EU Constitution Yes or No?

[SHAM]

Spain is voting, what does the rest of europe think.

From Sky News

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13301202,00.html


SPAIN GOES TO THE POLLS

Spain is set to become the first member of the European Union to hold a referendum on the new European constitution.

Polls show a yes vote is the likely outcome.


But for the constitution to be adopted, all 25 EU members have to ratify the agreement by 2006.

In France, one of the founders of the European Common Market, support is falling.

Originally 70% of the French said they would vote in favour, although this is now thought to be closer to 60%.

Germany, another founder member, has a ban on referendums, so will only vote in parliament.

But in Britain it looks like Tony Blair has his work cut out for him. The government will have to campaign hard to avoid an expected no vote.

With a no vote also looking likely in the Netherlands, Denmark and Poland, a yes in Spain could ultimately make no difference at all.

If any country does vote no, the constitution will be finished and politicians will have to go back to the drawing board.

The constitution aims to set out how the newly-enlarged 25-state union will work. But critics say it gives more power to Brussels


When i get a chance to vote i will vote No.

[promillo]

Yes, I want an Eu constitution, but one that is more like the US-constitution. One, that gives the citizens real rights. And not that buerocratic monstrum, that the eu-sovjets want to have.

[Weasel]

Yes, I want an Eu constitution, but one that is more like the US-constitution. One, that gives the citizens real rights. And not that buerocratic monstrum, that the eu-sovjets want to have.

Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh

[promillo]

Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Hey redski, why dont you go and eat some froglegs instead?

rofl

[Herrmannek]

NO..at least not current one

[Loco]

Hi all. I´m spanish and tomorrow I´ll vote No. I like EU, I like my european continent and european countries. It´s just I don´t understand the need of an EU´s constitution for granting my rights: My country, every european country, has its own constitution, in that constitution my fundamental rights are granted enough and my duties as a citizen are written. Even more, since my country joined not the EU by the CEE in 1985, more laws and treaties than I can remember were signed between my country and european institutions, listing and ruling my rights and duties this time as an european; once even it was necessary to reform spanish constitution for adapting it to the european laws. Now I wonder why in the hell I need that so called "constitution" that wasn´t made by any legislator elected by me.
Finally, I don´t want to accelerate any kind of european union. I prefer a slow evolution.

[cut]

Yes, I want an Eu constitution, but one that is more like the US-constitution. One, that gives the citizens real rights. And not that buerocratic monstrum, that the eu-sovjets want to have.

the whole point of the Constitution is to tidy up the bureaucracy.
It's basically rolling all the previous treaties from the last half century into one, and at the same time streamlining the the instituions to make them more effective with the extra ten memeber states on board.

If you think the constitution is about making the bureaucracy worse then you obviously haven't bothered looking into it.

[martinexsquaddie]

hav'nt read it . looks like a thrilling read not
should get on with reading it I suppouse(':roll:')
like the eu hate the comission we did'nt vote for those Knuts why should they get to make laws that KNut kinnock could'nt get elected in this country strolls off to europe get a plumb job wtf?
bitter moi?

[Freibier]

Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh

Hey redski, why dont you go and eat some froglegs instead?

rofl
LOL Brauni

[LeMat]

No current one because it gives us not so good position during voting.

[Shadow]

Con-sti-tution
**** YEAH!!!

[Knutsen]

I have to vote tomorrow and i'll vote yes. I'm not fully satisfied by the constitution but i see it as a first step. The constitution won't last forever, but is a great start for future changes or new constitutions.

[fantassin]

I want a powerful Europe, not just an economic union the way UK and Holland see it.

So I will vote YES.

[Herrmannek]

I want a powerful Europe, not just an economic union the way UK,Poland and Holland see it.

So I will vote YES.

[perdurabo]

i have q. anymone here bothered to read whole thing? is there any on line version?

[Nordic Fire]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_constitution) has a lot information on the European Constitution.

