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NcDeuce
11-03-2003, 10:17 AM
U.S. Grounds Daytime Chinook Flights in Iraq

FALLUJAH, Iraq — The U.S. military grounded all daytime operations by CH-47 Chinook helicopters Monday after Iraqi insurgents downed one the day before, killing 16 soldiers and wounding 20 others.

Fox News has confirmed that Chinook operations will be limited to night flights only.

"Any time you have an attack on a — successful attack on a helicopter, you have to say it is a tragic day for those people who were killed and wounded. We know that. But there are going to be days like that," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told "Fox News Sunday."

U.S. coalition officials blamed either Saddam loyalists or foreign fighters.

Rumsfeld said that most, if not all, of the attacks on U.S. and coalition troops and the Iraqis working with them were being launched by remnants of the Baathist regime, Islamist groups such as Ansar al-Islam (search) and fighters from other Arab and Muslim countries.

"They want to take back, and they're not going to," the defense secretary said. "They're not going to come close to taking that country back."

The Chinook was shot down Sunday outside the anti-U.S. hotbed of Fallujah (search), located in the so-called "Sunni Triangle" (search) north and west of Baghdad. The troops on board had been headed to Baghdad International Airport, from where they were scheduled to leave the country for two weeks' rest and recreation.

The attack was the single deadliest strike on U.S. forces since the end of major combat in April.

Two days before Sunday's attack, Iraqi insurgents warned of new attacks using "modern and advanced methods."

Three other Americans were killed Sunday, including one 1st Armored Division soldier in Baghdad and two U.S. civilians working for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in Fallujah. All three were victims of roadside bombs, the military said.

After the Chinook attack Sunday, five shells exploded in different neighborhoods in the northern oil city of Kirkuk, killing one Iraqi and injuring eight, Jalal Jawher, a Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (search) official, said Monday.

"They were randomly fired. There are no U.S. bases in those areas," he said.

On Saturday, fire broke out at an oil pipeline in Samara, 60 miles northwest of Baghdad, after it was hit by a bomb, an oil official said. The pipeline runs from northern Kirkuk to a Baghdad refinery.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/106684/6_25_110303_iraq.jpg
[i]A soldier injured in Sunday's attack in Iraq is brought out of a plane on a stretcher at Ramstein Air Base in Germany Monday.

second explosion occurred Saturday on a pipeline between Saddam's hometown of Tikrit and Beiji.

A C-17 transport plane carrying between 18 and 30 soldiers wounded in the helicopter downing arrived for treatment Monday at Landstuhl Medical Center (search) in Germany, the biggest U.S. military hospital in Europe.

The commander of the medical center, Rhonda Cornum, said that of the 16 people admitted, 11 were in the intensive-care unit. While their conditions were still being evaluated, she added, they were considered stable. One victim is female.

As with many helicopter accidents, Cornum said, the victims suffered many broken bones, loss of consciousness and some head injuries.

A 17th soldier injured in the attack was to arrive Tuesday morning, said hospital spokeswoman Marie Shaw.

Chinook Downed

In the helicopter downing, two shoulder-fired missiles streaked into the sky and slammed into the rear of the giant chopper, witnesses said. Another Chinook continued unharmed.

The missiles seemed to have been fired from a palm grove about 500 yards away, said Thaer Ali, 21. At least one hit the Chinook, which came down in a field in the farming village of Hasai, a few miles south of Fallujah, witnesses said.

Hours later, thick smoke rose from the blackened, smoldering hulk as U.S. soldiers swarmed over the crash site, evacuating the injured, retrieving evidence and cordoning off the area. Near the Euphrates River farming village of Hasi, a giant crane lifted pieces of wreckage onto a truck.

"I saw the helicopter burning. I ran toward it because I wanted to help put out the fire, but couldn't get near because of American soldiers," said Yassin Mohamed, who heard the explosion and ran out of his house, a half-mile away.

In an unsigned leaflet posted Friday in area mosques, insurgents urged people to avoid public places on Saturday and Sunday.

"Special operations against occupation forces might be carried out by using modern and advanced methods," the leaflet said.

Unshakable Will

President Bush, who was at his Texas ranch Sunday, did not personally comment on the attacks. But White House officials sought to assure Americans of the administration's resolve to win the guerrilla war in Iraq.

"The terrorists seek to kill coalition forces and innocent Iraqis because they want us to run, but our will and resolve are unshakable," White House spokesman Trent Duffy said.

"Sept. 11 taught us that we must confront terrorists and outlaw regimes with weapons of mass murder before it is too late ... the only way to win the war on terror is to take the fight to the enemy."

In Britain, Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed his regret over the shootdown, saying the past week had been a "particularly grim seven days" in terms of casualties, a spokesman said Monday.

L. Paul Bremer, the head of the occupation in Iraq, repeated demands that Syria and Iran prevent fighters from crossing their borders into Iraq.

