When a soldier's down

[Schiller]

A soldier(regardless of nationality or ethnicity) died in battle while fighting to kill the enemy soldiers for his(or her) nation(or society, or local community).
Where do you think he or she would go?

1. Heaven(Because he or she fought for his or her country)
2. Hell(Because he or she killed people)
3. Limbo(In-between choice)
4. I don't believe in the afterlife and the dude's plain dead.

[Argyll]

I'll take 4.

[Mortimer]

i think you need to lay off the cough syrup....seriously :|

[mocking_loudly_died]

Wow, what a crap post.

I'll take 4.

[UoUo]

If a man die for his country and take with him 10 children..he probly end in hell...but if is fight for the right resens...i belive he going to heaven altoght the "tora" have hard laws about murders. :|

[Shake n Bake]

5. A pass to heaven and a 72 year old virgin

[NcDeuce]

The Bible, God's Word shows us the way to Heaven. There are certain things you must know and believe in order to go to Heaven. You must know the following:

Sin is the transgression (violation) of the law.
God's moral law is given in the Ten Commandments:


Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them ...
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain ...
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work ...
Honour thy father and thy mother ...
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Thou shalt not covet [desire that which is unlawful to obtain or possess; desire what belongs to another] ...



We are sinners.



Romans 3:9 says, " ... we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."

Romans 3:10 says, " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

James 2:10 says, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

We have earned death and Hell.



Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death ..."

Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins.

Romans 5:8 says, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ [God manifest in the flesh] died for us."

I Peter 3:18 says, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened [made alive] by the Spirit."

Jesus Christ was raised bodily from the dead.

John 20:27 gives the words of the resurrected Christ to doubting Thomas: "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

Hebrews 7:25 says, "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

In order to be saved (delivered or set free from sin), you must REPENT of your sins and BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ. REPENTANCE is that voluntary change in the mind of the sinner in which he turns to Christ and trusts Him as Lord and Saviour.
Luke 13:3 says, "... except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Acts 3:19 says, " Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out . . . "

Romans 10:9, 10 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness . . . "

Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

If you believe these truths from the Bible, and if you want to be saved (delivered or set free from sin), call upon the Lord Jesus Christ right now, and ask Him to save you. There are no shortcuts to Heaven.

[Jooglae]

I don't know. I mean, this is quite a difficult question, between patriotism and the sacredness of life.

If that soldier was a person who killed civilians for no reason(My Lai, Tiger Force in Vietnam), he'd definitely go to hell. But for others, I don't know.

Maybe the best for them would be the limbo.

[Argyll]

When's the last time you ever met a soldier claiming he's just back from heaven(apart from the local barracks ,when he's just porked the prom Queen!!)

[Shake n Bake]

I believe there's a deference between killing and murdering..

[Vance]

I believe there's a deference between killing and murdering..
Yep. Killing on a battlefield is what I call self-defense. Kill or be killed.

[Jooglae]

I believe there's a deference between killing and murdering..
Yep. Killing on a battlefield is what I call self-defense. Kill or be killed.

Any way you put it, I believe that there is no eventual difference.

[Vance]

I believe there's a deference between killing and murdering..
Yep. Killing on a battlefield is what I call self-defense. Kill or be killed.

Any way you put it, I believe that there is no eventual difference.
Well technically, yes, they still die either way, it's just the way in that you killed them that is the discussion here.

Killing a terrorist running at you and firing an AK-47 wildly and killing him is different then..

Murdering some old lady in a park with a knife.

Different types of killing...

[Argyll]

Thought shalt not kill......................literally means that!!,otherwise like many things contained in the bible are open to interpretation,by the words justification!.

It does not say "Thou shalt not kill,unless they are your enemies in battle"..........period.

[Vance]

Yeah, but it's SELF-DEFENSE. God can understand that, I think.

[Argyll]

Gang warfare is self defence too,that still doesn't make it right?

The Commandment is pretty straight forward.

If he meant Self Defence then he would've said it?

I lost my faith many many years ago,and it's through the individulas interpretation,that it all goes "**** up"

Example Friendly Fire resulting in the death, cannot be deemed self defence.

Dropping ordinance on a target ,causing collateral damage cannot be "self defence".