If we were to hold a referendum, which we fortunately won't (yes, fortunately; referendum is a symptom of dysfunctional representative democracy), I'd vote YES. It streamlines the bureaucratic nightmare of several overlapping treaties the EU is now based on and tightens the integration in the long run.

[Weasel]

So I will vote YES.

woot Go Europe, go! woot

[promillo]

So I will vote YES.

woot Go Europe, go! woot

...exactly in the wrong direction. :(

[Weasel]

So I will vote YES.

woot Go Europe, go! woot

...exactly in the wrong direction. :(

Not enough right winged for you?

[promillo]

To much state-winged and not enough citizen-winged. :-(

[SHAM]

Some Stats from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3954327.stm



PORTUGAL
Former Prime Minister Jose Manuel Barroso, who resigned in July to become head of the European Union Commission, told parliament in June that his government would hold a referendum. His successor, Pedro Santana Lopes - after a period of silence on the issue - has reaffirmed that commitment. April has been mooted as a possible date.

Concerns have been expressed by some politicians that the constitution will mean Portuguese interests are swept away by larger countries in the name of efficiency. Among those hoping that the constitution will be passed, there are fears that low turnout in a referendum could lead to rejection.

Eurobarometer: 40% in favour, 7% opposed, 53% don't know.


Portugal vague on EU referendum





IRELAND
Ireland will hold a referendum on the constitution in late 2005, or early 2006.

The debate, to the extent it exists, focuses on the impact the constitution might have on the country's neutrality, as well as on social issues such as abortion. As with other small countries, there are also concerns that Ireland may find itself trampled upon by the larger countries.

If Ireland votes no in the referendum, it would not be the first time. Voters rejected the Nice Treaty in 2001, narrowly approving it when it was re-presented a year later.

Eurobarometer: 28% favourable, 5% opposed, 67% don't know.


Irish Yes vote not a done deal




SPAIN
Spain is the first country to hold a referendum on the constitution, going to the polls on 20 February.

All of the country's major parties are backing the campaign. However former conservative Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, going against the official line of his People's Party, has attacked his Socialist successor's decision to relinquish Spain's favourable voting weights, and urged Spaniards to think carefully before voting in favour.

There is also opposition to the constitution emanating from regional parties in Catalonia who want Catalan recognised as an official EU language and representation of the region within the European Union's institutions. This would be Spain's first referendum on European affairs.

Eurobarometer: 56% favourable, 7% opposed, 37% don't know.


Spain rallies to EU Constitution




UNITED KINGDOM
The UK last held a referendum nearly 30 years ago. It was on whether to stay in the European Community - and on that occasion over 60% thought the country should.

In this referendum, antipathy towards Brussels among some citizens and a lack of interest in its activities among others is likely to make a pro-constitution campaign difficult.

Britain's primary concerns relate to a feared loss of sovereignty and anxiety that a European superstate is in the making. The UK government has not yet specified a date, but it is thought highly unlikely that one will be held before the next general election - which many anticipate will take place in May.

The more Eurosceptic Conservative Party has promised a prompt referendum if elected.

Eurobarometer: 20% favourable, 30% opposed, 50% don't know.


Uphill EU battle for Blair




FRANCE
The last time European issues were put to a referendum in France, the country only narrowly voted in favour. The Maastricht treaty was passed by a margin of just 2%. Recent polls nonetheless suggest that the broad majority of people in France support the constitution.

However many are deeply opposed to Turkey joining the union, and in order to stop the referendum on the constitution becoming a vote on that, Mr Chirac has offered a separate plebiscite on Turkey's membership. But even with this concession, pro-constitution campaigners still face a rough ride.

There are concerns within the mainstream parties that the constitution does not allow for deep enough integration, while members of the French left feel that the document gives too much weight to liberal Anglo-Saxon economic and social policies. Former Prime Minister Laurent Fabius has declared the text insufficient for the creation of a "social" Europe.

The Socialists in December decided to back the constitution. A referendum could be held as early as May 2005.


Eurobarometer: 48% favourable, 17% opposed, 35% don't know.


