WWII victory monument and polish soldier [Archive]

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LeMat

02-19-2005, 01:29 PM

I have a question for all of You. Russians are building a monument to commemorate victory in WWII. There will be figures of russian, american, british and french soldiers on it. This monument will be important part of 60 th anniversary of the end of WWII. In Poland there is huge discussion because we feel offended that there is no place for figure of polish soldier. Poles think that we were more important during WWII than France (no offence) and there should be also polish soldier on this monument (french soldier too). We feel that this is political blow made by Putin because our country is getting stronger, richer and is a political rival for Russia. Also we think that it is effect of our support to Juschenko on Ukraine and Russia want to punish us for our support to Ukraine.
So what do you think?
Please - no flame this is just a poll to find what people from different parts of world think about that.

SHAM

02-19-2005, 02:18 PM

If they put a polish soldier they should put all the other countries,..and then there would be no room, didnt polish soldiers wear allied uniforms? and fight in allied armies? what i am asking is what would make a polish soldier stand out from the other allies for a statue?

LeMat

02-19-2005, 03:01 PM

Poles had their own armies and uniforms. Also fi I remember correctly our armies (on wester and eastern front) were 4th of size - bigger than french army.

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 03:10 PM

Why polish soldier?
Why not chineese, australian, canadian, french etc? What makes polish soldiers more special?

this is political blow made by Putin because our country is getting stronger, richer and is a political rival for Russia.

You have also forgot to mention "more nationalistic" which is the real reason for all that nonsense.

Do you even realize how ridiculous "stronger, richer, political rival" sounds?

Do you think that having several thousand troops in Iraq that were moved there and financed by the US (lets avoid term "mercenaries") and military that is mostly equiped with the old Warsaw Pact hardware makes Poland "strong"?

"Rich" - well, everything is relative....

"Political rival" - :cantbeli:
How can possibly Poland can be a political rival to anyone? It has neither money, natural resources nor military power to influence anyone.
What have happened in Ukraine would have happened there with or without Polish support and approval. Things have changed from within.
It is just like saying that October revolution wouldn't have happened without Germany...

We all now that polish people don't like Russia, fine with me, I have said it many times before: "we could care less"
Somehow I think Putin has bigger things to worry/think about than "Oh my God, Poland is growing stronger and richer!!!!"

Why is it so hard to comprehend that russians don't care more about Poland than they do about Honduras or Belize???
We honestly do not, trust me, why dont you get it?!
Poland is just a small country in Eastern Europe, there many others like it...
Guys, you are not unique, special or different in anyway, come to peace with that.

I understand that every country needs a "national idea", yours, as one might conclude based on this board, is hatred/dislike of Russia for whatever reasons.

You like to talk about democracy and freedom so much when in fact your country have simply changed masters and has no free political will of its own.
Poland is just like a little kid who wants to play a game and be seen as cool but the only way into the game is to be associated with the Big Brother, so much for national pride...

My post is not meant to offend but rather give a "reality check".

bloddyaxe

02-19-2005, 03:11 PM

Why are they putting a french soldier on it? Would be more logical if they put a Norwegian one instead... or a Mongolian..

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-19-2005, 03:46 PM

Why polish soldier?
Why not chineese, australian, canadian, french etc? What makes polish soldiers more special?

Nothing. But we had the 4th largest Allied army, thousands of our soldiers died fighting for other nations' interests and since the WWII ended all we hear from our beloved Allies is "f*ck off, we don't want to remember about you".

And this monument should commemorate ALL allied countries, not only the those mentioned.

edit:
this is political blow made by Putin because our country is getting stronger, richer and is a political rival for Russia.

omg, best quote ever rofl

Herrmannek

02-19-2005, 03:46 PM

Anyone know that Soviet soldiers shouldn't be on that monument at all.
Soviets were allied with Nazis and they meaningfully helped in killing of that 6 mililons of people on polish occupied teritory by backstabing Poland in sept. 39.
I spit on that miserable scumbags who first murdered and robed us and later because attacked by their fellow criminal called for help of interenational community and with its help they managed to save their sorry ass, to rob us again for 50 years and claiming to this day that they rescued everyone from opression. I hope this lies will turn against every scum who uses it.
That makes that monument totaly irrevelant and i'm happy polish soldiers aren't helping in propagating that lie even more.
Le Mat there is no point in making such topics, there is that old true that "lies has very short legs". Just prepare popcorn and comfy chair to watch it sliping and falling face down on the pawement...It will be great entertainment.

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 03:52 PM

And this monument should commemorate ALL allied countries, not only the those mentioned.

I agree with you 100%.

LeMat

02-19-2005, 04:00 PM

@Dima-RussianArms

You didn't understand me.
I didnt write stronger and richer than Russia but stronger and richer than before. Putin don`t want our country to be strong.
We are political rivals - we always were. For example Ukraine - it was diplomatical fight and we won.
Poland isn't some small country in Europe - is one of the bigger countries.
Our GDP per capita is about 80% higher than yours.
I donn't want to say that we are empire. But people in Russia don't want to understand that Poland isn't some small poor country wihout any respect. Every day we are getting richer, and stronger and that hurts some people who dream about new soviet Russia.

@Brzeczyszczykiewicz
So what about Ukraine? You have to claim that Poland and Russia has completely different interests in the area of Ukraine, and other countries in that part of Europe. So that mean we are rivals.

Herrmannek

02-19-2005, 04:06 PM

Sryy for my explosion.. I would say that in much nicer way....

SHAM

02-19-2005, 04:10 PM

Poles had their own armies and uniforms. Also fi I remember correctly our armies (on wester and eastern front) were 4th of size - bigger than french army.

But after the germans passed through, didnt they fight in the british army and therefore look like a british soldier, i.e. british uniform with a polish badge and british tin hat? so you could say there will be a statue of an allied soldier, when u consider how polish, british, indian etc etc would have wore the same uniform to a certain extent. And as everyone else says, if they are gona single out poles they might aswell put a statue of every other country who took part...the list is very long.

LeMat

02-19-2005, 04:14 PM

No. It was polish army. We had english battledress but it was polish army. Also in Russia we had our own army - not in russian uniforms.

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 04:16 PM

@Dima-RussianArms

You didn't understand me.
Yes I did very well.

I didnt write stronger and richer than Russia but stronger and richer than before. Putin don`t want our country to be strong.
PUTIN DOESN"T CARE ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY! WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

We are political rivals - we always were. For example Ukraine - it was diplomatical fight and we won.
We are not "political rivals", we don't even play in the same league...:cantbeli:

Poland isn't some small country in Europe - is one of the bigger countries.
Our GDP per capita is about 80% higher than yours.
Dear, Russia is Hilton/Marriort, Poland is "mom and pop bead & breakfast", does this get the message across?

I donn't want to say that we are empire. But people in Russia don't want to understand that Poland isn't some small poor country wihout any respect. I I have told you already, read my lips: PEOPLE IN RUSSIA DON"T CARE.
Why don't you get it????

Every day we are getting richer, and stronger and that hurts some people who dream about new soviet Russia.
:cantbeli:
Ridiculous and retarded at the same time.

SHAM

02-19-2005, 04:20 PM

Herrmannek

02-19-2005, 04:23 PM

Everyopne knew this will be flamebait so ..
Dima if Putin doesn't cares tell my why most of his public speaches in that or other way touches polish topic. After his failure in Ukraine he went personal onto Kwasniewaki and our statistics like unemployment , etc.. I'm sure he prepared for that, esspecialy if he is not interested, how he could know such detailed data when some local russian reporter asked him "totaly random question" ;) about that. Late note of ministry of foregin afairs also points that someone in cremlin even if not cares is making Poles main foe of the nation :), Ah and i would forget about those oil cuts on pipelines from russia to us... I tell you dima Putin is very interestedin polish maters and even he don't care about us he is using us for his political games on for local use.. And lets say that on Loud he doesn't Like Poles :)

Herrmannek

02-19-2005, 04:25 PM

SHAM

02-19-2005, 04:29 PM

No. It was polish army. We had english battledress but it was polish army. Also in Russia we had our own army - not in russian uniforms.

Yes i understand what ure saying..but if you put a statue of a polish soldier in british battle dress on the same statue as a british soldier it would look the same. so esthetically as a monument statue, polish soldiers will be covered.
Lemat alredy told you that polish soldiers used polish uniforms, except batledresses for western armies... celebration uniforms were polish for example in most of the units.

i dont think they are going to be puting statues of celebration uniforms. i.e. a british soldier with his bear hat on his head, would probably be battle dress like most other statues for the era.
Such as this pic i have found of polish soldiers from ww2 and therefore look like any other allied soldier, be they indian australian or whatever.

http://img176.exs.cx/img176/5604/polish7ua.jpg

Kitsune

02-19-2005, 04:31 PM

Incredible.
They forgot Poland. :cantbeli:

As often as this happens, you Poles should be used to being forgotten, by now.

;)

In any case, we Germans know how you feel. There is no German soldier on the monument either. :(
So just relax. You aren't alone in this world. You have our sympathies. :petting:

p-)

LeMat

02-19-2005, 04:34 PM

[
PUTIN DOESN"T CARE ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY! WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

So why is he speaking about our president so unfriedly thing? Why do you make us trouble with exporting our goods to Russia? Why you didn't want us in NATO and EU?

We are not "political rivals", we don't even play in the same league...:cantbeli:

But our interests sometimes collides.

Dear, Russia is Hilton/Marriort, Poland is "mom and pop bead & breakfast", does this get the message across?

Hilton is USA. Poland is small but quite comfortable hotel. Russia is big 5 stars hotel which needs to be rebuild because is in not very good condition.

I I have told you already, read my lips: PEOPLE IN RUSSIA DON"T CARE.
Why don't you get it????

People don't. Some politicals do.

:cantbeli:
Ridiculous and retarded at the same time.

Who? You?

@SHAM

But we had also army in Russia.

Herrmannek

02-19-2005, 04:35 PM

Incredible.
They forgot Poland. :cantbeli:

Don't be sad if things will go in the direction they are going today, such monuments In 20years plus will for sure have german soldier :)

SHAM

02-19-2005, 04:44 PM

Kitsune, wait and see the monument first, maybe they want 4 soldiers because it is a square shaped one and want a soldier for each side, i tried finding pics of friench soldiers in ww2, i suspect they wore british battle dress too.

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 04:46 PM

Everyopne knew this will be flamebait so ..
Dima if Putin doesn't cares tell my why most of his public speaches in that or other way touches polish topic.
Herrmannek, you do realize that most of your know about Putin comes from the polish media, naturaly they are going to concentrate on those extremely rare (it only happened during the events in Ukraine) occasions when he does it.
So how about this, every year Putin makes "state of the union address", if you can find him mentioning Poland more than once (even if that) there is some substance to your claim, otherwise it is a wishfull thinking about self significance.

After his failure in Ukraine he went personal onto Kwasniewaki and our statistics like unemployment , etc.. I'm sure he prepared for that, esspecialy if he is not interested, how he could know such detailed data when some local russian reporter asked him "totaly random question" ;) about that.
Perpahps they never mention this fact in the polish media, but since day one Putin has been know to be a "walking encyclopedia", he seems to know alot about places that most people can't even find on the map and is always prepared to talk about them, part of his KGB background I guess. :lol: Sorry, but Poland is just one of many.

, Ah and i would forget about those oil cuts on pipelines from russia to us...
Yeah, you buy oil from us, so what? If not you, it would be someone else...

I tell you dima Putin is very interestedin polish maters and even he don't care about us he is using us for his political games on for local use
Like for example? And please leave ukraine out of it.

.. And lets say that on Loud he doesn't Like Poles :)
You give yourselfs too much significance. You want him not to like you, so you can look big and important, the fact is - you are not.