One on one with the enemy perhaps will be Self Defence,
Depending on scenario,whether the conqueror or the vanquished,who will go to heaven then,the one who commited the 1st attack or aggresion,or the persion defendin the attack/aggresion,the person invading the country or the person defending his?

[Seoulstriker]

TF160SOAR nailed it.

everyone sins. there is no getting around it. the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

so unless the soldiers recognized that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, they would not be able to go to heaven.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Pffft, religion is bollocks.

Yeh some tosser's wrote some books and I’m meant to believe in fairies and unicorns.

I think lord of the rings is more believable.

[wulfstan]

He'll go to Valhalla, the place for all fallen warriors.
(Unless he drowned of course, then he wouldn't be admitted as drowning is not an honourable death for warriors.)

[duck]

Another vote for Valhalla.

[Deuterium]

Is Britney Spears on the Telly right now? Gotta run......

[Saranof]

Gang warfare is self defence too,that still doesn't make it right?

The Commandment is pretty straight forward.

If he meant Self Defence then he would've said it?

I lost my faith many many years ago,and it's through the individulas interpretation,that it all goes "**** up"

Example Friendly Fire resulting in the death, cannot be deemed self defence.

Dropping ordinance on a target ,causing collateral damage cannot be "self defence".

One on one with the enemy perhaps will be Self Defence,
Depending on scenario,whether the conqueror or the vanquished,who will go to heaven then,the one who commited the 1st attack or aggresion,or the persion defendin the attack/aggresion,the person invading the country or the person defending his?


Sound a bit like the defination of "Jihad". Self defence.

Anyways, I go for 4...
Since god does not exist

[gary-amsterdam]

I don't beleave in the bible, the ten commandments or christianity, sorry i don't mean to offend anyone but I just dont beleave that. Either there is nothing after death, or there is some form of higher astral plane where the energy from your soul goes or something, meaby reincarnation, I have no idea, I think that if you live a good life everything will be fine, killing someone in battle is not the same as murdering I think.

[Seoulstriker]

Gang warfare is self defence too,that still doesn't make it right?

The Commandment is pretty straight forward.

If he meant Self Defence then he would've said it?

I lost my faith many many years ago,and it's through the individulas interpretation,that it all goes "**** up"

Example Friendly Fire resulting in the death, cannot be deemed self defence.

Dropping ordinance on a target ,causing collateral damage cannot be "self defence".

One on one with the enemy perhaps will be Self Defence,
Depending on scenario,whether the conqueror or the vanquished,who will go to heaven then,the one who commited the 1st attack or aggresion,or the persion defendin the attack/aggresion,the person invading the country or the person defending his?


Sound a bit like the defination of "Jihad". Self defence.

Anyways, I go for 4...
Since god does not exist

why do you think God does not exist?

[Ichhabe]

NEWSFLASH: Valhalla is for SCANDINAVIANS only... Other, stay out.!!! ;)

[obd]

Oh for the love of crap, everybody knows God is just Santa Claus for adults you dumb asses. Whats funny is that 99% of people only go to chruch as a social thing. Religion is all about social group interaction and needing to conform. Its only the 1% of the population that ACTUALLY beleives that crap anyway. The rest just go through the motions and then go have *** out of wedlock, drink, party, and generally have fun in life haha. The truly religious people are just wasting thier life away. Lets face it, we live and we die and nobody really knows what happens after that so lets all just chill and have fun while we are here. Although, it sure does help you feel safe and secure to know that "God is on your side" LOL. Kinda like when Madonna says "thanks God for getting me this award" and then ten kids on thier way to chrurch are killed in a another church van explosion . Ah the hypocracy of religion. Everybody should ask themselves what faith is. its BLIND BELIEF WITHOUT QUESTION AND WITHOUT THE NEED OF PROOF SUCH AS A MIRICAL. Newsflash to all you faithful: If you fall for that load of crap, then you can fall for anybodys load of crap. If your too stupid and just want to oversimplfy the world or you need a little security blanket, then by all means go to church. But at least try to leave the rest of us who really wanna enjpy life out of your religious indoctrination and bullsh*t and try not to force your warped morality on us. And please people, the only instituion in history more corrupt than "the state" and government is the institution of the chruch. The only motivation more prevalent than greed for committing mass murder and genocide is religion!!! Give it up and open your mind!!!!!

