Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

[BlackRain]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right. Could history repeat itself?

Quick quiz. He was re-elected as president of the United States despite being largely disliked in the world -- particularly in Europe. The Europeans considered him to be a war-mongerer and liked to accuse him of allowing his deep religious beliefs to become the motor behind his foreign policy. Easy right?

Actually, the answer isn't as obvious as it might seem. President Ronald Reagan's visit to Berlin in 1987 was, in many respects, very similar to President George W. Bush's visit to Mainz on Wednesday. Like Bush's visit, Reagan's trip was likewise accompanied by unprecedented security precautions. A handpicked crowd cheered Reagan in front of the Brandenburg Gate while large parts of the Berlin subway system were shut down. And the Germany Reagan was traveling in, much like today's Germany, was very skeptical of the American president and his foreign policy.

When Reagan stood before the Brandenburg Gate -- and the Berlin Wall -- and demanded that Gorbachev "tear down this Wall," he was lampooned the next day on the editorial pages. He is a dreamer, wrote commentators. Realpolitik looks different.

But history has shown that it wasn't Reagan who was the dreamer as he voiced his demand. Rather, it was German politicians who were lacking in imagination -- a group who in 1987 couldn't imagine that there might be an alternative to a divided Germany. Those who spoke of reunification were labelled as nationalists and the entire German left was completely uninterested in a unified Germany.

When George W. Bush requests that Chancellor Schroeder -- who, by the way, was also not entirely complimentary of Reagan's 1987 speech -- and Germany become more engaged in the Middle East, everybody on the German side will nod affably. But despite all of the sugar coating the trans-Atlantic relationship has received in recent days, Germany's foreign policy depends on differentiating itself from the United States. And when Bush leaves Europe, the differences will remain.

Indeed, Bush's idea of a Middle Eastern democracy imported at the tip of a bayonet is, for Schroeder's Social Democratic Party and his coalition partner the Green Party, the hysterical offspring off the American neo-cons. Even German conservatives find the idea that Arabic countries could transform themselves into enlightened democracies somewhat absurd.

This, in fact, is likely the largest point of disagreement between Europe and the United States -- and one that a President John Kerry likely would not have made smaller: Europeans today -- just like the Europeans of 1987 -- cannot imagine that the world might change. Maybe we don't want the world to change, because change can, of course, be dangerous. But in a country of immigrants like the United States, one actually pushes for change. In Mainz today, the stagnant Europeans came face to face with the dynamic Americans. We Europeans always want to have the world from yesterday, whereas the Americans strive for the world of tomorrow.

During the Cold War, these differences were covered up by clearly shared security and political interests; now, the gaps are becoming visible. The two continents will continue to drift apart despite all of the smiles exchanged today in Mainz, yesterday in Brussels and tomorrow in Bratislava.

It was difficult not to cringe during Reagan's speech in 1987. He didn't leave a single Berlin cliché out of his script. At the end of it, most experts agreed that his demand for the removal of the Wall was inopportune, utopian and crazy.

Yet three years later, East Germany had disappeared from the map. Gorbachev had a lot to do with it, but it was the East Germans who played the larger role. When analysts are confronted by real people, amazing things can happen. And maybe history can repeat itself. Maybe the people of Syria, Iran or Jordan will get the idea in their heads to free themselves from their oppressive regimes just as the East Germans did. When the voter turnout in Iraq recently exceeded that of many Western nations, the chorus of critique from Iraq alarmists was, at least for a couple of days, quieted. Just as quiet as the chorus of Germany experts on the night of Nov. 9, 1989 when the Wall fell.

Just a thought for Old Europe to chew on: Bush might be right, just like Reagan was then.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,343378,00.html

[JTAR7242]

Interesting parallel, to say the least.


Regardless, it is a message that will only be recieved by those who share American ideals, and scoffed at by those who don't.

[IamWhatIam]

Thats the funny thing about freedom, once the concept has been introduced, it seems to grow like Kudzu. And maybe, just maybe, the middle east will start to see that through Iraq.

Stranger things have happened, the Berlin wall fell and the Soviet Union broke up, whats next?

[budgie]

So eastern Europe sorted its problems out and Reagan took credit. Despite the mess in Iraq if the Middle East sorts itself out Bush will take credit.

He's already taken credit for everything from the Iraqi Olympic soccer team to bringing Libya to the negotiating table. I'm surprised he hasn't patted himself on the back for Palestinian elections.

The right will continue to spin its own version of history and create saints out of sleazebags.

[Top Gun]

Don't make the mistake of beliving democracy is the be all end all. Its the best form of government today, but it is by no means utopia. Before you worship Regan, don't forget about Chile, Nicaragua and the other ridiculous things his government did. Thank God the technology didnt exist for "star wars."

EDIT: I ment El Salvador, flame away at my incompetence :oops:

[Seiyuuki]

Thank God the technology didnt exist for "star wars."

It does today.

[IamWhatIam]

Regardless, it is a message that will only be recieved by those who share American ideals, and scoffed at by those who don't.

Funny how quick we found that out!

But seriously, somebody has to have the vision to actually change the staus quo when it's failing, or worse. So who does that? Do you think change on the scale listed in the article above happened on it's own, overnight? No, I know you don't, people have to be behind it and support it for it to work. But somebody has to inspired the people, to actually say in public, what they were thinking. Then when people hear it, the are inspired.

Reagan didn't tear down that wall, the East Germans did, but do you think it would have happened as quickly as it did without somebody actually calling for it to come down?

As for the rest of the comment, yes, the US has made diplomatic and geopolitical mistakes, mainly trusting too much. But like we say in the US, if you don't screw up every once and a while, you're not really working very hard.

[budgie]

I agree. I still think the US is the best candidate for 'world policeman' and 'leader of the free world' as well. It's just my opinion that Bush and the neocons are screwing it up...

[melon]

So eastern Europe sorted its problems out and Reagan took credit. Despite the mess in Iraq if the Middle East sorts itself out Bush will take credit.

He's already taken credit for everything from the Iraqi Olympic soccer team to bringing Libya to the negotiating table. I'm surprised he hasn't patted himself on the back for Palestinian elections.

The right will continue to spin its own version of history and create saints out of sleazebags.


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Keep "misunderestimating" the man. The socialist left has no answer for Bush and the American right. They just stand on the sidelines, complaining, while the world is changing around them. Haha, enjoy the view. The most powerful force in modern times will dictate how the world is shaped for the next 100 years. The left is upset becuase Bush has made them irrelevant in the decision process. It eats at them, to be pushed to the sideline, to have their grandious socialist ideals laughed at in the halls of power. Haha, again, enjoy the show from the sidelines.

[pistol]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right.


Comparing Reagan's call for the Berlin wall to be torn down to George Bush's plan to invade the middle east is laughable.

[budgie]

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Keep "misunderestimating" the man. The socialist left has no answer for Bush and the American right. They just stand on the sidelines, complaining, while the world is changing around them. Haha, enjoy the view. The most powerful force in modern times will dictate how the world is shaped for the next 100 years. The left is upset becuase Bush has made them irrelevant in the decision process. It eats at them, to be pushed to the sideline, to have their grandious socialist ideals laughed at in the halls of power. Haha, again, enjoy the show from the sidelines.

And I see this kind of gloating in every smirk from Bush and hear it in every smug speech. Sadly the left has been rather marginalised in the US but don't expect it to catch on in the rest of the world.

[melon]

And I see this kind of gloating in every smirk from Bush and hear it in every smug speech. Sadly the left has been rather marginalised in the US but don't expect it to catch on in the rest of the world.


Sure, you and your ilk will gladly join the ash heap of societies. Did you all learn nothing from Eastern Europe? The Soviet Union? The glorious free society that is modern China? Perhaps Cuba is your shining acheivment. Soldier on, proud socialist. Watch as those who are smarter than you run the world. Socialism will never work. Just a form of punishment for those who are successful, doled out by those who cant succeed under capitalism. So until you remove America from the scene, your quest will fail.

[Malarky]

Change will happen. For the better or for the worse, who knows? But, Bush may do well to take credit for this change, for I see no one else taking a place on the world's stage to affect an impact in these days. Sure he may fall flat on his face and prove to be the fool if everything takes a turn for the worst. And sure there are PLENTY of mistakes he and the conservsative right has made in setting US foreign policy. But who else is trying to do SOMETHING to make this world a better place. At least he has the courage to stand up for what he believes in and not sit around complaining about the way things are going.


"Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world which yields most painfully to change. "
Robert F. Kennedy, 1966 speech
US Democratic politician (1925 - 1968)

[machupichu]

this article is bad and has several errors. the german government always worked on reunification right from the beginning. united germany was declared aim of not only chancellor kohl but all german chancellors. what did surprise them was how quickly it happened after all.
calling reagans rakish call on gorbačov as beeing (even bit) responsible for that is ridiculous! its like giving "ich bin ein berliner" credit as well.
in late 80s anglophilia was near its peak. now talking about reagan beeing hated by majority of germans is just untrue. that articles authors intention becomes very obvious. he tries to construct that link to 89, but there is no such link. how can any serious person compare east germany, whose people where encaged by "socialism", but more than willing to change systems, to those culturally strong countries like syria or iran! ridiculous!

[Jobu]

Don't make the mistake of beliving democracy is the be all end all. Its the best form of government today, but it is by no means utopia. Before you worship Regan, don't forget about Chile, Nicaragua and the other ridiculous things his government did. Thank God the technology didnt exist for "star wars."

