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wholagun

11-07-2003, 01:07 PM

November 7, 2003 5:30 AM

Poland's thunder commandos hunt Saddam

By Wojciech Moskwa

BALTIC SEA COAST, Poland (*******) - Under cover of darkness and in complete silence Polish elite commandos stormed an offshore
Iraqi oil platform in the first days of the U.S.-led war to oust Saddam Hussein.

As they advanced towards the rig's control centre, it was far from clear if Saddam would use chemical weapons or even if the platform itself
was a ****y-trapped.

"Suddenly an old telephone we passed on the platform began to ring. We held our breath thinking the ringer could be a fuse mechanism for
a bomb," recalled an officer who took part in the mission.

"After a few rings it went quiet. Probably a wrong number," said the 31-year-old commando from his base on Poland's Baltic Sea coast.

His elite GROM unit was Poland's only active participant in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Under U.S. command, GROM captured one platform
with a second rig taken by U.S. Navy SEALs.

Special Forces unit GROM -- which means "thunder" in Polish -- may have also won a new lease on life during the Iraq war.

Months before a Polish-led international force took control of a zone in postwar Iraq in September, GROM cleared vessels from the port of
Umm Qasr and helped secure a dam near Baghdad.

Now GROM troops are helping the hunt for Saddam, Poland's top general, General Czeslaw Piatas, revealed in unexpectedly candid
comments.

Asked about Piatas's statement, GROM Commander Colonel Roman Polko smiled wryly and said: "We never discuss missions before
they end and rarely after they end."

SILENT FORCES

Despite GROM's success since its creation in 1990 to counter terror threats linked to Operation Bridge, which brought Soviet Jews to
Israel via Poland, it is paradoxically weak inside the military, reflecting the often-rigid views of the top brass.

Unlike the U.S. military which allowed some press access to their "silent forces", Poland did not confirm its involvement in Iraq until a
******* news photograph showed Polko alongside American troops celebrating in front of a mural of Saddam.

"That picture caused one hell of a storm, egos were bruised. Only public handshakes with leading civilian commanders began to settle
things a bit," said one GROM officer.

Retired General Slawomir Petelicki, founder and first commander of the unit -- which trained with U.S. and British special forces before
formerly communist Poland joined the NATO alliance in 1999 -- makes a more stinging assessment.

"This war saved GROM. Poland's generals do not understand GROM and wanted to split the unit between the army and navy," said
Petelicki, now a senior consultant at Ernst & Young.

"GROM's approach is based on the knowledge of experts who train the world's best special forces, while the generals who still rule in
Poland had their training in Soviet academies."

Elite foreign troops who have cooperated on missions with GROM also paint a positive picture of their Polish peers.

"We really hit it off with GROM. They are well-led, well-equipped and very professional. As good as any unit we've worked with in the (Iraq
war) coalition, perhaps better," Navy SEALs Lieutenant Commander Jay Richards told *******.

PRAISE

GROM has won praise for its missions, such as its operations in Haiti in 1994, and later in the war-torn Balkans.

"GROM needs freedom and flexibility to react quickly to a wide range of problems, while regular troops, amassed in large forces, need
unified action and thinking to be successful," said Polko, a graduate of the prestigious U.S. Army Rangers school.

This approach has led to differences in attitude, equipment, pay and dress -- GROM troops usually wear street clothes not army greens --
fuelling jealousy among the old-guard. GROM's heritage as an elite unit born outside the walls of the defence ministry further isolates the
force.

Less than five percent of candidates actually get into GROM, which in previous years has accepted women recruits.

"The introduction of women into our ranks has made us more versatile and has a positive balancing effect on troops, who work under
tremendous stress," said a lieutenant who leads a marine sub-unit at GROM, which also has a paratrooper outfit.

Polko said he tendered his resignation as GROM commander after hearing of military plans to curb its role but the scheme was quickly
withdrawn.

"The Iraq conflict showed that GROM is the only combat-ready and NATO-compatible unit in Poland's 150,000-strong army," said one
senior defence ministry source, who asked not to be named.

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=4424083

Whats this deal of splitting Grom into two groups, are they talking about Formouza (spelling) or something else.