Kitsune

02-19-2005, 04:47 PM

Yeah, thinking about it, I simply cannot believe that they have forgotten a German soldier. :bash:
How could they? A German soldier belongs on this monument, too. :fork:

Or even more than one. What about a nice heap of German soldiers? Probably forming the whole base of the structure? Wouldn't that be a tasteful way of aknowledging that, somehow, in some way, German soldiers contributed to the heroics of the others? (Admit it...what would WWII have been without them? Where would the challenge have been?) Instead of shamelessly ignoring their role?!?
(Aditionally, I somehow have the feeling that LeMat would like the idea...)

Has someone Putins E-mail adress? This has to be corrected !!!

p-)

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 04:50 PM

Incredible.
They forgot Poland. :cantbeli:

That it just plain funny :lol:

Classic.

DaMasta!

02-19-2005, 04:53 PM

Try there:

http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 05:04 PM

So why is he speaking about our president so unfriedly thing?
Example please.

Why do you make us trouble with exporting our goods to Russia?
It is not just you, it is called "supporting home producer".

Why you didn't want us in NATO
Commonsense

and EU?
How did you come to that conclusion?

But our interests sometimes collides.
Dear, everyones interests collide.

Hilton is USA. Poland is small but quite comfortable hotel. Russia is big 5 stars hotel which needs to be rebuild because is in not very good condition
My analogy was refering to the overall size/weight. But you are right USA is Hilton :lol: (if you are not familiar with the field, Hilton is loosing money and positions all over the industry)
Has no relevance but again it is accurate.

People don't. Some politicals do.
So some polititians are Russia?
Which polititians whose goal is creating problems for Poland are you talking about, names please.

Who? You?
[color=blue]No, most of you statements are.

But we had also army in Russia.
So Russia hated you so much they have allowed you to have your own army?

LeMat

02-19-2005, 05:17 PM

Example please.

Putin told: "Kwasniewski looks like he is looking for a job. He should take care of his own problems - unemployment, and so on"

It is not just you, it is called "supporting home producer".

So why exporters from other EU countries don't have that problems?

Commonsense

You goverment told that your nukes are aimed in Poland when we joined NATO.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Russia wasn't friendly. You wanted exteritorial corridor to Kaliningrad.

Dear, everyones interests collide.

Of course. And than people/countries become rivals.

My analogy was refering to the overall size/weight. But you are right USA is Hilton :lol: (if you are not familiar with the field, Hilton is loosing money and positions all over the industry)
Has no relevance but again it is accurate.

You are right. USA has problems. I'm not USA lover.

So some polititians are Russia?
Which polititians whose goal is creating problems for Poland are you talking about, names please.

Vladimir Putin. Troubles described above.

[color=blue]No, most of you statements are.

No. I really like Russia. I preffer Russia than USA because we are culturally closer. But as you can see our countries just can't be friends. We never were.

So Russia hated you so much they have allowed you to have your own army?

Army under command of russian soldier who suddely became posish marschall.

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 05:48 PM

Putin told: "Kwasniewski looks like he is looking for a job. He should take care of his own problems - unemployment, and so on"
So pretty much he said that Kwasnewski should stop being USA's bitch and he needs to solve problems in his own country before advising on anyone elses.
Pretty sharp response, he definitely scored some points with it.
Putin was right, I'd tell Kwasnewski the same.

So why exporters from other EU countries don't have that problems?
I do not know but my guess would be that Russia doesn't see Poland and other new members as part of the real EU (France, Germany, Italy, etc)

You goverment told that your nukes are aimed in Poland when we joined NATO.
Yep, that is what you get for being part of the club. You are a potential hostile now.
Like I have said - commonsense.

Russia wasn't friendly. You wanted exteritorial corridor to Kaliningrad.
Friendly? What is "Friendly"?
If Russia wasn't "friendly" they would buldoze their way with tanks to Kaliningrad (stupid response to a not so smart statement)

Of course. And than people/countries become rivals.
Rivals have to play in the same league.
China, Russia and US are rivals.
India and Pakistan are rivals.
France and UK are rivals.

Russia and Poland are not rivals.

Let me put it this way: I am boxer, so is Tyson, but we are not rivals;)

Vladimir Putin. Troubles described above
You have used "polititians" - plural, so there has to more than one.
And again, Putin doesn't count since you can't prove his hatred for Poland.
If he hated Poland we wouldn't deal with you (oil, gas, consumer goods, etc)

No. I really like Russia. I preffer Russia than USA because we are culturally closer. But as you can see our countries just can't be friends. We never were.
And we never will be if you guys keep this attitude...
Listen guys, what I am trying to say is be free, be independent, be democratic be proud, you don't have to be aligned with anybody - be your own country.

Army under command of russian soldier who suddely became posish marschall.
[color=blue]I didn't know about this.
Stalin really appointed russian soldier as a commander a polish army?

LeMat

02-19-2005, 06:07 PM

So pretty much he said that Kwasnewski should stop being USA's bitch and he needs to solve problems in his own country before advising on anyone elses.
Pretty sharp response, he definitely scored some points with it.
Putin was right, I'd tell Kwasnewski the same.

Had Kwasniewski told that Putin should solve his own problem in Chechenya before advising in Ukraine problems?
So only Russia can has foreign interests?

I do not know but my guess would be that Russia doesn't see Poland and other new members as part of the real EU (France, Germany, Italy, etc)

But we are part or real EU and you just have to accept that.

Yep, that is what you get for being part of the club. You are a potential hostile now.
Like I have said - commonsense.

Sure. We just don't have any better things to do but trying to capture
Moscow again.
Tell me why Poland should attack Russia?

Friendly? What is "Friendly"?
If Russia wasn't "friendly" they would buldoze their way with tanks to Kaliningrad (stupid response to a not so smart statement)

So demanding exteritorial corridor (like Hitler in 1939) is friendly move?

Rivals have to play in the same league.
China, Russia and US are rivals.
India and Pakistan are rivals.
France and UK are rivals.

Sometimes team from second or third league can kick out first league opponent.

Russia and Poland are not rivals.

If not why do you make troubles to our exporters? If we are so poor and pathetic we won't make any danger to your superb economy.

Let me put it this way: I am boxer, so is Tyson, but we are not rivals;)

If you fight you are rivals. Finalnd was your rival during winter war.

Vladimir Putin. Troubles described above
You have used "polititians" - plural, so there has to more than one.

Sorry I don't know names of all your politicals. I know Putin and Zhirinowsky (also Poles-eater).

And again, Putin doesn't count since you can't prove his hatred for Poland.
If he hated Poland we wouldn't deal with you (oil, gas, consumer goods, etc)

Business is business.

And we never will be if you guys keep this attitude...
Listen guys, what I am trying to say is be free, be independent, be democratic be proud, you don't have to be aligned with anybody - be your own country.

So Poland should be quiet when Russia will be making business in countries near our borders? Not a chance.

[color=blue]I didn't know about this.
Stalin really appointed russian soldier as a commander a polish army?

Yes. Marschall Rokosowski (who was "Pole") and general Swierczewski (who was sovietized Pole).
We have a joke:
Why Rokosowski has one eyebrow upper than another one?
He is still surprised because Stalin told him "You are Pole".

Rokosowski had one eyebrow lifted up.

Dima-RussianArms

02-19-2005, 06:58 PM

Had Kwasniewski told that Putin should solve his own problem in Chechenya before advising in Ukraine problems?
I do not recall Putin making speeches for Yanukovich and participating in the circus on "maidan"
Kwasnewski did.

So only Russia can has foreign interests?
Of course not. But the difference is that Russia determins its own national interests when Poland is being told what should be its national interests.

But we are part or real EU and you just have to accept that.
It is a matter of perception. Yes you are a member but you are not of the same caliber as "old" members.

Sure. We just don't have any better things to do but trying to capture
Moscow again.
Of course not. But you have joined NATO - potentialy hostile organization to Russia. Again you are not special, Russia targets all NATO countries.

If you were strong, proud or just smart, you'd be like Finland.
Look at them, they are not part of anything and don't want to be...
A the same time look at "strong" and "independent" Poland seeking defence behind the Big Brother, so much for pride...
And after that you talk about respect???
Someones bitches and weak don't get respect, their masters do....

So demanding exteritorial corridor (like Hitler in 1939) is friendly move?
Did country officialy demanded it or some individuals did?

Sometimes team from second or third league can kick out first league opponent.
Not in this world. Size matters.

If not why do you make troubles to our exporters?
You have answered this question yourself: business is business.

If we are so poor and pathetic we won't make any danger to your superb economy.
No you won't, but private russian business doesn't like to share and therefore has lobbyists protecting its interests. Its a common worldwide practice.

If you fight you are rivals. Finalnd was your rival during winter war.
Define "rival".

Sorry I don't know names of all your politicals.
It is not about knowing names it is about you not having proof to back up you statement.

I know Putin and Zhirinowsky (also Poles-eater).
Putin is out of the question because you have no proof. I might as well say that Kwasnevski hates me personally because he allows poles to make anti-russian posts on this board....
As for Zhirinovskij being pole-hater, sorry to dissapoint you again - you are not that special.
Dear, he hates everyone: Russians, Americans, Arabs, Chinese and even Eskimos. He is a clown and we love him for that.

So Poland should be quiet when Russia will be making business in countries near our borders? Not a chance.
[color=blue]No, but you should stop prostituting yourselfs. I have already mentioned Finland as an example.

Yes. Marschall Rokosowski (who was "Pole") and general Swierczewski (who was sovietized Pole).

[color=blue]But you have said that he was a "soldier", no?
So basically Stalin have put a soviet marshall with a polish background in charge of polish forces?
Tell me it is not a better deal than you got from other allies, where you had some Joe from Idaho who didn't even know what Poland was giving orders to your officers...

Musashi

02-19-2005, 06:59 PM

Why polish soldier?
Why not chineese, australian, canadian, french etc? What makes polish soldiers more special?

Nothing, but:

breaking enigma code
taking part in fights in the Eastern, Western, African, Italian and Far Eastern (if you laugh at that I can tell you Polish pilots fought against Japanese) Fronts as well as Atlantic (including convoys for the Soviet Union) and Mediterranean
fights in Berlin (Poles seized for example Berliner Politechnik, Tiergarten, Branderburger Tor and Londonstrasse)
Poles shot down 13+% of German planes during the battle of Britain in 1940. Then the Brits even did not invite them for the Victory Parade in 1945, but it's quite other matter
Poland lost 1/6 of population and was the most destroyed country (comparing to her area and population) of all the countries which took part in WW II

We don't need Vova's P. monument. It's no need to give him a satisfaction we are angry at that we will be ignored. Fuc'k him :bash: Let him worry about his decreasing approval rate :D :lol:

Bolanda akbar!
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/avatars/209074368641d74156db9dc.gif

walford

02-19-2005, 07:42 PM

I haven't a drop of Polish blood in my veins, but have always admired the Poles. No one can say that they did not do their part during WWII:Polish contribution to World War II (http://www.answers.com/topic/polish-contribution-to-world-war-ii)
Major battles and campaigns in which Polish regular forces took part:

* Polish September Campaign (1939)
o Battle of the Bzura River
o Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski
o Battle of Kock (1939)
o Battle of Warsaw (1939)
* British campaign in Norway (Battle of Narvik)
* French Campaign
* Battle of Britain
* Battle of the Atlantic
* Battle of Tobruk
* Operation Jubilee (Battle of Dieppe)
* Battle of Lenino
* Battle of Normandy (D-Day)
* Battle of Monte Cassino
* Battle of Falaise
* Operation Market Garden (Battle of Arnhem: "A Bridge Too Far")
* Battle of Ancona
* Battle of Bologna
* Battle of Berlin Monte Cassino: War cemetary in Italy (http://www.stormloader.com/mrsg/italy/mcassino.html)
Between September, 1943 and May, 1944 the town was occupied by the Germans. The Germans had a great strategic position - on the mountain - and were able to see the entire area. The Allied Forces made many unsuccessful attempts to conquer Monte Cassino. Finally after a battle that lasted seven days, the Polish soldiers overtook the German army. 860 Polish soldiers died and 2800 were wounded in that fierce battle. The battle also resulted in the bombing of the monastery. More than a thousand Polish soldiers are buried in the Polish cemetery located on the mountain across from the abbey.Forgotten Soldiers of WWII (http://www.polamcon.org/forgotten-soldiers0504.htm)
Rare Footage, Recollections Highlight Documentary About Polish Revolt Against Nazi Occupation
In the summer of 1944, an underground army of ordinary citizens in Warsaw rose up against their Nazi occupiers in the belief that the D-Day invasion in the west and Soviet advances in the east gave them a chance for freedom. Underground fighters, many of them teenagers, fought with homemade weapons against a heavily fortified German army.

