Israel outraged as EU poll names it a threat to peace

[budanski]

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1076084,00.html)

Israel has been described as the top threat to world peace, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, by an unpublished European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans, sparking an international row.

The survey, conducted in October, of 500 people from each of the EU's member nations included a list of 15 countries with the question, 'tell me if in your opinion it presents or not a threat to peace in the world'. Israel was reportedly picked by 59 per cent of those interviewed.

The leaking of the results of the poll to El Pais and the International Herald Tribune has sparked a bitter row, with a major Jewish human rights and lobbying group, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, demanding that the EU be excluded from the Israel-Palestinian peace process and accusing Europe of suffering the worst outbreak of 'anti-semitism' since World War Two.

The results appear to be a mark of the widespread disapproval in Europe of the tactics employed by the government of Ariel Sharon during the present intifada.

Israeli Ministers and spokesman have also been at pains recently to insist that a definition of modern 'anti-semitism' should include criticism of the way the state of Israel chooses to protect itself, defining that criticism as an overt attack on Israel's survival.

Members of the Sharon government have bridled at the efforts of Tony Blair and UK officials to try to mediate between the two sides. At one stage journalists were briefed that Israel regarded the Foreign Office as having an 'Arabist' bias.

Reacting to the poll, the Simon Wies enthal Centre, which claims 400,000 members in the US alone, has begun ordering a petition to condemn the European Commission and demand the EU no longer be represented in the so-called Quartet group trying to mediate an end to violence between Israel and Palestine.

The poll also comes against a background of an increase in anti-semitic attacks in Europe in the past year, although the evidence in countries such as France suggests that many are being committed by young Islamists.

'This poll is an indication that Europeans have bought in, "hook, line and sinker", to the vilification and demonisation campaign directed against the state of Israel and her supporters by European leaders and media,' said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Wiesenthal Centre's founder.

'This shocking result that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace, bigger than North Korea and Iran, defies logic and is a racist flight of fantasy that only shows that anti-semitism is deeply embedded within European society, more then at any other period since the end of the war,' he added.

History repeating itself...

[Mortimer]

well someone had to say it...

and "modern 'anti-semitism' " is their excuse for everything, that and "hamas shot the ambulance and then said it was us!"

They need to be held accountable for the conflict over there.

[Seoulstriker]

well someone had to say it...

you're right. europe proved once again that it is 100% against israel. :bash:

[Mortimer]

well someone had to say it...

you're right. europe proved once again that it is 100% against israel. :bash:

ehh wrong

they are not against Israel, they are against the violence there and are blaming Israel(and rightly so) for the continuation of violence.

[Mortimer]

However i think the US is the greatest threat to world peace.

[IDFM203]

Well this idiocy from these supposed "enlightened Europeans' just reinforces to me why we need to have a strong idf and why Israel is so important to the security of the Jewish people.

Shalom :D

(I now await the usual verbal diatribe about Israel that’s expected to follow…….) :| :|

[Seoulstriker]

well someone had to say it...

you're right. europe proved once again that it is 100% against israel. :bash:

ehh wrong

they are not against Israel, they are against the violence there and are blaming Israel(and rightly so) for the continuation of violence.

you're right. israel should just lay down its arms and grab its ankles. :roll: :bash:

[budanski]

However i think the US is the greatest threat to world peace.

Spoken like a true liberal

[Seoulstriker]

However i think the US is the greatest threat to world peace.

the greatest threat to world peace is terrorism and europe and dictatorships. :bash:

[Mortimer]

and i'm not a liberal....in Australia liberals are right wing. I'm not in America so don't put me into that category.

call me a Greeny if anything

[Seoulstriker]

and i'm not a liberal....in Australia liberals are right wing. I'm not in America so don't put me into that category.

call me a Greeny if anything

spoken like a true liberal (as heard in the US).

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well somehow this doesnt suprise me at all. Quite frankly im beyond sick of hearing all the bull**** from Israel and Palestine..its all bull**** talk and finger pointing, bombings, bulldozing's repeat and x's 1000 and you get the situation in Israel and Palestine.
I'm pretty sure others feel the same way. There will be no peace in the world until these sides have totally eradicated each other from the face of the planet.

[IDFM203]

Well somehow this doesnt suprise me at all. Quite frankly im beyond sick of hearing all the bull**** from Israel and Palestine..its all bull**** talk and finger pointing, bombings, bulldozing's repeat and x's 1000 and you get the situation in Israel and Palestine.
I'm pretty sure others feel the same way. There will be no peace in the world until these sides have totally eradicated each other from the face of the planet.I am sick of it too.

But israelis don’t have your luxury of sitting in Canada and just saying ahh their both wrong so f*ck em all.

Israelis also don’t have your luxury of being lazy and intellectually weak to the point of where you cant decifer up whose morally correct and whose morally wrong so you resort to simplicities for its more easy on you to function.

Listen no ones perfect, but to simply say that they are both wrong is about as naive as one can get.

If I had your simplistic way of looking at things I would wish for most of the world to eradicate itself already for they are all wrong now and at certain points in their conflicts and histories?!?

Yes canuck, kill them all so you can go back to watching your Canadian air force or cbc newsworld about the more peaceful happenings that go on in your parliament then more about the Israeli Arab one.

Shalom eh? :D

[EvanL]

Well somehow this doesnt suprise me at all. Quite frankly im beyond sick of hearing all the bull**** from Israel and Palestine..its all bull**** talk and finger pointing, bombings, bulldozing's repeat and x's 1000 and you get the situation in Israel and Palestine.
I'm pretty sure others feel the same way. There will be no peace in the world until these sides have totally eradicated each other from the face of the planet.I am sick of it too.

But israelis don’t have your luxury of sitting in Canada and just saying ahh their both wrong so f*ck em all.

Israelis also don’t have your luxury of being lazy and intellectually weak to the point of where you cant decifer up whose morally correct and whose morally wrong so you resort to simplicities for its more easy on you to function.

Listen no ones perfect, but to simply say that they are both wrong is about as naive as one can get.

If I had your simplistic way of looking at things I would wish for most of the world to eradicate itself already for they are all wrong now and at certain points in their conflicts and histories?!?

Yes canuck, kill them all so you can go back to watching your Canadian air force or cbc newsworld about the more peaceful happenings that go on in your parliament then more about the Israeli Arab one.

Shalom eh? :D

IDFM once again you have misunderstood what he was trying to say. He wasnt saying to kill them all. YOu just wanted to hear that so you can continue the arguements that you enjoy so much. He was only saying that each side is responsible for some of what is going on. More so the palestinians, but Israel isnt 100% co-operating for the effort. That was all that he was trying to say.
Shalom makor.

[Haiw]

threat to peace, yes...threat to world peace...no..
besides, both sides are a threat of peace in israel/palestina

anyway, saying the US is the biggest threat to peace can't be really argued against, i mean...no mather the reasons or motivations, they DID start two wars in the last 2 years...

[Vance]

anyway, saying the US is the biggest threat to peace can't be really argued against, i mean...no mather the reasons or motivations, they DID start two wars in the last 2 years...
Well, when you say it like that, yeah. So why not add Britain and Australia in there as well, since they were our two main allies....

[Haiw]

Well, when you say it like that, yeah. So why not add Britain and Australia in there as well, since they were our two main allies....
cus they didnt start the fight at the playground, they just joined in when they saw their best buddy getting into a fight! ;)

[Vance]

Well, when you say it like that, yeah. So why not add Britain and Australia in there as well, since they were our two main allies....
cus they didnt start the fight at the playground, they just joined in when they saw their best buddy getting into a fight! ;)
And notice how they were the other two that were majorly affected by terror attacks in the past two years... ;)

[jdbjdb]

wasn't it Palestinian militants who shot and killed lil Mohammed Aldura?
the evidence suggest that it was. but since it was a palestinian boy shot and killed Israel was blamed for it.

[Ratamacue]

anyway, saying the US is the biggest threat to peace can't be really argued against, i mean...no mather the reasons or motivations, they DID start two wars in the last 2 years...

No. One war was started by the US, the other was started by Al-Qaeda.

[Vance]

anyway, saying the US is the biggest threat to peace can't be really argued against, i mean...no mather the reasons or motivations, they DID start two wars in the last 2 years...

No. One war was started by the US, the other was started by Al-Qaeda.
Bingo, forgot about that. :cantbeli:

[budanski]

anyway, saying the US is the biggest threat to peace can't be really argued against, i mean...no mather the reasons or motivations, they DID start two wars in the last 2 years...

What do you expect from a continent that has murdered millions of Jews?

[IDFM203]

IDFM once again you have misunderstood what he was trying to say. well I don’t believe I did.

Though I would be more then happy if I misunderstood him…..



He wasnt saying to kill them all. well saying “There will be no peace in the world until these sides have totally eradicated each other from the face of the planet” sure sounds like that to me. Basically he is saying that both are wrong so let the Jewish nation as well as the Palestinians just kill themselves so there will be peace.

So thats a, saying in effect that both are equally wrong.
B, agreeing with the idiocy of the European poll that this conflict is the biggest obstacle to world peace and if Israel and the Palestinians would evaporate by killing each other there would then dawn a peaceful world. which is a ludicrous insinuation to make.

C, saying that they all deserve to die.
Heck even I as a Jew don’t hold that about the Palestinians.



YOu just wanted to hear that so you can continue the arguements that you enjoy so much. . listen this is a forum. I enjoy going on this forum as much as you or anyone else here.

Saying I wanted to hear his BS so I can continue to make arguments is like me saying you responded to me so you can continue yours.


He was only saying that each side is responsible for some of what is going on. . no, he is saying that both are equally responsible. That is simply wrong and it’s a very lazy and dishonest way of looking at the conflict…….as I explained before.


More so the palestinians, but Israel isnt 100% co-operating for the effort. . first of all he did not say what you just said.
Secondly, no ones perfect and even I will admit that Israel is not as I believe no one in this world is either, but Israel in my estimation has done more in the pursuit of a real and sincere peace when faced with the realties that it faces then what most other countries would have done if it were in the same situation as Israel has found itself in for the past fifty years.



Shalom makor. shalom to you as well.

[budanski]

No. One war was started by the US, the other was started by Al-Qaeda.

To be technical, Iraq's failure to abide to its ceasefire brought it upon itself.

[Haiw]

No. One war was started by the US, the other was started by Al-Qaeda.
well, i don't wanna be a pain-in-the ass here, but

I'M STILL WAITING FOR MY GODDAMN PROOF MISTER BUSH, WE AINT SEEN JACK SQUAD!

and yea, if i was bin laden and i hadn't done it, hell...i wud take credit for it if they'd invade a country to get me :roll: it's like being credited with capturing Hussein and getting the 25 mil while u actually didnt do anything...

just face it...in 2 years we haven't seen ANYTHING that shows it's al-qaeda...another thing that's kinda bugging me is the kind of contradictions he always gives us; on one hand he says us that the war in afghanistan basically put al-qaeda out of business, while on the other hand he says that al-qaeda is still the biggest threat and the us needs to go on a crusade to keep taking em down.... :roll:
you know it's getting kinda confusing when u aint brainwashed ;)

[Mortimer]

lol.......

[Zach R.]

Israel has every right to defend itself from terrorist attacks. And they are most certainly exercising that right with their hands tied behind their back, bent over backwards, while also trying to defend itself from the EU. It's time Israel takes a stand and kicks some serious Hamas butt. After all wasn't it the fricking terrorists who attacked Israel first (No duh!). After we're through in Iraq, we're coming for you Arafat!

[Vance]

just face it...in 2 years we haven't seen ANYTHING that shows it's al-qaeda...
Other than the fact that Bin Laden himself admitted to it, on TV?

[Mortimer]

just face it...in 2 years we haven't seen ANYTHING that shows it's al-qaeda...
Other than the fact that Bin Laden himself admitted to it, on TV?

dood not everything is that black and white.......

[Zach R.]

Oh yeah! Thanks for bringing that up Vance. Forgot about that. [/quote]

[Haiw]

read a little down vance...

just think about it....someone says you screwed the hottest chick in town...while actually you were watching tv all night... and when you admit it, it might even improve your chances of getting other chicks, and improve everything for 'your cause'....
would you deny it?
besides, denying was no use ANYWAY, so simply taking credit for it and talking all big was the only way he could gain ANYTHING from the situation, whether he'd done it or not... so ruling out that 'evidence'...what do we got?
i mean, a while back the FBI even admitted it couldnt even be sure the 21 (or 2x or how much) 'hijackers' were even the hijackers, since they honestly didnt know and couldn't find any proof!

[budanski]

I'M STILL WAITING FOR MY GODDAMN PROOF MISTER BUSH, WE AINT SEEN JACK SQUAD!

Remind us again who the **** you are and why you should matter in U.S. Foreign Policy?

[Mortimer]

I'M STILL WAITING FOR MY GODDAMN PROOF MISTER BUSH, WE AINT SEEN JACK SQUAD!

Tell us again who the f*** you are and why you should matter in U.S. Foreign policy?

Since the US decided to stick its **** in the backside of every country in the world a-hole

[Shake n Bake]

No. One war was started by the US, the other was started by Al-Qaeda.
well, i don't wanna be a pain-in-the ass here, but

I'M STILL WAITING FOR MY GODDAMN PROOF MISTER BUSH, WE AINT SEEN JACK SQUAD!

and yea, if i was bin laden and i hadn't done it, hell...i wud take credit for it if they'd invade a country to get me :roll: it's like being credited with capturing Hussein and getting the 25 mil while u actually didnt do anything...

just face it...in 2 years we haven't seen ANYTHING that shows it's al-qaeda...another thing that's kinda bugging me is the kind of contradictions he always gives us; on one hand he says us that the war in afghanistan basically put al-qaeda out of business, while on the other hand he says that al-qaeda is still the biggest threat and the us needs to go on a crusade to keep taking em down.... :roll:
you know it's getting kinda confusing when u aint brainwashed ;)





what an imbecile you are..




America and Israel needs to continue doing what they think is right for themselves and to hell with all these Euro fags who do nothing but second guess all our actions without ever contributing anything.

[Rush_die]

well someone had to say it...

you're right. europe proved once again that it is 100% against israel. :bash:

ehh wrong

they are not against Israel, they are against the violence there and are blaming Israel(and rightly so) for the continuation of violence.

you're right. israel should just lay down its arms and grab its ankles. :roll: :bash:

heh...and watch its people die due to terrorist attacks?

[budanski]

I'M STILL WAITING FOR MY GODDAMN PROOF MISTER BUSH, WE AINT SEEN JACK SQUAD!

Tell us again who the f*** you are and why you should matter in U.S. Foreign policy?

Since the US decided to stick its **** in the backside of every country in the world a-hole

So I should expect countries such as Germany, Japan, and South Korea to get in line and ask for a refund?

[Mortimer]

well someone had to say it...

you're right. europe proved once again that it is 100% against israel. :bash:

ehh wrong

they are not against Israel, they are against the violence there and are blaming Israel(and rightly so) for the continuation of violence.

you're right. israel should just lay down its arms and grab its ankles. :roll: :bash:



heh...and watch its people die due to terrorist attacks?

