Poland's thunder commandos hunt Saddam

[budanski]

Poland's thunder commandos hunt Saddam
Fri 7 November, 2003 04:22
******* (http://www.*******.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=400076&section=news)

By Wojciech Moskwa

BALTIC SEA COAST, Poland (*******) - Under cover of darkness and in complete silence Polish elite commandos stormed an offshore Iraqi oil platform in the first days of the U.S.-led war to oust Saddam Hussein.

As they advanced towards the rig's control centre, it was far from clear if Saddam would use chemical weapons or even if the platform itself was a ****y-trapped.

"Suddenly an old telephone we passed on the platform began to ring. We held our breath thinking the ringer could be a fuse mechanism for a bomb," recalled an officer who took part in the mission.

"After a few rings it went quiet. Probably a wrong number," said the 31-year-old commando from his base on Poland's Baltic Sea coast.

His elite GROM unit was Poland's only active participant in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Under U.S. command, GROM captured one platform with a second rig taken by U.S. Navy SEALs.

Special Forces unit GROM -- which means "thunder" in Polish -- may have also won a new lease on life during the Iraq war.

Months before a Polish-led international force took control of a zone in postwar Iraq in September, GROM cleared vessels from the port of Umm Qasr and helped secure a dam near Baghdad.

Now GROM troops are helping the hunt for Saddam, Poland's top general, General Czeslaw Piatas, revealed in unexpectedly candid comments.

Asked about Piatas's statement, GROM Commander Colonel Roman Polko smiled wryly and said: "We never discuss missions before they end and rarely after they end."

SILENT FORCES

Despite GROM's success since its creation in 1990 to counter terror threats linked to Operation Bridge, which brought Soviet Jews to Israel via Poland, it is paradoxically weak inside the military, reflecting the often-rigid views of the top brass.

Unlike the U.S. military which allowed some press access to their "silent forces", Poland did not confirm its involvement in Iraq until a ******* news photograph showed Polko alongside American troops celebrating in front of a mural of Saddam.

"That picture caused one hell of a storm, egos were bruised. Only public handshakes with leading civilian commanders began to settle things a bit," said one GROM officer.

Retired General Slawomir Petelicki, founder and first commander of the unit -- which trained with U.S. and British special forces before formerly communist Poland joined the NATO alliance in 1999 -- makes a more stinging assessment.

"This war saved GROM. Poland's generals do not understand GROM and wanted to split the unit between the army and navy," said Petelicki, now a senior consultant at Ernst & Young.

"GROM's approach is based on the knowledge of experts who train the world's best special forces, while the generals who still rule in Poland had their training in Soviet academies."

Elite foreign troops who have cooperated on missions with GROM also paint a positive picture of their Polish peers.

"We really hit it off with GROM. They are well-led, well-equipped and very professional. As good as any unit we've worked with in the (Iraq war) coalition, perhaps better," Navy SEALs Lieutenant Commander Jay Richards told *******.

PRAISE

GROM has won praise for its missions, such as its operations in Haiti in 1994, and later in the war-torn Balkans.

"GROM needs freedom and flexibility to react quickly to a wide range of problems, while regular troops, amassed in large forces, need unified action and thinking to be successful," said Polko, a graduate of the prestigious U.S. Army Rangers school.

This approach has led to differences in attitude, equipment, pay and dress -- GROM troops usually wear street clothes not army greens -- fuelling jealousy among the old-guard. GROM's heritage as an elite unit born outside the walls of the defence ministry further isolates the force.

Less than five percent of candidates actually get into GROM, which in previous years has accepted women recruits.

"The introduction of women into our ranks has made us more versatile and has a positive balancing effect on troops, who work under tremendous stress," said a lieutenant who leads a marine sub-unit at GROM, which also has a paratrooper outfit.

Polko said he tendered his resignation as GROM commander after hearing of military plans to curb its role but the scheme was quickly withdrawn.

"The Iraq conflict showed that GROM is the only combat-ready and NATO-compatible unit in Poland's 150,000-strong army," said one senior defence ministry source, who asked not to be named.

"But that also irritated some who seek to sideline special forces and give more dominance to army regulars."

http://www.theartofposter.com/17l.gif

[ScopeScene]

Nice post, thanks!

[Gordon]

Seems that the problems GROM is having within the Polish army aresimilar to those that affected the British SAS, in their early years the usefulness of the SAS was often doubted by many brass.

[tony6]

Exactly-but it seems that our generals are beginning to understand that the SF are the core of XXI century army.

[NcDeuce]

;)

[StarvingStudent47]

Despite GROM's success since its creation in 1990 to counter terror threats linked to Operation Bridge, which brought Soviet Jews to Israel via Poland, it is paradoxically weak inside the military, reflecting the often-rigid views of the top brass.

Very interesting. I had no idea this is why GROM was formed. That's cool.

Does anyone know what exactly these terrorist threats were and who they originated from? Were terror attacks actually carried out against Poland by Muslim or Arab extremists (or Neo-Nazis, or ultra-leftists)?

[fred_engles]

Does anyone know what exactly these terrorist threats were and who they originated from? Were terror attacks actually carried out against Poland by Muslim or Arab extremists (or Neo-Nazis, or ultra-leftists)?PLO and related groups.

[He219]

GROM was created in 1991, when Hezbollah and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine threatened reprisal attacks within Polish borders after Operation Bridge, 1990.

Petelicki tried selling his idea of an elite Polish commando group much earlier, "but those Russians didn't like to have real special forces operating in Poland--they feared we could start training in guerrilla warfare against them."
http://www.aei.org/research/nai/news/newsID.17667,projectID.11/news_detail.asp

http://www.jinsa.org/documents/200306/2077.jpg

[StarvingStudent47]

Gotta love Hezbollah and the PFLP.

[He219]

gotta love to hate 'em ...
;)

One of the more specialized units within GROM is Poland’s special combat diver group, Grupa Specjalna Pletwonurkow (GSP), more commonly known as “Formoza,” which was recently operating in the Persian Gulf region. U.S. Navy sources revealed to Jane’s International Defence Review (IDR) in May 2003 that a small unit of Polish Special Operations forces was engaged in maritime interdiction operations. The Polish Navy has not yet admitted that it sent Formoza personnel to the Gulf, but the Polish logistic support ship, ORP Kontradmiral Xawery Czernici had been stationed in Bahrain since July 2002. The ship preformed operations with the Royal Australian Navy frigates HMAS Anzac (F150) and HMAS Darwin (F04) and the U.S. Navy vessels USS Paul Hamilton (DDG-60) and USS Rueben James (FFG-58). However, the U.S. Navy “unofficially assured” IDR that Formoza divers preformed well during missions by the side of U.S. Navy SEALs combatants.
http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/884/documentid/2076/history/3,884,2076

[perdurabo]

Well we in Poland hear that Formoza isn't part of GROM but it's other group made by our Navy and consist of navy combat divers and groups to board ships oil platforms and near shore acktions but i can be wrong " sorry...military secret..." is strong here "...not talk not ask questions about them to not indanger spetialist and their familys..." :) BTW i heard that military is making another SF group about 100men strong but more like CT and bodyguard unit than strike.

[tony6]

He219:
It's a common mistake: Formoza IS NOT PART of tthe GROM!
Formoza (GSP-Grupa Specjalna Pletwonurkow-Divers Special Group) is a NAVY special unit and has nothing to do with GROM.
The only thing that connects those two unit is that they train together at Baltic Sea.
As for Polish new SF unit-it will be part of Zandarmeria Wojskowa (kind of Military Police). Teams A+B=100 men.
Team A:their taks will be VIP protecting (chief of staff. minister of defense).
Team B: combat team, CQB, neutralizing/arresting armed hostiles.
The unit will be found on january 2004.
Mr. Kossek will be responsible for training&equipment. He used to train Russian SF units (Alfa).
REMOV knows more about it:)

[Russian Texan]

Mr. Kossek will be responsible for training&equipment. He used to train Russian SF units (Alfa).



And who told you that? :) I have read 2 separate books about "Alfa" and have never encountered Mr.Kosseks name. Besides the fact that it is impossible to imagine a forigner being involved in the training of the Alfa or anything else significant in the Soviet society due to it's secrecy, there is also such little thing as Poland not having it's own SF till Grom was created back in '91. Get real....
May be he was training spetsnaz "GRU" too? :lol:

[REMOV]

Besides the fact that it is impossible to imagine a forigner being involved in the training of the Alfa or anything else significant in the Soviet society due to it's secrecyYou know, the first Russian Intelligence commander was a Pole not Russian ;) Impossible you said? So tell me why Russian government gives Kossak a decoration in 2003? ;)


there is also such little thing as Poland not having it's own SF till Grom was created back in '91.And maybe Poles better kept their secrets? ;) Besides GROM wasn't the first special unit in Poland but first special unit of its kind (capable for international co-operation and trained partially by Americans and Brits).

[Russian Texan]

Which commander are you talking about? What was the decoration given for and what was it ?

[tony6]

Well, Texan-although I know very little about this case it seems that I know more than You about Your own SF:)
As far as I know mr. Kossek was decorated by the Russian minister of defence (or interior) after the Dubrovka assault and now he is official advisor in the field of SF.
He trained Alfa and some other unit soldiers.

[tony6]

P.S. (Texan)
...so You say there were no SF in Polish military before 1991?
Interesting...
What about 48th,56th, and 62th special kompanies?
They were disformed in 1990-today 1st Special Regiment continues their work.
And NAVY SF unit Formoza was found in '70s (as far as I know).
Get real...

[perdurabo]

Russian Texan mr.Kossek trains also american SWAT units and meany others CT groups. He trains Specnaz and Witiaz (sp?) there is spetial shooting training caled Kossek-Witiaz... (If you see some one in Alfa siut on SWAT training it will be him(or SWAT siut on Alfa):)
BTW month ago or so russians give him a medal for training their CT units.

(there was an article in polish newspaper SuperExpress about it but i can't find it)

[Seoulstriker]

GROM is really incredible.

i wonder if it's related to this: ;)

http://www.igz.it/dep/grom/grom.jpg

[Russian Texan]

As far as I know mr. Kossek was decorated by the Russian minister of defence (or interior) after the Dubrovka assault and now he is official advisor in the field of SF.
He trained Alfa and some other unit soldiers.

Are you implying that those two events are somehow connected? As for Mr Kossek being awarded, I don't remember reding anything about it in russian newspapers. Could it be that he was given a medal for "international cooperation" , "strenghthening of friendship between the countries" or something similar? Here is my version: The guy played host for some Russian delegation in Poland and was thanked for that or may be he had a couple of drinks with VDV guys in Bosnia hence "strenghthening of friendship between the countries".

As for him "training" Alfa and other russian units - impossible because of how SOVIET/RUSSIAN MILITARY/MVD WORKS :bash:
I suggest you look up Alfa's history before making ridiculous statements but again, what do I know, I have only read couple of books about it and you get you info from a local newspaper....
But for the sake of fun I'm going to ask about mr Kossek one the russian military intelligence forum and see what I get.


I have also failed to find any info about "Kossek-Witiaz" shooting style.
Any links?

He trains Specnaz and Witiaz (

Do you even know what spetsnaz is and what structure VITYAZ belongs to? Look it up and realize how stupid your statement is. One more little thing, usually special forces don't advertise their present training methods and people who train them, that should be a hint for you about credibility of the source. People get real.... :bash:

[perdurabo]

I know him mate that's my source (and i don't know you). And you just bashed REMOV hahaha :) you sit in texas and read books :)
EDIT: his name is Marcin Kossek you can find it in google moust of it is in Polish (or everything knowing russian "military secret" mania)

[Russian Texan]

And you just bashed REMOV hahaha
Uh?


I know him mate that's my source (and i don't know you).

Well, let me introduce myself - I AM THE BADDEST ASS MOFO NAVY SEAL/DELTA/RANGER TRAINER OUT THERE. I WAS GIVEN NUMEROUS AWARDS AND CITATIONS BY MANY GOVERNMANTS FOR TRAINING THIER SF, YOU CAN READ ABOUT IT IN ALL OF THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS AROUND THE WORLD. AND MY SHOOTING STYLE IS BEING TAUGHT TO ALL KINDEDRGARDENERS.

That statement has as much credibility as yours. The guy feeds you BS and you eat it. Are you really that gullible? Next time before you get excited and facinated by someones "war stories" try to cool your head and look at it objectively... BTW newsapers, even Polish ones, do make up stories, New York post does :)

Man, how can I take your statements seriously if you have no clue about structure of russian spetsnaz or MVD? You are simply making statements about things that you don't know. It is not the fact that all of that type SF organizations are closed structures and no outsiders allowed, it's not the fact that they cover their faces and don't speak in public, it's not the fact that any instructor in Russian military would have 100's of times more combat experience than anyone from Poland (although I can almost see you arguing about that too), it's so MANY other factors that would make it impossible :roll: Believe what you want, frankly - I don't care. :|

[perdurabo]

:cantbeli: i'll stop talking here because its like talking to wall mate 4 ppl said that to you and you still cant belive, making him general advisor of new SF unit should say you something :)

[Russian Texan]

So how is him being general advisor to Polish SF proves that he trained Alfa? BTW you do realize that Alfa is not spetsnaz, do you?

[tony6]

...typical Russian.
So only because You don't know him You think it's bull****?
Who the hell are You, man?
As for any Russian instructor being 100 times better than Polish-You mean "combat" experience in Czeczenia? (killing and raping civilians and searching for any vodka?)
Man-I knew that You Russuans have a complex because Poland is no longer under Your influence, but still...
I advice You to hold Your horses a little bit.

BTW-Kossek is NOT advisor to Polish SF!
He is advisor in Russia, not in Poland.

[Russian Texan]

Man, sound like you have some major issues :roll: Based on your post I start to think that some of the polish people might have some kind of complex towards Russia, may be 'cause its a small country that was run over many times, I don't know. Talk to me when you have calm down and have some evidence, geeez...touchy, touchy

[tony6]

Yeah-but we are still here, don't we?
And don't forget that small country kicked Your ass few times in the history. (1920 for example)
Not to mention occupation of Moscow (it was little earlier-in case You don't remeber Your history lessons).

As for Czeczenia-whole world knows what are You doing there...

[Herrmannek]

Man, sound like you have some major issues :roll: Based on your post I start to think that some of the polish people might have some kind of complex towards Russia, may be 'cause its a small country that was run over many times, I don't know. Talk to me when you have calm down and have some evidence, geeez...touchy, touchy
Russia was also run-over several times, gues by who......Poles :)

[Russian Texan]

Dude, occupation of Moscow happened in mediaeval times... I'm sure it was the highlight moment in Polish history but its time to get over it, really.... :roll: I have post it somewhere before but I'll repeat myself: Contrary to the belief of many Polish people, I can guarantee you Russians won't even notice if Poland vanishes from the face of the Earth. After all it takes only one SS18 :) (joke) Why are you so bitter, is it because Poland is independent (nothing depends on it)?

Get over it, get on with your life. Polish SF are the best in the world with the most experience and Polish military can kick anyones ass anytime. POLAND RULES!!!! FOREVER!!!!

Yeah whatever....

[Russian Texan]

Russia was also run-over several times, gues by who......Poles

It was also run over by mongols, teutonic knights, turks and some more...whats your point?

[Herrmannek]

Dude, occupation of Moscow happened in mediaeval times... I'm sure it was the highlight moment in Polish history but its time to get over it, really.... :roll: I have post it somewhere before but I'll repeat myself: Contrary to the belief of many Polish people, I can guarantee you Russians won't even notice if Poland vanishes from the face of the Earth. After all it takes only one SS18 :) (joke) Why are you so bitter, is it because Poland is independent (nothing depends on it)?

Get over it, get on with your life. Polish SF are the best in the world with the most experience and Polish military can kick anyones ass anytime. POLAND RULES!!!! FOREVER!!!!

Yeah whatever....

Do you think that someone else than Chechens would notice lack of Russia? I doubt. We can kick everbody ass but who knows what happens after that, esspecialy you noticed SS18 :)

[California Joe]

All I know is tonight I'm wearing the camo boxers and making the wife call me "Thunder Commando".

[tony6]

How can You describe occupation of other state's capitol "the highlight moment in history"? War is never "highlight".
I'm not bitter at all-we are in NATO and from may 2004 we'll be part of EU. I like living in Poland more and more every year.

I didn't say that ouf Army and SF are the best...and so on, because they don't. But looking at Your SF intervention in Dubrovka I thank Lord I don't live in Moscow! 140 killed? I don't even remeber the number.
Nevermind- I don't want to argue with You man nor getting involve in some bull**** talks "who's better".
Peace to You brother.

[Herrmannek]

Russia was also run-over several times, gues by who......Poles

It was also run over by mongols, teutonic knights, turks and some more...whats your point?

You were saying that we have complex related to over-runs, I put example of Russia over-runed by other country saying that you may have that complex too, nothing more.

[tony6]

Here it comes...
That is exactly what I called "bull**** talk":)
C'mon guys!
We are not in the kindegarden for Crist Sake.
Give man a brake!
He's Russian:) (joke)

OK - I won't tell nothjing more:)

[Russian Texan]

What is that obsession with Chechnya and how does it affect Polands inferiority complex? And yes, they will notice because the money will stop coming. Several days ago I have made a post about the real moving forces behind that conflict, look it up if you want more detailed info.

Besides what are we arguing about, everyone knows that the only country that comes even close to Poland in terms of military capabilities is Honduras.

But since Polish people are so interested in Chechnya conflict here are some new pics
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/098.jpg

http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/258.jpg

http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/399.jpg

http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/472.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/408.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/292.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/397.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/125.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/124.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/169.jpg
http://www.ukraineonline.net/chechnya/dima/168.jpg

All of those guys were trained and taught everything they know by Polish advisors like Mr. kossek.


You were saying that we have complex related to over-runs, I put example of Russia over-runed by other country saying that you may have that complex too, nothing more.
Yeah, but I haven't noticed Russians developing any complex from it... We just don't careabout what happened several hundred years ago.
Poland needs to move on and get over it...

[Herrmannek]

Hey I enjoy that conversation. I'ts not stupid maybe childish a litle. I didn't ever stated that Poland can run-over Russia at present time.

But we can bit you with sense of humor(In Psuedo Russian):


Two Russians are riding in transiberial train, they were bored so they went out a cabine, and go to corridor to smoke. When smoking one asked other
-Куда ты едёш(where are you heading)?
-В Москву(Moscow)-answered guy and asked the same question to first
-Я в Новосывирск(New Sibirsk)
After minute of silence they said
-Вот техника(That technology!)

[Russian Texan]

rofl
That is funny rofl rofl rofl rofl
Listen, you talk to Polish - Poland is the best, you talk to Chinese - China is the best, German - Germany and so on... Look at me "Russian Texan" I'm freaking torn between two places :) I have nothing against Poland and by no means want to offend any of its people. It was an argument and we all shared our views, no hard feelings.

[tony6]

So Moscow was also occupied by Honduras??
I didn't know that!
:)

[Herrmannek]

Listen, you talk to Polish - Poland is the best, you talk to Chinese - China is the best, German - Germany and so on...

This is called patriotism :).

Look at me "Russian Texan" I'm freaking torn between two places :)
I hope not literaly :)


I have nothing against Poland and by no means want to offend any of its people. It was an argument and we all shared our views, no hard feelings.
Learned to not take seriously everything what people are saying here. No bad feelings at all :)

[REMOV]

As for him "training" Alfa and other russian units - impossible because of how SOVIET/RUSSIAN MILITARY/MVD WORKS :bash: Well... "You can believe the media or you can learn the truth. The choice is yours." ;)

[16 OBr SpN]

Hi everyone.

I'm a new one on this forum.

I have several questions to ask our Polish friends (since you are all too well informed); or maybe you could ask Mr. Kossek himself:

1) Which brigade was he located at during "training" of Russian SF?
2) Can he name at least one soldier from Russian SF who can confirm it? Name; rank and station.
3) What radio code was used to designate 'Alfa' during storming of Dubrovka? Since he trained them during those events, I'm sure he will answer those questions.
4) As for Mr. Kossek receiving a medal, that's something truly amazing! When exactly (date/month) did he receive the medal?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[tony6]

Jesus!
Why are You Russians so angry about that?
The guywas couple of times in Russia, trained few men -that's it.
What's so strange about that?
And how the hell should I know some f... Alfa radio code??
Don't be ri****ilous, man.
If You wanna know this-ask himself. I'm not Kossek.

[16 OBr SpN]

There is a medal which was issued to soldiers of Russian spetsnaz. It says "Warsaw - 65", and was issued in 1965. It was given to members of Northern Group of Spetsnaz GRU (4th Recon Batallion; 5th Brigade) which was stationed in Poland and partially in Germany.

Give me your e-mails, and I'll send the photo of the medal to you.

I guess, spetsnaz GRU was intentionally dismantled after 1965, because they knew Polish "instructors" would "teach" them after 1990's! rofl

[16 OBr SpN]

The post on the first page...


As far as I know mr. Kossek was decorated by the Russian minister of defence (or interior) after the Dubrovka assault and now he is official advisor in the field of SF.
He trained Alfa and some other unit soldiers.

and the new one...