Also.
"The Iraq conflict showed that GROM is the only combat-ready and NATO-compatible unit in Poland's 150,000-strong army," said one
senior defence ministry source, who asked not to be named. is that true? I know that GROM was the first to be NATO compatible, but nearly 5 years later we still don't have NATO standard units in the Polish army.

tony6

11-07-2003, 01:52 PM

perdurabo

11-07-2003, 01:55 PM

I don't know anything about splitting GROM they are dooing their job it would be stupid but there was few attempts from stiupid politics to close that formation.
Formoza are Navy comandos unit we don't hear lot about grom but about those guys we hear almoust nothing :]
I also heard that new group for anti terrorist operations will be made

As for Polish Army modernisation process is going on and on yes we have meany things to do but we have NATO capable units, it is stiupid press talk "ohoh Grom is so superb ohoh and others arent ohoh..." we got some about 120 Leo2A4 we got 2O.H.Perry frigates we build few MEKO100 Corvette buy AMV, F16C/D, CASA transport planes nad other cool stuff but the main modernisation goes to our C2 (Comand and Comunication) you don't need rifles on 5.56 NATO if you can't talk with you friends :]

duck

11-07-2003, 02:03 PM

I'll just repost this here because I'm wondering how Poland is going to finance the modernization process. Will there be significant cuts in troop levels?

From the Financial Times:

EU launches a scathing attack on Poland
By Jan Cienski in Warsaw
Published: November 5 2003 21:12 | Last Updated: November 5 2003 21:12

Poland on Wednesday came under a scathing attack by the European Commission which claimed the Warsaw government had all but stopped reforms just months ahead of Poland's accession to the European Union.

The report, the last before next May when 10 countries will join the EU, dispensed with any diplomatic niceties and instead described how Poland was failing to deliver on implementing reforms required for membership.

The Commission also did not shy away from piling pressure on Turkey, insisting it should reach a settlement by next year over the divided island of Cyprus, whose northern part Turkey occupied in 1974.

Failing any settlement, Günter Verheugen, enlargement commissioner, made it clear Cyprus could become an obstacle for Turkey's bid to start formal accession negotiations by early 2005.

This was despite last minute telephone calls by Abdullah Gul, Turkish foreign minister, who asked Mr Verheugen to soften the language on Cyprus before making the reports public on Wednesday.

"Our message of Turkey [over the recent reforms] is positive," said Mr Verheugen. "As regards Cyprus, we are trying to create a political fact. A lack of a solution to the Cyprus conflict will be a serious obstacle to Turkey's efforts. It is an incentive for Turkey to find a solution," he said.

The tough language on Turkey reflects a growing concern that when Cyprus joins next year, part of an EU member state will be under foreign occupation. Mr Gul said Turkey "will make a great effort to solve the problem before May 1, 2004."

The annual reports by the enlargement commission headed by Mr Verheugen monitor in detail how all the candidate countries are preparing for accession.

Poland, along with Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Malta and Cyprus, will join on May 1, 2004. Bulgaria may be ready to join by 2007 while Romania, which still hopes to join along with Bulgaria, was on Wednesday bluntly told it could not be considered a functioning market economy.

The blistering attack on Poland reflects serious concern, as well as disappointment in the Commission that had placed great store on the largest of the ten new entrants to make a final push on reform ahead of accession. "The reform path has nearly come to a halt since last year's report," said the Commission. It said Poland had shown "reluctance" to reduce its public expenditure, had relaxed fiscal policy and was doing little to rein in the government deficit. The promised restructuring of heavy industry and agriculture "has been modest." The pace of privatisation had "stalled".

Polish diplomats put a brave face on the report. "It's a fact of life. We knew from the beginning what were the weakest points of Poland's internal reforms," said Daniel Rotfeld, secretary of state at the foreig

perdurabo

11-07-2003, 02:14 PM

Well we can't cut on the military ther is meany babling abut our poor condition the biggest hole in our budget is administration and meany projects of stiupid politics and we got EU on our back their "financial aid" is a joke i've worked for some "european" istiution and belive me EU is going down in economics they put money on so stiupid things IMO they are new face of comunism
back to thread AMW -Agencja Mienia Wojskowego (don't know how it is in english) sells property (airfilds, boots tanks even submarines) that is'nt needed by military now and that money goes to modernisation

Herrmannek

11-07-2003, 02:18 PM

So called "senior defence ministry source" is probably former minister of defence (Mr. Komorowski) . He is now in the parlament's minority and he's critisizing Miller's goverment on every field (meaning he's talking bull****).
As for the ideas of splitting Grom into two groups-it is the past (hopefully)-so don't worry about that:)

Miller's goverment and our "beloved" President are BS* more than Komorowski.