I didn't say that they should just lay down their weapons.....learn to read better

[Fargin]

I think it's dangerous to call any form of criticism for anti-semetic, so add me to the 59% if you feel the need to. p-)

I just love these pirate smilies p-)

[Mortimer]

You Americans you to get off your goddamn high horses, you think your so ****ing high and mighty its made you apathetic.

[budanski]

Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.

[Russian Texan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the whole mess started by the UN when it decided to give jews its own peace of land? The way I look at it, it is extremely controversial issue to whom those lands belong in the first place but Israel has the right and the obligation to defend its citizens against terror. That said, I think that Palestinians also have the right to defend their own land but only in an open honest fight, blowing up civilians its just plain cowardness and won't win to many supporters in civilaized world.

[Haiw]

America and Israel needs to continue doing what they think is right for themselves and to hell with all these Euro fags who do nothing but second guess all our actions without ever contributing anything.
actually we do contribute; lots of european soldiers in both afghanistan and iraq, but...don't u think its kinda ****ed up when u'r supposed to support a war against a country thats supporting someone that u havent even got ANY proof against whether or not he commited a terrorist act?!?!?

[Ratamacue]

That said, I think that Palestinians also have the right to defend their own land but only in an open honest fight, blowing up civilians its just plain cowardness and won't win to many supporters in civilaized world.

Apparently it has, though. :|

[budanski]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the whole mess started by the UN when it decided to give jews its own peace of land? The way I look at it, it is extremely controversial issue to whom those lands belong in the first place but Israel has the right and the obligation to defend its citizens against terror. That said, I think that Palestinians also have the right to defend their own land but only in an open honest fight, blowing up civilians its just plain cowardness and won't win to many supporters in civilaized world.

except from the support of the EU.

[Fargin]

Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.

"SHOW ME THE MONEY"

I'm not sure it's in the right context, but it's a great thing to shout into the phone.

[Haiw]

Remind us again who the f*** you are and why you should matter in U.S. Foreign Policy?
too bad i dont matter in US foreign policy, since i'm someone who doesnt swallow everything the government says like sweet candy and says yes to everything without even given a hint of anything...

[budanski]

actually we do contribute; lots of european soldiers in both afghanistan and iraq, but...don't u think its kinda f*** up when u'r supposed to support a war against a country thats supporting someone that u havent even got ANY proof against whether or not he commited a terrorist act?!?!?

You obviously don't understand the concept of War on Terrorism. Never did Bush stated this was a War on Al Queda only. It is already well documented and established that Saddam had very significant terrorists connections even without a direct Al Queda link before the war, any additional connection is icing on the cake, but not required.

[Mortimer]

Remind us again who the f*** you are and why you should matter in U.S. Foreign Policy?
too bad i dont matter in US foreign policy, since i'm someone who doesnt swallow everything the government says like sweet candy and says yes to everything without even given a hint of anything...

its ludicrous how the American public has accpeted the fact that it doesn't matter that WMDs arn't there and forgiven the USG for lying to them.

[Haiw]

well then...what OTHER groups than al-qaeda has the US named as a direct threat to themselves? cus i can't really seem to remember any...and i can't seem to remember any terrorist attacks by them either...and secondly i can't really seem to remember any 'improvement' in this war on terror since both its goals and 'scoreboard' are rather 'vague' to say the least...

[Mortimer]

actually we do contribute; lots of european soldiers in both afghanistan and iraq, but...don't u think its kinda f*** up when u'r supposed to support a war against a country thats supporting someone that u havent even got ANY proof against whether or not he commited a terrorist act?!?!?

You obviously don't understand the concept of War on Terrorism. Never did Bush stated this was a War on Al Queda only. It is already well documented and established that Saddam had very significant terrorists connections even without a direct Al Queda link before the war, any additional connection is icing on the cake, but not required.

what evidence? mr give me proof

[budanski]

what evidence? mr give me proof

Read up you prick. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm

[IDFM203]

“cockdila” :D


Correct me if I'm wrong I don’t mean to be rude but yes you are wrong



but wasn't the whole mess started by the UN when it decided to give jews its own peace of land? give the land?!? No the mess was started when the British left the land that had both Jews and Arab’s on there and the U.N then drew a line on a piece of paper. Now what followed was instead of the Arabs willing to live with the Jews they (7 Arab nations along with help from others) instead invaded in order to wipe out every single Jew living there.

That’s what stated this mess……….

Shalom :D

[Haiw]

errm..that thing only says that Saddam is giving money to the people who had a family member who became a 'martyr'/terrorist and did a suicide attack...
technically speaking it doesn't even mean he supports terrorism,
but if we take it the wide way, let's just say he supports terrorism by giving the family some money...then i still can't quite see the link between Saddam and terrorism threatening the USA. Also another quite interesting fact is that a while back bush (or rumpsfeld or some other us important mumbo jumbo politician) said Iraq had strong ties with Al-Qaeda...which i have yet to see anything of! (or did the US already admit there weren't any ties? u know all this 'say one thing first and deny it a few months later when most people have forgotten it-thing' gets me kinda confused sometimes...)

[Ratamacue]

well then...what OTHER groups than al-qaeda has the US named as a direct threat to themselves? cus i can't really seem to remember any...and i can't seem to remember any terrorist attacks by them either...and secondly i can't really seem to remember any 'improvement' in this war on terror since both its goals and 'scoreboard' are rather 'vague' to say the least...

Bush never said the groups had to directly affect the United States. Saddam provided funding to Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and Hamas which are all terrorist groups.

[Mortimer]

what evidence? mr give me proof

Read up you prick. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm

tacky but i'll give it to you

i expected better

[Shake n Bake]

too bad i dont matter in US foreign policy


Thats right you Don't matter..


Step aside let people take care of their business and stop objecting to **** that doesn't concern you

[Mortimer]

too bad i dont matter in US foreign policy


Thats right you Don't matter..


Step aside let people take care of their business and stop objecting to **** that doesn't concern you

how does that not concern him you ****? in case you can't read the word foreign means everyone NOT in the US.........

[Haiw]

Thats right you Don't matter..


Step aside let people take care of their business and stop objecting to **** that doesn't concern you

riiiite....

'let them burn...as long as it aint you, don't care'

you know there's some people around here that DO care about what happens to other people & the whole world...

you know i sometimes wonder what kind of history book we'll be reading in 50 years?

[Shake n Bake]

Thats right you Don't matter..


Step aside let people take care of their business and stop objecting to **** that doesn't concern you

riiiite....

'let them burn...as long as it aint you, don't care'



isn't that the EURO way?...........

[budanski]

errm..that thing only says that Saddam is giving money to the people who had a family member who became a 'martyr'/terrorist and did a suicide attack...
technically speaking it doesn't even mean he supports terrorism,
but if we take it the wide way, let's just say he supports terrorism by giving the family some money...then i still can't quite see the link between Saddam and terrorism threatening the USA.
I've must of given you too much credit in the past. You really are an embicile. Call it what you want, by giving the terrorist aid and support in their cause is just that. Support of Terrorism.


Also another quite interesting fact is that a while back bush (or rumpsfeld or some other us important mumbo jumbo politician) said Iraq had strong ties with Al-Qaeda...which i have yet to see anything of! (or did the US already admit there weren't any ties? u know all this 'say one thing first and deny it a few months later when most people have forgotten it-thing' gets me kinda confused sometimes...)

Show us where the U.S. implied that Iraq was tied to Al Queda.

[Haiw]

isn't that the EURO way...........
there's no 'EURO' way...europe aint 'one' yet, and it would propably still take a while for it to become 'one'....but let's just say the Dutch way is more one of taking care of each other, and actually giving a ****... (even though we once in a while happen to get a ****ty government that doesnt voice the opinion of the people :()

[rokus2595]

.. I think that Palestinians also have the right to defend their own land but only in an open honest fight, blowing up civilians its just plain cowardness and won't win to many supporters in civilaized world.

Israelis and the palestinians in an open honest fight??? One has the strongest armed forces in the middle east and is allied with the most powerful country in the world...the other doesn't even have the right to be called a nation.....!
Let's not forget that the ones getting ****ed up here in this conflict are the palestinians, period.

[Mortimer]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/archive/topic/16958-1.html

September 2002: Rumsfeld said he had five or six sentences of "bulletproof" evidence that "demonstrate that there are in fact Al Qaeda in Iraq."

[Ratamacue]

Haiw, Mortimer, just remember that your countries supported our actions in Afghanistan (and the Aussies went into Iraq as well). Obviously your countries must have been presented some form of intelligence backing up our claims, and if not, your governments must be pretty stupid, eh?

You don't seem to have any faith in the US government. Do you have faith in yours?

[budanski]

Yeah, maybe we should listen to the Dutch with all its wisdom in foreign policy as the shinning examples of European enlightenment. We should take note and study how prosperous their African colonies have now become. :roll:

[Mortimer]

Haiw, Mortimer, just remember that your countries supported our actions in Afghanistan (and the Aussies went into Iraq as well). Obviously your countries must have been presented some form of intelligence backing up our claims, and if not, your governments must be pretty stupid, eh?

You don't seem to have any faith in the US government. Do you have faith in yours?

No....

OMG!!! I"M NOT AGREEING WITH MY GOVERNMENT....I MUST BE A TERRORIST!!!

[Mortimer]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/law/2003/0706uscrimes.htm

[Mortimer]

http://www.awitness.org/news/june_2002/bin_laden_iraq.html

rofl rofl rofl

[Shake n Bake]

but let's just say the Dutch way is more one of taking care of each other, and actually giving a f***...


..and thats thats exactly what we and Israel are doing...taking care of our own and we wont stop and lay down cause some fag in the Netherlands doesn't like it.

[budanski]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/archive/topic/16958-1.html

September 2002: Rumsfeld said he had five or six sentences of "bulletproof" evidence that "demonstrate that there are in fact Al Qaeda in Iraq."



This is rich. Why not source me from the Kalamazoo Bridge Club Forum?

[Haiw]

I've must of given you too much credit in the past. You really are an embicile. Call it what you want, by giving the terrorist aid and support in their cause is just that. Support of Terrorism.[quote]
Even when you still call it supporting terrorism (which is a rather hard case to make, since it doesnt make it by a long shot to training terrorists, providing weapons etc. etc. basically, all they did in this case was supporting the families of the ones that died in a cause they supported...), but even so, it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with a threat to US national security (which Bush has said on multiple occasions Iraq was a threat to...)

[quote]Show us where the U.S. implied that Iraq was tied to Al Queda.

Allright, just for you a special present :)

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/Iraq.Qaeda.link/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/sprj.irq.bush.iraq/index.html

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,76871,00.html[url]

allright..so much for today...almost 0530 here...see ya guys after i've woken up ;)

[Mortimer]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/law/2003/0525warillegal.htm

rofl rofl

i could go all night

[Haiw]

Haiw, Mortimer, just remember that your countries supported our actions in Afghanistan (and the Aussies went into Iraq as well). Obviously your countries must have been presented some form of intelligence backing up our claims, and if not, your governments must be pretty stupid, eh?
you won't hear me denie the last part.....we've had a centrum-right coalition for the last 2 years or so and they pretty much messed everything up they could get their hands on

[Haiw]

Yeah, maybe we should listen to the Dutch with all its wisdom in foreign policy as the shinning examples of European enlightenment. We should take note and study how prosperous their African colonies have now become. :roll:

history 101...we never HAD any african colonies :|

for those u'll propably have to go to your faithfull allies the british ;)

(and yea, i know this is a stupid argument, since the other 'africa-colony-countries' where the french, germans, belgians & portoguese)

[Haiw]

..and thats thats exactly what we and Israel are doing...taking care of our own and we wont stop and lay down cause some fag in the Netherlands doesn't like it.
ye but the problem is this 'dutch fag' isn't the only one who thinks this way.... :roll:

[Haiw]

now goddamnit let me get to sleep ;)

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well looks like i lit a fire under idfm203's ass. The only way to end this conflict of Israel and Palestine will probably be one side laying down its weapons and actually willing to take steps to stop agravating each other and causeing more conflict. (if they dont it is for-see-able for each side to start a full out war hence why i was talking about both sides eradicating each other)Example #1: Israel still is building jewish settlements in the west bank even though in the roadmap it said they would stop current construction of settlements and actually tear down some settlements. Did it happen? No there was a couple torn down but last time I checked they are still building them. Example #2 Palestine has to actually do something about the terrorism(i.e. arafat/hezbolah). Has that been done? No. Example #3: Israels "secuirty fence"...obvioulsy it restricts movement of palestinian people. Will it do any good? Probably not it will only raise tensions on each side. Besides your security fence is useless when a good set of bolt cutters could cut it wide open. Example #4: Palestinian's seem to be treated as "second grade" people. They dont have the access to water/health care/food like the Israeli's do. Israel controls a good majority of the water that actually goes into palestine, which im sure there are not happy about.

Yup so ill go back to watching Hockey Night in Canada (go edmonton go) .
P.s. It was told to me by a smart man way back in the day "You make your own bed so lay in it" So that applys to both sides.

[Russian Texan]

.. I think that Palestinians also have the right to defend their own land but only in an open honest fight, blowing up civilians its just plain cowardness and won't win to many supporters in civilaized world.

Israelis and the palestinians in an open honest fight??? One has the strongest armed forces in the middle east and is allied with the most powerful country in the world...the other doesn't even have the right to be called a nation.....!
Let's not forget that the ones getting f*** up here in this conflict are the palestinians, period.

I still don't see how it justifies killing civilians. Also I don't see this conflict being ever resolved in a peacefull way, it will go on till either all the jews or arabs are dead...

[Mortimer]

that seems to be the mentality.......pitty its the wrong one

[IDFM203]

Well looks like i lit a fire under idfm203's ass. hehe good one there canuck ;)

Well it actually seems like I lit one up your ass being that you felt the need to make yourself more clear now.


The only way to end this conflict of Israel and Palestine will probably be one side laying down its weapons wow we have a true genius here :roll:

Oh so if Israel lays down its weapons, the conflict will be over?!? The violence will stop?!? Is that what you really believe?!?


and actually willing to take steps to stop agravating each other and causeing more conflict. wow doesn’t it get any simpler then that ;)

Yes so for the most part Israel being attacked and then responding to that is in your view aggravating each other.


(if they dont it is for-see-able for each side to start a full out war hence why i was talking about both sides eradicating each other) well first of all it seemed as if your were justifying the eradication of both the Israelis and the Palestinians

Secondly if there were an all out war that’s started by the Palestinians, well they will not be able to eradicate the Jews, that I can guarantee you.

I will say though that like my sigline says if they had Israel’s power, they would in fact act upon it to destroy Israel.

As for your 4 points. It has been talked about over and over in great detail before so I don’t care now to go over them at length again with you.



Yup so ill go back to watching Hockey Night in Canada (go edmonton go) . yes much simpler for you indeed…. enjoy :D

shalom :D

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I've said it before and I'll say it again "You make your own bed so lay in it". Both sides have let it escalate this far so both sides will have to deal with it, wether it will be a all out war or a peacekeeping force sent in to stabilize the region...whatever happens both sides are going to have to deal with the reprocussions of there actions. Since obviously they cannot handle the situation themselves they end up dragging other countries into it (I.e. United States and there roadmap)..then when they do make progress its very little and doesnt last long.

"two steps forward 3 steps backwards"

[IDFM203]

.. I think that Palestinians also have the right to defend their own land but only in an open honest fight, blowing up civilians its just plain cowardness and won't win to many supporters in civilaized world.

