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kutter
11-09-2003, 05:09 PM
http://www.thestar.com/
Nov. 9, 2003. 10:09 AM

An Iraqi insurgent tells why he kills
Young fighter says it's not for religion or for Saddam

VIVIENNE WALT
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

TIKRIT—The attacks against American soldiers here often begin like this: A taxi stops briefly on a street corner. The driver passes whispered messages with code names for locations and times, then whizzes off down the road.

"We have special ways to send orders, with passwords that some taxi drivers know," says Omar Saleh, a 22-year-old fighter in a clandestine group called Muhammad's Army.

The resistance group formed last May in this "Sunni Triangle" stronghold of Saddam Hussein, about 160 kilometres north of Baghdad.

"The driver meets me in the street, and tells me where to go and at what time," says Saleh — a guerrilla name he has chosen in order to conceal his identity from strangers.

After six months of the U.S.-led occupation, insurgents waging their low-intensity war received a fresh supply of weapons in early October, according to Saleh, who says he doesn't know from where the shipment had come.

The arsenal included valuable new items that offered many new potential targets and a greater fighting range.

New 160-millimetre mortars allow Tikrit's fighters to strike military targets from a longer distance than in previous months, he says. And anti-tank land mines offer more possibilities for attacks.

The U.S. Army lost its first top-line battle tank in post-invasion Iraq on Oct. 28, when a 69-tonne Abrams M1A2 tracked vehicle, armed with a 120-millimetre cannon and equipped for digitized communications, hit an anti-tank mine on a road near Balad, about 65 kilometres south of Tikrit.

Two 4th Infantry Division soldiers were reported killed and one wounded in the explosion.

Before the big tank was taken out, it had seemed that the Iraqi fighters' arsenal would be unable to pierce American armour.

An army Black Hawk helicopter was shot down by insurgents on Friday, killing all six U.S. soldiers aboard and capping the bloodiest seven days in Iraq for Americans since the fall of Baghdad.

The week's carnage began last Sunday, when 15 American soldiers died after the Chinook helicopter in which they were travelling was hit, apparently by a heat-seeking surface-to-air missile.

Saddam was thought to have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of these SA7 missiles when his army collapsed on April 9.

Saleh says his group did not fire the missiles, but he believes they remain in plentiful supply.

"We have everything," he says. "Each group has its own store of weapons and they are responsible for keeping their own weapons cache.

"We have huge numbers of weapons."

Given the secret nature of Iraq's resistance groups, Saleh's account of Tikrit's insurgents cannot be confirmed independently.

He spoke to a reporter only after being introduced by a mutual acquaintance he has known for many years.

Arranging to meet on a sidewalk of this city of 75,000 people, Saleh spoke in the reporter's moving car — the only place in Tikrit he believed would be safe enough to discuss the ongoing war against U.S. troops.

He insisted that the reporter wear an Arabic headscarf and abaya floor-length coat, to disguise the fact he was meeting with a Western woman.

Tikrit, headquarters for the 4th Infantry Division, has seen almost daily attacks on American soldiers for months.

Saleh, a stocky man in a well-ironed checked shirt and black trousers, says his contact ordered two such attacks during the last week in October.

The first came on Oct. 26, when he and three others were ordered to meet after midnight to attack a military base outside town with hand grenades and mortars.

"We could hear the soldiers scream," he recalls.

The second attack came three days later, when he and nine others converged on another base and lobbed mortars over the wall.

From a distance, Saleh was not certain what they had hit.

He and his friends had been members of one of Saddam's crack Fedayeen units from the time they were teenagers and were assigned combat duties in the war. They were left adrift in April, when American troops stormed north from Baghdad and seized Tikrit — the last holdout — ending Saddam's rule in his hometown.

With no job and an intense distaste for the Americans occupying Tikrit, Saleh signed up for battle weeks later.

Also knitted into the underground web of fighters, Saleh says, are about 75 foreigners, mostly Syrians, who have been distributed among several groups.