"They could do a much better job of helping us seal that border and keeping terrorists out of Iraq," he said in a televised interview. The "enemies of freedom" in Iraq "are using more sophisticated techniques to attack our forces."

U.S. officials have been warning of the danger of shoulder-fired missiles, thousands of which have gone missing from Iraqi arsenals. Such missiles are believed to have downed two U.S. copters since May 1, wounding one American.

The CH-47 helicopter belonged to the 12th Aviation Brigade, a Germany-based unit that supports the 82nd Airborne Division Task Force operating west of Baghdad. A military spokesman at Fort Carson, Colo., said the Chinooks were carrying soldiers from Fort Carson; Fort Sill, Okla.; Fort Campbell, Ky.; and Fort Hood, Texas.

"Many were looking forward to a break in the action," said Lt. Col. Thomas Budzyna. "Unfortunately, they faced something else."

The Pentagon announced Friday it was expanding the rest and recreation leave program for troops in Iraq. As of Sunday, the number of soldiers departing daily to the United States via a transit facility in neighboring Kuwait would be increased from 280 to 480.

The downing and the soldier's death in Baghdad brought to at least 139 the number of American soldiers killed by hostile fire since Bush declared an end to combat on May 1.

Around 377 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/106651/16_24_110203_chinook3.jpg
AF or Army MH-60 near the area after a Chinook helicopter was shot down.

Time to strap on the NVG's

Seoulstriker
11-03-2003, 10:25 AM
i hope that the iraqis don't think we are getting weak.

Argyll
11-03-2003, 11:55 AM
They'll consider this a small victory,regardless

Kriz
11-03-2003, 01:29 PM
They'll consider this a small victory,regardless

I think that's pretty logical, everyone in the world considers the us army to be allmighty but when **** like this happens everyone gets proven wrong.
I fear this will only be an extra motivation for more attacks.

usa320
11-03-2003, 03:17 PM
WE shouldnt have been flying big birds like that durring the day anyway. We can operate just as efficently and safer at night.

budanski
11-03-2003, 03:20 PM
U.S. developing laser defense against SA-7 attacks (http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_4.html)

IDFM203
11-03-2003, 03:24 PM
U.S. and Israel are working together in

developing a laser defense against SA-7 attacks (http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_4.html)

shalom :D

Argyll
11-03-2003, 04:00 PM
Why does it seem sometimes that the cart comes before the horse?

These should've been produced after the 1st GW!

Seoulstriker
11-03-2003, 04:14 PM
Why does it seem sometimes that the cart comes before the horse?

These should've been produced after the 1st GW!

nah, man. the cost of producing chemical lasers 10 years ago was enormous. laser technology has just come into existence over the past 20-30 years.

what would be a better idea instead of using chemical lasers would be flares.

Argyll
11-03-2003, 04:26 PM
But these birds had Flare dispensers on them.!!
The missile was fired aparently from 500m away from the CH47,and this flies at something like 430m's a second,that crew just simlply never had time to act,the jammers would've had less than a second to activate,by that time,the chopper was hit,and that perhaps highlights that this was no typical run of the mill attack,whoever fired that SAM knew what they were doing,and Iraq is awash with these things!
On Fox last night there was an ex SGT MAJ who said that these things were selling for $5k a piece,but the US Mil were buying them from the Iraqi's at $500,so someone with a little enterprise will see a potential and lethal profit,and that my friend is very very alarming!

Seoulstriker
11-03-2003, 04:41 PM
But these birds had Flare dispensers on them.!!
The missile was fired aparently from 500m away from the CH47,and this flies at something like 430m's a second,that crew just simlply never had time to act,the jammers would've had less than a second to activate,by that time,the chopper was hit,and that perhaps highlights that this was no typical run of the mill attack,whoever fired that SAM knew what they were doing,and Iraq is awash with these things!
On Fox last night there was an ex SGT MAJ who said that these things were selling for $5k a piece,but the US Mil were buying them from the Iraqi's at $500,so someone with a little enterprise will see a potential and lethal profit,and that my friend is very very alarming!

damn. were they at 1,500 feet? what was the altitude? that must have been a really close shot, and i don't think that lasers could even deal with that.

Argyll
11-03-2003, 04:47 PM
I think they must've been less than 500,maybe even lower,as there's no way anyone could survive crashing from that height!
I was in the Falklands when the Chinook came down,it suffered a catastrophic failure,after just returning to flight duty,killing all 7 onboard,she was less than 500' when she came down!!

Red
11-03-2003, 07:24 PM
I heard they were flying at 200 feet,they had just taken off, dont know could be wrong please anyone with verified info please post.

NcDeuce
11-03-2003, 07:26 PM
Yeah, there is no way they were shot down from 1,500 ft. or whatever someone claimed.

They might have been using nap-of-the-earth flying to get from Point A to Point B in as little time as possible. But I think 150-250 ft. sounds right.

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
11-03-2003, 07:48 PM
according to cnn the flights are still happening during the daytime they are just reviewing flight plans and making sure that there routes are not predictable.

