equality. If a woman wants to fight on the front lines, then she should have the opertuinity, provided she's qualified, same goes for any branch of the military, including special forces.

[IDFM203]

In the vain hope to get back to the subject matter I will just repost the article that I had posted in the beggining.



Girlillas' ready for action

By Dea Hadar

Their gear is customized from top to toe, they are gung-ho and they fantasize about going into the casbah in Nablus. The female fighters of Caracal are unmoved by a new army study that casts doubts on their physical abilities

"I'm the driver," says Livnat Aharoni, a Caracal
(light infantry company) fighter, as she sat in
the Jeep next to a male buddy from her company,
Saguy Wasserman. The two looked out over the
spectacular, ruddy, silent hills of Jordan at
sunset last Thursday, refusing to allow the
pastoral view to soothe the fighting spirit that
burns within them.




"We're waiting for something
to happen. We are gung-ho,
totally gung-ho. I wish a
gang of terrorists would
hurry up and break through
the fence. Just kidding. But
we're dying for a bit of
action," Aharoni adds.

The company, in which

two-thirds of the soldiers are female, has been
stationed at the Yotvata post for two months.
It has had beginner's "luck" so far: "For eight
years there hasn't been a catch here, and then
the first week we were here we caught someone.
It was like heaven, really," recalls Aharoni,
drinking thirstily from a bag of chocolate
milk. "If a terrorist appears in front of me
now, there's no doubt what I'll do to him. I'll
get up and shoot and attack him. Because I love
my country and I want to do something for it,
and the fact that I'm a girl doesn't mean that
I need to sit in an office and file things."

"All in all, it's nice here. A bit too quiet. Me
and Livnat, we're a winning team. We can do a
lot more than [what we are doing now in] this
quiet. In general, we're a bit fed up here,"
admits Wasserman, bored and licking a colorful
ice cream on a stick.

There was no ****** tension evident in the air.
There was a strong soldierly solidarity between
the two. Among the trainees of March, 2003,
there is only one couple, who went together to
a squad commanders' course three weeks ago.
Wasserman says that before he enlisted, he had
his heart set on a combat posting.

"The soldiers from the companies that served in
the territories laughed at us when we were in
boot camp. They said that Caracal is for homos
and lesbians. They called us pussies, but we
didn't take any notice and we are proving
ourselves. For example, on patrol yesterday,
Jordanians came and talked to us. There were
all kinds of strange movements. It was
interesting," he explains.

Strange movements? "Apparently in the end it was
all kinds of animals," he said disappointedly.

The quiet along the borders with Jordan and
Egypt leaves time for dreaming. Between the
endless snacks and the hot pursuit of foxes and
rabbits, the female fighters fantasize about
going into the casbah in Nablus. "Maybe they'll
transfer us further north than the Jericho
sector," Aharoni says.

Do you feel like serving there?

Aharoni: "Sure."

What about Jenin?

"Jenin? I'd love to!"

Too tough?

The nickname "girlillas" that the female
fighters of Caracal (literally, a species of
wildcat) have been given amuses them. The fact
that they serve for two-and-a-half years (women
recruited since July of this year will serve
for three, and be in the reserves until age 45)
does not bother them. They are, however, very
annoyed by statements like the one made by
Housing and Construction Minister Effie Eitam
(National Religious Party), who last week after
the killing of two female soldiers at Netzarim
said that the training and limited abilities of
female soldiers do not enable them to take part
in combat, and called for their removal from
combat posts.

The publication of the findings of a new study
done by the Israel Defense Forces Medical
Corps, at the initiative of the commander of
the ground forces, that determined that the
physical demands posed by most combat tasks in
the army are too tough for female soldiers, is
also a sensitive issue for them. They
scornfully dismiss the notion that they are
unable to go on long marches, find it hard to
lift tank shells, are too short, are too weak
and do not eat enough, as well, of course, as
the conclusions of that study: the objection to
the possibility that in the future, girls will
be able to be integrated into additional roles
in the IDF.