"They have been here for months."

U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said last Sunday that U.S. forces had captured "between 200 and 300" foreign insurgents "and we've killed a number of others."

Pentagon officials say they believe the mounting daily attacks against American soldiers are organized regionally, with little sophisticated command and control structures.

More troubling for the U.S. military, however, is that the insurgents appear to be better organized and armed than in previous months.

"It's getting worse in the sense that, as today, the enemies of freedom are using more sophisticated techniques," U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer told CNN's Late Edition on Sunday.

"This was a new one," he said, referring to the twin-propeller Chinook helicopter that was shot down near Falluja.

"There is a much more sophisticated use of improvised explosive devices — standoff weapons."


Saleh agrees that the insurgents' loose-knit command structure is improving its skills and accuracy.

He says about 600 volunteers are based around Tikrit, organized in "divisions" of about 100 men, with a commander controlling each division.

A sheikh, who Saleh would not name, also issues orders: "He is a religious man who believes in jihad."

The fighters themselves are not religious, however. Most members of his division are former Fedayeen fighters like him.

"We all know each other from before," Saleh says. "This is not religious. It is also not in order to support Saddam."

Rather, he explains, the reason for the attacks in Tikrit is the continued control of the city by American troops.

"The purpose of fighting them is to get them to leave the cities," he says. "They arrived as liberators and turned into occupiers."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vivienne Walt is a freelance journalist on assignment in Iraq.

jdbjdb
11-09-2003, 05:17 PM
After six months of the U.S.-led occupation, insurgents waging their low-intensity war received a fresh supply of weapons in early October, according to Saleh, who says he doesn't know from where the shipment had come
Iran, Syria and possibly Jordan.

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
11-09-2003, 05:22 PM
Theres so much ammo and weapons still laying around from the war it wouldnt be hard to go grab a few here and there. Most likely they are getting help from Iran and Syria.

Ratamacue
11-09-2003, 05:32 PM
"The purpose of fighting them is to get them to leave the cities," he says. "They arrived as liberators and turned into occupiers."

I don't think he realizes what would happen if all the troops in Iraq just kind of left...however, I can respect these guerrillas in that they fight against soldiers rather than civilians.

spier
11-09-2003, 05:38 PM
I don't think he realizes what would happen if all the troops in Iraq just kind of left...however, I can respect these guerrillas in that they fight against soldiers rather than civilians.And you do?

Vance
11-09-2003, 05:58 PM
Totaly ****ty ****ing chaos, that's what. Even worse than now.

Seiyuuki
11-09-2003, 06:00 PM
I don't think he realizes what would happen if all the troops in Iraq just kind of left...however, I can respect these guerrillas in that they fight against soldiers rather than civilians.And you do?

And you do?

spier
11-09-2003, 06:16 PM
I don't think he realizes what would happen if all the troops in Iraq just kind of left...however, I can respect these guerrillas in that they fight against soldiers rather than civilians.And you do?

And you do? :roll:

No. You see, since it is somewhat impossible to look into the future then NOBODY knows what will happen.

Vance, look up "rhetorical question".

Ratamacue
11-09-2003, 06:27 PM
Spier, do you think that everything will be all nice and peaceful if all the troops there just left? Remember what happened in Baghdad after the regime was toppled?

I'm not saying that I know exactly what would happen, but rather how badly things would get fvcked up. I think it's rather obvious that things would go very quickly to chaos if everyone just left, and it doesn't take a psychic to predict that. So stop trying to pick fights and use some common sense.

spier
11-09-2003, 06:34 PM
Spier, do you think that everything will be all nice and peaceful if all the troops there just left? Remember what happened in Baghdad after the regime was toppled?

I'm not saying that I know exactly what would happen, but rather how badly things would get fvcked up. I think it's rather obvious that things would go very quickly to chaos if everyone just left, and it doesn't take a psychic to predict that. So stop trying to pick fights and use some common sense.No. Replace "would" with "could" and you can still have a chance to walk away without looking like an idiot.

