Hitler's Plan To Bomb New York

[Sayeret]

During World War II, Hitler was obsessed by the idea of blitzing the Allies' chief cities of London, Moscow, and especially New York. As he figured it, even if an air attack on Manhattan did little damage, the impact on American Morale would be devastating.
Three leading German aircraft companies were commissioned to produce long-range bombers. Focke-Wulf designed a six-engine aircraft with 22,000-pound bomb load, but it never got past the drawing board. Messerschmitt's four-engine Me 264V-1 was equipped to carry a more modest 3,960-pound bomb load across the Atlantic at high altitudes, and it was test-flown in December 1942. Refined models with heavier bomb loads were later designed, but wartime supply shortages forced Messerschmitt to abandon the program.
Meanwhile, the Junkers company developed the Ju390, the largest plane then manufactured in Germany. In January 1944, the Third Reich asserted that the Ju390 had been test-flown from Bordeaux, France, to within 12 and a half miles of the US coastline north of New York. Six months later, Allied saboteurs destroyed the Junkers project.
By 1942 the Germans were considering another angle: a rocket attack fired from underwater. They conducted experiments in submarine launched missiles, and plans took shape in 1944 to fire V-2 rockets on New York City from a range of 200 miles. Special U-boats were designed to accommodate the V-2s, but the war ended before such plans became reality. Wernher von Braun, director of the V-2 effort, came to the United States after the war-bring all his underwater missile research with him. He later pioneered guided missile development for the US military.



Me 264V-1





Ju390

[Para]

The Germans reckoned that they made a trial run with the bomber across the Atlantic to see if it could be done. The Bomber made it to a hundred odd miles from the American coast line before it turned around and went back to Germany. By the time they had the programme up and running they did not have the resources to build the bomber and as far as I know only one was ever built.

[beNder]

its amazing the advanced weapons the germans had on the drawing board during the war...they were even developing infrared SAMs...

[stuntman]

Sure bomb New York City, that worked great for the Japanese. But seriously the thought is scary!

[Wodan]

Sure bomb New York City, that worked great for the Japanese. But seriously the thought is scary!

why?

many german and british towns got bombed, whats scary with an american, just cuz bombers would have got a higher range?

:roll:

[RGRBOX]

Isn't it great that the German War machine contributed so much to the modern US Military....

[Lamancha]

It's interesting to imagine it being fitted with chromium-plated Jumo 004 jet engines, although given that the engines as used in the Me 262 had a lifespan of ten hours, and it took the eventual DeHavilland Comet twelve hours to cross the Atlantic (in one direction), it probably wasn't feasible, notwithstanding the fuel requirements.

A giant jet-powered transatlantic flying boat, or Zeppelin, that would have been a heck of a thing.

[ronin2172]

Sure bomb New York City, that worked great for the Japanese. But seriously the thought is scary!

why?

many german and british towns got bombed, whats scary with an american, just cuz bombers would have got a higher range?

:roll:
think before you speak...at the time how many planes were capable of such a feat? None, save the B 29 perhaps. Imagine you are in New York City in 1944/ 45. The War is clear on the other side of the atlantic, other than submarines New York hasn't been touched, so the inhabitants would reasonably feel safe, there is no defense, because none is needed, All of the sudden you hear engines over head and bombs hit Times Square. The panic and fear that would have caused would have been massive. look at the havoc Doolittle caused when he bombed Tokyo (which was then thought to be impossible?)

The difference with those british and german cities are they were all well within range of the bombers of the day so they could expect to be hit. Hell the bombers in europe were only a hop skip and a jump from their targets.

[stuntman]

Sure bomb New York City, that worked great for the Japanese. But seriously the thought is scary!

why?

many german and british towns got bombed, whats scary with an american, just cuz bombers would have got a higher range?

:roll:
Well I ment the reasoning that Germans stated. To panic us to nogotiate, that is what the Imperial high command (Japan) thought and that is what I ment by
that worked great for the Japanese. But since we are on topic I also heard of the Germans bombing a port in Louisiana orTexas with subs. Anybody heard about this?

[RGRBOX]

Sure bomb New York City, that worked great for the Japanese. But seriously the thought is scary!

why?

many german and british towns got bombed, whats scary with an american, just cuz bombers would have got a higher range?

:roll:
Well I ment the reasoning that Germans stated. To panic us to nogotiate, that is what the Imperial high command (Japan) thought and that is what I ment by
that worked great for the Japanese. But since we are on topic I also heard of the Germans bombing a port in Louisiana orTexas with subs. Anybody heard about this?