Reagan stopped the communists from taking over Central America and I applaud him for it. The Soviets poured billions into that failed venture and it helped end their empire more quickly.

What did Reagan do in Chile? I think you are a few years off there buddy.

Way to lose all credibility.

[Freibier]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right.


Comparing Reagan's call for the Berlin wall to be torn down to George Bush's plan to invade the middle east is laughable.
x2

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Keep "misunderestimating" the man. The socialist left has no answer for Bush and the American right. They just stand on the sidelines, complaining, while the world is changing around them. Haha, enjoy the view. The most powerful force in modern times will dictate how the world is shaped for the next 100 years. The left is upset becuase Bush has made them irrelevant in the decision process. It eats at them, to be pushed to the sideline, to have their grandious socialist ideals laughed at in the halls of power. Haha, again, enjoy the show from the sidelines.

Sure, you and your ilk will gladly join the ash heap of societies. Did you all learn nothing from Eastern Europe? The Soviet Union? The glorious free society that is modern China? Perhaps Cuba is your shining acheivment. Soldier on, proud socialist. Watch as those who are smarter than you run the world. Socialism will never work. Just a form of punishment for those who are successful, doled out by those who cant succeed under capitalism. So until you remove America from the scene, your quest will fail.Good God someone dug up John Birch and resurrected him.

[IamWhatIam]

Change will happen. For the better or for the worse, who knows? But, Bush may do well to take credit for this change, for I see no one else taking a place on the world's stage to affect an impact in these days. Sure he may fall flat on his face and prove to be the fool if everything takes a turn for the worst. And sure there are PLENTY of mistakes he and the conservsative right has made in setting US foreign policy. But who else is trying to do SOMETHING to make this world a better place. At least he has the courage to stand up for what he believes in and not sit around complaining about the way things are going.


"Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world which yields most painfully to change. "
Robert F. Kennedy, 1966 speech
US Democratic politician (1925 - 1968)

x2

The problem most people have, is they don't believe in anything strongly enough to stand behind it.

[Shadow]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right.


Comparing Reagan's call for the Berlin wall to be torn down to George Bush's plan to invade the middle east is laughable.
x2

x3

[BlackRain]

Don't make the mistake of beliving democracy is the be all end all. Its the best form of government today, but it is by no means utopia. Before you worship Regan, don't forget about Chile, Nicaragua and the other ridiculous things his government did. Thank God the technology didnt exist for "star wars."

Reagan did what he could to stem the tide of Communism in the Western hemisphere. Sorry, I understand you love for Stalin, but too bad.

[BlackRain]

Keep "misunderestimating" the man. The socialist left has no answer for Bush and the American right. They just stand on the sidelines, complaining, while the world is changing around them. Haha, enjoy the view. The most powerful force in modern times will dictate how the world is shaped for the next 100 years. The left is upset becuase Bush has made them irrelevant in the decision process. It eats at them, to be pushed to the sideline, to have their grandious socialist ideals laughed at in the halls of power. Haha, again, enjoy the show from the sidelines.

Good post. Reminds me of Mark Twain's comment in relation to the Socialists - "Everyone complains about the weather, but no one does a damn thing about it." The left is complacent and does like leaders with a vision. IMHO.

[Commie]

Was it the left or right that pulled U.S. out of the great depression with "the new deal" if im not mistaken it was a series of socialist reforms that saved your country.

[IamWhatIam]

Was it the left or right that pulled U.S. out of the great depression with "the new deal" if im not mistaken it was a series of socialist reforms that saved your country.

Ok, I'll give you that, but if someone throws you a life presever when you're drowning and it saves your life, are you going to wear it from now on?

No, when you get back on the boat, you're going to take it off and put it away incase someone else needs it. You're not going to walk around on the boat with it on are you?

[melon]

Was it the left or right that pulled U.S. out of the great depression with "the new deal" if im not mistaken it was a series of socialist reforms that saved your country.


Yeah, we are still paying the price for that one. Generations of Americans that feel the government should provide them with a retirement. Its going to bankrupt our government in a few years. Unless we tax the hell out of the producers in our society or revamp it completely.

Just another grand socialist dream, looks and sounds good on paper, but fails in the real world. Living off of the backs of those who succeed, like a parasite. Europe is going to have to pay the piper on this philosophy as well, when your earners are outnumbered by your retirees.

What is the incentive for someone to work hard and succeed only to have to fork over their earnings to some government money pit to feed those who haven't the inclination to plan ahead? Never a problem in a socialist society, just tax the people more, they don't need it or deserve it. The downtrodden and lazy do. Well, those folks do nothing for the greater good of your society. Dumping resources on them is a waste of time and energy, but your bleeding socialist heart doesnt see that. Oh how can I sleep at night knowing some poor slob is hungry.

[IamWhatIam]

Just another grand socialist dream, looks and sounds good on paper, but fails in the real world. Living off of the backs of those who succeed, like a parasite. Europe is going to have to pay the piper on this philosophy as well, when your earners are outnumbered by your retirees.


That's going to happen sooner than they think and it's gonna be real ugly when it does....

[Ratman]

Don't make the mistake of beliving democracy is the be all end all. Its the best form of government today, but it is by no means utopia. Before you worship Regan, don't forget about Chile, Nicaragua and the other ridiculous things his government did. Thank God the technology didnt exist for "star wars."

Reagan did what he could to stem the tide of Communism in the Western hemisphere. Sorry, I understand you love for Stalin, but too bad.

Chile? I thought that was Nixon. Maybe you mean El Salvador, Guatamala and Honduras.

BlackRain, it gets annoying when you consistently fail to see 99% of history that exists between black and white. People do good things and bad things: Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush... I won't argue with your "stem the tide" of communism, but the facts are that Reagan et al propped up abusive governments, funded death squads that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians... The truth about these things don't get teased out by rubbishing someone's opinion by referring to "your love for Stalin". And the policy of propping up these murderous governments was not simply a fight against communism, it was a fight for American multinationals, it was a fight for compliant regimes. It wasn't as if he was fighting for democracy down there.

[IamWhatIam]

I'll put up our numbers of who's been killed because of what we have done against the number that has been killed by communist regimes and foriegn policy anyday. I'm not saying it's right, but you started the comparision game...

Offset that by the number of people we've actually helped and/or saved and that number diminishes very rapidly.

Try this, what if the US said "screw the world" and sat back and isolated itself from all the ill in the world. How long would it be before some countries would get together and go after some other weaker countries?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

this article is bad and has several errors. the german government always worked on reunification right from the beginning. united germany was declared aim of not only chancellor kohl but all german chancellors. what did surprise them was how quickly it happened after all.
calling reagans rakish call on gorbačov as beeing (even bit) responsible for that is ridiculous! its like giving "ich bin ein berliner" credit as well.
in late 80s anglophilia was near its peak. now talking about reagan beeing hated by majority of germans is just untrue. that articles authors intention becomes very obvious. he tries to construct that link to 89, but there is no such link. how can any serious person compare east germany, whose people where encaged by "socialism", but more than willing to change systems, to those culturally strong countries like syria or iran! ridiculous!

Dude - were you around (or at least politically interested) during the 80s'? Because if you were, you have a very, very selective memory. Do you not remember the massive protests in Europe over Reagan’s deployment of GLCMs? Have you forgotten the giant mobs of face-painted flower children who showed up at every event? Europe - Germany in particular was violently opposed to many of Reagan’s polices. Christ - look at European pop culture during that period - all the "rock" singers were weeping about nuclear destruction, final countdowns, two minutes to midnight, 99 frickin luft balloons, melting with you, SDI etc. - and none of them were pointing fingers at the USSR - it was Cowboy Ronnie's insane policy that was to blame. But the German government towed the American line, because they needed the Americans then.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2002/0702glcm.asp

[Ratman]

I'll put up our numbers of who's been killed because of what we have done against the number that has been killed by communist regimes and foriegn policy anyday. I'm not saying it's right, but you started the comparision game...

Offset that by the number of people we've actually helped and/or saved and that number diminishes very rapidly.

Try this, what if the US said "screw the world" and sat back and isolated itself from all the ill in the world. How long would it be before some countries would get together and go after some other weaker countries?

My point was that none of this black and white, but some people tend to gravitate there no matter what the subject matter is. With respect to your points, I can't see how it relates to my post.

[machupichu]

at that time there already was antiamericanism, anticapitalism, antiglobalization and pacifists. BUT those opinions were far from beeing widespread and popular!! what you can see in "old europe" especially in germany today, is how even long time friends of america and whole bourgeoisie changed sides.

[promillo]

... But the German government towed the American line, because they needed the Americans then.

During those glory days, as we won the cold war togehter, we had a competent and trustworthy government in germany. Not that redgreen bunch of former stasi-agents, rioters, corruptnics, neo-commies, grocer-taliban and losers of today.

[melon]

... But the German government towed the American line, because they needed the Americans then.

During those glory days, as we won the cold war togehter, we had a competent and trustworthy government in germany. Not that redgreen bunch of former stasi-agents, rioters, corruptnics, neo-commies, grocer-taliban and losers of today.


amen, well put.

[Weasel]

... But the German government towed the American line, because they needed the Americans then.

During those glory days, as we won the cold war togehter, we had a competent and trustworthy government in germany. Not that redgreen bunch of former stasi-agents, rioters, corruptnics, neo-commies, grocer-taliban and losers of today.


amen, well put.