France cools towards EU project




NETHERLANDS
This would be the first nationwide referendum on any subject, but would not actually be binding.

The referendum, likely to be held early in 2005, is widely expected to return a yes vote from a nation which is, on the whole, in favour of closer integration but which does have concerns about the democratic legitimacy of the EU.

The Netherlands is also the biggest per capita contributor to the EU budget and has become irritated by the club's costs and the flouting of the eurozone's stability and growth pact. As the vote is purely consultative, even if the Dutch people rejected the constitution, parliament would still be able to ratify it.

Eurobarometer: 63% favourable, 11% opposed, 26% don't know.


EU faces Dutch grudge test




BELGIUM
Belgium has opted for parliamentary ratification of the constitution, rather than holding a referendum. So far no deadline has been set for ratification.

Belgium's Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt was originally the favourite of France and Germany to become EU Commission President, before Portugal's Jose Manuel Barroso was finally chosen as a compromise candidate after heated debate among EU leaders.

Eurobarometer: 70% favourable, 13% opposed, 17% don't know.





LUXEMBOURG
Luxembourg's referendum will be the first since 1936 in the tiny duchy, one of the six founding members of the EU.

Although there are concerns that the constitution is not wholly advantageous for smaller states, the 500,000-strong country is thought likely to approve it in 2005.

Eurobarometer: 57% favourable, 12% opposed, 31% don't know.


EU apathy reigns in Luxembourg





DENMARK
Denmark rejected the Maastricht treaty in 1992, adopting it after winning opt-outs in 1993.

It could well be one of the countries that rejects the constitution when its referendum is held in late 2005, amid general concerns about declining Danish sovereignty and the ceding of powers to Brussels.

Eurobarometer: 44% favourable, 26% opposed, 30% don't know.





GERMANY
Germany chose to submit the constitution to parliament for ratification, rather than hold a referendum. The upper house, the Bundesrat, began debating it on 18 February. A two-thirds majority in both houses is required for ratification.

In any case there is no provision in the current German constitution for plebiscites, which were abused by the Nazis to consolidate power. A two-thirds parliamentary majority would be required to change the constitution to allow for a referendum.

Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer has urged deputies to send a "positive signal" to Europe by ratifying the constitution before the summer recess.

Polls indicate that Germans are overwhelmingly pro-European. But the government has allowed room for compromise with the federal states when implementing the constitution.


Eurobarometer: 54% favourable, 17% opposed, 28% don't know.





ITALY
Italy had suggested that it might hold a referendum on the issue: several senior politicians backed such a move and Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi himself said that he could not see any obstacles to a public vote. However, the foreign minister has since announced that it will be parliament which ratifies the document, and indeed that the house would be asked to provide its approval before Christmas.

Mr Berlusconi may face a revolt within his own coalition from the right-wing Northern League party, which fears the erosion of national and regional sovereignty, but he is likely to win the support of centre-left opposition parties.

The Pope's denunciation of the treaty for failing to include a reference to Christianity does not seem to have come into play.

Eurobarometer: 72% favourable, 10% opposed, 18% don't know.


EU drama overshadows Italy's plans




MALTA
The Maltese government has ruled out a referendum arguing that there is no legal basis and that the March 2003 accession referendum was decisive.

Malta had the tightest poll on joining among all the accession states, with 54% voting in favour and 46% against.

The leader of the opposition Labour Party had said at the time that he would not sign the accession treaty if elected.

The party, which has 30 seats in the 65 member house, has not yet declared what position it will take on ratification.

Eurobarometer: 31% favourable, 13% opposed, 56% don't know.





SWEDEN
In the last referendum they held, the Swedes rejected the single European currency. The constitution will not be put to a popular vote. A bill on ratification will be presented to the Swedish parliament by September 2005 with a view to adoption in December 2005, according to the plan.

A majority in the current Swedish parliament is in favour of the constitution, although the Swedish Green Party and the Left Party are keen that a referendum be held.