Fucckin commies. If I had choice I would send them all to Cuba where is their place :) .

wholagun

11-07-2003, 04:31 PM

but the main modernisation goes to our C2 (Comand and Comunication)
What kind of equipment are we talking about who, and who makes it.

120 Leo2A4 Hey, I know we got them from Germany but 128 German used tanks, thats all. Why can't we just buy 100 or so new Leopards 2A6's at least we'd have something to send to Iraq not to mention a good quality tank.

rifles on 5.56 NATO if you can't talk with you friends Man....I was reading in an article some time ago can't find it now that Iraqi's are making fun of us for using the same guys are them. They don't know any better that we use Beryl but it kinda resembles AK. When are we getting new machine guns I always see the old Soveit machine guns on the Honkers. Is there any tender coming up to buy new machine guns? Also, how long they planning on keeping the Beryl 15 - 20 yrs?

Also, I heard a rumour from a friend that Poland after it buys the F-16's may also want to purchase the Joint Strike Fighter in the near future, is this true or is it just a rumour.

perdurabo

11-07-2003, 05:02 PM

well
1. mainly Polish but it's so complex tons of new electronic Polish French American etc...
2.i don't think buying is good way we have BUMAR that builds tanks so mayby we could buy license for it but we have good engineers so if we don't want to wast them we should make our own tank:)
but we don't have enough money to put in line new tanks first we put AMV next tanks
3. beryl didn't shoot don't know about it's relaible but AK family is good at it so it will work for few years but we should build new weapon system (IMO with balanced recoil system like Korshakovs) and beryl should be a bridge to it:)
4. if we have enough money. in 2008-2012 we have replace whole fleet of MIG29 and SU22 so if we have F16 JSF would be good but who knows:)

wholagun

11-07-2003, 05:17 PM

What about heavy machine gun, I don't know what we use but its Soviet. Why not just get M240? At least for the troops in Iraq. Then later phase in the heavy machine guns to the rest of the army.

tony6

11-07-2003, 05:19 PM

The reason is very simple-we have our own gun manufacturers and they also want to earn money.
As for machine guns: the newest Polish m.g. is UKM-2000 (it's based on Russian PKM).

wholagun

11-07-2003, 05:26 PM

The reason is very simple-we have our own gun manufacturers and they also want to earn money I understand your point. Correct me if im wrong, but we don't have nor ever had good gun manufacturers. Germany on the other hand H&K, Austria Styer, Swiss Sig. From my understanding we never had good gun manufacturers, thus better to get good quality then ok quality, especially when it comes to security. Also, if we buy foriegn guns we get investment and tech trasfers which benifit our army/manufacturers.
Also you got any pics of the UKM 2000?

tony6

11-07-2003, 05:28 PM

Some of Polish new guns:
granade launcher GA:
http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/grafika/granatnik_4.gif
..and the newets 0.5 cal sharpshooter rifle:
http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/grafika/wkw_1.jpg
http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/grafika/wkw_2.jpg

perdurabo

11-07-2003, 05:32 PM

tony6

11-07-2003, 05:37 PM

Correction-we had some very good hand gun types before WWII (VIS pistol, Mors submachine gun or engineer Maroszek's wz. 38 rifle and wz. 35 anti tank rifle). After the war we were forced to produced Russian-made weapons (red big brother, man!:) It takes time-that's all.
And no-I don't have any picture of UKM-2000.
REMOV-will You be so kind?:)

wholagun

11-07-2003, 05:57 PM

Im glad i stared this thread, this allows me to ask all the questions that have been lingering in my head for some time now.