...and funny as hell. rofl

[Elmo]

Was it the left or right that pulled U.S. out of the great depression with "the new deal" if im not mistaken it was a series of socialist reforms that saved your country.


Yeah, we are still paying the price for that one. Generations of Americans that feel the government should provide them with a retirement. Its going to bankrupt our government in a few years. Unless we tax the hell out of the producers in our society or revamp it completely.

Just another grand socialist dream, looks and sounds good on paper, but fails in the real world. Living off of the backs of those who succeed, like a parasite. Europe is going to have to pay the piper on this philosophy as well, when your earners are outnumbered by your retirees.

What is the incentive for someone to work hard and succeed only to have to fork over their earnings to some government money pit to feed those who haven't the inclination to plan ahead? Never a problem in a socialist society, just tax the people more, they don't need it or deserve it. The downtrodden and lazy do. Well, those folks do nothing for the greater good of your society. Dumping resources on them is a waste of time and energy, but your bleeding socialist heart doesnt see that. Oh how can I sleep at night knowing some poor slob is hungry.

Remember all this when the sh*t hits the fan for you.

Haven't you noticed that it is the capitalist class that is producing these "poor slobs"? You are producing your own demise, my arrogant fellow forumite.

BTW What did you do in life, to earn the right to take sides like that? Was your daddy rich or did you "succeed" by yourself?

What's wrong with decent social security? How greedy can you get? Greater good should mean solidarity.

And please, don't offer those economic theories -I mean, where is the growth headed? How much can the economy grow? And for what? Destruction of the planet, perhaps?

[promillo]

... But the German government towed the American line, because they needed the Americans then.

During those glory days, as we won the cold war togehter, we had a competent and trustworthy government in germany. Not that redgreen bunch of former stasi-agents, rioters, corruptnics, neo-commies, grocer-taliban and losers of today.


amen, well put.

...and funny as hell. rofl

I wonder if the many millions unemployed will laugh because of this gubberment too?

[Weasel]

... But the German government towed the American line, because they needed the Americans then.

During those glory days, as we won the cold war togehter, we had a competent and trustworthy government in germany. Not that redgreen bunch of former stasi-agents, rioters, corruptnics, neo-commies, grocer-taliban and losers of today.


amen, well put.

...and funny as hell. rofl

I wonder if the many millions unemployed will laugh because of this gubberment too?

Being unemployed does not mean they are stupid. They would laugh. They would laugh about your statements here. rofl

[IamWhatIam]

My point was that none of this black and white, but some people tend to gravitate there no matter what the subject matter is. With respect to your points, I can't see how it relates to my post.

I understand your black and white point of view, but you mixed in the fact that the US propped up governmets that were responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of people. Seemed very black to me, so I threw in some white.

Tha last part is just a general comment about our position in the world, we're either in or out, helping or not. If we help, we're bound to make mistakes, sometimes that happens, but if we're out, no mistakes but what's the result? If we sat back and did nothing what would the world look like today?

The black and white analogy is correct, for both sides. Nothing in the geo-political front is always as it seems....

[melon]

Remember all this when the sh*t hits the fan for you.

Haven't you noticed that it is the capitalist class that is producing these "poor slobs"? You are producing your own demise, my arrogant fellow forumite.

BTW What did you do in life, to earn the right to take sides like that? Was your daddy rich or did you "succeed" by yourself?

What's wrong with decent social security? How greedy can you get? Greater good should mean solidarity.

And please, don't offer those economic theories -I mean, where is the growth headed? How much can the economy grow? And for what? Destruction of the planet, perhaps?

Socialist just dont get it. When a man tastes success for the first time, success that he provided or earned for himself, he turns his back on those behind him. He finds nothing noble about being poor and hungry, in fact, despises it completely. Then he turns his attention to those who want to take him back to it. For those he reserves the greatest contempt.

You dont see how capitalism works, your blinded by your hatred of those deemed more successful than you, more creative than you, and worth more to society than you. Capitalism creates wealth, creates opportunity. Nothing prevents someone from moving up in the world under capitalism, except the slobs who want to keep them down. ANYONE can succeed in America, all you need is the drive and determination to work hard. Anything else you hear is wrong. I am living proof of that. I needed no handouts, nothing to become what I am today, independently wealthy, owner of a small business. An idea and hard work, that was it. But your lazy, government cheese ass doesnt understand that. You just want to take my hard earned money, give it to those who don't deserve it and didnt earn it. Screw you and your loser ideas. Greater good are words for people to lazy to take up the inititive.

America is full of har working people like this, and any European who shared this ideal IS ALREADY HERE, enjoying the fruits of their hard labor. Thats why you are surrounded by folks who think like you do, socialist and lazy. The smart ones left already.

Social Security is a joke! What right do you have to the fruits of MY LABOR! You lazy jerk. Provide for your own self, provide for your own retirement. How does retirement earn you the right to be a sponge off of society? Words like worker solidarity are ****. Learn to take care of yourself, you parasite. If you need a hand, look to your neighbor, not your government.

Yeah, destruction of the planet. Good one, when logic fails, start talking about how the earth is in danger. Geesh,

[promillo]

Socialist just dont get it. When a man tastes success for the first time, success that he provided or earned for himself, he turns his back on those behind him. He finds nothing noble about being poor and hungry, in fact, despises it completely. Then he turns his attention to those who want to take him back to it. For those he reserves the greatest contempt.

You dont see how capitalism works, your blinded by your hatred of those deemed more successful than you, more creative than you, and worth more to society than you. Capitalism creates wealth, creates opportunity. Nothing prevents someone from moving up in the world under capitalism, except the slobs who want to keep them down. ANYONE can succeed in America, all you need is the drive and determination to work hard. Anything else you hear is wrong. I am living proof of that. I needed no handouts, nothing to become what I am today, independently wealthy, owner of a small business. An idea and hard work, that was it. But your lazy, government cheese ass doesnt understand that. You just want to take my hard earned money, give it to those who don't deserve it and didnt earn it. Screw you and your loser ideas. Greater good are words for people to lazy to take up the inititive.

America is full of people like this, and any European who shared this ideal IS ALREADY HERE, enjoying the fruits of their hard labor. Thats why you are surrounded by folks who think like you do, socialist and lazy. The smart ones left already.

Social Security is a joke! What right do you have to the fruits of MY LABOR! You lazy jerk. Provide for your own self, provide for your own retirement. How does retirement earn you the right to be a sponge off of society? Words like worker solidarity are ****. Learn to take care of yourself, you parasite.

Yeah, destruction of the planet. Good one, when logic fails, start talking about how the earth is in danger. Geesh,



Amen, brother!

I wish i would have those opportunities and chances here in Germany, as you can enyoy in the US.
But here the nanny-state steals most of my wages to put it in a system of corruption and incompetence, called wellfare-state.
But that is no welfare, its only f---ing those who work and waste money for commisioners and lazy losers. Why the house-owner proportion for common workers is so much higher in the US than in Germany? Because in the US the workers can keep what they earned and spend it, as they want.
But in Germany, the government thinks, the people is too minor, so it gets its money stolen from state.

But the best is the "HIV" called Arbeitsmarktreform (hartz roman-4).
Let me explain
German workers are FORCED to pay (a lot of money!) into a state own fund to get some money in case of unemployment. Now the state changes the rules, what leads to the result, that someone who had paid decades into this fund, will get nothing out but some peanuts for only one year. No private owned fund executive would ever dare to cheat his customers that way. But the state does. This is nothing but an expropriation.Billions of hard earned money is gone. How can such an embezzlement be just?
:-(

[melon]

I didnt mean to insult all Europeans, all of them are not government cheese socialists. But to my American eyes, that is the greatest concentration of them. Apologies to those who dont share in the "greater good" philosophy.

[Elmo]

Socialist just dont get it. When a man tastes success for the first time, success that he provided or earned for himself, he turns his back on those behind him. He finds nothing noble about being poor and hungry, in fact, despises it completely. Then he turns his attention to those who want to take him back to it. For those he reserves the greatest contempt.


Well, at least you do, you selfish, selfish person.




You dont see how capitalism works, your blinded by your hatred of those deemed more successful than you, more creative than you, and worth more to society than you. Capitalism creates wealth, creates opportunity. Nothing prevents someone from moving up in the world under capitalism, except the slobs who want to keep them down. ANYONE can succeed in America, all you need is the drive and determination to work hard. Anything else you hear is wrong. I am living proof of that. I needed no handouts, nothing to become what I am today, independently wealthy, owner of a small business. An idea and hard work, that was it. But your lazy, government cheese ass doesnt understand that. You just want to take my hard earned money, give it to those who don't deserve it and didnt earn it. Screw you and your loser ideas. Greater good are words for people to lazy to take up the inititive.

American dream fits those who actually succeed. But those who do, do it by the expense of others. You are too self-centerd to understand it. And I'm not talking about giving all your money away. Just a wee bit solidarity. Could you view it as your obligation...like "The Strong are Obliged to help those in need!" (systematically, please)

And hey, I'm not asking anything for myself, as you immediately would assume. This is a matter of values. Not about you and me. There is life eslewhere, you know. I'm doing quite well, thank you.



America is full of people like this, and any European who shared this ideal IS ALREADY HERE, enjoying the fruits of their hard labor. Thats why you are surrounded by folks who think like you do, socialist and lazy. The smart ones left already.