In the language of the study, women have "a very
low likelihood of surviving" in a role such as
infantry fighter, operator of heavy machinery
in the Engineering Corps, tank crew member or
fighter in a commando or special force.

"It's the clearest thing in the world to me that
girls can be fighters. I don't see myself doing
anything else. It really annoys me that people
say things and don't come and see what we're
doing here, first hand," says Liron
Shaharabani, 20, a squad commander from Kiryat
Ono. Her appearance is customized from head to
toe: a dog-tag cover with the unit's emblem,
linked rifle magazines and, of course, a short
version of the M16.

"We're holding this line the way it's supposed
to be done. Even if it's a tiny bit harder for
me as a girl," says Shaharabani, "that doesn't
mean I can't do it. I grew up in this company
and I really believe in it. It annoys me that
people look down on this sector. I'm not
dissing anything, but we really are capable of
more. Our aspiration is to get to the seam line
and with time maybe to go inside. I'm saying to
the IDF: Open the door and anyone who succeeds
in going in, why not let her?"

Shaharabani's confidence derives from her
position as squad commander. According to her,
she has never encountered any questioning of
her authority on the part of the boys, who are
a minority in the squad. "They are enlisted
along with the girls, and we teach them
everything. In the beginning it's hard for
them, but later on they integrate well. All of
us here are comrades in arms. There's no
difference."

"It seems disgusting to me that they want to
close combat roles to girls," says Liron Mazor
from Bat Yam angrily. "Why doesn't the state
believe in the ability of girls? I'm in the
field every day. So it's true that girls have
certain physical problems, but all of them are
capable. It all depends on the scale of effort
and on fitness. In fact, it's all in the mind.
Anyone who says it's too hard for her isn't
gung-ho. The fitness comes with the commitment.
The commanders don't even know how committed I
am. Only my girlfriends know," she says.

"What a sweetie," comments Shaharabani in
response. "I know exactly how gung-ho she is."
(It should be noted that the Hebrew term for
gung-ho is literally "poisoned")

Committed to women

In the IDF they fear that statements and
studies that cast doubt on the functioning of
women in combat positions will harm the high
motivation evidenced by the new fighting women,
and the desire of girls who are now in the
recruiting process to assume those positions.
An attempt to ask the IDF chief of staff's
adviser on women's issues, Brigadier General
Devora Hassid, about the findings of the study
was interrupted by a representative of the IDF
Spokesman's Office, who said: "We are not
interested in commenting on the study."

According to Hassid, who took up the post two
months ago: "The IDF is committed in terms of
values, legally and morally, to letting women
integrate into combat positions. On this issue
the policy has not changed. We intend to
continue to open new roles to women and the
position of the chief of staff is to expand and
establish the roles in which women will be
integrated into combat units. Today, about 83
percent of the positions in the IDF are open to
women. Before the IDF opens a combat position
that requires physical fitness, studies are
undertaken to determine that it is possible to
integrate both boys and girls without
endangering their health. The proportion of
women serving in combat roles will increase and
the proportion of administrative workers will
decline."

At the present time, are there young women
serving in combat roles in which the physical
requirements are too stringent for them?

Hassid: "I cannot give you an answer to that
question."

Today, three years after it was decided to amend
the law to allow for the recruitment of girls
into combat roles, following the petition
submitted by Alice Miller (who wanted to join
the pilots' course), about 450 young women are
serving as fighters in the ground forces. Girls
operate MLRS launchers in the artillery corps,
serve as atomic, biological and chemical
decontaminators, and are expected to join the
dog-handlers unit in the near future. For
fighting women, special lightweight boots have
been designed, as well as a light flak jacket
suited to a woman's body structure, smaller
helmets and other equipment tailored to their
size.