Sweden has the lowest level of popular support for a constitution across the 25-member bloc, according to Eurobarometer.

Eurobarometer: 27% favourable, 25% opposed, 48% don't know.





CZECH REPUBLIC
Prime Minister Stanislav Gross has said that a referendum on the constitution could be held in June 2006, at the same time as the country's general elections, in which the more Eurosceptic, pro-American Civic Democrats are expected to do well.

Whether by parliament or referendum, the ratification process is not expected to be an easy one.

Eurobarometer: 39% favourable, 20% opposed, 42% don't know.


Czechs delay constitution vote





AUSTRIA
A referendum is deemed highly unlikely. A two-thirds majority is needed in parliament for the constitution to be passed.

Austria's particular concern has been the country's neutrality, and how that may be affected by the suggestion of mutual defence. However it is widely expected that the constitution will get the support it needs for ratification.

Eurobarometer: 44% favourable, 25% opposed, 31% don't know.





SLOVENIA
Slovenia's parliament voted overwhelmingly to ratify the European Union constitution on 1 February 2005. MPs supported the move by 79 votes to four.

Eurobarometer: 60% favourable, 9% opposed, 31% don't know.





POLAND
Poland is regarded as one of the more sceptical countries on the constitution, and tough debate is expected before the referendum. Supporters and opponents within the political establishment are about evenly divided.

Key issues for the Poles are the reduction of voting powers implicit in the Constitution, compared to the structure set down at Nice, as well as the broader sentiment that the country got a "bad deal" when it joined the EU - particularly in terms of agriculture. There are also concerns about German domination.

The poll could be held in Autumn 2005 to coincide with the presidential elections, so, as the incumbent Aleksander Kwasniewski has declared, voters can see "which presidential candidates are supporters of a Europe united in its diversity".

Some 77% of Poles approved of the country joining the EU in 2003.

Eurobarometer: 43% favourable, 16% opposed, 41% don't know.





SLOVAKIA
Slovakia looks increasingly unlikely to hold a referendum on the constitution.

Prime Minister Mikulas Dzurinda has won the support of the two most significant opposition leaders, Robert Fico and Vladimir Meciar, for ratifying the constitution through parliament, rather than public vote. "It is better to have bad rules, than none," Mr Meciar said after the meeting.

Eurobarometer: 61% favourable, 11% opposed, 28% don't know.





HUNGARY

On 20 December 2004, Hungary became the second country to ratify the European Union constitution with a parliamentary vote.

Hungarians are among the more pro-European of the new members and the country's parliamentarians ratified the constitution by 304 votes to nine.

Eurobarometer: 60% favourable, 9% opposed, 31% don't know.





GREECE
Greece has a tradition of ratifying treaties through parliament, and the constitution will not be no exception.

As well as the support of the government, the constitution also has the backing of the main opposition party, the recently defeated socialists Pasok.

Eurobarometer: 34% favourable, 11% opposed, 55% don't know.





FINLAND
Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen has ruled out the need for a referendum, saying that the EU would not change so much under the new constitution that a referendum would be needed.

However, there has been disagreement from a number of prominent Finnish politicians, including Minister of Trade and Industry Mauri Pekkarinen as well as Justice Minister Johannes Koskinen, who suggested a public vote should be held together with the next Finnish presidential elections in 2006.

Eurobarometer: 42% favourable, 24% opposed, 33% don't know.





ESTONIA
Estonians are among the more Eurosceptic of the new members.

The Estonian government has decided not to have a referendum on the constitution - a decision the majority of the country's parties agree with. The final decision on ratifying the treaty will be taken by the parliament.

Eurobarometer: 32% favourable, 11% opposed, 56% don't know.





LATVIA
Latvia will ratify the treaty in parliament.

The country is currently holding out for a separate declaration to accompany the constitution which would allow it to keep its own spelling of euro. However it has said that this reservation will not stand in the way of the signing.

Eurobarometer: 41% favourable, 16% opposed, 43% don't know.