Israelis and the palestinians in an open honest fight??? One has the strongest armed forces in the middle east and is allied with the most powerful country in the world...the other doesn't even have the right to be called a nation.....!
Let's not forget that the ones getting f*** up here in this conflict are the palestinians, period.

I still don't see how it justifies killing civilians. Also I don't see this conflict being ever resolved in a peacefull way, it will go on till either all the jews or arabs are dead... Well you say a very telling thing here.

The fact is that Israel has the military might to kill every Arab (and no I am not saying that it should) today. But yet doesn’t do it nor does it even come close to that.

But if the Arabs ever got Israel’s military capability (as they thought they did in the past and have tried before) they would not hesitate a second to end the conflict militarily so to speak.

Israel pays a high price for its correct moral restraint, something which the Arabs would not do if the military might were reversed.

Shalom :D

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Ironic idfm203..how come when i make a post i get called a "genius" and "simple". I certainly dont see anything productive.
Quote:

"The only way to end this conflict of Israel and Palestine will probably be one side laying down its weapons "

"wow we have a true genius here
Oh so if Israel lays down its weapons, the conflict will be over?!? The violence will stop?!? Is that what you really believe?!?"

O.k. Im going to poke grapefruit sized holes in your post now. Maybe you didnt read what you qouted me as saying or maybe you let your emotions fly off the handle..either way I said "one side laying down its weapons" not Israel itself. :cantbeli: Personally I dont think either side will.

"Oh so if Israel lays down its weapons, the conflict will be over?!? The violence will stop?!? Is that what you really believe?!?"
Well certainly buying weapons, bulldozing buildings doesnt exactly help now does it? You think its "water under the bridge" for the people who lost there house's..i think not.

"Quote:
and actually willing to take steps to stop agravating each other and causeing more conflict."
thats mine...idfm203 response is.. "wow doesn’t it get any simpler then that
Yes so for the most part Israel being attacked and then responding to that is in your view aggravating each other."
At this point im really wondering if you read my post or not. Certainly by making life a bitch for the palestinian people isnt going to make it better. More finger pointing doesnt help either...i know how much you'd like to blame palestinians for everything but you guys are bringing it on yourselves. So when you bomb a terrorist and hurt civillians you dont think that they will get angry and join the terrorists side?

So your personal attacks towards me are plain lame and retarded. Oh ya hey idfm203 sometimes the simplest solution is the best, only complicating the situation more will come to bite you on the ass in the future ;)

[Red]

Hey let me get into this fight,first of the europeans are the ones who need to get off their high horses,see the way you all treat your blacks and minorities no wonder you all killed jews all day long.Europeans always feel like they know it all the are documented jew killers.To the Americans you all need to get of your high horses cause you all think that might is right since you all are strong you just go on and bomb whomsoever.Why dont you all just take over the world,i love the US though because they take care of their blacks and minorites better than anyone else on earth even better than Africa.To the Jews and Arabs you all need to get off your high horses,you all think you are special,well maybe you are becasue i know that the day israel gets invaded by a mix of european,russian and arabic troops because of a peace plan then we all know the world has ended.Israeli's you all hate blacks,you use the ethiopian Jews as a security wall against the attacks from the arabs,Arabs you all are perhaps the most racist no the europeans are more racist but basically you all are descendants of Ismael,son of Hagar so i understand why ya'll are violent.So in conclusion,you all need to get off your high horses and work out your differences like mature adults,as you can all see,you all have faults no matter what side of the divide you are on.

[Mortimer]

Hey let me get into this fight,first of the europeans are the ones who need to get off their high horses,see the way you all treat your blacks and minorities no wonder you all killed jews all day long.Europeans always feel like they know it all the are documented jew killers.To the Americans you all need to get of your high horses cause you all think that might is right since you all are strong you just go on and bomb whomsoever.Why dont you all just take over the world,i love the US though because they take care of their blacks and minorites better than anyone else on earth even better than Africa.To the Jews and Arabs you all need to get off your high horses,you all think you are special,well maybe you are becasue i know that the day israel gets invaded by a mix of european,russian and arabic troops because of a peace plan then we all know the world has ended.Israeli's you all hate blacks,you use the ethiopian Jews as a security wall against the attacks from the arabs,Arabs you all are perhaps the most racist no the europeans are more racist but basically you all are descendants of Ismael,son of Hagar so i understand why ya'll are violent.So in conclusion,you all need to get off your high horses and work out your differences like mature adults,as you can all see,you all have faults no matter what side of the divide you are on.

there are 1 million blacks prison.......you saying your treatment of blacks is better then the rest of the world?


Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black - HRW

[Mortimer]

South Africa, duing the aparthied, had lower incarceration rates for blacks then the US has now.

[IDFM203]

Ironic idfm203..how come when i make a post i get called a "genius" and "simple". I certainly dont see anything productive. well if I left it at that the you might have a point but as you yourself go further I have added more to that……



O.k. Im going to poke grapefruit sized holes in your post now. Maybe you didnt read what you qouted me as saying or maybe you let your emotions fly off the handle saying that the Jews and Palestinians should just eradicate themselves and then accusing other’s of using emotion is simply absurd.




..either way I said "one side laying down its weapons" not Israel itself. :cantbeli: Personally I dont think either side will.
no you said, "The only way to end this conflict of Israel and Palestine will probably be one side laying down its weapons.” Now I don’t understand how you could have meant anything else.

“One side” is asking for one side to drop its weapons in the hope that the other will as well.

And I responded to that insinuation that if Israel drops its weapons do you believe that the conflict will be over?!? Do you believe that the violence will stop?!? More specifically do you believe that the Palestinians will stop its killing??!

(I refer you to my sigline as to what I believe is the answer to those questions)


"Oh so if Israel lays down its weapons, the conflict will be over?!? The violence will stop?!? Is that what you really believe?!?"
Well certainly buying weapons, bulldozing buildings doesnt exactly help now does it? .
It doesn’t stop it but it limits the killings. Yes bulldozing a house that was used by Palestinians to kill Israelis does limit it a bit and the same is true for a house that was the home of a homicide bomber.

This is not about solving any grand solution for that is when the Arabs truly in their heart recognise Israel’s right to exist (and not just a few of them saying it I a few token English words). No this is about Israel trying its best in its restraint to limit the amount of death that it has to endure.


You think its "water under the bridge" for the people who lost there house's..i think not. . and you think its water under the bridge to the Israeli that was killed by the use of that house or its occupants??

You talk about houses, which can always be replaced. I am talking about human lives which cannot be replaced.!!!!


"Quote:
and actually willing to take steps to stop agravating each other and causeing more conflict."
thats mine...idfm203 response is.. "wow doesn’t it get any simpler then that
Yes so for the most part Israel being attacked and then responding to that is in your view aggravating each other."
At this point im really wondering if you read my post or not. Certainly by making life a bitch for the palestinian people isnt going to make it better. . listen that’s not understanding the conflict.

Israel must defend itself and while I understand that the Palestinians are living in not good conditions, it must also be understood that if they stopped the constant killings of Israelis, something which never happened even during the Oslo years, then something can be done about that but right now Israel has no choice but to defend itself as any other nation would do.


...i know how much you'd like to blame palestinians for everything . I have not done that. I have said that Israel isn’t perfect as is no one in this world but I simply believe that in the bigger picture, Israel has done what is correct in its defence of its citizens especially when faced with the kind of harsh reality that it has had to face for the past fifty years.

It has simply no other choice!!!



but you guys are bringing it on yourselves. . yes apparently by us being in Israel, we are bringing this upon us. Yes we get that!!!


So when you bomb a terrorist and hurt civillians you dont think that they will get angry and join the terrorists side? . accidents happen

There is simply no moral equivalence to Israel responding to attacks on its citizens by targeting a killer or a murderer and then accidentally killing an innocent bystander to the Palestinians constantly targeting innocent Israelis.



So your personal attacks towards me are plain lame and retarded. . I don’t see how I personally attacked you.

I think it’s your inference that I somehow did that is lame and retarded.



Oh ya hey idfm203 sometimes the simplest solution is the best, only complicating the situation more will come to bite you on the ass in the future ;) yes I agree with that on principle but I have yet seen you offer up any simple solution here.

Sometimes the reality is that there is none :|

Shalom :D

[Mortimer]

I have not done that. I have said that Israel isn’t perfect as is no one in this world but I simply believe that in the bigger picture, Israel has done what is correct in its defence of its citizens especially when faced with the kind of harsh reality that it has had to face for the past fifty years.

It has simply no other choice!!!



that is the biggest load of **** i have ever heard

[Shake n Bake]

there are 1 million blacks prison.......you saying your treatment of blacks is better then the rest of the world?


Blacks in America are the richest and most privileged black people in the world..There is no where else in the world blacks and minorities have more opportunities then here in America.

[IDFM203]

I have not done that. I have said that Israel isn’t perfect as is no one in this world but I simply believe that in the bigger picture, Israel has done what is correct in its defence of its citizens especially when faced with the kind of harsh reality that it has had to face for the past fifty years.

It has simply no other choice!!!



that is the biggest load of **** i have ever heardahhh and we finally "meet" woot ;)

So you as an aussi are calling me full of **** about a conflict that I (not you) am personally involved in :roll:

Shalom :D

[Mortimer]

I have not done that. I have said that Israel isn’t perfect as is no one in this world but I simply believe that in the bigger picture, Israel has done what is correct in its defence of its citizens especially when faced with the kind of harsh reality that it has had to face for the past fifty years.

It has simply no other choice!!!



that is the biggest load of **** i have ever heardahhh and we finally "meet" woot ;)

So you as an aussi are calling me full of **** about a conflict that I (not you) am personally involved in :roll:

Shalom :D

If you think its either fight or die then you are full of ****.

[Shake n Bake]

If you think its either fight or die then you are full of ****.


I think history has proven that to be true for jews

[Mortimer]

If you think its either fight or die then you are full of ****.


I think history has proven that to be true for jews

nearly the biggest load of **** i have ever heard.

[Shake n Bake]

btw: I couldn't care less for the plight of Jews/arabs/etc....


My first concern is for the safety, well-being, and quality of life of the people of my nation.

[Mortimer]

god bless america!!

[IDFM203]

I have not done that. I have said that Israel isn’t perfect as is no one in this world but I simply believe that in the bigger picture, Israel has done what is correct in its defence of its citizens especially when faced with the kind of harsh reality that it has had to face for the past fifty years.

It has simply no other choice!!!



that is the biggest load of **** i have ever heardahhh and we finally "meet" woot ;)

So you as an aussi are calling me full of **** about a conflict that I (not you) am personally involved in :roll:

Shalom :D

If you think its either fight or die then you are full of ****.
First of all, that has been the history of this conflict whether you in Australia think that reality is full of **** or not

All I will say now is if you believe that the Palestinians are fighting to just end the occupation of the 1967 borders then you are more full of **** then I really care to define.

Shalom.

[Jack Mehoff]

South Africa, duing the aparthied, had lower incarceration rates for blacks then the US has now.

Coming from an Aussie whose country almost wiped out the entire race of people (aborigine). Talk about moral high road :lol: You are just as guilty as anybody else.

ASK any non-white people in the world which country they rather choose to live. 9 out of 10 they will pick United States of America as their adopt country. Yeah, we treat non-white people very badly and yet, they rather live here in America than anywhere else in the world. rofl

So tell me, how many non-white people hold prestigous government positions in Australia government? rofl

[Bootneck]

Sad to say but I can't wait until the Arab/Muslim timebomb developing in parts of Europe goes off. When there's a smoking ruin in the heart of a French or Belgian city then maybe the tune will change.

[Mortimer]

South Africa, duing the aparthied, had lower incarceration rates for blacks then the US has now.

Coming from an Aussie whose country almost wiped out the entire race of people (aborigine). Talk about moral high road :lol: You are just as guilty as anybody else.

ASK any non-white people in the world which country they rather choose to live. 9 out of 10 they will pick United States of America as their adopt country. Yeah, we treat non-white people very badly and yet, they rather live here in America than anywhere else in the world. rofl

So tell me, how many non-white people hold prestigous government positions in Australia government? rofl

what about the American Indians jack off? and get your facts strait, we didn't wipe them out, and they are better represented in gov then the Indians in your dumb ass country who you exploit by allowing them to make casinos and then tax the hell out of them.

Before you even start, go and get some more roids you muscle head.

[Mortimer]

Sad to say but I can't wait until the Arab/Muslim timebomb developing in parts of Europe goes off. When there's a smoking ruin in the heart of a French or Belgian city then maybe the tune will change.

i can't wait till a fanatical muslim straps himself with a nuke and blows the **** out of your mum

[Shake n Bake]

Indians in your dumb ass country who you exploit by allowing them to make casinos and then tax the hell out of them.



Indian© reservations are tax exempt and most get free collage scholarships.

[Mortimer]

well one of Arnie's election promises was higher tax's on indian casinos :roll:

[Jack Mehoff]

South Africa, duing the aparthied, had lower incarceration rates for blacks then the US has now.

Coming from an Aussie whose country almost wiped out the entire race of people (aborigine). Talk about moral high road :lol: You are just as guilty as anybody else.

ASK any non-white people in the world which country they rather choose to live. 9 out of 10 they will pick United States of America as their adopt country. Yeah, we treat non-white people very badly and yet, they rather live here in America than anywhere else in the world. rofl

So tell me, how many non-white people hold prestigous government positions in Australia government? rofl

what about the American Indians jack off? and get your facts strait, we didn't wipe them out, and they are better represented in gov then the Indians in your dumb ass country who you exploit by allowing them to make casinos and then tax the hell out of them.

Before you even start, go and get some more roids you muscle head.

Exactly!! I never condemn YOUR history because I already know my country history. So just shut your moral high road crap. For some reason i think the native Australian(aborigine) did not volunteer to offer Australia, their native land, to the white men.


You are just as guilty as anybody else.

^^yes, that includes USA

Are you sure non-white Aussie equally represent in Aussie's government? proportional speaking that is.



ASK any non-white people in the world which country they rather choose to live. 9 out of 10 they will pick United States of America as their adopt country. Yeah, we treat non-white people very badly and yet, they rather live here in America than anywhere else in the world.

[Mortimer]

however, allowing them tax excemption on casino profits goes nowhere in them gaining self determination....something which Australian Aboriginies at least have started and is becoming more widely accpeted.

[Mortimer]

Are American Indians represented in gov at all??

[Ratamacue]

So at first, taxes on them were bad, but now tax exemption is bad? Make up your mind, dude.

[Shake n Bake]

this is getting petty comparing aboriginies© to Indians©


I concede!!

[Mortimer]

no i was just showing how jack contridicted himself when critisising our treatment of Aboriginies.

however all he did was side step the statisics i put forward......Australia does not have incarsiration rates like that

comparing our two prison systems would have been better.

and again, how are American Indians represented in gov?

[Ratamacue]

But he wasn't. He was saying that we've done no worse than you have.

[Jack Mehoff]

Are American Indians represented in gov at all??

Yes, but the Native American's population is like 1%-2% among U.S. population so don't expect a lot of them make it through the rank.