What about helicopters are we getting any large transport helicopters such as the Black Hawks.. Right now are they using the WA-3 Sokol in Iraq or an older version.

I know that there were talks of getting the Super Cobra but we decided to upgrade our existing Sokols.

tony6

11-07-2003, 06:07 PM

Right now we are planning to buy a squadron of transport helicopters (Mi-8, Black Hawk or something like that) for air cavalry unit (25th brigade).
Also there are some plans to purchase about 6 Chinooks.
I don't know which version of Sokol are we using in Iraq (W-3WA?)

Herrmannek

11-07-2003, 06:14 PM

Polish Air Forces slightly outdated:
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/poland/polaf4.htm

duck

11-07-2003, 07:16 PM

That grenade launcher, is it normally operated like the russian AGS with a two/three-man crew or by a single soldier?

duck

11-07-2003, 09:07 PM

Editorial by a former polish cabinet secretary in the Washington Post today:

Losing The New Europe

By Radek Sikorski
Friday, November 7, 2003; Page A31

Throughout the transatlantic marital spat over Iraq, Central Europeans have remained friendly to the United States. The new democracies risked the wrath of France and Germany, whose favors they need as they enter the European Union, and they backed up their words with deeds. Polish special forces have fought in the port of Umm Kasr and in more than 60 operations since. Yesterday Poland suffered its first casualty: Maj. Hieronim Kupczyk was shot dead on the road between U.S. Camp Dogwood and Poland's headquarters at Babylon. Soldiers from Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia and Ukraine serve in the Polish sector between Basra and Baghdad, providing relief for about 10,000 U.S. troops. Yet unless the United States acts, this may be the last emergency in which it can count on Central European support.

These are countries that have good historical reasons to feel comfortable with U.S. leadership. Thanks to President Woodrow Wilson, Poland was resurrected and Czechoslovakia created after World War I. Ronald Reagan supported dissident movements behind the Iron Curtain while many West Europeans appeased the Soviet Union. The United States insisted on confirming the permanence of borders in Europe at the time of German unification, and it insisted that NATO embrace Central Europe when the EU was dragging its feet. Central Europeans' feelings of gratitude are enhanced by the fact that the current generation of their leaders, whether post-Communist or post-dissident, were brought up on Radio Free Europe broadcasts and Fulbright scholarships.

But it would be a mistake to think that they shared all of the United States' concerns about Iraq. While many in the region have sympathy with human rights arguments, most never felt threatened by Saddam Hussein, and they were skeptical of intelligence reports about his weapons of mass destruction. As a result, the public in the most pro-American country in Europe, Poland, opposes military involvement in Iraq 2 to 1 -- and that was before any casualties. Governments have chosen to participate nevertheless, because -- unlike some West Europeans -- they do not feel threatened by the United States, and they support U.S. leadership. They hoped their participation would produce feelings of reciprocal commitment: Surely, most believed, the United States would want to show that it pays to be America's friend.

Now it seems that Central Europeans will be disappointed. Six months after the invasion, companies from the region are still on the sidelines as U.S. giants move in. Poland and Bulgaria used to employ tens of thousands of people in Iraq, building roads, factories and electricity grids. Both had hoped that by siding with the United States they could recover some of the billions of dollars Iraq had never paid them for their work. Instead, they are being pressured to write off the money, even though the debt is several times bigger in proportion to their gross domestic products than what Iraq owed the United States.

Central Europeans had also hoped that the United States would help them modernize their militaries. Because it's so much cheaper to send foreigners to Iraq than Americans, this seemed a good time to help these armies come closer to NATO standards, which would make them more easily deployable alongside U.S. forces. Instead, these countries' investments in defense are being postponed to finance operations in Iraq.

But even more upsetting to Central Europeans is the way they are treated by the U.S. visa process. If we are such good allies, they ask, why can't we enter the United States without visas, as the French or the Germans? While Americans travel without visas to most of Central Europe, natives pay $100 for the privilege of applying for a U.S. visa, effectively subsidizing the U.S. immigration service, with no guarantee of receiving a visa. Polish newspapers are full of stories of students deported in manacles and famous actors prevented from working on Broadway. Small issues sometimes have a political effect out of all proportion to the cost of dealing with them, and this is one.