Yea, and they still haven't left yet, they have there ownn mafia and they control the intire Shrimp Boat business.... just a little ugly joke... sorry.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Isn't it great that the German War machine contributed so much to the modern US Military....

And the Russians and, the French and the British and the...

I liked the quote from Ice Station Zebra about everyone’s German scientists being the common thread in why they were all standing in the cold :)

[EsoognomEhT]

Wernher von Braun, director of the V-2 effort, came to the United States after the war-bring all his underwater missile research with him. He later pioneered guided missile development for the US military.


Wonder if he was charged with anything relating to all the deaths he was responsible for, and all his mates,.. oh wait, of course not!

[ronin2172]

Wernher von Braun, director of the V-2 effort, came to the United States after the war-bring all his underwater missile research with him. He later pioneered guided missile development for the US military.


Wonder if he was charged with anything relating to all the deaths he was responsible for, and all his mates,.. oh wait, of course not!
Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for....

[RGRBOX]

Isn't it great that the German War machine contributed so much to the modern US Military....

And the Russians and, the French and the British and the...

I liked the quote from Ice Station Zebra about everyone’s German scientists being the common thread in why they were all standing in the cold :)

No ****... rofl

[EsoognomEhT]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for..


And the kraut that came up with the blitz? (before Dresden I might add..)

[FallenAngel]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for..


And the kraut that came up with the blitz? (before Dresden I might add..)

actually, that was a Brit too I think ;)

Hitler ordered that London not be touched during the Battle of Britain. However due to a navigational err (something having to due with radio signals used by the German bombers being scrambled by the Brits), German bombers accidentally bombed London. Churchill knew it was an accident and that in all likelihood wouldn't be repeated. But it was the escuse he needed to bomb Berlin. After that the gloves on both sides came off and large-scale bombing of city centers began nightly (much to the relief of the smashed RAF I might add).

[EsoognomEhT]

The Battle of Britain and the Blitz are two different things.


Churchill knew it was an accident and that in all likelihood wouldn't be repeated.

?? London and many other cities were repeatedly bombed.. Coventry was pretty much levelled...


The smashed RAF? The same smashed RAF that singlehandly put off Hitlers invasion plans for Britain..?

[LazyLob]

Hitler ordered that London not be touched during the Battle of Britain. However due to a navigational err (something having to due with radio signals used by the German bombers being scrambled by the Brits), German bombers accidentally bombed London. Churchill knew it was an accident and that in all likelihood wouldn't be repeated. But it was the escuse he needed to bomb Berlin. After that the gloves on both sides came off and large-scale bombing of city centers began nightly (much to the relief of the smashed RAF I might add).

Hitler's advance on Britain would more than likely never gone "as planned". I do not think that his initial restraint on London would have lasted much longer. After all he wasn't a nice guy. Britain's fighter production was higher than most people think even though the airfields benefited Adolf's change of targets.

"Wenn die britische Luftwaffe 2 oder 3 oder 4000 Kilogramm Bomben wirft, dann werfen wir jetzt in einer Nacht 150,000, 180,000, 230,000, 300,000, 400,000 and mehr Kilo! Und wenn sie erklären, sie werden unsere Städte in grossem Masstabe angreifen—wir werden ihre Städte ausradieren!"

Except we didn't use kilos ;-)

[Minardiau]

From books I have read on the early paty of ww2. Hitler tried to at all costs avoid MAJOR bombings of English cities especially Londen.

The leader of the flight from what I can tell that actually bombed London was actually court martialled. (spelling)

It was only the bombing of Berlin that sent Hitler into a rage and led to the blitz. A doco I was watching had an interview with a junior staff member in Hitlers inner circle. Apparantly Hitler nearly sacked Goering over the "accidental" bombing.

This is just my conclusions from books and watching docos.

[Belrick]

The whole city razing with massed bombers was a very clever propaganda campaign. Yep bombing civilians is a nasty business but it was the allies that geared there war machines to that end and initiated it and took it to extremes.

But winners write history so therefor the likes of bomber command are remembered as heroes and the luftwaffe as pure evil.

btw: the jumo 004 engines had a life span of 200 odd hours not 10. The most likiest long range bomber would have been a gotha/horton flying wing due to there incredible low drag/effenciency

[ronin2172]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for..


And the kraut that came up with the blitz? (before Dresden I might add..)
the problem is Dresden had no military value whatsoever, not even any political value. So why firebomb it...anyway if u want to hold Von Braun responsible for being a missle designer, then you need to hold the men who designed the Lancaster, B29, B 17, B24, responsible for all the death they caused, which was far in excess of any damage the V2 did? The point is your original post is is just plain stupid

[Oxford]

As he figured it, even if an air attack on Manhattan did little damage, the impact on American Morale would be devastating.