Lazy? Ah, the work ethic. But why? Looking for salvation? But hey, you can't take any luggage with you when the time comes.


Social Security is a joke! What right do you have to the fruits of MY LABOR! You lazy jerk. Provide for your own self, provide for your own retirement. How does retirement earn you the right to be a sponge off of society? Words like worker solidarity are ****. Learn to take care of yourself, you parasite.

Yeah, wealth doesn't allow equal opportunities. There will be the rich families who most likely remain rich and the poor families who most likely will remain poor. Just take a look at your president! He's been collecting fruits all his life.

"Your labor"! Aren't you special. What about those who own nothing but their labor? They make pitiful amount of money and have no other way in life. It's sad.

"If you are so smart, how come you are not rich" -what a crock of...

You see, some people are not as smart as you. Some are even born disabled. Some are mentally ill, unable to work. What should be done with them? Let them wonder the streets and eating out of garbage bins?




Yeah, destruction of the planet. Good one, when logic fails, start talking about how the earth is in danger. Geesh,

Logic fails? No it doesn't. It is obvious you are proud to be a greedy self-centered egoist.

Besides, just look what your beloved capitalism has done to the planet in the last 100+ years. Beautiful. isn't it?

[melon]

Amen, brother!

I wish i would have those opportunities and chances here in Germany, as you can enyoy in the US.
But here the nanny-state steals most of my wages to put it in a system of corruption and incompetence, called wellfare-state.
But that is no welfare, its only f---ing those who work and waste money for commisioners and lazy losers. Why the house-owner proportion for common workers is so much higher in the US than in Germany? Because in the US the workers can keep what they earned and spend it, as they want.
But in Germany, the government thinks, the people is too minor, so it gets its money stolen from state.

But the best is the "HIV" called Arbeitsmarktreform (hartz roman-4).
Let me explain
German workers are FORCED to pay (a lot of money!) into a state own fund to get some money in case of unemployment. Now the state changes the rules, what leads to the result, that someone who had paid decades into this fund, will get nothing out but some peanuts for only one year. No private owned fund executive would ever dare to cheat his customers that way. But the state does. This is nothing but an expropriation.Billions of hard earned money is gone. How can such an embezzlement be just?
:-(


The embezzlement is just because your populace isnt armed. American politicians know that there are WAY to many legal gun owning Tax payers to try and pull that crap. Remember, opportunity is only a short plane ride away.

[Weasel]

Socialist just dont get it. When a man tastes success for the first time, success that he provided or earned for himself, he turns his back on those behind him. He finds nothing noble about being poor and hungry, in fact, despises it completely. Then he turns his attention to those who want to take him back to it. For those he reserves the greatest contempt.

You dont see how capitalism works, your blinded by your hatred of those deemed more successful than you, more creative than you, and worth more to society than you. Capitalism creates wealth, creates opportunity. Nothing prevents someone from moving up in the world under capitalism, except the slobs who want to keep them down. ANYONE can succeed in America, all you need is the drive and determination to work hard. Anything else you hear is wrong. I am living proof of that. I needed no handouts, nothing to become what I am today, independently wealthy, owner of a small business. An idea and hard work, that was it. But your lazy, government cheese ass doesnt understand that. You just want to take my hard earned money, give it to those who don't deserve it and didnt earn it. Screw you and your loser ideas. Greater good are words for people to lazy to take up the inititive.

America is full of people like this, and any European who shared this ideal IS ALREADY HERE, enjoying the fruits of their hard labor. Thats why you are surrounded by folks who think like you do, socialist and lazy. The smart ones left already.

Social Security is a joke! What right do you have to the fruits of MY LABOR! You lazy jerk. Provide for your own self, provide for your own retirement. How does retirement earn you the right to be a sponge off of society? Words like worker solidarity are ****. Learn to take care of yourself, you parasite.

Yeah, destruction of the planet. Good one, when logic fails, start talking about how the earth is in danger. Geesh,



Amen, brother!

I wish i would have those opportunities and chances here in Germany, as you can enyoy in the US.
But here the nanny-state steals most of my wages to put it in a system of corruption and incompetence, called wellfare-state.
But that is no welfare, its only f---ing those who work and waste money for commisioners and lazy losers. Why the house-owner proportion for common workers is so much higher in the US than in Germany? Because in the US the workers can keep what they earned and spend it, as they want.
But in Germany, the government thinks, the people is too minor, so it gets its money stolen from state.

But the best is the "HIV" called Arbeitsmarktreform (hartz roman-4).
Let me explain
German workers are FORCED to pay (a lot of money!) into a state own fund to get some money in case of unemployment. Now the state changes the rules, what leads to the result, that someone who had paid decades into this fund, will get nothing out but some peanuts for only one year. No private owned fund executive would ever dare to cheat his customers that way. But the state does. This is nothing but an expropriation.Billions of hard earned money is gone. How can such an embezzlement be just?
:-(

Why don´t you move away?

Btw. the social system you described is supported by every german democratic party. Regardless of left or right winged.

[BlackRain]

Chile? I thought that was Nixon. Maybe you mean El Salvador, Guatamala and Honduras.

BlackRain, it gets annoying when you consistently fail to see 99% of history that exists between black and white. People do good things and bad things: Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush... I won't argue with your "stem the tide" of communism, but the facts are that Reagan et al propped up abusive governments, funded death squads that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians...

Hah! Where is you evidence of this? Reagan simply chose the lesser of two evils. He supported non-Communist regimes.

The truth about these things don't get teased out by rubbishing someone's opinion by referring to "your love for Stalin".

It is true though isn't it? It is simply a waste of time to try and convince leftist that their position is wrong because they do not respond to facts.

And the policy of propping up these murderous governments was not simply a fight against communism, it was a fight for American multinationals, it was a fight for compliant regimes. It wasn't as if he was fighting for democracy down there.

That is your revisionist opinion, we know what Reagan was up to in South America.

[Macs.]

Germanys socialist-system is gonna crash, and then we all have to build up this country with hard work, just like we did after ww2.

[BlackRain]

Was it the left or right that pulled U.S. out of the great depression with "the new deal" if im not mistaken it was a series of socialist reforms that saved your country.



This is revisionist history at it's best.

Ironically, FDR, the president who implemented so many government programs himself, was elected on a platform of a balanced budget and economic non-intervention. So what did he do upon getting into office? He promptly expanded on Hoover's programs. Some of these programs, the ones that increased spending, would get approval from Keynesians. Others, however, like the minimum wage and the Davis-Bacon Act, suffered from the same problems that Hoover's programs did: they reduced price flexibility, often setting a minimum and thus continued to exacerbate the Great Depression.

FDR's policies seemed to work at first. The economy began to expand again in 1933 and continued to do so until May of 1937. At that point, a second depression began and lasted until June of 1938.

What got the United States out of the Depression?

World War II. The United States entered World War II in December of 1941, the year generally considered to be the end of the Great Depression. Federal outlays skyrocketed as the country geared up for war. This Keynesian-style boost to the economy seems to have brought the depression to an end.

It was not social welfare programs that ended the Depression.

[melon]

Well, at least you do, you selfish, selfish person.

Thats always the answer, someone successful is selfish. I provide much for those around me.



American dream fits those who actually succeed. But those who do, do it by the expense of others. You are too self-centerd to understand it. And I'm not talking about giving all your money away. Just a wee bit solidarity. Could you view it as your obligation...like "The Strong are Obliged to help those in need!" (systematically, please)

And hey, I'm not asking anything for myself, as you immediately would assume. This is a matter of values. Not about you and me. There is life eslewhere, you know. I'm doing quite well, thank you.

Lazy? Ah, the work ethic. But why? Looking for salvation? But hey, you can't take any luggage with you when the time comes.


Yeah, wealth doesn't allow equal opportunities. There will be the rich families who most likely remain rich and the poor families who most likely will remain poor. Just take a look at your president! He's been collecting fruits all his life.

"Your labor"! Aren't you special. What about those who own nothing but their labor? They make pitiful amount of money and have no other way in life. It's sad.


Success, which seems foreign to you, isnt always derived from the expense of others. A myth, propagated by the socialist left, is that the poor will remain poor under capitalism, unless a just and noble government delivers them from it. CROCK OF ****. The poor in this country are no further from success and financial freedom than anyone else. Some just have to work harder at it, but some will fail. That is a fact of life, some will fail, some will succeed more than others. But your idea does nothing but GUARANTEE they wont succeed. Everyone will not be a millionaire under capitalism, I am not, but I live a comfortable life. The poor slob who works hard may not achieve everything he wants, but his children will, if he instills a good work ethic in them. Success breeds success. In America, there is no reason to remain poor. Your lot in life doesnt need to be poor and helpless. If all you have is your labor, in America, labor is the path to economic success. My family is a perfect example of this. My father was a SHARE CROPPER for crist sake. He worked hard, became a success, and passed his knowledge onto his family.
This story is repeated a million times a year in America. Nothing you say can change this. Its a fact of life. Complaining about it does nothing to change it. You can call it selfish if you want, try to guilt me into thinking I am wrong, but my warm house, fat bank account, beautiful wife, thriving business, wonderful children, my 7 employees, all tell me you're wrong. I am living the American dream, and am willing to let others live it too.

Your ideas, on the other hand, have been proven wrong time and time again.

And when my time comes, I plan on passing my wealth onto my children. Tax free. But when that time does come to pass, there will be those like yourself with their hand out, looking for what they claim is their fair share.