It has been more than two years since the
establishment of the co-ed Caracal companies,
the flagship of female fighters in the ground
forces. The soldiers' trajectory in the unit
begins with a four-month boot camp, which is
followed by brief training maneuvers and
nonstop routine security activity until their
stint is up. The three companies that have been
established, in which the proportion of women
is about two-thirds, are considered infantry
units of the second rank. The level of fitness
and combat abilities expected of the fighters
is lower than in the Nahal brigades, the
Paratroops, Golani and Givati. In December,
2004, a Caracal unit is expected to become a
battalion and the possibility that a female
battalion commander might be appointed is a
source of pride among the female soldiers.

"This is a process that is ripe. Women have gone
the combat route, some of them have become
officers, there is a company commander and
there are candidates for the appointment. If a
woman is appointed battalion commander, the
message will be that the sky is the limit,"
says Brigadier General Hassid.

A savings for the army

The head of the regular manpower division at
army headquarters, Colonel Nissim Barda, says
the integration of female soldiers in routine
security operations along the Jordanian and
Egyptian borders translates into savings in
reserve units and standing army combat units,
which are then freed for service in the
territories. According to him, "This
contributes directly to the release of
resources for operational missions. Instead of
them we would have had to maintain an entire
battalion of male fighters. We don't have the
luxury of not realizing the incredible
potential there is in female soldiers. Their
functioning is excellent."

Today, he adds, "we know that the stress that
can be placed on a female soldier's muscle is
lower than the stress that can be placed on a
man's muscle. But the results of the study are
still under discussion. In all the fields we
have opened, there are no restrictions on
girls, and no additional field will be opened
that could cause damage to women. We are not
taking any risk with the health of female
soldiers only in order to be nice."

The women who call themselves Caracals, a kind
of desert predator, spend the free hours
between patrols nurturing their rampant esprit
de corps. The unit's emblem of bloodthirsty
felines decorates nearly every flag, shirt or
dog-tag cover, but along the peace borders
there isn't much to prey on, apart from snacks
that prove consolation on the endless patrols.


The reactions on the street, when they go home
once every two-and-a-half weeks, contribute to
their high morale. "People stop me and say,
`Wow! You have red [combat] boots.' Girls stop
us and ask how they too can get to Caracal,"
says Shaharabani.

Moran Sarfati, now a Hummer driver in Caracal,
served as an office worker in the IDF until she
asked to go to the tiny post in the south.

"I wanted to be a fighter. It looks to me like
the only job for girls in which it is possible
to contribute," says Sarfati, who expresses the
wish to go to the Gaza Strip - "with pleasure."
In the meantime, she is encouraged by the two
infiltrators she helped catch during her first
week on the line. "It was really fun that it
happened just when I arrived. A real
experience."

What did you do to them after you caught them?

Sarfati: "I gave them something to drink."

"What girls," jokes one of the other girls in
the company.

"I know that they call this a peaceful border,
but even along boring borders things happen,"
says Mazor.

Do other girls tell you you're a sucker?

Mazor: "Yes, but they're just jealous. They go
home every day and they don't even know what
their role is. I've chosen this life," says
Mazor, though she admits that she feels like a
second-class fighter. "I'm not a fighter like
some of the boys, but this is as much of a
fighter as I can be at the moment."

"At first I didn't want to come here all that
much, but my father is in the career army so I
was taught to be gung-ho at home. Now I'm glad.
I'm here to prove that girls can do
everything," says Nitzan Keren, who was on
kitchen duty that day. In boot camp, she says,
it was harder. "I like the territories, the
action. My mother said it was too dangerous, so
I told her that it didn't depend on her. I
didn't come here to sit with my legs crossed.
Like, am I a fighter or am I not?" she asks
rhetorically, as she follows the orders of
Manny the cook.

What's it like to be in a kitchen with
Caracals?

Manny: "Nothing special. I mean, it's just a
woman.

