Do the Iraqi people really have the will to change?

[Argyll]

This topic is not about the justifications of the war,this has been discussed plenty of times ,and always results in a split,but I want to see what others feel here,and I want also to point out that it is nothing to do with sympathetic views,it's done on the basis of observations from news reports,and pictures that have come out of the Country.

Imagine that you've lived under a regime for so long that it has become a way of life,you do not know anything other than what has been since the day you were born,it is not a good regime,but how do you know that it is not,nothing has ever happened to you or family members because you've always done what they want of you,a model citizen as such!.
Then comes a war that sees many die from your countrymyou do not know why,but they are not your nations Army that has come into your villages and homes,that are rounding up suspects,some are your friends,you have no idea why they are there,they're frightening you,they've taken your father and brothers,because they once served,and fought for their country,proud to do so too,but you still don't understand,they stop you from going to see your friends,they say there's been a shooting,a tragic accident,the car did not stop and now they take out the bodies of your mother and sister,my God what have these invaders done,I'm so angry,I want to kill them,I wnat to shoot them all ,I'm all alone.....and with that you pick up the family rifle and join your freinds who also want to avenge these deaths.....and so it begins!

That little parody could be anywhere in the world,a simple thing patriotism!

I have seen scores of young Iraqi's between the ages of 10-30 who seem to be celebrating and extremely happy that a US/Coalition vehicle gets blown up,the same age group who have never known it as any better!
If these kids and young men are celebrating,and seemed overjoyed with each attack that has taken place,do they really have it in themselves to change for the better?

[Royal]

They have the ability to change - look at the example of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, whether they have the will is an altogether different question.

Deep down, although a cynic, I am an optimist.

With good intelligence, C3 and a total change in attitude we could change Iraq for the better. It is not an issue of G1, G3 and G4. It's G2 and G5 ;)

[WARPIG]

I think I said it before. For those who have only known oppression, liberty must seem evil. Maybe not by Western thinking but Arabs have a whole different set of values. Bringing liberty may be unwanted. People have been told of the great white evil for so long... how must be the mindset of those that have feared us for so long? Prisoners that have been there most of their lives often fear the "outside." There is a safety in the certainty of oppression.
Even for those who do want liberty... many are utterly seething with hatred because of "who" brought them liberty.
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.
~Howard Thurman

We have chosen a side based on our moral beliefs. Most of the Arab world is founded in Muslim belief. Many of that faith believe us to be the evil ones.
The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty.
~Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)
I use these quotes often, as they seem to show that even in times past .. human nature has always followed similar patterns in conflict. Even when the masses crave a better way of life.. they are only the mass..not the total. Western freedom will eventually come to Iraq. Many will fear it, hate it and fight it. We fight for the freedom of people who may never thank us.

[Vance]

Excellent post, Warpig.

[Argyll]

Well said!
And it seems also that there is a hope,but it maybe years away.



just noticed that I passed the 1000 post barrier!! woot

[WARPIG]

Winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people is a steady uphill battle. I believe we are making progress there. The battle I fear is winning the hearts and minds of the media. It seems that they have resorted to sensationalism and that simply feeds the critics and US haters.
I just call it the way I see it.

[Smoothie104]

Once we get the kids hooked on MTV, video games, and Pro Wrestling, fatten them up with McDonalds and Pizza hut, rewrite thier history books, etc... They will be too busy being good little oil producing consumers (puppets) to worry about Jihad.

Its just a matter or time.

I wonder if we will cut out the tongues of the one who refuse to speak english, like we did to the Native Americans.



Something to think about.... How many generations would it take for us here in the U.S. to accept a foreign ruling power, especially a foreign ruling power that is denounced by our religious leaders?

[Trident-za]

They have the ability to change - look at the example of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, whether they have the will is an altogether different question.



Having lived through the TRC and subsequent years, I can tell you that acceptance of change takes a loooong time, perhaps generations. The kids are fine, the adults are a different story. Much progress has been made, but there are still relatively large percentages of people, from all race groups, that are battling to put "the struggle" behind them. And, in this case, the protagonists are all from the same country, and mostly the same religion.

The situation in Iraq is a lot more complicated - different religions and cultures, and one group being from outside the country. It can be done, but it will take years (if not decades) to sort out, in my opinon.

[One?]

They will change as soon as the military occupation ends. Give the power to the Iraqis and they will love you in no time.

[budanski]

Iraq is no more capable of ruling itself than Japan was in 1945. They need a five or six years of U.S. Military Rule, indoctrination in democratic principals and hunting down of the Baathists, before they begin to take part in their government, and a good dozen years before they can stand alone.

[Vance]

Iraq is no more capable of ruling itself than Japan was in 1945. They need a five or six years of U.S. Military Rule
I can almost feel the body count rising with that post.

[Gordon]

Don't you just love the word "indoctrination" it has so much more of a sinister undertone than "education" ... ;) ... i'm just having a laugh by the way.

[NcDeuce]

Once we get the kids hooked on MTV, video games, and Pro Wrestling, fatten them up with McDonalds and Pizza hut, rewrite thier history books, etc... They will be too busy being good little oil producing consumers (puppets) to worry about Jihad.


Sounds good to me

[spier]

Iraq is no more capable of ruling itself than Japan was in 1945. They need a five or six years of U.S. Military Rule, indoctrination in democratic principals* and hunting down of the Baathists, before they begin to take part in their government**, and a good dozen years before they can stand alone.*read: pro-American attitudes.
**read: puppet-regime

Found a quote that partially sums up my view on the thing:
Do not do unto others as you expect they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same. - George Bernard Shaw

Then there is this thing with people that have a speck of dignity and love for their country that they would never allow themselves to be ruled by foreigners without a fight.

[budanski]

Don't you just love the word "indoctrination" it has so much more of a sinister undertone than "education" ... ;) ... i'm just having a laugh by the way.

sorry, freudian slip.

[budanski]

**read: puppet-regime

*see Germany
**see Japan

[Vance]

**read: puppet-regime

*see Germany
**see Japan
***see Kuwait

[jdbjdb]

Some of Iraq's neighbors Iran, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, do not want democracy to work, thats bad news for the military dictatorship in Syria. What about human rights? I doubt they could even spell it. The Baathist will be a thorn in the side of The United States and the Western style Iraqi Government for years to come, plus the Iraqi's who want an Islamic State, and not a democractic one.

[spier]

**read: puppet-regime

*see Germany
**see Japan
***see Kuwait Doesn't both Japan and Germany still have a few thousand troops stationed? :roll:

Kuwait, right. What an excellent example of democracy, USA style: a dictatorship. In practice at least.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Lets face it, they have to be willing to help themselves before any progress is made. Attacking international aid agencies and international troops isnt helping the situation at all its only deteriorating it more. I've said it before and will say it again, if the Iraq situation was happening in North America would Iraq spend billions of dollars and sacrific peoples lives to help us? I dont think so. They probably wouldnt give a flying F*ck. They should be gratefull considering they were ruled by an dictator that use'd chemical weapons against his own people. Next time the free world may not be so willing to come to the aid if this is the kind of thanks we get. Certainly you didnt see us shooting guns in the air and dancing around like dumbass's when the kurds got gass'd same with the ****te uprising.

[Argyll]

Ther's one thing that everyone seems to overlooking here regarding the use of WMD on the Kurds,that at that time,the Kurds were considered a serious threat to the regime,and that many of the Sunni's and the Shia's,could not give a rats ass about the Kurds,and that's perhaps why they are the way they are just now,perhaps the Sunni's in particular rejoiced at the act,if this is so,then the task in Iraq is extremely difficult,in trying to bring three rival factions to the table,we've already seen the Sunni response,and considering they are the majority,it's goint to be a very very long drawn out affair,and without finacial aid from other countries can the USA realisticallly continue to pour Billions of dollars into that country?
If it does prove a very long drawn out affair,then where does that place the Iranians with their desire to build Nuclear facilities,unless there are sunbstantial amounts of troops on the ground at all times the Iranains,along with the other dubious States may use this affair to their advantage?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well maybe you didnt read my last post it mentioned about the uprising and the kurds being gas'd. There has been financial aid from other countries ..i think bundanski posted it awhile ago. It is going to be a long drawn out affair for sure, unfortuneatly the United States is stuck in the middle of the ****-storm.

[Argyll]

Yes ,but what I'm saying that the Sunni's in Central Iraq couldn't give a flying fu*k about the Kurds or the Shias,they never have and the more than likely never will,they see them as much of a threat to their cushy lifestyle,than the Armies that now occupy their land!

[Gordon]

If you check out some of the links to Kurd sites that deuterium posted a while back, I don't have the time right now to find it, I remember reading on these sites, I think, that many of the kurds would like to build up Iraq as three different nations (eg. the balkans) as opposed to one Iraq. They go into detail about how how trying to combine the Sunni, Shia and Kurdish regions is all but impossible from their point of view, also it's been know for a long time that the Kurds would like their own country and I think this is one of Turkeys fears about this whole matter.

As I said this is all from memory so sorry for any mistakes.

edit - as Argyll said i'm pretty sure most of the Sunni's / Shias couldn't care less about Kurds being gased / killed .. as far as I know they all pretty much hate each other.

[Trident-za]

Gordon and Argyll, I think you have both raised some very valid points.... mixing religions is not an easy task where most of the people in the country take their religion very seriously indeed.

I remember reading a thread on this forum very recently that involved a lot of "religious convictions"... someone said the following:


I dislike Muslims a.k.a. ragheads, they're following the wrong faith. They are all going to Hell unless they convert to the one and only God. Towelheads can rot in the ashes of Hell for all I care

I believe all three of these groups in Iraq take their religion as seriously as the young man who made this comment. The sentiments expressed in this quote are probably exactly how these groups all feel about each other.... it's gonna take more than MacDonalds and MTV to solve the problem.... or maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.

[WARPIG]

Please see my previous post.
It is obvious that the US is in for a long, painful, expensive ordeal in Iraq. I don't think that we will see a democracy like Germany and Japan. Maybe like Korea, but don't take that too literal. It is likely that Iraq will see a split state. I can't say that every party will have seperate countries but atleast seperate states. The US is in there for the long haul regardless. US soldiers will see 1 year hardship tours (like Korea) for many years to come. And, Iraq will develope new and unique problems each step of the way. The wild west atmosphere that exists now will eventually taper off and more power will be restored to the Iraqi people. Have no doubt.. we will not be loved or liked as we have with Germany, Japan, Korea, etc. The big difference is the religious gap between us.
Keep in mind .. the popular practice that Muslim extremists us to prove a point is terror. Apparently, fasting just hasn't been as effective lately.

[Armour recon]

It is almost impossible to say how they are going to approve democracy.
Many of them don't even know how it works and how much their lives are going to change. Many won't even approved it, they will fight against it and that leads to innocent casulties. I think they will never have democracy in middle-east.