[IamWhatIam]

Ok, this is a very interesting discussion and it's inspired me!

I think all the left wing socialist wannabe's over here should move to their country of choice where the system they're striving for here is already in place. Just leave us capitalist's alone and we'll see where everyone's at in another 10 years...

I don't really see to many people from the US immigrating anywhere. I wonder why that is?

See before we had all this "new deal" crap that’s still around, people took care of themselves and their family members. If they couldn't, there was always a church or some other self-sustaining organization around to help, as it should be. The people helped each other out because there was no choice, now that there is a choice, people just brush off their civic responsibility to whoever's in line to take it.

The downward spiral.....

[promillo]

Why don´t you move away?

Btw. the social system you described is supported by every german democratic party. Regardless of left or right winged.

I stay, because I hope that there will be a chance to get this country back on top. To defeat communism again, as we did 1989. To become a respected and trusted part of the free world again, as before 2002.

BTW, did you read th FDP-program? There are many interesting things in, which can free us from corrupt nanny-states agencies.

Maybe I am a patriot. But not that kind of german world dominating and hate monging patridiots. More the kind of positive US-Patriots, who works for a goot thing because it is good for all.

We will see...in worst case I hope to get out, before you build a new wall around germany.

[melon]

Why don´t you move away?

Btw. the social system you described is supported by every german democratic party. Regardless of left or right winged.

I stay, because I hope that there will be a chance to get this country back on top. To defeat communism again, as we did 1989. To become a respected and trusted part of the free world again, as before 2002.

BTW, did you read th FDP-program? There are many interesting things in, which can free us from corrupt nanny-states agencies.

Maybe I am a patriot. But not that kind of german world dominating and hate monging patridiots. More the kind of positive US-Patriots, who works for a goot thing because it is good for all.

We will see...in worst case I hope to get out, before you build a new wall around germany.


Dont let yourself get down. An idea can change a country. Find others who believe the way you do, get organized. The foundations are there, you just have to believe you can change things. Sometimes people dont always see things the right way, you need to let them know there is a better way.

[Weasel]

Why don´t you move away?

Btw. the social system you described is supported by every german democratic party. Regardless of left or right winged.

I stay, because I hope that there will be a chance to get this country back on top. To defeat communism again, as we did 1989. To become a respected and trusted part of the free world again, as before 2002.

BTW, did you read th FDP-program? There are many interesting things in, which can free us from corrupt nanny-states agencies.

Maybe I am a patriot. But not that kind of german world dominating and hate monging patridiots. More the kind of positive US-Patriots, who works for a goot thing because it is good for all.

We will see...in worst case I hope to get out, before you build a new wall around germany.

Naaa, it´s ok. Stay and fight communists. Good luck for finding some. rofl

No, I did not read the FDP-program. It´s not a party I could ever vote for.

[IamWhatIam]

Why don´t you move away?

Btw. the social system you described is supported by every german democratic party. Regardless of left or right winged.

I stay, because I hope that there will be a chance to get this country back on top. To defeat communism again, as we did 1989. To become a respected and trusted part of the free world again, as before 2002.

BTW, did you read th FDP-program? There are many interesting things in, which can free us from corrupt nanny-states agencies.

Maybe I am a patriot. But not that kind of german world dominating and hate monging patridiots. More the kind of positive US-Patriots, who works for a goot thing because it is good for all.

We will see...in worst case I hope to get out, before you build a new wall around germany.

I wish you all the best mt friend, you are a true patriot to your country, no matter what anyone says.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You dont see how capitalism works, your blinded by your hatred of those deemed more successful than you, more creative than you, and worth more to society than you. Capitalism creates wealth, creates opportunity. Nothing prevents someone from moving up in the world under capitalism, except the slobs who want to keep them down. ANYONE can succeed in America, all you need is the drive and determination to work hard. Anything else you hear is wrong. I am living proof of that. I needed no handouts, nothing to become what I am today, independently wealthy, owner of a small business. An idea and hard work, that was it. But your lazy, government cheese ass doesnt understand that. You just want to take my hard earned money, give it to those who don't deserve it and didnt earn it. Screw you and your loser ideas. Greater good are words for people to lazy to take up the inititive.

American dream fits those who actually succeed. But those who do, do it by the expense of others. You are too self-centerd to understand it. And I'm not talking about giving all your money away. Just a wee bit solidarity. Could you view it as your obligation...like "The Strong are Obliged to help those in need!" (systematically, please)

Oh come on. I damn near fell out of my chair upon reading this leftist tripe. Can you explain, exactly how my success has harmed anyone else? How has my being a success impacted any other person negatively? I don't want to hear some fanciful notion of how some "system" "oppresses" anybody - I want concrete evidence that by me elevating myself, I have pushed somebody else down.

You seem to believe life is a zero-sum game, which it is not. I cannot fathom how some people are able to rationalize a system by which they are relieved of all responsibility, and can just chalk up their inadequacies and failures to "the man keepin' 'em down". It must be very comforting to believe that one's situation is not of one's own making - that one is powerless, cannot change anything, and it's perfectly OK to stop trying.

[Elmo]

Oh come on. I damn near fell out of my chair upon reading this leftist tripe. Can you explain, exactly how my success has harmed anyone else? How has my being a success impacted any other person negatively? I don't want to hear some fanciful notion of how some "system" "oppresses" anybody - I want concrete evidence that by me elevating myself, I have pushed somebody else down.

I can't. It isn't personal. (Unless you run a sweatshop in China, that is)
But, take consumption as an example. All the crap people feel the need to consume. The capitalist class pays way too little for workers who only own their labor, to produce unimportant consumer goods, for the benefit of the capitalist, who then manipulates the market to sell their products to these same workers they have been ripping off in the first place.

What this has to do with you? Well, not much necessarily, depends on your position -how much wealth you get out of this. That is the question.

By all means, people should try to succeed. But please take care of the environment and your fellow citizens and even more importantly, everybody in the global system. It's a matter between greed and solidarity.



You seem to believe life is a zero-sum game, which it is not. I cannot fathom how some people are able to rationalize a system by which they are relieved of all responsibility, and can just chalk up their inadequacies and failures to "the man keepin' 'em down". It must be very comforting to believe that one's situation is not of one's own making - that one is powerless, cannot change anything, and it's perfectly OK to stop trying.

It's not ok to stop trying. But I truly admire the people who started the workers' movements around the world. And I truly admire those who helped to establish the social security system and universal healthcare.

And I truly despise those right wing people who point fingers at the weakest and accusing them of stealing their money.

[Elmo]

This story is repeated a million times a year in America. Nothing you say can change this. Its a fact of life. Complaining about it does nothing to change it. You can call it selfish if you want, try to guilt me into thinking I am wrong, but my warm house, fat bank account, beautiful wife, thriving business, wonderful children, my 7 employees, all tell me you're wrong. I am living the American dream, and am willing to let others live it too.

Your ideas, on the other hand, have been proven wrong time and time again.


My ideas proved wrong time and time again? Wrong! See, I support mixed economy, where ethos for economic growth is not the end in itself and everybody can live a life without struggling. Especially the weakest. What do you think about those who just can't work? Handicapped people, mentally ill people, alcoholics, junkies, hippies? Should you just dump them with the garbage? If not everybody, who? Where do you draw the line?


And when my time comes, I plan on passing my wealth onto my children. Tax free. But when that time does come to pass, there will be those like yourself with their hand out, looking for what they claim is their fair share.

Hey, it is not personal. Besides, I'm willing to pay for greater good. In fact
even though I study and get some money from the government I pay more in taxes every year. I just love to pay taxes. And I will continue to fight for my right to pay those taxes.

[IamWhatIam]

What do you think about those who just can't work? Handicapped people, mentally ill people, alcoholics, junkies, hippies? Should you just dump them with the garbage? If not everybody, who? Where do you draw the line?


You were doing ok up until there. Handicapp people and the mentally ill, don't really have a choice in life, so you do what needs to be done to help them live as best as they can. But Alcoholics, junkies and hippies make their own misery, so they don't get the same treatment. There are plenty of non-profit programs out there to help them, so it all boils down to personal responsibility. If someones not going to be responsible for their life, why shoud I care? If someone is and they need some help, that's a different story.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Alcoholism and drug addiction are I agree self inflicted. But they are diseases. And it's in the government and society's best interests to assist them in fixing their lives up.

And many a times these people slip into these conditions becuase of pressures from the real world. It's all nice to say "It's not my problem" but when these addicts come and break into your house dont come whinging to the left. We offered to help these people so they dont commit crime.

[IamWhatIam]

Alcoholism and drug addiction are I agree self inflicted. But they are diseases. And it's in the government and society's best interests to assist them in fixing their lives up.

And many a times these people slip into these conditions becuase of pressures from the real world. It's all nice to say "It's not my problem" but when these addicts come and break into your house dont come whinging to the left. We offered to help these people so they dont commit crime.

Appaerently you didn't see my bit about the non-profits helping, but thats ok. I'll repeat myself, There are organizations to help these people, if they want to be helped. Personal responsibility!

As for if they break into my house, the only call I'll need to make is to the police, so they can come pick up the bodies.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

But wouldent you much rather not have to worry about these people breaking into your house?

[melon]

Alcoholism and drug addiction are I agree self inflicted. But they are diseases. And it's in the government and society's best interests to assist them in fixing their lives up.