They believed the fight would last for only the few days until the Allies could come to their aid. Instead, they fought for 63 days alone.

When the Poles most needed Allied help, Soviet dictator Josef Stalin refused to let his troops cross the Vistula River to aid the Poles in liberating Warsaw. And Poland's other allies, the United States and England, were reluctant to force the issue with Stalin. Unknown to Polish leaders and citizens at the time, Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill had struck a deal with Stalin, ceding him control over Central Europe in return for his help fighting the Germans. In the end, the Nazis slaughtered - the Polish resistance and razed Warsaw. More than 200,000 people died. Half a million were driven out of the city. More than three quarters of the Underground Army had perished; many of the survivors ended up in Soviet prisons. Yet the story of this tragic loss received little attention. Database: Polish Soldiers in France (http://www.beskid.com/base/indexgb.php)
A tribute to the Polish soldiers who came to fight and die for a homeland they did not belong to.
This dadabase compiles information on Polish Soldiers who died during the Second World War and were buried in different cemetaries in FranceBreaking the Enigma code: Polish contribution to victory (http://www.avoca.ndirect.co.uk/enigma/enigma9.htm)
...As Enigma evolved into a more complex and sophisticated machine, so too did the Polish methods and techniques. Just before the beginning of WW2 the Poles transferred all their know-how and equipment to the French and British Allies for their use in the coming war. When war started on September 1st, 1939, the Polish cryptologists were quickly evacuated through Romania to France. By October 1939 the reorganised cryptology unit started to decrypt Enigma messages again. Until the fall of France on June 17th, 1940 the Polish unit operated officially in France. After that they went underground in "Vichy" France, where they operated until November 1942 when the Germans occupied southern France. Their escape to neutral, but friendly with Germany, Spain was a disaster as they were apprehended and imprisoned in cruel interment camps. Two key cryptologists and three radio operators managed to escape and reach England but most fared much worse. Two senior intelligence officers and three engineers were caught by the Gestapo and were sent to German concentration camps. The two officers were liberated by the US Army but the three engineers perished. A Question of Honor The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II (http://www.questionofhonor.com/questionofhonor.htm)
...first treated with disdain by the RAF, the Polish pilots played a crucial role during the Battle of Britain, where their daredevil skill in engaging German Messerschmitts in close and deadly combat while protecting the planes in their own groups soon made them legendary. And we learn what happened to them after the war, when their country was abandoned and handed over to the Soviet Union.
Continuing the Polish contribution to the Battle of Britain [from the first link in this post]:
...Polish pilots were among the most experienced in the battle, most of them having already fought in the 1939 September Campaign in Poland and the 1940 Battle of France. Additionally, prewar Poland had set a very high standard of pilot training. 303 Squadron, named after the Polish-American hero, General Tadeusz Kosciuszko, achieved the highest number of kills (273) of all fighter squadrons engaged in the Battle of Britain, even though it only joined the combat on August 30, 1940: these 5% of pilots were responsible for a phenomenal 12% of total victories in the Battle...

Musashi

02-19-2005, 08:02 PM

Some Governments have a strange version of saying "thank you" :bash: :cantbeli:

1946
June 8 – The British government bars Polish forces under British command from marching in the Victory Parade out of fear of offending Stalin.
http://www.questionofhonor.com/questionofhonor.htm
Is it such a behaviour civilised or not? :roll:

Oh, the full version is worthy of posting.

1772-1918
Poland partitioned by Russia, Prussia and Austria.

1776-1781
Polish engineer Tadeusz Kosciuszko plays pivotal role in the Continental Army’s victory in the American Revolution.

1794
Kosciuszko leads a failed revolt against Poland’s Russian occupiers.

1918
Poland regains its independence following the collapse of the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian empires after World War I.

1919
Merian Cooper and six other former U.S. Army pilots offer their services to Poland in the 1919-1920 Soviet-Polish war. The Americans call themselves the Kosciuszko Squadron – a squadron that will live on in the Polish Air Force after the Americans go home.

1939
Sept. 1 – Germany invades Poland. Britain and France declare war on Germany to begin World War II.

September 17– Under the 1939 treaty between Germany and Soviet Russia, the Red Army invades Poland from the east. Their country doomed, members of the Kosciuszko Squadron and thousands of other Polish military head for France to fight again.

1940
June – France falls, and Polish airmen escape to Britain.

August 2 –One of two all-Polish squadrons is formed at Northolt, outside London. The RAF calls it the 303 Squadron, but Polish pilots prefer “the Kosciuszko Squadron.”

August 31 – After weeks of training, the Kosciuszko Squadron sees its first combat in the Battle of Britain; shoots down six German planes.

Sept. 7 – On the first day of the London Blitz, the Kosciuszko Squadron is credited with fourteen German kills, an RAF record.

October 31 – At the end of the Battle of Britain, the Kosciuszko Squadron is credited with shooting down 126 German planes in six weeks of combat, more “kills” than were credited to any other squadron attached to the RAF during that same period. Nine of the KoKciuszko Squadron pilots become aces; five are awarded the RAF’s Distinguished Flying Cross.

1941
June 22 – Germany invades the Soviet Union, in the process driving the Red Army out of Poland.

July 30 – Poland signs a treaty with the Soviet Union at the behest of Winston Churchill.

September – New Polish army formed in USSR by Poles who had been deported earlier to Soviet gulags and collective farms. These Poles later become the Polish II Corps based in the Middle East.

1943
April 13 – German troops find the bodies of more than 4,000 Polish officers buried in Katyn forest in western Russia; Germany claims the Soviets are responsible for the murders.

April 19 – Jewish insurgents begin climactic phase of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

April 26 -- After the Polish government-in-exile asks for an International Red Cross investigation of Katyn, the Soviet Union severs diplomatic relations with Poland.

November – Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt secretly agree at the Tehran Conference to cede eastern Poland to Stalin.

1944
May 18-- The Polish II Corps captures Monte Cassino, opening the door to Rome.

August 1 –Poland’s Home Army launches an uprising in Warsaw against the city’s Nazi occupiers.

October – After two months of fighting without Allied help, the Home Army in Warsaw surrenders. Warsaw residents are sent to German labor and concentration camps; the city is razed.

1945
February – Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin agree at Yalta that Poland should be governed by a provisional, Soviet-backed Communist regime.

May 7 – Germany surrenders; WWII in Europe is over.

July 5 – The United States and Britain withdraw formal recognition from the Polish government-in-exile in London and recognize the Soviet-backed, communist regime in Warsaw as the legitimate government of Poland.

1946
June 8 – The British government bars Polish forces under British command from marching in the Victory Parade out of fear of offending Stalin.

November 27 – The Kosciuszko Squadron is disbanded.

1989
Poland regains its independence.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-20-2005, 04:08 AM

In any case, we Germans know how you feel. There is no German soldier on the monument either. :(
So just relax. You aren't alone in this world. You have our sympathies. :petting:

p-)

... and some historians say that it would be better for Poland if we joined the Axis in the WWII :lol:

perdurabo

02-20-2005, 04:43 AM

geeezzz i say f* russians we just need one more flower rewolution in Belarus and one in kaliningrad area and we are done with them.

Musashi

02-20-2005, 04:45 AM

geeezzz i say f* russians we just need one more flower rewolution in Belarus and one in kaliningrad area and we are done with them.
Why Kaliningrad? I don't understand you.

perdurabo

02-20-2005, 04:52 AM

Musashi

02-20-2005, 05:27 AM

LeMat

02-20-2005, 05:36 AM

I do not recall Putin making speeches for Yanukovich and participating in the circus on "maidan"
Kwasnewski did.

But Putin did it. So he shouldn't tell to our president that Kwasniewski should be quiet.

Of course not. But the difference is that Russia determins its own national interests when Poland is being told what should be its national interests.

Who told Poland what should be our interests? Ukraine was our very own interest. I think that Russia want to tell us what we can do but it is pointless.

It is a matter of perception. Yes you are a member but you are not of the same caliber as "old" members.

Strange. Learn something about real polish position in UE - for example during voting. Still hurts that we are in EU?

Of course not. But you have joined NATO - potentialy hostile organization to Russia. Again you are not special, Russia targets all NATO countries.

So why only we were warned that nukes are armed in Warsaw? You really think that NATO will attack Russia? Why? We don't your empty spaces and mummy of Lenin.

If you were strong, proud or just smart, you'd be like Finland.
Look at them, they are not part of anything and don't want to be...
A the same time look at "strong" and "independent" Poland seeking defence behind the Big Brother, so much for pride...

We are smart. We know that our 38 millions nation won't be able to defend against bigger enemy so that why we have found stronger friends like EU and NATO. We don't want to have troubles like Finland during Winter War.

And after that you talk about respect???
Someones bitches and weak don't get respect, their masters do....

Right. Resepct for Chechenya - your masters who can blow up a bomb in the center of Moscow.

Why are you so aggresive? To much vodka?

Did country officialy demanded it or some individuals did?

Yes. Someone from your goverment - sorry but I don't know names. Maybe someone from Lithuania will tell you because you wanted it from they too.

Not in this world. Size matters.

Like in Chechenya or Afghanistan? Or in Ukraine last weeks?

You have answered this question yourself: business is business.

But if we are so week we are not a danger.

No you won't, but private russian business doesn't like to share and therefore has lobbyists protecting its interests. Its a common worldwide practice.

But if you economy is so superb you don't have to fear because in Russia noone will buy our ****ty goods.

Define "rival".

Someone who are challenging you at a time. Other words opponent or enemy.

It is not about knowing names it is about you not having proof to back up you statement.

Should I find official letter from Cremlin?

Putin is out of the question because you have no proof. I might as well say that Kwasnevski hates me personally because he allows poles to make anti-russian posts on this board....

This is private board of Kwasniewski?

As for Zhirinovskij being pole-hater, sorry to dissapoint you again - you are not that special.
Dear, he hates everyone: Russians, Americans, Arabs, Chinese and even Eskimos. He is a clown and we love him for that.

Great. You must be proud of him.

[color=blue]No, but you should stop prostituting yourselfs. I have already mentioned Finland as an example.

For many years Finland was under real control of Russia. We don't want to be part of great Russia again. Why we are prostituting? Because we preffered NATO than Warsaw Pact? Or maybe because we joined EU? You think about Iraq war? I tell you one "secret" - what is in Iraq? OIL. What do we buy in Russia? OIL. Why are we in Iraq? Because we want to have different supply of OIL which will be dependent on us. And we won't need your oil anymore. We also want to buy gas from Scandinavia and you will have to sell your resources to China. Simple? This is not prostitution - this is wise politic.

[color=blue]But you have said that he was a "soldier", no?
So basically Stalin have put a soviet marshall with a polish background in charge of polish forces?
Tell me it is not a better deal than you got from other allies, where you had some Joe from Idaho who didn't even know what Poland was giving orders to your officers...

On western front we have our own commanders from Poland. In Russia we had given some guys who even couldn't speak polish and they were our generals.

Musashi

02-20-2005, 05:44 AM

And after that you talk about respect???
Someones bitches and weak don't get respect, their masters do....

Right. Resepct for Chechenya - your masters who can blow up a bomb in the center of Moscow.

Why are you so aggresive? To much vodka?
LeMat, stop trolling :bash: It was a big exaggeration.
Dymitr has contrary opinion than we, but he is far more cultural than you!

LeMat

02-20-2005, 05:50 AM

@Musashi

Telling that our country prostituting bitch is "more cultural"?

Musashi

02-20-2005, 06:00 AM

@Musashi

Telling that our country prostituting bitch is "more cultural"?
Sorry, I missed it.