Jesus!
Why are You Russians so angry about that?
The guywas couple of times in Russia, trained few men -that's it.
What's so strange about that?
And how the hell should I know some f... Alfa radio code??
Don't be ri****ilous, man.
If You wanna know this-ask himself. I'm not Kossek.

Make up your mind Tony!

"The guywas couple of times in Russia, trained few men -that's it"
WOW!! That's truly an indicator of an "instructor" and "official advisor" to Russian SF! rofl You ask me what's so strange about that? Do you have any idea WHAT exactly is the training process in Russian SF and where exactly does that training take place??

I'm sure you don't, otherwise you wouldn't post such nonsense.

Tony6, please give me Mr. Kossek's e-mail. I would LOVE to talk with the "instructor". :D
And I'll try to post our e-mails on this forum.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[perdurabo]

for freeking out russian dudes ive assked him for some proof if he's in Poland he may send me something if he isn't we can wait months:] last time he was in Asia oh as far as i know he is official field advisor.

[16 OBr SpN]

for freeking out russian dudes ive assked him for some proof if he's in Poland he may send me something if he isn't we can wait months:] last time he was in Asia oh as far as i know he is official field advisor.

We don't need any "proof".
His e-mail address will work just fine.

By the way, what does the "official(!) field advisor" mean considering his specialty? And what is his specialty anyway - counter-terrorism; recon + diversions; psyops; etc.??

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Herrmannek]

By the way, what does the "official(!) field advisor" mean considering his specialty? And what is his specialty anyway - counter-terrorism; recon + diversions; psyops; etc.??

16 OBr SpN

I know your speciality....Bull ****ing....Just kiding :)...Couldn't resist...Sorry...

[Herrmannek]

I think mr.Kossak is entertainment advisor, you have so weak sense of humor that you need foreginers to do that part of training :)

[16 OBr SpN]

P.S. (Texan)
...so You say there were no SF in Polish military before 1991?
Interesting...
What about 48th,56th, and 62th special kompanies?
They were disformed in 1990-today 1st Special Regiment continues their work.
And NAVY SF unit Formoza was found in '70s (as far as I know).
Get real...

The first "official" year of birth of Russian spetsnaz is 1951. Spetsnaz GRU was already in Poland during 1960's. Black Sea naval spetsnaz (6th naval recon group) was also a part of Northern group of spetsnaz GRU and was created in 1953.

Question is - who trained whom. :)

[Herrmannek]

P.S. (Texan)
...so You say there were no SF in Polish military before 1991?
Interesting...
What about 48th,56th, and 62th special kompanies?
They were disformed in 1990-today 1st Special Regiment continues their work.
And NAVY SF unit Formoza was found in '70s (as far as I know).
Get real...

The first "official" year of birth of Russian spetsnaz is 1951. While spetsnaz GRU was already in Poland during 1960's. Black Sea navy spetsnaz (6th sea recon group) was also a part of Northern group of spetsnaz GRU and was created in 1953.

Question is - who trained whom. :)

Now serious. Heard about Cicho-Ciemni(Silent&Fade/Dark), Polish commando trained in England in WWII(Demolition,hand to hand, shoting, tactics, conspiracy, parachuting, and all other things needed by special purpose unit), GROM is continuation of that unit.

[16 OBr SpN]

P.S. (Texan)
...so You say there were no SF in Polish military before 1991?
Interesting...
What about 48th,56th, and 62th special kompanies?
They were disformed in 1990-today 1st Special Regiment continues their work.
And NAVY SF unit Formoza was found in '70s (as far as I know).
Get real...

The first "official" year of birth of Russian spetsnaz is 1951. While spetsnaz GRU was already in Poland during 1960's. Black Sea navy spetsnaz (6th sea recon group) was also a part of Northern group of spetsnaz GRU and was created in 1953.

Question is - who trained whom. :)

Now serious. Heard about Cicho-Ciemni(Silent&Fade/Dark), Polish commando trained in England in WWII(Demolition,hand to hand, shoting, tactics, conspiracy, parachuting, and all other things needed by special purpose unit), GROM is continuation of that unit.

Tell me first of all what does "continuation" mean in your context?
If I understand you correctly, almost 50 years of "pause" in training, truly contributes to proficiency of a unit? :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[tony6]

What's Your major mulfunction 16 OBr SpN?
Didn't Your mummmy and daddy show You enough attenttion when You were a child?? ("FMJ"-I couldn't resist:)

Made up my mind? Why? Do You see any contradiction here?
Kossek spent couple of months in Russia training soldiers-that's it.
He was there few times to run those training courses.
Do I have to spell it to You?? HE DON"T LIVE IN RUSSIA.

As for Polish special forces in WWII-except there was also special commando unit trained in Great Britain (part of the multinational commsando units).

[tony6]

P.S.
As for Russian SF- Dubrovka and Budionnowsk is enough for me.
Dubrovka: 140 civilians killed.
Buionnowsk: 100? Anybody bothered to count bodies?

Great actions, indeed!
I thank Lord that I don't live in Russia!

[Russian Texan]

As for "Dubrovka" there was plenty discussions on this board about it so do your search.

"Budenovsk" WOW, and how much do you think you know about what happened overthere? I'd like to hear your version and meanwhile you are at it, why don't you explain me what happened in Pervomaisk too.


Tony, just wondering how old are you? I'm thinking either you are in you teens or your hatred for Russia runs very deep. It is understandable, being a Russian colony for several hundred years and all that....but don't you think it is time to get over it. I understand that some poles dislike Russia for it's actions during WW2 but it was a direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic...
As one guy said:"For giving us Dzerjinskij alone, Poland should be burned to the ground."
BTW if you can read russian, here is the link http://www.vrazvedka.ru/stdcgi/forum.php?forumid=1&view=3&thread=1809&page=0


To 16 OBr SpN
Добро пожаловать на форум. Если не секрет, все-таки столько лет прошло :) , в какие года служили и что думаете о теперешней ситуации в Афганистане?

[Argo AdAm]

Some info about Marcin Kossek:
He served in army in the 6 Brygada Desantowo- Szturmowa ("The 6th Airborne-Assault Brigade") and next he was a policeman in one of the police SWAT style special units called in Poland "SPAT" - Samodzielny (independent) Podododział/Pluton (unit/section/platoon) Anty-Terrorystyczny (counter-terrorist). Once he took part in international police shotting competition in Germany and everyone there were very impressed by that what he showed. Since then, when he left police he started to be invited by various people from special and non-special units to show his skills on their excercises and to train with them. His first contact with Russian "Alpha" was few years ago when he was in Belarus on local CT units excercises, there were also people from Russian special units, and later they started to invited him on their trenings. He quite often visits Russia, he has a friends among Russian spetsnaz. He was on the last selection to "Vitiaz" and it's rumored that Russian even hoisted Polish flag in their base by that opportunity.
Kossek trains/trained many soldiers and policemen from guard/close protection units, f.e. some american policemans, Australian and others. He is also a chief of bodyguards of Polish biznesman Gudzowaty (very, very rich man).
In Poland now he trains some police units and he is a general advisor of unit in our military police (gendarmerie) called Wydział Ochrony Specialnej Żandarmerii Wojskowej ("Military Police's Section of Special Protection"), its main task is close protection for gov. and army vip's but not only. Guys from this unit are probably now protecting Polish Prime Minister visiting our forces in Iraq.

He is a little anigmatical person and seems to have a talent for his job.


BTW i heard that military is making another SF group about 100men strong but more like CT and bodyguard unit than strike.
As for Polish new SF unit-it will be part of Zandarmeria Wojskowa (kind of Military Police). Teams A+B=100 men.
Team A:their taks will be VIP protecting (chief of staff. minister of defense).
Team B: combat team, CQB, neutralizing/arresting armed hostiles.
The unit will be found on january 2004.
Mr. Kossek will be responsible for training&equipment.

It's a misunderstanding, b/c it is not new unit, this section - "Wydział Ochrony Specialnej Żandarmerii Wojskowej" have existed for years and it's only reorganized now. BTW few hours ago in Polish TVN24 television there were some TV pics shows their training and M. Kossek was showed there also.

[Herrmannek]

Tell me first of all what does "continuation" mean in your context?
If I understand you correctly, almost 50 years of "pause" in training, truly contributes to proficiency of a unit? :)

They were well dried and salted, After 50 years still like new. :)

[tony6]

I don't hate Russians and I have nothing against Russia as long as they don't attack us from behind like they used to do).
So You say that Your very "brave" action on 17th september 1939 was "direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic... "
Jeeeez, man!
That's a most ri****ilous **** I heard lately!
Have You ever been or a while in lunatic asylum or something?
...cos there something wrong with Your sanity.

Listen man-I have enough of this bull**** conversation-it leads to nowhere.
If You really think that "Russia actions during WW2 but it was a direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic" it's only Your problem.

BTW-yes, I can read Russian but I'm not gonna get involve in this conversation anymore. It's pointless. Have fun, kid.

[Herrmannek]

I don't hate Russians and I have nothing against Russia as long as they don't attack us from behind like they used to do).
So You say that Your very "brave" action on 17th september 1939 was "direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic... "
Jeeeez, man!
That's a most ri****ilous **** I heard lately!
Have You ever been or a while in lunatic asylum or something?
...cos there something wrong with Your sanity.

Listen man-I have enough of this bull**** conversation-it leads to nowhere.
If You really think that "Russia actions during WW2 but it was a direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic" it's only Your problem.

BTW-yes, I can read Russian but I'm not gonna get involve in this conversation anymore. It's pointless. Have fun, kid.

To Tony6:
Nie ma co się denerwować ani dumą unosić :). To forum w 2/4 jest zrobione z Krowiej Kupy, zwłaszcza w topicach w których strony czują do siebie "sentyment". A propo konsekwencji naszych akcji to mają "rację". Bo jeśli byśmy się nie obronili/ew. nie bronili w Wojnie Polsko-Bolszewickiej to by nie było nas po co atakować podzczas DWŚ, chyba żebyśmy znowu jakieś powstanie upichcili :)
Zdrówko :)

[Russian Texan]

I actually was refering to the Warsaw uprising when Soviets halted their advance for several days so Germans could put it down. It was a direct order from Stalin and modern day russian historians do agree that it was a punitive action.

But I do agree with you on one thing, you shouldn't get involved into conversation about subject matters that you have no clue about. Have you noticed how we started with Mr. Kossek being an official advisor to Russian SF and a recipient of the Rus. medal but in the end it all came down to him coming over to Russia to visit his buddies and firing off some rounds with spetsnaz guys...
You know there are some guys from AK47.net who went to Russia last summer and also had some drinks and fired off some rounds with spetsnaz and even met Michail Kalashnikov and Victor Kalashnikov (Bizon). Geee...I guess they are SF advisors too :roll:
Here are some pics and links

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/spets2.jpg
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=c3a611384286141f259707c0c7baf7fa&threadid=146247
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=c3a611384286141f259707c0c7baf7fa&threadid=144607
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=c3a611384286141f259707c0c7baf7fa&threadid=144594
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=c3a611384286141f259707c0c7baf7fa&threadid=132975


You see Tony, usually people who participate in conversations either have something to contribute or they listen and since you are doing none of the above - please stay out of it.

[perdurabo]

ojejciu tak jak napisałem ta dyskusja z ruskimi jest bezsensu spytam sie zobaczymy co dostane i wyśle choć to pewnie nic niepomoże to zakute pały :( (normal Polish cheat-chat ... :P )
я пaнeмaю пa pycки a Tы пaнeмaeшь пa пoльcки? :P
Sorry for my russian i speak very weak and to read some profesional text i need hours for one line but it's improving :) and
BTW czy ktoś wie jak uzyskać bukwy (cyrylice) na klawiaturze z polskimi znakami ustawionymi? (i'm asking here if somebody knows how to write in cyrylica on QWERTY keybord)

[Russian Texan]

I'm sorry, unfortunatelly I don't speak polish but I'm a good listener :)

[REMOV]

I understand that some poles dislike Russia for it's actions during WW2 but it was a direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic...In fact, it's not true. Soviet Union (after 1917) has the same politics like Russian Empire and didn't recognize Poland as independent country but as a part of Russia (Lenin recognize Poland as a independent country after Riga Pact in 1920 AFTER the war). Poles didn't help Bolsheviks nor White Russian Warlords (they have the same attitude to the Polish independence) but only fought their freedom. So in 1919-1920 two countries clashed each other, and that time Russia lost. In 1939 Russia (Soviet Union) not only made treacherous attack from behind but also broken non-aggresion Pact (Signed in 25 July 1932 in Moscow for 3 years, and re-signed and extended in 1934 for - 10 YEARS). So don't tell me about direct consequences because it shows your of ingnorance of history. Pacta sunt servanda.

After all, today is Poland great national holiday - The Independence Day (11 XI 1918 Poland after 123 years of German, Russian and Austrian annexation proclaim independence).

[Russian Texan]

From what I have learned over the years, the same events are portrayed and interpreted in complitely different ways and especially in opposing countries. So I would imagine the history class in a polish school would be somewhat different from the one in russian. The way it was taught in USSR - pretty much all through out the history Poland was taking advantage of Russia anytime the opportunity presented itself (I'm talking about all of those invasions and an attempt to install one of their own as a king in Russia), so naturally payback is a bitch... I just would like to clarify - I'm not a historian and only recollecting what was taught to me many years ago. But here is the rough translation of what some russians think:

[
color=black]"Shouldn't have helped to arrange Russian revolution. The same goes to Checs, Latvians, Estonians, Hungarians, Chinese and other rubbish: first they actively helped to do the revolution, and then began to take offence, that this revolution is comming up to them. Historical justice. Who helped to destroy Russian empire, on those the punishing sword of proletariat was lowered. At the same time Frenchmen, Dutchs, Swedes, the Austrians, Italians did not participate - and were spared from socialism."[/color]

[Maciek]

So Lenin is our fault
:lol:

[perdurabo]

RT i've read this site of your cheat chat with your friends and they said nothing about case :) you started bashing Poland about their complex of small land and other stuff :] yes i know we are pain in russian ass we created lenin and you are so poor now :)so if you realy have friends in russian CT (not rangers or so but CounterTerrorist units)groups ask them aha this medal was about september-octomber there was a big Polish flag and stuff :)

[Russian Texan]

#1 I don't have any friends in Alfa(even if I did they wouldn't admit so :) )
#2 If you read the board, what were the first two replies?
#3 And where did you see bashing in there? It was simply relaying conversation that we had here.

BTW since you can speak russian you have the benefit of asking question overthere by yourself :)

[Argo AdAm]

[...about Poland]It is understandable, being a Russian colony for several hundred years and all that....but don't you think it is time to get over it.
What? How many years? Let me give you one small history lesson. :backhand: :)


"Prussia, Russia, and Austria all annexed parts of Poland in 1772. A small Polish state was left at the mercy of its enemies. In 1793 Poland was further partitioned among the three powers. The patriot Thaddeus Kosciusko [later he fought for American freedom] led a peasant army in a national insurrection against the Russians. In 1795 Poland's last remaining territory was occupied by the three partitioning powers. Many Poles fled the country. In 1807 Napoleon supported the formation of a small and weak Polish state, but after Napoleon's defeat by Russia the Russians returned.

Czar Alexander I of Russia permitted the existence of a Russian-controlled Polish kingdom. An uprising of the Poles in 1830 was put down by the Russians, who then began a period of suppression of Polish culture and institutions. In 1863 another insurrection resulted in the total extinction of Poland as a separate political unit. During World War I Russia fought Austria and Germany, often on Polish territory, and during this time the population suffered greatly. The Polish leaders, however, gained the support of the Allies, especially France, and in 1918 an independent Poland again appeared with Jozef Pilsudski as head of state. The pianist Ignacy Paderewski became prime minister. - http://www.polandonline.com/history.html"
That's why we in Poland understand Chechen fighters (exluding terrorist, of course).


I understand that some poles dislike Russia for it's actions during WW2 but it was a direct consequence of Polish actions and policies towards young Soviet republic...
It's not exactly that. In Russia there are two different things that shows Russia as a country: people and authorities. In Poland we know (distinguish?) one from another and many Poles dislike Russian governments but at the same time the same Poles really like Russian people.
Why don't we like Russian authorities? Because they have always thoght that one man's life means nothing, only the masses are important and that Russia must be empire forever. This way of thinking was base for Russian Empire for many hundred years, then for Soviet Union and now is for that what is happening in Russia nowadays (Kursk, Dubrovka, all things in Chechenya).

I like Russian and I really sympathize for them that they live in country ruled by men who doesn't care about their own people, f.e. Jelcyn, Putin and many others. Only hope for Russian is in future, I think, maybe "Jabloko" (An Apple) will win someday and will do something?

For Poles very ridiculous thing in Russia is why some Russian still can keep alive Stalin's and other communist bandits's memory, regardless of that they murdered many people, including Russians. :(

For everyone, please stop argue. Peace to You :hug:

[perdurabo]

ah ah :cantbeli: firs was something like best wishes to you next that Alfa didnt operate in Poland then you said that we(poles) calim blahblah blah and you started with polish complex and your friends started to hug you(it's not small land complex but ... and next one starts with dzierżyński blahblah :) it's so small fotns and i'm biggener in russian so i might something lost :]

[Herrmannek]

Let's make things straight.
If Poland and Russia will go to War, we will probaly fight on oposite sites. But we aren't at war and "fighting in interent is like special olimpics, even if you win you are still retardeed" so cease fire.

We should ask few questions first

#1 If its normal for Special Units(In this case Russian) to be train by/hire/ask/use foregin specialists/advisors?

Can't say anything about Russians, but other Special Units to stay in main stream and to learn new "SOF trends and fashions" often train together, exchenge experiencces and such?

#2 If mr.Kossak is real specialist?

In Poland he is officialy admited and well known specialist and in others posts you can read he is even internationaly recognised.


So if you add 2 to 2 you get 5....no...wait....4. I mean it's not immposible that Pole were learning Russians something new or even thay were learning each other new things.

#3 About that medal

Dunno know, Just heard he got one from Russians

[Russian Texan]

Argo Adam, Thank you for the very educational post, like I have said before I didn't know much about russian-polish history, now I do :)

The reason leaders like you have mentioned emerge is the country itself and the mentality of people who populate it. I don't want to get really deep into it but Russians have to have a strong (sometimes violent leader) because they are not like western people that obey rules, it is in the russian blood to look for the way to beat the system... If you look at the history, Russia's had its greatest moments when it was ruled by those who qualify as tyrants in the west. It still amazes me to this day how people are trying to judge Russia's economy, military, society's values, mentality, etc based on their western views, believes and standarts. Russia inherited Byzantian empires culture and then added asian, european and arab flavors to it - it creates very explosive and hard to control mix.
You have mentioned "Jabloko" - they never had, do or will have support of the general populus in Russia because they are weak... I don't remember exactly the number bnut they have barely made it through minimum percentage requirements during the last election and probably won't make during next. It is that just nobody cares abou them.

As for comparison of Poland and Chechnya, you are so off on this one. Poland is an independent country that is peacefuly co-existing with its neighbors. Chechnay is completely different story, I have posted it before but here it is again:
The first Chechen war started because of the money (it is too difficult to explain to someone who is not familiar with russian politics of '90s and things like "oligarhs", "elczin family", "military mafia", "kremlin's mafia", etc.) It was much more complicated than what you might have heard or seen in the western media. Basically Chechen republic was spinning out of control since the dissolvement of the USSR. In a matter of a couple of years it became a criminal state which solely depended on money from the various criminal activities. On top of all that there was complete genocide against russian population in Chechnya: people were killed, tortured, literary kicked out of their homes and apartments just because they were russian. However none of that bothered russian government untill chechens decided to stop paying off to corrupt officials and financial intrests of certain companies and individuals were affected. At the same time things in Chechnya got so bad and out of control it became impossible to cover up regardless of the sizes of bribes. For example: there were pension and salary money delivered to Chechnya by the "Menatep" bank which was connected to the "Elzins Family". Later that night a group of heavily armed people blew up the doors of the state bank in Grozny, killed all the guards and disappeared with the money (all of it happened right next to the ministry of internal affairs building). There also were occasions when russian officials were kidnaped or killed while being in Chechnya. To make a long story short Russian government orders its troops to "restore constitutional order" in the republic of Chechnya. What followed is just too difficult to explain and gets my blood boiling. Basically it was the war of mafias where lives of Russian soldiers were betrayed, sold and exchanged for money and political points. You ask any officer in the Russian army and he will tell you that if it was left up to them, Chechnya would be pacified in the matter of days. But when your generals and politicians sell military maps, call signs, radio frequencies, supply routs, minefield locations, time of the attack/operation and exact number of troops/weapons that will take part in it, there is not much you can do... There also were several occasions when cease fires were called, by the russian politicians ofcourse, at the very right time for Chechens, every time going gets tough for them there is cease fire so they can rearm, regroup and heal wounded. What made the situation worse was the fact that a lot of chechens served in the Soviet military and knew all the strenghts, weaknesses and tactics. Anyways when I remember first Chechen war my blood boils, not because of chechen crimes against russians but because of kremlin's against its own people.
The second Chechen war was direct cosequence of the first one. After Russian troops left now independent Chechnya, it became a breeding ground for some of the worst scum this planet has ever known.All of the criminal activities quadrupled, no one was working, multiple warlords emerged, etc. To simply put it - region sled into complete chaos and it was bound to overspil. And it did when chechen religious fanatics "wahhabists" decided to annex neighboring republic of Russian Dagestan through the invasion, only this time Chechens weren't alone, they had their own "coalition" of international mercenaries. Then the history repeated itself although corruption and betrayalls were on the much smaller scale due to the change in leadership (Putin is an honest guy with the good intentions but there is no way one person can control Russia unless its ofcourse Stalin or Ivan the Terrible) Now Russia is dealing with the same situation and type of warfare as US is experincing in Iraq except it is much, much, much, much worse. This is extremely simplified and condensed version of what is going on over there. If you would like to better understand it, you'd have to spend some time studying the history of that region, Russia was having roblems with Chechnya for the last 300 years. A lot of it is chechens mentality: it is shamefull for a real Chechen men work, "Chechen men are born to be warriors not carpenters, bakers and shepards". You can't build a civilized society with that kind of attitude.