Why? They ****ed up their lives, why should I pay for others mistakes? If I make a bad business decision, will the same druggies, hippies and alcoholics help make it better? Hell no. Liberal socialists always have their hand out for SOMEONE elses money. AND ITS THE GOVERNMENTS AND SOCIETIES BEST INTEREST TO NOT SUPPORT THE LEGALIZATION OF DRUGS. Something your leftist fags in America want really bad, another way to avoid and escape the realities of life. Acoholism and drug addiction are not diseases, they are a life style choice. You think like a woman. Reactive, not proactive.

Personal responsibility, I believe in stopping the problem before it becomes one. A socialist, like yourself, would prefer to let the individual do what they want, irregardless of the bill that will be due to society down the road for such recklessness. Sure, at that point, the individual is a worthless shell, useless to society, another parasite for my labors to feed and cloth, and you, with your heart on your sleave and your hand out. Call it what you want, selfishness, lack of compassion, whatever. It means nothing to me. People have free will and free thought, they should try using that to not screw themselves up in the first place.


And many a times these people slip into these conditions becuase of pressures from the real world. It's all nice to say "It's not my problem" but when these addicts come and break into your house dont come whinging to the left. We offered to help these people so they dont commit crime.

Wow, nice excuse for laziness, more mantra and tripe programed into the heads of DUMB, YOUNG KIDS. Tell them life is difficult because of the man keeping them down. Your crap gives people an excuse to be dumb, to take responsibility of nothing. The ignorant feed off of your misguided compassion. "Pressures of the real world" what kind of crap is that? When the folks who can't deal with the realities of life come knocking unwantedly late at night, they will be dealt with appropriately. You can help them dig a paupers grave.

Pressures of the real world. Ha.

[IamWhatIam]

But wouldent you much rather not have to worry about these people breaking into your house?

If they break into my house I will shoot them, no worries there!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hmm ok.

You would much rather a world that casts the unfortunate aside. Thats a really good way to live. I'll remember this when a right winger starts compaining because they have lost their job and their personal savings have been spent and they cant support themselves anymore because they are unable to find work. And dont say this doesent happen. It bloody well does. I personally know people have university degrees comming out of their asses they are that qualifed up. But have yet to land a job. 12 months after finishing a masters in economics.

This is how hypocritical the right is. And that it's unable to look outside their little box. Thats why it's called conservative.

Take the unemployed. I for one agree with a conservative policy of getting the unemployed to do further education or work on community projects (make a park, mow pensioners lawns) or show proof they are actually looking for work.

I also have no problems with the legalisation of pot. Nor do I have problems with the de-criminalisation of recreational party drugs. Oh and I also fully support government run injection rooms which in Australia have proved a big success in reducing drug overdoses and drug related crime and the prevention of AIDS amongs drug users.

But it's kinda funny that the majority of the worlds developed countries are implenting such policies and America being the only real country arguing against such change.

The so called country of the free. The country who's forefathers were all rich slave owning capitolists who had a sook over some taxes.

Now that last comment was delibratly aimed to sound stupid just to piss you ****s off.

[melon]

Hmm ok.

You would much rather a world that casts the unfortunate aside. Thats a really good way to live. I'll remember this when a right winger starts compaining because they have lost their job and their personal savings have been spent and they cant support themselves anymore because they are unable to find work. And dont say this doesent happen. It bloody well does. I personally know people have university degrees comming out of their asses they are that qualifed up. But have yet to land a job. 12 months after finishing a masters in economics.

This is how hypocritical the right is. And that it's unable to look outside their little box. Thats why it's called conservative.

Take the unemployed. I for one agree with a conservative policy of getting the unemployed to do further education or work on community projects (make a park, mow pensioners lawns) or show proof they are actually looking for work.

I also have no problems with the legalisation of pot. Nor do I have problems with the de-criminalisation of recreational party drugs. Oh and I also fully support government run injection rooms which in Australia have proved a big success in reducing drug overdoses and drug related crime and the prevention of AIDS amongs drug users.

But it's kinda funny that the majority of the worlds developed countries are implenting such policies and America being the only real country arguing against such change.

The so called country of the free. The country who's forefathers were all rich slave owning capitolists who had a sook over some taxes.

Now that last comment was delibratly aimed to sound stupid just to piss you ****s off.

haha, you're an idiot. Have you ever actually created anything? Do you have any assets? Anything of value? My guess is no.

America is the land of the free, home of the brave. Speak nicely of it. Odds are you will need us to save your stupid ass one of these days.

Enjoy your government sponsored crack houses, while I take my slaves and order them to pick some cotton. rofl rofl You put it correctly, the only "real" country is America. Our unemployment is 5%, which is full employment, as the rest are either unemployable or just lazy. A wall full of useless history and arts degrees won't get you employed anywhere. Who needs another know-nothing jerk telling how your successful business is all being done wrong.

Your desire to legalize illicit and destructive drugs only proves your ignorance. Keep smoking, I will just keep making money. Enjoy your government sponsored retirement while I live it up in style, somewhere warm and sunny. Another dumb, socialist kid who knows it all.

And I wont be left in the ash pile of the unemployed, again, I run my own business! I employ myself, self determination baby. I dont need someone else telling me what to do all day long. Thats just for mindless, unimaginitive drones like yourself. Punching the clock for the man. Haha.

You're an idiot. Nothing you say will ever prevent me from pounding idiots like you into the ground. Your philosophy never stands up to logic. Sorry. No, I'm not sorry. Idiots get what they deserve.

[IamWhatIam]

Man, that's like throwing under handed to Barry Bonds! Even before steroids! rofl

[usa320]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right.


Comparing Reagan's call for the Berlin wall to be torn down to George Bush's plan to invade the middle east is laughable.
x2

Its people like you that said it couldnt be done. The soviet Union fell. The Berlin wall collapsed.

People said Iraq would never be a democracy. Saddam is gone. More people turned out to vote than did in the US.

You doubters might complain and say things are impossible and cannot be done. And history will prove you doubters wrong. There is no looking back, only forward, forward to a future of hope for the good people, and an end to those that are determined to stand in the way of peace, prosperity and progress..

4 Years ago, if you told me that

-Afghanistan would be a country free from brutal theocratic rule, and would no longer be a Al Qaeda's base of operations.

-Iraq would be a free country working on democratic processes and a constitution, that saddam would be gone and the suffering of the Iraqi people at the hands of the Fedayeen would be comming to an end.

-Syrian troops would begin pulling back from Lebanon.

-Weeks pass without a suicide bombing in Israel.

-Libya's weapons programme would be defunct.

-3/4 of Al Qaeda would be destroyed, and all 52 of the top Iraqi thugs were behind bars

-The Palestinians were to set an example of democracy in the middle east.

I would have said you were a crazy dreamer. But things have changed, and i have changed. I realize that the first step to progress is crazy dreaming... Call Bush a crazy dreamer. In 20 years, our world will be prosperous and more peaceful because of his crazy dreaming.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Australia's unemployment sits around at 5% as well. Just so you know.

Again your doing nothing in supporting your views. Commen held tactic of the right is to attack the left over policy.

Haha just thought of something. "It's the RIGHT way or the wrong way"

Atleast us lefties do come up with ideas. If it wasent for us so called idiots with arts degrees we would be still in the ****ing dark ages.

Enlightement my friend is the key.

Oh and by the way. I'm fairly well off just so you know. Oh and I'm a socialist. **** me better lock me up I've commited a crime for being socialist with ****ing money. God forbid. Sorry father for I have ****ing sinned.

[usa320]

melon has only made 49 posts, and i already love him.\


woot

[melon]

Australia's unemployment sits around at 5% as well. Just so you know.

Again your doing nothing in supporting your views. Commen held tactic of the right is to attack the left over policy.

Haha just thought of something. "It's the RIGHT way or the wrong way"

Atleast us lefties do come up with ideas. If it wasent for us so called idiots with arts degrees we would be still in the f*** dark ages.

Enlightement my friend is the key.

Oh and by the way. I'm fairly well off just so you know. Oh and I'm a socialist. f*** me better lock me up I've commited a crime for being socialist with f*** money. God forbid. Sorry father for I have f*** sinned.

I dont need anything to support my views, my results speak for themselves. Liberals like to debate policy because they can't point to any successful examples of their philosophy working.

If I only saw the light. Idiot. I have seen the light, and that light is the shining city on the hill.

Keep coming with the ideas Lefty, and the right will keep knockin em out of the park.

And without the hard work of individuals, your grandious ideas wouldn't mean ****. So when you grow up and realize the world is bigger than your narrow ideas of self gratification and pleasure, the real world will be waiting.

[machupichu]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right.


Comparing Reagan's call for the Berlin wall to be torn down to George Bush's plan to invade the middle east is laughable.
x2

Its people like you that said it couldnt be done. The soviet Union fell. The Berlin wall collapsed.

People said Iraq would never be a democracy. Saddam is gone. More people turned out to vote than did in the US.

You doubters might complain and say things are impossible and cannot be done. And history will prove you doubters wrong. There is no looking back, only forward, forward to a future of hope for the good people, and an end to those that are determined to stand in the way of peace, prosperity and progress..

4 Years ago, if you told me that

-Afghanistan would be a country free from brutal theocratic rule, and would no longer be a Al Qaeda's base of operations.

-Iraq would be a free country working on democratic processes and a constitution, that saddam would be gone and the suffering of the Iraqi people at the hands of the Fedayeen would be comming to an end.

-Syrian troops would begin pulling back from Lebanon.