My method is better :D
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=764238#764238

Lokos

02-20-2005, 08:56 AM

Herrmannek

02-20-2005, 09:04 AM

There were more Indians in the British Army than Poles. Why don't they have their place in that statue?

This is a ridiculous whinging session. If you don't like the statue, make your own version.

Some of the things posted on this thread are not worth responding to. Polish ultra-nationalism is as bad as anything the Russians or the Americans have.

Lokos

Indians where Brits back then :), Poles mostly weren't part of british army, they served under british comand but in Polish forces with were serving for polish govt on the exile...

Argo AdAm

02-20-2005, 09:13 AM

Maybe this monument should look like this photo (put by Musashi in the other thread) ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Musashi-san/together1939.gif
Brothers in arms ;)

Wodan

02-20-2005, 09:34 AM

geeezzz i say f* russians we just need one more flower rewolution in Belarus and one in kaliningrad area and we are done with them.
Why Kaliningrad? I don't understand you.
look at map where are the nearest russians? "independent republic of kalliningrad" sounds niece :lol:

Unabhängige Republik Königsberg, for you! p-)

bloddyaxe

02-20-2005, 09:52 AM

Maybe Poland should make their own memorial statue or something of a polish soldier trampling on all the other countries soldiers as a response? p-)

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-20-2005, 10:33 AM

Freibier

02-20-2005, 11:58 AM

Para

02-20-2005, 12:47 PM

With out taking away anything from the Poles or Checzs that they did for the war effort, I would like to point that the largest volunteer army ever raised was in India where 8 million men volunteered to fight for Britain. They fought in Europe, Africa, and all over Asia, and obtained much credit for them selfs and I would hate to see them over looked.

walford

02-20-2005, 01:32 PM

...Some of the things posted on this thread are not worth responding to...Well, you don't need to trouble yourself then. No really. :petting:

Lokos

02-20-2005, 10:10 PM

Argo Adam:

Those fellows in brown killed a lot more Germans than Poles ever did. Brothers in arms, indeed.

Walford:

Well, I won't. And I haven't. Not really.

:|

Lokos

oregongrunt

02-21-2005, 12:08 AM

Your country was taken over in WW2 so why should you get a statue? Maybe an "I Surrendered" one with Poland and France holding hands.

Drako

02-21-2005, 04:06 AM

Those fellows in brown killed a lot more Germans than Poles ever did. Brothers in arms, indeed.

Killing Germans doesn't make them heroes although papa Stalin wanted everyone to believe so. Should I remind that soviets main aim was not to beat Germans but to take over as big part of Europe as possible. I think Polish soldier shouldn't be on that monument because Russia is the last country which should build something like that (of course besides Germany). Putting our soldier next to the soviet one would be an insult for those who died protecting Polish eastern border in '39, who were murdered in Katyn and to those who were murdered in their homes when soviet units wanted to have some "fun" while bringing "freedom" to Poland.

Your country was taken over in WW2 so why should you get a statue? Maybe an "I Surrendered" one with Poland and France holding hands.

It is the most stupid comment I read here. If your purpose was to show your ignorance you surely succeded.

walford

02-21-2005, 05:07 AM

Killing Germans doesn't make them heroes although papa Stalin wanted everyone to believe so. Should I remind that soviets main aim was not to beat Germans but to take over as big part of Europe as possible. I think Polish soldier shouldn't be on that monument because Russia is the last country which should build something like that (of course besides Germany). Putting our soldier next to the soviet one would be an insult for those who died protecting Polish eastern border in '39, who were murdered in Katyn and to those who were murdered in their homes when soviet units wanted to have some "fun" while bringing "freedom" to Poland.So much for Stalin's Great Patriotic War. Best post of this thread.

Knutsen

02-21-2005, 06:09 AM

Your country was taken over in WW2 so why should you get a statue? Maybe an "I Surrendered" one with Poland and France holding hands.

Get a brain before opening your mouth.

Btw, talking about the statue, i think it should be a unidentified guy and a sign with all the countries involved written on it, pretty much like the statue in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Its not that hard, that way everyone would be satisfied.

About Drako's post, i agree with entirely with it, but on the other hand i think all the people who fought need any kind of remembrance, even statues in russia.

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-21-2005, 09:57 AM

Your country was taken over in WW2 so why should you get a statue? Maybe an "I Surrendered" one with Poland and France holding hands.

rofl

Poland never surrendered, moron

Lokos

02-21-2005, 10:08 AM

Drako:

Would it also be an insult to the thousands of Poles who fought the Germans with the Soviets? You know, like the Polish folks who fought in Berlin?

As for your point regarding the SU's main war aim... Well, look, you seem to be a *relatively* objective fellow, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Name one instance, one source that shows the main Soviet aim at the onset of the war as being 'the take-over of Europe'. I've never found anything to suggest that, and I don't think you will either.

You wouldn't happen to be familiar with the Buffer State System, would you?

So much for Stalin's Great Patriotic War. Best post of this thread.

LOL! Yeah, one unsupported opinion decisively shows that 'Stalin's Great Patriotic War' was all about taking over Europe. Or is it the best post of this thread because it most accurately conveys YOUR opinions, Walford?

Lokos

Lokos

02-21-2005, 10:09 AM

Oregongrunt:

Bad monkey! :bash:

Lokos

Drako

02-21-2005, 11:12 AM

Again - fighting against the same enemy doesn't mean that we were allies. SU was an allay of our allay. You should understand that anything would be better than Nazis occupation and supporting soviet troops in fighting Nazis had nothing to do with friendship. Besides there still were hopes we would get rid of soviets after nazis are done.

Well, look, you seem to be a *relatively* objective fellow, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Name one instance, one source that shows the main Soviet aim at the onset of the war as being 'the take-over of Europe'.

I think it is you who is very relative. I dunno if you're a Russian but you sound biased and you misinterpret my words. I didn't write "take over Europe" but "take as much as they could". And there are many proofs that I'm right - the biggest one is that after WWII SU's border ended in Berlin. Besides - SU couldn't fight nazism as a crime regime simply because communism was as bad as nazism. You think Stalin cared how many people Hitler killed? Stalin had hands covered with blood of millions as well. Warsaw uprising was an example of good intentions of Stalin.

Lokos

02-21-2005, 11:18 AM

Drako

02-21-2005, 11:41 AM

LeMat

02-21-2005, 12:01 PM

Drako:

We could discuss the Warsaw Uprising. I suppose. For example, we could talk all about how it started at the worst possible time for Soviet forces completely exhausted after ten weeks of hard campaigning.

:bash: :bash: :bash:
So can you tell me why russian radio was calling "Poles take your guns and fight, we will help you"?

Can you tell me why Russians were arresting polish patriots in 1944 and killing them?

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 12:11 PM

There was never WW2 or world-wide effort to defeat Hitler.

There were 3 separate wars: War in Europe, War in Pacific and the Great Patriotic War.
All of the "allies" pursued differernt interests/fought for different reasons.

To Polish people: stop whining, we all now that you were the victim, used, obused and forgotten by everyone, blahblahblah...
Gosh, you are like the biggest cry babby there is...
What a bunch of miserable pricks :cantbeli:

walford

02-21-2005, 12:29 PM

LOL! Yeah, one unsupported opinion decisively shows that 'Stalin's Great Patriotic War' was all about taking over Europe. Or is it the best post of this thread because it most accurately conveys YOUR opinionsOK Now I see that you're having a bit of fun with us. The idea that the USSR did not actually take over half of Europe and install puppet regimes was not imperialism! This 'buffer-state' system you refer to is indeed the same thing. If we decided to make buffer states of Canada and Mexico, it would be considered as much.

Furthermore if the people of one of our unwilling 'allies' decided they no longer wished to be our buffer states and we sent in tanks to quash such nonsense -- as did the Red Army with respect to Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 -- that would likely be seen as an empire preserving a vassal state as well.

Of course there are Soviet apologists who have been prepared to split semantic hairs on those historical events also.

And yet I am the one who is not objective? I am not the one who finds it necessary to resort to the argumentum ad hominem (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html) on a regular basis.

I am beginning to suspect that your have a certain agenda (http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/) here -- and not to participate in any reasonable discussion.

Musashi

02-21-2005, 12:33 PM

Dymitr, you are miserable, not we.
Soviets did not allow Allied planes which dropped containers to land on their airfields during Warsaw Uprising. Could you explain me why?
Luftwaffe was bombing all the time without ANY Soviet counteraction. There were even Ju-87s (max speed 375-390 km/h) which were retired from other fronts, because they were too easy prey for fighters in 1944.

mack pl

02-21-2005, 12:38 PM

Gosh, you are like the biggest cry babby there is...
What a bunch of miserable pricks :cantbeli:

as you said in another thread, only Poles and Jews act like that :lol: But hey, you are from Mighty Russia, you couldnt care less, right? You are really hardcore Dima woot :hug:

Pozdro ;)

PS. I agree with Knutsen

Btw, talking about the statue, i think it should be a unidentified guy and a sign with all the countries involved written on it, pretty much like the statue in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Its not that hard, that way everyone would be satisfied.

but this satue is(will be) stand in Russia, so only they have right to make decision about it(how this statue would look)......even If we arent happy of that ;)

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 12:42 PM

Dymitr, you are miserable, not we.
Yes you are, just read thru all of the Poles posts on this board.
You are the most insecure nation I know of.

Soviets did not allow Allied planes which dropped containers to land on their airfields during Warsaw Uprising. Could you explain me why?
No I can't and I also don't care. Stop living in the past, it is 2005 outside, time to move on.

mack pl

02-21-2005, 12:44 PM

five-five-sixer

02-21-2005, 12:46 PM

What?! French?!
Anybody aware of history can just rofl

PS. When I say history I mean the truth not the PC **** politicians feed us.

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 12:50 PM

time to move on???So why the heck you want to build this statue? :lol: Hey, its only history..... ;)
Do I want to build this statue?
Do I have any say in desing of it?

We already have plenty of statues commemorating those who died in that war, why do we need any more?
How about saying "Thank You" in a more meaningfull way, like providing veterans of that war with a decent helthcare or increasing their pensions.

Musashi

02-21-2005, 12:55 PM

Dymitr, you are miserable, not we.
Yes you are, just read thru all of the Poles posts on this board.
You are the most insecure nation I know of.

I also read what you write. Don't you notice their offensive posts are responses for your ones?
Soviets did not allow Allied planes which dropped containers to land on their airfields during Warsaw Uprising. Could you explain me why?
No I can't and I also don't care. Stop living in the past, it is 2005 outside, time to move on.
I know what time is now. You will never understand other nations if you are still stubborn and don't have enough cojones to admit some parts of your history are not a reason to be proud of. As Russian children learn in the school that Polish officers were killed by Germans, not the Soviets. You still think in S.U. categories and such a behaviour is uncivilised. It is not important if it is 2005 or 1980 now, it's important to admit own mistakes instead of giving an evasive answer or no answer.

Drako

02-21-2005, 12:55 PM

We already have plenty of statues commemorating those who died in that war, why do we need any more?
How about saying "Thank You" in a more meaningfull way, like providing veterans of that war with a decent helthcare or increasing their pensions.

x2 I wouldn't express it better.

walford

02-21-2005, 12:58 PM

There was never WW2 or world-wide effort to defeat Hitler. There were 3 separate wars: War in Europe, War in Pacific and the Great Patriotic War. All of the "allies" pursued differernt interests/fought for different reasons.Now you're catching on. For example, it is interesting how the USSR did not declare war on Japan until after the atomic bombs were dropped then promptly swept into Japanese territory and either annexed it or installed one of Lokos' buffer states. [Prior to that time, Soviet Russia was not only unhelpful, she actually captured US warplanes (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/b029-29.html) that strayed into Soviet airspace during the war in the Pacific and detained the pilots.]

Stalin didn't give a rat's ass whether Hitler was in power. He was poised to benefit either way. The Great Patriotic War was one of opportunity for the Soviet Union and she capitalized to great effect.