Right now things are relatively quiet overthere but most people agree that "3rd Chechen war" is inevidable...

BTW we weren't having an argument just an opinion exchange :)

[Russian Texan]

Let's make things straight.
If Poland and Russia will go to War, we will probaly fight on oposite sites. But we aren't at war and "fighting in interent is like special olimpics, even if you win you are still retardeed" so cease fire.

We should ask few questions first

#1 If its normal for Special Units(In this case Russian) to be train by/hire/ask/use foregin specialists/advisors?

Can't say anything about Russians, but other Special Units to stay in main stream and to learn new "SOF trends and fashions" often train together, exchenge experiencces and such?

#2 If mr.Kossak is real specialist?

In Poland he is officialy admited and well known specialist and in others posts you can read he is even internationaly recognised.


So if you add 2 to 2 you get 5....no...wait....4. I mean it's not immposible that Pole were learning Russians something new or even thay were learning each other new things.

#3 About that medal

Dunno know, Just heard he got one from Russians

Exactly, that what I have been advocating from the very start of this arguement. Ofcourse they could have trained together, had a couple of drinks and may be even raised a flag as a joke. He could be even given a medal also, I used to know a guy who was a waiter for russian party elite and was given a medal by one of the cosmonauts and even showed it to me.
Joint CT training could have easily happened in the modern day Russia. So it becomes very believable situation once you remove statements like "being awarded by the Russian government right after Dubrovka", "trained Alfa and other spetsnaz units","local newspaper", etc.

As for inviting foringers to train spetsnaz - it's just complete nonsense for two simple reasons:
Spetsnaz tactics and tools are different from the ones used in the west
And the biggest would be the experience
Since the end of WW2Soviet/Russian military was involved, as was discovered recently, into almost all of the large/small/local conflicts (South America, Africa, Asia, etc)arount the globe, well I guess they haven't been to Australia but who knows :) in one way or another: either officially or unofficially through the direct military involvement or so called "advisors".

Who can teach them and what are they going to teach them?

[Herrmannek]

Spetsnaz tactics and tools are different from the ones used in the west

You must remeber that Poles were learning russian tactics for over 45 years . In russian military schools with Russians and training with them manouvres on russian prooving grounds :). And this is maybe reason why they asked Pole for help. He probably knew russian realia,have acces to western tactics(or whatever else if he wasn't learning tactics), so he know what and how teach or imporove.




And the biggest would be the experience
Since the end of WW2Soviet/Russian military was involved, as was discovered recently, into almost all of the large/small/local conflicts (South America, Africa, Asia, etc)arount the globe
Poles were also involved in that conflicts, not officialy of corse, not for russian scale but Poles were in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Close East and many other places.

[tony6]

Pride, my friend, is a good thing but in moderate portion...
I know that it's very hard for You to even think that some kind of Polish buddy could trained Your fancy Alfa unit but it's a true. Face it:)

...sorry-I was to stay quiet!
Milczenie jest zlotem-like we say in Poland:) (silence is worth of gold)
so I'm outta here!

[Scrim]

There is a great article all about GROM in this months SOF.
And I want to take this Veterans Day to thank you Poles for always being our good friends.

[Russian Texan]

I think it is quiet reverse case when it comes to pride ;) You see Russia doesn't need to prove anything to anyone, it is in the league of its own...
Poland on other hand would like to be meaningfull and part of something big hence Iraq involvement.

Read up on the history of Alfa and their success rate and you'll see what I mean by experience. At this point I have strong impression that you have no clue what Alfa is, what is all about, part of what structure it is and who is it made out of. I think that the onlyt thing that you know is the name of the group and that is it. Like I have said before: Participate in a conversation only if you have something to add or willing to listen...

BTW I was somewhat dissapointed in Alfa after going through first hand accounts of what have happened in Pervomaisk. They have done nothing when one squad of army spetsnaz had to stand up to 200+ chechens.

[perdurabo]

Scrim it's our independence day:D woot woot beutifull withe-red flag hangs from my balcony :D
i'm proud of my country:D

[tony6]

Honestly-I don't give a **** of what Alfa is.
I just know that mr. Kossek was one of the guys who trained them and I posted this-and You & Your fellow-camrades Russians overreacted histericly.
Period.
And Perdurabo-I was at he Pilsudski square to watch the ceremony-those cannons gunshots impress me every time:)

[Herrmannek]

Te Warszawiak nie bądź taki mądry :).

[perdurabo]

we in Jelenie Góra had only small ceremony normal orchestra concert and small parade nothing special:( We now don't have military units in our city they closed it few years ago:( so nothing big in here:( but ive heard that in wrocław where niece parade with cavalery training on city squere (reenactors not military)
As for russian budies we should stay budies on harm feelings to you (otherwise i wouldn't learn your language and traying to go to russia on hollidays) but i know what i know:) belive me about Kossek he is realy great guy with imperssive skills,CT is his passion.

[Russian Texan]

Honestly-I don't give a **** of what Alfa is.
I just know that mr. Kossek was one of the guys who trained them and I posted this-and You & Your fellow-camrades Russians overreacted histericly.
Period.
And Perdurabo-I was at he Pilsudski square to watch the ceremony-those cannons gunshots impress me every time:)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Crybabby

[tony6]

Herrmanek (Jesus-what kind of nick it is?:): I only study in Warsaw:)
I come from south of Poland -Bielsko-Biala.
18th Air Assault Batalion is quartering there. Two of my buddies from secondary-school serve there as professional soldiers-they should be sergeants by now. They were in Kosovo.
They are going to Iraq on january.
A friend of my is also a captain in 25th Air Cavalry Brigade and he is now in Iraq. He was promoted to captain lately and in december this year he will be 26!!!
He is good, isn't he?

[Herrmannek]

Herrmanek (Jesus-what kind of nick it is?:)
I ussualy don't want reveal my surname, and friends ussualy call me
herman-it is a prefix of my surname, but it is ussualy taken by someone else.
herrmann it is a good variation, but still very popular, so I use
herrmannek its ussualy free & still easy to remeber.

[16 OBr SpN]

Honestly-I don't give a **** of what Alfa is.
I just know that mr. Kossek was one of the guys who trained them and I posted this-and You & Your fellow-camrades Russians overreacted histericly.
Period.
And Perdurabo-I was at he Pilsudski square to watch the ceremony-those cannons gunshots impress me every time:)

Hi Tony,

You should also be ready to back your claim of that "fact". Otherwise your posts lose credibility. Just that "you just know" doesn't mean anything to me and any other person who would look for a proof.
For example, I know stuff about Russian SF that none of you guys know, but I won't say it, because I won't be able to officially prove it, and besides I can't, for another 50 years.

Unlike you who attacked our SF, I wasn't attacking Polish SF and questionning their skills. I only wanted for you guys to prove your words by answering my specific questions. Where is histeria in that? :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Herrmannek]

Now not so serious:


You should also be ready to back your claim of that "fact". Otherwise your posts lose credibility. Just that "you just know" doesn't mean anything to me and any other person who would look for a proof.


Man if you find way to prove something over internet you are reach man, and I tell you that as computer science student*. :)



For example, I know stuff about Russian SF that none of you guys know, but I won't say it, because I won't be able to officially prove it, and besides I can't, for another 50 years.

Beter not reveal those Facts, they can hang you for that :)




Unlike you who attacked our SF, I wasn't attacking Polish SF and questionning their skills. I only wanted for you guys to prove your words by answering my specific questions. Where is histeria in that? :)


Hey you started with minority complex :), and we followed with your Bad SF complex :)


*Simple prove of that Fact I live to reader as home excersise :) .

[16 OBr SpN]

Let's make things straight.
If Poland and Russia will go to War, we will probaly fight on oposite sites. But we aren't at war and "fighting in interent is like special olimpics, even if you win you are still retardeed" so cease fire.

We should ask few questions first

#1 If its normal for Special Units(In this case Russian) to be train by/hire/ask/use foregin specialists/advisors?

Can't say anything about Russians, but other Special Units to stay in main stream and to learn new "SOF trends and fashions" often train together, exchenge experiencces and such?

#2 If mr.Kossak is real specialist?

In Poland he is officialy admited and well known specialist and in others posts you can read he is even internationaly recognised.


So if you add 2 to 2 you get 5....no...wait....4. I mean it's not immposible that Pole were learning Russians something new or even thay were learning each other new things.

#3 About that medal

Dunno know, Just heard he got one from Russians

#1. Depends on what kind of training and what units you are talking about. If that's a CT unit, then I guess it's something normal. I didn't serve in CT unit, therefore I don't know for sure. I served in a different unit with the goals being opposite to CT. ;)
But being a long-term member of a Russian military machine, I can say that training (in it's TRUE meaning) with NATO forces is impossible. Yes they can get together to shoot some guns; play soccer; but NEVER to actually train on different battle scenarios.

#2. The guy can be recognized in each and every country on the face of this planet. But that doesn't make him an "advisor" to Russian SF. The term "advisor" itself is totally impossible due to the nature of the Russian spetsnaz and our doctrine. You guys don't know it, otherwise wouldn't post this nonsense.

#3. You see, I don't know of ANY Polish "advisor" receiving a medal too. :)
As for practical help from foreignors during tragic events at Dubrovka, I know that the Germans, Brits and Americans shared their intel. That's it.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

To 16 OBr SpN
Добро пожаловать на форум. Если не секрет, все-таки столько лет прошло :) , в какие года служили и что думаете о теперешней ситуации в Афганистане?

Здравствуйте,

Служил с 83 и до конца войны в Афгане. Потом натаскивал пацанов с разведроты 201-й дивизии. Поучаствовал в 1-й Чеченской. Большего сказать не могу. Извиняюсь.

Ситуация в полной заднице. Как воевали, так и воюют. НАТОвцы из баз не вылезают, особенно в проблемных регионах. Духи наркоту растят по черному. Так что просвета там нет и наврядли будет. Американцы хотят построить трубопровод вот и вынуждены задницу целовать всем более-менее серьезным полевым командирам. Те покупают на эти деньги оружие. Простой народ как голодал, так и голодует.

С уважением,
16 ОБр СпН

[perdurabo]

#1. Depends on what kind of training and what units you are talking about. If that's a CT unit, then I guess it's something normal. I didn't serve in CT unit, therefore I don't know for sure. I served in a different unit with the goals being opposite to CT. ;)
But being a long-term member of a Russian military machine, I can say that training (in it's TRUE meaning) with NATO forces is impossible. Yes they can get together to shoot some guns; play soccer; but NEVER to actually train on different battle scenarios.

#2. The guy can be recognized in each and every country on the face of this planet. But that doesn't make him an "advisor" to Russian SF. The term "advisor" itself is totally impossible due to the nature of the Russian spetsnaz and our doctrine. You guys don't know it, otherwise wouldn't post this nonsense.

#3. You see, I don't know of ANY Polish "advisor" receiving a medal too. :)
As for practical help from foreignors during tragic events at Dubrovka, I know that the Germans, Brits and Americans shared their intel. That's it.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN
1. Yes only CT I said this one clearlyand he isn't related with NATO troops he is CIVILIAN NOW
2.in CT world he is recognizable, and i said about russian CT units not diversion one(i don't recognize them all russians look for me the same)
3. not in dubrovka but after he was in poland when dubrovka happend but he trained those guys he know them and afther he was on Vitiaz training(selection of lower officers or smth like that from 94 passes 4men) he got medal and stuff:) prabably in few years you will hear about Kossek-Vitiaz (K-V) method of shooting training

And post me a line where i attacked your superduper SF units?:) i know that you have them and that they are still in top ten.

[Herrmannek]

#1. Depends on what kind of training and what units you are talking about. If that's a CT unit, then I guess it's something normal. I didn't serve in CT unit, therefore I don't know for sure. I served in a different unit with the goals being opposite to CT. ;)
But being a long-term member of a Russian military machine, I can say that training (in it's TRUE meaning) with NATO forces is impossible. Yes they can get together to shoot some guns; play soccer; but NEVER to actually train on different battle scenarios.

#2. The guy can be recognized in each and every country on the face of this planet. But that doesn't make him an "advisor" to Russian SF. The term "advisor" itself is totally impossible due to the nature of the Russian spetsnaz and our doctrine. You guys don't know it, otherwise wouldn't post this nonsense.

#3. You see, I don't know of ANY Polish "advisor" receiving a medal too. :)
As for practical help from foreignors during tragic events at Dubrovka, I know that the Germans, Brits and Americans shared their intel. That's it.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

I don't see any contradiction here with my or previous statements. Kossak is CT specialist, You said that CT units are "open to new ideas", I think no one directly linked Kossak with Dubrovka so all is in perfect order :).
Maybe "advisior" isn't proper word, don't know in what context russian army use that term, maybe this word have specific meaning and as you said I don't know spetsnaz doctrine.
But few things are almost sure:
#1 He was in Russia
#2 He got medal(wich origins stil remains uknown)
#3 He is CT specialist
#4 It's common practice to share experiences amonst CT units

[perdurabo]

To 16 OBr SpN
Добро пожаловать на форум. Если не секрет, все-таки столько лет прошло :) , в какие года служили и что думаете о теперешней ситуации в Афганистане?

Здравствуйте,

Служил с 83 и до конца войны в Афгане. Потом натаскивал пацанов с разведроты 201-й дивизии. Поучаствовал в 1-й Чеченской. Большего сказать не могу. Извиняюсь.

Ситуация в полной заднице. Как воевали, так и воюют. НАТОвцы из баз не вылезают, особенно в проблемных регионах. Духи наркоту растят по черному. Так что просвета там нет и наврядли будет. Американцы хотят построить трубопровод вот и вынуждены задницу целовать всем более-менее серьезным полевым командирам. Те покупают на эти деньги оружие. Простой народ как голодал, так и голодует.

С уважением,
16 ОБр СпН
you know how to use a forum private message?:) or you just want to show how big specialist you are?:) (btw immpresive afgan war...) but it's englishlanguage forum imagine what would happen when germans would talk in german italians in italian and other.... i can understand few but i don't belive that everyone would:] so in forum write in english or post him private message

[16 OBr SpN]

I don't see any contradiction here with my or previous statements. Kossak is CT specialist, You said that CT units are "open to new ideas", I think no one directly linked Kossak with Dubrovka so all is in perfect order :).
Maybe "advisior" isn't proper word, don't know in what context russian army use that term, maybe this word have specific meaning and as you said I don't know spetsnaz doctrine.
But few things are almost sure:
#1 He was in Russia
#2 He got medal(wich origins stil remains uknown)
#3 He is CT specialist
#4 It's common practice to share experiences amonst CT units

Here is a portion of the post by tony6:
Well, Texan-although I know very little about this case it seems that I know more than You about Your own SF:)
As far as I know mr. Kossek was decorated by the Russian minister of defence (or interior) after the Dubrovka assault and now he is official advisor in the field of SF. He trained Alfa and some other unit soldiers.

This post definitely implies that Mr. Kossek had something to do with Dubrovka assault.
He couldn't have possibly train Alfa, because Alfa does their training 50% on their base (along with another unit), which is strictly off-limits to 99% of Russians, leave alone foreignors. The other 50% of their "training" goes on in Chechnya.

Later you guys shift the focus from "Alfa" to Vityaz'.

I especially loved this post by By ArgoAdam: :)
He was on the last selection to "Vitiaz" and it's rumored that Russian even hoisted Polish flag in their base by that opportunity.

You guys forgot to mention salutes and orchestras! rofl
My God, guys if you lie, try to lie more realistically.

The other one I loved was: Kossek-Vitiaz shooting style! :D
Can I ask you what kind of shooting style is that? I'm asking simply out of reasons of curiosity and professional knowledge. As far as I remember "Vitiaz" got its training from spetsnaz GRU's 22nd Brigade (located outside Moscow). WOW! A Polish instructor has become a competitor to GRU! :D

As for "advisor". It's not the word itself, but the context of a foreign advisor, which is totally alien to our military doctrine as a whole, and to spetsnaz in particular.

As for a medal he received. At least give me the name of the medal, and what does it say. Or ask him to give me at least one name of a soldier in "Vitiaz" who can confirm that Mr. Kossek was indeed an instructor.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Russian Texan]

I do apologize to all of my polish friends for the inconvinience but I find it highly unnatural to communicate with riussians in english and I will continue to do so unless told by the moderator otherwise, sorry guys :)

To 16 Oбр СпН

Отец моего друга был там же в середине 80-х, 22 обр СпН, Кондратенко фамилия, может слышали? Привез домой кучу сувениров и заразил меня романтикой. Вы меня извените пожалуйста, я знаю что многие побывавшие там не любят говорить, но меня очень интересует история войны в Чечне. Я здесь недавно выкладывал собственные соображения по поводу причин
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=69691&highlight=#69691, что вы об этом думаете? Мне бы так же было бы интересно узнать ваше мнение о книге Зарипова "Первомайка", если читали. Вы простите что так много вопросов сразу, но не каждуй день, пусть даже виртуально, встречаешь человека с таким опытом как ваш. Кстати, а чем вы сейчас занимаетесь, если не секрет, и откуда столь глубокое знание Английского, неужели в ГенШтабе так хорошо преподают. Заранее благодарен за ответы.

[tony6]

Scrim: I gotta see this newest SOF issue:)

[perdurabo]

voice from mr.Kossek:

Witam kolego, nie biore udzialu w takich koperkowych dyskusjach. Na temat mojej wspolpracy z wieloma panstwami ( rowniez z Rosją i grupami AT z tego kraju )wystarczajaco wiele bylo dokumentacji w mediach ( zarowno w prasie jak i VHS z zajec )rowniez nadanie mi odznaczenia przez dowodztwo rosyjskich AT. Zycze nadal owocnych dyskusji. A co do nowej jednostki to obecnie jest robiony nabor kadrowy do grup ochronnych i bojowych. Pozdrawiam.

can somebody translate to our rossian "friends"?

(pewnie oczywiście nieuwieżą w ani jedno słowo no bo my jesteśmy polaczki i kłamcy no ale takie są już ruskie zadufki)

[Russian Texan]

Why don't we just go with what 16 Obr Spn suggested: provide him with an e-mail address of Mr. Kossek and he will post their e-mail exchange here on the board. That would be the best proof and disperse all doubts about credibility of your statements.
Just wanted to add that I do appreciate Hermmanneks and perduardo sence of humor, and Remov's knowledgable inputs. On other hand Tony6, man you need to calm down and relax and introduce some humor to your life or you just might give yourself a heart attack.

[perdurabo]

In this post he said that he dosen't wan't to involve in nonsense cheat-chat because enough where in press and there was an VSH from excercizes also from giving him order by russian CT command.
so you can say whatever you want and i can say but it's pointless, and i don't have his e-mail nor i don't want to invade his privacy.(i'm only on the same polish forum with him)
(BTW i felt in this whole disccusion like an asshole whole discusion looked like who has bigger...)

[Red]

I am amazed at the proliferation of the Notion of special forces around the world.i bet even Tibet have special forces

[Russian Texan]

But the thing is that none of us except 16 Obr Spn can verify and cross check his information. Like he said, just provide the name of the medal or a name of someone from Vityaz. Whats so hard about it if he is who he says he is :)

And this conversation never was about who has bigger you know what. No one was trying to compare Polish Sf to the Russian ones - it's impossible and no one was trying to belittle Grom. It all started with the ridiculous, to anyone who has a clue, statement about Mr. Kossek being an advisor to the russian SF and having flag raised in his honor while being given a medal by the rus government or something like that. The way it looks right now is that Mr. Kossek was caught on BS and has nothing to answer with except general dismissive comments :)

[Red]

countries need to apply for licences to be able to get SF capability.

