Hitler's Bomb

[Herrmannek]

We were arguing half year ago in picture section about how close to making working atomic bomb nazi's were. I was diabolo advocating nazi wunderwaffe effort and some if not most of you were arguing against me saying that Nazis were very far from success. I heard there is a new book about that probably titled "Hitler's Bomb" by some german guy pointing that I could be right saying that Germans were very close, but i haven't seen book only note about it..So...

Did anyone seen that book? If yes can that person report what value and facts book presents?

[Kitsune]

I have read a summarization and am still unsure wether to purchase the book.
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3930219360/ref=pd_bxgy_text_2/028-0893479-4904510
There is another book with additional information:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3930219433/qid=1109898527/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_16_1/028-0893479-4904510

According to the summarization, the book makes the case that there was an German nuclear project, led by Gustav Hertz and based near Innsbruck. The project sucessfully build two nuclear bombs. But the Germans did not manage to use them, before the bombs were ready Allied troops were well within Germany. The bombs were conquered by the Americans and taken to the US. On of them was tested, the other thrown on Hiroshima. Only the Nagasaki bomb was a genuine American design, although built with the help of German scientists.
Rather fantastic. Of course the book proves everything and so on.

Well, as I said I am thinking of buying it because the book should have a high entertaining value. But the claims seem to be a bit...far out. The critics are accordingly divided: everything from "ground-breaking" to "ridiculous". It's of course interesting to assume that it could be true, Germany was perhaps the leading nation in physics back then and, interestingly there are some data and stuff of that time the US government has not cleared for the public to this very day. I always asked myself what could be so secret about 60 year old papers...and reading the summarization of this book I thought: well, something like this.
But then, there is a guy called Däniken, he has written stuff about aliens visiting earth in the past...and what do you know, much of it seems also "convincing". So better to be careful.

I am still making up may mind at present. If I should decide spend the money on something, that could be nothing but entertaining pseudo-history, I get into touch with you again after reading it. ;)

[von_Moo142]

I wouldn't ever pay money for a book that claims Germany built the bomb. I recommend this book, if you're interested in the development of the atomic bomb and the science that made it possible.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684813785/qid=1109909594/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0512780-2652603


Allthough it primarily documents the Manhatten project, the German programme is also covered. Also, the book goes into detail regarding the contributions of German scientists towards both these projects and the general advancement of nuclear physics.

[IronCross1985]

From what I understand...the Germans werent so close to creating a Nuckear bomb in the massive explosion sense...but rather a dirty bomb being delivered by a V-1 or V-2 to contaminate London for years.

[ogukuo72]

I wouldn't ever pay money for a book that claims Germany built the bomb. I recommend this book, if you're interested in the development of the atomic bomb and the science that made it possible.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684813785/qid=1109909594/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0512780-2652603


Allthough it primarily documents the Manhatten project, the German programme is also covered. Also, the book goes into detail regarding the contributions of German scientists towards both these projects and the general advancement of nuclear physics.

I've read this book before. I'll recommend it highly to anyone who is interested in this subject.

No matter how serious the German project was (and it does seem as if the Germans never pursued the bomb as doggedly and systematically as the US), we should also not forget the role played by the Norwegian resistance members and commandos in sabotaging the heavy water plants and blowing up the ferry carrying heavy water to Germany. Their contribution was not always remembered.

[Herrmannek]

THanks for response, from note i've read it seemed book is less doubtfull, but still: I wait for further info..

[Para]

You must remember that Germany was working on a project for an atomic bomb, also a German Submarine that was on it's way to Japan when Germany surrendered, it then sailed into an American port and was found to be carry high level radio active material that was used by the Americans in their second Atomic bomb on Japan. There were also teams of Allies scientist with the forward troops checking just for this type of material as the advanced progressed.

[Viktor_s]

Look on the web for the TV rip of the:

"Nazis Plan to bomb New York"

How true it is i don't know, but it's very interesting to watch. Recommended!

[von_Moo142]

we should also not forget the role played by the Norwegian resistance members and commandos in sabotaging the heavy water plants and blowing up the ferry carrying heavy water to Germany.


I'm always suprised by just how successful the Telemark raids were.


also a German Submarine that was on it's way to Japan when Germany surrendered, it then sailed into an American port and was found to be carry high level radio active material that was used by the Americans in their second Atomic bomb on Japan.

Got a source for that allegation?

The bomb used over Nagasaki was a plutonium based implosion design, a copy of the device tested at Trinity. Germany certainly wasn't producing plutonium in anything more than an atomic scale, as it takes a working nuclear reactor to make the stuff in laeger quantities.

So what was this radioactive material that you are talking about?


There were also teams of Allies scientist with the forward troops checking just for this type of material as the advanced progressed.


Indeed. They found a bunch of uranium and uranium ore, and a setup for testing the viability of a heavy water moderated reactor.


"Nazis Plan to bomb New York"

I'm sure someone had a plan to bomb new york. But they didn't have the bomb (they weren't even close) or the delivery system to do it.

[Abolith]

From what I understand...the Germans werent so close to creating a Nuckear bomb in the massive explosion sense...but rather a dirty bomb being delivered by a V-1 or V-2 to contaminate London for years.

Yup, they had no way of enriching/extracting Uranium to weapons grade. they instead decided to mix it with "black sand" (very fine sand) and blow it up over a major city letting the radioactive sand blow across several square miles.

[Abolith]

The bomb used over Nagasaki was a plutonium based implosion design, a copy of the device tested at Trinity. Germany certainly wasn't producing plutonium in anything more than an atomic scale, as it takes a working nuclear reactor to make the stuff in laeger quantities.


rofl not possible.

Plutonium was discovered, secretly, in 1940 by Glenn Seaborg with Wahl and Kennedy at Berkeley and publicly reported in 1946. Plutonium was extracted from uranium ore in 1947

[von_Moo142]

Don't exactly know what you're trying to say.

I assure you that plutonium implosion weapons are possible, and were possible in 1945.

Are you aware of the concentration of natrually occuring Pu-239 in uranium ores?

It's not very much, as you would expect from the fact that it must be constanly renewed by a neutron capture reaction*. All the neutrons needed must be generated by spontaneous fission, which is rare enough. A neutron at the right energy level must then find the highly improbable capture window.

The steady state concentration of Pu239 in nature is vanishingly small. It decays faster than it forms by quite some margin. You cannot extract more than a few atoms of Pu-239 from natrual sources. You can do some tracer chemistry with these amounts, but that's about all.

You refer to the Seaborg groups discovery of plutonium. They probably made more in a cyclotron than has ever been extracted from natrual sources.


There is a little more Pu-244 about (although even this exists in minute concentrations), but that's no good for bomb making anyway.



The plutonium used in the Trinity and Nagasaki bombs was made in nuclear reactors (as is all Pu239 availible in quantities that are usefull for more than tracer experiments). Specifically at Hanford in this case, IIRC. The same capture process that constantly forms the natrual Pu-239 also forms Pu in a nuclear reactor. We use a chain reaction in U235 to generate a hefty neutron flux. This is moderated, so the neutrons are slow enough to "enter" the capture window of U238. In this way useful quantities of Pu can be made.

No reactor = No Pu in greater than trace amounts


* U238 + n ---> U239 ---> Np239 + e- (beta)

Np239 ---> Pu239 + e- (beta)