[budanski]

I take it you're not Catholic.

[Ichhabe]

Give it up and open your mind!!!!!

From Full Metal Jacket; Free your mind, and your ass will follow. ;)

[TheHoleInMyChest]

am i stupid because i believe in god?? does that make me dumb?? dont get me wrong... im not one of those spiritual nutcases that go door to door trying to convert people... hell, i go to church like..3 times a year... and broke most of the less serious commandments... ive lied, stole, "coveted", use gods name in vain...etc. but i think i'm a pretty good catholic. let people believe in their faith... sometimes thats the only thing they have to hold on to. gives people hope, makes people do good things, brings meaning into people's lives. brings people together... so respect that... people respect your athieism so respect their religions, faiths... what you just said obd just made you look ignorant and disrespectful ...but hey i believe in god so i must be ultra stupid...oh well


god bless america...

[Argyll]

Yes but just because you don't believe is not wrong either,and the people who do believe should really keep their faith to themselve's,and not look upon the non believers are anything different!.
I keep an open mind,I've yet to meet a celestial being,or have an NDE,but had a life full of misery and ****,that it prevents me from feeling there is a greater good.................yeah just look at the state of the Planet today,God's work.......pulease!

[Midtown]

Yeah I coveted some guys wife, but its okay, she didnt wake up.

But seriosly, My for goes for 4

I figure, when Im going to die, I sure as hell am gonna make it a scene.

[NcDeuce]

Thank God for General Boykin
Tony Blankley

The latest proposed victim in our struggle against terrorism is Army Lt. General William G. "Jerry" Boykin, recently named Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence. His mission is to reinvigorate the search for bin Laden, Mullah Omar and other leaders of global terrorism. By training and experience he is marvelously prepared for his new duties -- having risen from a Delta Force commando to top-secret Joint Special Operations Command, through the CIA, to command of the Army's Special Forces. For a quarter century he has been fighting terror with his bare hands, his fine mind and his faith-shaped soul. It is that last matter -- his faith, and his willingness to give politically incorrect witness to that faith in Christian churches -- that has drawn furious media and political fire in the last week. The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, Howard Dean, The Egyptian Foreign Minister and other less lofty entities have all called for his removal from office because of his expressed religious views. And, of course, these calls for his head are all made on behalf of religious tolerance.

While the full text of the general's comments will not been released by the Los Angeles Times columnist who secretly recorded them during the general's witness in churches in Oklahoma, Oregon and Florida, the purportedly scandalous bits have been selectively published in print and on television. General Boykin said the terrorists come from "the principalities of darkness," that they are "demonic," and they hate us because "We're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian, and the enemy is a guy named Satan." The general also recounted the time he was chasing down a Somali warlord who was bragging that the Americans would not capture him because his god, Allah, would protect him. "Well," Boykin responded, "my God is bigger than his God. I knew my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

In short, General Boykin is being accused of calling America a Judeo-Christian country, the war on terrorism a religious war, and of expressing his belief in the truth of the New Testament of the Bible. While his critics concede that he has a right to express his religious views, they argue that his expressed opinions of the Islamic and Christian religions make him unfit to perform his duties of helping to lead in the war on terrorism. I am inclined to believe that he is splendidly fit for such combat, and I thank God that we have such a man as General Boykin in our midst.

The purported fear is that the general's comments may have ruffled the feathers of our esteemed enemy -- the millions and millions of fanatical Islamists, or that his statement may so inflame the passions of the millions of good Muslims that they will discard their peaceable ways and pick up the bloody sword of jihad. What utter balderdash. Whether or not American officials chose to call this a religious war, it is utterly clear that our enemy, bin Laden and the other terrorists, are motivated by Islamic religious fanaticism. They say so in their founding documents and every day, in every way, around the world. However peaceably we may interpret the Koran or assess the history of Islam, at this time and in these places one would have to be swayed by a spirit of detachment from the facts not to see that a sizable percentage of Muslims believe they are in a religious war with non-Muslims. They are consciously at religious war with the Jews in the Middle East, with Hindus in the subcontinent and with Christians everywhere. It shouldn't be a firing offense for the occasional American general to return the compliment. Indeed, I am heartened by General Boykin's fighting spirit.