But U.S.A have a **** load of colored people as senators, state governors, mayors, police chiefs, supreme court judges, the last two Army's Joint Chief of Staff were minority men( Gen Eric Shinseki and Gen Colin Powell), Colin Powell is also Secretary of State which is a very powerful position.

[Mortimer]

so? the Aboriginal population here is the same....yet they have a minister dedicated to them, our courts take into consideration customary law, they have their own gov dep(ATSIC), they can claim native title on land.....etc...etc

and we too have a large ethnic monority here.......

also, i wasn't talking about members of congress or parliament.

we've got about 5 MP/senators who are aboriginal

don't ****ing preach to me about Aboriginies, i grew up with them and studied them

[Shake n Bake]

no i was just showing how jack contridicted himself when critisising our treatment of Aboriginies.

however all he did was side step the statisics i put forward......Australia does not have incarsiration rates like that

comparing our two prison systems would have been better.

and again, how are American Indians represented in gov?


How can you compare a country with almost 300 million people and a much higher black population to Australia??


Indian land is kinda sovereign...they prefer their own tribal councils and stuff

[Jack Mehoff]

no i was just showing how jack contridicted himself when critisising our treatment of Aboriginies.

however all he did was side step the statisics i put forward......Australia does not have incarsiration rates like that

comparing our two prison systems would have been better.

and again, how are American Indians represented in gov?

Hey genius, maybe because your country DOES NOT have 30% of population as non-caucasian. I want to see how well Australia can handle when they have 30% of their population listed as not caucasian. Did I mention US's population is about 300 million?

Australias diversity is nothing compare to Americas diversity.

Yes, America treat non-caucasian people like ****. But yet, they rather live here than anywhere else in the world.

[Mortimer]

you guys obviously know jack all about American Indians.......

what a pointless tangent.....

[Ratamacue]

You honestly think you know more about American Indians than those of us that grew up here learning about American history? One of the biggest things we learn about is the ways and customs of many of the major tribes, how we murdered them, and why it was wrong. No one wants another genocide.

AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE NOT AS STUPID AS YOU THINK.

[Mortimer]

well Jack and mr shake n bake have just shown they no nothing when it comes to American Indians in the 21st century. i don't know anything about them and i never pretended to.

what has history got to do with anything?

i asked how are they represented in gov?

ffs

i wonder if you guys even know what stupid means

[Jack Mehoff]

you guys obviously know jack all about American Indians.......

what a pointless tangent.....

Is a Navajo looks like this old man aka "Running Bear" ? :lol: Yes, i really don't know **** about Native American.

Also, we don't call them American Indians you dumbass.




http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/montoya.jpg

[Mortimer]

you guys obviously know jack all about American Indians.......

what a pointless tangent.....

Is a Navajo looks like this old man aka "Running Bear" ? :lol: Yes, i really don't know **** about Native American.

Also, we don't call them American Indians you dumbass.




http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/montoya.jpg

you know an American Indian ....................WOW

[Ratamacue]

Mort, how do you know they don't know **** when you don't know ****?

[Mortimer]

i swear jack i have met blondes with more intelligence then you

err becuase he doesn' know anything about "native Americans" in government.......he probably doesn't even know who Ben Nighthorse Cambell is

[Ratamacue]

Do you do anything but slam on others and their actions? Do you ever post anything positive? All I ever see you do is slam the US government, slam the American people, and use personal insults to further your arguments. Get a grip, man. It's people like you that make this such a terrible world to live in.

[Mortimer]

how old are you?

[Ratamacue]

What does it matter?

[Mortimer]

i'd like to know what i'm working with here

[Ratamacue]

I'm old enough to maintain my composure in an argument. How's that?

[Mortimer]

fine
i fail to see how me asking how are Indians represented in government, makes me think i know more about them then you guys do......its a pretty simple question.......they either are or not

[Ratamacue]

Native American reservations are pretty much individual countries. Many laws do not apply there and the reservations themselves have no official representation TO MY KNOWLEDGE. However, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, all Natives are US citizens, which means that if they so desire, they can run for government office.

[Jack Mehoff]

I too wonder how old is Mortimer. I'm guessing hes still in his teen and his balls haven't dropped yet. I mean, what else do you expect from a guy who made an assassination threat to U.S. president?

[Mortimer]

well you know what they say about steroids jack.....

[Jack Mehoff]

fine
i fail to see how me asking how are Indians represented in government, makes me think i know more about them then you guys do......its a pretty simple question.......they either are or not

My FIRST reply to this thread was for your Aussie's point of view high moral road about the mistreatment of black and colored people in America. Then, you brought in the Native Americans wtf?

[Jack Mehoff]

well you know what they say about steroids jack.....

Steroid indeed

http://www.nastyburger.com/flex.jpg

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Just trying to steer the topic away from Jacks diet supplements and Morties balls here is a few of links from my fave Islamist / Zionist propaganda sites.

www.zoa.org/video.htm The christain fundies will like this one.

www.zoa.org/pubs.htm Twisted bed time reading.

www.abbc.com Grab your copy of The Protcols Of Zion.

www.jdl.org Mad just plain mad.

www.radioislam.com Hatred in a velvet glove.

I do like propaganda sites so post your fave links, english only please as my Hebrew translator has gone back to college and my Arabic translator has left town for a while. I do hope OCR technology improves soon.

[Shake n Bake]

http://godhatesfags.com


p-)

[Saranof]

Well this idiocy from these supposed "enlightened Europeans' just reinforces to me why we need to have a strong idf and why Israel is so important to the security of the Jewish people.

Shalom :D

(I now await the usual verbal diatribe about Israel that’s expected to follow…….) :| :|


Well, if you remember who actually made it possible for you to have a country, it was the UN, which was mostly Europe and the US a that time...

So now we are the enemy? For what? For condeming the illegal state terrorism that the IDF commits?
Open you eyes. If the world is against you, dosn't that say something to you? Or is the whole world "anti jewish nazi propaganda!"
But sure, go on saying that the EU is a huge anti zionist conspiracy. I think you can tell how stupid it sounds.

[Haiw]

Hey let me get into this fight,first of the europeans are the ones who need to get off their high horses,see the way you all treat your blacks and minorities no wonder you all killed jews all day long.Europeans always feel like they know it all the are documented jew killers.
riiite so...we threat blacks and minorities like ****? errm...let me remind you of history; the europeans weren't the ones that had segregration till the sixties... furthermore there's no anti-black or anti-minority mentality here, and the 'you-european-jew-killers' becomes kinda lame you know...first, it's 60 years ago and nobody here would even think of repeating it...second, the holocaust was something caused by the regime of one country, not by entire europe! it's like saying that because there was apartheid in south-africa, entire africa is rascist!

[Red]

Australians have to be the most racist country in the world,anyway back to the subject at hand.In my opinion,there will never be peace between Israel and the Arabs at least not for a long time,the two parties are both very determined to stick to their agenda's they need a third party that is not allinged to any of the other two parties to help iron out issues.Israel has a right to defend itself but sometimes they can be a bit too lenient.I loved it when they dropped that one tonne bomb on those Hamas puppies.I understand what the israeli's are going through and i support them 110% even though what they are doing to the palestininas is not fair and i know i wont want that done to me.And israelis hate blacks.

[Haiw]

and no, i don't wanna take the moral highground, i know that in the past our country got rich from the slavetrade and the colonies in what's now called indonesia...furthermore when indonesia wanted independance we started a war where we murdered pillaged etc. etc.

however, that being said, my country not having a 100% clean background either doesnt all of a sudden discredit anything i say about other countries...besides, my country kind of looks like it learned something from it's past, whereas the US looks like it's going the same road it went after the cold war started.

[Red]

Hey let me get into this fight,first of the europeans are the ones who need to get off their high horses,see the way you all treat your blacks and minorities no wonder you all killed jews all day long.Europeans always feel like they know it all the are documented jew killers.
riiite so...we threat blacks and minorities like ****? errm...let me remind you of history; the europeans weren't the ones that had segregration till the sixties... furthermore there's no anti-black or anti-minority mentality here, and the 'you-european-jew-killers' becomes kinda lame you know...first, it's 60 years ago and nobody here would even think of repeating it...second, the holocaust was something caused by the regime of one country, not by entire europe! it's like saying that because there was apartheid in south-africa, entire africa is rascist!

you dont have to be ashamed i mean it's european custom to thumb their noses at anything non-european,Thats why they treat America so shabiliy after America saved them from destroying themselves.Let me put it like this without America Europe would not have existed anymore,we would just have had a very large German State.Israel needs to invade Europe

[Haiw]

you dont have to be ashamed i mean it's european custom to thumb their noses at anything non-european,Thats why they treat America so shabiliy after America saved them from destroying themselves.Let me put it like this without America Europe would not have existed anymore,we would just have had a very large German State.Israel needs to invade Europe
first...there's no 'european', second, you don't know crap about us...third...the world aint what it was after ww2 anymore..fourth, if the US never wuda done anything we would have either been liberated by the british or the soviets, but we hell sure wudnt have been a german state :P

[Red]

you dont have to be ashamed i mean it's european custom to thumb their noses at anything non-european,Thats why they treat America so shabiliy after America saved them from destroying themselves.Let me put it like this without America Europe would not have existed anymore,we would just have had a very large German State.Israel needs to invade Europe
first...there's no 'european', second, you don't know crap about us...third...the world aint what it was after ww2 anymore..fourth, if the US never wuda done anything we would have either been liberated by the british or the soviets, but we hell sure wudnt have been a german state :P

Dont be angry my little European Haiw,first of i have lived in Europe for a couple of years so i know what i am talking about,i like the dutch though because of Ajax and the Dutch Red light District

[Red]

C'mon you know that America saved ya'lls behind you owe America so much but all of a sudden they say WWII was a long time ago,well then fine next time the USA should just invade europe and use it to grow sugar

[S'13]

Well, if you remember who actually made it possible for you to have a country, it was the UN, which was mostly Europe and the US a that time...

Did the UN fight the 7 Arab armies that invaded Israel in the 1948 War of Independence (or any other war after that)?

Did the UN build Tel-Aviv or the National Water Carrier and dried the swamps which brought malaria in the Galilee?

Did the UN bring Jews into Israel at the time of the British Mandate when it was "illegal"?

If not then you can't tell us the UN made it possible for us to have a state but us alone. All the UN did was draw a line on a map and tell us this is how the partition would be and told the British to leave the Land of Israel, something which they would have done even without the UN telling them to do so.

[Haiw]

C'mon you know that America saved ya'lls behind you owe America so much but all of a sudden they say WWII was a long time ago,well then fine next time the USA should just invade europe and use it to grow sugar
ye well the americans 60 years ago might have saved our asses...and yes, we're still very gratefull to the veterans and the people that have given their lives; they'll never be forgotten.
HOWEVER, the acts of those men and women in the past didn't give a carte blanche for future US generations to **** up the world...

[Seoulstriker]

Don't hate the playa. Hate the game.

boondocks?

[rokus2595]

If you think its either fight or die then you are full of ****.


I think history has proven that to be true for jews


.....and now to the palestinians.... :|

[IDFM203]

Well this idiocy from these supposed "enlightened Europeans' just reinforces to me why we need to have a strong idf and why Israel is so important to the security of the Jewish people.

Shalom :D

(I now await the usual verbal diatribe about Israel that’s expected to follow…….) :| :|


Well, if you remember who actually made it possible for you to have a country, it was the UN, which was mostly Europe and the US a that time... . like s 13 said…..

Did the UN fight the 7 Arab armies that invaded Israel in the 1948 War of Independence (or any other war after that)?

If not then you can't tell us the UN made it possible for us to have a state but us alone. All the UN did was draw a line on a map and tell us this is how the partition would be and told the British to leave the Land of Israel (which already had jew's living there for years), something which they would have done even without the UN telling them to do so”



So now we are the enemy? I never said that. All I will say is that they certainly aren’t our friends nor or they any real impartial observer here.


For what? For condeming the illegal state terrorism that the IDF commits? no this poll goes beyond that. Even if Israel is doing what you are saying (which it is not), it is eons away from disrupting world peace.

I mean the gull of Europe who is responsible for starting two world wars that has killed more innocent people then in all the history of mankind and who has been implicit in funding Palestinian terrorism and yet they have the audacity to put tiny Israel on top a threat to world peace?!? Are you insane?!? (well………)



Open you eyes. If the world is against you, dosn't that say something to you? during the holocaust, most countries in the world did not accept Jewish refugees that were running from the Nazis or when the U.N. has all these resolutions against Israel but not one against the PLO or against any Arab state!!!!!!…That says a lot to me just like the idiocy of this poll says a lot to me as well.

Israel will defend itself and do the right thing no matter what Europe and its oil and Arab interests tell us what to do.


But sure, go on saying that the EU is a huge anti zionist conspiracy. hey there is no conspiracy, its out in the open now.



I think you can tell how stupid it sounds. no I can tell how stupid you sound and how that poll sounds.

Shalom :D

[StarvingStudent47]

Are American Indians represented in gov at all??

I don't know, why don't you email US Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (http://campbell.senate.gov/) and ask him yourself?

[usa320]

Israel may be a threat to peace in the region, but the terrorist groups that are shelter by yassar arafat are a FAR greater peace to world security and stability.


However i think the US is the greatest threat to world peace.

Nope, its assholes like you.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/usa320/stfu.jpg

[Mr. Nielsen]

Arafat shelter terrorists? He can't even shelter himself from anything.

And how exactly are those organisations in the occupied territories threatning world security and stability.

Or are you refering to the Al Qaeda?

[duck]

Arafat IS a terrorist, don't forget that. Just a terrorist who knows how to play the media game.

[IDFM203]

Arafat shelter terrorists? He can't even shelter himself from anything. well perhaps now he is not ( which is in itself debatable) but he most certainly was doing that up until recently.


And how exactly are those organisations in the occupied territories threatning world security and stability. and how is Israel that is operating in those territories to go after these killers a threat to world peace and security?!?

shalom :D

[Kriz]

Arafat IS a terrorist, don't forget that. Just a terrorist who knows how to play the media game.

So is Ariel Sharon, only he does in state terrorism. And he knows how to play the media game just as well as Arafat.

[StarvingStudent47]

To get back to the main point...

This poll doesn't surprise me at all. It's just the ghost of Neville Chamberlain announcing "No war in our time!" If someone had tried to pre-empt Adolph Hitler, Chamberlain would have condemned that country as the aggressor, not Nazi Germany. Go figure.

To quote The Two Towers:
Theodin: "I will not risk open war!"
Aragorn: "Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not."

I genuinely hope that it does not take another 9/11 to wake Europe up to the real threat to world peace.

[martinexsquaddie]

er hang on Europeans have been dealing with terrorism rather longer than the US.
Plus we never exported weapons to Terrorist groups in the US thanks for that one. or tried to shelter terrorists by claiming there crimes were political.
Or set up and funded Terror Groups contras anyone?
or even encouraged WMD use by terror groups Cuba?

[Mortimer]

Are American Indians represented in gov at all??

I don't know, why don't you email US Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (http://campbell.senate.gov/) and ask him yourself?

ooOoO your so smart, you can search google.....LIKE I DID!


Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:23 pm Post subject:
i swear jack i have met blondes with more intelligence then you

err becuase he doesn' know anything about "native Americans" in government.......he probably doesn't even know who Ben Nighthorse Cambell is

[Fargin]

I know, I know... it's absurd, but each time I see this picture, I get nazi flashbacks:
http://www.x-plane.org/users/usa320/stfu.jpg

[Haiw]

How's this one for you then Fargin:
http://members.home.nl/maritavandenheuvel/Haiw/arniestfuduits2.jpg

[Red]

Ok now let me be serious,there will always be a difference in opinions between Europe and America what needs to be done is that one party and i wont say which,needs to drop their arrogant can do attitude and hear the other side out.In the case of israel,the only reason i support Israel is because of my religion,anything other than that is just plain evil.What the israel's are doing to the palestininas is just wrong.Everyone is fed up with israel

[UoUo]

WTF ? what is your relgion ?

[Adri]

hmmm....

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
this topic sucks! (but is the funniest topic ever!)


I tink the world is the biggest threath to Norway !
so you are all a threath to us ! just wait, we are going to destroy you all with our super-plasma-automatic-exsplosive-pice of ****-gun ! woot :fork: :slap: :bash:

WE WILL WIN, WE WILL KILL YOU ALL !!!!!! muhaaaaaa !!!

[WARPIG]

Trying to compare how Israel is handling the Palestinian terrorist threat to the US war in Iraq is completely idiotic. The only similarity is that the EU likes to criticise both of us. They think they can take the moral high ground because they aren't currently trying to wipe any race of the face of the earth or for some EU countries.. just standing by as it happens. The US is bound to take criticism from Europe.
i]Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)[/i]
Israel is wide open to criticism because they aren't attempting to win hearts and minds, but rather are using strong arm tactics against Palestinian agression. Do you think the anti-Jewish culture in Europe has nothing to do with it? I personally think the Israeli tactics are absolutely wrong and don't see either side even thinking about compromise. (Simply my humble opinion) But I won't generalize the situation or act as if I have knowledge of what either side faces every day.
I do see an overwhelming ignorance in many of the comments posted here. What kind of moron uses an Israeli based thread to bash US policy? Wait... why am I surprised? Anti-US idiots come by the truckload.
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)
Any moron can form an opinion based on media details.

[IDFM203]

I just want to stress before I repond that I am in full support of the U.S. and what it has done......

Trying to compare how Israel is handling the Palestinian terrorist threat to the US war in Iraq is completely idiotic. first of all where did this come in on this thread?!?

But since you brought it up I will say that it is not idiotic and I will just add Afghanistan to the mix.

Now what you have to understand is that perhaps now the difference evaporates a bit but that is because you have relatively destroyed the terrorist regimes and infrastructure and now are attempting the hearts and minds game.

Israel never got to act the way the U.S. did in destroying the regimes in a couple of months even though it had the military might to do so. If the U.S. acted in Afghanistan and in Iraq with the same amount of restraint as Israel has, the taliban and saddam would still be around.
The bottom line is that before the US. ever went about winning the hearts and minds, it first destroyed more infrastructure and killed much more people in that short period of time then Israel has done in the past 20 years. And it did all that with less vital security interests then what Israel has to face to its vital security.



Israel is wide open to criticism because they aren't attempting to win hearts and minds, first of all , giving away every Palestinian town and village to their control during the oslo years, is defiantly making that concrete effort.

Secondly he U.S. didn’t try to win hearts and minds till after the taliban and saddam were destroyed for before it couldnt for it was fighting the war.

The same with Israel. How do you expect me as a soldier to win hearts and minds when hamas and islaic jihad and the PLO or still functioning and trying to kill us no matter what we do or offer them.

Thirdly we do try as soldier to be as nice as we can considering the dangerous situation that we face on a day to day bases.


but rather are using strong arm tactics against Palestinian agression. believe me its no more then what you have used in your war on terror.


I personally think the Israeli tactics are absolutely wrong and don't see either side even thinking about compromise. well Israel has tried but it cant give over the farm so to speak when the other side is not ready for a sincere peace.


I do see an overwhelming ignorance in many of the comments posted here. What kind of moron uses an Israeli based thread to bash US policy? the same kind of moron that uses U.S. based threads to bash Israel!!



Wait... why am I surprised? Anti-US idiots come by the truckload. as do anti Israel ones.

Shalom :D

[WARPIG]

IDFM203 disects my post for the purpose of scrutiny. Can you imagine my surprise? :roll:

WARPIG wrote:
Trying to compare how Israel is handling the Palestinian terrorist threat to the US war in Iraq is completely idiotic.
first of all where did this come in on this thread?!? They way this thread has dragged US policy into the conversation about the Israeli bashing going on in Europe. Your response seems to support my assumption.

By the way.. since you find the need to generalize the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq... we have tried to win the hearts and minds before, during, and after both conflicts. Humanitarian missions have been running parallel to the combat missions. (Not in the news but then again.. feeding, clothing and giving medical aide isn't as sensational as Americans killing or being killed.

Here is a challenge for you.. instead of justifying Israeli actions by comparing them to US .. let them stand on their own? Although I may not like the way things are handled.. I don't know what really goes on there. Let the Israelis' actions stand on their own. If they are truly honorable.. critics will just sound rhetorical.. and the few of us that are uncomfortable with the handling of things there will simply have to take a closer look.
Here is another challenge.. instead of disecting my comments... try and garner what I am trying to say. I'll sum this one up for ya...
Israeli actions are bound to meet criticism and opposition. Generally speaking, tactics that appear as bullyish and extreme seem to negate all the terror tactics that come from Palestinian side. [/img]

[Mo]

I'm not even going to get involved in this one.....

[Sabre]

Too right. Had enough of this...

[IDFM203]

IDFM203 disects my post for the purpose of scrutiny. Can you imagine my surprise? :roll: hey buddy nothing personal there per say ;) , that’s just my style. When I respond to anyone I do it in a clear and concise way :D

Secondly as per your request before, I don’t dissect every word or statement for I have left out parts of your post.

And besides you do the same to me, we just do it in different syles.

WARPIG wrote:
Trying to compare how Israel is handling the Palestinian terrorist threat to the US war in Iraq is completely idiotic. /quotequote first of all where did this come in on this thread?!? /quoteThey way this thread has dragged US policy into the conversation about the Israeli bashing going on in Europe. Your response seems to support my assumption. yes I agree with your assumption about Europe and the U.S. bashers, I just didn’t understand how you brought up that Palestinian/Iraq comparison, which seemed to come out of the blue (and something that we discussed already on another thread)


By the way.. since you find the need to generalize the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq... first of all again I support the U.S. actions there.

Secondly for the sake of this limited conversation I responded with generalization just as you made your generalizations about the Israel/Palestinian conflict.


we have tried to win the hearts and minds before, during, and after both conflicts. Humanitarian missions have been running parallel to the combat missions. (Not in the news but then again.. feeding, clothing and giving medical aide isn't as sensational as Americans killing or being killed. yes exactly the same with Israel. I actually realised after my last post that I should have brought in what you just said but I just left the post as it was. But yes Israel has been doing the same for years.


Here is a challenge for you.. instead of justifying Israeli actions by comparing them to US .. let them stand on their own? ok a couple of responses to this.

First I have always let Israel’s actions stand on their own. I have done this way before the U.S. war on terror and after its war on terror. I almost never bring in the U.S. into this when I am justifying Israel actions. I only do that when I am talking to an American who most probably before sept 11 was critical of Israel on its own war on terror (which is critical to Israel’s vital security) but then after sept 11 supported the U.S. war on terror but yet somehow tries to rationalize or justify how what the U.S. did now is somewhat different.

Now to clarify. Of course they aren’t perfectly alike but the similarities are most defiantly eerily similar and to see one deny it is wrong!!!


Although I may not like the way things are handled.. I don't know what really goes on there. well you can’t say you don’t like how things are handled and then say you don’t really know what’s going on.

I mean I think this statement is pretty implicit enough for me to see a problem in your characterizations of the reality of what Israel has faced and done.


Let the Israelis' actions stand on their own. If they are truly honorable.. critics will just sound rhetorical.. the facts do stand on their own (and they are honourable especially with what Israel has had to face) although it is very naive to think that with a Jewish state, a lot of the world or going to listen to those facts. I mean that Europe poll just further proves that.


and the few of us that are uncomfortable with the handling of things there will simply have to take a closer look. I wish you did!!

oh and if you have any questions you can always ask here or PM and I will be glad to help.


Israeli actions are bound to meet criticism and opposition. true and I will just add no matter what it does…..


Generally speaking, tactics that appear as bullyish and extreme seem to negate all the terror tactics that come from Palestinian side. well you need to take a closer look for it is obvious that what you call the U.S. actions as not bullish but Israel as bullish when in fact Israel has used a lot more restraint then what the U.S. has done.


Since we are into challenges here.

I have a couple of my own.

I challenge you to perhaps take a closer look at the realties of what Israel has had to face for the past fifty years and how it is in fact acted with what I believe is more restraint then any other nation that would have if it were faced with the same types of realties that Israel has faced on a daily basis.

An I also challenge you to stop this moral high ground that you take with regards to the U.S. actions in its war on terror but yet criticize Israel for doing the same or even less.

Shalom :D

[WARPIG]

I'm with you guys.. I give up. :cantbeli:

[IDFM203]

I'm with you guys.. I give up. :cantbeli: what a mature response this was :cantbeli: :roll: :roll:

( I am surprised I actually thought for a second that YOU were interested in open dialogue and to have a better understanding...I guess not……oh well.............)

Anyway’s shalom to you :D

[StarvingStudent47]

I don't know, why don't you email US Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (http://campbell.senate.gov/) and ask him yourself?

ooOoO your so smart, you can search google.....LIKE I DID!

No google search necessary, because I grew up in Colorado, so Campbell was one of MY Senators. And I hadn't seen your response yet when I posted mine.

[usa320]

Haiw Wrote


http://members.home.nl/maritavandenheuvel/Haiw/babymiddelvinger.jpg

Is that the best you can do?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative7.jpg

[NcDeuce]

:roll:

Nuke 'em.

[Haiw]

Is that the best you can do?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative7.jpg
ever tried to put squeeze that in a decent avatar? :P

[Mr. Nielsen]

It's hard to compare the situation in Iraq with the situation in Israel/Palestine, as the latter is an issue of land.

The U.S has not laid claim to a single square meter of Iraq.

[IDFM203]

It's hard to compare the situation in Iraq with the situation in Israel/Palestine, as the latter is an issue of land.

The U.S has not laid claim to a single square meter of Iraq.Yes we are not talking about that.

No the comparison is valid in terms of the actual fighting and situation’s on the ground throughout the fighting in both nations war on terror.

But of course the difference in the potential outcomes of both are different indeed.

Secondly I want to stress that Afghanistan is a better example but yes Iraq is too.

Shalom :D

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

"European Union citizens ranked Israel as the most likely threat to world peace, with the US, Iran andNorth Korea tied for second, in an opinion poll sponsored by theEU´s executive arm. Some 59 percent of 7,515 respondents said Israel was athreat to peace, in the poll released by the European Commissionin "

Well I'd like to point out that many people in Europe think that the United States is just apart of the "axis of evil" as Iran and North Korea. I really wonder why syria hasnt made the list?

[Fargin]

I really wonder why syria hasnt made the list?

Wouldn't have mattered in the top three.

[Andyman]

I think that both Israel and Palestine are far to biased to solve anything. They are both equally illogical and they both believe that their side is right and the other side is wrong. They both believe that they are blessed by god and that god is on their side shaming their enemies. Funny how god is always placed on the forefront of conflict. Another thing I thinlk its great how to this day they bitch and complain about the whole thing.

Trying to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict is like trying to herd cats.

my three cents :|

[Haiw]

just read something in the paper about how screwed up the test was...
first of all, palestina wasnt even in the list, secondly, the question was 'which of the following countries do you consider as a thret to world peace'...which made it kind of a whicked enquete..... and i'm still wondering where they took it :roll:

[UoUo]

I think that both Israel and Palestine are far to biased to solve anything. They are both equally illogical and they both believe that their side is right and the other side is wrong. They both believe that they are blessed by god and that god is on their side shaming their enemies. Funny how god is always placed on the forefront of conflict. Another thing I thinlk its great how to this day they bitch and complain about the whole thing.

Trying to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict is like trying to herd cats.

my three cents :|

Funney that something like very large % of the jews in israel don't belive in god....the rest of them is beliving in god...but not doing any cind of laws that wright in the "tora"....

To say it simple....maybe 10% are realy realy commit all the laws of the tora....

BTW : you can say it exatctly about the iraqi - american conflict.

[StarvingStudent47]

I think that both Israel and Palestine are far to biased to solve anything. They are both equally illogical and they both believe that their side is right and the other side is wrong. They both believe that they are blessed by god and that god is on their side shaming their enemies. Funny how god is always placed on the forefront of conflict. Another thing I thinlk its great how to this day they bitch and complain about the whole thing.

Trying to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict is like trying to herd cats.

my three cents :|

Israel does not justify its actions through Holy War or God or anything like that. Israel maintains, and has always maintained, that its actions are motivated by NATIONAL SECURITY (against foreign invasion in previous decades; currently against organized terrorist campaigns). Only one side of the conflict uses the rhetoric of Holy War.

[Mortimer]

I saw a really funny episode of south park last night, and they made a really good point.

they have their adventure but "the thing they learnt that day" was that America can still go to war but 'act' like they don't want to....its called "having your cake...AND eating it"


so true
rofl rofl

[Haiw]

the one hundreth episode, season 7, episode 1 :lol:

[Mortimer]

lol yeh then they say "who cares about the war its our 100th episode!!"

southpark = the bomb

[James]

Morty,

Who is the someone you quoted in your signature? Just curious.

[Mortimer]

someone said it on a forum once and i thought it was cool.....its also true.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I think it might be articles like this one that convince Europeans that little old Israel could be a threat to world peace.

www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp

I think Israel can whup any country in the Middle East so why even think about costly nukes when no other country in the region has them.

[96B]

Im not really suprised by the tension between Israel and Europe because they have such a large muslim population that is continuously growing...

I'd back Israel over France any day ;)

[AirZone]

I think it might be articles like this one that convince Europeans that little old Israel could be a threat to world peace.

www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp

I think Israel can whup any country in the Middle East so why even think about costly nukes when no other country in the region has them.

because they wont mess with us if we have nukes ?

nuke=political weapon...

[marktigger]

Israel gets bad press in europe cause of the left of centre govts in power many of who still play student politics. When the israelis went into Gaza and the west bank a few years ago. Sein Fein came out in support of the poor opressed palistian peoples of teh occupied territories and put up Palistinian flags in nationalist areas of Belfast. Loyalist Areas started to display the Israeli flag.
On a BBC programme it was sugested that the British should send the Army and police from belfast to create a buffer zone. Some wag asked if this was happening could we borrow the Israeli Army and Police to Patrol west and North Belfast :) oh that would have been so nice....

[IDFM203]

I think it might be articles like this one that convince Europeans that little old Israel could be a threat to world peace.

www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp

I think Israel can whup any country in the Middle East so why even think about costly nukes when no other country in the region has them.
Boy your so out of touch with reality of the middle east to even pose this question

There is only one reason why Syria and other Arab countries have not attacked since 1973, and that’s because of Israel’s nuclear capabilities.