LITHUANIA
Lithuania became the first country in the EU to ratify the new EU constitution on 11 November, passing it by 84 votes to four with three abstentions.

It was argued that a referendum was unnecessary given that one had been held on joining the EU in the first place in which 91% voted yes.

Eurobarometer: 51% favourable, 11% opposed, 38% don't know.





CYPRUS
Cyprus did not have a referendum on joining the EU and will not hold one on the constitution.

Eurobarometer: 23% favourable, 10% opposed, 67% don't know.










http://img215.exs.cx/img215/7563/eu2fj.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

[LeMat]

I think that it is bad idea to let parliament decide about that. It is too important for us and we should make decision during referendums. In Poland we will have referendum.

[Shadow]

I'd vote Yes.
I don't want to stay in the way of a mighty united Europe.
Even if there are some points where I would disagree.

I hope that Spain will be a good role model for all.

[promillo]

The Us-Constitution, including the ammendments can be read and understood within a few hours, even if you are no native english speaker, like me.

The monstrous, more than 300 pages fat piece of bull****, called EU-constitution needs some weeks to be read and even more to be understood. Even its written in german. It is a bad work, done by highpayed officers ans politruks.
It is a crime to accept that, even if there are some few good things in. Most of it is communistoid bullsit, that no normal citizen can never understand.

It is not from the people for the people but from the state to cheat the people.

Thats why I am against THIS Eu-constitution but not against an (US-like) Eu-constitution.

[Weasel]

The Us-Constitution, including the ammendments can be read and understood within a few hours, even if you are no native english speaker, like me.

The monstrous, more than 300 pages fat piece of bull****, called EU-constitution needs some weeks to be read and even more to be understood. Even its written in german. It is a bad work, done by highpayed officers ans politruks.
It is a crime to accept that, even if there are some few good things in. Most of it is communistoid bullsit, that no normal citizen can never understand.

It is not from the people for the people but from the state to cheat the people.

Thats why I am against THIS Eu-constitution but not against an (US-like) Eu-constitution.

Your family name is McCarthy, isn´t it? rofl

[Sharp]

always better on the other side....

you are never happy :bash:

[MARINO]

I've voted this morning. NO

[wholagun]

I vote yes, then again I am a westernized Pole. :)

[CG51]

300 pages? any member here read this document yet? what would possibly make this 300 pages?

[Herrmannek]

I've voted this morning. NO

woot woot woot woot woot woot woot woot woot

[promillo]

300 pages? any member here read this document yet? what would possibly make this 300 pages?

I read some parts of it, as I have to work for my money and this is limiting my time, that I can waste to read those mass-crap.
It is written in an very bad german (the english version is not better), as it is spoken by buerocrats. and so is the "spirit" of this constitution: buerocratic.

It contains absurde things like a "Protocol concerning imports into the European Union of petroleum products refined in the Netherlands Antilles"
:cantbeli:

..and many more of irrelevant buerocratic bull****, that has nothing to do with an constitution.

[SHAM]

I would say the outlook is not good, it only takes one country to vote no in a referendum, and the constitution is scuppered. And i think there will be at least two vote No if not more.

[Freibier]

As the only net payer, germany should get all the power anyway :P

[Knutsen]

I voted YES but i'm not very happy with the process, especially with the extremell beloved in this forum Partido Popular (or Mr Ansar's rancho).

The campaign has been complete bs, both main parties spent all the time accusing each other and spoke none or little about the constitution. The NO parties, lead by the communists (which i don't like much) made a much better campaign.

But the extreme was this morning, i went voting and there were no people voting, but what really caught my eye was the fact that PP had 0 representatives in the electoral tables. For example, where i vote there are 4 tables, and in national elections there are at least 1 representative of each party (sometimes 2), that makes a total of 4-8 representatives of each party in my school.
In my town there are 22 schools, with an average 4 tables per school, so that means more than 100 representatives from each party.
This time, there were no representatives from PP in ANY table of ANY school in my town. I know it cause i asked about it in town hall. (appart from the fact that they didn't make any kind of ads in my town).