Marxist203
11-09-2003, 06:34 PM
I reckon if US troops left there would be some sort of a power struggle between all the various "Divisions" of Guerilla fighters...I could envision it turning into something similar to Afghanistan, groups becoming loyal to various Warlords and such, but Im no expert.

usa320
11-09-2003, 06:39 PM
And Europe would brand us as quitters, and piss and moan.

They bitch that we are there, but if we were to pull out they would bitch more.

Ratamacue
11-09-2003, 06:39 PM
Once again spier, things WOULD (not COULD, but WOULD) go to chaos because that's exactly what happened in Baghdad after the regime was toppled. Remember all the looting? Things weren't so nice. You seem to be on this forum solely to pick fights with those of us that support the war. Do you really think that what I've said is that controversial and lacking foundation or do you just want to argue?

spier
11-09-2003, 06:55 PM
Once again spier, things WOULD (not COULD, but WOULD) go to chaos because that's exactly what happened in Baghdad after the regime was toppled. Remember all the looting? Things weren't so nice. You seem to be on this forum solely to pick fights with those of us that support the war. Do you really think that what I've said is that controversial and lacking foundation or do you just want to argue?A man claiming to have the ability to predict the future is something most people would call controversial.

To make you understand my point, I have devised a ****ty, but plausible, alternative scenario to your "OMFG! Were all gonna die!" prophecies: The fedayeen grows during the US occupation to become the supremely dominant force in Iraq. When the US leaves they immediately seize power and reinstate Saddam and his totalitarian rule. Saddam likes to kill people. Knowing this, looters understand that robbing their own country might not be in their best interest.. THE END!

****, nearly forgot: Idiot.

rokus2595
11-09-2003, 07:06 PM
What if americans leave iraq?? who's to know what might happen after...but then again that is to the iraqis to decide, not the americans.

Deuterium
11-09-2003, 07:22 PM
The one thing that I am 100% sure of is that there will be free elections and the Iraqi people will govern their country. Will we be there in 50 years after the war like we are still in Germany and Japan, maybe. But the key point will be our influence on the country. I don't think anyone would argue that we still are occupiers of the government and countrymen of Germany and Japan.

Dalleer
11-09-2003, 10:38 PM
Well, I'm just happy to finally hear someone from the other side telling a story on why he's fighting.

Not exactly happy to hear of the large amounts of weapons that the resistance is carrying, still...

Durandal
11-09-2003, 11:45 PM
Anyone that takes this explanation is a fool. The guy was former Fayadeen...a radical. The guy is an idiot. The smartest thing ANY Iraqi who wants a peaceful country with a democratic rule (I do not care if it is pro- U.S. or not) would be t o allow the United States to rebuild their country, never pay their debt, and go on living...a normaly life.

This guy wants to crap on that.

No, he is a loon. His explanation does nothing to answer the real reason why he is fighting. To make sure that there is chaos, confusion, lack of a central authority, and a return to a dictatorship.

Dalleer
11-10-2003, 02:43 AM
Agreed on the man's motives. I can't really say that he would have any real reason to attack the US troops there but I suppose that as long as "it's american in the middle east" it needs to be destroyed in their opinion.

And, Mr. Fedayeen here also seems to forget that its because of the US that "bad Saddam" is no longer in power, so go figure on these people's agenda...


"They arrived as liberators and turned into occupiers."

I see...

Adri
11-10-2003, 02:54 AM
And Europe would brand us as quitters, and piss and moan.

They bitch that we are there, but if we were to pull out they would bitch more.

that is what we are made for ;)

StarvingStudent47
11-10-2003, 03:11 AM
Once again spier, things WOULD (not COULD, but WOULD) go to chaos because that's exactly what happened in Baghdad after the regime was toppled. Remember all the looting? Things weren't so nice. You seem to be on this forum solely to pick fights with those of us that support the war. Do you really think that what I've said is that controversial and lacking foundation or do you just want to argue?A man claiming to have the ability to predict the future is something most people would call controversial.