[Vytiambergas]

I read this forum and sumtimes it seems to me that only Polish SF "Grom" figts in Iraq :| ;)

[tony6]

Like I said: silence is worth of gold.
:)

[tony6]

Hey Texan: my life is full of alcohol (I'm drinkin' right now:) and humour-it's only You who don't see this, man!
:)
Peace to everyone!
****-if everyone on this planet drink alcohol it would be a lot more better place to live, wouldn't it?
:)

[tony6]

Rolling Stones rules, man!!!
(****! I'm realy drunk)

[Russian Texan]

No, you are really retarded but this has nothing to do with alcohol ;)

[tony6]

It depends on point of view:)

[16 OBr SpN]

OK guys I think all of us (although the Poles won't openly admit it) understand the case here, therefore I don't see any point in further "search of truth". :D

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

Russian Texan:

Please check PM.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

In this post he said that he dosen't wan't to involve in nonsense cheat-chat because enough where in press and there was an VSH from excercizes also from giving him order by russian CT command.
so you can say whatever you want and i can say but it's pointless, and i don't have his e-mail nor i don't want to invade his privacy.(i'm only on the same polish forum with him)
(BTW i felt in this whole disccusion like an asshole whole discusion looked like who has bigger...)

Last thing...

1) What press are we talking about? National Inquirer? :)

2) "giving him order by russian CT command" So if he was given orders, then he's not an instructor, he's a student actually. :)

3) I guess asking him "uncomfortable" questions is invasion of privacy? Wow! That's what I call a honest reasoning. :)

4) Do you mind giving me the address of that forum?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[perdurabo]

****, medal (order in Polish means medal)
yep i can give you http://forum.greendevils.pl/ , but you have to learn Polish first:)
End of this stiupid thread.

[tony6]

peace brothers!
:)

And to 16 OBr SpN (what kind of nickname is this?:) :
Sorry for my yesterday posts-I really smashed myself...
Alcohol is good but only in moderate portions:)

[Kingpin]

And to 16 OBr SpN (what kind of nickname is this?:)

Acronym for smth like 16th Detached Special Operations Brigade.
Simply Spetsnaz.

[Russian Texan]

And to 16 OBr SpN (what kind of nickname is this?:) :

"16 Otdel'naya brigada Special'nogo naznacheniya" or "16th Separate Brigade of Special Purpose" in english translation. For the most Russians no further explanation needed, as for the rest of you guys - he will explain if he wants to.

[Dmitri]

I read this forum and sumtimes it seems to me that only Polish SF "Grom" figts in Iraq :| ;)
Thank you, one can get an impression that GROM has won the whole war.


(f***! I'm realy drunk)that's something to be really proud of.
And Herrmanek, if you cry about russians posting in their language, please look at your own and your friends' posts.

Etot pol'skii loh navernoe uchil nashih kak igrat' of Kossaki(kozaki)-razboiniki... rofl

[tony6]

Texan-thx for the info.
Dmitri-being drunk is never a reasob to be proud-but sometimes it just happens:)

[Herrmannek]

And Herrmanek, if you cry about russians posting in their language, please look at your own and your friends' posts.

Why always me? I wasn't or don't remember I was crying beacause you were posting in your language. Once in other topic(VDV 2 ) I asked you to switch to english but this wasn't order (I wrote it in pseudo russian :) so I'm not sure how strong that please was). I have no influence on my polish firends, but I understood their posts where tips that you should use PersonalMessages(PM) for few posts long russian off topic chit-chats. Yes you are right I wrote one or maybe few more posts in polish, but they were(I hope that ) one sentence long very hard to translate to english phrases, but I'm sorry for them it will not happen again :).

[Dmitri]

Ops, sorry, :D I meant perdurabo, first he accused us of speaking russian, and than went on speaking polish... :|

[Herrmannek]

Ops, sorry, :D I meant perdurabo, first he accused us of speaking russian, and than went on speaking polish... :|

No problem mate :) .

[perdurabo]

Dimitri look i've asked R-T and SpN to use english but they didn't so i've just use Polish to show them why they should use PM or english (and i said that clearly)

[Dmitri]

Whatever, if you'll look on the tread, you'll see that polish was used way more, and than after only one post by 16 OBr SpN you started the mess, and put even more polish in here.. :cantbeli:

[Russian Texan]

Guys, relax it is really not an issue to argue about...
I am using the PM now though :)

[Argo AdAm]

Argo Adam, Thank you for the very educational post, like I have said before I didn't know much about russian-polish history, now I do :)You welcome and I thank you for your very interesting post. All that what you have written about typical Russian mentality is known in Poland and many Poles think the same. Poles as no one else can understand it because Poland has alawys been a land where the Western and Eastern worlds meet each other

[...]It still amazes me to this day how people are trying to judge Russia's economy, military, society's values, mentality, etc based on their western views, believes and standarts.[...]I agree, it's hard to compare Russia to any western style country, but well... I think some things such a human rights are in fact universal, beside differences in culture and other things. BTW I hate when politics shakes this theory while they are doing a biznes with China...

The second Chechen war was direct cosequence of the first one. After Russian troops left now independent Chechnya, it became a breeding ground for some of the worst scum this planet has ever known.All of the criminal activities quadrupled, no one was working, multiple warlords emerged, etc. To simply put it - region sled into complete chaos and it was bound to overspil.Yes I know that. I remember when I was hearing about what was happening in Chechenya after Russian left it I though that someone should call Chechens to order, but in my opinion it should't be Russians, because ex-occupants are not good peacemakers. Unfortunatelly Chechens made his homeland land of anarchy and lost their chance to win the freedom and to live with peace with Russians. They had some kind of independence and they loose it by their own stupidity.

If you would like to better understand it, you'd have to spend some time studying the history of that region, Russia was having roblems with Chechnya for the last 300 years.Yes, but aren't these problems on Russians own wishes? They conquered Chechenya these 300 years ago and since then they have been paying the price for trying to keep this country under their control. Russians are still strangers and occupants in Chechenya, no matter what they would like to think about it, because it's Chechens's homeland and will never be a part of Russia. Maybe you Russians don't like to find yourself as a aggressors but this is a naked truth.

A lot of it is chechens mentality: it is shamefull for a real Chechen men work, "Chechen men are born to be warriors not carpenters, bakers and shepards". You can't build a civilized society with that kind of attitude. Yes, I agree. This is ridiculous mentality typical for some of pride Kaukazian people, but some countries of this region, being former soviet republics, can somehow exist indepedenly, f.e. Georgia, Kazachstan. Maybe someday Chechens will learn how to do it (they have a lot to learn), so let's give them a chance. For the present, Chechens can't and don't be able to think about anything except fighting with Russians. This can be understood. What would you can think about if your homeland was occupaited by foreign army since many years, when they come without invitation to your home and you saw how they killed members of your familly saying that they doing it for your own good?
BTW I think it's not a proper topic to discuss about conflict in Chechnya, as you know there are better to do it in this forum.

[Russian Texan]

You are right. Indeed it all started when Russia decided to introduce itself to chechens but we can't go back several hundred years and change what have happened, we can only deal with the present moment. And in the present moment Chechnya can't be left alone or it will become another Afganistan just like after when USSR left it, only this time it is going to be inside the Russian territory and russians just can't afford that...

BTW is "Grom" still in Iraq and what do polish people think about their country being involved overthere?

[REMOV]

As for him "training" Alfa and other russian units - impossible because of how SOVIET/RUSSIAN MILITARY/MVD WORKS (...) Do you even know what spetsnaz is and what structure VITYAZ belongs to? Look it up and realize how stupid your statement is. One more little thing, usually special forces don't advertise their present training methods and people who train them, that should be a hint for you about credibility of the source. People get real.... You know Russian Texan, I find some more information about Mr. Kossek. Here we go:
http://www.sfd.pl/1/images/20031216155819.JPG
http://www.sfd.pl/1/images/20031216155853.JPG
There is Mr. Kossek among Vitez group members, the only Russian guy which face isn't blurred is Lt. Shielokhvostov (unfortunetly R.I.P. :().

... and with LAPD SWAT (check Mr. Kossek badge ;) ):
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/SWAT_LAPD.jpg
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/szkolenie_ze_SWAT.jpg
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/killing_house_grupa_diament.jpg
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/SWAT.jpg


Guess what this a special unit is? ;)
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/szturmowanie_pomieszcze__324_.jpg
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/szturm_na_poci__261_g_grupa_A.jpg
http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/szturm_na_autobus_A_-__322_adunek_na_okno.jpg


As for him "training" Alfa and other russian units - impossibleImpossible, right? So, its your miracle day! ... and despite of your opinion the Pole is training the Russian special forces. The world is changed, right? ;)

PS. Source: http://www.greendevils.pl/terroryzm/wywiad_z_mx/wywiad_z_mx.html

[Seoulstriker]

REMOV lays the smack down! woot woot woot

:hug:

remov, you're starting to scare me. :P

[tony6]

REMOV:
Bingo, man!
:)
Texan:
Do You still deny that Mr. Kossek trained Russian special units?

[wholagun]

Why isn't this guy training Polish Special ops teams.. Why do we always export our best people. ****.


remov, you're starting to scare me.
He's just begginging to sacre you now. He's scared the **** out of me long ago.

[Seoulstriker]

^^^ his gun knowledge is incredible but the details that he can show for one person... shocking.

[Dmitri]

Wow, look at that, he has an alfa badge! That really says a lot. Does he like it more than GROM or something? In any case, you make it sound like he just came and taught Alfa everything they know now, just like GROM won the Iraqi war. I am sure there are numerous exchanges btw. many countries for learning experiences, it is only people from low-esteem-countries that boast about **** like that.

[tony6]

Strange reaction...
Pride?
:)
REMOV just proved that guy in fact trained with Vitiaz and other sF units.
For all those who said it was bull****.
That's all.

[REMOV]

but the details that he can show for one person... shocking.Ekhm... I've never put here any classified informations, all datas are from public accessible sources.

[Seoulstriker]

but the details that he can show for one person... shocking.Ekhm... I've never put here any classified informations, all datas are from public accessible sources.

yeah, yeah, try to be humble. ;)

:hug:

[Russian Texan]

Remov, how do pictures above prove that he is or was training "Alfa"? Yes he is standing right next to some guys from "Vityaz" at some reception but that is it...
I have always said that is exactly what happened: he went over to Russia on some kind of cultural/military exchange trip, had couple of drinks with his Russian hosts and may be even fired coulple of shots on the range. These pictures do nothing but prove my point. Where are the pictures of Polish flag being raised, pictures of medal being given to him, etc? Remov, I start thinking that I have probably given you to much credit for your analytical abilities :lol:

Scroll through mine and 16 ObrSpN's posts on this topic and answer the questions that we have asked, provide as with proof and not some reception pictures. We have asked percise questions and it is only fair that we get percise answers...

BTW in the initial statement it said that he had trained "Alfa", now it is "Vityaz", so which one is it? :)

I do not have a problem with admitting that Mr. Kossek is involved in some Russian CT unit training, I just want to see some proof.

I have a picture of me sparring with 27-1 pro boxer, I can post it here and say that I am his trainer... you get my point.

[REMOV]

We have asked percise questions and it is only fair that we get percise answers...You know, I not intend to convice you of anything. In my opinion fight with someone's strong (almost religious) beliefs are sensless. I gave you facts and you repay me er... your theories, and personal feelings that 'no Pole can teach something Russians because of...'. Naturally you don't trust me, it's OK, but I would like to see your face when you read the information in some Russian newspaper.

So, from my point of view, putting an effort to convince you is worthless. But despite your feelings and without answering your "percise questions" the Russians still be trained by a Pole ;)

PS. One more thing - this guy is a private contractor (not in a government service), hired by Russian, and was not invited to, as you said, "exhange trips". So - using your own logic - think about the private man (accidentially the CT instructor) which Russians pay to eat the dinner and make some photos with him ;)

[Russian Texan]

Here are some very percise questions by 16 OBrSpn:

I have several questions to ask our Polish friends (since you are all too well informed); or maybe you could ask Mr. Kossek himself:

1) Which brigade was he located at during "training" of Russian SF?
2) Can he name at least one soldier from Russian SF who can confirm it? Name; rank and station.
3) What radio code was used to designate 'Alfa' during storming of Dubrovka? Since he trained them during those events, I'm sure he will answer those questions.
4) As for Mr. Kossek receiving a medal, that's something truly amazing! When exactly (date/month) did he receive the medal?



The guy can be recognized in each and every country on the face of this planet. But that doesn't make him an "advisor" to Russian SF. The term "advisor" itself is totally impossible due to the nature of the Russian spetsnaz and our doctrine. You guys don't know it, otherwise wouldn't post this nonsense.


He couldn't have possibly train Alfa, because Alfa does their training 50% on their base (along with another unit), which is strictly off-limits to 99% of Russians, leave alone foreignors. The other 50% of their "training" goes on in Chechnya.

Later you guys shift the focus from "Alfa" to Vityaz'.

I especially loved this post by By ArgoAdam:
He was on the last selection to "Vitiaz" and it's rumored that Russian even hoisted Polish flag in their base by that opportunity.

You guys forgot to mention salutes and orchestras!
My God, guys if you lie, try to lie more realistically.

The other one I loved was: Kossek-Vitiaz shooting style!
Can I ask you what kind of shooting style is that? I'm asking simply out of reasons of curiosity and professional knowledge. As far as I remember "Vitiaz" got its training from spetsnaz GRU's 22nd Brigade (located outside Moscow). WOW! A Polish instructor has become a competitor to GRU!

As for "advisor". It's not the word itself, but the context of a foreign advisor, which is totally alien to our military doctrine as a whole, and to spetsnaz in particular.

As for a medal he received. At least give me the name of the medal, and what does it say. Or ask him to give me at least one name of a soldier in "Vitiaz" who can confirm that Mr. Kossek was indeed an instructor.
Where are the answers to these questions? You accuse me of arguing based on theories, what theories are you talking about? Please read this thread from the start and see whats left of the original argument...
There is a difference between training with and trainning someone. Would I deny that he trained with a CT unit - no, is it hard/impossible to believe that he trained them - yes and it was explained in this thread several times why.
But I will repeat my biggest question again: What he can possibly teach Russian CT? Like 16 OBrSpN said Russian CT units were taught by GRU.
Alfa has almost impecable record and a real life experience that goes years back. So please tell me, national pride put aside, what experience do Polish SF have (except storming an abandoned oil platform)? Please educate me, I really don't know. I have heard that they train a lot but training is not exatly the same as 20+ years of dealing with bus/plane hijackings, hostage situations and prison riots...

BTW when were those pictures taken? I am asking because of the "KGB" word on their backs.

Why is he wearing "Alfa" badge when training with SWAT, is it an old airsoft habbit? :)

Despite of what you think, I am approaching this argument with an open mind. "Open mind" to some concrete proof. Please answer questions listed above and I'll admit that Mr. Kossek was a teacher and not a student... simple like that :)

[Russian Texan]

Strange reaction...
Pride?
:)
REMOV just proved that guy in fact trained with Vitiaz and other sF units.
For all those who said it was bull****.
That's all.


Tony, what happend to your original statement where you claimed that he trained them? Now you are saying that he merely trained with them, there is a difference you know ;)

[Dmitri]

BTW when were those pictures taken? I am asking because of the "KGB" word on their ba LOL, its true. First off, although Alfa was part of KGB, but there were other units under their control. And most importantly, KGB existed 13 years ago, now it is FSB. He has couple of pictures with Vityaz, then there are pics with KGB guys, which in no way prove any of your points.
By the way, why would a "contractor" recieve a medal from another gov't?

[REMOV]

Here are some very percise questions by 16 OBrSpnDon't be silly. The questions are desingned nobody answer them, and if anybody does the next very, very precise (not percise) other question can be asked. But if you like this games I can give you a four questions.

----------------------------------
The example

Thesis: There were no T-64 tanks in Soviet/Russian army.

If you cannot find the answer the conclusion will be that is no T-64 tanks in Russian army.

1) Which platoon got the tanks first?
2) What was name of the tank platoon leader?
3) What was the codename of that platoon at the first exercises?
4) When (exactly) the first Russian T-64 regiment was fully completed?

So, if you cannot find answers those questions I never believe that Russians ever uses T-64s.
-----------------------------------

Pretty funny example, right? I bet you don't know the anserws. So, even when you posted here pictures of T-64 with Russian markings on it, I don't belive - BECAUSE you cannot answer those questions, right?

So, do you have more stupid "percise questions" to answer to convince somebody to something?


Where are the answers to these questions? You accuse me of arguing based on theories, what theories are you talking about?
OK, I answered you questions, but first you answer mine (You know, I was very mericful and I don't ask about the serial number of alternator in the very first T-64 model), ok? You are Russian, knows that T-64 really exists in Soviet army, so you find those answers very fast and without any problem, right?


There is a difference between training with and trainning someone. You know what logic is? Can you explain me what is the sense of one person training in Russian CT units? But, its make a sense if this is an instructor, right?

Would I deny that he trained with a CT unit - no, is it hard/impossible to believe that he trained them - yes and it was explained in this thread several times why. Yes, I notices you've got a stron problem with your beliefs ;)

But I will repeat my biggest question again: What he can possibly teach Russian CT? I really don't know. But change the question - what Russian AT units can possibly teach guy who teaches other units around the world? Any ideas? ;)

Alfa has almost impecable record and a real life experience that goes years back. So please tell me, national pride put aside, what experience do Polish SF have (except storming an abandoned oil platform)? You have a little problem with reading? Mr. Kossek IS NOT a enforcer of any Polish special unit.

And tell me what SF units have common with a AT/CT actions?! There is only a small part of their job. And GROM is SF unit not dedicated AT/CT unit, despite of some of this kind training. You don't really see the difference between CT/AT units (Alpha, Vitez, SWAT, GSG-9) and military SF units (SPETSNAZ, GROM, KSK, SFG)?

Please educate me, I really don't know. Here you are. Tell me more about T-64, ok? ;)

I have heard that they train a lot but training is not exatly the same as 20+ years of dealing with bus/plane hijackings, hostage situations and prison riots... The very first Polish CT/AT (Warsaw, Okecie) unit has about 27 years of traditions. You probably even don't know that in 1976-1982 the Poland has a first place in numbers of hijacking (even the US was second). Only in 1981 were 26 attempts of hijacking (10 were successful). So in 1976 the two first dedicated AT Polish unit were founded (the central Wydzial Zabezpieczenia Stolecznego Urzedu Spraw Wewnetrznych (E. Misztal) and the Okecie Unit (J. Dziewulski)). You know the Vitaz was founded 1st January 1978. So tell me once again which unit(s) is older? And which has more dealing with hijacking? ;)

BTW when were those pictures taken? I am asking because of the "KGB" word on their backs. I really don't know ;)

Why is he wearing "Alfa" badge when training with SWAT, is it an old airsoft habbit?Another "wise" question? So, T-64, check the alternator S/N yet?

Despite of what you think, I am approaching this argument with an open mind. I don't think so. You haven't seen the difference between AT and SF units, you don't know the history of AT units in Russia an so on.

So, I'm waiting for the "proof" if T-64 exist or not. Can you answer the questions (you repeat those words over and over so do I)?

Again - can you see how childish your logic is, or still have a problems? ;)

[tony6]

Tony, what happend to your original statement where you claimed that he trained them? Now you are saying that he merely trained with them, there is a difference you know
OK-sorry. I meant "trained them".
The guy is a private instructor.
People pay him for training them so do You really believe that someone would pay him just for his pleasure of training WITH his client?:)
Really-I have enough of this subject.
All I said at the beggining was that the guy will be training new Polish SF unit (part of military police) and in the past he used to train some Russian units and You and Your fellow Russian buddies started this flame war.
So who's got a problem here?

[16 OBr SpN]

OK guys,

Let's talk about the pictures.
1) People have the KGB sign on their back. This is hilarious! :)
KGB had never had any jackets with its name in its entire history. So maybe we are talking about Belarus and not Russia? :)

2) There was no such thing as "Alfa" badge in its history until the collapse of Soviet Union. And you know, that KGB long seized to exist at that time.

3) Some history:
Vitiaz was indeed found in 1978. But, SOVO was the first AT unit within the Interior Ministry. SOVO stands for Svodniy Operativniy Voyskovoy Otriad. It was established in 1973. Founders of that unit were colonel Dmitry Erofeev, and major Kirill Rudnikov. Before going into VV MVD, they served in 177 ooSpN of 5 OBr SpN GRU, and Gruppa A KUOS KGB - basically spetsnaz GRU and Alfa. As for 5 OBr SpN GRU, a.k.a. "Mar'ina Gorka"; that name, for some people, says it all. :)
Later, SOVO had become what's now known as Vitiaz. Currently, Vitiaz does all of its training with Alfa and 22 OBr SpN.

4) What kind of gun is there on the picture with "Alfa"? Is that the HK MP5?? :)

5) By the way, just in case you don't know, "Alfa" was never called "Alfa" officially, until the collapse of USSR. It was called Gruppa "A" KUOS KGB SSSR. Officially, it was found in 1955, by colonels Mihail Orlov, and Grigoriy Boyarinov, and Major-General Pavel Sudoplatov. Before becoming cammanders of these units, they served in 1st and 2nd OMSBON, which means something like, Separate Infantry Brigade of Special Purpose. OMSBON's were a part of 4th Department of NKVD, but were manned by people from GRU. As you see again, GRU stands behind creation of all Russian CT units.