Later, when no Caracal is in earshot, he says
that they don't shower often enough. "Sometimes
I send them to take a shower. They sweat,
they're not well-groomed. Sometimes they come
crying to me that they've gained weight. All
told - girls. But a woman in a combat unit
loses some of her femininity. They're together
too much. They become like men: They see a girl
in civvies and they say, `Wow, that one's a
looker.' But I really admire what they're doing
here. They are contributing a lot, and they
strengthen the female ***. To tell you the
truth, sometimes I'm a little shocked by their
strength."



Liron Shaharabani and Moran Sarfati."Anyone who says it's too hard for her isn't gung-ho."
(Shahar Smooha )


[/quote]

[Seraphim]

Didnt know if I should post here or in the general section...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=16&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_women_in_combat


By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israelis are questioning the use of women in combat after the killings of two female sergeants by Palestinians and a study suggesting women are too weak for deployment.


The debate comes at a critical time as the military is stretched thin by three years of fighting against the Palestinians and the government tries to fill the gaps by calling up reserves. More women in combat could ease the burden.


It also strikes at the heart of Israeli society, since army service is compulsory for nearly all able 18-year-olds, and the military is often a launching pad for careers.


Concern over deployment of women was fueled by the Oct. 24 ambush of sergeants Sarit Shneor-Senior and Adi Osman at a remote army outpost that guards the Jewish settlement of Netzarim in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites).


One of the attackers walked to the soldiers' sleeping quarters, opened the door to one of the trailers and killed Osman, 19, in her sleep. A few moments later, Shneor-Senior, 20, opened the door to her trailer and was killed by the attacker. A male soldier also was killed.

Some caution against pushing women too far in the army.


Initial findings of the study commissioned by the commander of ground forces found, for instance, that most women are not able to lift the minimum amount required of combat soldiers, 110 pounds. It also said most women could not complete military treks, which typically involve carrying heavy gear, of more than 12 miles. Male soldiers can be required to march more than twice that distance.


The study has not yet been debated in the upper echelons of the army, but could prevent the eventual entrance of women into elite commando units.


Housing Minister Effie Eitam, a former general, called for female soldiers to be removed from conflict areas. "The ability of women to participate in intense combat ... is more limited," Eitam told the Yediot Ahronot newspaper.


Others warned that if women are kept out of combat, they will never achieve equality in the military, nor later in life, since the service shapes their motivation and expectations for future careers.


Recent call-ups of reserve units wouldn't have been necessary if women were used to their full potential, said Brig. Gen. Yehudit Ben-Notan, a former commander in the women's corps.


"I think a small nation needs to make use of everyone and to look at them not according to their ***, but according to the army's needs, and their talents," Ben-Notan told Israel Radio.


A few countries allow women into some combat roles, including Germany, Canada, Denmark and Norway. In the U.S. military, women can serve on combat ships but are not allowed on submarines and are barred from serving in units whose main purpose is ground combat.


Today, Israeli women are the only ones in the world required to serve in their country's army.


Even before Israel's creation in 1948, women fought in militias to defend Jewish communities. They were recruited alongside men when the army was formed. In the early years, women were largely given jobs as secretaries and clerks in the army. The door to combat units was opened by Supreme Court rulings in 1995 and 2000, though most elite units remain off-limits.


Since 1995, when a young woman petitioned the high court to be admitted to pilot training, five women have graduated from flight school and are serving as pilots or navigators. Women also guard Israel's borders in light infantry positions — which can involve ground combat — and operate long-range rocket launchers. Recently a woman was appointed commander on a missile cruiser.


Sgt. Sima Adiv, a commander of a rocket launcher unit in the West Bank, said the public will have to get used to the possibility of women fighters being killed or taken as prisoners of war, like American women soldiers were in Iraq (news - web sites) earlier this year.





"My parents thought the chances I would go into combat were very small," the slight, serious 20-year-old said as she led three male soldiers in a foot patrol around her army base.

"Society will just have to get used to the idea of women in combat."