London and the blitz. Japan and Pearl Harbour. Terrorists and the World Trade Centre.

The only impact on morale such attacks have, is stiffening the resolve of those attacked. Such tactics do little militarily. They may boost the morale of the attacker and cause terror on the target, but that is about it.

[Oxford]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for..


And the kraut that came up with the blitz? (before Dresden I might add..)
the problem is Dresden had no military value whatsoever, not even any political value. So why firebomb it...anyway if u want to hold Von Braun responsible for being a missle designer, then you need to hold the men who designed the Lancaster, B29, B 17, B24, responsible for all the death they caused, which was far in excess of any damage the V2 did? The point is your original post is is just plain stupid

Frankly, Dresden ought not to have happened. Frightful stuff. It is a dark mark against an otherwise fine record.

Bomber Harris carried the burden after the war. The post war British government realized that too much destruction had occured. That is why fighter command recieved higher post war acknowledgements than bomber command.

War is an ugly business. It is easy to look back and make better decisions. It was a time of total war and the Nazi war machine had to be stopped.

We have learned a great deal since then. Today the Germans are our allies. They are a fine people and we harbour them no ill.

I can see a single European army in the near future.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Sure bomb New York City, that worked great for the Japanese. But seriously the thought is scary!

why?

many german and british towns got bombed, whats scary with an american, just cuz bombers would have got a higher range?

:roll:
think before you speak...at the time how many planes were capable of such a feat? None, save the B 29 perhaps. Imagine you are in New York City in 1944/ 45. The War is clear on the other side of the atlantic, other than submarines New York hasn't been touched, so the inhabitants would reasonably feel safe, there is no defense, because none is needed, All of the sudden you hear engines over head and bombs hit Times Square. The panic and fear that would have caused would have been massive. look at the havoc Doolittle caused when he bombed Tokyo (which was then thought to be impossible?)

The difference with those british and german cities are they were all well within range of the bombers of the day so they could expect to be hit. Hell the bombers in europe were only a hop skip and a jump from their targets.

Well, we may not have been as unprepared as you think - there was actually a pretty well developed and implemented defensive system on the east coast. My family told me that we had to black out our windows at night & had special curtains - we lived right on the beach on Cape Cod & could be seen for miles at sea. Also there was a very serious civil defense infrastructure in place - some interesting tidbits;



















Blackout requirements for highway movement
http://digitallibrary.smu.edu/cul/gir/ww2/pdf/p0105.pdf

Blackout procedures for buildings
http://digitallibrary.smu.edu/cul/gir/ww2/pdf/p0066.pdf

[LazyLob]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for..


And the kraut that came up with the blitz? (before Dresden I might add..)
the problem is Dresden had no military value whatsoever, not even any political value. So why firebomb it...anyway if u want to hold Von Braun responsible for being a missle designer, then you need to hold the men who designed the Lancaster, B29, B 17, B24, responsible for all the death they caused, which was far in excess of any damage the V2 did? The point is your original post is is just plain stupid

Mongoose distorted it matey

[von_Moo142]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for....

I am critical of the Dresden raid myself, but to attribute resposibility to Harris alone is perhaps short sighted. He is reported as having actually objected to this raid (although not on humanitarian grounds) at first. SHAEF ordered this raid, and were ultimately responsible for the conduct of the allies (excluding the Soviets of course) in Europe.

[ReconCominAtYa]

Although i think that the raid on Dresden was a terrible, terrible thing and that it was a complete waste of life, IMO we have to remember that the allies were waging a war on germans. The firebombing in Germany and in Japan was used to break the will of the fighting german and japanese public, who largely supported the wars their governments were waging. In the last few engagements that America and its allies have been in, we have been waging a war against a regime, not a country. In world war II, Germany and even more so Japan had very very strong support from its people. The allied war planners knew that attacks on military and political infrastructure would not end the war in a timely fashion. I know its hard to believe, but this thing probably did save lives. The same goes for the Atomic attacks on Japan. Of course this is an opinion of someone who things we should've waged nuclear war on communism immediatley following WWII

Oh and"Pearl Harbor galvanized the country's home-defense efforts. Blackouts became the norm in coastal areas, where streetlights were doused to hide cities from enemy pilots. The federal government established the Office for Civil Defense, which trained citizens to fight fires, rescue people, and administer first aid, and the Civil Air Patrol which taught them to keep their "eyes on the sky." "--Military.com

[The_MadMan]

Oh and"Pearl Harbor galvanized the country's home-defense efforts. Blackouts became the norm in coastal areas, where streetlights were doused to hide cities from enemy pilots. The federal government established the Office for Civil Defense, which trained citizens to fight fires, rescue people, and administer first aid, and the Civil Air Patrol which taught them to keep their "eyes on the sky." "--Military.com

But when were these restrictions lifted? Wasn't that before the end of the war?