It's a great strategy for them, if everything goes well they'll put themselves medals, but if things go wrong then they'll say it's the Government's fault.
****ing hypocrites.......... (i voted for them in the General election but going that way i'll never vote for them again).

[MARINO]

eRES UN POQUITO SECTARIO NO.
In my vilage there were 1 socialist and 5 from PP.
The ****ing liars are the socialist, they have done nothing good since they are in the government. Our new best frineds are Cuba Venezuela and Morocco,

[Knutsen]

Los hechos no tienen nada que ver con sectas.

If you read my post, i said BOTH main parties insulted each other instead of explaining the constitution. Btw, i invite you to take a walk in any spanish city and you'll see fewer information panels of PP than any other party.



The f*** liars are the socialist, they have done nothing good since they are in the government. Our new best frineds are Cuba Venezuela and Morocco
And the relationship of this statement with the constitution and the way they are dealing with it is.....................?

[Wodan]

As the only net payer, germany should get all the power anyway :P

I agree with you, but... wait..

Austria is also a net payer!

[Freibier]

As the only net payer, germany should get all the power anyway :P

I agree with you, but... wait..

Austria is also a net payer!
Schluchtenscheisser zählen ned !

[Bernardo]

Schluchtenscheisser zählen ned !

Das zeigt eindeutlich auf was fuer ein Niveau du bist...

EU Constitution? NO thanks. I agree with Europe being an economic superpower, and with Europe having its own defense. There's no need for more. Europe's purpose was to prevent other WWI & WWII scenarios, and it worked/ it's working. And as an economic superpower Europe's going to have a lot of incluence worldwide. That's the only thing Europe has to work on. All it needs is less beaurocracy, no constitution...

[BlackRain]

Spaniards approve EU constitution

February 21, 2005 - 8:49AM

Terrorist appeasing Spanish voters have overwhelmingly endorsed the European Union constitution in a referendum, but turnout was only 42 per cent in the charter's first test at the grassroots level.

The constitution was backed by 76.5 per cent of voters, while 17.4 per cent voted against it, the Interior Ministry said after 97 per cent of the votes were counted.

For the constitution to take effect, all 25 EU countries must approve the charter, a complex document that some - especially critics - see as a major step toward a European superstate.

Three nations have already ratified it in parliament. Spain was the first of 10 countries to hold a referendum, with voters in the Netherlands and France to decide on the constitution within months.

Britain, where opposition seems strongest, plans to hold a vote later.

The Spanish referendum was nonbinding, with Parliament having the final say.

"The 'Yes' vote for Europe has won by a landslide majority," Deputy Prime Minister Maria Teresa Fernandez de la Vega said.

"We Spaniards have shown our European partners that Spain is an advanced country and deeply pro-European."

She said the government was "satisfied" with the turnout but wished it had been higher. It had set its sights low, saying before the referendum that 33 per cent would be reasonable.

The document approved by EU leaders in October is designed to streamline decision-making as the bloc expands eastward, making it more efficient and hoping to give it global clout on par with its economic might.

In Spain, both major parties supported the charter, and Sunday's result was expected, despite polls showing that few people understand the constitution.

Even after a massive government publicity campaign, Sunday's turnout was the lowest in any Spanish vote since democracy was restored following the death of General Francisco Franco in 1975.

Most Spaniards take EU membership for granted, and the low turnout reflects the complexity of a document that many have not read, said Charles Powell, deputy director of the Royal Elcano Institute, a Madrid think tank.

"It is not a very controversial thing," he said.

Spaniards also tend to be unenthusiastic about EU voting unless it coincides with a national election. In last June's European Parliament elections, turnout was 45 per cent, compared with more than 70 per cent in general election three months earlier.

Powell said the low turnout was a disappointment for Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, who "was hoping that Spain would lead the way".

Nevertheless, Spain's vote was unlikely to influence similar votes in other EU countries, Powell said.