6) OK Remov, at least ask him where exactly is the "Alfa" base located, and there is one thing in the entrance to the base, which CANNOT be unnoticed. What is it?

7) Alfa's famous operation in Chechoslovakia was in 1968. So tell me, when did you say Polish AT units were created?? :)

To me personally, it seems that the guy has friends in Russian CT units. He doesn't instruct them.

On that picture, I confirm, it is indeed, Leutenant Ivan Shelohvostov, Hero of Russian Federation. He is from Novosibirsk. Died on February, 2003, in Argun, Chechnya. :(
Their small 6-men recon unit was on the patrol mission in the village of Sharo-Argun. They got into a massive firefight with a very large group of chechens. He was covering evacuation of his comrades, while being seriously wounded by the hand grenade. He alone, was standing in the path of surviving 14 chechens who were trying to get out of the building. When he was all out of ammo, he blew himself up, killing all 14 of them.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Dmitri]

Ouch. Remov, stop being hysterical. You were asked specific question for Mr. Kossak, since he was there. Your idiotic questions refer to the era when most people on this board were not even born, and why in the hell can they know that anyway? As for our questions, he certainly should know at least the brigade he was in, info about his medal and some major details he saw, right? Ukraine and Belarus, I think, have their own alfas, are you sure he went there? After they broke off from SU, they militaries were just scraps and leftovers, it might make sense for them to hire somebody.

OK, I answered you questions, but first you answer mine Where are the answers? You mean you answered by your own mindless questions?

And tell me what SF units have common with a AT/CT actions?! There is only a small part of their job. And GROM is SF unit not dedicated AT/CT unit, despite of some of this kind training. You don't really see the difference between CT/AT units (Alpha, Vitez, SWAT, GSG-9) and military SF units (SPETSNAZ, GROM, KSK, SFG)?

Have you ever heard of Alfa and Vityaz operating in Chechnya? Or Alfa storming the palace in Afghanistan? Do you think SWAT would be sent to do that? Delta is also a CT unit, and trains mainly for it, yet all the training also allows for your classical recon, taget destructions and of course direct action in the war. Alfa is not bounded to operate only inside Russia, which it proved many times. So at least know what you are talking about before claiming anything.

[Russian Texan]

Remov, man, you are getting rediculous here :) I would expect this kind of behavior from some teenager, but you...
First you lose an argument about calibers in the equipment section, now this. As some would say you are loosing your mojo... :)

You haven't answered a single question head-on, instead you started making stupid ones on your own, I guess that what happens when the one runs out of real arguments.

I'll be honest with you, I am very, very dissapointed with you. I really have thought that you based your posts on thorough knowledge of the subject and objective analysis of events. Oh well...another statue crumbles :lol:

I think we all get the picture now but Dmitri said it the best:" it is only people from low-esteem-countries that boast about **** like that."
My Dear Polish friends, I know that you want to be part of something big and important but in order to do that - you need to have something to offer, sorry...

BTW there use to be a thread about airsofters wearing different SF patches that they didn't deserve... get my drift? ;)

[Vance]

I think this thread should be locked, since the title is now irrelavent :D

[16 OBr SpN]

Don't be silly. The questions are desingned nobody answer them.

You are right, nobody. Except the person who "instructed" Alfa and Vitiaz! Or has certain professional connection with them. :)



You haven't seen the difference between AT and SF units, you don't know the history of AT units in Russia an so on.

And I guess you know the history of Russian SF? :)
Little info, that's of course, if you ask me:
One thing for sure in Russian SF is, there is actually no distinction between CT and SF. Except for names, proficiency, and their authority. Both took part in major operations abroad. Although, I admit that they don't let guys from SpN GRU rescue hostages. ;)
But Alfa, Vitiaz, etc. have seen major action in Afghanistan, Chechnya, some other "friendly", and "unfriendly" nations, just like GRU. Again, not as much as us, but still, their involvement format was FAR from CT.


So, I'm waiting for the "proof" if T-64 exist or not. Can you answer the questions (you repeat those words over and over so do I)?

You've been asked specific questions, which should be known to a person who "trained" our SF. Again, I don't see me asking S/N of weapons, and other irrelevant things like you do.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

PS. One more thing - this guy is a private contractor (not in a government service), hired by Russian, and was not invited to, as you said, "exhange trips". So - using your own logic - think about the private man (accidentially the CT instructor) which Russians pay to eat the dinner and make some photos with him ;)

"Private contractor"! rofl

And who hired him? Our MVD?? :)
Do you REALLY expected me to believe that!? :lol:

What the hell are you talking about man!? You obviously have no idea about realities of financial situation in Russian military.

Our guys often have to buy quality equipment for their own money! :(
Not enough financing. Plain and simple. :(

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[REMOV]

Remov, man, you are getting rediculous here :) Stupid questions, right? Think about yours. I'm not Mr. Kossek and really don't know which unit he trained and what he teached them. You ask about the pictures and I gave you some.

BTW - The KGB guys are AFAIK from some Belarusian AT units (they still have KGB).

I would expect this kind of behavior from some teenager, but you... First you lose an argument about calibers in the equipment sectionPardon? I've very appreciated that you read all my post, but sometimes I have no time to answer the all questions (especially to argue with the advertising brochure datas, nobody wins with the artifical advertising world ;)).

You haven't answered a single question head-on, instead you started making stupid ones on your own, I guess that what happens when the one runs out of real arguments.You still don't understand? The question you or your friend ask were the same quality. I gave you another example of such stupid test. So, the words "runs out of real arguments" will be connected with the person ask the questions first. As I said before you can always asked such detailed question that nobody except you can answer. How about T-64 alternator S/N, hmm? ;) Thats exactly the same thing.

I'll be honest with you, I am very, very dissapointed with you. I really have thought that you based your posts on thorough knowledge of the subject and objective analysis of events. I'm very sorry that dissapoited you (nice eristic argument, after all, about the authority, how long you've trained it?), that I didn't gave you answers you've expected. Naturally, you didn't know the real asnwer, didn't you (Dubrovka codenames)? So, Russian Texan...

My Dear Polish friends, I know that you want to be part of something big and important but in order to do that - you need to have something to offer, sorry...Nice try, Russian Texan, but you really should trained more such patronizing tone. Maybe then someone starts beliving you ;)

[REMOV]

"Private contractor"! roflDon't know the words? Or have a problem with understanding?

And who hired him? Our MVD?? Do you REALLY expected me to believe that!?I don't think so. The problem is that you're resistant to ANY arguments. And even if I answer your question (I may try, got some access to this guy, it will be difficult, but possible) you never believe me, found other "percise" questions and so on. Sorry, but your style of argumentation disscourage me to do it.

What the hell are you talking about man!? Should I wrote it again? S-l-o-w-l-y?

You obviously have no idea about realities of financial situation in Russian military.You have no idea of AT training, right? The truth is that all such groups tray to learn new things from anybody aroused theri interest. I've never said that Mr. Kossek made a comprehensive, full Alpha or Vitaz training, there is yours wrong assumption.

I even don't think that he is such a genius that knows everything about AT actions or trainings. But - according to my informations - this guy is very good at some specific parts of AT work (dynamic shooting for example) and sharing his knowledge. Maybe only for food and vodka ( ;) ) and maybe for hard cash (but I don't think so) - I REALLY don't know.

So, he trained the Russians and probably in the same time he is learned by them other AT work things or compare experiences. Thats normal thing among open-minded professionals. If his components of training are rubbish, the unit never invite him again. But, if there is something interesting, they made a good relationship with this guy, and sometimes work with him. And, in my opinion, this is the way Mr. Kossek goes to the buissened.

Anything else?

[16 OBr SpN]

You have no idea of AT training, right? The truth is that all such groups tray to learn new things from anybody aroused theri interest. I've never said that Mr. Kossek made a comprehensive, full Alpha or Vitaz training, there is yours wrong assumption.

I even don't think that he is such a genius that knows everything about AT actions or trainings. But - according to my informations - this guy is very good at some specific parts of AT work (dynamic shooting for example) and sharing his knowledge. Maybe only for food and vodka ( ;) ) and maybe for hard cash (but I don't think so) - I REALLY don't know.

So, he trained the Russians and probably in the same time he is learned by them other AT work things or compare experiences. Thats normal thing among open-minded professionals. If his components of training are rubbish, the unit never invite him again. But, if there is something interesting, they made a good relationship with this guy, and sometimes work with him. And, in my opinion, this is the way Mr. Kossek goes to the buissened.

Anything else?

When I had some idea of AT ops, you were probably going to a school. ;) How old are you anyway?

Guy may be good, and I'm not questioning his professional skills. What I'm trying to let you know is the stuff you say is plainly ridiculous: "he trained Russian SF"; "was hired by...."; etc.

Or do you think I don't know what's what in our military?? :) Or do you know this subject better than me? :)

BTW, from your last paragraph you are talking about experience exchange, but not him training our guys. ;)
If you guys would say right from the start that he visits our guys, and does some experience exchange, there wouldn't be any doubts. Although, true experience comes in the battlefield. While I'm not aware of his involvement in Chechnya, Afghanistan, Angola, Ethiopia, Nicaragua, Kuba, etc.


The KGB guys are AFAIK from some Belarusian AT units (they still have KGB).

Well, I was right, wasn't I? It's not Russia - it's Belarus! There is a VERY BIG difference, don't you think? :)

BTW, what kind of "dynamic shooting" are we talking about?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Russian Texan]

How exactly do pictures of Belorussian KGB tie into this argument?

Remov, have you ever heard of concept "cutting your losses short"?
Not only you have lost an argument, you have also lost your face and credibility.
You lost, but you are not man enough to admit it, and are desperatly looking for the way out but your attemts are childish and pathetic...
Take my advice on this: walk away without making anymore nonsense self- embarrassing posts, save whatever reputation you have left - not in my eyes though...
Like my girlfriend says: "Chiao bambino"
You may return to your delusional world of best in the world Polish CT instructors :lol:

[16 OBr SpN]

How exactly do pictures of Belorussian KGB tie into this argument?

Remov, have you ever heard of concept "cutting your losses short"?
Not only you have lost an argument, you have also lost your face and credibility.
You lost, but you are not man enough to admit it, and are desperatly looking for the way out but your attemts are childish and pathetic...
Take my advice on this: walk away without making anymore nonsense self- embarrassing posts, save whatever reputation you have left - not in my eyes though...
Like my girlfriend says: "Chiao bambino"
You may return to your delusional world of best in the world Polish CT instructors :lol:

He lost his credibility the first time "trained Russian SF" bull**** came out. ;)
Furthermore, I received no answers to my questions. Remember, I didn't even attack them. Just asked some specific questions... ;)

Remov, here is my e-mail: chuchkovo@mail.ru

I'll be glad to talk to Mr. Kossek myself, and post our e-mails on this forum, in order to clarify some "issues" :) I suppose he speaks Russian?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[tony6]

Jesus...
You really have a problem, don't You?
:)

[perdurabo]

Tony, what happend to your original statement where you claimed that he trained them? Now you are saying that he merely trained with them, there is a difference you know
OK-sorry. I meant "trained them".
The guy is a private instructor.
People pay him for training them so do You really believe that someone would pay him just for his pleasure of training WITH his client?:)
Really-I have enough of this subject.
All I said at the beggining was that the guy will be training new Polish SF unit (part of military police) and in the past he used to train some Russian units and You and Your fellow Russian buddies started this flame war.
So who's got a problem here?
As far as i know any Counter Terrorist unit can ask him to train and only price they pay is airplane ticket and accomodation :)
He use Alfa siut on SWAT training but he use SWAT siut on Alfa... :)
aand Wholagun why he dosen't train our CT hmm maybe because they didn't ask him? if you can read in polish try this one http://www.greendevils.pl/

[Russian Texan]

To 16OBrSpN

Here is link to a "Grom" fan site
http://acn.waw.pl/grom1/inaction.htm

Among other glorious and unparalled achievements by "Grom" it also mentions
1998 - Rescue of five Poles taken hostages in Chechnya Any comments?

[Russian Texan]

and Wholagun why he dosen't train our CT hmm maybe because they didn't ask him? if you can read in polish try this one http://www.greendevils.pl/So let me clarify, the guy flies around the world and trains other top tier CT teams but "Grom" doesn't think he is good enough to train them rofl rofl rofl rofl

Couple more questions for educational purposes: what unit "Grom" was modeled after and who originally trained them?

[Haiw]

'What color's the boathouse at Hereford??'

[Kitsune]

Hmmm,
I hope the first Polish-Russian war of the 21st century ends soon...

p-)

[Trigger]

'What color's the boathouse at Hereford??'
rofl
"I ambushed you with a f**kin' cup of coffee!!"

[tony6]

Texan-You really have a problem.
1) 1998 when those Poles were taken as a hostages GROM was at "stand by". If You spoke Polish You could read this on that website. That guy translated this wrong to English.
2) He doesn't train GROM becasue he is consider to be too controversial person. Beside-his contact with Russian units are not "political correct" as we are in NATO and so on.
3) there are almost Christmas-buy some beer, chill out.
Have a life.

[Russian Texan]

Texan-You really have a problem.
1) 1998 when those Poles were taken as a hostages GROM was at "stand by". If You spoke Polish You could read this on that website. That guy translated this wrong to English.
2) He doesn't train GROM becasue he is consider to be too controversial person. Beside-his contact with Russian units are not "political correct" as we are in NATO and so on.
3) there are almost Christmas-buy some beer, chill out.
Have a life.

#1 Well, I don't speak Polish so I have to depart from english version.

#2 Controversial person? When did his involvement with russians start and when did Poland become a NATO member?

#3 I do not care about Christmas (New Year is my holliday), I do not like beer and I'm not going to have much of a social life for the next 2-3 days(infection) so get used to me taking back... :)
And unlike you I'm, very very relaxed and mellow right now, partially due to the medication but still... Unfortunatelly internet can't relay tone of my voice and sarcasm or this conversation could have been so much funner ;)


This argument lost any sense long time ago, I'm just getting a kick out of how you , my dear polish friens, try to get out of your own BS :)

[Herrmannek]

Our BS isn't more stinky then yours :) . Get well soon mate.

[Russian Texan]

Thank you, I also hope it won't last too long

[perdurabo]

and Wholagun why he dosen't train our CT hmm maybe because they didn't ask him? if you can read in polish try this one http://www.greendevils.pl/So let me clarify, the guy flies around the world and trains other top tier CT teams but "Grom" doesn't think he is good enough to train them ?

maybe because grom isnt AT unit? they don't do it anymore. our AT grups are SPAT and command is caled BOA :) and he sreved 6yrs in SPAT
and read again this site:) Grom is military strike unit they make things like sizure the dam or oil platforms clearing caves, taking war criminals, securing VIP in warzone etc only hostage rescue actions that grom may do is abroad because they have no iurysdyction(sp?) here its police terrain and their SPATs units:)

Known operations in which GROM were planed to be used, but it didn't.

1994 - Rescue of four Polish engineers taken hostages in Angola

1995 - Rescue of two Polish officers taken hostages and used as live shields by Bosnian Serbs near Sarajevo

1997 - Arrest of Polish prime minister Jozef Oleksy

1998 - Rescue of five Poles taken hostages in Chechnya

:)
i dont try to flame you we just talk mate :) remov send you pictures and you didn't belived him it's ridicoulus guy is quite known in CT/AT world but you some russian living in texas have objections because you think that can't be true :) and for 16 specnaz soldier yeah mate you said it that you dont know much about your own CT because you did other things :)
as for kittsune mate relax it's normal for us we have argumens from XVIcentury so relax;-) my proposal for others is just thry to ignore this thread :) fights Polish - Russian Polish-German have strong history and can be weeeeery looong ;-)[/b]

[tony6]

Texan:

I do not like beer
I knew there was something wrong with You:)


This argument lost any sense long time ago, I'm just getting a kick out of how you , my dear polish friens, try to get out of your own BS
Dear friends You say?
I don't remember drinking vodka with You, mate:)
(You probably don't like it either)

[Russian Texan]

Perdurado, did you read comments that followed Remov posting those pictures? :cantbeli:
I suggest you do it again and please explain me how do they relate to Mr. Kossek supposively training russian SF? Not to mention a fact, like 16 OBrSpN said, A never had an arms patch :) By posting those pictures Remov had only proven his lack of knowledge on the subgect or geographical incompetence because like it was noted before - Russia and Belorussia are two different countries :)

I repeat myself again:
NONE of the questions answers to which would verify him even being there were answered. You guys simply avoided them... :)
16 OBrSpn have asked very easy question: "What is located at the entrance to A's training facility?" So if the person was there, he can easily answer it, don't you think so?
And guys, who did he train: A or Vityaz? Yall keep shifting around and desperately looking for the way out :)
C'mon guys, one of you has to be man enough to admit it...
And what happened to the claims about news paper articles, medal, hoisting of the flag, orchestra, etc. What, you conviniently forgot about them? :)
So he was at the reception/award ceremony but where is his medal, other guys on the picture have it... :)

I'm still waiting answer on my two questions about Grom, would you please...
And actually one more thing just crossed my mind: Means of delivery
Based on your statements Grom has extensive covert ops history, right? How do they get there, obviously polish airforce and navy are out of the question, so how do they get lets say to Angola? Is it civilian airlines, but then what about the gear and equipment?

[Russian Texan]

Texan:

I do not like beer
I knew there was something wrong with You:)


This argument lost any sense long time ago, I'm just getting a kick out of how you , my dear polish friens, try to get out of your own BS
Dear friends You say?
I don't remember drinking vodka with You, mate:)
(You probably don't like it either)

Like I have said before: Unfortubately internet does not allow for the expression of sarcasm, so bear with me...

So you base your definition of friendship on the amount of consumed alcohol? :) I'm sure you have a lot of true friens...
As for vodka, you are right, I don't like it either but do drink if I have to :)

[Russian Texan]

fights Polish - Russian Polish-German have strong history and can be weeeeery looong ;)

Not really, usually not more than couple of weeks ;) That is of course if Polish army doesn't get lost :lol:

[Herrmannek]

fights Polish - Russian Polish-German have strong history and can be weeeeery looong ;)

Not really, usually not more than couple of weeks ;) That is of course if Polish army doesn't get lost :lol:

So we must start topic "Why Poland is superior to Russia"

We won at least half of Polish-Russian wars :). We won in wars Russia was ran over :)
Russia never ran-over us alone , ussualy in those wars/conflicts Germany and/or Austria were involved too. We rescued Europe few times from big troubles :). We invented vodka, with if flavoured can be very good, but only in small amounts of course. last but not least If not Poland Russia would be overrun by Germans few times more. So there is lot of things to thanks us mates.

P.S. Polish army was never lost especielly if we consider russian soldiers, you can smell them from 2 miles at least... :)

[Russian Texan]

Herrmannek, you have a serious case of low self esteem/insecurity complex and I don't think there is any hope for you...
But you are right: Poland is the greatest, second grates actually, cause number one spot has already been claimed by Honduras :lol:

Have you heard of Ivan Susanin? ;)

[Herrmannek]

Herrmannek, you have a serious case of low self esteem/insecurity complex and I don't think there is any hope for you...
But you are right: Poland is the greatest, second grates actually, cause number one spot has already been claimed by Honduras :lol:

Have you heard of Ivan Susanin? ;)

Ha leave my complexes for my nut-doc, I don't pay him for nothing :)...
BTW who is the guy?

[tony6]

Texan:

I don't like it either but do drink if I have to
...if You have to???
You drink if You want not if You "have to"!
:)

[Dmitri]

Ha leave my complexes for my nut-doc, I don't pay him for nothing Yeah, sounds like bad case of scizofrenia (sp)

We won in wars Russia was ran over
Same for Poland

last but not least If not Poland Russia would be overrun by Germans few times moreHow is that?

We rescued Europe few times from big troubles Riiiiiight

[Groove]

What a freakin thread....

I just cant believ the russkies wont believe that someone can teach them somthing. Especially in their SF / CT teams.

But i think its the pride they have. Well at least something...

Russia was never a top notch military power and will never be (sad but true). There are examples all over russias history. The last thing they have are nukes. And thats all what is left after the fall of the iron curtain.

You send your ALFA Team to chechnya for training ? Well as a foreigner i would send food to this poor russian children conscripts sitting out in the field and trying to find something to eat.

Dont get me wrong, i like the russian / UDSSR military stuff. But maybe you should get your pride down a little bit and believe your friends from poland sometimes. At least you were helping "us" for over 40 years in Poland. And you almost got us to the same economic status as russia is now in.

Greetings

Groove

[Russian Texan]

What a freakin thread....

I just cant believ the russkies wont believe that someone can teach them somthing. Especially in their SF / CT teams.

But i think its the pride they have. Well at least something...

Russia was never a top notch military power and will never be (sad but true). There are examples all over russias history. The last thing they have are nukes. And thats all what is left after the fall of the iron curtain.

You send your ALFA Team to chechnya for training ? Well as a foreigner i would send food to this poor russian children conscripts sitting out in the field and trying to find something to eat.

Dont get me wrong, i like the russian / UDSSR military stuff. But maybe you should get your pride down a little bit and believe your friends from poland sometimes. At least you were helping "us" for over 40 years in Poland. And you almost got us to the same economic status as russia is now in.

