Poll concerning America+its current political state

[Skaman]

This is a chance for people to be honest without the fear of being ganged up on the "sheep". Put aside your previous apprehensions, and be honest....

[budanski]

You sure you don't work for the BBC?

[Vance]

Or the Canada Daily?

[Skaman]

Oops, I forgot, news sources are not viable unless they come from CNN or Fox news...my bad. :roll:

[...]

How much is the United States giving out in foreign aid? How much is the rest of the world?

[Seoulstriker]

Oops, I forgot, news sources are not viable unless they come from CNN or Fox news...my bad. :roll:

who said CNN is a non-biased network?

[Skaman]

How much is the United States giving out in foreign aid? How much is the rest of the world?

"foreign aid" and cash is a great cover for your own hidden agenda. Where was the money for Uganda, for Eritriea, for the hundreads of other impovrished states? The only nations that get money, are ones that serve some mutually benifical purpose!!!

[Ratamacue]

How can you see our agenda if it's hidden? The US donates more money than any other country in the world. Maybe not by percentage of budget, but that's because we have a nation of some 275 million to care for as well.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Then give me some bloody money! :lol:

[...]

Then give me some bloody money! :lol:

Your better off asking Canada I guess they are just helping everybody out.

[Jack Mehoff]

Then give me some bloody money! :lol:

Your better off asking Canada I guess they are just helping everybody out.

word

[Skaman]

we give way more than our fair share, and it shows. We give too much on a per capita basis, thus a reason our federal taxation is so high.(one of many reasons)

I belive the iraq mission could be salvaged. The USA is great for getting the preliminary combat and destruction done, but they cant effectively stabalize a nation. Japan/Germany omitted. A combined G7 effort minus the USA should be in iraq rebuilding the nation, effectively peacekeeping, and instating proper political reforms. The USA is wasting money-like come on, they build soccer fields which get ripped down the following day!
Its like your high school bully beating you up then offering you a hand after he gave you a black eye. You would be confused, and there would be residual resentment. Leave the USA to blowing stuff up, its all they are good at.

[...]

Do you know how long it took to rebuild Germany and Japan?

[Ratamacue]

The USA is great for getting the preliminary combat and destruction done, but they cant effectively stabalize a nation. Japan/Germany omitted.

Very convenient for you to ignore Japan and Germany. What countries have we fvcked up when rebuilding, exactly? And do you really think that an international force could rebuild Iraq without funding from the US?

[mocking_loudly_died]

Shut up American imperialist dog! :lol:

Sorry I had to throw that into the mix. :oops:

[Skaman]

The USA is great for getting the preliminary combat and destruction done, but they cant effectively stabalize a nation. Japan/Germany omitted.

Very convenient for you to ignore Japan and Germany. What countries have we fvcked up when rebuilding, exactly? And do you really think that an international force could rebuild Iraq without funding from the US?

Haiti
El Salvador
Iraq
Somalia
Liberia
Niciragua
Panama
Vietnam


Those are nations you screwed up in an attempt to "fix" them

No, we need your money, but we deffinetely dont need you in Iraq.

[...]

So Oh Great One what would the Mighty Ducimus do in Iraq to make everything all better?

[Vance]

Liberia

What the hell? There was widespread fighting in the country, and the leader of the country was pretty bad. We went in there, stopped the fighting, instated a new leader, and left. I've heard of no problems since. How is this a faliure?

[4LPH4 B3T4]

Well... The United States of America?!
We blame 'em if they do... and we blame 'em if they don't!
That is, people, the ****ed up mentality of the general world.
At least they do something. And I'm glad to say as a Dane that I support them. (And England as well)!
It's a ****ed up world we live in... (I'll bet everyone can agree with that one)! ...and something has to be done. But who has the guts to fight for a better world(?) USA, England and Denmark has. Sure the Americans are the superior force in this... and Denmark the smallest. But we're supporting them. As soldiers, as Allied, we will fight. Not for world peace. That will never happen. But for a world worth living in!



http://home.swipnet.se/~w-19792/dansk.gif

[Skaman]

So Oh Great One what would the Mighty Ducimus do in Iraq to make everything all better?


I would have the G7 nations replace the US forces as peace keepers. Have a continual flow of american currency coming into to support the effort with no US personal in IRAQ though. See, the iaqi people hate the us because its been spoon fed propaghanda by al-jazzera and sadaam for so long that they cant get it out of their system. They cant tolerate an American "occupaton". The iraqis will take what ever chance they get to rebel, kill, and hate the USA because its all they have ever known. Some USA actions havent helped either p-)

Nontheless, by putting in modern western nations, we can establish a strong political shere to encompas the Iraqi goverment, and establish civil rights. In the end, the iraqi people wont feel like they are being exploited, rather helped. This would look kindly on the USA as well, offering Billions to the nation, disproving accusations they have a hidden agenda in iraq. Iraq would rebuild over time and would hopefully bring stability to the region!

[Skaman]

Liberia

What the hell? There was widespread fighting in the country, and the leader of the country was pretty bad. We went in there, stopped the fighting, instated a new leader, and left. I've heard of no problems since. How is this a faliure?

You sent your 1000 troops...woo hoo! Like I said, the USA is great for blowing stuff up and doing preliminary fighting, but they leave after is over.

Liberia

1.War torn
2.Homelessness
3.No jobs
4.Inflation, worthless dollar
5.Food is running out


These problems need to be adressed, you cant just kill everyone then leave, expecting the nation to do fine!

[Ratamacue]

Yeah I don't think we killed all too many people in Liberia dude...

[NcDeuce]

Liberia

1.War torn
2.Homelessness
3.No jobs
4.Inflation, worthless dollar
5.Food is running out


These problems need to be adressed, you cant just kill everyone then leave, expecting the nation to do fine!

You Canadians ought to lead the way, eh?

[Skaman]

heh, our military is only so big. Our military is stretched with Afghanistan, Eritreia, Congo and Bosnia. We send all we can. Remember, our population is quite small at only 31 million.

But what do you guys think of my Iraq proposal, not bad heh? ;)

[usa320]

Shall i do the honors of virtually kicking this ****head troll's ass?

I mean this is the most obvious and blatant troll ive ever seen.

This being a site run by US servicemen, im not sure why these assholes are even allowed to stay.

If your plan is so good, then why arent the G7 nations sending troops to IRaq?

[Jack Mehoff]

Liberia

What the hell? There was widespread fighting in the country, and the leader of the country was pretty bad. We went in there, stopped the fighting, instated a new leader, and left. I've heard of no problems since. How is this a faliure?

You sent your 1000 troops...woo hoo! Like I said, the USA is great for blowing stuff up and doing preliminary fighting, but they leave after is over.

Liberia

1.War torn
2.Homelessness
3.No jobs
4.Inflation, worthless dollar
5.Food is running out


These problems need to be adressed, you cant just kill everyone then leave, expecting the nation to do fine!

Another reason why AMERICA SHOULD NOT LEAVE IRAQ

[usa320]

LEAVING IRAQ IS NOT AN OPTION.

Why dont you stupid stubborn assholes get that through your heads?

Maybe its normal procedure for European countries to back out and leave people and their country ruined, but we are the hell in this for the long haul, because we WILL NOT be seeing anymore planes flying into our ****ing buildings.

As long as there are still terrorists mother****ing assholes out there, we will be hard at work, adding much need chlorine to the gene pool.

[Ratamacue]

heh, our military is only so big. Our military is stretched with Afghanistan, Eritreia, Congo and Bosnia. We send all we can. Remember, our population is quite small at only 31 million.

But what do you guys think of my Iraq proposal, not bad heh? ;)

Our military is stretched pretty thin too, dude.

[Skaman]

LEAVING IRAQ IS NOT AN OPTION.

Why dont you stupid stubborn assholes get that through your heads?

Maybe its normal procedure for European countries to back out and leave people and their country ruined, but we are the hell in this for the long haul, because we WILL NOT be seeing anymore planes flying into our f*** buildings.

As long as there are still terrorists f*** assholes out there, we will be hard at work, adding much need chlorine to the gene pool.


I didnt say we should leave iraq, that would be chaos with all the damage the USA created. Review my post on a suggested Iraqi proposal, that would be much more realistic. And by the way, some of the G7 nations ARE there! Case in point, no terrorist pilots came from Iraq to the best of my knowledge...

[usa320]

did you watch the video of Fedayeen chopping people's arms off with axes?

And you think we are making a mess????

[Jack Mehoff]

LEAVING IRAQ IS NOT AN OPTION.

Why dont you stupid stubborn assholes get that through your heads?

Maybe its normal procedure for European countries to back out and leave people and their country ruined, but we are the hell in this for the long haul, because we WILL NOT be seeing anymore planes flying into our f*** buildings.

As long as there are still terrorists f*** assholes out there, we will be hard at work, adding much need chlorine to the gene pool.


I didnt say we should leave iraq, that would be chaos with all the damage the USA created. Review my post on a suggested Iraqi proposal, that would be much more realistic. And by the way, some of the G7 nations ARE there! Case in point, no terrorist pilots came from Iraq to the best of my knowledge...

Like the international Red Cross blown up by terrorists?

[Skaman]

no seriously guys, is my proposal not a viable alternative?

[usa320]

:roll:

*SUBJECT CHANGE*

[Seoulstriker]

no seriously guys, is my proposal not a viable alternative?

no. it doesn't change anything. the baathists will continue killing anyone just to get saddam back in power.

[mocking_loudly_died]

America should stay in Iraq for the long haul.

Pulling out is not an option and would most certainly send a signal to terrorist factions that the US doesn't have the will for a long-term commitment in the Middle East.

Regime change is not complete once the War is over; you must institute a new system that cannot be easily subverted by the remnants of the past power.

This will take years not months; I cannot understand why the media is so naive about these things.

[Skaman]

no seriously guys, is my proposal not a viable alternative?

no. it doesn't change anything. the baathists will continue killing anyone just to get saddam back in power.

but its more than the bathists killing people because they ALL hate the USA unfortunetely

[Operation Ivy]

Well... The United States of America?!
We blame 'em if they do... and we blame 'em if they don't!
That is, people, the f*** up mentality of the general world.
At least they do something. And I'm glad to say as a Dane that I support them. (And England as well)!
It's a f*** up world we live in... (I'll bet everyone can agree with that one)! ...and something has to be done. But who has the guts to fight for a better world(?) USA, England and Denmark has. Sure the Americans are the superior force in this... and Denmark the smallest. But we're supporting them. As soldiers, as Allied, we will fight. Not for world peace. That will never happen. But for a world worth living in!



http://home.swipnet.se/~w-19792/dansk.gif

I agree with him.....we dont do anything ppl get mad, we do, do something and ppl still get mad :|

[usa320]

I agreee as well.

Damned if you, Damned if you dont.

[Skaman]

I agreee as well.

Damned if you, Damned if you dont.

I disagree, I think if the USA withdrew from Iraq in place of other western nations, yet continued a steady flow of currency into Iraq,the USA would gain some great international credit, disproving notions of imperialism.

[Ratamacue]

No, people would be angry with us because that would mean other countries would need to commit LOTS of troops and they'd bitch to us for not finishing the job.

[Gordon]

How can you see our agenda if it's hidden? The US donates more money than any other country in the world. Maybe not by percentage of budget, but that's because we have a nation of some 275 million to care for as well.

Umm ... so let me get this straight. A smaller nation than the US that donates a bigger percentage of it's smaller budget is not doing as much to help as the US ... is that what you mean, because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

That's like saying I have a million dollars and i'm going to donate 100,000 dollars whereas you only have 100,000 and you're donating 50,000 hence you aren't making as much of an effort as me.

Hell man, the US has my respect for the amount of money it gives but that doesn't make a country with a smaller GDP that donates the same, or more percentage wise is doing any less ... hell every country has people to care for and the reason the US can donate so much money is because of it's size. (I have no figures, so this is hypothetically speaking)

For example, it's hardly reasonable to say that the UK, with a population of 60 odd million, is doing less because it donates less money than the US, with a population of 275 million ... the UK has 60 million people to care for and it's not as if it has the same amount of money available as the US but just decides to spend it all on it's people rather than donating it abroad.

edit - sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.

[mocking_loudly_died]

If America withdrew today the headlines would read:
"Selfish Imperialists leave poor Iraqis in anarchy".

Over the years America's presence will become less overt and hopefully this will contain the demonisation in the media of the US cause.

For the task at hand of full regime change, I believe a commitment of no less than five years should be implemented.
My opinion is based upon other situations in the past where the British instituted similar policies, albeit in a much more secret fashion.

[Ratamacue]

That's not really what I meant at all. Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to point out was that we do contribute ALOT of money for humanitarian/etc. purposes contrary to what many people say. I wasn't implying that other countries don't try as hard or don't matter or anything.

Sorry for any confusion.

[Gordon]

No, people would be angry with us because that would mean other countries would need to commit LOTS of troops and they'd bitch to us for not finishing the job.

The US, UK and Australia were the only ones who started this thing ... hence it follows that we shouldn't expect help from anyone else and if they don't want to give it then we shouldn't hold that against them. They didn't want in to start with and if they still don't want in is that really surprising.

Other countries have always said they thought this war a bad idea so surely it would make sense that if we pulled out now (hypotheically) they shouldn't have to finish it off and would have the ethical leg to stand on to bitch at us for not finishing the job.

[Gordon]

That's not really what I meant at all. Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to point out was that we do contribute ALOT of money for humanitarian/etc. purposes contrary to what many people say. I wasn't implying that other countries don't try as hard or don't matter or anything.

Sorry for any confusion.

no worries man ... ;) ... have a good one.

[Ratamacue]

No, people would be angry with us because that would mean other countries would need to commit LOTS of troops and they'd bitch to us for not finishing the job.

The US, UK and Australia were the only ones who started this thing ... hence it follows that we shouldn't expect help from anyone else and if they don't want to give it then we shouldn't hold that against them. They didn't want in to start with and if they still don't want in is that really surprising.

Other countries have always said they thought this war a bad idea so surely it would make sense that if we pulled out now (hypotheically) they shouldn't have to finish it off and would have the ethical leg to stand on to bitch at us for not finishing the job.

I agree totally with you Gordon, which is why I was pointing that out to ducimus, who said:

I disagree, I think if the USA withdrew from Iraq in place of other western nations, yet continued a steady flow of currency into Iraq,the USA would gain some great international credit, disproving notions of imperialism.

[Skaman]

The USA would get international credit for giving a ton of money, and showing that they have no imperial occupation interests in mind. I would not see them as cowards along the line of Somalia, meerly steping out of the line of fire for the best interest of both Iraq and the American people.

[Vance]

We already HAVE given a ton of money. And how can we show that were are not imperialists other than just saying we aren't? It's a tough crowd out there.

[Skaman]

We already HAVE given a ton of money. And how can we show that were are not imperialists other than just saying we aren't? It's a touch crowd out there.


America leaving, having no tie what so ever to the iraqi goverment, yet ensuring money gets into the nation would speak for itslef.

[Vance]

We'd get alot of ****e for leaving...if we did do that, we'd have to build up tons of tropps from different countries first.

[usa320]

Not to mention pulling out would leave Iraq open to another megalomaniac.

[James]

If the U.S. pulls out of Iraq I would be ashamed - more so than for going to war against them in the first place. We owe the Iraqis a working country now.

A side note - in 1999, TOTAL U.S. Foreign Aid (grants, loans, and military assistance) to the rest of the world amounted to approximately $136.00 per American. Take out military assistance, and that number falls to @ $123.00 per American. That's not that much.

The $87 Billion about to be appropriated for the military in Afghanistan and Iraq amounts to about $310.00 per American.

Something to think about.

Edit in bold.

[Vance]

So what was the total for 2002?

[James]

On the U.S. Census web site the most up to date figures for U.S. Foreign Aid are for 1999.

[Vance]

On the U.S. Census web site the most up to date figures for U.S. Foreign Aid are for 1999.
Well then who knows, it could be more than in 1999 ;)

[James]

It could be, but with Shrub in office, I have my doubts.

[Jack Mehoff]

I agreee as well.

Damned if you, Damned if you dont.

I disagree, I think if the USA withdrew from Iraq in place of other western nations, yet continued a steady flow of currency into Iraq,the USA would gain some great international credit, disproving notions of imperialism.


I believe thats what we are trying to do right now but the U.N. still hesitate to send their troops. Honestly, i rather let the Iraqis handle it themselves when they finally have their own stable government

[NcDeuce]

Liberia

1.War torn
2.Homelessness
3.No jobs
4.Inflation, worthless dollar
5.Food is running out


These problems need to be adressed, you cant just kill everyone then leave, expecting the nation to do fine!

You Canadians ought to lead the way, eh?

Eh?


heh, our military is only so big. Our military is stretched with Afghanistan, Eritreia, Congo and Bosnia. We send all we can. Remember, our population is quite small at only 31 million.

Eh?


I didnt say we should leave iraq, that would be chaos with all the damage the USA created.

Eh?


The USA would get international credit for giving a ton of money, and showing that they have no imperial occupation interests in mind. I would not see them as cowards along the line of Somalia, meerly steping out of the line of fire for the best interest of both Iraq and the American people.


Eh?

LOOK NO FURTHER FOR DUC'S HORSE SHI*!

[budanski]

US: Philanthropy for the Year (http://aafrc.org/press_releases/trustreleases/charityholds.html)

The US Becomes the World's Largest Donor Again (http://www.oecd.org/document/25/0,2340,en_2649_201185_2087449_1_1_1_1,00.html)

[James]

US: Philanthropy for the Year (http://aafrc.org/press_releases/trustreleases/charityholds.html)

The US Becomes the World's Largest Donor Again (http://www.oecd.org/document/25/0,2340,en_2649_201185_2087449_1_1_1_1,00.html)

Official Development Assistance is only a part of total foreign aid. In any case, it is good that the U.S. Donates so much, but I don't think it is a point to brag about. We are by far the richest nation in the world, after all. Bragging about how much we donate/loan etc. seems asinine.

[Gordon]

US: Philanthropy for the Year (http://aafrc.org/press_releases/trustreleases/charityholds.html)

The US Becomes the World's Largest Donor Again (http://www.oecd.org/document/25/0,2340,en_2649_201185_2087449_1_1_1_1,00.html)

Official Development Assistance is only a part of total foreign aid. In any case, it is good that the U.S. Donates so much, but I don't think it is a point to brag about. We are by far the richest nation in the world, after all. Bragging about how much we donate/loan etc. seems asinine.

For real mate ... I mean .... surprise ... surprise, the worlds richest nation donates the most to foreign aid, think about it, it makes sense. I think it's great the US donates that much, but remember, it's not as if other countries also have the same amount of money as the US and are just hoarding it.

[martinexsquaddie]

Tane had a brilliant idea if Bush had gone to SF school the bit about dealing with the natives not the running and shooting stuff. We probably would'nt be in this mess.
Bush personally seems to rub a lot of non-americans up the wrong way not a brilliant attrtibute for a world leader Bill would probably managed to get a coalition together to finsh saddam off if he thought it neede to be done. Bush may play well on fox news but most terrorists live in some other country so its probably easier to go after the bad guys if the other country leaders at least think your good guys

[Deuterium]

Well, are you talking about political(which implies domestic elections) or international affairs? Politically, here it's looking pretty bad. And Bush doesn't have a clue how to treat people from outside his geosocioeconomic-area. The President should have to go through SF School before taking office, because Bush simply insults the indigenous personnel, in this case, other heads of state. However, political situation is different from world situation, though they affect one another. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

And unlike the majority of the kids that post here GB COULD make it through the school. I'll take him on my team anyday. 99.9% of you wankers on this forum don't know **** about SF school. If you've been to the school, fine, express your opinion, but if you've gathered all your facts from playing CG or watching a few History channel specials...... Out......

[Trigger]

ducimullet wrote:

I belive the iraq mission could be salvaged. The USA is great for getting the preliminary combat and destruction done, but they cant effectively stabalize a nation. Japan/Germany omitted.
Salvaged? Is it broken? It's been 7 months you ignoramus.
Japan/Germany omitted? :cantbeli: Are you suffering from some kind of head wound?

Haiti explain please El Salvador explain please Iraq in progress Somalia already screwed up Liberia huh? Niciragua explain please Panama explain please Vietnam explain please
Those are nations you screwed up in an attempt to "fix" them It's easy to just parrot the same mantra over and over

No, we need your money, but we deffinetely dont need you in Iraq.
we?

I would have the G7 nations replace the US forces as peace keepers. Have a continual flow of american currency coming into to support the effort with no US personal in IRAQ thoughHahahaha!! yeah, right!. See, the iaqi people hate the us Oh, you've been on the ground there? when? You speak for all Iraqis, right?because its been spoon fed propaghanda by al-jazzera and sadaam for so long that they cant get it out of their system. They cant tolerate an American "occupaton". The iraqis will take what ever chance they get to rebel, kill, and hate the USA because its all they have ever knownNo, all they've known for the last 30+ years is torture, rape and murder at the hands of the guy we removed.

no seriously guys, is my proposal not a viable alternative?
Your 'proposal' is actually just internet trolling based on anti-American propaganda, lies, and a very narrow minded opinion. Take it somewhere else. No one here is interested.

buts its more than the bathists killing people because they ALLHuh? What planet are you from? hate the USA unfortunetely
Get real.

I think if the USA withdrew from Iraq in place of other western nations, yet continued a steady flow of currency into Iraq,the USA would gain some great international credit, disproving notions of imperialism.
In whose eyes? yours? and furthermore we don't have to disprove any notions. If some think we're imperialist then F**k 'em, the facts show otherwise.

I would not see them as cowards along the line of Somalia
Let me understand this perfectly. You're saying the Americans in Somalia were cowards? Yes? You are officially the most idiotic person, I've ever had the sad opportunity to interact with.
...and on a side note: Don't you ever start whining again about people insulting you or not taking your delusional ramblings seriously. You've done nothing but troll and flame other people's posts that had nothing to do with you. For someone who bitches so much about it, you launch an awful lot of first strikes.

[budanski]

Douchebag19=Preemptive Strike-outs

[Skaman]

It appears roughly half of the people thus far are upset with America or atlest hold some disatisfaction concerning American policy...

And this is generally a pro right website.

Im actully baffled. I expected the votes to be one sided, not divided amongst a variety...

[Fargin]

I'd really like to speak my mind, but I don't consider this thread to be constructive in any way.

[Skaman]

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/11/04112003142349.asp

[Trigger]

The poll, conducted last week by "The Washington Post" and the broadcaster ABC


the 7-month-old war
:roll:

[Skaman]

The poll, conducted last week by "The Washington Post" and the broadcaster ABC


the 7-month-old war
:roll:

propaghanda?

[Ratamacue]

As someone who lives in the US and interacts with Americans daily, I can tell you that poll is...incorrect.

[Skaman]

As someone who lives in the US and interacts with Americans daily, I can tell you that poll is...incorrect.

Which one, mine, or the one provided by the washington post?

[Ratamacue]

Washington Post. I won't deny the one here because this is a multi-national forum and not done by the media.

[Skaman]

Washington Post. I won't deny the one here because this is a multi-national forum and not done by the media.

Can you provide me with some alternative surveys done recently that disprove the one provided by the Washington post? Keep in mind, that unless you interact with Americans all throughout the ENTIRE nation, you cannot tell me you understand the general American mentality.....

[Ratamacue]

Surveys are BS and everyone knows it. You can't express the feelings of an entire nation without surveying the entire nation, and by the time you're done with that, the people who were around during the war would all be dead. ;)

I lived in New York until July of this year. I now live in Colorado. One area is very liberal, the other is very conservative, and I can tell you that the majority of Americans in both areas are for the war, though there were more anti-war in New York.

[James]

Well, are you talking about political(which implies domestic elections) or international affairs? Politically, here it's looking pretty bad. And Bush doesn't have a clue how to treat people from outside his geosocioeconomic-area. The President should have to go through SF School before taking office, because Bush simply insults the indigenous personnel, in this case, other heads of state. However, political situation is different from world situation, though they affect one another. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

And unlike the majority of the kids that post here GB COULD make it through the school. I'll take him on my team anyday. 99.9% of you wankers on this forum don't know **** about SF school. If you've been to the school, fine, express your opinion, but if you've gathered all your facts from playing CG or watching a few History channel specials...... Out......

What's the minimum GT score for SF? :P

[Skaman]

These here are for Trigger, as he so kindly requested me to EXPLAIN ceratin circumstances in detail.

1953: US overthrows prime minister Mossadeq of Iran, US then installs Shah as dictator.

1954-US overthrows democratically elected President of Guatemela, 200,000 civillians are consecutively killed.

1963-1975 America backs assisination of South Vietnimese President Diem.To prevent spread of Communism threw a domino effect, they invade North Vietnam and 4 million people in South East Asia die. Communism remained.

1973-US stages coup in Chile, democratically elected President Salvator Allende is assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet is installed.
5,000 Chilienas are inturn murdered

1977-US backs military rulers of El Salvador, selling them American made weapons. 70,000 Salvadorans are killed, many by US sold weapons.

1980's-US trains osama bin laden in ways to kill soviets during Afghanistan occupation. CIA provides him wth 3 billion US

1981-US trains and funds "contras", 30,000 Nicirauguans die

1982-US provides billions in foreign aid to Sadam to sponsor his war againt Iran. Weapons are inturn used on his own people.

1987-Disatisfied with Sadams actions, US sells Iran Weapons to be used againt Iraq military.

1989-Noriega, a CIA agent begins serving as president of Panama. USA discourages this. USA eventully steps in to remove him, resulting in 3,000 Panamanian deaths.

1990-Iraq invades kuwait using billions provided by USA 8 years prior.

1991-USA steps in defeating Sadam, fearing Iraq is a chllange to their Saudi oil reserves. Kuwait is used as a "blank check". Kuwait inturn becomes an American puppet with a hardly functioning democracy.

1992-US puts embargoes against Haitian goverement. Currency is inflated, jobs are lost, food runs out. USA steps in to restore order. USA polices for a few months, then leaves before a formal infrastructure is established. Problems return to Haiti.

1998-Sudan-USA bombs supposed weapons factory, which apparently was making Aspirin.

1991-current- Bombs are dropped on Iraq continually, and sanctions are places on Iraqi goverment. 500,000 die from bombing and sanctions

2000-USA gives taliban ruled goverment in Afghanistan $245 in goverment aid.

2001-Osama bin laden uses CIA training and mass amount of American "aid" to plan and carry out the 911 tragedies. 3,000 people are killed


I hope that satisfies you Trigger.

[Skaman]

I think thats enough evidence no?

[Fargin]

In case they ignore you, I recommend a hungerstrike. p-)

[Skaman]

hmm, these poll statsitics are interesting. Especially for a PRO MILITARY website generally populated by American citiizens. :lol:

[Flagg]

Ducimus.....attempting to derive anything to hang your hat on from such a small sample size(37 when I wrote this post) is pointless......by the way...how many times did you vote? Just kidding

[NcDeuce]

Also a good # of Europeans, Canadians, Asians, and even some from the Mid-East.

[Skaman]

discontent is rising.....hmm, maybe my article on american foul ups helped.... hmmm

[NcDeuce]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Allied_Canada/b_jtf01.thumb.jpg
Ducimus is in white.

[Trigger]

http://mikoga.image.pbase.com/u12/ookonline/small/19920233.0wnedshot.jpg

[WARPIG]

If this is a source for fluffing dicamus19's "worldly" ego. Just play along guys... he needs it.

[Skaman]

50 votes. Thats a good chunk, with some interesting results boys. ;)

[Ratamacue]

It's not really that interesting. It's generally split right down the middle, and remember that about half the forum is American and the other half is generally European. Two very different perspectives on the US and how it operates.

I was talking to my brother earlier, who's a political science major. He pointed out some interesting ideas. In the history of civilization, there have been very, very, VERY few wars between democratic countries. The only possible way to achieve peace in the middle east (an extremely important area of the world today) is to slowly bring democracy and stability there. Iraq was a big threat to stability in the middle east. And now that the people of Iraq have been freed from the tyranny they've known their whole life, it's highly possible they see the US as just another regime. But you can't look at the country now, you have to look at it 5 years from now, when it will be rebuilt and a stable government will most likely have been installed (nothing about puppet governments, we don't know how it will turn out yet).

Now, many of you will say "but Iraq is such a rich source of oil and an easy target and that's why the US attacked." Well, if the US is to bring democracy to the middle east, possibly by force if necessary, they're going to need resources like oil as well as staging points like Afghanistan and Iraq.

Just some thoughts, later fellas.

[StarvingStudent47]

I was talking to my brother earlier, who's a political science major. He pointed out some interesting ideas. In the history of civilization, there have been very, very, VERY few wars between democratic countries.

I'm not aware of a single example in all of human history.

[Ratamacue]

That's what I thought, but I'm not too familiar with some countries in wars and their histories, so better to be safe and say "very few" than "none" and look like an idiot.

[wholagun]

Sure the Americans are the superior force in this... and Denmark the smallest. But we're supporting them. As soldiers, as Allied, we will fight. Not for world peace. That will never happen. But for a world worth living in!

That was beautiful (wiping tear from eye). :D

[StarvingStudent47]

hmm, these poll statsitics are interesting. Especially for a PRO MILITARY website generally populated by American citiizens. :lol:

Huh?

The pro-America crowd is winning 33 to 19. And even if the anti-American votes were leading, that would only prove that there are a lot of idiots and trolls on the internet ;)

[Skaman]

I was talking to my brother earlier, who's a political science major. He pointed out some interesting ideas. In the history of civilization, there have been very, very, VERY few wars between democratic countries.

I'm not aware of a single example in all of human history.

1.Canada vs USA, war of 1812. We won ;)
I wouldent say a "true" democracy was in place, but close enough.

2.England vs. Dutch in the Boer war

3.England vs. Argentina....this is a guess, but was Argentina not a democracy during the Falklands war? Correct me if Im wrong...

Rememeber, democracy is a very young ideal that ony began to take shape post enlightenment.

you tool, check your sources before you claim there is not a single example.

[StarvingStudent47]

you tool, check your sources before you claim there is not a single example.

That little jab would have a whole lot more moral weight if you weren't a plagarist.

Actually, Ratamacue and I both avoided saying "there is no example." Instead, we said that we weren't aware of any. Neither of us claimed to be completely positive on the issue.

But thanks for reminding me about the War of 1812. I'll have to ponder that a bit. But Canada didn't win it. First off, Canada wasn't independent yet, so the most you could say was "the British won." And since the Treaty of Ghent merely re-established the pre-war status quo (the British wanted major territorial concessions but failed to win any), and the British got massacred at the Battle of New Orleans (perhaps the most lopsided battle in human history?), I think it's safe to say that the USA didn't lose.

The main claim to a British success would be based on the British campaign in 1814 which led to burning the White House. But that momentum was reversed by the British defeat at Fort McHenry (the inspiration for "The Star-Spangled Banner"), and the complete rout of the British Navy at the Battle of Lake Champlain. Claiming that the British won the War of 1812 because they burned DC is like claiming that Napolen's invasion of Russia was successful ;)

[Beowulf]

Rememeber, democracy is a very young ideal that ony began to take shape post enlightenment.

ahemm....athens... cough...cough

[Skaman]

Gimme a break, the Greeks HARDLY had a democracy. Their system was based on patronage and male chuvenuism. Nice step forward, but real democracy did not formulate for 1000 years later.

Democracy itself is a word of greek origin-"goverment ruled by the people"

This was higly idealistic and not ture for its time. The enlightenment improved on democracy, thus resulting in what we have today amongst most western nations. Therefore, I am just in my reasoning that democracy did not TRULY begin until post enlightenment...

[Beowulf]

you said democracy only became an ideal post enlightenment. So post 18th century....that's a ridiculous statement.


but real democracy did not formulate for 1000 years later

Athens had its democracy approximately 500 BC 1000 years later would be 500AD. At leat be consistent in your ingorance...which is it: post enlightenment or 500AD?

Athens is widely regarded amongst academics as the first democracy, albeit not a Pure Democracy, although a pure democracy has never existed....just focus on your technical writing.

[Skaman]

you said democracy only became an ideal post enlightenment. So post 18th century....that's a ridiculous statement.


but real democracy did not formulate for 1000 years later

Athens had its democracy approximately 500 BC 1000 years later would be 500AD. At leat be consistent in your ingorance...which is it: post enlightenment or 500AD?

Athens is widely regarded amongst academics as the first democracy, albeit not a Pure Democracy, although a pure democracy has never existed....just focus on your technical writing.



greek "democracy" roughly 300 bc

Europoen enlightenment, roughly 1700's and 1800's

[Skaman]

61 percent of the members are disatisfied or are somewhat happy to say the least.

[Ratamacue]

62% said either "no" or "I am generally pleased," actually. Check your numbers again.

[Prima]

See, the iaqi people hate the us because its been spoon fed propaghanda by al-jazzera and sadaam for so long that they cant get it out of their system. They cant tolerate an American "occupaton". The iraqis will take what ever chance they get to rebel, kill, and hate the USA because its all they have ever known.


Keep in mind, that unless you interact with Americans all throughout the ENTIRE nation, you cannot tell me you understand the general American mentality.....

How about, keep in mind, that unless you interact with Iraqis all throughout the ENTIRE nation, you cannot tell me you understand the general Iraqi mentality.

[WARPIG]

I was talking to my brother earlier, who's a political science major. He pointed out some interesting ideas. In the history of civilization, there have been very, very, VERY few wars between democratic countries.

I'm not aware of a single example in all of human history.

1.Canada vs USA, war of 1812. We won ;)
I wouldent say a "true" democracy was in place, but close enough.

2.England vs. Dutch in the Boer war

3.England vs. Argentina....this is a guess, but was Argentina not a democracy during the Falklands war? Correct me if Im wrong...

Rememeber, democracy is a very young ideal that ony began to take shape post enlightenment.

you tool, check your sources before you claim there is not a single example.
You moron! Check your own resources before you spew your useless factoids!

1.Canada vs USA, war of 1812. We won ;) US vs the Kingdom of England you idiot. The war was in Europe and some of the fighting was in the US and Canada about a paper blockade. Big history note because of the involvement of Tecomseh.

2.England vs. Dutch in the Boer war ... guess what.. Kingdom of England.. again.

3.England vs. Argentina....this is a guess, but was Argentina not a democracy during the Falklands war? Correct me if Im wrong...you are.. and I will.. Argenta was ruled by military junta. The junta was abandoned after the Argentinian military failed and democracy was adopted.
Leave it to dicamus19 to piece together trivia in an attempt to sharpshoot someones theory. Another pitifully ignorant display at Anti-US rhetoric.
RAt.. your brother's theory is pretty sound. If this idiot is having to dig into his 6th grade history notes to try and find some conflicting info.. I would tend to believe your brother. Turning Iraq into a democracy is going to help stablize the Middle East in the long run. Those of us commited to doing that.. well, historically meet with criticism.. Old news.

[California Joe]

Jesus Christ, now duci has infected Warpig with his anti grammatical virus.

[Deuterium]

See, the iaqi people hate the us because its been spoon fed propaghanda by al-jazzera and sadaam for so long that they cant get it out of their system. They cant tolerate an American "occupaton". The iraqis will take what ever chance they get to rebel, kill, and hate the USA because its all they have ever known.


Keep in mind, that unless you interact with Americans all throughout the ENTIRE nation, you cannot tell me you understand the general American mentality.....

How about, keep in mind, that unless you interact with Iraqis all throughout the ENTIRE nation, you cannot tell me you understand the general Iraqi mentality.

I sure hope Duci read this one...nah hoping too much.

[WARPIG]

If the best criticism I get is that my grammer sucks because of the overuse of ....... well, thanks..... it says .... a lot.
BTW what other mistakes did you find, Joe? My english grammar is well above most of the posts here. I don't include the second language members either. Is my grammar all that bad Joe? Educate me. If your just being anal though, run my comments through spell check if you want. I write and speak pretty clearly.

[California Joe]

Hehehe, actually I like reading your posts pal. I also like that you get bent at me everytime I give you some ****. No offense. Honest. ;)

[WARPIG]

when do you give me ****?? I only noticed your name on this last one.
Don't fling poo without expecting to get it flung back. ;) I think confucius once said that.

[California Joe]

That's it. SLAP FIGHT!!!!!!

[StukaJr]

What is up with posters resurecting old posts, like this for example?

Is it a fad or a click thing, like PKM, RMM or Offtopic whoring?

Just interested... Do I win a prize?

[Hydro]

This was worth it just to see Douchimus19's posts.

[Death.]

Someone seemed to have a stick up their ass.