Argyll
11-03-2003, 07:53 PM
TF that's exactly what I said to Seoul,NOE fast and furious,and this may be the only reason there were survivors,1500' x 130-170 knots ,there would have been a full choppers worth of fatalities!

Skaman
11-03-2003, 09:18 PM
40 soldiers is nothing. This is sad, but put things in perspective. The civillian casualties in iraq are tenfold and I dont see you all weaping your little hearts out. Play me the mini violin, this is war, its unfortunete, get over it! Im sad that these people lost their lives truly, but we westerners have never truly suffered.


the USA is not untouchable.

If you want to look at a real war with real casaulties, look at rwanda, uganda, somalia, balkanks, chechneya etc. The last 10 years are full of horrible conficts with THOUSANDS of deaths

Fioraon
11-03-2003, 09:22 PM
no **** ducimus19

Vance
11-03-2003, 09:23 PM
Im sad that these people lost their lives truly, but we westerners have never truly suffered.
We never suffered on 9/11? :bash:

Skaman
11-03-2003, 09:27 PM
Im sad that these people lost their lives truly, but we westerners have never truly suffered.
We never suffered on 9/11? :bash:


3000 people give me a break. That event was over exagerated into the biggest tragdy of all time. RWANDA lot 300 THOUSAND during civil war and its period of genocide. 911 was a tragedy but a mere grain sand in a beach full of atrocities.

Vance
11-03-2003, 09:30 PM
Im sad that these people lost their lives truly, but we westerners have never truly suffered.
We never suffered on 9/11? :bash:


3000 people give me a break. That event was over exagerated into the biggest tragdy of all time. RWANDA lot 300 THOUSAND during civil war and its period of genocide. 911 was a tragedy but a mere grain sand in a beach full of atrocities.
But you said we'd never SUFFERED. Let's see you lose 3,000 of yours and you not suffer over it.

Ratamacue
11-03-2003, 09:33 PM
3000 people give me a break. That event was over exagerated into the biggest tragdy of all time. RWANDA lot 300 THOUSAND during civil war and its period of genocide. 911 was a tragedy but a mere grain sand in a beach full of atrocities.
Speak for your own opinions. I was 35 miles away and watching it on TV as the first tower collapsed. Don't you fvcking tell me we haven't suffered at all.

Skaman
11-03-2003, 09:33 PM
I said westerners have never TRULY suffered. Hey my grandma dying is suffering in my oppinion, yet its unmeasurable to the rest of the worlds problems.

Ratamacue
11-03-2003, 09:34 PM
What's the difference between suffering and truly suffering? Is there such thing as falsely suffering?

Skaman
11-03-2003, 09:36 PM
3000 people give me a break. That event was over exagerated into the biggest tragdy of all time. RWANDA lot 300 THOUSAND during civil war and its period of genocide. 911 was a tragedy but a mere grain sand in a beach full of atrocities.
Speak for your own opinions. I was 35 miles away and watching it on TV as the first tower collapsed. Don't you fvcking tell me we haven't suffered at all.


Give me a break. 3000 die. Have your entire nation ripped apart by civil war and entire family thrown in a hole and shot to death. Thats suffering. Famalies in the USA, if unfortunete enough to lose a family member, probally lost only one during 911. Not their ENTIRE inner family. 911 was a horrible event, but we need to put SUFFERING in perspective. 911 was sansationalized and was on the tv for damb near half a year. Talk about having that event shoved down your throat!!!!

Vance
11-03-2003, 09:48 PM
Have your entire nation ripped apart by civil war
Aren't you majoring in history? Jesus, you should know the answer to this.

NcDeuce
11-03-2003, 09:51 PM
Ducimus,

You have gone over the edge. You should really keep those thoughts to yourself.


Play me the mini violin, this is war, its unfortunete, get over it!

You have obviously never known death. If you did, you would not have made a comment such as this.

You are a disgrace to your country and fellow man. I think you just need a good ass whooping from some of the guys fighting in Iraq or maybe a few of the NYPD and NYFD guys.

Skaman
11-03-2003, 09:54 PM
Have your entire nation ripped apart by civil war
Aren't you majoring in history? Jesus, you should know the answer to this.


I see you are referring to the american civil war, yet our current topic of discussion is current issues. I thought of including that, yet I saw it as non-relevent.

Vance
11-03-2003, 09:56 PM
Try to make yourself more clear.

Skaman
11-03-2003, 09:58 PM
Ducimus,

You have gone over the edge. You should really keep those thoughts to yourself.


Play me the mini violin, this is war, its unfortunete, get over it!

You have obviously never known death. If you did, you would not have made a comment such as this.

You are a disgrace to your country and fellow man. I think you just need a good ass whooping from some of the guys fighting in Iraq or maybe a few of the NYPD and NYFD guys.


I think its sad, yet the event is over sensationalized. And never known anything of death, unforunetely I have, right before my eyes......