-Weeks pass without a suicide bombing in Israel.

-Libya's weapons programme would be defunct.

-3/4 of Al Qaeda would be destroyed, and all 52 of the top Iraqi thugs were behind bars

-The Palestinians were to set an example of democracy in the middle east.

I would have said you were a crazy dreamer. But things have changed, and i have changed. I realize that the first step to progress is crazy dreaming... Call Bush a crazy dreamer. In 20 years, our world will be prosperous and more peaceful because of his crazy dreaming.
rofl

[budgie]

Sure, you and your ilk will gladly join the ash heap of societies. Did you all learn nothing from Eastern Europe? The Soviet Union? The glorious free society that is modern China? Perhaps Cuba is your shining acheivment. Soldier on, proud socialist. Watch as those who are smarter than you run the world. Socialism will never work. Just a form of punishment for those who are successful, doled out by those who cant succeed under capitalism. So until you remove America from the scene, your quest will fail.

1) Eastern Europe (I presume you mean pre-1989), The USSR and Cuba were/are communist countries. Socialism is not the same as communism. I don't care what they called themselves. I do not advocate those forms of government.

2) Modern China is as you sarcastically pointed out, not free. Nor is it socialist in anything but name. The government is a totalitarian kleptocracy that panders to uber-capitalist tycoons. It is also consistently among the world's fastest growing economies and that's not possible for a socialist state (or at least it's rarely been achieved).

3) I don't know you, you don't know me and it's safe to say neither of us knows how smart the other is. Fair?

4) Just what kind of quest do you think I'm on mate?

[usa320]

Spiegel: Could George W. Bush Be Right?

Germany loves to criticize US President George W. Bush's Middle East policies -- just like Germany loved to criticize former President Ronald Reagan. But Reagan, when he demanded that Gorbachev remove the Berlin Wall, turned out to be right.


Comparing Reagan's call for the Berlin wall to be torn down to George Bush's plan to invade the middle east is laughable.
x2

Its people like you that said it couldnt be done. The soviet Union fell. The Berlin wall collapsed.

People said Iraq would never be a democracy. Saddam is gone. More people turned out to vote than did in the US.

You doubters might complain and say things are impossible and cannot be done. And history will prove you doubters wrong. There is no looking back, only forward, forward to a future of hope for the good people, and an end to those that are determined to stand in the way of peace, prosperity and progress..

4 Years ago, if you told me that

-Afghanistan would be a country free from brutal theocratic rule, and would no longer be a Al Qaeda's base of operations.

-Iraq would be a free country working on democratic processes and a constitution, that saddam would be gone and the suffering of the Iraqi people at the hands of the Fedayeen would be comming to an end.

-Syrian troops would begin pulling back from Lebanon.

-Weeks pass without a suicide bombing in Israel.

-Libya's weapons programme would be defunct.

-3/4 of Al Qaeda would be destroyed, and all 52 of the top Iraqi thugs were behind bars

-The Palestinians were to set an example of democracy in the middle east.

I would have said you were a crazy dreamer. But things have changed, and i have changed. I realize that the first step to progress is crazy dreaming... Call Bush a crazy dreamer. In 20 years, our world will be prosperous and more peaceful because of his crazy dreaming.
rofl


Laugh. Im right. You might not realize it now, but decades from now, you will.

[IamWhatIam]

Australia's unemployment sits around at 5% as well. Just so you know.

That's great! You should be proud of that.



Again your doing nothing in supporting your views. Commen held tactic of the right is to attack the left over policy.

Funny, that sounds exactly like what you're doing here.

Uhh, what was all that before? Arguing logically isn't supporting our views? Its hard to explain it any better than it's a matter of personal responsibility and where you draw the line on holding people accountably for their actions.



Haha just thought of something. "It's the RIGHT way or the wrong way"


You need a t-shirt with that on it! But spell it backwards so you can read it in the mirror!



Atleast us lefties do come up with ideas. If it wasent for us so called idiots with arts degrees we would be still in the f*** dark ages.

Enlightement my friend is the key.


People with sanity, logic, vision and a thirst for knowledge made the world what it is today, people with arts degrees just made it prettier to look at, most of the time.




Oh and by the way. I'm fairly well off just so you know. Oh and I'm a socialist. f*** me better lock me up I've commited a crime for being socialist with f*** money. God forbid. Sorry father for I have f*** sinned.

I detect a hint of bitterness here, hmmmmm.

[Top Gun]

What did Reagan do in Chile? I think you are a few years off there buddy.

Way to lose all credibility.

Yeah sorry I said Chile when I ment El Salvador. :oops:

[TheKiwi]

Funny isn't it how the left lost interest in Nicaragua the day after the people held their first free elections, and threw out the Communists, and backed the 'right wing facist murderers'.

The day before the election, the country was full of journo's predicting that this was where US foreign policy would get its come-uppance.

The day after, it barely rated a mention in the news. The people of Nicaragua rejected communism, and they've never voted them back. I wonder why? (NOT)

[melon]

Oh and by the way. I'm fairly well off just so you know. Oh and I'm a socialist. f*** me better lock me up I've commited a crime for being socialist with f*** money. God forbid. Sorry father for I have f*** sinned.

Haha, a fool and his money are soon parted. This fool will just give it away to his political masters.

[machupichu]

Laugh. Im right. You might not realize it now, but decades from now, you will.
im laughing because according to that logic, starting worldwar1+2 was a good thing as it finally lead to democracy in europe. that kind of logic is retarded, dont you see?? conclusions may lose validity over the years, and you didnt take that into account - tells me your opinions arent well-grounded :lol:

[melon]

Laugh. Im right. You might not realize it now, but decades from now, you will.
im laughing because according to that logic, starting worldwar1+2 was a good thing as it finally lead to democracy in europe. that kind of logic is retarded, dont you see?? conclusions may lose validity over the years, and you didnt take that into account - tells me you didnt think that throught very well :lol:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/whocares6.jpg

[machupichu]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/whocares6.jpg
got more pictures?

[budgie]

This is too rich - I couldn't resist.




I dont need anything to support my views, my results speak for themselves. Liberals like to debate policy because they can't point to any successful examples of their philosophy working.

High words, but so few details:

Poverty is lower in Canada, Australasia and Western Europe because the government provides safety nets. The crime rate is ridiculously low in Japan and Sweden because people aren't desperate. Millions of Americans have benefitted from Social Security, pensions, Medicare and education and training subsidies that have lifted them out of poverty or given them a fresh start. Thse are all 'liberal' or 'socialist' policies that have worked in non-socialist countries.

If I only saw the light. Idiot. I have seen the light, and that light is the shining city on the hill.

Propped up by as many 'socialist' institutions as not.

Keep coming with the ideas Lefty, and the right will keep knockin em out of the park.

Swing away.

And without the hard work of individuals, your grandious ideas wouldn't mean ****. So when you grow up and realize the world is bigger than your narrow ideas of self gratification and pleasure, the real world will be waiting.

Well sharing the wealth is considering others over one's own narrow ideas of self gratification, isn't it?


The reason I use quotations around 'socialist' and 'socialism' is because it's not the word I choose. here it is being tarred by association with communism which is a failed economic model. Just look at how China has turned it's back on it.

However we need to be aware that while socialism as an all prevailing system may not be the solution, nor is an entirely unregulated market and no safety nets. We live with and have benefitted from 'socialist' policies every day. If you or anyone you care about has ever gone to a public school, been temporarily on unemployment benefits or received subsidized healthcare then you've benefitted from one of the 'socialist' policies that are supposedly ruining western democracies.

And guys are you aware that when you insult people online and call names it makes you look about three feet tall? Seriously, we should try to be grown ups about it here. Would we talk to each other like that face to face?

[usa320]

Laugh. Im right. You might not realize it now, but decades from now, you will.
im laughing because according to that logic, starting worldwar1+2 was a good thing as it finally lead to democracy in europe. that kind of logic is retarded, dont you see?? conclusions may lose validity over the years, and you didnt take that into account - tells me your opinions arent well-grounded :lol:\

No, you totally missed the logic. You will never understand the logic. or Logic in general for that matter.

[machupichu]

Laugh. Im right. You might not realize it now, but decades from now, you will.
im laughing because according to that logic, starting worldwar1+2 was a good thing as it finally lead to democracy in europe. that kind of logic is retarded, dont you see?? conclusions may lose validity over the years, and you didnt take that into account - tells me your opinions arent well-grounded :lol:\

No, you totally missed the logic. You will never understand the logic. or Logic in general for that matter.
youre saying:
"even if theres chaos and killing going on in iraq today, the war may prove right and good in 100 years when theres good and friendly democracy (peace) in iraq"

thats your attitude, isnt it?

[usa320]

Laugh. Im right. You might not realize it now, but decades from now, you will.
im laughing because according to that logic, starting worldwar1+2 was a good thing as it finally lead to democracy in europe. that kind of logic is retarded, dont you see?? conclusions may lose validity over the years, and you didnt take that into account - tells me your opinions arent well-grounded :lol:\

No, you totally missed the logic. You will never understand the logic. or Logic in general for that matter.
youre saying:
"even if theres chaos and killing going on in iraq today, the war may prove right and good in 100 years when theres good and friendly democracy (peace) in iraq"

thats your attitude, isnt it?