Greetings

Groove
There are several problems with your statement:
# 1 Russia is the largest country in the world by far and it was done through the use of military power.
# 2 Russia as a whole country was never conquered and made someones subject, unlike Poland ;)
Mongols do not count because there was no united Russia back then but I'll give it to you if you want me to...
# 3 Yes Russians have a lot of pride. Russian pride is based on its history, culture, military, science and sports among other things. And yes it does have nukes and also whole bunch of biological/chemical and others weapons which enable Russia say "screw everyone" if it wants to.
So you see, unlike "proud" Poland that has to kiss up to everyones butt (EU comes to mind), Russia doesn't :)
You have mentioned military, so let me ask you a question: What is polish military without old soviet equipment and donated german tanks? What would polish soldiers use for guns if USSR didn't allow Poland to copy Ak?
This list can go on forever...
So when Poland will put a man in space, build a space station, start building its own aircraft, fight and win numerous fights for its very existence, have an area that occupies 14% of the Earth and has 40% of its natural resources, when you countryman start winning Olympic gold and when you have 20,000+ nuclear warhedas and when your Prime minister won't have to fly in a 30 year old soviet helicopter, then you'll understand what Pride is...
I realize that Poland wants to be big, strong, important and meaningfull but it's just not going to happen. Poland is just another small European country and that is it. Nothing special, nothing stands out - just another face in the crowd...
Ego and Pride are great but only when they can be backed up by something more than wishful thinking.
You wanted to get in a **** measuring contest - there you have it.

BTW, speaking of economy: are you trying to tell me that Poland doing better than Russia? rofl rofl rofl
If so than you are delusional... I'd like to see your numbers though :)

[Dmitri]

Ok, check this out Groove. How in the hell do YOU know anything about the situation we are talking about? Just because you read something on Internet or heard from Remov, it doesn't mean it is true. Remov claimed that he had a way of possible contact with Kossak, and was asked to try to find out some questions, which are not hard (if Kossak was there, he would know the answers) nor stupid (like nubers of alternators). On which he started going hysterical. He was proven wrong on several details about the pictures with Kossak, so the scepticism is pretty high. Why don't you prove the statesments made before?

[Dmitri]

Ok, check this out Groove. How in the hell do YOU know anything about the situation we are talking about? Just because you read something on Internet or heard from Remov, it doesn't mean it is true. Remov claimed that he had a way of possible contact with Kossak, and was asked to try to find out some questions, which are not hard (if Kossak was there, he would know the answers) nor stupid (like nubers of alternators). On which he started going hysterical. He was proven wrong on several details about the pictures with Kossak, so the scepticism is pretty high. Why don't you prove the statesments made before?

you countryman start winning Olympic goldPLENTY of GOLD, russia is always in the top 3 (more like 2) on every Olympic Games.

You have mentioned military, so let me ask you a question: What is polish military without old soviet equipment and donated german tanks? What would polish soldiers use for guns if USSR didn't allow Poland to copy Ak?
You forgot to mention US stuff that they are buying right now

You send your ALFA Team to chechnya for training ? Well as a foreigner i would send food to this poor russian children conscripts sitting out in the field and trying to find something to eat.
Wow, that makes a lot of sense, like a woodpecker on a steel pole. What does Alfa have to do with some hungry children you are talking about? Second, if you looked at some pictures of russian soldiers in chechnya, do you see bony hungry-looking children? rofl

[16 OBr SpN]

What a freakin thread....

I just cant believ the russkies wont believe that someone can teach them somthing. Especially in their SF / CT teams.

But i think its the pride they have. Well at least something...

Russia was never a top notch military power and will never be (sad but true). There are examples all over russias history. The last thing they have are nukes. And thats all what is left after the fall of the iron curtain.

You send your ALFA Team to chechnya for training ?


When did I say that noone can teach us? There are many things to be learned, especially from the Brits and Israelis, but definitely not from the Poles.
Poland has never, and hopefully, will never face bloody conflicts like some other countries: Russia, Britain, Israel, and some others.

Don't take it into dimension of "pride"! :)
It's all about Poles stating bull****, and not being able to back it. What happens when a person knows that he cannot back his claim? He either admits it, or gets defensive. Poles chose the second option.

As for your thoughts about Russia's military, no comments. Commenting on that bull****, simply insults my intelligence. I don't want to go down on to your level.

BTW, Russian Texan made a great comparison between Poland and Russia! Countries are very DIFFERENT aren't they?? :lol:
When you actually see how pathetic Poles' position is, an old Russian saying comes to my mind, "One who is born to crawl, will never fly". :lol:

[NcDeuce]

Confucious say...the Polish Commando have lost the hunt for Saddam. :lol:

[16 OBr SpN]

Confucious say...the Polish Commando have lost the hunt for Saddam. :lol:

Good one, man! rofl rofl

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[tony6]

I didn't want to get involve into that stupid kindegarden "discussion" about "who's better" but...
Man-If You say that Russian economic is doing better than ours-YOU REALLY HAVE TO BE FRIM OTHER GALACTIC.
What is an average salary in Russia, huh?
In Poland it's about 600$ now. What about Russia? (and yes-I know that Yours so called "olighars" are making astronomic money-but they are common crimilnals)
Beside city of Moscow You're not doing so well, aren't You?
Wanna numbers?
http://www.stat.gov.pl/
check "Publikacje elektroniczne" and click "Polska i Rosja w liczbach"
It is also in Russian language. Check "part 2" specially.
An those data are from 2001/2002 - now we are doing better.
Next time try not to put so much bull**** in one post, ok?

[Herrmannek]

you countryman start winning Olympic goldPLENTY of GOLD, russia is always in the top 3 (more like 2) on every Olympic Games.

How is it possible that bigest country in the world is alway 2nd-3th :)




You have mentioned military, so let me ask you a question: What is polish military without old soviet equipment and donated german tanks? What would polish soldiers use for guns if USSR didn't allow Poland to copy Ak?
You forgot to mention US stuff that they are buying right now

If not our former soviet friends, we would have space program(stoped by russians :) ), our own "H&K", own car factories, and first class electronics, we bougth your **** equipment only because we were pushed to do that by you, not because we couldn't make beter things. Give us a moment and we'll se who will win technological race :)

[tony6]

Hey Texan!
You wanted numbers, huh?
Check this out:
Poland:
Population 38 mln
National product (or whatever You call it in English):160 bilions $

Russia:
Population 145 mln
National product: 250 bilions $

Yeah, man-You really are economic super power...
Don't make me laugh.
How many times is Russia bigger than Poland?
Your national product should be like 5-6 times bigger than ours...
But it is only about 40% bigger!
And we don't have our own oil and gas sources.
So next time-check the numbers because You're really ridiculous.

[tony6]

...I forgot to ask:
when are You guys going to join European Union?
:)
sorry but I couldn't help it.
(You started this Texan)
Over & out!

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Wow i didnt know this much bitterness existed between Russia and Poland. I believe both are equally great countries, so maybe you guys should put your dinks back in your pants because from what I've read this has just been one big pissing contest.

[Shadow]

btw Is everyone able to join the EU?
Maroko wanted to join. Israel too.

[tony6]

from what I've read this has just been one big pissing contest.
Well, I have to admit that:)
Sorry about that.

[Dalleer]

btw Is everyone able to join the EU?
Maroko wanted to join. Israel too.

Yes umm...This has been a rather big topic of discussion from what I've seen. The whole concept of this matter seems to revolve around the question of "Where does the European border truly end?" and as it seems Israel can't join because it is still as much located in the middle-east as it is in Europe?

So "go figure" is my answer, I suppose that the European union has ruled likewise with Marocco (is that how you spell it?) being a part of Africa put nevertheless being in Europe?!

Don't even get them started on the topic of Russia being able to join, since Russia could in theory join the EU in alot better grounds that Israel or Marocco.

[Kitsune]

I don't know wether the russians would want to join, but one thing is for sure: No one in the EU wants them to join. The economic problems of Russia are simply too great. The highly developed nations of Europe would had to pay incedible amounts of money...for decades. And that's only the economic reason.

As far as Poland is concerned: They will be member from Spring 2004 on. And yet they have already managed to bring the European Constitution to fall last weekend with their national pride (which is highly developed indeed, perhaps a bit too high...)

Russia will always dream of being a Great Power whos dictates can make the world tremble. Poland will never achieve this. But right now the average Pole is already richer than the average Russian. And they will join the EU and we WILL work things out. In 20 years the wealth of Poland will be on a level Russians can only dream of.
But Russia will still have her nukes as compensation...

[Dmitri]

How is it possible that bigest country in the world is alway 2nd-3th
I said first 2-3, that includes first place :bash: Second, it is the biggest country, but the POPULATION is like #6 or 7 in the world.

In 20 years the wealth of Poland will be on a level Russians can only dream of.
Well, for the past 3 years Russian economy is doing better and better, and I believe the growth of the gross product rised every year about 5%. So I just don't know about that.

[Dalleer]

I don't know wether the russians would want to join, but one thing is for sure: No one in the EU wants them to join.

Yes, that is truly the matter. And I'd like the thing to stay this way since Russia is indeed unstable and would bring alot more trouble to the EU if it would join.

Mainly the financial troubles not to mention the situation in Chechnya wouldn't do the EU anything good despite that Russia's economy might be somewhat improving...

[perdurabo]

As far as Poland is concerned: They will be member from Spring 2004 on. And yet they have already managed to bring the European Constitution to fall last weekend with their national pride (which is highly developed indeed, perhaps a bit too high...)


realy? kitsune poland AND spain opposed only about votes in eu we defend our bissnes germany and france are defending theirs too so our goverment proposed to delay discusion about votes after 2006 or so. Rest of constitution is ok and we agreed on it but france and germany said or whole or nothing so fault is on BOTH sides france didnt agreed even to talk about it so flame france!

[wholagun]

Man what is happening here. Jebus this is what leads to costly wars. This thread is pure pissing contest.

To add to a few things
there are 38 million living in Poland and another 20 million all over the world with like 1.5 million in Chicago. wlmosy 60 million Poles world wide

Poland never in a major war :bash: Go to your local library and do yourself a favor and take out a book on Polish History. (i forget who said this but you know who you are the "we need to listen to Britain, Israel and Russia guy".

Our geogrpahical location sucks ****, it licks balls. Stuck between Russia and Germany/Prussia. **** all the major Euro powers at any point in European hisotory neigboured us at one point or another. Hard to fight wars none stop.

[Russian Texan]

# 1 Why would Russia want to join EU?

# 2 My numbers come from CIA.gov

Poland
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $9,700 (2002 est.) Unemployment 18%

Russia
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $9,700 (2002 est.) Unemploument 8%

The thing is that Russia has plenty of room to grow and it does based on its natural resourses deposits and various industries, Poland doesn't have same tools and it's almost caped out.

I do not know about polish numbers but russian GDP is innacurate due to not taking into account "shadow economy" which is by many estimates as big a an official one.

BTW, if Russia doing so bad economicaly, how come Moscow is the second most expensive city in the world to live in?

As for EU, so what happened couple of weeks ago at EU talks? From what I understand Germany, France and other original members aren't very excited about Poland joining, how come?

Olympics.
Russia is always #1 or #2 in total number of medals and that is even after the dissolvement of USSR (man power was cut in half)

Polands space program... No comments here.

So what prevents Poland from launching something in space now. USSR after WW2 was laying in ruins and had huge part of its population wiped out but nevertheless...


Russia never dreamed of becoming the "Great Power" like you have put it, it doesn't have to dream about it - Russia is in the league of its own, simple like that :)

You know I just have looked over this thread again and I think it is getting ridiculous, next thing you know someone from Ethiopia will say ethiopians train russian SF and I'll try to explaing him why it isn't possible.

To put a final point in this ridiculous argument I'd like to quote 16 OBrSpN: "Born to crawl will never fly"
and TF160SOAR: "Confucious say...the Polish Commando have lost the hunt for Saddam. "

[tony6]

Kitsune:

As far as Poland is concerned: They will be member from Spring 2004 on. And yet they have already managed to bring the European Constitution to fall last weekend with their national pride (which is highly developed indeed, perhaps a bit too high...)
It had nothing to do with pride, man.
We only take care of our national business.
We just want to join EUROPEAN Union, not the French-German Union.
And if those two countries don't like our relaionship with USA-it's their problem.
Besides-during our join-in negotiations they guarranted giving 27 votes to us in EU parlament and now (when we are about to join yet!) they want to change the rules of the game and give us (and Spain) less votes than in the join-in treaty. So what a hell?
Do You really expect that we will accept this?
Those are the consequences of our support in Iraq campaign and partisipation in stabilisation mission there.

[wholagun]

Please Russia and all World powers prey off the weak and use thier resources to become strong. My grandfather had all his farm equipment taken away and had it sent to Russia so that you guys can grow and have more equipment and what did my Grandfather get for that, a good butt to the head and 2 weeks in jail. CIA is a bad source dude, im sure you can find other more accurate states.

Some interesting figures that are independent can be found here, although you need to look through it. And CIA :cantbeli: , man never use that as a source, our unemployment is not 18%.. its closer to 17% and going to be 16% soon.

http://www.copernicus-finance.com/files/english/poland_in_the_eu.pdf

[tony6]

Texan:
You really have a problem with mr. kossek, haven't You?:)
As for economic data:
why don't You look it up at Your financial ministry page?
Maybe because i'm right?
Don't give me that CIA bull****.
Unemployment is our main problem now-I can agree only for that.
Previous governmet f... up and there was a crisis in 2000/2001.
But unemployment is not only economic indicator.
I'm asking again: what is the average salary in Russia?
Do You want me to find it, buddy?
So don't give me that crap that people in Russia earn the same money as in Poland because it's bull****.
Our national product increase is about 4% now (for the whole 2003 it will be about 3,5%). Next year it will be about 4,5% so the crisis is deffinitely over. Let's see how the things will be in Russia and Poland in next 10 years, ok?

[perdurabo]

# 1 To put a final point in this ridiculous argument I'd like to quote 16 OBrSpN: "Born to crawl will never fly" ]thats why i've got my pilots wings attached to my shirt :) rofl rofl rofl

[tony6]

****!
I'm still taking part in this "pissing contest" (like somebody said before)
:)

[Shadow]

Besides-during our join-in negotiations they guarranted giving 27 votes to us in EU parlament and now (when we are about to join yet!) they want to change the rules of the game and give us (and Spain) less votes than in the join-in treaty.

The UK says the same as France and Germany, the votes should depend on the Country population.

[Russian Texan]

Why is CIA a bad source, because it doesn't support your point? :)
The reason I have chosen it is because it is neither Polish or Russian and therefore...

18% vs 17%, Wow big difference :)

I am sure that that plow, that was supposively cofiscated from your granfather, has done a lot for Russia rofl rofl rofl

I do not know how much an average Russian makes but I know that Moscow has more S600, 7 series and A8 then all of the US put together or so it seems :lol:

Speaking of economy growth: Russian was 6.5% last quarter ;)

But like I have said before: Russia has plenty of potential while Poland is near it's limits. What does Poland have to offer to the world: natural resources - no, unique industries - no, technology -no, science and research - no, carrots - yes...

Being part of coalition forces does a lot for Polish self-esteem but so it does for

Afghanistan
Albania
Angola
Australia
Azerbaijan
Bulgaria
Colombia
Costa Rica
Czech Republic
Denmark
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Georgia
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Japan
Kuwait
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Palau
Panama
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Rwanda
Singapore
Slovakia
Solomon Islands
South Korea
Spain
Turkey
Uganda
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
Uzbekistan
:)

The reason I keep answering your posts is because you guys need a reality check and well - I have nothing better to do for the next couple of days :lol:

Please don't get the wrong impression about my views. I am not anti-polish, I have never thought about Poland in my life as much as during this thread. I care about it as much as I do about Equador...
I am just pointing to to the Polands place in the "Grand scheme of things", that is it. Learn to live with it, be content with it, do not pretend to be something you are not, release the bitterness from previous years and be happy...

[Herrmannek]

But like I have said before: Russia has plenty of potential while Poland is near it's limits. What does Poland have to offer to the world: natural resources - no, unique industries - no, technology -no, science and research - no, carrots - yes...

You said carrot, no science & research, no uniqe Industries and technologies rofl
And who you think is going to remove your chemical WMDs, French?USA?Chinese?.....Not Poles...why? Because your great scientist or somoone else can't do that better than we can :) .

[Kitsune]

@tony6:

I did indeed hoped Poland would accept it. With the Nizza system a European Union of 25 will be unable to come to ANY decisison. All it needs are two mediocre states (like Poland and Spain with about 36 million people each) to blockade everything. Your behaviour on the summit is the best proof. The whole idea with this contitution was to strenghten the Union.

The system proposed was the so called double majority: To reach any decision 13 (majority one) of the 25 member states would have to agree to this decision, AND those 13 must represent more than 60% of the EUs population (majority two).

And if you think about it, it is actually a fair system that gives quite a lot of power to the smaller states. If Germany and France and Belgium and, let's say, the Netherlands woul agree on something...they still would not get it through. None of the majorities would be achieved. So don't tell this **** that "Germany and France would control the EU". But with the Nizza system nothing would ever be decided. And that would destroy the Union in the end. Just think about it!! And try to be neutral. I think Poland erred on this (this time...and of course Spain).
And by the way: Everyone else agreed on it: not only Germany and France, but also Italy and Great Britain (yes...even the Brits, interesting don't you think?) Only two mediocre nations did not, two countries, who were given to much power and now they cling to it like a monkey to a banana. Sry my polish friends...don't tell me this isn't true.

Thats the problem nowadays: Todays politicians think only about power and money. And the polish are the worst (but not the only ones). Just brokering for the best deal for themselves. But the EU started as a vision. And it still is about a vision. Its about nations working together and prospering who once (not so long ago) wasted their resources by tearing each other apart. No one asks you to let yourself be subjugated. But it is similar to this Kennedy quote: "Do not ask what the EU can do for you, ask yourself what you can do for the EU!"

As it is no one is as badly represented in this European Union as a single German. We have 83 million inhabitants...but France and Great Britain have exactly as many representtives in any European body as we have (the British even have a special position as far as the payment of money to the EU is concerned). Every smaller state is overly represented. If power would be distributed because of population or economic power Germany would have much more to say.
We have conceded a lot. At did it willingly. So that the Union could work.
If Germanies ego compared to its size and economic power would be as big as the Polish ego is compared to your population size and economic power...well...better not think about it. Luckily those days are gone.

And in the end neither Poland nor Spain will stop this process. If one looks at Polands history it is perhaps understandable why they reacted the way they did. So it was perhaps a big mistake to want them to join the union as soon (as we Germans did). But this will go on. With or without Poland and Spain.

[Russian Texan]

So basically you are saying that people who buit them can't dissasemble them....rrright
If memory serves me correctly - americans are the ones paying for it so Poland's involvement there is another example of wishfull thinking :)

But let's imagine for a second that you are right. That would be first time Russia have done anything to preserve its own people and let poles deal with hazardous waste, more power to them :)

I did offer several times to the russian government to save money of our american friends and just dump all that chemical, biological and nuclear crap on Poland but nooo, they want to do it the right way.... :)

BTW let's hear about great achievements of polish science rofl rofl rofl

[Herrmannek]

BTW let's hear about great achievements of polish science rofl rofl rofl
OK ;)

Not all of course, only those on top of my mind :), not odered

-moved earth stoped sun-Copernicus(Kopernik)
-naft lamp- Łukasiewicz
-Polon&Radon- Maria Skłodowska-Curie
-Mine detector
-durable Blue Laser(recent)
-Cracking Enigma
....and many more worth mentioning....

P.S. Poles will not dissasemble russian WMDs...We will only build chem. reactors. Don't remeber anyone mentioned that: USA is sponsoring whole thing :).
P.S.S. And its not going about who will pay for that, but what method is used...RT remeber what you said "no science, no research, no industry....."

[wholagun]

@kitsune

Your telling me that Frace and Germnay getting away with breaking the Mannstrict guidelines for having a deficit under 3% does not undermine the Euro zone?

What kind of a f***ing Union is it if Chiraq says "The Poles missed a good time to shut up". So now are opinions don't count? Just cause we are smaller and like the US (which not to mention helped both France and Germany) means we gotta shut up cause we owe the french a favor of letting us into thier club? NO WAY.

I like the Union, but what I don't like is the French dictating thier will upon everyone else. Germans are ok not that bad I like them, but the French I got big beef with them. In the non EU states in Europe (Switzerland, Norway) and even some in Finland and Sweden all said that the diplomats in the hall chatter blamed France cause they didn't netotiate which the Poles and Germans were willing to do. french never were happy with new members since they would get less money for thier CAP. They let the Poles take the blame and got off, letting them go ahead with their new idea of a second speed Union.

You can't blame us for doing what the French and Germans have been doing for a long time, that is acting in thier own best interest. Its easy to say this if you are German or French your countreis don't get trampled on like the little guys. I still personally think that EU is moving too fast and should remain an economic union and not create a supra state at this point. There are still too many divisions for this.