Last but not least, President Bush's words on Russia have been noted with dismay. "I respect President Putin's vision for Russia," Bush said at the recent summit with Vladimir Putin -- "a country in which democracy and freedom and rule of law thrive." I wager a bottle of Bollinger that this sentence will one day embarrass George W. Bush as much as Vice President Henry Wallace's wartime comparison of Kolyma -- the vast Soviet gulag in which millions of slave workers toiled -- to his native Montana. Every instance of unwarranted praise for Putin's increasingly authoritarian regime resurrects the specter of Yalta and undercuts faith in the United States.

As of next year, Western Europe's pull in Central Europe will multiply. Millions of motorists will see signs marking EU-financed infrastructure projects; millions of farmers will get EU agricultural subsidy checks in the mail; and tens of thousands of journalists, scientists and academics will become eligible for EU grants. If the United States wants to remain a player, it better get into the game.

The writer, Poland's former deputy minister for defense and for foreign affairs, is executive director of the American Enterprise Institute's New Atlantic Initiative. He will answer questions about this column during a Live Online discussion at 2 p.m. today at www.washingtonpost.com.

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

Deuterium

11-07-2003, 09:34 PM

Gotta agree with getting rid of the PK. Try and do fire and maneuver with a PK as compared to ANY machine gun with a disintegrating link belt, night and day bro.....

CX20

11-07-2003, 09:48 PM

Gotta agree with getting rid of the PK. Try and do fire and maneuver with a PK as compared to ANY machine gun with a disintegrating link belt, night and day bro.....

I've seen a few photos of the PK but have never actually seen one in the flesh. Kind of reminds me of the old GPMG. How heavy is the PK compared to other MGs? Is it reasonably accurate when fired from the hip/waist, and can it be fired from the shoulder unsupported? Any general pros and cons?

I'm just curious, I've handled just about all western MGs but never seen a PK. I'm guessing that giving your occupation you might be familiar with it!

wholagun

11-13-2003, 08:18 PM

Royal

11-14-2003, 03:10 AM

I've seen a few photos of the PK but have never actually seen one in the flesh. Kind of reminds me of the old GPMG. How heavy is the PK compared to other MGs? Is it reasonably accurate when fired from the hip/waist, and can it be fired from the shoulder unsupported? Any general pros and cons?

I'm just curious, I've handled just about all western MGs but never seen a PK. I'm guessing that giving your occupation you might be familiar with it!

Size and weight wise, it's closer to the old L4 LMG (7.62 Bren gun) (obviously belt fed though). I did a couple of CQB lanes with one years ago and the targets were going down, but it's not a bit of kit I'd choose.

I've never seen it fired unsupported from the shoulder, but I don't see why it couldn't be (if you're big/strong enough). I remember a PW at Lympstone whose party piece was firing the L7 (GPMG) from the shoulder and getting a 3" grouping - the guy had arms like Garth ;)

perdurabo

11-14-2003, 07:32 AM

A recent post about the A400M has sparked a question. I friend of mine told me that he heard Poland was getting this kind of transport, I figured he was talking about the Spanish airtransports we got. Thus my question, are there planes in the future to get the A400M or is it just the Spanish airtransports?

Also, how are we trasporting equipment to Iraq? Is the US doing it for us?

Lastly, what is the deal with the Polish Army corruption story, can someone explain whats goen on.
Well
1.we bought 6 CASA something:) (Kraków -Balice airbase)
2.we are going to buy used C130K/K-30(also Kraków)
3.there is also thought about purchaising few A400M/C17/An70(?) for strategic air transport (Powidz airbase)
4.also about few UTL Ships(Uniwersalny Transportowiec Logistyczny-Universal Logistic transport Ship Ro-Ro type) witch could lead to Desant ship and Helicopter ship...
About PK it ive heard that GROM uses it with special forward handgrip and material amunintion case...

tony6

11-14-2003, 09:39 AM

We bought 8 CASA-295 (2 are already operational).
Right now we are about to purchase 6 C-130 aircrafts (next year?).