Nor is it factually wrong or religiously insensitive to point out that the United States is a Judeo-Christian country. We are. It is an uncontestable historic and cultural fact. We are also a country that strives in both law and habit to be impeccably tolerant and respectful to all other religions and to those who believe in no religion at all. But in rallying our countrymen to the defense of our lives and property at this time of peril, we are entitled to invoke -- as Lincoln once did with such dignity and passion -- the mystic chords of our memory. And it is well to recall that when Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill met in Placentia Bay off New Foundland on the heavy cruiser Augusta on August 9, 1941, to rally our nations to our common defense, they sang three songs with the assembled sailors: "O God, Our Help in Ages Past," "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" and "Onward, Christian Soldiers."

My role model p-)

[Armour recon]

If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.

Sir Winston Churchill

[TheHoleInMyChest]

did i say obd was wrong for not believing in god??? am i insulting his inteligence?? no! but he is insulting me and other christians in here and saying we're wrong for having faith in our religion... i respect every religion, race, culture..etc. i dont have to like them, but i have to RESPECT them... hey...more power to you guys that think god is BS...thatsyour belief... but dont go insulting my intelligence and disrespecting my religious beleifs... jeez...

[NcDeuce]

did i say obd was wrong for not believing in god??? am i insulting his inteligence?? no! but he is insulting me and other christians in here and saying we're wrong for having faith in our religion... i respect every religion, race, culture..etc. i dont have to like them, but i have to RESPECT them... hey...more power to you guys that think god is BS...thatsyour belief... but dont go insulting my intelligence and disrespecting my religious beleifs... jeez...

Don't worry about it, they will hopefully understand one day...

[Argyll]

Who's disrespecting who?
The guys who believe do so and the guys who don't are the same,nobodys saying it's wrong are they?Each to their own.

As for the US General,his speach was taken out of context by a lot of people,whilst he belive in using his religion strongly and uses it to rouse his troops,I much prefered my old Platoon Sgts words "Go for it you hot bas*ards!!"

TF I never understood religion since I was a kid,if we are all Gods children,then why the need for so many different religions,and beliefs,it's like that scientology stuff,what's that all about?

[MarineSniper8541]

The original hebrew text of the bible regarding the Ten Commandments states that:

Thou shalt not murder.

Modern religion has transformed that to fit the geo-political opinion that all killing is wrong and has changed it to read Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Murdering is killing without any form of justification.
Killing a person is sometimes done for reasons of necessity.

More people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason since the history of man kind.

So no, just because a soldier engaged in armed conflict kills someone, he has not broken the Ten Commandments.

[Seoulstriker]

Oh for the love of crap, everybody knows God is just Santa Claus for adults you dumb asses. Whats funny is that 99% of people only go to chruch as a social thing. Religion is all about social group interaction and needing to conform. Its only the 1% of the population that ACTUALLY beleives that crap anyway. The rest just go through the motions and then go have *** out of wedlock, drink, party, and generally have fun in life haha. The truly religious people are just wasting thier life away. Lets face it, we live and we die and nobody really knows what happens after that so lets all just chill and have fun while we are here. Although, it sure does help you feel safe and secure to know that "God is on your side" LOL. Kinda like when Madonna says "thanks God for getting me this award" and then ten kids on thier way to chrurch are killed in a another church van explosion . Ah the hypocracy of religion. Everybody should ask themselves what faith is. its BLIND BELIEF WITHOUT QUESTION AND WITHOUT THE NEED OF PROOF SUCH AS A MIRICAL. Newsflash to all you faithful: If you fall for that load of crap, then you can fall for anybodys load of crap. If your too stupid and just want to oversimplfy the world or you need a little security blanket, then by all means go to church. But at least try to leave the rest of us who really wanna enjpy life out of your religious indoctrination and bullsh*t and try not to force your warped morality on us. And please people, the only instituion in history more corrupt than "the state" and government is the institution of the chruch. The only motivation more prevalent than greed for committing mass murder and genocide is religion!!! Give it up and open your mind!!!!!

what is your personal experience of religion?

[Kriz]

HAha religion, when you're dead you're dead. There ain't no heaven or hell. Just like you don't get judged for the actions you hae undertaken in this life.
When your dead your body disintegrates, and the atoms that once were your soul, memory and all that stuff just go on.