If the Western powers would have been defeated and Hitler decided to get to the Persian Gulf oil via North Africa instead of through the USSR, the world would have simply been divided between Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo and Stalin. Likely they would have fought it out with each other over the carcass of Europe and the Western hemisphere. And yes that is speculation on my part.

The idea that Stalin was motivated to defend freedom and self-determination from Axis aggression -- as was the case with the Allies -- is pure comedy. I would be fascinated to see the history books that Russian [and for that matter, Japanese] schoolchildren are being given.

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 01:05 PM

Now you're catching on.
I am "catching on"????
Dear, I am ****ing light years ahead of you...

For example, it is interesting how the USSR did not declare war on Japan until after the atomic bombs were dropped then promptly swept into Japanese territory
:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:
You are freaking clueless, aren't you?

walford

02-21-2005, 01:08 PM

Now you're catching on.
I am "catching on"????
Dear, I am f*** light years ahead of you...

For example, it is interesting how the USSR did not declare war on Japan until after the atomic bombs were dropped then promptly swept into Japanese territory
:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:
You are freaking clueless, aren't you?
I tremble before your well-supported refutation. Devastating. You should print this thread and show it to your proud educators.

five-five-sixer

02-21-2005, 01:10 PM

Do I really have to remind ADULT people of what 'sitzkrieg' term comes from?

What the f**k did France do to end(?!) the war? They did nothing to help Poland despite the treaties they signed. Then only after they had been attacked by Hitler they gave up.
Poland didn't. It was the first country to be attacked by Nazi Germany, a contry betrayed by their western allies. Which country suffered greater losses during WWII (I'm serious)?

Did you know there had been an uprising in Warsaw against Germans who slaughtered the insurgents, and then COMPLETELY destroyed the city, while Russians stopped on the other bank to watch it and then liberate(!) the ruins?
'Warsaw uprising' (not the the uprising in ghetto!) in 1945?
Didn't know? Oh, well, it doesn't matter!
We don't. Neither the fact that entire Polish units fought in various armies and countries. Berlin... oh, nevermind about it.

What does matter? Political correctness. That's the genesis of Russian heroism.
And French as well - my utmost respect!

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 01:18 PM

I also read what you write. Don't you notice their offensive posts are responses for your ones?
No, my posts are responses to the ridiculous nationalistic nonsense that they are spreading.

I know what time is now. You will never understand other nations if you are still stubborn and don't have enough cojones to admit some parts of your history are not a reason to be proud of
Oh please..
What makes you think that population of modern Russia even cares about the issue, I know I don't.
But since you are so bent on historical accuracies, mistreatments and living in the past, well, I am actually half ukranian - would you like to discuss history between "poor and obused" Poland and that nation? How about to appologize for the genoside?
In Russian there is a saying: being able to see a sand grain in someone elses eye while being unable to see a log in your own...

As Russian children learn in the school that Polish officers were killed by Germans, not the Soviets.
How can you possibly know what kids are studying in Russia now, are you enrolled in a Russian school?

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 01:33 PM

[/quote]I tremble before your well-supported refutation. Devastating. You should print this thread and show it to your proud educators.[/quote]

My educators ?:lol:
Dear, you are the one who made rearded statement about "USSR declared war on Japan after the A-bomb"

Ever heard of "Yalta conference"?
When did the war in Europe end?
Ever seen map of Russia?
Ever done any research on what forces did Russia have in the Far East in 1944-45?
Ever thought about logistics and which way/direction was the transportstion system streamlined prior to the German capitulation?
And I am sorry, I am unclear on how did A-bomb affect Kwantung army?

Kitsune

02-21-2005, 01:37 PM

What the f**k did France do to end(?!) the war?
Quite a lot actually. They lost and let themselves conquered. That almost ended the war.

five-five-sixer

02-21-2005, 01:53 PM

So, soviet army was SO exhausted that it had to stop 5km from Warsaw to rest for 2 months watching fighting civilians in the city as an entertainment? What more - they were so exhausted that they didn't allow Allies to use their airports because airports staff was also exhausted and left for holidays in the middle of the world war as well? Hmm, very interesting point of view.

The SU's border did not touch Berlin. Unless you count the Warsaw Pact as being a direct part of the SU - which it was not.

I don't remember when exactly soviet forces were withdrawn from Poland but I can search for exact date if you really want. What I can say just now it was decades after the war. Of course it wasn't any kind of pressure on Poles to cooperate. Of course not. We simply have beautiful nature here they wanted to see but moskitos in Poland are so huge that soviets had to take tanks with them :roll: . Try to study Polish history after the war and see, what was the way decisions were made in here. Honestly - it had nothing to do with being independent.
rofl That's it, man.

Killing Germans doesn't make them heroes although papa Stalin wanted everyone to believe so. Should I remind that soviets main aim was not to beat Germans but to take over as big part of Europe as possible. I think Polish soldier shouldn't be on that monument because Russia is the last country which should build something like that (of course besides Germany). Putting our soldier next to the soviet one would be an insult for those who died protecting Polish eastern border in '39, who were murdered in Katyn and to those who were murdered in their homes when soviet units wanted to have some "fun" while bringing "freedom" to Poland.So much for Stalin's Great Patriotic War. Best post of this thread.
x2

Drako

02-21-2005, 01:53 PM

I am actually half ukranian - would you like to discuss history between "poor and obused" Poland and that nation? How about to appologize for the genoside?

That's the subject for different thread. That conflict had different background than Polish - Russian/Soviet wars.

five-five-sixer

02-21-2005, 02:14 PM

Did any1 mention the deportation of Polish civilians to (by) Russia after the war was over? Or the crimes commited by NKWD on Polish Army (not the "Peoples' Army") after 45?

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-21-2005, 02:31 PM

What the f**k did France do to end(?!) the war?
Quite a lot actually. They lost and let themselves conquered. That almost ended the war.
rofl
Best post of the thread

Stop living in the past, it is 2005 outside, time to move on.
x666

But damn it's funny to see my fellow countrymen behaving like a bunch of kids in a kindergarten. :D

Marmot1

02-21-2005, 02:40 PM

Drako:

We could discuss the Warsaw Uprising. I suppose. For example, we could talk all about how it started at the worst possible time for Soviet forces completely exhausted after ten weeks of hard campaigning. Glantz postulates that it is this primarily, and not any political reasoning, that was behind Soviet inaction during the battle. My own opinion is that there was some politicking involved, but that the state of Soviet forces meant that substantial help was not going to be forthcoming in any case.

1. It started when soviet tanks were reported at outskirs of warsaw.
2.Soviets had bridgehead on left bank of Vistula 40km south of warsaw and second one small little north.
3.Soviet radio encouraged Poles to styand up against Germans, so polish goverment orderewd to start uprising to prevent soviets to claim that they engineered it in case of succes.
4German forces were in retreet and long columns of troops were moving through warsaw to the west most of them from destroyed units with small military power
5.Soviets finaly reached left right bank of river and were 500m in straight line from closest polish positions.
6.Soviet Airforce ceased activity over Warsaw when uprising started allowing germans to have air superiority. Almost for 2 months germans had free hand in Warsaw.
7.SU did not agree to allow Alied planes to land on their own airfields thus forced British,Polish and US planes to take enaught fuel to come back to england and Italy, which in fact limited amout of arms and suplies they were able to bring.
8.When finaly 2 batalions from Polish 1st Army (this one which fought alongside Soviets) made their way to help uprising (Remember they were polish not soviet soldiers) it was too late and commander who send them was relieved of command.
9.Warsaw was important transport hub and had large military value especially in railroad transport.
10. It was easier to soviets to capture bridgehead on left bank while supported by several thousands armed resistance fighters than doing this under well organized german defence At the time when uprising started germans were in poor condition- such poor that Home Army menaged to capture several districts of city during 2 days. and except to some resistance pockets held most of city center and riverbank- only lack of ammo and guns prevented them from future advance, there was large surplus manpower-trained and in many occassions experienced which waited only for guns.
11. Around warsaw there were large partisant units which striked at enemy's rear, blowing railroads,atacking units and convoys,etc.

So do not say that it was worse possible moment becouse it is pure bull****.

walford

02-21-2005, 02:48 PM

[Dear, you are the one who made re[t]arded statement about "USSR declared war on Japan after the A-bomb"
Hiroshima - Aug. 6, 1945
Russia declares war - Aug. 8, 1945
Nagasaki - Aug. 9, 1945.
Soviet troops move into Manchuria, Sakalin islands, Northern Korea.

Ever heard of "Yalta conference"?
The Allies knew that they would have to declare war upon the USSR in order to get them to withdraw from Eastern Europe after Hitler was defeated. Britain and US didn't have the belly for that so Stalin was permitted to subjugate half of Europe.

What part of the Yalta documents say that Soviet Russia would be entitled to seize territory in the Pacific theater?

When did the war in Europe end?
Before the war in the Pacific did.

Ever seen map of Russia?
Apparently Stalin didn't notice that he had an eastern border until after Hiroshima -- except when crippled American planes had to land in Soviet territory.

Soviet troops were forced to deal with Japanese troops in Manchuria, but the USSR had no interest in any Pacific operations that did not promise to gain her more territory. Soviet Russia certainly did not participate in the campaign to remove Japanese forces from the Pacific. [Official neutrality until 8/8/45]

Ever done any research on what forces did Russia have in the Far East in 1944-45?
See above.

Ever thought about logistics and which way/direction was the transportstion system streamlined prior to the German capitulation?
Stalin figured that the Americans could do the brunt of fighting in the Pacific while the European war was ongoing, then would take the opportunity to seize territory once the fighting the both theaters was done.

And I am sorry, I am unclear on how did A-bomb affect Kwantung army? The bomb caused the Japanese Emperor to order the cessation of all military operations, including resisting the aforementioned Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Aug. 1945.If you persisit in such patronizing dialog as 'ever seen a map of Russia' then I have no interest in discussing anything further with you.

mack pl

02-21-2005, 02:59 PM

But damn it's funny to see my fellow countrymen behaving like a bunch of kids in a kindergarten. :D

I hope you feel very adult after this post :hug: woot

p-)

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-21-2005, 03:02 PM

But damn it's funny to see my fellow countrymen behaving like a bunch of kids in a kindergarten. :D

I hope you feel very adult after this post :hug: woot

p-)

Yeah I feel so adult that I need to take my Geriavit :lol:

mack pl

02-21-2005, 03:04 PM

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 03:35 PM

Walford, you are completely delusional and ignorant of historical facts, and that is to put it mildly...

Here are some facts for your education:

Opening the second front against Japan in the Far East was one of the key points of the Yalta conference.

War in Europe ended in late spring.
Today (in 2005) it would take 10 days for you to travel on train from Germany to Far East. Think about logistics involved into moving and prepearing force sufficient for a succesfull attack and how long it would take.
Consider the fact that all of the train stations, warehouses and supply bases, everything was optimized to work westwards...
Think about all of the arrangements and logistics involved, hence the comment "ever seen the map of Russia".

Your statement about Stalin not noticing eastern border just shows how "much" you know about the war.
Stalin was very well aware of his eastern border, that is why he waited for the last possible moment to pull Siberian troops in order to save Moscow - he had to be sure that Japan wouldn't attack.
Japan din't because the memory of Khalkin-Gol was still fresh and it was preoccupied with Pacific.
Stalin didn't want to have a war on two fronts, he was anything but stupid.

Kwantung army was destroyed before the Emperor capitulated.

In you posts you are pointing to the fact that SU waited for the perfect moment to attack Japan, of course it did - it had to be ready and the timing was great.

Would the things be different if US didn't drop the bomb - no, SU would still attack, the deal was struck before US had "A-bomb".

At the same time D-DAY happened for one reason - to prevent SU taking over entire Europe.

walford

02-21-2005, 03:37 PM

Walford, you are completely delusional and ignorant of historical facts, and that is to put it mildly...I stopped reading after that point. Hope you didn't strain yourself.