As for corruption-somebody wanted to earn few dollars extra in equipment for Polish troops in Iraq auctions.
They arrested about 12 people.

wholagun

11-14-2003, 12:54 PM

there is also thought about purchaising few A400M/C17/An70(?) for strategic air transport (Powidz airbase)

So its not for certain then right, its just speculation. And, any idea how much such a purchase would cost and how many planes.

perdurabo

11-14-2003, 01:05 PM

up to 6 but we are soo poooorrr you know.. ;-) first we have to buy VIP planes for our Gayasspolitics can visit GayUnion

wholagun

11-14-2003, 01:17 PM

Kurwa, I hate Miller that communist. This summer Im goen to Poland, first time in 12 years. Im sure alot has changed.

Herrmannek

11-14-2003, 01:51 PM

I'm sure Miller and his felows are scumbags, but I wouldn't say so about EU. We must be aware that EU isn't charity organization and we must fight like lions for our buisnesses, then we can earn more joinig than staying out.

Yup lot's changed but must imporatnt: Your VISA will work here now :)

perdurabo

11-14-2003, 02:39 PM

Well hermanek i had "plesure" to work for EU for this vacation (praktyki - i don't know how to say it in english?) and belive me if they won't stop spending money like they do now whole EU is going stright way down to socialism and i don't want to live in comunistic country. Few stiupid ideas we menaged to destroy but how meany EUmoney go to stupid things?

wholagun

11-14-2003, 03:32 PM

Your VISA will work here now

Ja jestem Polakem. I immigrated to Canada. I have a Polish Passport. (takes 6 F***en months to the passport though, so much bull**** paper work and other bureaucracy). HOLY CRAP! In Canada it take two weeks.

EU will help us rebuild and give us some money, help make our economy better. Look at is this way, good economy, more for our military.. :D

Herrmannek

11-14-2003, 03:36 PM

Your VISA will work here now

Ja jestem Polakem. I immigrated to Canada.

EU will help us rebuild and give us some money, help make our economy better. Look at is this way, good economy, more for our military.. :D

I know you are Pole :) . How you emigrated with parents or on your own?

wholagun

11-14-2003, 03:37 PM

With parents. I left (Boleslawiec) Poland when I was 4, lived in Germany (Hamburg) for 1.5 years moved to Canada. (we wanted to go to Australia but they didn't take any more Poles) Oh VISA as in credit card.. :cantbeli:

perdurabo

11-14-2003, 05:25 PM

EU dont make our economics better look at France and Germany the have almoust 0%GNP growth we still have better so we don't need rebuild only what Polish economy need is lower taxes and beter economic law and stability in that two things every nev goverment here change taxes and economic law it's so stiupid :cantbeli: i know i'm studying economic without this leftist **** on my back i would be now menager/senior partner in few firms but no they allways had to **** somthing.

Herrmannek

11-15-2003, 03:28 AM

tony6

11-15-2003, 06:12 AM

wholagun: 12 years?
Jeeeez, man-now it is TOTALLY different country!
You will see on Your own:)

Shadow

11-15-2003, 10:13 AM

@wholagun

Take care of your car! ;)

Herrmannek

11-15-2003, 10:28 AM

@wholagun

Take care of your car! ;)

Move to Poland your car already is here :)

REMOV

11-15-2003, 10:43 AM

Hey almost everyone in Poland studies econommics :), all of us can't be managers someone must do that dirty usefull works here. :)Sure. The same guys who don't compain about anything like you.

I completely don't understand my fellow countrymen, which always declared annoyence, complaines, complaines, complaines about everything. "The government is bad, the state is bad, the army is bad, the president is bad, the prime minister is even worst, bla, bla, bla..." and maybe someday, somewhere try look at youself in the distance. Perfect? Ideal? Hardworking? Respecting your time and time of others? About 80% of your letters here DEAR Poles are just complains. The completely lost of time, energy, money etc.

Besides - who is interesting of Polish internal policy, budget and so. Hard to imagine? OK, suppose a guy from Malawi (you know WHERE the Malawi is?) comes here and starts to complains on his budget, Mr. XXX the politician from ZZZ party, well known in Malawi, but completely strange to anyone else and so on? Who cares, hermannek? So interesting in Malawi internal policy? No? Why? You do the same.