[perdurabo]

let's back to women in war and IDF chicks (i don't feel that Israeli gov. is doing good thing in PA but i like ppl and Jew women are great [Nataly Portman woot ]-Polish one are better :P)
In first well i know meany girls that train martial arts and fight they always calm and so hmm great :) but i would feel unconfortable fighting arm to arm with woman and aginst one it would be horrible for me i can't hit one i feel so bad if i must say to girl something bad (i'm weak i know :) ) Yes they should be traind to know how to react in case of war rape etc. ... :)
as for IDF chiks hey girls that train always look good in army you have to train and in Israel woman have 2years of military :) so they have to train :) so... :P
In Poland military service for woman isnt necesery so moust of good loking chicks is outside army :D and only few is in :(

[ArmoredDov_D9]

There are some problems with women in combat roles.

The main ccombat roles that women were excluded from were: elite infantry, and armour fighting vehicles operators (i.e. tank crew, bulldozer operators, APC crew etc).

The IDF Medical Corps explained it in a research prooving that most girls don't meet the physical requierments to those duties. Another problem is battle conditions. Namely, ****ting in the field or in your tank. I can't see how a female soldier could **** and shower in field conditions were seperation between male & female is impossible (how a woman will **** inside a tank with male driver, gunner and loader?).

However, women can be combat pilots and serve as light infantry (i.e. stationed in usually quiet areas).

[Herrmannek]

I've heard that Jewish military chicks weren't taking prisoners. Is that true?

[IDFM203]

I will just add this from soemthing I posted a while back.............

"One of the major problems with women in combat infantry roles that a lot of you are missing is what the Israeli army found out years ago and as such does not really have women in major combat infantry roles.

The problem they found was that man become too emotionally paralysed to any major decision that needed to be made when women were involved. For example, when they would be charging in battle and a woman would get injured, instead of charging full steam most would stop and tend to the women, and not just the medic.

or other types of important battlefield decisions that are quite dangerous and perhaps as a result a few will be killed, would not be made due to the emotional attachment to the women, and as a result, losing the major objectives of that mission.

When I say emotional attachment I am not talking about individual soldiers sleeping with her and thus becoming emotional involved, no I am talking about a whole unit where there is no such behaviour at all, but yet in battle, the man cant make the necessary and tough decisions that are needed to be made do due to the inherent emotional attachment to women that weakens the tough decision making

( I know I haven’t explained this great, but most of you that have served in combat units in the military should have a better understanding of what I am saying here.)"

[Jack Mehoff]

There are some problems with women in combat roles.

The IDF Medical Corps explained it in a research prooving that most girls don't meet the physical requierments to those duties. Another problem is battle conditions. Namely, ****ting in the field or in your tank. I can't see how a female soldier could **** and shower in field conditions were seperation between male & female is impossible (how a woman will **** inside a tank with male driver, gunner and loader?).



I thought Israel women are not shy when it come to taking a poop and shower in front of men p-)

[IDFM203]

I am just cruious. what roles do women have in the U.S. military??

I mean are there real life GI janes????

shalom.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

There are some problems with women in combat roles.

The IDF Medical Corps explained it in a research prooving that most girls don't meet the physical requierments to those duties. Another problem is battle conditions. Namely, ****ting in the field or in your tank. I can't see how a female soldier could **** and shower in field conditions were seperation between male & female is impossible (how a woman will **** inside a tank with male driver, gunner and loader?).



I thought Israel women are not shy when it come to taking a poop and shower in front of men p-)

Israeli women are not sluts.

[UoUo]

In bat - yam they are. rofl rofl

[IDFM203]

There are some problems with women in combat roles.

The IDF Medical Corps explained it in a research prooving that most girls don't meet the physical requierments to those duties. Another problem is battle conditions. Namely, ****ting in the field or in your tank. I can't see how a female soldier could **** and shower in field conditions were seperation between male & female is impossible (how a woman will **** inside a tank with male driver, gunner and loader?).