There is only one reason why Egypt signed their deal with Israel, again because of that nuclear option so they did the smart thing for them.

And on the same token, Israel has had this nuclear option now for thirty some years and yet hasn’t used it so what kind of threat to world peace are you or the euros blabbering about.
I mean not only did Europe stupidly put tiny Israel as a threat to world peace but also they put them on top.

but hey its Europe so I never expected any thing less from them.

Shalom :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

idfm203 I am well aware of how long Israel has had WMD's but by putting them on submarines you are extending your reach a little to far, other countries in the region may also want WMD's simply because Israel has them and Israel in turn will do everything it can to prevent them.
Israels actions in preventing other powers in the region gaining WMD's could spark conflict, then again it could be the very thing Israel wants, the spoils of war could be plentiful.

[IDFM203]

idfm203 I am well aware of how long Israel has had WMD's but by putting them on submarines you are extending your reach a little to far, no Israel’s adding another deterrent factor to those countries that might strike a potentially fatal first blow on to Israel whereas now they have to think twice about that for Israel now has a second strike capability.


Other countries in the region may also want WMD's simply because Israel has them other countries in that region have been trying for years to get that regardless if Israel has them or not

Only an utter fool about that region would come to a ridicules assumption that if Israel didn’t have them then other countries would not pursue them.
That’s simply absurd in the realties of the Middle Eastern countries and regimes.


and Israel in turn will do everything it can to prevent them. your damn right as any other nation would do when threatened by total annihilation that these weapons in these countries pose as that type of threat to tiny israel.

Its no coincidence that Iran named one of their long-range missiles the Jerusalem missile and all their military marches have the march on Jerusalem as their theme. And other types of rallies where that’s the clear aim.


Israels actions in preventing other powers in the region gaining WMD's could spark conflict, if Israel had not destroyed the osirak reactor in Iraq in 1981, there would have been the most devastating conflict known to man by the end of the 80’s after Iraq would have used it.

Israel will do what it takes to defend itself and these weapons in the hands of these nations that have vowed to destroy Israel, are a threat to its very existence.


then again it could be the very thing Israel wants, the spoils of war could be plentiful. that’s one of the most absurd comments coming from you. (I actually expected a little better from you, I guess I was wrong…..oh well.)

Israel has had plenty of chances to reap the spoils of war, I mean if Israel wanted that goal, it could have done it in the past thirty years. It would not wait till the arabs get nuclear weapon’s to do it. Your charge is simply absurd I cant believe I am even dignifying it a bit by answering it.

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

idfm203 I am well aware of how long Israel has had WMD's but by putting them on submarines you are extending your reach a little to far, no Israel’s adding another deterrent factor to those countries that might strike a potentially fatal first blow on to Israel whereas now they have to think twice about that for Israel now has a second strike capability.


Other countries in the region may also want WMD's simply because Israel has them other countries in that region have been trying for years to get that regardless if Israel has them or not

Only an utter fool about that region would come to a ridicules assumption that if Israel didn’t have them then other countries would not pursue them.
That’s simply absurd in the realties of the Middle Eastern countries and regimes.


and Israel in turn will do everything it can to prevent them. your damn right as any other nation would do when threatened by total annihilation that these weapons in these countries pose as that type of threat to tiny israel.

Its no coincidence that Iran named one of their long-range missiles the Jerusalem missile and all their military marches have the march on Jerusalem as their theme. And other types of rallies where that’s the clear aim.


Israels actions in preventing other powers in the region gaining WMD's could spark conflict, if Israel had not destroyed the osirak reactor in Iraq in 1981, there would have been the most devastating conflict known to man by the end of the 80’s after Iraq would have used it.

Israel will do what it takes to defend itself and these weapons in the hands of these nations that have vowed to destroy Israel, are a threat to its very existence.


then again it could be the very thing Israel wants, the spoils of war could be plentiful. that’s one of the most absurd comments coming from you. (I actually expected a little better from you, I guess I was wrong…..oh well.)

Israel has had plenty of chances to reap the spoils of war, I mean if Israel wanted that goal, it could have done it in the past thirty years. It would not wait till the arabs get nuclear weapon’s to do it. Your charge is simply absurd I cant believe I am even dignifying it a bit by answering it.

Shalom :D

IdFM203 pWn J00 @ll

[obd]

I must say that with regard to nuclear proliferation issues in the middle east, I could not possibly agree more with IDFm203. His arguments are logical and reasonable and seem to fit into the historical context of the Israeli-Arab conflict. Anybody who tries to portray Israel as an agressor nation trying to destabalize the area and putting everybody at risk and **** = take your head out of your ass!!!. Give me a break. Like Israeli nukes on subs really "ups the ante" at all on ther global stage. HELLO. With US, Chinese, French, British, Russian, etc nuclear sub capabilities, the fact that Israel has a couple is nothing, The very idea that people would complain about that while ignoring the "great powers" nuclear arms is absurd. Lets face it people: there is a direct relationship between Israels attainment of nuclear capability and the lack of further Arab attempts to annihilate them in conventional war. Nuclear weapons are really the only garauntee Israel has to protect itself. Here's how I see it. Israel is our ally, more than that they are our freind and we are their best freind in the world. They have been subject to almost constant assault since the creation of the Jewish state and to deny them a nuclear detterent force while accpepting other nations nuclear capability is not only hypicritical, its as if your saying they have no right to exist. Nuclear weapons have actually done more for peace and stability then anything else. Can you imagine the horros of an open conventional war between the US and Russia during the 1980's. Without nuclear weapons to deter both sides that would have been a likelyhood???

[obd]

And the idea that Israel's attempted prevention of dictator states with radical populations such as Syria is causing conflict is the biggest absurdity I have heard. JEEZUS H. CHRISEESTTTT!!!! The only thing that has prevented a large scale war is the nuclear disparity in the region, with Israel holding the nuclear advantage. Try this on for size: Israel has had a monopoly on nuclear weapons for how long?? 30 years?? HAve they used them (nope). Have they annihilated Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria?? Nope. Now imagine if Israel lacked nuclear weapons. Do you really think that Arabs would still have not attacked Israel again?? Now go farther...what if Syrai or Iraq had nukes and Israel didnt. IDFm203 wouldnt be here today if this had ever been the case!! Arabs have attempted a second holocaust numerous times and have not even tried to hide their true goals to wipe out Israel and "push the zionist Jewish pigs into the sea" so nobody better even try to tell me otherwise!!!!!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Fair enough reply idfm203 but you just cannot grasp the unease many of us feel over your possesion of nukes and Israel's pursuit of those of others in the region who desire them. Although the press has chose to make a fuss over the Harpoon supplied by America, my concern is the Popeye Turbo with the enhanced range and the Jericho 2B with a range of 1500km these weapons bring countries outwith your sphere of interest into range. The Shavit SLV could if deployed as a ballistic missile deliver a payload of 775kg to 4000km. As for my spoils of war comment it maybe was uncalled for but the Golan Heights which should have been a military buffer zone to protect your citizens has actually been settled this goes against good sense.No one would deny the right of Israel to self defence it is something you have proved adept at.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

obd Israel has kicked the ass of everyone in the area that has taken it on, the reason that the Israeli people have not been pushed into the sea is that they do not want their ass kicked again. Israel is the leader in modern conventional weapon technology in the region I really do not think Syria is going to try anything.

[IDFM203]

Fair enough reply idfm203 but you just cannot grasp the unease many of us feel over your possesion of nukes no believe me I grasp your or europes absurd “uneasiness” :roll:

That’s one of the major problems. You’re not at ease about Israel's nuclear weapons when they haven’t used them for over thirty years or ever :roll:

Your not at ease about Israel’s nuclear deterrent which has actually prevented an all out war since 1973 from happening :roll:

Your not at ease about Israel’s nuclear deterrent which was why Egypt decided to make a “peace” deal with Israel :roll:

Yes its your absurd uneasiness that actually unease’s me!!!!

But again its Europe we are talking about so again I didnt expect anything less…….. :roll: :roll:


and israel’s pursuit of those of others in the region who desire them. so you don’t understand why Israel would want to prevent other nations that have for years vowed to destroy the nation of Israel by any means and have worked at it constantly to achieve that goal, yes its your lack of apparent concern for Israel’s vital security that is the real uneasiness!!


Although the press has chose to make a fuss over the Harpoon supplied by America, my concern is the Popeye Turbo with the enhanced range and the Jericho 2B with a range of 1500km these weapons bring countries outwith your sphere of interest into range. The Shavit SLV could if deployed as a ballistic missile deliver a payload of 775kg to 4000km. Israel has had those for years now. It has not used it.

It is simply absurd to insinuate that Israel is going to strike Europe or something like that….

secondly as for the shavit, Israel launched a satellite into space. What we aren’t allowed that capability?!?

You Europeans seriously need to get off your high horse here, for you have much more then what Israel has with much less danger to your vital security at stake!!!!

I have a news flash for you. But Israel’s enemies that have vowed to destroy Israel are not only those in the few kilometres from Israel but are also much further as well.



As for my spoils of war comment it maybe was uncalled for
your damn right it wasnt called for, but its come to what I expect now :|


but the Golan Heights which should have been a military buffer zone to protect your citizens has actually been settled this goes against good sense. it is a military buffer.

At the same time why shouldn’t it be settled???

How does it go against good sense???


No one would deny the right of Israel to self defence it is something you have proved adept at. yes but a major part of Israel’s self defence is its awesome deterrent factor and by you trying to mitigate that is in essence denying Israel’s right to exist.

Shalom :D

[StarvingStudent47]

I think it might be articles like this one that convince Europeans that little old Israel could be a threat to world peace.

www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_11/Israel.asp

I think Israel can whup any country in the Middle East so why even think about costly nukes when no other country in the region has them.

How about because they're outnumbered 15 to 1 if the Arab states decide to fight together (it's happened several times before)? Superior training and motivation can only overcome so much. Superior technology is also needed when you're fighting vastly superior numbers.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

There is only one reason why Syria and other Arab countries have not attacked since 1973, and that’s because of Israel’s nuclear capabilities.

There is only one reason why Egypt signed their deal with Israel, again because of that nuclear option so they did the smart thing for them.



The Arabs think Israel have nuclear capabilities. Maybe we have. Maybe we don't. Let them sweat out in order to find out...

Not need to mention that even if we comparing only conventional capbilities (i.e.: tanks, airforce, navy, infantry, dozers) - Israel is superior on the other Arab armies.

And yes - the European media (notebly BBC, The Guardian, France2 TV) is very biased against Israel and shape a very anti-Israeli public opinion, although the EU start to concern about the mutual hatred between Israel and Europe and try to fix it (the credit goes for Italy woot ).

[IDFM203]

There is only one reason why Syria and other Arab countries have not attacked since 1973, and that’s because of Israel’s nuclear capabilities.

There is only one reason why Egypt signed their deal with Israel, again because of that nuclear option so they did the smart thing for them.



The Arabs think Israel have nuclear capabilities. Maybe we have. Maybe we don't. Let them sweat out in order to find out...

Not need to mention that even if we comparing only conventional capbilities (i.e.: tanks, airforce, navy, infantry, dozers) - Israel is superior on the other Arab armies.

And yes - the European media (notebly BBC, The Guardian, France2 TV) is very biased against Israel and shape a very anti-Israeli public opinion, although the EU start to concern about the mutual hatred between Israel and Europe and try to fix it (the credit goes for Italy woot ).

no I get you about the nuclear wepons. all I am saying is what is public speculation.

shalom :D

[fantassin]

France provided the nuke to Israel in the 60s...pretty funny to see France is being accused of being anti-semitic today...where would Israel be without the Mirage III, the Alouette, the AMX13, the Sherman M50, the BF50 155 howitzer, the SP howitzer delivered in the 50s and 60s, the fast boats, the Super Frelon helos...and anti-semitic while there are over 600 000 jews in France, the most important jewish community in Western Europe what a joke ! if they felt so threatened, they would have left long ago, to Israel for example...

[IDFM203]

France provided the nuke to Israel in the 60s...pretty funny to see France is being accused of being anti-semitic today...where would Israel be without the Mirage III, the Alouette, the AMX13, the Sherman M50, the BF50 155 howitzer, the SP howitzer delivered in the 50s and 60s, the fast boats, the Super Frelon helos.. ... yes indeed France was a big supporter of Israel. But that was all before 1967!! After that they switched over to the arabs and their own oil interests. Since 1967, France has not been a supporter of Israel at all and has in fact very hostile towards it.

As for nuke. France helped with the dimno reactor but that was it (and when France was helping Israel, Israeli scientist’s were also helping the French with their knowledge as well.). Everything afterwards was Israel’s own scientists and their own expertise that gave Israel its awesome nuclear deterrent.


.and anti-semitic while there are over 600 000 jews in France, the most important jewish community in Western Europe what a joke ! if they felt so threatened, they would have left long ago, to Israel for example... first of all many are leaving. That 600 thousand is not stationary but it is changing.

Secondly France is anti Semitic. I know many France people (including my ex girlfriend) and they tell me the situation in France now is terrible. There is a large Muslim population and along with a lot of French people who share their hostility, they are making the Jews feel very uneasy to say the least Synagogues have been been burnt. Jews are being attacked. And there are many more such incidents.

Thirdly, a lot of Jews do in fact want to leave but it is very hard for one who has lived all his life in a country to simply pack up and leave. The fact is that France is very hostile to Jewish people but as of now it is not on a nazi level (circu 1930’s) so the Jews put up with it but if it were to get to that level, which it is not far from now, I guarantee you that you will see many more Jews leaving.

Shalom :D

[fantassin]

Yes you are right; keep on watching CNN and Fox News and believe that it's kristal nacht every evening in France, this way you will keep your belief firmly in place.

As for Jews moving...we have more coming back to France than going to Israel at the moment. I suppose the threat of "French anti semitism" is less than the threat of being blown to bits by the Palestinians.

As for violences...what about the Betar extrem-right Jewish students, trained in Krav Maga at the Israeli embassy in Paris who regularly raid Paris universities and beat-up the students who don't agree with them? pre-emptive strike I suppose?

[IDFM203]

Yes you are right; keep on watching CNN and Fox News and believe that it's kristal nacht every evening in France, this way you will keep your belief firmly in place. where did this retarded statement come from??? :roll: :roll: Did I say I made my opinion on cnn and fox news?? Did I say its kristal nacht type of situation in France now??? No I didn’t!! go back and read what I wrote.

I said” Secondly France is anti Semitic. I know many France people (including my ex girlfriend) and they tell me the situation in France now is terrible. There is a large Muslim population and along with a lot of French people who share their hostility, they are making the Jews feel very uneasy to say the least Synagogues have been been burnt. Jews are being attacked. And there are many more such incidents.

Thirdly, a lot of Jews do in fact want to leave but it is very hard for one who has lived all his life in a country to simply pack up and leave. The fact is that France is very hostile to Jewish people but as of now it is not on a nazi level (circu 1930’s) so the Jews put up with it but if it were to get to that level, which it is not far from now, I guarantee you that you will see many more Jews leaving.

Geez I couldnt have been more clear as to where I got my information from and to how bad I thought the actual situation is.