What your saying is we should have allowed Saddam Hussein to stay in power. We should have allowed Saddam Hussein's secret police to continue stuffing people into wood chippers just for speaking against Saddam. We Should have allowed Chemical Ali to continue dumping Sarin and VX onto towns and villages just because the people there had a different interpretation of the Koran. We should have allowed Saddam Husseins sons to kill and maim anyone who opposed them, we should have let them continue to beat athletes because they didnt win medals. We should have allowed Saddam to continue to send money to terrorist groups to blow up pizza shops, weddings and coffee parlors in Israel, and continue to destabilize the middle east. We should have let Saddam continue to pose a threat to his neighbors. We should have let saddam continue to defy 19 UN resolutions and the will of the world. Thats what your saying. And your dead wrong. Theres no argument, i dont feel i need to explain myself or make you believe getting rid of Saddam was a good thing to do. I know where you stand, its clear as day, and thats that.

[budgie]

What your saying is we should have allowed Saddam Hussein to stay in power. We should have allowed Saddam Hussein's secret police to continue stuffing people into wood chippers just for speaking against Saddam.

Why not? We allow Ghaddafi and Assad and Kim Jong Il. It's not up to America and corerct me if I'm wrong that wasn';t the reason for the war in the first place.

We Should have allowed Chemical Ali to continue dumping Sarin and VX onto towns and villages just because the people there had a different interpretation of the Koran.

They seem to have given that up a long time ago.

We should have allowed Saddam Husseins sons to kill and maim anyone who opposed them, we should have let them continue to beat athletes because they didnt win medals. We should have allowed Saddam to continue to send money to terrorist groups to blow up pizza shops, weddings and coffee parlors in Israel, and continue to destabilize the middle east.

Well what have we replaced it with? Terrorists who blow up police stations in Baghdad. What's the difference if it creates a bigger mess? And Saddam's payments to terrorists are a product of the Palestinian crisis - not a cause.

We should have let Saddam continue to pose a threat to his neighbors.

He wasn't any more. his army was hobbled, restricted by NATO no fly zones and Kurdish 'state' in the north. His WMD programs were over.

We should have let saddam continue to defy 19 UN resolutions and the will of the world.

Israel has defied a dozen resolutions for 35 years. Why not?

Thats what your saying. And your dead wrong. Theres no argument, i dont feel i need to explain myself or make you believe getting rid of Saddam was a good thing to do. I know where you stand, its clear as day, and thats that.

Now getting rid of Saddam was good. But the way in Which Bush lied or cooked up evidence or - if you want to insist he's just stupid instead of dishonest - allowed himself to be swayed by faulty intelligence to start a war based on false assumptions was dead wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right and despite some small successes the mess in Iraq proves that.

[BarkingSquirrel]

Ah, either he went off for no reason, or hes wrong for listening to intelligence agencies. A bit of the "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" goes a long way. Seems you have all your bases covered eh?

[usa320]

Two wrongs don't make a right and despite some small successes the mess in Iraq proves that.

What we have here is a basic rift of attitudes and outlooks really. Me, i forsee the future of Iraq. I forsee hope. I see a bright outlook on things. You only look at the mistakes of the past. Sure we must learn from our mistakes, but then we must move forward. We cannot dwell on them. I see a number of small failures in the progress that Iraq proves to be for stability in the middle east and the end of tyranny. You only look at the failures. You dont see the good. You dont see the big picture. Nothing i can say will ever change that. Maybe sooner or later youll grow up and realize it, but its not my job to try and persuade you otherwise.

[IamWhatIam]

What your saying is we should have allowed Saddam Hussein to stay in power. We should have allowed Saddam Hussein's secret police to continue stuffing people into wood chippers just for speaking against Saddam.

Why not? We allow Ghaddafi and Assad and Kim Jong Il. It's not up to America and corerct me if I'm wrong that wasn't the reason for the war in the first place.

Ghaddafi and Assad, not the same scale. Kim Jong Il, to close to china.
Who says that was the reason we went over there? It was just a by product.

We Should have allowed Chemical Ali to continue dumping Sarin and VX onto towns and villages just because the people there had a different interpretation of the Koran.

They seem to have given that up a long time ago.

Yea right after we invaded and had inspectors all over the place. Which, BTW, doesn't mean he stopped making them or having them, he just couldn't use them for fear of exposing himself.

We should have allowed Saddam Husseins sons to kill and maim anyone who opposed them, we should have let them continue to beat athletes because they didnt win medals. We should have allowed Saddam to continue to send money to terrorist groups to blow up pizza shops, weddings and coffee parlors in Israel, and continue to destabilize the middle east.

Well what have we replaced it with? Terrorists who blow up police stations in Baghdad. What's the difference if it creates a bigger mess? And Saddam's payments to terrorists are a product of the Palestinian crisis - not a cause.

No, the Iraqi people replaced him with an elected official.
What Palastinian crisis?

We should have let Saddam continue to pose a threat to his neighbors.

He wasn't any more. his army was hobbled, restricted by NATO no fly zones and Kurdish 'state' in the north. His WMD programs were over.

Yea, while inspectors were crawling all over his country and we were flying multiple sorties everyday!
But lets say your right and they continued and found and destroyed all the remaining WMD's, do you really think he couldn't make them again? He had the infrastrucure and the money and without people watching him....

We should have let saddam continue to defy 19 UN resolutions and the will of the world.

Israel has defied a dozen resolutions for 35 years. Why not?

Thats because everybody but the US and the Brits hate Israel.


Thats what your saying. And your dead wrong. Theres no argument, i dont feel i need to explain myself or make you believe getting rid of Saddam was a good thing to do. I know where you stand, its clear as day, and thats that.

Now getting rid of Saddam was good. But the way in Which Bush lied or cooked up evidence or - if you want to insist he's just stupid instead of dishonest - allowed himself to be swayed by faulty intelligence to start a war based on false assumptions was dead wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right and despite some small successes the mess in Iraq proves that.

[melon]

For the slower of the group....

so·cial·ism
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

so·cial·ist
1. An advocate of socialism.

2. A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

You can split the word down to justify it to yourself. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck.

Please dont confuse the idea of public health, schools, roads ect with the ideals of modern socialism. You're only confusing yourself. We came a long way as a species before some started taking from the producers and giving it to the parasites of a society. I don't need to be lectured by some pimply faced kid on the virtures solidarity and greater good; Someone who has no assets, no family, nothing of value at stake. Socialism sounds good to those who have nothing. Its not an answer, its a crutch.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The Australian Platypus has a bill like a duck, feet like a duck but it aint a duck.

[melon]

The Australian Platypus has a bill like a duck, feet like a duck but it aint a duck.

But it doesnt quack like a duck, nor does it look like a duck. Once again, socialist logic is beaten down, but surely a long, lengthy debate will be undertaken in the hallowed halls of acedemia to debate this topic. All the while, free market folks have cornered the market on said ducks, selling them for a tidy profit. 5 years later and 10 million dollars later, learned socialist scholars emerge, satisfied that, yes a platypus may indeed look like a duck, but it isnt.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Nice response I will pay that :))

Thought I'd throw a wobbly in.

[Ratman]

My point was that none of this black and white, but some people tend to gravitate there no matter what the subject matter is. With respect to your points, I can't see how it relates to my post.

I understand your black and white point of view, but you mixed in the fact that the US propped up governmets that were responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of people. Seemed very black to me, so I threw in some white.

Tha last part is just a general comment about our position in the world, we're either in or out, helping or not. If we help, we're bound to make mistakes, sometimes that happens, but if we're out, no mistakes but what's the result? If we sat back and did nothing what would the world look like today?

The black and white analogy is correct, for both sides. Nothing in the geo-political front is always as it seems....

I was trying to give the grey. Reagan might has been a cold warrior rightfully concerned with speard of Soviet sponsored communism, but he he did a lot of brutal stupid **** himself. Hence the grey. And I completely agree that the analogy is correct for both sides.

[Ratman]

Chile? I thought that was Nixon. Maybe you mean El Salvador, Guatamala and Honduras.

BlackRain, it gets annoying when you consistently fail to see 99% of history that exists between black and white. People do good things and bad things: Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush... I won't argue with your "stem the tide" of communism, but the facts are that Reagan et al propped up abusive governments, funded death squads that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians...

Hah! Where is you evidence of this? Reagan simply chose the lesser of two evils. He supported non-Communist regimes.

Where's the evidence of this? Try any mainsteam book on the subject. (Then admitting the premise just denied) "[h]e chose the lesser of two evils..." Well that's why I said that the matter is grey. He might have had a noble plan, but I don't see the point of keeping out one brutal regime so as to support a different equally brutal one. Both are bad. Grey, again.

The truth about these things don't get teased out by rubbishing someone's opinion by referring to "your love for Stalin".

It is true though isn't it? It is simply a waste of time to try and convince leftist that their position is wrong because they do not respond to facts.

"Leftist don't respond to facts"? Where do you come up with this stuff - scientific inquiry? Dolts don't see the grey and "quote" things that nobody ever said and that don't make any sense in any event.

And the policy of propping up these murderous governments was not simply a fight against communism, it was a fight for American multinationals, it was a fight for compliant regimes. It wasn't as if he was fighting for democracy down there.

That is your revisionist opinion, we know what Reagan was up to in South America.

We do know what Reagan was up to in Latin America. He was creating and supporting governments that were murdering thousand of innocents in the name of democracy, some of it financed by arms sales to terror-supporting regimes in contravention of numerous Congressional decisions. Above the law isn't just for communist regimes. More grey.



You're a right fooking eegit.