Earlier in the day, Zapatero cast his ballot in a Madrid suburb and urged other Spaniards to follow suit, saying the referendum "means opening the doors on a Europe that is more united and stronger".

Zapatero said Spanish approval would be a natural progression for a country that was a relative latecomer to what is now the EU, joining in 1986, and has benefited greatly from membership in everything from aid funds, whores, culture, and science.

At one Madrid polling station, some voters admitted they didn't know much about the constitution itself, but said they were voting in favour to show support for the Socialist government.

But Alfredo Garcia, a 37-year-old pharmacist, said he voted 'No' on grounds that Spain should focus first on domestic problems - he cited Basque and Catalan separatism - rather than on Europe. "It is a very big problem and people have taken it a bit lightly," he said.

Ramon Rados, a 35-year-old actor, said he endorsed the document because Spain has benefited greatly from EU membership.

"We can't be on the outside," he said.

Despite relative apathy in voting, pro-EU sentiment runs deep in Spain. Many Spaniards associate the EU membership with the democracy restored after Franco's death, said Powell.

Approval of the constitution could be more problematic in other countries.

Powell and Daniel Keohane of the Centre for European Reform, a London thinktank, cited Britain, France, Poland and the Czech Republic as countries where acceptance is far from certain.

[XTC]

Schluchtenscheisser zählen ned !

Das zeigt eindeutlich auf was fuer ein Niveau du bist...


Ja, was furn idiot :bash:

[radon]

I looked quick at the constitution. It looked like it was the existing treaties in one packet. That constitution is long but it must be shorter than the existing papers. So that should mean less bureacracy in the long run. Now I wonder what the main differences to the current situation are? What is the new content? Less everyone has to agree and more majority is enough. I still wonder what other new things it brings to this Union.

What is imporant is called a constitution. They could have passed the same things easier under another name. Using the word constitution makes many anti Eu people say no even without thinking or considering at all.

I still wish Finland should become more like Switzerland.

[Wodan]

Schluchtenscheisser zählen ned !

Das zeigt eindeutlich auf was fuer ein Niveau du bist...


Ja, was furn idiot :bash:


Und da sagt man die deutschen seien das humorloseste Volk :roll: :lol:

[Knutsen]

Terrorist appeasing Spanish voters......

Credibility of the source down the toilet......................

[FallenAngel]

^ still, the article pointed out some figures.

42% turnout (I'm assuming of registered voters)

of that 42%, 76% voted in favor.

Which, unless my math is off at 3:45am (which it might be), only about 30% (give or take a little) of Spain's voters approved of the constitution.

[cut]

^ still, the article pointed out some figures.

42% turnout (I'm assuming of registered voters)

of that 42%, 76% voted in favor.

Which, unless my math is off at 3:45am (which it might be), only about 30% (give or take a little) of Spain's voters approved of the constitution.

do you want me to do the same calculation to find out what percentage people actually wanted Bush's second term?

That's the way FPTP voting works, so I don't see how that is an issue. By your reasoning only 30% voted for the constitution and 10 % voted against it. I think that's pretty conclusive.

[Oddbod]

When(if) I get my chance to vote on this, I will vote NO.

Until the EU ceases to be dominated by the unelected Commissioners, rather than the elected representatives, I shall continue to oppose further moves towards a European Superstate.
This is, after all, the long term vision of the "Europhiles"

[BlackRain]

do you want me to do the same calculation to find out what percentage people actually wanted Bush's second term?


http://images.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/elections2004/_images/2004countymap-final2.gif

RED= Bush Won
BLUE= Kerry Won

PRESIDENTIAL RESULTS (270 Electoral Votes Needed to Win)


--------Electoral Votes---Popular Votes---% Popular Votes

Bush (R)......286..........60,693,281............51%

Kerry (D).....252..........57,355,978............48%



Square miles of counties won


Bush 2.54 million

Kerry 592,000


Population (2003) of counties won


Bush 159,2 million

Kerry 130.9 million


Counties won by less than 5 percentage points


Bush 164

Kerry 146


Note: County election data is not reported for Alaska,

Source: the Associated Press, ESRI Inc. USATODAY analysis by Paul Overberg.