As for Jews moving...we have more coming back to France than going to Israel at the moment. I suppose the threat of "French anti semitism" is less than the threat of being blown to bits by the Palestinians. oh and where did you get this made up fact from???? Yes there are Israeli that are leaving Israel but they sure as hell are not going to France. I mean why would an Israeli want to leave the middle east only to move to another country where it feels like the middle east (as France does now…you know damn well what I mean by that)???

the fact is that many jews are going leaving france!!


As for violences...what about the Betar extrem-right Jewish students, trained in Krav Maga at the Israeli embassy in Paris who regularly raid Paris universities and beat-up the students who don't agree with them? pre-emptive strike I suppose? wow that’s such a ridicules statement. A, those beter Jews are tiny compared to the French extremists and the French Muslims that are terrorizing the Jews.

Secondly, please provide proof as to “regually” for that is one of the biggest exaggerations I have seen on this forum.

Thirdly, a lot of Jews in those universities are being attacked so it seems to me that if a Jew responded you call them betar extremists attacking. But anyways there have been very few cases of Jewish attacks.

There have been much more attacks on Jews, there have been Jewish synagogues and bakeries that have been burnt down. Anti Semitic insults are rampant in france if one is a visible Jew.

To try to equate a few alleged Jewish incidents with the many anti Jewish ones is preposterous.

Shalom :D

[fantassin]

Why bother...it's a useless discussion in which you'll end up telling me I am an anti-semitic pig anyway. It's a caricature.

I won't try to change your views, no hope.

[IDFM203]

Why bother...it's a useless discussion in which you'll end up telling me I am an anti-semitic pig anyway. It's a caricature.

I won't try to change your views, no hope. Why do you simply revert to that ridicules tactic?!? :roll: It’s a ridicules tactic that I have seen before. It so typical to simply spew your garbage and then claim that it’s pointless for you claim that I will do that. I have not called you that nor would I. I have been “assaulted” much worse on the net and I, except one case, have never reverted to that anti Semitic charge. (That one case was so obvious after the person asked “if only Hitler had finished the job) regardless of what I believe about you, I don’t make that claim, for its hard to prove. If you notice or a lot of the members can testify to, I always responded with reasoned point by point responses. If that’s too much to handle than you’re right, it is pointless for you to be here.

As for changing views. I guess the same is for me about changing yours. though it doesnt hurt to try........

shalom :D

[fantassin]

Final word; good luck with the Arabs; we've tried for 130 years but there is no competing with Arabic wombs churning out 8 to 12 kids before they reach the age of 40. Even your zealots can't compete...

I'd much rather see Israel win than the Arabs but I can't see it happening.

Sorry but Israel will be a goner in less than a century and it'll bring me no joy because it could mean:

1-Europe is next on the list
2-It has nuked its neighbours and we'll be breathing the fumes
3-It's using its nukes to blackmail its European or american "friends" in order to find a place to fall back on and it could tuurn ugly.

Whatever happens, good luck; if you find a solution to the Arabs, feel free to post it, we have 6 millions waiting for a solution.

[IDFM203]

Wow a rather interesting post here. Through all your initial huffing and puffing here on this forum in your first day!! (Gee I hope you had time to catch your breath in between your non stop “assault”), you actually seem like one that can be talked to as opposed to simply spewing out retarded phrases and label’s that you hear all day in your leftists (for lack of a better term) media’s


Final word; good luck with the Arabs; we've tried for 130 years but there is no competing with Arabic wombs churning out 8 to 12 kids before they reach the age of 40. Even your zealots can't compete... your actually right here although in Israel’s case a numerical disadvantage has not meant doom for Israel. It has always been at this disadvantage and it has survived pretty strong.


I'd much rather see Israel win than the Arabs but I can't see it happening. I rather see both have peace but if it’s that reality, then I say amen to your wish!!!


Sorry but Israel will be a goner in less than a century and it'll bring me no joy because it could mean: well if Israel makes more suicidal polices like Oslo (where it was a illusion of a process), then perhaps but other then that I don’t think so.


1-Europe is next on the list true if that happens.

Secondly regardless, Europe and especially France is already on that list. I mean chiroc is trying his best to be an appeaser to the arabs to prevent that but believe me its pointless for no matter what they do, it wont save France ;)


2-It has nuked its neighbours and we'll be breathing the fumes that would be a terrible scenario, but I think if something like that happens, those horrors wont be confined to the middle east. There is too much geopolitical involvement from around the world to ensure that if the Middle East goes up so does the world.


3-It's using its nukes to blackmail its European or american "friends" in order to find a place to fall back on and it could tuurn ugly. first of all, what European friends?? Second of all. Please explain this scenario…………




Whatever happens, good luck; if you find a solution to the Arabs, feel free to post it, we have 6 millions waiting for a solution. again please explain this statement.

Shalom.

[Adri]

idfm203: what means "Shalom" ???

back to topic:
I don't agree on the Israel is the largest threat to the world, but it sure aint a peacefull situation down there....
I know that there is a lot of people in europe how thinks that Israel and the Jews are a threat to the world and speaks loud about it...but they are not the hole europe, and how many people was this poll ask to ?
by the way, I can't understand why France is "flamed" by Americans and Israelis...they are against your politic....but I am sure the hoblahoblahoblastikstan allso are against it....does it realy mater ?

[Joshisonfire]

wow 11 pages already...is there no end to this?

[StarvingStudent47]

idfm203: what means "Shalom" ???
Shalom means "peace" in Hebrew (the Arabic equivalent is "Salaam", I think). It's sometimes used as an equivalent of "hello" or "goodbye."

[qoute]back to topic:
I don't agree on the Israel is the largest threat to the world, but it sure aint a peacefull situation down there....[/quote]
There's a big difference between participating in violence and being at fault for the violence. No one contests that there is a lot of fighting going on. But this poll places the BLAME for that violence squarely on Israel. It says that Israel is the INSTIGATOR. And this is what so many Israelis and Americans object to.


I know that there is a lot of people in europe how thinks that Israel and the Jews are a threat to the world and speaks loud about it...but they are not the hole europe, and how many people was this poll ask to ?
Not sure how many it was addressed to, but I've seen very little sympathy from Europeans for Israel's security or the terrible human cost of Palestinian terrorism. I would love it if you could prove me wrong. Seriously. But I haven't seen proof.[/quote]

[duck]

Is it true that Medina was a centre of the jewish faith long before Jerusalem? I was told this by an azerbaidzhani today...

[StarvingStudent47]

Is it true that Medina was a centre of the jewish faith long before Jerusalem? I was told this by an azerbaidzhani today...

No. That's not true.

Perhaps he meant that Medina was the birthplace of Muhammad. Perhaps he meant to say that Medina and Mecca are the "center" of ISLAM, even though the BBC and friends sometimes imply that Jerusalem is. Medina was a ordinary oasis town, frequented only by merchants, until Muhammad put it on the map.

[hahaha]

What is a "jew" ? Is it a term used for nationality or a term used to describe what religion you are ?
Is it possible to be an israeli and not a jew ?
Is israel referred to as a country or as a state ?

[StarvingStudent47]

What is a "jew" ? Is it a term used for nationality or a term used to describe what religion you are ?
"Jew" can either refer to ethnicity or religion. The vast majority of Jews are both religiously and ethnically Jewish, but there are some exceptions. If someone is of a Jewish heritage (Jewish heritage is traced down the mother's line), they are ethnically Jewish. In other words, they're "Jewish" instead of "Dutch" or "Kurdish." If someone practices the religion known as "Judaism," they are religiously Jewish. In other words, they're "Jewish" instead of "Hindu" or "Baptist."

If you have someone named "Joseph Goldstein" whose mother was Jewish, but he's a Buddhist or atheist, then he is ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish.

If someone of German Lutheran descent were to convert to Judaism (say, they married a Jew and agreed to convert), they would be religiously Jewish but not ethnically Jewish. Conversions are rare, though, because Judaism is not an evangelical religion--Jews are not told to go out and win converts like many Christians and Muslims are told to. The marriage scenario is the only common reason for conversion to Judaism that I've heard of.

I know a couple people who have tried to end this confusion by using the term "Judaism" to refer specifically to the religion and "Hebrew" to refer to the ethnicity, but this never caught on.


Is it possible to be an israeli and not a jew ?
Yes, roughly 20% of Israeli citizens are non-Jews. Most of that 20% are either Arab Christians or Arab Muslims. They have full equal rights under Israeli law, though Israeli Arabs are not subject to mandatory military service like other Israelis are. They can join the military if they choose to, though.


Is israel referred to as a country or as a state ?
State. I'm not sure if there is any real difference between a "state" and a "country," but Israel is traditionally referred to as "the state of Israel."

[hahaha]

Thank you StarvingStudent47.

I have said some pretty fuct **** about the jews, mainly because I really don't know anything about them or know what it is like to be a jew. I have always supported the palestinians and terrorist organisations (sorry, but I call them freedom fighters - I know I will be flamed but I couldn't care less fags..), mainly because I saw these people as the 'little guys' who were being oppressed.

StarvingStudent47, are you jewish ? (ethnic or religion ? )

[wholagun]

If you Israelis hate Europe (European Union) so much then why want to join it, and apply for membership, to mock it?


Israel wants full EU membership

By Zia Iqbal Shahid

BRUSSELS: Tel Aviv has sent several signals to the European Union conveying that Israel wants full EU membership.

Israeli government has officially told the EU that Israel is expediting its endeavours to resolve all its outstanding disputes with its neighbouring states which is a pre-requisite under the EU rules for acceptance of any country's candidature, a reliable source in Brussels told the News.

The European Union is faced with a new dilemma of handling the fresh diplomatic initiative by Israel seeking a full EU membership with the support of the current EU presidency, while other major EU member states remain divided on the issue.

The European Union was first startled when Israeli Foreign Minister Silver Shalom recently told an EU delegation in Washington that his government was weighing an application to join the EU. The foreign minister was quoted as saying: "possibility, in principle, exists for Israel to join the EU since Israel and Europe share similar economies and democratic values."

Italy holds the current EU presidency. Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi supports Israel's inclusion in the EU, and his views on this issue have triggered another crucial debate at the European Union. "My country insists on the vision of expanded Europe that will include Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Moldavia, the Ukraine, Russia, Belorussia and, of course, Israel. If Europe wants to compete with the United States, it must find a way to speak in one voice," the prime minister was quoted as saying.

Germany is the first to express deep reservations over the new EU presidency's propensity to support the campaign launched by Israel asking for a full membership of the EU. Germany has reacted coolly to the calls by the Italian prime minister to include Israel, Russia and Ukraine as new members in the European Union.

Despite very close relations with Israel and Russia, Germany is publicly opposing the move aimed at granting EU membership to these countries.

"There are no plans to include these countries into the European Union," German Foreign Ministry spokesman Walter Lindner said in a briefing.

The supporters of Israel's inclusion in the European Union argue that there should be no trepidation in accepting Israel's candidature for the EU, as Turkey, a strategic Middle East player and an Islamic country, has already been officially accepted as a candidate for the EU.

Knowing that under the prevalent EU rules, a country in dispute with its neighbours is not entitled to apply for candidature of the European Union, Israel's sympathisers in the EU are advising the government of Ariel Sharon to keep on expediting official efforts to implement the Middle East "roadmap" besides achieving peace with Syria and Jordan. Israel has already concluded peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.

The European Union is a major actor in the Middle East, playing a vital role as a member of the "Quartet" of the United States, EU, Russia and the United Nations that have jointly drawn up the roadmap to settle the Middle East crisis.


http://www.worthynews.com/zone.cgi?http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2003-daily/07-07-2003/main/main17.htm

I gotta admit I can see it on April fools day, but any other day makes you wanna wonder.

[StarvingStudent47]

StarvingStudent47, are you jewish ? (ethnic or religion ? )
I am ethnically Jewish, and religiously "agnostic with strong leanings toward Judaism." May I ask about your ethnicity and religion?


I have said some pretty fuct **** about the jews, mainly because I really don't know anything about them or know what it is like to be a jew. I have always supported the palestinians and terrorist organisations (sorry, but I call them freedom fighters - I know I will be flamed but I couldn't care less fags..), mainly because I saw these people as the 'little guys' who were being oppressed.

That's unfortunate that you have chosen to judge the entire Jewish people before even bothering to learn about our history, or culture, or the details of current events regarding Jews. I hope that you will be more open-minded in the future. EDIT--after seeing some of your comments in the photo section of this site, I sincerely hope you are willing to give up your virulent hatred of Jews and at least try to have a slightly open mind. I hope that's not too much to ask.

The following is a long rant. If you don't have the time or desire to read it all, please at least read "the main point" at the bottom.

The Palestinian people are oppressed, but they are oppressed by their own tyrannical leadership more than anyone else. Yassir Arafat has stolen nearly $1 BILLION from his own people. International economic aid to the Palestinians is all taken by the terrorist groups, who use it to buy RPGs instead of to build infrastructure. Those terrorist groups also run the schools, who indoctrinate people with radical Islamic beliefs but do not teach them any marketable job skills.

Other Arab states help fund these terrorists. Tons of money is flowing to the Palestinian population--remember that Arabs control the vast majority of the world's oil! That's a LOT of money! Israel has NO oil, remember. Anyway, the other Arab governments support these terrorists, because so long as your average Arab on the street wants to "destroy the Zionist entity," they are not considering revolt against their own tyrannical governments. If it weren't for the "convenient distraction" of the fight against Israel, I think we'd see open revolution in Syria and Saudi Arabia.

The Soviets supplied the Arab armies with weapons--and they gave them much more military equipment than the USA gave Israel. Contrary to common belief, Israel has not always had the technological upper hand. They really only gained it since the decline and collapse of the USSR.

And of course, it's worth pointing out that Arabs outnumber Israelis 15 to 1. That always effects the "big guy/little guy" relationship, doesn't it?

For these reasons, I think that your assessment that Palestinians are the "little guy" being beat up by the "big guy" Israel is completely incorrect.

Now that I've given you reasons to "not hate Israel," let me try and give you a couple reasons to "like Israel"--and not just the normal stuff you hear about the Israeli military being badass.
*Israel has by far the best women's rights in the Middle East. It was the second country on the planet to have a female Prime Minister (India was first). While women in Saudi Arabia are beaten for showing their bare hand in public, women in Israel occupy every corner of government and many parts of the military.
*Israel offers complete legal equality to its citizens, including Arab Muslims. Arab Muslims even hold seats in Israel's Parliament. To my knowledge, not a single Arab state even offers Jews the right to vote, not to mention hold public office.
*Israel is a politically pluralistic society. You have moderates, hippies, right-wingers, the whole shebang. Israeli politics are just like the USA, where we all yell at each other, accuse each other of being traitors, and then go to the polls, vote, and live by the results. There has NEVER been a military coup in Israel. On the other hand, no Arab state even has a functioning democratic system, and they are troubled by coups.
*Israel tries to "win hearts and minds" by distributing food and medical aid to the Palestinians. During incursions, Israeli medics treat wounded Palestinians and wounded Israelis alike (just like how American medics treat wounded Iraqi fighters). No Arab state has ever made a similar gesture of kindness to Israel.
*Every corner of Israeli society wants peaceful coexistence with Arabs. Even the most ardent Zionist knows that, as a simple matter of geography, Israel will ALWAYS be surrounded by Arab states. Every Israeli wants Israel to live side-by-side in peace with Arab states--they just disagree about how to get there. On the other hand, most Arabs reject Israel's right to exist at all, with any borders. Israelis ask "how do we achieve coexistence" and bicker about the details; Arabs ask "should we have coexistence," and most say "no."