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 03:39 PM

Stop living in the past, it is 2005 outside, time to move on.
x666

But damn it's funny to see my fellow countrymen behaving like a bunch of kids in a kindergarten. :D

Thank you for the fresh breath of sanity.

Did SU do Poland wrong in 1939, as I said several times before - yes, but Poland is very far from being an innocent white furry bunny herself...

five-five-sixer

02-21-2005, 04:04 PM

Did SU do Poland wrong in 1939, as I said several times before - yes, but Poland is very far from being an innocent white furry bunny herself...
What do you mean by 'white furry bunny'???

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 04:33 PM

.I stopped reading after that point. Hope you didn't strain yourself.

Too bad, you have missed on a great oportunity to learn.

walford

02-21-2005, 04:57 PM

Walford, you are completely delusional and ignorant of historical facts, and that is to put it mildly...I stopped reading after that point. Hope you didn't strain yourself.Too bad, you have missed on a great op[p]ortunity to learn.Yes I shall regret having deprived myself of the benefit of your demonstrable erudition and admirably dispassionate reasoning -- not to mention your consistently well-supported conclusions. And let us not forget your perfect spelling, grammar, syntax, number, agreement, etc. I shall now cry myself to sleep, wistfully pondering your insurmountable superiority in intelligence, education and character.

We of the Internet should stand in awe. Now that firefighter from the moon (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/search.php?search_author=firefighter%20from%20the%20moon) is no longer with us, we have a new maestro of electronic letters. We should petition Hood to award you an honorary doctorate.

Dima-RussianArms

02-21-2005, 05:12 PM

Lame and weak.
Sucks to be you...

walford

02-21-2005, 05:17 PM

Alas.

Musashi

02-21-2005, 06:03 PM

What makes you think that population of modern Russia even cares about the issue, I know I don't.
But since you are so bent on historical accuracies, mistreatments and living in the past, well, I am actually half ukranian - would you like to discuss history between "poor and obused" Poland and that nation? How about to appologize for the genoside?
In Russian there is a saying: being able to see a sand grain in someone elses eye while being unable to see a log in your own...

Dimochka, nu shto ty?
I never claimed Ukrainians' conditions of living were ideal in Poland, but do you want to compare it to the part of Ukraine governed by the S.U. or Russia with gulags, "trips" to Siberia, femine in the 30's (5-7 millions victims), etc.? Do you really think Poles killed more Ukrainians than the Russians did? Many Ukrainians fled to Poland not to die of hunger in 30's. They escaped to so terrible Poles... Impressive. My grandma was a forced labourer in Germany during WWII and worked with a Ukrainian woman. This woman worked very hard in Germany. In spite of that she prefered to stay in Germany after the war, because [according to her] "pigs in Germany live better, than the people in the Soviet Union".
Could you provide me the date of the "genocide", please?

Lokos

02-21-2005, 11:59 PM

Three pages of crap to deal with. Marvelous.

Walford:

OK Now I see that you're having a bit of fun with us. The idea that the USSR did not actually take over half of Europe and install puppet regimes was not imperialism! This 'buffer-state' system you refer to is indeed the same thing. If we decided to make buffer states of Canada and Mexico, it would be considered as much.

Hey, Walford, what, exactly, in your opinion, is the Monroe Doctrine? And how, exactly, in your opinion, is its purpose different from the Soviet Union's post-1945 attempt to assert its superiority over its geostrategic orbit?

Imperialism? How do you expect me to respect anything you have to say when applying such a nonsensical term to this issue? The Soviet Union's government was certainly forming its policies based on the realist political tradition - but it was never 'imperialist'.

Furthermore if the people of one of our unwilling 'allies' decided they no longer wished to be our buffer states and we sent in tanks to quash such nonsense -- as did the Red Army with respect to Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 -- that would likely be seen as an empire preserving a vassal state as well.

What about America's Monroe Doctrine? Or Manifest Destiny? Were the states involved in those political doctrines there voluntarily? It seems to me that the purpose of those doctrines and the Soviet Union's post-WW2 geostrategic maneuvering is of a similar nature and intention - yet the Soviet Union's in the wrong simply because it's the Soviet Union, right?

And let us not discuss the preservation of vassal states, considering how many times Americans have intervened in other states for that exact same purpose.

Of course there are Soviet apologists who have been prepared to split semantic hairs on those historical events also.

Soviet apologist? At this point you can kiss *my* ass. My family suffered a lot more because of the Soviet government than yours did. You have no right to call me a Soviet apologist. My 'hair-splitting' is a simple search for real truths, not pleasant conveniences.

And yet I am the one who is not objective? I am not the one who finds it necessary to resort to the argumentum ad hominem on a regular basis.

I did that once and apologized for it. Keep bringing this up, though, it's sure to get less redundant as time goes by.

I am beginning to suspect that your have a certain agenda here -- and not to participate in any reasonable discussion.

Am I the dogmatic one here? No. You are. Therefore, I postulate that it is you, in fact, who is the troll.

Now you're catching on. For example, it is interesting how the USSR did not declare war on Japan until after the atomic bombs were dropped then promptly swept into Japanese territory and either annexed it or installed one of Lokos' buffer states. [Prior to that time, Soviet Russia was not only unhelpful, she actually captured US warplanes that strayed into Soviet airspace during the war in the Pacific and detained the pilots.]

Didn't the US and Britain only get involved in the continetal war in 1944, when they felt they were totally ready to do so? Why is the Soviet Union's belated invasion of Japanese-held territory any different? Ah, but of course, it's only bad if its done by the Soviet Union, I forgot.

And please note 'Japanese-*held* territory'. The Soviet Union never attacked legally recognized Japanese territories, but the territory of Manchuria, held by a Japanese puppet.

Stalin didn't give a rat's ass whether Hitler was in power. He was poised to benefit either way. The Great Patriotic War was one of opportunity for the Soviet Union and she capitalized to great effect.

And you call me a troll.... The GPW was a great opportunity? Have you ANY idea how long it took to recover from WW2 for the Soviets? Did you know there are recent theories that do more than suggest that the Soviet Union lost the Cold War during WW2? More than 27 million dead and innumerable induestries, infrastructural networks etc. destroyed - the SU only finished the rebuilding process in the 1970's. And by then it was too late for any real economic development. So, you tell me, how was the GPW an 'opportunity' for the Soviets?

If the Western powers would have been defeated and Hitler decided to get to the Persian Gulf oil via North Africa instead of through the USSR, the world would have simply been divided between Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo and Stalin. Likely they would have fought it out with each other over the carcass of Europe and the Western hemisphere. And yes that is speculation on my part.

Yes, of course, because never did Hitler expressly say in 1935 that war was coming with the USSR within ten years, and never did Stalin expressly say in 1938 that war with the German state was forthcoming and that the USSR must be prepared. Your convenient removal of vast ideological and geostrategic interest gulfs between the USSR and Germany from the equation in no way, of course, impacts on your point. :roll:

The idea that Stalin was motivated to defend freedom and self-determination from Axis aggression -- as was the case with the Allies -- is pure comedy.

Did I say that the Soviet Union fought in the name of democracy and freedom of self-determination? No. But are you sure the WA did? For example, I seem to recall America only joining in after being declared war upon by Germany in 1941. Why was there no fight for the freedom and self determination of Poles, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, Czechoslovakians, Yugoslavians, Greeks etc. prior to then?

Why did not the British and French attack Germany following the annexation of Czechoslovakia? After all, it was an insult to the notion of freedom and self-determination?

Can you say 'double standard'?

I tremble before your well-supported refutation. Devastating. You should print this thread and show it to your proud educators.

Your retorts are not exactly awe-inspiring either. They range from dubious to disingenious, actually.

What the f**k did France do to end(?!) the war? They did nothing to help Poland despite the treaties they signed. Then only after they had been attacked by Hitler they gave up.

To understand the French position at the onset of WW2 you must understand the Maginot mentality and the lessons WW1 taught the French. Since you do not, you should refrain from commenting on this issue.

What does matter? Political correctness. That's the genesis of Russian heroism.

Political correctness is the genesis of Russian heroism? :lol:

Drako:

So, soviet army was SO exhausted that it had to stop 5km from Warsaw to rest for 2 months watching fighting civilians in the city as an entertainment? What more - they were so exhausted that they didn't allow Allies to use their airports because airports staff was also exhausted and left for holidays in the middle of the world war as well? Hmm, very interesting point of view.

Would you please read my posts thoroughly before commenting? Of course there were politics involved with STAVKA's decision process. I never suggested otherwise. However, to in turn suggest that the SU avoided helping the Home Army Poles simply and only because they wanted them all dead is not factually quantifiable. Firstly, there is the issue of total overextension and exhaustion after ten weeks of campaigning. You do not seem to be grasping the kind of attrition I am talking about. Secondly, there is the issue of the institutialization of manpower conservation in the RKKA. City fighting was considered too costly, and to be avoided if possible. Therefore, we can say that it was in fact three factors that prevented Soviet assistance in 1944: 1) Overextended and attrited formations being the only ones available for commitment 2) A general order to avoid city fighting if possible due to manpower conservation policy and 3) Real-politick (which I never denied).

I don't remember when exactly soviet forces were withdrawn from Poland but I can search for exact date if you really want. What I can say just now it was decades after the war. Of course it wasn't any kind of pressure on Poles to cooperate. Of course not. We simply have beautiful nature here they wanted to see but moskitos in Poland are so huge that soviets had to take tanks with them Rolling Eyes . Try to study Polish history after the war and see, what was the way decisions were made in here. Honestly - it had nothing to do with being independent.

I wasn't aware that Poland or East Germany were part of the SU. Wait, they weren't. Therefore, your border point does not stand.

So can you tell me why russian radio was calling "Poles take your guns and fight, we will help you"?

Can you tell me why Russians were arresting polish patriots in 1944 and killing them?

Ahh, the infamous rally cry. Let us deal with this in turn.

1) That was NOT an officially 'sanctioned' broadcast. The Soviets were very careful in not making concrete promises. Prudent or sneaky of them? You decide. The General Staff of the RKKA and STAVKA had nevertheless established the battle plan for Poland and East Prussia long before this, and it did not involve the storming of Warsaw - at that point. Nevertheless, a Polish formation did attempt to give assistance to the Home Army - at which point it was mauled by German forces and had to beat a hasty retreat.

2) For the same reason that the Brits were killing Greek communists in 1946. Real-politick. Both sides played that game, and to think otherwise is to adopt the stance of a fool.

Luftwaffe was bombing all the time without ANY Soviet counteraction. There were even Ju-87s (max speed 375-390 km/h) which were retired from other fronts, because they were too easy prey for fighters in 1944.

Easy. Because the Soviets had outrun their aerial support, as was often the case in 1944-1945. Although, there are certainly issues here that I'll discuss in my response to another poster below.

It started when soviet tanks were reported at outskirs of warsaw.

Which they weren't.

Soviet radio encouraged Poles to styand up against Germans, so polish goverment orderewd to start uprising to prevent soviets to claim that they engineered it in case of succes.

Soviet radio *generally* supported an uprising. The broadcast specifically referred to, earlier in this thread, was not authorized to promise support, which was never planned due to the state of Russian forces following Bagration and certain political motives.

You know, though, the Soviets actually DID render assistance to the Home Army in a number of other Polish cities - after which the HA was promptly disarmed and arrested.

Soviet Airforce ceased activity over Warsaw when uprising started allowing germans to have air superiority. Almost for 2 months germans had free hand in Warsaw.

What VVS activity? During Operation Bagration, RKKA forces outran aerial support - resulting in *German* aerial superiority in many instances. There were *very* few aerial assets supporting RKKA formations near Warsaw and on the Vistula - at least early on.

Later on (a number of weeks after the uprising's start), however, I agree, Soviet aerial support at least should have been forthcoming - and it wasn't. *shrug* It's not as if I ever denied that politics was a major influence on the Soviet decision making process. Simply not the *only* one.

SU did not agree to allow Alied planes to land on their own airfields thus forced British,Polish and US planes to take enaught fuel to come back to england and Italy, which in fact limited amout of arms and suplies they were able to bring.