To make you understand my point, I have devised a ****ty, but plausible, alternative scenario to your "OMFG! Were all gonna die!" prophecies: The fedayeen grows during the US occupation to become the supremely dominant force in Iraq. When the US leaves they immediately seize power and reinstate Saddam and his totalitarian rule. Saddam likes to kill people. Knowing this, looters understand that robbing their own country might not be in their best interest.. THE END!

****, nearly forgot: Idiot.

If I stick a corn fork in my left ********, I will scream. Not "I might scream." I will scream. Am I an idiot for claiming to predict the future? Do you consider my prediction "controversial"?

The certainty of violent anarchy in Iraq if we just "pull up and go" is not contested by ANYONE, from Kofi Annan to Donald Rumsfeld. And we're not just talking about looters. We're talking about Somalia-style militias who will fight for territory and control. This is INEVITABLE if we do not get a stable Iraqi government up and running before we pull out. Your theory that looters will ponder the consequences of their actions ten years down the line--and then decide to give up a life of crime--is an absolute pipe dream.

Chris1
11-10-2003, 08:07 AM
After six months of the U.S.-led occupation, insurgents waging their low-intensity war received a fresh supply of weapons in early October, according to Saleh, who says he doesn't know from where the shipment had come
Iran, Syria and possibly Jordan.
Gee, how'd ya figure that out, FINALLY LOOK AT A FOOKIN MAP DID YA?

ShotOver
11-10-2003, 08:08 AM
Umm.. this man is admitting to killing our boys.

I think the man giving the interview should of put a .45 in this pathethic excuse of mans head, and done us all a favour.

One less terrorist to worry about.

Durandal
11-10-2003, 08:32 AM
Umm.. this man is admitting to killing our boys.

I think the man giving the interview should of put a .45 in this pathethic excuse of mans head, and done us all a favour.

One less terrorist to worry about.

Not a bad idea.

ShotOver
11-10-2003, 08:36 AM
I think we should ask all the who like Americans to go out into the desert and bring their best things with them, then blow the **** out of the Iraqi towns.. killing everyone there, then we should kill all the ones out in the desert for lying to us

WARPIG
11-10-2003, 09:16 AM
In the off chance that there might be some of you that aren't interested in just pissing in each other's coffee... has anyone thought that maybe the whole issue has nothing to do with any politics or any thing remotely patriotic? What is an Ex Fedayeen guerilla supposed to do after he is "laid off?"
Maybe there is a position at the local burger joint working the drive through. "Yes, if you super size that we give you a free RPG!"
These guys are out of work, with no other job skills, and have been getting paid to create terror and pressure on the Iraqi public since being teenagers. They don't really support Saddam, aren't ideally conflicting with the US, nor religiously, but simply have found another opportunity to "work." They have been the tool that Saddams regime used to keep support with the Iraqi people through pressure and terror and now have no purpose, or status.
Being part of a new "gang" and having a purpose is what these guys fight for. Fighting the US is just icing on the cake.
1. no work for an ex guerilla
2. get to fight the people responsible for making me jobless
3. sense of purpose
4. work with my old buddies
5. keep status as tough guys on the block
6. already have the job skills
7. if it works, guerillas will be the ruling power when the US leaves.
8. if it doesn't, it still can turn into a very powerful organized crime network and we can fight the Iraqi police instead.

Why wouldn't they fight?

ShotOver
11-10-2003, 09:20 AM
Mate, no offence.. but that's a load of crap.

He should get his buddies and do some good to help out the country they so love.

Help rebuild somthing, Iraq is in need of construction workers..

Durandal
11-10-2003, 09:35 AM
Mate, no offence.. but that's a load of crap.

He should get his buddies and do some good to help out the country they so love.

Here here!

Erik
11-10-2003, 09:59 AM
Mate, no offence.. but that's a load of crap.