[wholagun]

reason why you see states such as Baltic ones, and Russia and Poland grow at 4-5 % is because of a thing called the catch up theory. This theory accounts for western rich states growing only at 2%. This is because their growth is much greater but a lower percentage because of their already big economy. That one percent is 4 percent translated into Russian or Polish economy. Our countreis are right now only rebuilding after Communism, we are getting new machinery and equipment this combined with investment allows us to grow faster and more greater because of our smaller and weaker economies. Russia growing at 5% means that you are getting more investment but does not mean your richer then anyone else necessarly. ;)

**** i forgot which ratintg company rated Russia as the 1 or 2nd most attractive place to investk, Poland was a near 3rd or 4th. Russia is big and has a huge market open for business but still has huge corruption even bigger then ours and huge black market ie. Consumption of bread increased but bread sales didn't, that was 3 years ago. Russia can be super power but we can't thus we need to align ourselves with other states. But look at countries like Netherlands which are relativly powerful but have a small populaiton or Spain in the 17th century or Portugal. It all depends on economics and science, if you got those two your set even if your small.

BTW this thread sucks it should be locked.

[perdurabo]

kitsune you are german right?:)
and RT if russia is so great why you live in usa?:)

[Herrmannek]

No don't close it, Lot's of fun is here p-)

[wholagun]

No don't close it, Lot's of fun is here p-)

dude this is has nothing to do with the original topic. This post is just who's country is better - mine or yours. this is not military its nationalism to some degree, it has nothing to do with military.

[Herrmannek]

OK... :( ....but you will regeret

[perdurabo]

No don't close it, Lot's of fun is here p-)

dude this is has nothing to do with the original topic. This post is just who's country is better - mine or yours. this is not military its nationalism to some degree, it has nothing to do with military.
je je i've got bigger............ than you!!!:P

[wholagun]

kurwa we are listing science achievements. :cantbeli: Despite me being Polish and all I think that this thread is getting messy. Its only Poles and Russians posting and the occasional German and Yank will post too. Whats next we gonna measure **** sizes too? :)

[Herrmannek]

So why we dont ask moderator to move that thopic into off-topic

[wholagun]

So why we dont ask moderator to move that thopic into off-topic

hhmm good point but no, this is not even humar its not progressive, its fun to bash the Russkies but still, its not good for Polish - Russian relations in the long run :lol: On a more serious note its not going to ever end thats why, there won't be an end, it will just be lising of science achievements, economy, hisotry etc and eventually **** size.

[perdurabo]

oj we got bigger ones like i said :D

[Russian Texan]

BTW let's hear about great achievements of polish science rofl rofl rofl
OK ;)

Not all of course, only those on top of my mind :), not odered

-moved earth stoped sun-Copernicus(Kopernik)
-naft lamp- Łukasiewicz
-Polon&Radon- Maria Skłodowska-Curie
-Mine detector
-durable Blue Laser(recent)
-Cracking Enigma
....and many more worth mentioning....

P.S. Poles will not dissasemble russian WMDs...We will only build chem. reactors. Don't remeber anyone mentioned that: USA is sponsoring whole thing :).
P.S.S. And its not going about who will pay for that, but what method is used...RT remeber what you said "no science, no research, no industry....."

Kopernikus... Wow, can you go back any further

Enigma - British/Americans might have a problem with that

Mine detector - Germans might have a problem with that

Naft lamp - ?
Blue laser - ?

What are some "more worth mentioning"?
What unique industries does Poland have?

[Russian Texan]

kitsune you are german right?:)
and RT if russia is so great why you live in usa?:)

Every country on this planet has its pluses and minuses. At the present time living in America suits my priorities as well as social and financial interests.
Times change - priorities and interests change, who knows, some day I might end up in Poland - now, wouldn't that be fun :)

[Herrmannek]

BTW let's hear about great achievements of polish science rofl rofl rofl
OK ;)

Not all of course, only those on top of my mind :), not odered

-moved earth stoped sun-Copernicus(Kopernik)
-naft lamp- Łukasiewicz
-Polon&Radon- Maria Skłodowska-Curie
-Mine detector
-durable Blue Laser(recent)
-Cracking Enigma
....and many more worth mentioning....

P.S. Poles will not dissasemble russian WMDs...We will only build chem. reactors. Don't remeber anyone mentioned that: USA is sponsoring whole thing :).
P.S.S. And its not going about who will pay for that, but what method is used...RT remeber what you said "no science, no research, no industry....."

Kopernikus... Wow, can you go back any further


Do you really want :)



Enigma - British/Americans might have a problem with that

They will not...we broke enigma before war was started, and our work was used by British to brake more complicated models...after 50 yeras of lying brits admited that Poles broke enigma first ;)


Mine detector - Germans might have a problem with that

Its their problem :)


Naft lamp - ?

You know...those http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:lXzh2XPj1kwC:www.trzebiez.pl/rybacy/lampa.jpg


Blue laser - ?

Our scientist invented base for lasers emiting blue light, with allow to comercialy produce them for use in data storing/reading equipment and for other purposes
http://www.aixtron.com/redir.php?url=http://www.aixtron.com/press/AIX040802.htm



What are some "more worth mentioning"?

Must to do some reaserch :)



What unique industries does Poland have?
[/quote]
We don't have nothing unique I can tell you right away, but we have all branches of industry developed countrys have..
-we make planes,cars,electronics,trains,wepons, food, clothes, GM food :), etc...

[perdurabo]

:cantbeli: and size contest is going on and on :)
my 2cents:
world computing olimpics last year russians petersburg and moscow 3 and 2nd place
1st place warsaw poland :D hahaha MIT guys didn't made even in first 10 rofl rofl

edit: och we also have this guy:
http://img.interia.pl/wiadomosci/nimg/akcje186876.jpg :) he is born to fly it's Adam Małysz rofl rofl rofl (yeah some ppl are born to crawl but some are born to FLY)

[Argo AdAm]

BTW is "Grom" still in Iraq and what do polish people think about their country being involved overthere?
At first of all, I'm sorry that my answer is so late I have a problems with login to this forum.
As I know part of "Grom" still operates in Iraq oficially under coalition/American special operations command and who knows, maybe in TF 121. Recently there appeared some rumours that Polish soldiers could be engaged in capture od Saddam, why? Answers: - Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, says the Army's Fourth Armored Division and coalition [not only american?] special forces caught Saddam Hussein late Saturdayone, - one of polish tabloid wrote this because Fox News apparently told that earlier [?], - Bush phoned our president in that sunday, and on the next day, monday, American ambassador visisted Polish president. Don't take this seriously these are only rumoures. It doesn't matter for me, I only know Polish soldiers do their work as well as it possible.
A for Polish being involved in Iraq, many Polish people and almost whole our parliament understand that someone is needed to help Iraqis rebuild their country, and Poland has a big UN tradition so... it's another mission, but of course everybody are afraid of death of Polish soldiers.

Now it's time for me to join the most childish stupid and discusting disccusion on this forum :(
I have a proposition for you little boys, came back to kindergarden, it's a place for you and since that moment for me too, eh... :|



So you see, unlike "proud" Poland that has to kiss up to everyones butt (EU comes to mind), Russia doesn't.
Excuse me Russian Texan, but let me say that: Russia has a different style of ass kissing - Russian people kiss every Russian government's ass, although these authorities have had their own nation deeply in .... This is an old Russian tradition, and you really can be very proud of it. All these czars, communists, Jeltzyn, Putin and others have been pissing on their people and it has seemed to Russian people that it's raining. :cantbeli:

BTW. As for EU and Poland, I see you haven't heard anything about how hard is Polish negotiating over the EU's new constitution and how our government argues with France and Germany.


So when Poland will put a man in space, build a space station, start building its own aircraft, fight and win numerous fights for its very existence, have an area that occupies 14% of the Earth and has 40% of its natural resources, when you countryman start winning Olympic gold and when you have 20,000+ nuclear warhedas and when your Prime minister won't have to fly in a 30 year old soviet helicopter, then you'll understand what Pride is...
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
I'm sorry, but this is one of the most stupid definitions what Pride is, I've ever heard.
What about Russian pride? Do you feel pride when you see how some Russians still very loudly celebrate their former leaders like f.e. Stalin, Dzerzhinsky who are simply murderers, because they were responsible for the death of many Russians? Do you feel pride when you see the neo-fascist groups marching without any problems in the streets of Russian cities? It's ridiculous for me that there is still Dzerzhinskey Division, retaining Dzerzhinsky's name for a division is like Germany calling one of their divisions f.e. the "Heydrich division,"... Think about that man.

Enigma - British/Americans might have a problem with that I see you are the same problem with it. So let me "ctr+c" + "ctrl+v" something:

- Copy of Enigma (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Enigma) ciphering machine was created by a group of polish matematicians (Jerzy Różycki, Marian Rejewski and Henryk Zygalski) and handed over to the allies in 1939.

Mine detector - Germans might have a problem with that
Józef Kosacki inventedPolish mine detector (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Polish-mine-detector) which was used throughout the war by allied armies.
These and other Polish inventions from WWII
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Polish-contribution-to-World-War-II

Technical inventions
Copy of Enigma ciphering machine was created by a group of polish matematicians (Jerzy Różycki, Marian Rejewski and Henryk Zygalski) and handed over to the allies in 1939.
Józef Kosacki invented Polish mine detector which was used throughout the war by allied armies.
- Vickers Tank Periscope MK.IV was indeed invented by engineer Rudolf Gundlach and patented in 1936 as Gundlach Peryskop obrotowy. It was then copied by the British and used in most tanks of WWII, including soviet T-34, british Crusader, Churchill, Valentine, Cromwell and american Sherman. The main advantage of this periscope was that the tank commander did no longer have to turn his head in order to look backwards.
- Bomb hatches system was invented by Wladyslaw Swiatecki in the thirties and was used, among others, in polish PZL P.37 Elk bomber. In 1940 Swiatecki handed over the plans of his invention to the british authorities, which used it in most british bombers of WWII. In 1943 a modernized version was created by Jerzy Rudlicki for american B-17 Flying Fortress bomber.
- Rubber windscreen wiper was invented by polish pianist Jozef Hofman
- Henryk Magnuski, a polish engineer working for Motorola company, invented in 1940 the SCR-3 radio, the first small radio reciever/transmitter to have manually-set frecuency. It was used extensively in American Army and was nick-named Walkie-Talkie.


Naft lamp - ? "Oil lamp"
1853 Ignacy Lukasiewicz invents petrol lamp 1792 - http://www.sapivi.co.uk/uk/lamps/oil-lamp-mantles.html
the first oil lamp in the world was invented by a Pole - Lukasiewicz - http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=4352&pagenumber=4

Blue laser - ? Google+"Polish"+"blue laser"[/quote]
Regards.
Stop :bash: - let's :hug:

[perdurabo]

oh other ones that are born to fly:
http://www.darocha.finn.pl/img/foto5.jpg
http://www.darocha.finn.pl/img/foto2.jpg
Mr. Darocha :)and Poland is almoust unbeaten in precision(in 97 in france polish team made only 3rd place:( but france sucked because they put limitations on our Wilgas and they preffered Cessnas :( ) flying (from 85 to 99 without 97polish team made allways 1st place) :)
Jeah you want to say something else about crawling?:) (sorry for that but it pissed me off because i'm pilot myself and meany of my friends are very good pilots and jumpers)

[Herrmannek]

Thanks Argo :)...

[Dmitri]

Now it's time for me to join the most childish stupid and discusting disccusion on this forum Jesus, can this be more stupid.. :cantbeli: Congrats, you just joined the kindergarden!!! No one made you.

Stalin, Dzerzhinsky who are simply murderers, because they were responsible for the death of many Russians?Dude, you need to update your info. You still live in 80's. You will never see anyone celebrate any of these guys, there are just couple of Lenin monuments, but no one cares about them, plus he wasn't that bad. And what about Putin? He is about the best thing that happened to Russia in decades.
Attention to all POLES: keep your menpleasers shut if you don't know what in the hell you are talking about!!!
You listed all these little things that Poland came up for WWII... other countries are coming up with fleets of tanks, aircrafts, weapons and ships, but hey....Poland came up with windshield wipers and downsized a radio!!! Something to really remember.
You guys trip me out rofl

[tony6]

To Kitsune:
Dude-I don't think You realize this but Great Britain actally supported us.
Tony B. said that Nizza system is all right with him.
And don't give me that crap about "European idea": those are only words.
Look what France and Germany are doing!
Those two countries should be fined for overcomming their budget deficits (acoording to the EU law!) and guess what?
Nothing happens!
They've just decided that they won't be punished for that because... they are France and Germany!
If some other smaller country (for example Poland) exceeded its deficit they would be first to shout very loudly and fine that country with millions of Euro!
So what? We have two categories off countries here?
One have to obey the law and second (France and Germany) can piss on it and laugh?
Where's Your idealistic approach here, huh?
EU is only business and You (Germans&French) know it very well, don't You?

[tony6]

As for other posts-no comments...
Gentelmen-You really should change the subject.
And Texan-I don't know exact numbers but Russian average salary is about 150-200$

[Kitsune]

Great Britain did NOT support you. They would have signed the Constitution.

The 3% thing is a bit more complicated. First Germany claims not to have broken it. Second, many economic experts (not all) think this 3% thing is much to restrictive. And as far as i have heard Poland has also some problems to fulfill the conditions for its EU membership. You aren't exactly the perfect pupil.
But you are right with your criticism. It is matter of principle and Eichels (Germanies financial minister) gives ammo to all anti Europeans. something like this must simply not happen.

That you and your Polish politicians think the EU is only buisiness is well understood by now. It is not. It is about cooperation. about focusing resources and power. For a European Union things become possible that are impossible for any single of its membersstates. Defense. Military intervention. Satellite systems. Research projects. Even going to moon or mars in the future. And the double majority system is perfectly fair even generous to the small or mediocre nations. With the Nizza system the EU is paralysed with 25 members.
But perhaps Poland simply is not ready for something like this. Simply stay out. Try out inyour newfound independence. You can't do much wrong, I think. Or become an "associate member" or something. Fine with me.

Its a serious throwback, no question about it. But the Constitution will come. Everyone has agreed to it except Poland and Spain. And once Aznar is gone its quite probable that Spain agrees. And Poland? The EU has managed so far without Poland, reasonably well. I think that it can do alright without Poland in the future, too.

[Loco]

@tony6:

I did indeed hoped Poland would accept it. With the Nizza system a European Union of 25 will be unable to come to ANY decisison. All it needs are two mediocre states (like Poland and Spain with about 36 million people each) to blockade everything. Your behaviour on the summit is the best proof. The whole idea with this contitution was to strenghten the Union.

My dear, I don´t read the rest of your thread, and please don´t take all my words literally. I don´t know where in the hell you were born, but the place you were born doesn´t make you better, no way. Spain isn´t a mediocre state, it´s simply an state, good or bad, anything what you want except mediocre or grey, you like it or you don´t like it. Please don´t talk about Spain in this Russian-Poland contest, specially if your arguments are so ¿strong?. And I can´t evit saying I´m surprised looking at how some people are proud because they are joing the EU. I don´t know how are things in Finland or Poland, but when Spain joined the EU, then it was called Comunidad Económica Europea, we weren´t so proud like when your team wins or you do "it" 5 times in a night. We just were worried accounting the number of factories we had to shut, the number of big tank ships we stopped of building, or the number of cows we had to kill because dutchs, frenchs or english farmers had enough cows and they had to sell their milk in spanish shops in spite of our milk, and still today they can have more cows than we can have, stranges thing, hugh? Other thing I can´t understand is still 18 years after joining the EU, frenchs peasants still are burning spanish trucks, well, I mean we were worried in that moment, we thought we did a good deal, not the best deal, since the moment that in 1985 spanish economy was growing since the year 1958, and joining the EU didn´t change that trend, and we knew it wasn´t a big success joining the EU, it was a different thing: INEVITABLE. The only thing we were sure in that moment is that Spain would finish the political isolation(not economic isolation) of Franco age, but by 1985 Franco´s was 10 years died, and today, in 2003, I see we were very ingenuous, we didn´t need the EU for finishing that isolation, only freedom, that´s all.
First of all, if in Niza everybody agreed in some point, it´s the time of respecting previous agreements. The ones destroying mutual confidence of everbody and the Europe Union itself are the not serious people, the ones who today say: WHITE, becasue white is good for me, but tomorrow they say BLACK, because black is now good for me, and were France and Germany the ones didn´t respect previous pacts. And were France and Germany the ones who are breaking like cheaters the stability pact, exporting in that way their crisis to others countrys who don´t spend more money than they have. France and Germany have broken their previous comminments when WE ALL decided to make the single currency.
I´m upset since I was born of listening the germans talking how serious are they in economy and teaching you even if you don´t want to listen them their lessons, not to talk the frenchs, and now that we are in the same boat, the euro, they broke it. I envy GBritain because they keep the pound, really I miss the peseta, the humble peseta. Pesetas were emited 140 years ago, they survived foreings and internal wars, several international crisis, and never died, and the most important thing, we controlled our coin. BTW, Spain invests the most of our money in America, and I mean America: from Alaska to Cape Horn, and man, we know this territoy since a lot of centuries ago, and certainly it´s more appealing that europe itself, we don´t need France nor German more than they need us, you know, you don´t need speaking french or germany for travelling across America. Today, Spain is the second investor at the south of Rio Grande, the the amount of money invested is still growing, then, I just can´t see that we must share our sovereignty with 15 europeans countries, and soon 25. Sincerenly, I know almost nothing about Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Rumania or Eslovenia, I know a bit more about Germany, many things more about France, and a lot more about USA, Mexico, Peru, Argentina, Chile and so on, and they are the people we´re interested in Spain even they are far from us. Europe is business, nothing more.
All what I´ve listened of France and Germany in the failed meeting in Italy is a lot of blah blah blah, and friend, this is becoming something frequent. First of all, the national interest of Germany/France is only the french/german interest, not the european interest, and the same to Germany, they are bigger than the others, but the others together are biggers than France/Germany. And Spain has, of course, the right to vote its own interest, and we don´t tolerate any petulant and ridiculous foreing politician telling us what to do. BUT WHAT IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE????? If they want to devolope and other french-german union inside EU, common man, it´s your right to do that, but don´t expect the rest of us cry, well, and what more? I´m sure we won´t have nightmares for being alone. In the case of Spain, EU buy the most of our exports, and that it´s all, nothing more, we don´t want to share anything more with France, German, and excuse me, Poland or GBritain or Russian, we talk different lenguages, in some cases we share common values specially if we are compared with the muslim or the oriental world, but we aren´t homogeneous. When Spain joined the EU in 1985, nobody talked us about an European Constitution or similar 18 years ago, we only talked about economy, I don´t want an european passport or something similar, I like Europe, but it´s simply I can´t see the need a french or a german can decide with their votes things of my daily life, that it´s all.
And since the Europe Union is a union of states, not a union of citizens, then the votes are for States, the size of population it doesn´t care, only the day the European Union becomes a union of citizens and the borders are deleted, this day the population may be important, but perhaps this day European Union won´t be interesting for spanish, my european friends, I like you, but so I like USA and I don´t want to be american.
A european constitution has failed? HUUURRRAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!

Post Data:
Other thing that Spain has 40 million people, not 36. Poland has a Rent per capita or 8.500 USdollar, an uneployment of 16%, an inflation of 8%. And Russia has a Rent per capita of 7.700USdollar, an unemployment of 10,5%, and inflation of 10%. That said, the most accurate comparison would be what we call in spanish "poder de compra", that is what you can buy with a dollar in Poland and in Russia?
http://es.biz.yahoo.com/ifc/rus.html
http://es.biz.yahoo.com/ifc/pl.html

[Loco]

And once Aznar is gone its quite probable that Spain agrees.
I never voted Aznar, and I agree with him about this matter. And don`t pretend EU, or Germany, is essential for any other country, don´t be so ingenuous, you know, 70 years ago a ridicule austrian convinced all germans that they were superiors and the most handsome people in the earth, and it´s certainly a mistake if you look to germans look, but even although germans had mirrors 70 years ago, they believed they were themselves superior and more handsome than any other people, don´t repeat that mistake again, my friend, you aren´t. There isn´t any other country that need Germany or the EU more than vicebersa, and of course, spanish with or without Aznar won´t tolerate europeans/german politicians acting as if they were Dalton Brothers, and I tell you we haven´t any trauma about German or France, we aren´t afraid about you, we know how to be bad boys too when it´s necessary. We do not need you. Good night.

[Russian Texan]

oh other ones that are born to fly:
http://www.darocha.finn.pl/img/foto5.jpg
http://www.darocha.finn.pl/img/foto2.jpg
Mr. Darocha :)and Poland is almoust unbeaten in precision(in 97 in france polish team made only 3rd place:( but france sucked because they put limitations on our Wilgas and they preffered Cessnas :( ) flying (from 85 to 99 without 97polish team made allways 1st place) :)
Jeah you want to say something else about crawling?:) (sorry for that but it pissed me off because i'm pilot myself and meany of my friends are very good pilots and jumpers)

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
So that it one of those airplanes produced by the world renown polish aerospace industry...ok then


Here is one of Russian teams

Look and whip :)

http://www.strizhi.ru/user/mk/220303/16.jpg

http://www.strizhi.ru/user/mk/220303/28.jpg

http://www.strizhi.ru/user/mk/220303/37.jpg

http://www.strizhi.ru/user/mk/220303/18.jpg

To Argo Adam
Dzerzhinskij was a Pole you know... ;)
To the Pilot guy
Speaking of winning
http://www.larrylowe.com/wac/Home.html
I am sorry I didn't see Poland's name there, how come?
Oh, here is another one
http://www.fai.org/news_archives/civa/cat_5th_advanced_world_aerobatic_championship.asp

Wait, here is another one
http://events.fai.org/aerobatics/awac2000/team.asp
Kinda contradicts your statement, don't you think so...