The main point:

I care about the Palestinian people just like you do. But supporting the terrorists is NOT a way to save the Palestinian people. It actually makes their lives WORSE! You may as well be saying "I care about the average Joes in Kabul, Afghanistan, so I'm going to support the Taliban and al-Qaeda and hate America." Destroying Israel will not "save" the Palestinian people, just like destroying the USA would not save the people of Afghanistan.

When you support Palestinian terrorist groups, you are hurting the Palestinian people and aiding brutal Arab dictators. Even if you don't care about Israelis, think about that.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

[quote=hahaha]What is a "jew" ? Is it a term used for nationality or a term used to describe what religion you are ?
"Jew" can either refer to ethnicity or religion. The vast majority of Jews are both religiously and ethnically Jewish, but there are some exceptions. If someone is of a Jewish heritage (Jewish heritage is traced down the mother's line), they are ethnically Jewish. In other words, they're "Jewish" instead of "Dutch" or "Kurdish." If someone practices the religion known as "Judaism," they are religiously Jewish. In other words, they're "Jewish" instead of "Hindu" or "Baptist."

If you have someone named "Joseph Goldstein" whose mother was Jewish, but he's a Buddhist or atheist, then he is ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish.

If someone of German Lutheran descent were to convert to Judaism (say, they married a Jew and agreed to convert), they would be religiously Jewish but not ethnically Jewish. Conversions are rare, though, because Judaism is not an evangelical religion--Jews are not told to go out and win converts like many Christians and Muslims are told to. The marriage scenario is the only common reason for conversion to Judaism that I've heard of.

I know a couple people who have tried to end this confusion by using the term "Judaism" to refer specifically to the religion and "Hebrew" to refer to the ethnicity, but this never caught on.

........................................................

I've always wondered about the term "Jewish" being ethnic vs. religious. The state of Israel wasn't created until, what 1946 or so? A citizen of Israel is an Israeli - not necessarily Jewish. The religion of one's parent's doesn't dictate the ethnicity of a child, does it? I mean if 2 Asians converted to Judaism, and had a child, and the kid is asked what ethnic group they're from, they can hardly answer "Jewish"?

People have been living on that little strip of land for thousands of years. It's changed hands countless times. Ethnic groups have interbred (the young tend to be preoccupied with the private parts of the opposite ***, not necessarily their theology)...so by now who's to say who is what?

Kind of like the way fans root for their favorite football team - despite the fact that the players/coaches/home fields constantly change and only the uniform stays constant. Just an observation - I can't think of any other religion/nationality that gets so convoluted :|

[duck]

StarvingStudent, I found this on http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com :

MEDINA:
By : Joseph Jacobs Mary W. Montgomery

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Jewish Tribes at Medina.
Mohammed's Attitude Toward Jews of Medina.
Mohammed Attacks Jews.
Fate of Medina Jews.



Second sacred city of Islam; situated in the Hijaz in Arabia, about 250 miles north of Mecca. It is celebrated as the place to which the Hegira (Mohammed's flight from Mecca) was directed, and as the capital and burial-place of Mohammed. According to Arabic tradition, Yathrib and the Hijaz were originally peopled with Amalekites, who were displaced by the Israelites. There are different accounts as to when this displacement was effected: some say that it occurred under Moses (comp. "Kitab al-Aghani," iv. 263); some, under Joshua; and some, under David, who it is stated resided in the Hijaz during Absalom's rebellion.

Jews may have settled in the Hijaz after the sack of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar; and it is probable that they came in successive colonies, e.g., after Pompey's attack upon Judea (64 B.C.), after Titus' conquest of Jerusalem (70 C.E.), and again after Hadrian's persecution of the Jews (in 136 C.E.; see Arabia).

Jewish Tribes at Medina.

The Jews had a very rich and flourishing settlement at Yathrib and built strongholds in the city and vicinity. The principal families were the Banu Ḳainuḳa', the Banu Ḳuraiẓa, and the Banu al-Naḍir. The latter two were known as the "Al-Kahinan," because they traced their descent from Aaron. In the fourth century Arab tribes from Yemen began to encroach upon the Jews in Medina. They were divided into two clans, the Banu Aus andthe Banu Khazraj. By calling in outside assistance and treacherously massacring at a banquet the principal Jews, these Arab clans finally gained the upper hand at Medina toward the end of the fifth century (for date see "J. Q. R." vii. 175, note). From this time the Jews retired into the background for about a century. About four or five years before the Hegira the Jews took an active part in the battle of Bu'ath between the Banu Aus and the Banu Khazraj. The Banu Naḍir and the Banu Ḳuraiẓa fought with the Banu Aus, while the Banu Ḳainuḳa' were allied with the Banu Khazraj. The latter were defeated after a long and desperate battle.

Mohammed's Attitude Toward Jews of Medina.

It is probable that the presence of Jews in Medina did much to prepare the way for Mohammed's teaching. When the prophet first went to Medina he was inclined to be friendly toward the Jews. They were included in the treaty between him and the inhabitants of Medina. He also made certain concessions to them on the ground of religion, and adopted their ḳiblah—Jerusalem—in the hope of winning them to his cause. They, however, ridiculed him, and delighted in drawing him into arguments to expose his ignorance; so that his conciliatory attitude was soon changed to enmity. A few Jews were converted to Islam, among them Abdallah ibn Salam, whom Mohammed called the "servant of God," and of whose conversion the prophet made much.

Mohammed Attacks Jews.

Finally Mohammed began to use actual violence toward the Medina Jews. After the battle of Bedr a woman called Asma, said by some to be a Jewess, wrote satirical verses, and was killed in her sleep, probably with Mohammed's consent. Not long before, Abu 'Afak of the Banu Amr, who had been converted to Judaism, had been assassinated for having displeased Mohammed by writing verses ridiculing the new religion. Mohammed then seems to have decided to get rid of the Jews in a body, since they were a constant menace to his cause. He began with the Banu Ḳainuḳa', who were goldsmiths, and lived by themselves in a fortified suburb. He first summoned them to accept his religion, and they refused. Soon a pretext was found for an open attack. A Moslem girl was insulted by a Jew of the Banu Ḳainuḳa'; the Jew was killed by a Moslem, and the latter in turn was killed by the brothers of the murdered Jew. Mohammed immediately marched against the Banu Ḳainuḳa' and besieged them in their stronghold. After a siege of fifteen days they surrendered, and their lives were spared only at the urgent request of Abdallah ibn Ubai, the influential leader of the Arab opposition, whose pleading Mohammed dared not ignore. Being allowed to leave the country, they emigrated toward the north. Their departure weakened the Jews, who if they had been united might have withstood Mohammed's attacks.

About a month after the emigration of the Ḳainuḳa', Abu Sufyan, the leader of the Meccan opposition, visited Ḥuyayy of the Banu al-Naḍir, but, being refused admittance by him, spent the night with another influential man of the same tribe and obtained information from him concerning the state of Medina. Another Jewish poet was assassinated about this time at Mohammed's desire. This was Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf of the Banu Naḍir, who had been stirring up the Ḳuraish at Mecca by his verses after the battle of Bedr. Ibn Sanina, a Jewish merchant, was killed on the day after Ka'b; and the Jews now began to fear to leave their houses. In the summer of 625 Mohammed attacked and besieged the Banu al-Naḍir. There appears to have been no satisfactory pretext for the attack. Mohammed claimed that he had received a revelation telling him of the treachery of the Jews. After a siege of fifteen or twenty days Abdallah ibn Ubai prevailed on the Naḍir to surrender. They were exiled, being allowed to take their goods with them, and emigrated toward the north, settling in Khaibar and in Syria.

Fate of Medina Jews.

There were now left only the Banu Ḳuraiẓa, and Mohammed soon found a pretext to attack them. Some of the Jewish exiles, chief among them being the above-mentioned Ḥuyayy, had stirred up the Ḳuraish and other Arab tribes against Mohammed, and they persuaded the Banu Ḳuraiẓa to join them in their plans. Mohammed, however, succeeded in making the Jews and their Arab allies suspicious of each other; and the allies, who had been besieging Medina, suddenly departed in the midst of a storm, thus leaving the Ḳuraiẓa unsupported. Mohammed marched against them, claiming to have received a special revelation to that effect, and laid siege to their fortress, which was a few miles to the southeast of the city. They surrendered after a month's siege, without having risked a fight. Their fate was left to the decision of Sa'd ibn Mu'adh of the tribe of Aus, who, in spite of the pleading of his own tribe, condemned the men to death and the women and children to slavery. The sentence was executed; and 750 Jews were killed in cold blood. Ḥuyayy was the last to die, with his last breath denouncing Mohammed as an impostor. The prophet wished to make a beautiful woman of the tribe, by the name of Riḥanah, his wife, but, tradition says, she preferred to be his slave instead. Thus the last of the powerful Jewish tribes in Medina was destroyed. Neither Mohammed, however, nor his successor drove all the Jews out of the country. That extreme measure was taken by Omar, who claimed to have heard the prophet say that all Jews should be exiled. Medina is one of the Moslem cities that neither Jews nor Christians may enter. See Banu Ḳainuḳa'; Banu Ḳuraiẓa; Banu al-Naḍir.

Bibliography: Caussin de Perceval, Essai sur l'Histoire des Arabes, passim;
Grätz, Gesch. iv. 66, 75 et seq., 81-83;
Hirschfeld, Essai sur l'Histoire des Juifs de Médine, in R. E. J. vii. 167 et seq., x. 10 et seq.J. M. W. M.

[StarvingStudent47]

Duck--

1) "The Jewish Encyclopedia" was written by non-Jews in the years 1901-1906. They were inspecting "the Jewish people" the way Steve Irwin inspects a rare amphibian. Frankly, I find its attitude very paternalistic and distasteful. And 100-year-old "scholarship" is generally not the most accurate source.

2) Your article does not refute my point. Even if this article was wholly accurate (which I question), all it says is that Yathrib/Medina was a merchant town that was largely Jewish. Nowhere does it say that Medina was any sort of center of Jewish culture. Here's an analogy: The town of Medford, Massachussetts, USA is heavily Italian in descent. Italians ARE important to Medford. But Medford IS NOT important to the Italian people as a whole. See the difference?

[hahaha]

@ StarvingStudent47

My mother is Yugoslavian (born in Belgrade) and my father is Croatian (born in Zagreb), all live in Australia. Not religious in anyway.

I have read all your post and it's not too much to ask for me to have an open mind. Suppose that's why I wanted to know the difference. I have no right to put you or your religion down when I know nothing about it.

You have given me things to ponder over, Thank you.

[StarvingStudent47]

I've always wondered about the term "Jewish" being ethnic vs. religious. The state of Israel wasn't created until, what 1946 or so? A citizen of Israel is an Israeli - not necessarily Jewish. The religion of one's parent's doesn't dictate the ethnicity of a child, does it? I mean if 2 Asians converted to Judaism, and had a child, and the kid is asked what ethnic group they're from, they can hardly answer "Jewish"?
1) The state of Israel was born in 1948. What does that have to do with anything?

2) Not all Israelis are Jews (they can be Arab-Israelis, Druze-Israelis, etc), and not all Jews are Israelis (they can be American Jews, Turkish Jews, French Jews, etc). What does that have to do with anything?

3) The religion of one's parents does not dictate the ethnicity of the child. The ethnicity of the parents dictates the ethnicity of the child. In the hypothetical you gave, the child would be ethnically Asian and religiously Jewish. Pretty straightforward really.


People have been living on that little strip of land for thousands of years. It's changed hands countless times. Ethnic groups have interbred (the young tend to be preoccupied with the private parts of the opposite ***, not necessarily their theology)...so by now who's to say who is what?
First off, Jews have largely been segregated from Biblical times until the 20th century. The term "ghetto" was developed to refer to forcibly segregated Jewish populations. That's why Jews developed their own languages (Yiddish and Ladino in addition to Hebrew), their own cuisine (though besides bagels most of it is pretty foul), their own traditional music (klezmer ensmbles), etc.

The normal markings of an "ethnicity" are common language, common traditions, common history, etc. Judaism meets all of these.

[StarvingStudent47]

@ StarvingStudent47

I have read all your post and it's not too much to ask for me to have an open mind. Suppose that's why I wanted to know the difference. I have no right to put you or your religion down when I know nothing about it.

You have given me things to ponder over, Thank you.

I commend you. Most people don't have the balls to fess up to past mistakes. If you've got any other questions about Jewish beliefs, culture, or history, I can do my best to answer them, and hopefully some of the other Jews around here can chip in their own two cents ;)

[Fox2]

This is a bit off-topic, but since we're asking all these questions about Israel... :D

I have a question for IDFm203 or any of the other Israelis who could be so kind as to answer.

Is it true that if you subscribe to any religion other than traditional (not necessarily totally orthodox) Judaism, you are denied voting rights?

The reason I ask is I know someone from there who is a Messianic Jew, and I *believe* he mentioned once that he does not have voting rights?

It's fairly likely that I am completely wrong on this, but I was just curious.

Thanks in advance. :D

[ArmoredDov_D9]

This is a bit off-topic, but since we're asking all these questions about Israel... :D

I have a question for IDFm203 or any of the other Israelis who could be so kind as to answer.

Is it true that if you subscribe to any religion other than traditional (not necessarily totally orthodox) Judaism, you are denied voting rights?

The reason I ask is I know someone from there who is a Messianic Jew, and I *believe* he mentioned once that he does not have voting rights?

It's fairly likely that I am completely wrong on this, but I was just curious.

Thanks in advance. :D

That is not true.
If you have Israeli citizenship, you have a voting right - no matter what your religion is.

[IDFM203]

Ok let me just add to what armour dov said

This is a bit off-topic, but since we're asking all these questions about Israel... :D wow!! gee this is your first post and this is the thread that you start off with?!? :roll: hmmm :roll: ;)


Is it true that if you subscribe to any religion other than traditional (not necessarily totally orthodox) Judaism, you are denied voting rights? no, that’s totally false.


Most Israeli’s are not orthodox and they are not denied voting rights. Israeli Arabs are not orthodox jews (stating the obvious) and yet they too are not denied voting rights etc….

fact: No Israeli citizen is ever denied voting rights!!!!

No, it’s about conversion. Meaning Israel has a law that any Jew that comes to Israel and applies for citizenship gets automatic citizenship. Now Israel recognises only one Jewish conversion and that is based strictly on the torah and the orthodox strict interpretation to it.

So if one converts not in a torah way, then he is not considered a Jew.

Now this topic is opening a can of worms so to speak and it is a long and arduous off topic discussion.

With that said I hope that brief explanation satisfies.

shalom :D

[Fox2]

Thanks for the explanation. :)

I did not mean to offend. That was definitely not my intention.

It was a sincere question that I was genuinely curious about. I will have to ask my friend about it the next time we meet.

And yes, I chose this thread as my first post. :D

I just registered to post, as I have had that question for a long time, and thought it was the right time and circumstances to do so.

I have read this forum for a little while now, but never participated.

Anyway, thanks for your explanation, and I did not mean to "open a can of worms".

Thanks again and Shalom. ;)