This is consistent with Soviet policy regarding allied air landings in other parts of the Soviet Union. But, yes, in this case it was immoral and unjustified, I agree.

It was easier to soviets to capture bridgehead on left bank while supported by several thousands armed resistance fighters than doing this under well organized german defence At the time when uprising started germans were in poor condition- such poor that Home Army menaged to capture several districts of city during 2 days. and except to some resistance pockets held most of city center and riverbank- only lack of ammo and guns prevented them from future advance, there was large surplus manpower-trained and in many occassions experienced which waited only for guns.

This, and your followup 'bull****' statement completely ignore the state of SOVIET forces at the onset of the Uprising. Perhaps, later on, during the dying days of the Uprising, the Soviets could have intervened with some success. Yet, at that point, the Uprising was already doomed, the resistance controlled few areas of significance, and the Soviets would have been in for a major bloodletting due to major German troop concentrations in the city.

Instead, the Soviets opted to force the Germans out of Warsaw through success elsewhere. Which, strategically speaking, was the right thing to do. Morally, though, it's not as if I disagree that the lack of support for the Warsaw Uprising was abhorrent.

Hiroshima - Aug. 6, 1945
Russia declares war - Aug. 8, 1945
Nagasaki - Aug. 9, 1945.
Soviet troops move into Manchuria, Sakalin islands, Northern Korea.

Walford, I've already dealt with your FE Front rubbish.

You missed something very important from Dima, though:

Today (in 2005) it would take 10 days for you to travel on train from Germany to Far East. Think about logistics involved into moving and prepearing force sufficient for a succesfull attack and how long it would take.

It was not POSSIBLE, physically speaking, to start the war in the Far East before August 1945 for the Soviets. Japanese planners thought that it would most likely come (the attack) in 1946. Only ONE Japanese General thought that the Soviets might possibly attack as early as *September*, and the others thought he was a fool.

Yes I shall regret having deprived myself of the benefit of your demonstrable erudition and admirably dispassionate reasoning -- not to mention your consistently well-supported conclusions. And let us not forget your perfect spelling, grammar, syntax, number, agreement, etc. I shall now cry myself to sleep, wistfully pondering your insurmountable superiority in intelligence, education and character.

While I do appreciate the eloquence of your crap, please note that it is just that.

Musashi:

Wouldn't it be more right to say 'than the Georgians did'? After all, was Stalin Russian? No. I like how people here equate 'Russian' with 'Soviet'. This may have been true from the late 50's onwards. But to ignore the fact that the Russians were the biggest victims of the Communist regime is downright silly.

Lokos

walford

02-22-2005, 12:31 AM

[4] Yes I shall regret having deprived myself of the benefit of your demonstrable erudition and admirably dispassionate reasoning -- not to mention your consistently well-supported conclusions. And let us not forget your perfect spelling, grammar, syntax, number, agreement, etc. I shall now cry myself to sleep, wistfully pondering your insurmountable superiority in intelligence, education and character.While I do appreciate the eloquence of your crap, please note that it is just that.But you have no criticism for what led up to that. It speaks volumes toward your objectivity.
[1] Walford, you are completely delusional and ignorant of historical facts, and that is to put it mildly...[2] I stopped reading after that point. Hope you didn't strain yourself.[3] Too bad, you have missed on a great op[p]ortunity to learn.
Anyway...
Hey, Walford, what, exactly, in your opinion, is the Monroe Doctrine? And how, exactly, in your opinion, is its purpose different from the Soviet Union's post-1945 attempt to assert its superiority over its geostrategic orbit?If you see a moral equivalency between the two, obviously there is no common point of reference. I honestly do thank you however, for providing an explication of a perspective that apparently has traction for a significant cadre.

Marmot1

02-22-2005, 04:22 AM

Since dime mentioned players from diferent leagues some time ago... here you have league ranking...

From WTO webpage... Import capacity,data from 2003:

Importers

USA 1 303 mld USD
Germany 601 mld USD
China 413 mld USD
United Kingdom 390 mld USD
.
.
Netherlands 262 mld USD
.
.
.
Russian Federation 74 mld USD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.
.
Poland 68 mld USD !!!!!!

As you see we are in the same league... and trading with russia or with Poland gives almost the same effects... only diference is that trading with Poladn gives you acces to EU market and is more safe...

Marmot1

02-22-2005, 05:24 AM

Imperialism? How do you expect me to respect anything you have to say when applying such a nonsensical term to this issue? The Soviet Union's government was certainly forming its policies based on the realist political tradition - but it was never 'imperialist'.[quote]

Soviet tradition based on IMPERIAL Russia tradition and conquering neighbours and making pupets all around by force, then protecting it in the same way, not by diplomatic means is nothimg more than IMPERIALISM. SU used directly own troops to supress any activity that was against it's policy.

[quote]And let us not discuss the preservation of vassal states, considering how many times Americans have intervened in other states for that exact same purpose.

Yes they did but in 90% of cases to prevent expansion of SU sphere of influence... so we can call it rather firefighter while SU can be caled arson.

Soviet apologist? At this point you can kiss *my* ass. My family suffered a lot more because of the Soviet government than yours did. You have no right to call me a Soviet apologist. My 'hair-splitting' is a simple search for real truths, not pleasant conveniences.

As long as you can't answer using polite sentences discussion with you is pointless.....

And please note 'Japanese-*held* territory'. The Soviet Union never attacked legally recognized Japanese territories, but the territory of Manchuria, held by a Japanese puppet.

How about southern Sakhalin and Kuril Islands??? weren't they legally recognized Japanese teritory??? Do some research before posting.

And you call me a troll.... The GPW was a great opportunity? Have you ANY idea how long it took to recover from WW2 for the Soviets? Did you know there are recent theories that do more than suggest that the Soviet Union lost the Cold War during WW2? More than 27 million dead and innumerable induestries, infrastructural networks etc. destroyed - the SU only finished the rebuilding process in the 1970's. And by then it was too late for any real economic development. So, you tell me, how was the GPW an 'opportunity' for the Soviets?

1 Control over POLAND, LITHUANIA, LATVA, LESTONIA, CZECH.SLOVAKIA,ROMANIA,EAST GERMANY,BULGARIA,WESTERN UKRAINE AND BELARUSSIA,NORTHERN KOREA (LATER LOST TO CHIINA)
GAINS ON FINLAND - well quite impersive gain....

(And this is WW2 not GPW... you are so soaked by soviet crap that you even use their abbrevation in reference to event that comonly are named in diferent way...)

Would you please read my posts thoroughly before commenting? Of course there were politics involved with STAVKA's decision process. I never suggested otherwise. However, to in turn suggest that the SU avoided helping the Home Army Poles simply and only because they wanted them all dead is not factually quantifiable. Firstly, there is the issue of total overextension and exhaustion after ten weeks of campaigning. You do not seem to be grasping the kind of attrition I am talking about. Secondly, there is the issue of the institutialization of manpower conservation in the RKKA. City fighting was considered too costly, and to be avoided if possible. Therefore, we can say that it was in fact three factors that prevented Soviet assistance in 1944: 1) Overextended and attrited formations being the only ones available for commitment 2) A general order to avoid city fighting if possible due to manpower conservation policy and 3) Real-politick (which I never denied).

1.There was little help needed and rather in arms and heavy equipment not in manpower not to mention that in august 1944 warsaw except outskirs was almoest freed from germans.
2.As mentioned above center of warsaw with dense urban areas was free of germans and german forces were wery week so there was not much fighting left, major german forces assaulted warsaw in september 1944 and even then they were 2nd grade units, and reason why polish resistance colapsed were- lack of food,ammo and AT equipment, There were still soldiers willing to fight and enaught manpower.
3.Real-politic - that should be No1 on your list and only point on it.

I wasn't aware that Poland or East Germany were part of the SU. Wait, they weren't. Therefore, your border point does not stand.

If you have govermewnt which goes to moscow for "Instructions" all the time and 500 000 soviet troops in country does it sound like occupation? For me yes. and even if we were not annexed like lithuania situation was much more simmilar. We were basically free to move within SU and other "People's democracies" almost like in country.

Ahh, the infamous rally cry. Let us deal with this in turn.

1) That was NOT an officially 'sanctioned' broadcast. The Soviets were very careful in not making concrete promises. Prudent or sneaky of them? You decide. The General Staff of the RKKA and STAVKA had nevertheless established the battle plan for Poland and East Prussia long before this, and it did not involve the storming of Warsaw - at that point. Nevertheless, a Polish formation did attempt to give assistance to the Home Army - at which point it was mauled by German forces and had to beat a hasty retreat.

Of course it was not "official" broadcast... but tell me who did this??? germans??? No it was aired by Soviet radio and as you know in Soviet army nothing happened without order. As to polish units which helped warsaw... it was to late and they were only infantry. They did it basicaly on their own but at that time germans held riverbank, neverthles some of them fought in uprising.

2) For the same reason that the Brits were killing Greek communists in 1946. Real-politick. Both sides played that game, and to think otherwise is to adopt the stance of a fool.

UK fought greek commies becouse SU tried to expand their sphere of influence so as I mentioned above they tried to hold expansion not to expand, Greece was not a comunist state any time prior to ww2 and it was Stalin atempt to increase his "empire"

It started when soviet tanks were reported at outskirs of warsaw.

Which they weren't.

They were in Wolka Weglowa which is small village on the outskirs of Praga district of Warsaw (right bank of river)

Soviet radio *generally* supported an uprising. The broadcast specifically referred to, earlier in this thread, was not authorized to promise support, which was never planned due to the state of Russian forces following Bagration and certain political motives.

After it started soviet radio was generaly against uprising and called it "Warsaw disturbance", yes they did not promise support becouse this would complicate Stalin's plan to take over warsaw. At the time there were emisaries of polish goverment in Warsaw and many generals who were parachuted into poland from englad, so there were both political and military authorities in poland.

You know, though, the Soviets actually DID render assistance to the Home Army in a number of other Polish cities - after which the HA was promptly disarmed and arrested.

yes in Vilnus they rendered so called asistance.... 10000 partisans emerged form forest and together with soviet army assaulted and captured city, then they were disarmed, arested and send to gulags...

Same happened in Minsk mazowiecki but in this case polish Home Army liberated city few days before any soviet unit was close to city, when RA entered city there was polish mayor etc. and city was secured.... then they disarmed and arested everybody and send them to concentration camp to treblinka (yes to nazi camp) and later to gulags.... I know a guy who escaped from such a transport, none of his friends ever returned...

What VVS activity? During Operation Bagration, RKKA forces outran aerial support - resulting in *German* aerial superiority in many instances. There were *very* few aerial assets supporting RKKA formations near Warsaw and on the Vistula - at least early on.

Soviet fighter and bombers were seen on daily basis over warsaw then suddenly they disapeared when uprising started... so there were assets avalible, and soviets had at this time airfields in Minsk Mazowiecki, Ulez, Podlodow, Deblin,Krzesk and many others all of them 40 to 130km form warsaw...

Later on (a number of weeks after the uprising's start), however, I agree, Soviet aerial support at least should have been forthcoming - and it wasn't. *shrug* It's not as if I ever denied that politics was a major influence on the Soviet decision making process. Simply not the *only* one.

Others were only "excuses" made by revisionist Soviet "historian" to justify Stalin's actions...

This is consistent with Soviet policy regarding allied air landings in other parts of the Soviet Union. But, yes, in this case it was immoral and unjustified, I agree.

Well so this policy was inconsistent... since there was whole RAF Spitfire squadron operationg near Murmansk... for quite a long.

This, and your followup 'bull****' statement completely ignore the state of SOVIET forces at the onset of the Uprising. Perhaps, later on, during the dying days of the Uprising, the Soviets could have intervened with some success. Yet, at that point, the Uprising was already doomed, the resistance controlled few areas of significance, and the Soviets would have been in for a major bloodletting due to major German troop concentrations in the city.

German concentration consisted of Police and foreign SS units, plus 2nd grade combat units in all ca. 17000 men.... so all soviet nedded is 1 maybe 2 divisions to deal with it. There were polish regular units (1st Polish Army) who were more than eager to go assault Warsaw.