[Armour recon]

the good old bible ain't gonna save your butt when **** hits the fan.
I've been in church few times but I didn't get a kick out of it.
I do respect the people who believes.

[IDFM203]

I try to avoid religious topics and debates for you cant prove conclusively on the net one over the other or that one doesn’t exist or anything like that

I will just say this.

The famous saying " there are no atheists in foxholes " is the damn truth for most out there.

Shalom :D

[NcDeuce]

It might not neccessarily save you when the shi* hits the fan...but...


Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

[Vance]

Only on an internet forum can you insult someone's relegion and call them a dumbass. :roll:

[Argyll]

An interesting point,in the way Boyakin held his faith close,during WW2 the german soldier went to war with the words "Gott mitt Und" on his belt,didn't help them did it?

[Vance]

An interesting point,in the way Boyakin held his faith close,during WW2 the german soldier went to war with the words "Gott mitt Und" on his belt,didn't help them did it?
It didn't say ''God makes us invincible'', did it?

[Argyll]

No and I seriously doubt that Gen.Boyakin is either!.
Perhaps he should put trust in his faith and walk through Tikrit by himself wearing no Kevlar...........100m's I'll give him,200 tops!

[Vance]

No
Thank you.

[wulfstan]

Ichabe,
On the subject of Valhalla, I feel i have an honourary place in the great hall, altho i have no proof (thanks to no written records) i feel i am at least in part Scandinavian, Norse blood runs thru British veins, as they say!

[Seoulstriker]

has anyone played "Rune"?

[mocking_loudly_died]

I'm a reasonable kind of guy, you guys knows that....but when religion appears....I....turn...into....A RAGING SMELLY HULK OF HATE!.....(cough).....whats on TV?

[Trigger]

NEWSFLASH: Valhalla is for SCANDINAVIANS only... Other, stay out.!!! ;)
:(
*Lays down plastic 'Thor' hammer, removes Viking horned helmet and sulks away slowly...*

[mocking_loudly_died]

I'm curious how do you go about starting a new religion?.

Do you have to get it registered in some way? (just incase the FBI raids your house)

[California Joe]

At one point I was an ordained minister. I found it on the internet. I could start one for you. I say we get big rocks and put them in a circle but....(and here's the genius part).. we deflower the virgins instead of sacrificing them. Cool huh?

[Beowulf]

At one point I was an ordained minister. I found it on the internet. I could start one for you. I say we get big rocks and put them in a circle but....(and here's the genius part).. we deflower the virgins instead of sacrificing them. Cool huh?

I'm a minister in the Universal Life Church ;)

http://www.ulc.org/


HAha religion, when you're dead you're dead. There ain't no heaven or hell. Just like you don't get judged for the actions you hae undertaken in this life.
When your dead your body disintegrates, and the atoms that once were your soul, memory and all that stuff just go on.

Right or wrong I suppose we'll all find out one day :| ....

[mocking_loudly_died]

Pfft, If I'm wrong I'll just blame Morty. ;)

[Caribou Kid]

Does this mean that a warrior following his superiors orders but who then sadly dies in battle has a reasonable chance of making it into whatever version of an "afterlife" he subscribes to, IF he is a believer? I mean, supposing you belonged to the Somali Liberation Army and you died while serving under General Aideed; would you be as equally entitled to an "afterlife" because you had been a devout, actively religious person than if you were an inspired warrior of..say..Moshe Dayan, or Genaral Boyakin when he was in 1SFO(D)? I mean no disrespect, but fair is fair, right guys?......A fallen warrior in battle is still a fallen warrior, irrespective of affiliation.
BTW, what does that make YOU if you helped put him there? (Do not say "...An expert marksman") ;)
Are you then a "baddie" or a "goodie?"

Personally, I reckon we all become worm food. Or fish food. (okay, sometimes ashes, as well,) :|


"This is my KEYBOARD. There are many like it, but this one is MINE..."

[Chris1]

4
and I have been in a foxhole
go figure.
If I'm good for my whole life and give up swine wine and women then I get a shot at heaven when I die
I'd much prefer to sin for a good 60 years :)
That said I do have a deathbed confession planned, just in case :)