Sorry, when I read such things you wrote before I lose my cool. Maybe thats why because regardless of who ruling the country I'm intending to do my work good. You know democracy rules - even if I don't agree (I don't) with some decisions of my President or Prime Minister or don't elected (also I don't) them, I show them respect. Because they are representative of my country. Howgh.

And, hermannek, some information for you - there are no Communist in power in Poland. Such ideology (like fascism) is unconstitutional. Like other countries we have social democratic parties.

Herrmannek

11-15-2003, 11:41 AM

Hey almost everyone in Poland studies econommics :), all of us can't be managers someone must do that dirty usefull works here. :)Sure. The same guys who don't complain about anything like you.

So why you complain about me? are you economics student :) ?
No bad feelings this was Joke.

I completely don't understand my fellow countrymen, which always declared annoyence, complaines, complaines, complaines about everything. "The government is bad, the state is bad, the army is bad, the president is bad, the prime minister is even worst, bla, bla, bla..." and maybe someday, somewhere try look at youself in the distance. Perfect? Ideal? Hardworking? Respecting your time and time of others? About 80% of your letters here DEAR Poles are just complains. The completely lost of time, energy, money etc.

Lot's of bitter feelings I see here. But my Complaints are only about President, Goverment & our beloved Leszek Miller and related. I'm surre not about everything. There is more things I didn't complain than I did complain.
I didn't complain about our army, nor our equipment, nor our engagement in Iraq, nor our soldiers...
80% of posts are complains? Imposible, 80% of my posts are jokes :) and I made close to half of polish posts here (wich realy isn't thing to be proud about ( esspecialy 90% of my posts is off-topic :( ).

Besides - who is interesting of Polish internal policy, budget and so. Hard to imagine? OK, suppose a guy from Malawi (you know WHERE the Malawi is?) comes here and starts to complains on his budget, Mr. XXX the politician from ZZZ party, well known in Malawi, but completely strange to anyone else and so on? Who cares, hermannek? So interesting in Malawi internal policy? No? Why? You do the same.

Perdurbao, Me....................Me :). You are right almost noone, but few is or potenitialy is, so if they respond or ask questions....

Sorry, when I read such things you wrote before I lose my cool. Maybe thats why because regardless of who ruling the country I'm intending to do my work good. You know democracy rules - even if I don't agree (I don't) with some decisions of my President or Prime Minister or don't elected (also I don't) them, I show them respect. Because they are representative of my country. Howgh.

Cool down REMOV. I'm happy that there is still many people with principles in Poland. I know that democracy rules. Don't want go deep into politics, so I just say why I don't have respect to Miller's and Kwasniewski's band. They are old "Aparatczyki" wich havn't did anything good to Poland then or do now, if they had any respect to Poland I would have respect to them. Respect is earned not issued REMOV.

And, hermannek, some information for you - there are no Communist in power in Poland. Such ideology (like fascism) is unconstitutional. Like other countries we have social democratic parties.

I know that REMOV :) . But people are Communists to their graveboard, unlisting from party doesn't change anything in that matter. Some parabola: This is like Dog who bite human. If he did that once you don't belive him again.

perdurabo

11-15-2003, 12:13 PM

nobody is perfect :| i know when i make mistake and when is my fault and i don't complain i'm little bit angry because few $$$ just go away beacuse of stupidity of our gov. but i also know that there are worse countrys to live and i don't want to move to other than Poland. Poland is my home and i love it!
But also i can;t understand ppl saying "oh it will be so great when we will be part of EU oh so much money they gave us...". I have to work hard, for every single succes i made that's why i'm little bit nervous when i hear crap about giving money, and thats why i'm angry when i work hard to complete something and some ****head f***s it.
But again it's international board dedicated to military so i stay silence in this matter.

perdurabo

11-15-2003, 12:17 PM

wholagun

11-15-2003, 02:22 PM

@wholagun

Take care of your car! ;)

Move to Poland your car already is here :)
Go to Russia or Germany Polish National treasures are already there! ;-) (no harm feelings but when i hear something like.... :cantbeli: )

rofl Its already there rofl

Shadow, Im goen to Germany too. To Kassel to study German for 1 month.