He should get his buddies and do some good to help out the country they so love.

Help rebuild somthing, Iraq is in need of construction workers..
And love the guys that just bombed his country to stone age and invaded it?

JMooch
11-10-2003, 12:21 PM
"The attacks against American soldiers here often begin like this: A taxi stops briefly on a street corner. The driver passes whispered messages with code names for locations and times, then whizzes off down the road.

"We have special ways to send orders, with passwords that some taxi drivers know," says Omar Saleh, a 22-year-old fighter in a clandestine group called Muhammad's Army.

"The driver meets me in the street, and tells me where to go and at what time," says Saleh — a guerrilla name he has chosen in order to conceal his identity from strangers.

New 160-millimetre mortars allow Tikrit's fighters to strike military targets from a longer distance than in previous months, he says.

Also knitted into the underground web of fighters, Saleh says, are about 75 foreigners, mostly Syrians, who have been distributed among several groups.

He says about 600 volunteers are based around Tikrit, organized in "divisions" of about 100 men, with a commander controlling each division."

Thanks jek-off. Do you have any other info you'd like to share with us? Please keep passing the TTP's off to us. Pretty soon you'll be dead thanks to stupid jackasses like this, who like to brag.
S/F
Mooch

Deuterium
11-10-2003, 12:27 PM
Conspiracy rant take one.......

Iran and Syria are sending combatants because they both feel they are next on the "hit list". If they continue to attack the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan this will force the US to beef-up or not withdrawl forces. The US will not be able to muster the strenght needed to attack Syria or Iran until the Iraqi situation is cleaned up.

WARPIG
11-10-2003, 12:40 PM
My last statement wasn't to condone the actions of the guerillas.. just to try and show a little perspective. But then again.. even bystanders in a pissing contest tend to get pissed on.
Every theory spun about the guerillas, terrorists, old regime, other countries.. etc.... are all probably not far off. Bottom line is that the whole place is the wild west right now. Every US hater with a trigger finger gets to come out and take a shot and get to see it on TV. Then they get to watch the media sharpshoot the Americans that didn't get shot, about how they are getting killed for nothing.

Deuterium
11-10-2003, 12:41 PM
My last statement wasn't to condone the actions of the guerillas.. just to try and show a little perspective. But then again.. even bystanders in a pissing contest tend to get pissed on.
Every theory spun about the guerillas, terrorists, old regime, other countries.. etc.... are all probably not far off. Bottom line is that the whole place is the wild west right now. Every US hater with a trigger finger gets to come out and take a shot and get to see it on TV. Then they get to watch the media sharpshoot the Americans that didn't get shot, about how they are getting killed for nothing.

Yep!!

Argyll
11-10-2003, 12:41 PM
Now there's a point!!

Durandal
11-10-2003, 07:05 PM
My last statement wasn't to condone the actions of the guerillas.. just to try and show a little perspective. But then again.. even bystanders in a pissing contest tend to get pissed on.
Every theory spun about the guerillas, terrorists, old regime, other countries.. etc.... are all probably not far off. Bottom line is that the whole place is the wild west right now. Every US hater with a trigger finger gets to come out and take a shot and get to see it on TV. Then they get to watch the media sharpshoot the Americans that didn't get shot, about how they are getting killed for nothing.

Another good point. Just to clarify, Warpig, I was bitching at the interview, not you. :)

Cheers!

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
11-10-2003, 09:30 PM
"Iran and Syria are sending combatants because they both feel they are next on the "hit list". If they continue to attack the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan this will force the US to beef-up or not withdrawl forces. The US will not be able to muster the strenght needed to attack Syria or Iran until the Iraqi situation is cleaned up."

Sounds about right..I wouldnt doubt it at all. It would be sorta a "pre-emptive strike" to feel out american forces before they set foot on home soil. Unfortunately Iraq is turning into the muslim extremist's/psychopathic killer/merc playground.