I thought Israel women are not shy when it come to taking a poop and shower in front of men p-)wow that's funny for I heard that exact thing about the women in the U.S. military...

is that true?!? p-)

[Herrmannek]

http://www.tam.co.il/29_3_2002/images/almo_soldier_woman.jpg
http://217.207.43.10/countries/Pics/isr07.jpg
http://www.blessisrael.com/trumpet/images/Book%20Table.JPG

[Jack Mehoff]

I am just cruious. what roles do women have in the U.S. military??

I mean are there real life GI janes????

shalom.

Women are forbidden to serve in these roles. www.goarmy.com have better details.

Army-infantry, tankers, special operation, field artillery, combat engineer, etc. In addition, they are not allow to serve in combat armed battalion level.

Marine Corp-same as above

Navy-submarine, special operation

Air Force-special operation

[IDFM203]

I am just cruious. what roles do women have in the U.S. military??

I mean are there real life GI janes????

shalom.

Women are forbidden to serve in these roles. www.goarmy.com have better details.

Army-infantry, tankers, special operation, field artillery, combat engineer, etc. In addition, they are not allow to serve in combat armed battalion level.

Marine Corp-same as above

Navy-submarine, special operation

Air Force-special operationthat's basically the same with israel

only recently did the idf create a mixed unit but that was in a second tear infantry unit. Those seacond tear units are “weak” (in the sense of combat importance) infantry ones and are put in very quite areas.

Oh so GI Jane was fictional ;) ??

Shalom :D

[ShotOver]

G'day fellas,

G.I Jane was crap :|

2 Questions:

What part of the uniform and field equipment is changed for the females? Is it basic stuff, such as lighter and less of it..

And -

The D9, is it classed as a I.F.V or a heavy machine just for the engineers.

Shalom woot
(I hope anyone can say this word, not just jewish, me likes sayin it)

[IDFM203]

G'day fellas, good day to you as well……



G.I Jane was crap :| there were some good scenes in there though




What part of the uniform and field equipment is changed for the females? Is it basic stuff, such as lighter and less of it.. taken from the article that I posted before in this thread…

"For
fighting women, special lightweight boots have
been designed, as well as a light flak jacket
suited to a woman's body structure, smaller
helmets and other equipment tailored to their
size”



Shalom woot
(I hope anyone can say this word, not just jewish, me likes sayin it) and I like hearing it especially from non jews…

Of course you can say it, any word of peace is a positive encouragement to be said and believed by all.

Shalom :D

[ShotOver]

haha, cheers for the fast reply.

Australian Armed forces don't allow women in direct combats rolls.. infantry, SF, Artillery..etc.

Some parts in G.I jane were alrite, but excuse my ignorance but it was a total feminest movie... and i hate that crap.


Shalom :hug:

[IDFM203]

haha, cheers for the fast reply. hehe, yeah now’s my turn to say that.


Australian Armed forces don't allow women in direct combats rolls.. infantry, SF, Artillery..etc. well the same for the IDF.

Like I said before, the idf just recently allowed women to enter into a specific unit in infantry which is considered second tear unit and which is for the most part not in direct combat.




Some parts in G.I jane were alrite, but excuse my ignorance but it was a total feminest movie... and i hate that crap.
Yep I agree a hundred percent here.

Though I liked the grenade launcher scenes as I am sure you can figure out as to why (hint: read check my avator and screen name)




Shalom: hug: shalom :hug:

Although I must ask?!? Is this the same PT as I saw before a month ago?? :roll:

[ShotOver]

Yeah, you must of missed the topic where i posted my apolagy and my reasons for those comments i used to make.

No hard feelings right?

[IDFM203]

Yeah, you must of missed the topic yeah I must have....next time PM please ;) :D


where i posted my apolagy and my reasons for those comments i used to make. better late then never ;) hehe hey I apoligize for my responses so no worries there mate :D


No hard feelings right? nope, I never had any :D

shalom :D :hug: