Awesome IAF F-15 pics in a UK air show............ [Archive]

View Full Version : Awesome IAF F-15 pics in a UK air show............

IDFM203

11-04-2003, 10:16 PM

These pics were taken in 2001 at the Waddington International Airshow in Thunder City, UK ……..were any of our UK members on this board at that air show?!?

http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/f15is.jpg
http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/f15i244noseon.jpg
http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/f15i269static.jpg
http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/f15ibrake.jpg
http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/f15ifly.jpg

and my two favorite pictures............

http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/f15iland.jpg
http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/flares.jpg

Now for details and of the show and the interesting story behind Israel’s involvement there.....

Days of Thunder

Massive thunderstorms greeted the arrival of the Israeli Air Force F15Is to RAF Waddington during the evening of Tuesday 26 June - it was as if Ra'am (raw-am'), the God of Thunder, was welcoming his offspring. The fact that the three Ra'ams (Thunders) were there at all was a coup for the Airshow organiser Paul Byram, who had pulled off something that so far no other European Airshow has managed to do - a full flying demonstration by this operational Israeli strike fighter.

Indeed, such was the originality of the act that the Israelis themselves had no display routine for the F15I, so one had to be devised from scratch, commencing less than three weeks before the airshow date. A stunning rehearsal involving the release of flares was practised on the Wednesday and Thursday, but the flares had to go as they are officially classified as a weapon and thus their release over the airfield was too sensitive an issue to be allowed by the display authorisation committee. Still, the displays given by a Major (who cannot be named apparently) on the Sunday were the highlight for many, a powerful yet graceful routine shading the American F15 ‘displays’ of late. With a typical inert weapons load attached, it wasn't officially designated a flying ‘display’, but a ‘role demonstration’ with some pretty good display manoeuvres rolled in...the take-off literally scorched the runway. The Major said that "Display flying is eight minutes of real pleasure. When you are flying a combat sortie, all your capability is focussed on carrying out your mission - flying the aircraft is instinctive. In a display, I must concentrate on showing the aircraft's capabilities while following all the rules established to make the display safe. It's a completely different skill."

Many were disappointed that the display was only flown on the Sunday, but this was the Israelis' choice as Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath and so no 'work' can be done. To make up for it they asked to fly twice on Sunday
It had been a long road in securing the Israelis. An invite was sent early in the year by the RAF's Chief of the Air Staff as a return gesture for the participation of a Tornado GR1 display in Israel a couple of years ago. To the surprise of many the invite was met with unbridled enthusiasm, despite the troubles afflicting the Middle East at the present time. Even more of a surprise was the offer to send no less than three F15I Thunders, plus a Special Ops C130, and that they wanted to fly the Ra'am...The only problem the airshow office faced was the ability to officially announce it, as Ministerial approval was needed and there was an election about to happen. So, in the end it sort of 'leaked out', after much speculation in the enthusiast circle as to what the 'special feature' may be. Supported by two Boeing 707 support aircraft, a tanker and a transport, the Thunders and C130 arrived early on 26 June, to kick the airshow week into action with a 'bang'.
Such was the in-bred security ethos of the Israelis that even when asked and then told which squadron they were from, they still declined to confirm the information! This didn’t mean that they were uncommunicative or unfriendly - far from it, as freebies were handed out with pleasure, it’s just that when it came to hard facts, little was divulged! It was thought that guards were to be posted twenty-four hours a day around the Thunders, but in the event no special measures were taken and the jets received the usual level of attention as any other visiting NATO aircraft would.

for more pics and other things click on this....
http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow01/waddo/waddo.htm

Shalom :D

marktigger

11-05-2003, 04:23 AM

nice pics

The Arabs cane loose wars time and agian......Israel can only loose once

UoUo

11-05-2003, 05:42 AM

Even not once ;)

IDFM203

11-28-2003, 12:25 PM

Just found a nice video clip with good sound that had this Israeli F15I at this air show............

(Just note that like the article said “The fact that the three Ra'ams (Thunders) were there at all was a coup for the Airshow organiser Paul Byram, who had pulled off something that so far no other European Airshow has managed to do - a full flying demonstration by this operational Israeli strike fighter.
Indeed, such was the originality of the act that the Israelis themselves had no display routine for the F15I, so one had to be devised from scratch, commencing less than three weeks before the airshow date. A stunning rehearsal involving the release of flares was practised on the Wednesday and Thursday, but the flares had to go as they are officially classified as a weapon and thus their release over the airfield was too sensitive an issue to be allowed by the display authorisation committee)

So the aerial display was still impressive but not as impressive as it could have been if it were allowed to do what its trained and capable of doing……….but still an impressive display!!! :D

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/files/F15I.mpeg

shalom :D

usa320

11-28-2003, 12:42 PM

I love the F-15I...granted it isnt as good as the F-15E as far as payload and avionics, but the paintjob is one of the best looking around, and the avionics are IMHO better than the F-16's.

IDFM203

11-28-2003, 01:08 PM

I love the F-15I...granted it isnt as good as the F-15E as far as payload and avionics, .uhh your not exactly correct here..........

In January of 1994 the F-15E was chosen as the IAF's fighter of the future, a role for which the F-16 and F-18 had also been vying for quite some time. Heyl Ha'avir (IAF)decided to purchase 21 planes, at a price of just over $2 billion. These were basically E models that had been slightly modified, and marked 'F-15I' - with the 'I' standing for Israel. In 1995, Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Yitzhak Rabin approved the purchase of 4 more planes.

Several modifications had been carried out in the Ra'am(F15I), in order to meet Heyl Ha'avir's(IAF) unique needs and specifications. For instance - the plane is characterized by greater takeoff weight and flight range than the other F-15 models, and is equipped with unique systems manufactured by Israel's defence industries, including an EW suite designed and built by Elisra specifically for the F-15I. Due to the modifications made in it, the Ra'am is regarded as being the most advanced of the F-15 models. Like the F-15E, it is a tandem seater, with the pilot concentrating on flying the plane and releasing weapons, while the WSO controls the guided munitions from the moment of release until they hit the target.

If anything the F15I is a slightly better plane then the E version!!

For more reading and some more pics click......
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-15i/F-15I.html

shalom :D

Uncle Chô

11-28-2003, 02:28 PM

Waddington Air Show is not as popular as the RAF Fairford " Royal International Air Tattoo " (without doubt the best and the biggest military Airshow in the world in term of variety and aircrafts attendance).

One strange and unusual aspect of the demo is the use of inert Mk82 bombs on public air display... I have never seen that before.

Speaking of unusual, I have been told the IAF could be coming back to Fairford next year, together with RSAF Tornados and a pair of USAF...F-22 :D

:roll: But operational considerations could change plans by then...

perdurabo

11-28-2003, 02:39 PM

hmm on Radom2003 was 3 F-15 from Israel i don't remember wersion or if they made any flights during show but they flew above Aushvitz/Birkenau (Polish MiG29 was supose to do it with them but this day was bad weather so russian planes can't fly:])

Radom is in Poland witch is in Europe ... :)

Ratamacue

11-28-2003, 02:52 PM

S'13

11-28-2003, 03:21 PM

I love the F-15. I remember watching a show about the F-15 that told this story of an Israeli pilot during a war who was able to fly his F-15 all the way back to base and land it after his right wing was blown off by a missile...amazing.

I'm not surprised at the pilots accomplishment of flying a one winged aircraft back to base. Because after all, this is an IAF pilot were talking about. ;)

IDFM203

11-28-2003, 04:16 PM

I love the F-15. I remember watching a show about the F-15 that told this story of an Israeli pilot during a war who was able to fly his F-15 all the way back to base and land it after his right wing was blown off by a missile...amazing. Actually it wasn’t during a war but it was during a training exercise. It’s actually a very famous incident. Here is a article I found (take special note of the bold paragraphs on the bottom as well as what the manufacturer of the aircraft said about it.)

F15 Wingless Landing

On May 1st. 1983, a dogfight training took place between two F-15D's and four A-4N Skyhawks over the skies of the Negev desert in Israel.

The F-15D (#957, nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks) was used for the training of a new pilot in the squadron. Here is the description of the event as described in "Pressure Suit": "

At some point I collided with one of the Skyhawks, at first I didn't realize it. I felt a big strike, and I thought we passed through the jet stream of one of the other aircraft. Before I could react, I saw the big fire ball created by the explosion of the Skyhawk.

The radio started to deliver calls saying that the Skyhawk pilot has ejected, and I understood that the fire ball was the Skyhawk, that exploded, and the pilot was ejected automatically. There was a tremendous fuel stream going out of the wing, and I understood it was badly damaged.

The aircraft flew without control in a strange spiral. I re-connected the electric control to the control surfaces, and slowly gained control of the aircraft until I was straight and level again. It was clear to me that I should eject. When I gained control I said :

"Hey, wait, don't eject yet!". No warning light was on and the navigation computer worked as usual; I just needed a warning light in my panel to indicate that I missed a wing..." The instructor ordered me to eject.

The wing is a fuel tank, and the fuel indicator showed 0.000 so I assumed that the jet stream sucked all the fuel out of the other tanks. However, I remembered that the valves operate only in one direction, so that I might have enough fuel to get to the nearest airfield and land. I worked like a machine, wasn't scared and didn't worry. All I knew was: as long as the sucker flies, I'm gonna stay inside. I started to decrease the airspeed, but at that point one wing was not enough.

So I went into a spin down and to the right. A second before I decided to eject, I pushed the throttle and lit the afterburner. I gained speed and thus got control of the aircraft again. Next thing I did was lowering the arresting hook.

A few seconds later I touched the runway at 260 knots, about twice the recommended speed, and called the tower to erect the emergency recovery net. The hook was torn away from the fuselage because of the high speed, but I managed to stop 10 meters before the net. I turned back to shake the hand of my instructor, who urged me to eject, and then I saw it for the first time - no wing

The IAF (Israeli Air Force) contacted McDonnell Douglas and asked for information about the possibility to land an F-15 with one wing . MD replied that this is aero-dynamically impossible, as confirmed by computer simulations... Then they received the photo.... After two months the same F-15 got a new wing and returned to action. This is what "Flight international, 8 June 1985" wrote about the incident:

"The most outstanding Eagle save was by a pilot from a foreign air force. During air combat training his two seater F-15 was involved in a mid-air collision with an A-4 Skyhawk. The A-4 crashed, and the Eagle lost its right wing from about 2ft. outboard. After some confusion between the instructor who said eject, and the student who outranked his instructor and said no, the F-15 was landed at its desert base. Touching down at 290 kt, the hook was dropped for an approach and engagement. This slowed the F-15 to 100 kt, when the hook weak link sheared, and the aircraft was then braked conventionally.

It is said that the student was later demoted for disobeying his instructor, then promoted for saving the aircraft. McDonnell Douglas attributes the saving of this aircraft to the amount of lift generated by the engine intake/body and "a hell of a good pilot" .
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing1.jpg
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing2.jpg
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/f15wing.asp

shalom :D

Adri

11-28-2003, 05:48 PM

Polish MiG29 was supose to do it with them but this day was bad weather so russian planes can't fly:]

hehe try to tell that to an SU-27 "flanker B" pilot and you are going to get your ass kicked ;)

but back to topic:
nice pics, but is it normal to have the combat flap up during take off ?
(the thing stiking up from the plane ;) )
humm...well I ges it is normal then...

but, bouth the F-16 and the F-15 can take G8 turns, an we all know that allmost every countries have "moded" their F-16 diffrently, so isn't it wrong to say that the F-15 is better than the F-16 ?

IDFM203

11-28-2003, 06:01 PM

but, bouth the F-16 and the F-15 can take G8 turns, an we all know that allmost every countries have "moded" their F-16 diffrently, so isn't it wrong to say that the F-15 is better than the F-16 ? I don’t know if this was directed towards me, but all I said was that the F15I is slightly better then the F15E.... Besides Israel has both the most advanced F15’S(F15I) and now the most advanced F16’S (F16I) so either way this “debate” doesn’t matter much in Israel’s case :D

Oh and of course it has the added advantage of its Israeli pilots ;) :D

Shalom :D

wholagun

11-28-2003, 06:05 PM

WOW.. If I was head of a military I would buy all Israeli equipment, its all battle tested and of the higest quality. You can't go wrong buying Isaeli. Just amazing. woot

Hey those are the CFT's fuel chamers.

Why does Israel need F16 that can hit targets in Iran when it has the F15I which has greater range? Why not just let the F15I's take care of Iran while the F16I's take care of matters more close to home?

IDFM203

11-28-2003, 06:17 PM

WOW.. If I was head of a military I would buy all Israeli equipment, its all battle tested and of the higest quality. You can go wrong buying Isaeli. Just amazing. woot yeah I agree woot

But it all boils down to money. Israel spends anywhere from 9 to 15 billion a year on defence and it gets 3 billion out of that from the U.S. (which is much appreciated!! :D )

Israel actually had built jets in the past (the kafir and nesher) and even developed from scratch and built three very advanced fighter jets on its own called the Lavi, but due to budgetary concerns and limitations it did not produce that plane other then those three.

With this present reality..........

In terms of fighter jets........American equipment + Israeli equipment = the best!!! (and unparalleled!! :D )

shalom :D

DLodge

11-28-2003, 11:39 PM

Actually, a pretty good case can be made that the current Suite 4E+ Strike Eagles are slightly superior to the Ra'am given that they include all the goodies the IAF had (DMS, EGI, NVG-cockpit etc.) and some nifty new systems (FDL) as well. Also, there were some "U.S. only" radar modes that were deleted from the Israeli APG-70s, and the reduced IAF patch map capability was only brought up to American levels a few years ago. With regards to LANTIRN, the USAF has recently procured a number of advanced LITENING ER targeting pods which offer significant advantages over the AN/AAQ-14. As far as EW set ups...it is impossible to discuss them due to an almost total lack of public information.
All in all, current USAF F-15E's are generally considered slightly superior to their Israeli cousins.

DLodge

11-28-2003, 11:50 PM

Sorry, I'm used to posting on military aviation forums.

DMS: digital mapping system
EGI: embedded GPS
FDL: fighter datalink

IDFM203

11-29-2003, 12:22 AM

Shalom DLodge :D

First I want to stress that I was not in the air force and as such most of what I brought down is public accessible knowledge.

Ok with that said. I hear what your saying but even after reading your post I havent seen your case made.
Heres why….

A, we have no way of confirming “U.S. only radar modes that were deleted from the Israeli APG70’s” for that seems highly unlikely.

B, Even if it were, the Israeli add ons and avionics makes up for that if that were the case.(in the F16I’s case Israeli companies and avionics made up 25 percent of the plane and it is not that far off with the F15I)

C, you didn’t mention any “Israeli only” avionics that are on this plane that the U.S. one doesn’t have. (For there are a lot of systems that both countries make that they both use in theirs respectively and due to OPSEC violations there is no way of discussing or knowing full details of them here on the net.)

D, the Israeli F15I has longer range.

C, Israeli pilots!! When were having a discussion of “slightly better” well considering the last Arial mock dog fights between both air forces and Israel's clear victory in them, well that’s a nice “add on” to have ;) :D .

Here is more of that article. (note, its a very general overview and not rich in specifics due to OPSEC rules)
Several modifications had been carried out in the Ra'am, in order to meet Heyl Ha'avir's(IAF) unique needs and specifications. For instance - the plane is characterized by greater takeoff weight and flight range than the other F-15 models, and is equipped with unique systems manufactured by Israel's defence industries, including an EW suite designed and built by Elisra specifically for the F-15I. Due to the modifications made in it, the Ra'am is regarded as being the most advanced of the F-15 models. Like the F-15E, it is a tandem seater, with the pilot concentrating on flying the plane and releasing weapons, while the WSO controls the guided munitions from the moment of release until they hit the target.
The Ra'am's advanced systems include an APG-70 radar with terrain mapping capability. The sharp picture that the APG-70 provides, regardless of weather conditions and light, makes it possible to locate targets that are otherwise very hard to find - i.e. missile batteries, tanks and structures - even under such adverse conditions as complete fog cover, heavy rain or moonless nights.
Another important system that the plane is equipped with is the LANTIRN, which makes it possible to acquire targets and lock guided munitions on them, in both day and nighttime. The LANTIRN system is comprised of a navigation pod and a guidance pod. The navigation pod holds a FLIR night vision sensor and a terrain-following radar, that enable the plane to fly at high speed at low altitude and warn of approaching obstacles. The guidance pod houses a FLIR sensor for locating targets in nighttime and a laser designator. The FLIR sensor makes it possible to follow targets at long range, the laser marker is used with laser-guided munitions.
The Ra'am is capable of carrying 4½ tons of fuel in its internal tanks, conformal tanks, and detachable tanks. The armaments it carries are positioned so that there is almost no disruption of the plane's aerodynamic shape - and no impeding of its performance. These factors combine with others to enable the Ra'am to fly to an unprecedented distance, one which was previously attained only by much larger bombers: about 4,450 km. With midair refueling, the range can be extended further.
The Ra'am is capable of carrying a very wide range of weapons. It is equipped with a 6 barrelled Vulcan 20 mm. cannon, and can carry different kinds of air-to-air missiles for self defence. Since its primary function is the attack of quality targets, the Ra'am is designed to carry various types guided missiles and bombs, as well as iron bombs. All in all, the plane can carry 11 tons of munitions.

What this article did not mention was also the Israeli python 4 and the new python 5 missle system as well as the DASH system that Israeli planes are equipped with.

So again all in all, the Israeli F15I is just slightly better then its U.S. cousin the F15E

I will end off with a repeat of what I said in my last post. In terms of fighter jets........American equipment + Israeli equipment = the best!!! (and unparalleled!! :D )

Shalom :D

DLodge

11-29-2003, 01:02 AM

Okay, so basically we can agree that, for all intents and purposes, the F-15I and the F-15E have just about the same capabilities. Any edge one version has is probably mitigated by something the other possesses. However, your inference that Israeli fighter pilots are superior to American fighter pilots cannot go unanswered (hafta uphold our honor!). Here is a quote taken from the post on another forum of an honest-to-goodness, 100% real, U.S. Navy F/A-18 Hornet pilot (he is commenting on an article):
The 10:1 kill ratio posted by the IAF is bogus for a couple of reasons. First the IAF set up the ROE for those engagements such that they were allowed BVR shots and the Navy/Marine Corps team was not. Secondly, the Hornets and Tomcats were flying from the boat and as such were on a fuel ladder that limited the amount of time they could spend in blower. To top it off the Hornets were configured double ugly (two external fuel tanks, one on the belly and one on a wing station) which imposes an AOA limit. The IAF was launching last minute from their own airfields and were typically in slick configurations. I think you will find that the ratios are more even when the rules of the fight are more even. I take nothing away from the IAF guys but I would put a top Air Farce or Navy pointy nosed dude against them anytime in a fair fight.
It is probably safe to assume that similar IAF claims regarding other exercises have also stretched the truth. And if you want to verify the identity of the poster for yourself, go to www.airwarriors.com and look up the posts of a fellow named HornetDrvr.
He may be partial, but I think this guy's comments are right on the money. I'd be willing to bet that most Israeli pilots would probably agree with him that IAF and U.S. fighter guys are more evenly matched than the press and the IAF usually make them out to be.
And thanks for the welcome :D

IDFM203

11-29-2003, 02:17 AM

Okay, so basically we can agree that, for all intents and purposes, the F-15I and the F-15E have just about the same capabilities. just about, BUT…… ;)

Any edge one version has is probably mitigated by something the other possesses. True as I explained above in my last post as to what Mitigating aspects that make the F15I a bit better then the F15E.

However, your inference that Israeli fighter pilots are superior to American fighter pilots cannot go unanswered (hafta uphold our honor!). I can most defiantly respect you for upholding your honour.

I think we are going to get along just fine for I always enjoy and respect one that upholds their nations honour in a respectful manner as do I try to do the same :D

Here is a quote taken from the post on another forum of an honest-to-goodness, 100% real, U.S. Navy F/A-18 Hornet pilot (he is commenting on an article):
The 10:1 kill ratio posted by the IAF is bogus for a couple of reasons. First the IAF set up the ROE for those engagements such that they were allowed BVR shots and the Navy/Marine Corps team was not. Secondly, the Hornets and Tomcats were flying from the boat and as such were on a fuel ladder that limited the amount of time they could spend in blower. To top it off the Hornets were configured double ugly (two external fuel tanks, one on the belly and one on a wing station) which imposes an AOA limit. The IAF was launching last minute from their own airfields and were typically in slick configurations. I think you will find that the ratios are more even when the rules of the fight are more even. I take nothing away from the IAF guys but I would put a top Air Farce or Navy pointy nosed dude against them anytime in a fair fight. well a couple of things. I have read a couple of articles about that and some pilot’s accounts and I have not seen that in that way. (Granted a lot were in Hebrew in Israeli newspapers, also alot is classfied and falls under OPSEC rules)

Secondly, even if what he said were true, the 10:1 Ratio where it was actually something like 220 Israeli victories to only 20 U.S. ones !! is simply way to high for his “excuses” to negate the implications of that awsome result.

Thirdly, most reports indicate that it was fair playing field once the actual engagements began, and for besides the Israeli pilots skills, this was also due to the Israeli’s having the Israeli DASH system and the latest Israeli python missile at the time, that also contributed to their great success.( so it wasnt only pilots skills but also systems comptition and in fact I belive after this, the U.S. incoporated the Israeli DASH systems into some of thier planes as well)

I believe it’s a fact that since ww2, Israel has the highest success rate in terms of percentages in Aerial dog fighting then any nation on earth!!

It is probably safe to assume that similar IAF claims regarding other exercises have also stretched the truth. at the same token its probably safe to assume that the U.S has scratched the truth. (that argument goes both ways my friend ;) )

No disrespect intended here (for I have full respect for the U.S. and its awesome military and thier personal, but….) this seems like a bit of “sour grapes” and spin on the part of the U.S. fighter pilot.

And if you want to verify the identity of the poster for yourself, go to www.airwarriors.com and look up the posts of a fellow named HornetDrvr.
I don’t doubt his authenticity (well I do a little ;) , but anyways.....)but without the Israeli pilots that were involved defending themselves on that forum I’d rather not even bother going at it with him (well ill check it out in general for it does seem like a nice site).

He may be partial, but I think this guy's comments are right on the money. I'd be willing to bet that most Israeli pilots would probably agree with him that IAF and U.S. fighter guys are more evenly matched than the press and the IAF usually make them out to be. I totally disagree for you know how pilots are ;) . I guarantee you that the U.S. pilots think even despite what happened that they are better (as we see this pilot trying to insinuate) and at the same token the Israeli’s think they are much better.

It is perhaps hard to tell but with Israel’s awsome combat record in Aerial dog fighting and with these mock battles success against the U.S. and others (the IAF also had these type of results aginst the german air force and a few others), well I think the clear edge is with Israeli pilots!! :D

And thanks for the welcome :D your welcome :D ………just curious are you a BTDT?? And if so where??

Shalom :D

DLodge

11-29-2003, 03:32 AM

I'll leave it at this: the IAF produces some of the best pilots in the world who, coincidentally, happen to have more combat experience than almost every other AF in the world by virtue of Israel's location. Likewise, the USAF and USN produce some of the best pilots in the world who don't get the dubious luxury of engaging in air combat because all their foes prefer to stay on the ground and save themselves for another day. I will even go so far as to concede that, because of its small size, the IAF can afford to be more selective in who it places in its cockpits. You could say that the talent in the U.S. is "watered down" as it is spread over a much larger force. However, gather the top pilots from Israel and America and they will be just about even.
As far as the 10:1 kill-ratio question, I'll agree that we cannot address it thanks to the absence of any concrete information. And I'll admit that, in general, the IAF has superior equipment.
But you boys had better watch out because the F-15Cs up in Alaska now have the AIM-9X/JHMCS, (V)2 radar, and PW-220 engines...pretty fearsome combo. And just wait'll 2005 when the F/A-22 comes online :P
Bottom line is we're both fighting the same enemy and the capabilities of one country benefit the other, especially since every time an American gets whipped by some IAF hotshot you can bet he's learning something to give him an edge next time!
Thanks for the lack of flaming by the way.

DLodge

11-29-2003, 03:33 AM

Not a BTDT by the way, maybe someday...

IDFM203

11-29-2003, 04:38 AM

I agree with most of your last big post, just a few points that I need to clear up...........

I'll leave it at this: the IAF produces some of the best pilots in the world who, coincidentally, happen to have more combat experience than almost every other AF in the world by virtue of Israel's location. True, although the U.S. has had its share of combat in the past fifty years (since modern Israel's founding)as well (understatement!!)

I will even go so far as to concede that, because of its small size, the IAF can afford to be more selective in who it places in its cockpits. Actually with that type of argument, it should be the opposite for the one with the more people (the U.S.) is the one that has the luxury of being more selective for it has more to choose from, whereas the one with less doesn’t and might be forced to take what it has…now with that said, all that is in the principle, for in reality, the IAF is indeed more selective and it is one of the most selective (in terms of pilot selection) air forces in the world and that is due to the IAF’s emphasis on pure quality for it can never match the Arabs numerical strength and as such the IAF places most of its emphasis on top quality and does not water down whatsoever that requirement at all in any circumstances.

The IAF pilots selection procces and drop out rate is actually the highest in the IDF, even higher then the drop our rate for the top SF units.

You could say that the talent in the U.S. is "watered down" as it is spread over a much larger force. However, gather the top pilots from Israel and America and they will be just about even. Well I disagree for I feel Israeli pilots have the edge as I explained before as to why (The mock exercises and Israel’s success in it and the combat Aerial dog fighting supremacy that Israel has had)

But I guess for now well just have to agree to disagree ;)

As far as the 10:1 kill-ratio question, I'll agree that we cannot address it. well we did address it, I mean even the pilot doesn’t dispute that ratio, he just gives his “spin” on it and I don’t have the Israeli pilots here to counter point by point of what he said, but I think what I said before “even if what he said were true, the 10:1 Ratio (which this U.S. pilot does not dispute) where it was actually something like 220 Israeli victories to only 20 U.S. ones !! Is simply way to high for his “excuses” to negate the implications of that awesome result.” I think that is very cut and dry in support of my arguments!!

And just wait'll 2005 when the F/A-22 comes online :P yeah were waiting for that as well :D ......oh and Israel has observer status on that project so as usual now, that F-22 is going to have Israeli electronics and avionics on it as well :D

Bottom line is we're both fighting the same enemy and the capabilities of one country benefit the other, Amen!!.. Yeah I have also been saying that.

Like I said before, this “debate” is from a standpoint of friendship and mutual respect!! I just feel that Israeli planes and pilots are just a bit bette…………………………. :D

Thanks for the lack of flaming by the way. and thank you as well for your lack of flaming. I have made it very clear, that I treat people the way they treat me and you have come in here in a very respectful manner and made your points and for that you get my respect and although we might not agree (although I see you have come around to my point of view somewhat now ;) :D ) at least I know we can conduct ourselves respectfully. Actually you’re a bit of a fresh air on this forum, for usually most people resort to flames at the first sign of disagreement which you have not done.

shalom :D

Adri

11-29-2003, 05:56 AM

hmm, this looks like a "we have better fighters than you" topic ;)

but:
nobody knows before they have meet in an air to air combat p-)
(so YOU (not directed to any one) don't know who that are the best !)

Guttorm

11-29-2003, 10:21 AM

WOW.. If I was head of a military I would buy all Israeli equipment, its all battle tested and of the higest quality. You can't go wrong buying Isaeli. Just amazing. woot

Hehehee, Norwegian politician said that Norway was not to buy or sell militarysupplies from Israel due to the ongoing conflict...

Norwegian military officers were like, SURE! And bought the stuff behind the politicans back... :D You gotta love it... :D I know I did.. :D

I guess when the politicans were going through the military budget..
Politician: "Whats this post about 15 mill to Israel?"
Officer: "Uh... We bought... Toiletseats..."
Politician: "For 15 MILL!?"
Officer: "yeah... It's for the officers mess... They were coated in gold...*cough*"
Politician: "Oh, ok then"

We bought missiles and stuff... woot

perdurabo

11-29-2003, 11:06 AM

Polish MiG29 was supose to do it with them but this day was bad weather so russian planes can't fly:]

hehe try to tell that to an SU-27 "flanker B" pilot and you are going to get your ass kicked ;)

on ground or in the air? if in air i will agree i'm only poor glider pilot and now i can't fly beacuse doctors said that i can't (stupid medical tests like for some astronauts or fighterpilots) on land maybe or maybe no :D

DLodge

11-30-2003, 04:20 AM

IDFM203

12-01-2003, 01:02 PM

Okay, I found this:
http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Journal/Journal.In.aspx?lang=HE&folderID=537&subfolderID=539&docfolderID=541&lobbyID=50&docID=19167
And this:
http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/24.Sep.1999/News/Article-3.html

I cannot read Hebrew but I've been told that the first one presents a balanced report of the exercise. The other is a Jeruslaem Post article on the same topic. ok the first article is a good one but talks in generalities and doesn’t really shed any more light onto this discussion. I mean no where does it even have a tally of 40:1 or 10:1 or any number. All it does is talk about some previous exercises and about this one and it has both sides talk about how much of a positive and learning experience it was for both (which I agree on)

As for the second article, well I will get into it a bit later on in this post..

The Hornet pilot probably did not reject the 40:1 claim because the disadvantages (you call them "excuses") the U.S. forces were at made such a conclusion inevitable. The United States rarely ever plays "fair" in these types of exercises; i.e. our planes are almost always handicapped. well I doubt the USAF are going to play less fair to allow the IAF to “win” for its not like the IAF needs this to boost its morale or anything like that, in fact against top air forces, both sides will play it as hard as possible for its at that level, that the real learning comes into play.

It seems very implausible that the U.S. air force will try to make it handicapped in order for the IAF to have that result.

It makes for better training, for one thing. Sometimes these limits are so strict that they drastically affect the outcome of the exercise. To prove this point I have a quote from an American F-15E pilot (taken from www.f-15e.net) describing the events that transpired during Anatolian Eagle 2002, where he flew with TAF and UAE forces: listen, to try to compare the USAF attitudes and preparation in the way it had its exercises with the UAE and TAF to Israel is laughable and it’s a non comparison. A, there are many advantages in letting the UAE and the TAF winning and at least thinking it is. That’s because it wants them to buy their air craft. The UAE was considering buying the euro fighting but yet it didn’t. Israel on the other hand is going to buy US regardless.

Secondly, it’s a non comparison, for the UAE and the TAF air forces are not the most experienced or on a high level and it is a friendly ally thing to do to make it a less even playing field in terms of these exercises and especially with the UAE where it was U.S, pilots that trained them. Israel is atop quality air force as is the U.S. and for training to learn better tactics, you need both to operate at its best and only then can you learn as to what your advantages and weakness are and how to improve upon that knowledge.

The purpose of joint exercises has never been to prove who is "best" and who is "worst," it is to improve the performance of both sides. I agree a hundred percent here but the medias and the average citizen can dabble in that and that is what we are doing here

“The Jerusalem Post article says:
Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own.”
Notice it says "one of the exercises." They aren't referring to the entire operation, just one of the engagements, probably the one that restricted the American forces the most. and here you go assuming when you say probably. Again we don’t know of any restrictions and if there were any, if this was one of them.

Although in dog fighting 40 to one is bit high to easily wipe off as restriction excuses for at the end of the day, these happened once both planes engaged in the air and everything else is somewhat inconsequential to that action and result.

Perhaps the next day the U.S. went out and downed a whole lot of IAF planes! well from what’s public knowledge, the total of those exercises was 220 (U.S.) aircraft for the loss of just 20 (israel) of its own.” So most probably the U.S. didn’t.

Also why would you now assume that if as you say they have restrictions, It seems like your graphing for straws here.

”The JPost article also includes:
It said that the results have not been officially published "to save the reputations of the US Navy pilots."
Bull****, the results are NEVER officially published because they don't mean a thing.

If you can show me concrete proof, from a legitimate source, that Israeli pilots posted such astounding numbers against Americans in a fair and balanced exercise I'll be willing to admit that I am wrong. so is the U.S. based Air Force Monthly a good source???

What you have to understand it that Jerusalem got most of its information from a U.S. air force magazine!!!

Here is an excerpt from the Jerusalem post on from right above the ones that you posted down here.

A recent joint exercise between the IAF and US Navy Sixth Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a thorough routing of the US pilots, according to the latest edition of Air Force Monthly.
The American-based magazine said the exercise in question took place in the Negev skies and involved engagements between IAF F-16s and US Navy F-14s and F/A-18s.
So Israel did not publish this nor did the Israeli pilots brag about this for they would never do any such thing. In fact I remember at the time, that in most Israeli papers it was very general in that just both had exercises, it only came out later that what happened.

Secondly nothing was officially published for the IAF did not publish that but rather some IAF source, most probably one who witnessed it, talked to this U.S. magazine.

I said it before and I'll say it again; the top fighter pilots from the IAF are equal to the top fighter pilots from the USAF, USN, and USMC, or the RAF, Luftwaffe, and some other air forces for that matter. true I agree with this. Ok this is what I believe As a whole, Israeli pilots are better and are in fact the best in the world. Does that mean that every single Israeli pilot is better then every single U.S. pilot?? Of course not, but as a group, in percentage terms, Israel has the highest percentage of the best fighter pilots in the world, bar none.

That’s what I believe and it is in no way at all based on this one exercise but rather on the IAF modern combat experience, which has led me to that conclusion.

To end off, again I love and respect the U.S. and its awesome military and their personal and I even go as far as to say that the U.S. military is the best military ever assembled, bar none. BUT that is as a whole, when you look at some individual aspects such as pilots, well I think Israel has the better and there are some other small details where some other countries are better then certain individual aspects of the U.S. military.

shalom :D

Nizark

12-01-2003, 01:53 PM

f'kin A that is amazing! One helluva good propaganda picture that could make. One wing...Sha-frickin-lom to that

IDFM203

12-01-2003, 01:57 PM

f'kin A that is amazing! One helluva good propaganda picture that could make. One wing...Sha-frickin-lom to thathey what can I say, we are very proud of our pilots :D

Remember folks, this is a military forum where we discuss and debate things military so this is all that I am doing.

oh and that one wing thing is f'kin A amazing!! amen to that :D

"Sha-frickin-lom" ( I like that :D ) to you as well :D

DLodge

12-02-2003, 11:54 PM

There are some minor points I have to disagree with you on.

You said:

well I doubt the USAF are going to play less fair to allow the IAF to ?win? for its not like the IAF needs this to boost its morale or anything like that, in fact against top air forces, both sides will play it as hard as possible for its at that level, that the real learning comes into play.

It seems very implausible that the U.S. air force will try to make it handicapped in order for the IAF to have that result.
I think you don't have a very clear understanding of what good air forces do when they engage in exercises. The purpose of a training exercise is to gain experience, nothing else. They are like sports practices, the only goal is to improve. Winning and losing do not exist in the context of an exercise! The result is utterly irrelevant, in fact, usually there is no clear result. Squadrons often switch sides every few days to vary the training, the ROEs change, the goals change, one side often flies simulated enemy tactics instead of their own, etc. An exercise is not a competition, and it should never be thought of as one. You'll notice I expressed doubt that an IAF pilot ever made the statement in question to Air Forces Monthly because any pilot would know how stupid it is to say you've won something that is not a contest!

You said:

listen, to try to compare the USAF attitudes and preparation in the way it had its exercises with the UAE and TAF to Israel is laughable and it?s a non comparison. A, there are many advantages in letting the UAE and the TAF winning and at least thinking it is. That?s because it wants them to buy their air craft. The UAE was considering buying the euro fighting but yet it didn?t. Israel on the other hand is going to buy US regardless.
Don't you think that if the U.S. demolished the UAE with American aircraft that would make the UAE more likely to buy American aircraft? The fact that the U.S. graciously agreed to go along with their host's wishes respecting restrictions is proof that in a mature air force--like the IAF--there is no shame in "losing" an exercise, nor are we worried that it will reflect badly on our aircraft. Unfortunately some of our allies feel that they have to "win." An F-15E wizzo named Yeti describes this problem:

There was a huge gulf region exercise in '97 or '98 and just about everyone showed up. UAE, Saudi, Bahrain, etc etc. We were doomed to failure from the beginning though, since on the first day of the exercise, Kuwait provided red air AND most of the airspace and ranges. We went in and the F-15E's, being on the pointy end of the stick, pretty much shot down the entire Kuwaiti air force... Twice. The debrief was "normal", but on the next day just a few minutes before push time, the Kuwaitis held a real world air defense exercise. One hornet took off, flew one lap around the country, and landed.

You see, they had to save face and let us know who was in charge. We moved the air war part of the exercise out into the gulf and probably irritated Iran, but at that point we didn't care really. It was just interesting how Kuwait decided that it was better for them and the rest of the gulf countries to essentially halt the exercise and lose the training, in favor of the quite real and tangible necessity of maintaining prestige and saving face when engaged with US led forces.
You said:

Although in dog fighting 40 to one is bit high to easily wipe off as restriction excuses for at the end of the day, these happened once both planes engaged in the air and everything else is somewhat inconsequential to that action and result.
In response to that I refer you to the quote by the Hornet pilot and I give you another quote from Murph, an F-15E pilot, who has this to say:

Very often training scenario "kills" are utterly meaningless. The rules of a training fight can be set up so that a Sopwith Camel could "kill" an F-22, so to judge "kill" ratios without knowing the training restrictions is pointless.
And this is what Murph says about reporting the results of training exercises:

In addition, what appears in print about any military aviation topic, much less, a semi-sensitive subject like kill ratios, is often grossly wrong
Just so you know, I do think that the Israelis probably did a bit better than our Navy guys in that exercise in '99. For one thing, those were the dark days of the defense funding cutbacks, when training dollars were short. For another, the IAF was flying better equipped airplanes. However, I think trying to put that superiority in numbers is overly simplistic, counterproductive, and downright idiotic. Plus, do you really think that the IAF was 40X better than the U.S. Navy? Honestly?

Just had to get those arguments off my chest :) ! In conclusion: are IAF pilots very good? Yes. Are they so good that they would post 40 to 1 kill ratios in a fair fight? No. Should we even discuss kill ratios? No. Am I very glad that Israel is our ally? Emphatically yes!

And as soon as I'm done with all my schoolwork I'll get back to you regarding the F-16I and the Block 60 :P

IDFM203

12-03-2003, 03:33 AM

Alright IDF, I have to admit that I agree with your conclusion:

Ok this is what I believe As a whole, Israeli pilots are better and are in fact the best in the world. Does that mean that every single Israeli pilot is better then every single U.S. pilot?? Of course not, but as a group, in percentage terms, Israel has the highest percentage of the best fighter pilots in the world, bar none.
I basically said the same thing in an earlier post; you just can't argue with the superb selection/training IAF pilots get, as well as the real-world experience well all I can say is amen!!! woot :D

It's just a pet peeve of mine that some Israelis (not you, but some) talk about their pilots as if they're all superhuman gods who could single-handedly spank every other air force in the world with one hand tied behind their back. And irritating articles like the one in Air Forces Monthly (it's British by the way, and not a good source at all) just add fuel to the flame. listen I hear you but in truth you guys do the same thing. Believe me next to Israeli’s going on about their SF and their pilots, you guys are also the cockiest bastards on this planet!! ;)

I never met an American that did not first say that everything U.S. is beyond the best and that every unit and service can kick their foreign counterparts single handily with their hands tied behind their backs (not in those words but in that same tone!!).

Everyone has ornate pride in their respective services and that’s understandable, just when it comes to pilots (and SF, well that’s a whole other debate which we should not get into here) Israel has the best, bar none!!!! (Hey I couldn’t resist the SF thing, sorry ;) :D )

There are some minor points I have to disagree with you on, though :) hey we try but we cant agree on Everything now ;) …………..that’s ok though......... :D

I think you don't have a very clear understanding of what good air forces do when they engage in exercises. The purpose of a training exercise is to gain experience, nothing else. They are like sports practices, the only goal is to improve. Winning and losing do not exist in the context of an exercise! The result is utterly irrelevant, in fact, usually there is no clear result. Squadrons often switch sides every few days to vary the training, the ROEs change, the goals change, one side often flies simulated enemy tactics instead of their own, etc. An exercise is not a competition, and it should never be thought of as one. You'll notice I expressed doubt that an IAF pilot ever made the statement in question to Air Forces Monthly because any pilot would know how stupid it is to say you've won something that is not a contest! yes I agree with you that’s why I put “win” in quotation marks (go back and check my post before your response and you will see it), but these are exercises with both play out to the maximum in order to learn each others weaknesses and advantages and then later try to improve upon this. I fully understand that its not about winning or losing and that there is no official competition, I understand all that, BUT in the process there is a ratio of kills that occurs and while the pilots might not openly talk about it, the media and average citizens do (which is what we are doing). Like I said before I also doubt that it was a pilot that said it to the media, but it was rather some air force official (not a pilot) that witnessed it and said something.

Listen they both learned a lot from each other and that was the sole purpose of those exercises, BUT to us civilians and to the media, well that 220 to 20 ratio in Israel’s favour is defiantly something fun to talk about and debate.

Remember all this is in the spirit of freidnship and mutual respect!! :D

Its a argument amongst freinds, that is all ;) :D

"listen, to try to compare the USAF attitudes and preparation in the way it had its exercises with the UAE and TAF to Israel is laughable and it?s a non comparison. A, there are many advantages in letting the UAE and the TAF winning and at least thinking it is. That?s because it wants them to buy their air craft. The UAE was considering buying the euro fighting but yet it didn?t. Israel on the other hand is going to buy US regardless."

Don't you think that if the U.S. demolished the UAE with American aircraft that would make the UAE more likely to buy American aircraft? well first of all, I thought the UAE exercises were with the UAE having already American planes and their were up against the same plane. So in that scenario, its in the U.S. interests that UAE feel like they can compete with a U.S. jet and if they get their ass kicked well they might have their doubts.

Secondly I said that was not the only reason it was also as I said before “Secondly, it’s a non comparison, for the UAE and the TAF air forces are not the most experienced or on a high level and it is a friendly ally thing to do to make it a less even playing field in terms of these exercises and especially with the UAE where it was U.S, pilots that trained them. Israel is atop quality air force as is the U.S. and for training to learn better tactics, you need both to operate at its best and only then can you learn as to what your advantages and weakness are and how to improve upon that knowledge”

My point is that yes officially its not about winning and losing (well we citizens and media can speculate on that) but rather about learning and as such you cant compare UAE exercises with the U.S. to the U.S. ones with Israel for with the UAE I don’t think the U.S. is in it to learn anything (right??? ;) :roll: ) but with Israel, being that it’s a top quality air force, well when you are at your best and then you go up against the best, only then can you really learn as to what you true weaknesses and strengths are and then how to improve upon them.

You made the comparisons to the way the U.S. conducts its exercises with Israel to the way it does with UAE and all I am doing is showing that’s is a faulty comparison and that it is in fact a non-comparison

Very often training scenario "kills" are utterly meaningless. The rules of a training fight can be set up so that a Sopwith Camel could "kill" an F-22, so to judge "kill" ratios without knowing the training restrictions is pointless.
And this is what Murph says about reporting the results of training exercises:
In addition, what appears in print about any military aviation topic, much less, a semi-sensitive subject like kill ratios, is often grossly wrong well first of all I don’t have the Israeli pilots here to talk about their perspectives so this whole quote thing is a bit disingenuous to bring up.

Secondly, to be frankly honest, and again I mean no disrespect to these pilots, this all sounds like “sour grapes” and spin by those pilots for yes it wasn’t about winning and losing but the media and average citizens made it into that (which they have every right to) and they are just doing reactionary defence of what happened.

Just so you know, I do think that the Israelis probably did a bit better than our Navy guys in that exercise in '99. sorry buddy but now your getting a bit confusing for you sound like you are now acknowledging in your view a contest and that Israel didn’t do much better but rather a “bit better” which tells me now that you are into this whose better BS as much as any one else.

Secondly 220 kills to 20 Israeli losses says a little more then “just a bit”

Listen in truth do I think that the IAF is that (220 to 20) much better, hell no, for the USAF are one of the best in the world and have some of the best pilots in the world, but the IAF is a notch ahead of them!! that’s all!!

I think trying to put that superiority in numbers is overly simplistic, counterproductive, and downright idiotic. I actually agree with you and just note that I agree that some of my responses are a bit childish, for this whole debate is childish, but they are just in response to you comments.

Plus, do you really think that the IAF was 40X better than the U.S. Navy? Honestly? No I don’t quantify the IAF pilots by that number but rather just to say that ours are better!!

Just had to get those arguments off my chest :) ! In conclusion: are IAF pilots, on average, better than American pilots? Yes. Are they so good that they would post 40 to 1 kill ratios in a fair fight? No. I agree!! woot :D but next time 20 to 1 ;) :P

Should we even discuss kill ratios? No. again I agree…I just continued with them in response to you bringing them down………

Secondly I don’t think the IAF is better simply based on those exercises but rather on all sorts of other factors (like selection and combat experience) that led me to that conclusion.

Am I very glad that Israel is our ally? Emphatically yes! and vise versa!! (With the U.S. of course)

On that last note, I think this debate should close out!!! :D

Shalom :D