[bloddyaxe]

The current EU system is a jungle. With the constitution it will be more like a small temperate forest.

[Freibier]

Let's see:
USA population : 290 million
Votes for Bush: 60 million
so little more than 20% voted for bush ...

[Seiyuuki]

Let's see:
USA population : 290 million
Votes for Bush: 60 million
so little more than 20% voted for bush ...

Unfortunately, of those 290 million, not all are of eligible voting age. Those that are eligible, some are too lazy to register to vote.

[cut]

do you want me to do the same calculation to find out what percentage people actually wanted Bush's second term?


http://images.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/elections2004/_images/2004countymap-final2.gif

RED= Bush Won
BLUE= Kerry Won

PRESIDENTIAL RESULTS (270 Electoral Votes Needed to Win)


--------Electoral Votes---Popular Votes---% Popular Votes

Bush (R)......286..........60,693,281............51%

Kerry (D).....252..........57,355,978............48%



Square miles of counties won


Bush 2.54 million

Kerry 592,000


Population (2003) of counties won


Bush 159,2 million

Kerry 130.9 million


Counties won by less than 5 percentage points


Bush 164

Kerry 146


Note: County election data is not reported for Alaska,

Source: the Associated Press, ESRI Inc. USATODAY analysis by Paul Overberg.

sorry blackrain that's FPTP, you can't support for the issues you like (Bush' election) and go PR for something you don't (EU constitution).

The Fact is Bush own fair and square, if you agree that only 30% voted for the EU constitution (i.e.: not enough) then that would mean you thought the same of bush's election. There is no means for double standards here.The same system was used for both.

[cut]

The current EU system is a jungle. With the constitution it will be more like a small temperate forest.

best post of the day, totally honest + not partisan bull****.

[cbreedon]

here is the english one

http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/Treaty/cv00850.en03.pdf#search='european%20constitution'

[BlackRain]

sorry blackrain that's FPTP, you can't support for the issues you like (Bush' election) and go PR for something you don't (EU constitution).

The Fact is Bush own fair and square, if you agree that only 30% voted for the EU constitution (i.e.: not enough) then that would mean you thought the same of bush's election. There is no means for double standards here.The same system was used for both.

Sorry Cut, I don't really know what you are talking about as I con't follow the EU constitution gabfest that much. I was just posting figures about the 2004 US election.

US Voter Turnout

http://www.ou.edu/policom/images/althaus%20sized.jpg

In 2004, 122 million Americans voted, an 17 million increase from the record 2000 presidential turnout of 105 million.

[Gyles84]

Damn, totally missed this thread.

Anyways, answers NO. Can't let myself get too worried as Blair knows it won't pass in a fair referendum. Germany's not the only net payer either.

[cut]

sorry blackrain that's FPTP, you can't support for the issues you like (Bush' election) and go PR for something you don't (EU constitution).

The Fact is Bush own fair and square, if you agree that only 30% voted for the EU constitution (i.e.: not enough) then that would mean you thought the same of bush's election. There is no means for double standards here.The same system was used for both.

Sorry Cut, I don't really know what you are talking about as I con't follow the EU constitution gabfest that much. I was just posting figures about the 2004 US election.

US Voter Turnout

http://www.ou.edu/policom/images/althaus%20sized.jpg

In 2004, 122 million Americans voted, an 17 million increase from the record 2000 presidential turnout of 105 million.


The point of my post completely went over your head I see.

If you want a confrontational opinion for me I'll give you one; that's still well low compared to voter turnout in most other countries. Comparing a presidential election to a referndum is pointless.

Now, to remind you what I said, suggesting there is something wrong with the spanish EU constitution referendum because only 30% of the total suffrage voted "yes", is suggesting the same about the US election in with around 30% -if not less- of the total suffrage voted for Bush.

I believe that both results are fair and democratic, which means your reply was needless and beside the point.