Almost forgot
http://www.aeronautics.ru/sukhoi/su34005.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/sukhoi/su34004.jpg

Speaking of **** size:

World's heaviest lifting rocket "Proton" 23 tons of cargo or 10 megaton warhead (Nagasaki was only 20 kilotons), first launched in 1965. What did Poland do in 1965?.... I'am sorry, I forgot that it absolutely wouldn't be possible without polish carrots...
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0007/zvezdalaunch_nasa.gif

When Poland will build, if ever, something like this - then you'll get the Pride thing...

You guys turned it into pissing contest, so might as well enjoy the results...

[tony6]

As for EU: Loco said it all:)

[tony6]

And Kitsune:
talking about a military&defense strength of EU...
You're kiddin', right?:)

[tony6]

Texan:
Well You seem to be unaware of one thing: every Polish attempt to become little less dependent from Soviet Union was immediatelly squashed by soviets.
For example meteor missiles (which could actually reach Earth's orbit) program was immediatelly cancelled by Russians when they found out. The same with TS-16 Grot (military jet) program. 50 years of soviets domination was a totall disaster.
Polish scientists and engineers are very well educated yet in the reality of Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact they hadn't many opportunities to prove it.
Just wait some 10-20 years and we will see, ok?
Do You know which team won this year TopCoder (the most prestige programming contest in the world) competition? Polish. I have to admit that Russian team was second.
About few months later there was individual contest final. Wanna know who won it?Polish student from Warsaw University (I don't know about Russian students in this individual contest but I think they also scored high because they are good).
And talkin about carrots:
Did You hear about India's Soviet-made S-125 rockets upgrading program?
Well they want to "digitize" the system to upgrade it's capabilities.
They wanted Russians to do it (it's Your rockets after all:)
Russian engineers were working on that for the last 2-3 years but their prototype failed on the tests in India. India's government finally lost its patient.Polish verion (known as Newa-SC) is a full digital system and it's been workin fine for the last 3-4 years in NATO anti-aircraft system.
And guess who will be awarded with a 125 mln $ contract next year?
Yeah-Poland.
It seems that we are better than You in upgrading Your own missiles:)
I even read lately that one of the verions of new UAZ jeep successor (I don't remeber the name) will be powered by Polish-made diesel engine (from Andoria factory).
I don't think that You're laughing at Poland on purpose.
It is more like You know nothing about our country.
Or maybe it is because famous soviet/Russian propaganda?
I don't know but try to be more open-minded and don't rely only on Russian so called "free media" (we all know how Mr. Putin understand that conception)

[tony6]

And yeah: nice pictures of Su-27 and space rocket but tell me-where is Your famos space program now?
Where is Mir space station or Buran space shuttle?
After Soviet Union collapse all Your ambitious military/space programs collapsed too.
Show me any Russian new military jet constructed after 1990? (beside Su-3X family because those are new version of the old Su-27).
How many new fighters is Russian Army ordering now every year?
I leave that answers to You, man 'cos I don't want to be cruel.

[Kitsune]

@Loco & Tony6

Well, I sincerly hope that you two specimen are not representative for the majority of your nations population. :roll:
As the fledgling United States drafted their constitution they had similar problems: Which state would get what amount of power, how powerful would the Union be ? There was mistrust, envy and contention. But they overcame it. With your attitude they would still be a colony of Great Britain.

:lol:

[Herrmannek]

You listed all these little things that Poland came up for WWII... other countries are coming up with fleets of tanks, aircrafts, weapons and ships, but hey....Poland came up with windshield wipers and downsized a radio!!! Something to really remember.
You guys trip me out rofl

Question was about science and reasearch :), if you want our involwment in WWII ok

Battle of Lenino
Battle of England
Battle of Monte Casino
Battle of Falaise
Battle of Berlin
Battle of Tobruk
Warsaw Uprising
Breaking Enigma
Delivering vital technical details of V2 rockets to Brits
Detailed and Continous Inteligence about German forces and its moves
Proving and reavaling true about holocaust
Fighting german logistics by our underground army
Many succesfull sea battles http://www.polish-navy.org/
And probably few more I didn't mentioned

Hey this is **** size contest: tell me what would do Russia if not had american's material and technological help ? Also tell me about your inteligence(Stirling doesn't count :) ). About your fleet...etc... :lol:

[Seiyuuki]

@Loco & Tony6

Well, I sincerly hope that you two specimen are not representative for the majority of your nations population. :roll:
As the fledgling United States drafted their constitution they had similar problems: Which state would get what amount of power, how powerful would the Union be ? There was mistrust, envy and contention. But they overcame it. With your attitude they would still be a colony of Great Britain.

:lol:

Actually, their altitudes are necessary, they are the opposing viewpoints. You need two opposing viewpoints in order to come together and form a compromise.

Between the Anti-Federalists and Federalists...BAM...you have the ratification of the American's Constitution. So, hopefully, somewhere between the Anti-EU and EU-ish people...BAM...you have the ratification of a European's Constitution.

Though I have absolutely no idea about the type of government the EU is going to be...you guys should consider a bicameral legislature. That was basically the solution to the debate between big states and small states, representation on population vs. equal representation among all states, etc.

[perdurabo]

@Loco & Tony6

Well, I sincerly hope that you two specimen are not representative for the majority of your nations population. :roll:
As the fledgling United States drafted their constitution they had similar problems: Which state would get what amount of power, how powerful would the Union be ? There was mistrust, envy and contention. But they overcame it. With your attitude they would still be a colony of Great Britain.

:lol:
We want to talk about it but we wont be german and france monkey

and R-T i said precision flying! you can't read or you don't have a clue about flying? and in 97 or so there was polish world chammpion in aerobatics mr. Kacperek but he died :( and look about glider aerobatics championship (Jerzy Makula, Małgorzata Margańska for egzample)

[Russian Texan]

Herrmannek, please don't even go there. Implying on Polads vitality/significant contribution to the Germans defeat is another example of wannabe/wishful thinking complex. I suggest you pick up a copy of a british documentary series called "The Russian Front", it has very interesting comments by one of the best WW2 historians: John Erickson of University of Edinburg. The series also touches on the "significance of the allied help"
You are teenager right? All this bogus/brainwashing/inferiority complex/wishful thinking propaganda-information that you come up with is the direct consequence of Polish independence. You see, yonger brother of the friend of mine is attending school in Ukraine (another very independent country) and is being taught same things as you with one minor difference: name Poland is substituted by the name Ukraine... If one is to believe everything they teach, it is very easy to come to the conclusion that ancient Greece, Roman empire, etc. were sidekicks of the Ukraine. Add to that implications like Renaissance and Industrial revolution taking its origins in the steps of the Ukraine also...
My point is that it is not you, it is your education that channels your mind into all that wishful thinking stuff. For some reason in some countries facts and substance are being sustituted by made up stuff that supposively makes them look important, when in fact it makes them look stupid and brainwashed... Why can't Poland be happy with what it is, why is it pretending to be something it is not? Become content with who you are and life will become so much easier.

[Russian Texan]

and R-T i said precision flying! you can't read or you don't have a clue about flying? and in 97 or so there was polish world chammpion in aerobatics mr. Kacperek but he died :( and look about glider aerobatics championship (Jerzy Makula, Małgorzata Margańska for egzample

Glider aerobatics you say...ok then
Sir, have you ever heard of the expression: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"?
Because that is exactly what you are doing, well actually you are not even bringing a knife, you brought a plywood sword...

Country that makes
http://www.darocha.finn.pl/img/foto5.jpg

VS

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s37/images/img9.jpg

I don't think any further comments are neccessary...

[tony6]

I don't even comment putting the PZL-104 picture here...(what has to do with the subject?)
And by the way: this S-37 plane is just a prototype and it will never enter the service-wanna bet?
(Russian army is to much underfunded for that).
I also watched interesting British document lately-about Russian Army and "diedowshczyzna" (I don't know how to call it) - discrimination of young soldiers in army.
Jesus Christ! I've never seen something like this before (I'm not being sarcastic here...) We also have this in our Army-we call it "fala" (the wave) - I think every Army meets this problem - but what I saw in this movie was thrilling.
Total moral breakdown-I was shocked.
I don't know the title (I wasn't watching it from the beggining) but it was really shocking...

[Herrmannek]

Herrmannek, please don't even go there. Implying on Polads vitality/significant contribution to the Germans defeat is another example of wannabe/wishful thinking complex. I suggest you pick up a copy of a british documentary series called "The Russian Front", it has very interesting comments by one of the best WW2 historians: John Erickson of University of Edinburg. The series also touches on the "significance of the allied help"


Why I have to read their or yours historycians' books, They just remove word Poland and put there word "Britan" or "Russia" :) jk



You are teenager right?


If above 22 is teenager, then right :)


All this bogus/brainwashing/inferiority complex/wishful thinking propaganda-information that you come up with is the direct consequence of Polish independence.


We have complexes...maybe...who cares...I'm not...but our propaganda haven't nothing to do with our recently gained independence...this is all about facts and history :)
Do you realy can say that if not Poland Europe would look the same as now...


You see, yonger brother of the friend of mine is attending school in Ukraine (another very independent country) and is being taught same things as you with one minor difference: name Poland is substituted by the name Ukraine... If one is to believe everything they teach, it is very easy to come to the conclusion that ancient Greece, Roman empire, etc. were sidekicks of the Ukraine. Add to that implications like Renaissance and Industrial revolution taking its origins in the steps of the Ukraine also...


Take few classes in russian school, then you will know what country's name is more often subitiuted in history books :).



My point is that it is not you, it is your education that channels your mind into all that wishful thinking stuff. For some reason in some countries facts and substance are being sustituted by made up stuff that supposively makes them look important, when in fact it makes them look stupid and brainwashed...


Does Russia looks "stupid" when shaking its rusty sabre...Yes...Does Poland looks stupid when fighitng for its particular buisnesses...No...So who wants to look more important than it realy is?



Why can't Poland be happy with what it is, why is it pretending to be something it is not? Become content with who you are and life will become so much easier.

I'm almost content, And we aren't pretending we are world superpower like Russia does when isn't any more :).

[Russian Texan]

And yeah: nice pictures of Su-27 and space rocket but tell me-where is Your famos space program now?
Where is Mir space station or Buran space shuttle?
After Soviet Union collapse all Your ambitious military/space programs collapsed too.
Show me any Russian new military jet constructed after 1990? (beside Su-3X family because those are new version of the old Su-27).
How many new fighters is Russian Army ordering now every year?
I leave that answers to You, man 'cos I don't want to be cruel.

Well, Russian space program aparantely is the one that keeps ISS alive, oh and it also has the highest number of launches per year (by far) complimented by a very nice success rate. Are we talking about the same program that allows private individuals to fly as tourists, not that you'd know 'cause poles can't afford it :) . So it is doing quite well considering the lack of financing just like every other industry in Russia. Like one NASA guy said: "If only russians had a fracture of money that NASA has, we'd see some truly amazing things...", I think that comment says it all. So what's up with Poland space program? oh, I forgot you specialize on carrots :lol:
Mir space station is on the ocean's floor after outliving it original term of life 3 times...
Are you talking about this "Buran"?
http://www.globalaircraft.org/photos/planephotos/buran04.jpg
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/gifs/buran_an225.jpg
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/gifs/buran_land.gif
Well, right now it is displayed in the Moscow's amusement park. The whole project idea was borrowed from americans, you see, soviet leaders thought that if US has it - USSR has to have it too. So even though that "Buran" was more advanced (fully automated), had a better payload capacity, etc. than Shuttle program, it still was a gimmick with no practical use. Rockets are much more reliable, have greater payload capacity and cheaper too. NASA is sticking with shuttle because there was to much money dumped into the project to abandon it and it is a matter of national pride - they are the only ones who have it.

Su 27 and its derivatives...
By asking that question you show nothing but your incompetence...
#1 If it ain't broken - don't fix it.
#2 Latest offsprings of the Su 27 family don't have much incommond with its predecessor besides general appearance.
#3 That particular platform offers so many upgrade capabilities that will be seen it around for quite some time

Number of aircraft that entered service in the Russian airforce during 1990s... well, I do not know how many for sure, but I do know its more than in Poland... ;)

Speaking of airforce, would you please post content of polish airforce so we both can laugh. You even may include the most modern Polish aircraft: 20+ year old, series A, Germany donated Mig 29.

Lets keep it going, I am having too much fun... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dmitri]

And by the way: this S-37 plane is just a prototype and it will never enter the service-wanna bet?
(Russian army is to much underfunded for that).
Are you kidding me? Why is it that Russian air force has quite a few of htem flying around?

Hey this is **** size contest: tell me what would do Russia if not had american's material and technological help ? Also tell me about your inteligence(Stirling doesn't count ). About your fleet...etc... Well, american contribution did help, but they helped everyone. The thing is, whole Europe was lying in ruins, while America was untouched. They had the resources and opportunity to help. But c'mon fellas, you are listing several battles and stuff, forgetting one fact: Poland was crushed (and don't tell me about being suddenly attacked, russia was by the idiotic order of Stalin completely unprepared, otherwise Germans wouldn't get so far in the beginning), and you don't even want to go into counting how many battles and different advancements russia came up with. And what in the hell is battle of England? Do you mean battle of Britain? Battle of Berlin? Whole SU and American armies were doing it from both fronts, with Britain of course, but I am sure that Poland did most of the dirty work.

Where is Mir space station or Buran space shuttle?
Well, after being used by the whole world, Mir certainly got old. Don't know about Buran, but Russia sends at least several rockets a year, and with America are just about the only two countrues that fly to space (international crews flying with them don't count). And how about yours? ;)

Show me any Russian new military jet constructed after 1990? (beside Su-3X family because those are new version of the old Su-27).
Does a Mercedes have to come up with some different kind of design to be successful? They just upgrade their ****. BTW, check out new MiG 1.3

I leave that answers to You, man 'cos I don't want to be cruel.Oh don't worry, you are not cruel, you are being retarded.

[tony6]

Why is it that Russian air force has quite a few of htem flying around?
You're kiddin', right?

MiG 1.3 ?
I wonder when do we see them in service?

[REMOV]

When I had some idea of AT ops, you were probably going to a school. ;) How old are you anyway?Personal attack, no arguments, huh? And you ask me about the age? Tell me more, about your maturity, ok? ;)

What I'm trying to let you know is the stuff you say is plainly ridiculous: "he trained Russian SF"; "was hired by...."; etc. I really don't know why you are so sure. I've even didn't noticed any racional arguments why is is not true, besides repeating over and over "ridiculous". Right, this is ridiculous I must admit.

Or do you think I don't know what's what in our military??I really don't know. But your knowledge has a holes, thats all.

Or do you know this subject better than me? :)I don't know. But I don't exclude such possibilty, too many emotions, too little logic.

Although, true experience comes in the battlefield. While I'm not aware of his involvement in Chechnya, Afghanistan, Angola, Ethiopia, Nicaragua, Kuba, etc. With AT/CT actions?! Ekhm... yes, you knowledge is really great. And still I didn't notice you know the difference between CT/AT work and SF.

Tell me, how are SF actions connected with CT/AT? In my opinion there are different trainings, different techniques and everything. Maybe I will learn something new?

Naturally Russian AT/CT units have huge experiences, but from Russian internal operations not form external missions. You mixed up two different things.

Well, I was right, wasn't I? It's not Russia - it's Belarus! There is a VERY BIG difference, don't you think? :) You ask about the pictures, so I answered - in my opinion this guys with KGB signs are from Belarusian unit. But that fact is nothing with common with you "right" of anything. I've posted pictures with guys from Russia, and form others units. I've never said that the second ones are from any Russian teams, again you've read something doesn't exists? Still have a problem with understanding? ;)

[tony6]

Texan:
I have never said anything about Polish space program cos there was no such program of course.

Mir space station is on the ocean's floor after outliving it original term of life 3 times...
So when are You going to launch next one?:) (never?)

Number of aircraft that entered service in the Russian airforce during 1990s... well, I do not know how many for sure, but I do know its more than in Poland...
I don't think so buddy. Look at Mi-28 for example. You keep talking about purchasing that helicopter for the last 10 years. How many of them are in the REAL service, huh?

You even may include the most modern Polish aircraft: 20+ year old, series A, Germany donated Mig 29.
1) Germans actually upgraded those planes
2) the most modern plane of Polish Air Forces will be F-16 blosk 52+ (we ordered 48 of them) first enter the service in 2005

As for a lughing at our air forces-tell me how many hours (average) does Russian pilot spend in the air per month?
Let me guess... 20?
:)
You see in NATO there are specific limits of hours that pilot must spend in the air per month. It is about 150-180 h (depend on the service).
We are still a poor country but our pilots are doing about 100-120 now.
Go to one of Your units and ask them:)

[Russian Texan]

Why is it that Russian air force has quite a few of htem flying around?
You're kiddin', right?

MiG 1.3 ?
I wonder when do we see them in service?

S 37 or SU 47 will never enter service in the russian airforce. It is a "test bed" for the next generation fighter so is Mig 1.42/1.44 MFI

http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142yy.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142mm.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig14201.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142gg.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142m.jpg

Here is the link to the site about it
http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142frames.htm

Which one do you like better Mig or Su?

[tony6]

S 37 or SU 47 will never enter service in the russian airforce. It is a "test bed" for the next generation fighter so is Mig 1.42/1.44 MFI
That's wat I was talking about. But tell me-is it reasonable to put so much money into "test bed" this size??
Jesus-this Mig is incredebly big! So is Su...
Look at the F-35 for example. It is small, universal and economic plane.
I bet that F-22 will be the last heavy American fighter.

[REMOV]

How exactly do pictures of Belorussian KGB tie into this argument?I don't know. I've posted also pictures with US units. Why don't ask me why those ones ties?

Not only you have lost an argument, you have also lost your face and credibility.Russian Texan, thats your own opinion, you've got right to have one, really. You have even told us that Earth is flat. But maybe try to argue with... well... more logical statements, that should works well.

I gave you a photos, and you gave me your beliefs (I didn't notice there any facts), right, and sort of some really stupid question. Thats all. And tell me more about credibility, ok? ;)


You lost, but you are not man enough to admit it, and are desperatly looking for the way out but your attemts are childish and pathetic...Sure, Russian, thats why I allegedly lost something, you're - not me - answering by personal attack and own beliefs ;) Nice, work man, keep'em going. Interesting type of discussion I must admit.

Take my advice on this: walk away without making anymore nonsense self- embarrassing posts, save whatever reputation you have left - not in my eyes though...I'm really sorry, but I must reject your advice. In my personal opinion it's senseless.

You may return to your delusional world of best in the world Polish CT instructors :lol:It's again your rather childish malice. But the fact is - except bunch of your collegue questions there's no any real arguments by your side. Only strong beliefs, that "is impossible that Pole teach Russian anything" right? And this is your whole conclussion.

Once again, tell me about your credibility. Again I hear you from the begining to the end ;)

[perdurabo]

[
Glider aerobatics you say...ok then
Sir, have you ever heard of the expression: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"?
Because that is exactly what you are doing, well actually you are not even bringing a knife, you brought a plywood sword...


I don't think any further comments are neccessary...
yep you don't have a clue about flying rofl rofl (tony precision flying occured as reply to statmet about born to bite dust and fly i just showed Małysz and Makula :) born to fly ppl) R-T you fly(i'm talking about piloting/parachuting/paragliding/etc)? or you are dust bitter?

RT i bet
http://img.interia.pl/wiadomosci/nimg/akcje186876.jpg
this guy fly more than your pilots rofl rofl rofl

[REMOV]

By posting those pictures Remov had only proven his lack of knowledge on the subgect or geographical incompetence because like it was noted before - Russia and Belorussia are two different countries :) Again we talk of credibility? OK, can you tell me, where I wrote that unit at the picture is from Russia? I missed something, or you again made a wrong pressuption? I'm really very curious where I proven my lack of knowledge. So, Russian Texan... any arguments or once again the only thing you're going to write would be some personal attacks and some sort of good advices? ;)

[perdurabo]

Why is it that Russian air force has quite a few of htem flying around?
You're kiddin', right?

MiG 1.3 ?
I wonder when do we see them in service?

S 37 or SU 47 will never enter service in the russian airforce. It is a "test bed" for the next generation fighter so is Mig 1.42/1.44 MFI

http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142yy.jpg
Here is the link to the site about it
http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142frames.htm

Which one do you like better Mig or Su?

this pic is'n even real rofl rofl it's computer made pic :)