Instead, the Soviets opted to force the Germans out of Warsaw through success elsewhere. Which, strategically speaking, was the right thing to do. Morally, though, it's not as if I disagree that the lack of support for the Warsaw Uprising was abhorrent.

yes I know trhat pincer tactic was favorit Soviet tactic during WW2 but with little,very little help uprising could be succesfull and many lives could be spared... Like in case of Paris where alies changed tactic when uprising started... they captured city virtually without fight, saved city lot of lives, archived great moral victory, anh gained mayor strategic target.

[quote]

machupichu

02-22-2005, 09:31 AM

the poles urgently need anything to be proud of. if noone else calls them "great" they must keep calling it themselfs. that behavior is often seen with losers who become radicals. they radicalize their attitude to compensate their lack of ability in real life. its very entertaining watching this happen to poland! :lol:

Lokos

02-22-2005, 10:05 AM

Soviet tradition based on IMPERIAL Russia tradition and conquering neighbours and making pupets all around by force, then protecting it in the same way, not by diplomatic means is nothimg more than IMPERIALISM. SU used directly own troops to supress any activity that was against it's policy.

You, like Walford, are confusing 'IMPERIAL' with 'realist'. The Soviet Union wasn't an Empire when Reagan referred to it as such, and it wasn't an Empire in WW2/GPW (I use both, for your information, because I specialize in Studies of the Soviet Union in the Second World War - so I do tend to use their designations for a number of things).

Regarding your point of troop usage against activities which could bring harm to the SU...

Hmm, that kind of sounds exactly like what the US has been doing ever since WW2. But, of course, since it's the US, it's fine.

Yes they did but in 90% of cases to prevent expansion of SU sphere of influence... so we can call it rather firefighter while SU can be caled arson.

LOL. Yeah, that must be it. I suppose you haven't read the Keenan Papers? Look it up. It's going to open your eyes.

As long as you can't answer using polite sentences discussion with you is pointless.....

Notice how 'my' is emphasised. It is a direct response and a reference to an earlier post by Walford where he told me to kiss his ass. So cast not stones, oh ye of little faith, before knowing your aim is true.

How about southern Sakhalin and Kuril Islands??? weren't they legally recognized Japanese teritory??? Do some research before posting.

Yeah, because there were significant combat operations in Sakhalin and the Kurils. Oh, wait... See, I said the Soviet Union *invaded* only territories not even legally seen as Japanese. I didn't say anything about the punitive measures undertaken in the peace accord that dealt with territorial losses for the Empire.

1 Control over POLAND, LITHUANIA, LATVA, LESTONIA, CZECH.SLOVAKIA,ROMANIA,EAST GERMANY,BULGARIA,WESTERN UKRAINE AND BELARUSSIA,NORTHERN KOREA (LATER LOST TO CHIINA)
GAINS ON FINLAND - well quite impersive gain....

Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Western Ukraine, Belarussia? You realize these were part of the SU, don't you? Furthermore, the Ukraine and Belarussia had no history as actual nations before 1991. Where do you get off naming them as nations subjugated by the SU?

North Korea's relationship with the SU was similar to that of Vietnam's - which makes it irrelevant to what you are trying to say.

As for Czechoslovakia, Romania, East Germany, Bulgaria and Poland - were they directly incorporated into the SU? No. They were made buffer states, which in Soviet eyes meant that they were there to stop any potential Western attack against the SU in the future. Of course they took 'directions' from the Soviet government. But these directions were mainly in terms of foreign and military policy - not domestic issues.

You know what that reminds me of? The relationship the Americans had with their German, French and British allies throughout the Cold War.

(And this is WW2 not GPW... you are so soaked by soviet crap that you even use their abbrevation in reference to event that comonly are named in diferent way...)

Soaked in Soviet crap? My dear fellow, I use all available sources on WW2, but I specialize in the Soviet perspective. I do not understand what you find wrong about the designation 'Great Patriotic War'. Do you also have something against the 'Patriotic War' it is named after (Napoleon's invasion of Russia)?

1.There was little help needed and rather in arms and heavy equipment not in manpower not to mention that in august 1944 warsaw except outskirs was almoest freed from germans.

Yes, it was an excellent idea to start the uprising and clear Germans out of many parts of the city while the nearest Soviet forces were completely attrited (force levels at approximately 30% of normal), were lacking fuel, ammo and heavy equipment such as tanks.

So let's say the Soviets sent these utterly depleted formations into the city. Gee, I wonder how long they would have held it in the face of the inevitable German counterattack. A day? Two? How many Soviet lives would have been lost? And for what? So you could say today that the only help you got from the Soviets in WW2 was a minor action in Warsaw?

Pfft.

here were still soldiers willing to fight and enaught manpower.

Heh. You do know the attrition rate these motivated folks suffered whilst under attack by '2nd grade German units'? And do you think that the influx of formations would have remained 2nd grade if the weak Soviet forces had intervened?

3.Real-politic - that should be No1 on your list and only point on it.

No, that should be the one and only point on the lists of people who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

If you have govermewnt which goes to moscow for "Instructions" all the time and 500 000 soviet troops in country does it sound like occupation?

How many American/British soldiers were in West Germany? Who do you think was directing NATO's Cold War efforts? It seems to me, again, that it's only bad if the Soviets do it.

We were basically free to move within SU and other "People's democracies" almost like in country.

Yeah, freedom of movement within the Warsaw Pact was a terrible, terrible crime. My condolences.

No it was aired by Soviet radio and as you know in Soviet army nothing happened without order.

And you've spent how long in finding out all there is to know about the RKKA? My Polish friend, I know the stereotypes full well - and they are as endearing and humorous today as they were the day they first appeared. But the RKKA of 1944 was less under Stalin's thumb than the Wehrmacht of 1944 was under Hitler's. PLENTY of things happened in the Soviet Army without authorization.

The lesson of Mekhlis was a profound one for STAVKA. But you already knew that, right?

As to polish units which helped warsaw... it was to late and they were only infantry. They did it basicaly on their own but at that time germans held riverbank, neverthles some of them fought in uprising.

And how many remaining tanks do you think Soviet forces had to commit to any action in Warsaw, after ten weeks of constant combat? Let me give you a little statistic: a little over 12% of authorized armored strength. And for a ten week period, that's actually not that bad. But, of course, in your imagination the Soviets were just sitting there, at full strength, with all the armor and fuel they'd ever need, smoking cigarettes and laughing while the Poles died.

Pfft.

UK fought greek commies becouse SU tried to expand their sphere of influence so as I mentioned above they tried to hold expansion not to expand, Greece was not a comunist state any time prior to ww2 and it was Stalin atempt to increase his "empire"

Oh, holy God. You don't know much about the Greek Civil War, do you? I'm just going to move on, this isn't worth my time.

They were in Wolka Weglowa which is small village on the outskirs of Praga district of Warsaw (right bank of river)

And how many were there, do you reckon?

yes in Vilnus they rendered so called asistance.... 10000 partisans emerged form forest and together with soviet army assaulted and captured city, then they were disarmed, arested and send to gulags...

Same happened in Minsk mazowiecki but in this case polish Home Army liberated city few days before any soviet unit was close to city, when RA entered city there was polish mayor etc. and city was secured.... then they disarmed and arested everybody and send them to concentration camp to treblinka (yes to nazi camp) and later to gulags.... I know a guy who escaped from such a transport, none of his friends ever returned...

Yes, thank you for expanding on my point, and making political statements while you were at it. I appreciate it, I do.

Soviet fighter and bombers were seen on daily basis over warsaw then suddenly they disapeared when uprising started... so there were assets avalible, and soviets had at this time airfields in Minsk Mazowiecki, Ulez, Podlodow, Deblin,Krzesk and many others all of them 40 to 130km form warsaw...

LOL. :lol: Please, a source for these 'daily' Soviet fighter and bomber sightings.

Also please note: While I doubt the validity of air sightings from the get-go, I don't doubt that the Soviets withheld air support later during the Uprising.

Others were only "excuses" made by revisionist Soviet "historian" to justify Stalin's actions...

Yeah, revisionist Soviet historians like Glantz, House and Erickson. :roll:

Well so this policy was inconsistent... since there was whole RAF Spitfire squadron operationg near Murmansk... for quite a long.

I did not take into account Lend Lease anti-interdiction joint operations on Soviet territory. Please, excuse my lapse.

German concentration consisted of Police and foreign SS units, plus 2nd grade combat units in all ca. 17000 men.... so all soviet nedded is 1 maybe 2 divisions to deal with it. There were polish regular units (1st Polish Army) who were more than eager to go assault Warsaw.

'1 maybe 2' Soviet divisions would have meant a grand total of... wait for it... 2,000-4,000 men. And these were generally considered 'not exactly' first grade, as a whole, after booty troop reinforcements and raw graduates from basic training.

As a rule of thumb, a German division usually had as many men as a Soviet Rifle Corps (2-4 divisions).

yes I know trhat pincer tactic was favorit Soviet tactic during WW2 but with little,very little help uprising could be succesfull and many lives could be spared... Like in case of Paris where alies changed tactic when uprising started... they captured city virtually without fight, saved city lot of lives, archived great moral victory, anh gained mayor strategic target.

Aside from the fact that you don't have your Paris facts quite right, I've got to say that serious assistance during the uprising would have cost many more Soviet lives and, at the end of the day, saving Soviet lives was more important to the Soviets than was saving Polish lives. Sad, but quite true. And not exactly only a phenomenon for the Soviets.

Lokos

Lokos

02-22-2005, 10:09 AM

If you see a moral equivalency between the two, obviously there is no common point of reference. I honestly do thank you however, for providing an explication of a perspective that apparently has traction for a significant cadre.

LOL. That's the first time I've seen US policy from the Monroe era described as morally superior to a similarly realist policy of buffer states devised by the SU. In fact, it makes me a little giddy to see the word 'morally' used in conjunction with a matter of government policy. rofl

But you have no criticism for what led up to that. It speaks volumes toward your objectivity.

Clearly, I favor his arguments over yours. What does my objectivity have to do with that?

No, it speaks volumes towards my dislike of you using your obvious penchant for written English as a way to degrade an opponent in a debate. For someone who complains so bitterly about ad hominem attacks, you quite frequently lay on the insinuations regarding a person's character and worth. A hypocrite, through and through.

Lokos

walford

02-22-2005, 11:39 AM

Ratman

02-22-2005, 12:19 PM

Well I didn't open this thread for a long time, but it kept bouncing back, so I finally had to take a look. After making it through several pages including the first and the last two, all I've got to say is:

HOLY SMOKES!

Zielony

02-22-2005, 12:41 PM

HOLY SMOKES!

;)

Brzeczyszczykiewicz

02-22-2005, 02:07 PM

I say that 99% of people on these boards are too lazy to read most of the huge posts in this thread (that includes me as well) ;)

walford

02-22-2005, 02:12 PM

I say that 99% of people on these boards are too lazy to read most of the huge posts in this thread (that includes me as well)Not lazy. Sensible about how to spend one's time. If there is something to be gained -- knowledge, insight etc. then it is worthwhile.

And there may be a modicum of that. But it's difficult to enjoy a cherry if you have to swallow mouthful after mouthful of dog**** to get to it.

Lokos

02-22-2005, 08:08 PM

Walford:

Get off your destrier. Your routine is boring.

Just because it doesn't agree with your carefully constructed and nurtured opinions doesn't make it dog****.

You're careful about how you spend your time? Stop posting bull****, and a lot of the aforementioned time will be saved in the long run.

Lokos

walford

02-22-2005, 08:15 PM

Lokos

02-22-2005, 08:43 PM

See? ^ Bull****.

walford

02-22-2005, 08:52 PM

http://img178.exs.cx/img178/3156/youlikeme12ms.jpg

Lokos

02-23-2005, 01:14 AM

Aww, man, another golden moment in the history of sarcastic commentary! How do you find the time to come up with all this bullion?

Lokos