[sp2c]

actually, that was a Brit too I think ;)

Hitler ordered that London not be touched during the Battle of Britain. However due to a navigational err (something having to due with radio signals used by the German bombers being scrambled by the Brits), German bombers accidentally bombed London. Churchill knew it was an accident and that in all likelihood wouldn't be repeated. But it was the escuse he needed to bomb Berlin. After that the gloves on both sides came off and large-scale bombing of city centers began nightly (much to the relief of the smashed RAF I might add).

actually the Germans firebombed Rotterdam in may 1940's simply because the military campaign stalled ... then there was Guernica in 1937

so no that wasn't the Brits

[The_MadMan]

Don't forget Warshaw or all the cities that were bombed on the eastern front.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Oh and"Pearl Harbor galvanized the country's home-defense efforts. Blackouts became the norm in coastal areas, where streetlights were doused to hide cities from enemy pilots. The federal government established the Office for Civil Defense, which trained citizens to fight fires, rescue people, and administer first aid, and the Civil Air Patrol which taught them to keep their "eyes on the sky." "--Military.com

But when were these restrictions lifted? Wasn't that before the end of the war?


America's Homefront During WWII
While American forces were fighting overseas or training at US military camps, families at home were also fully engaged in the war effort. From selling War Bonds to saving bacon fat, Americans did all they could at home to support the troops and their mission.

WAR BONDS: The sale of War Bonds and War Stamps from 1942-1945, by everyone from children going door-to-door to movie stars Abbott and Costello and Irene Dunne, helped the country stage a rapid economic recovery after the post-depression years. Bond booths were set up at schools, in local movie theaters and food stores. Posters and billboards throughout America promoted bond drives with slogans like "Join the Fight. Back the Invasion," "Help Avenge Pearl Harbor" and "Hasten the Homecoming: Buy Victory Bonds!"

RATIONING: 'Making do with less' was the rallying cry on the American Homefront. Following the example of its British cousins, America soon began the rationing of critical goods. The Office of Price Administration (OPA) was set up in 1941 to set rationing regulations. With the military getting first claim on products such as steel, aluminum, coal, wood, rubber, gasoline, items like cigarettes and foods such as coffee and sugar, American families began feeling the pinch. Within a short period of time, ration books had been issued to every family member in the country. For those who disobeyed ration rules, punishment was strict. "Punishments ranging as high as Ten Years' Imprisonment or $10,000 Fine or Both, may be imposed under United States Statutes for violations thereof arising out of infractions of Ration Orders and Regulations." (from United States of American, War Ration Book One). With rationing came a thriving black market for the scarcer products.

WOMEN AT WORK: "Rosie the Riveter" - During the war years, as men marched off to battle, women on the Home Front marched into factories and made tremendous contributions to the war effort. In great numbers, -- more than 6 million -- women from all across American went to work in war-related industries, helping to ensure America's war victory. The image of one such fictional woman at work became famous all over the country, even inspiring a song. "Rosie the Riveter" became a symbol for all the American women who gave up their home lives to work in shipyards, steel mills, foundries, lumber mills, warehouses, offices, hospitals and daycare centers. Today, the Rosie the Riveter Memorial in Richmond, Virginia is the first national monument to celebrate and interpret women's crucial contributions to the World War Two Home Front.

VICTORY GARDENS: As certain food products became scarcer, Americans turned their attention to growing their own. Government campaigns encouraged all citizens to plant and grow home "Victory Gardens," and posters proclaimed "Dig for Victory, Plant for Peace." There were competitions for the best Victory Gardens, and published recipes to make use of home-grown items. At one point during the war years, America's Victory Gardens produced nearly half of all U.S. vegetables.

SALVAGE DRIVES: During the war years, Americans got their first taste of recycling. To aid the war effort, they were encouraged to salvage their tin cans, bottles, odd bits of rubber, waste paper, nylon and silk (to make parachutes), scrap metal and even fats left over from cooking (to make into explosives). Scrap Metal Drives were held all over the country and farmers were encouraged by the John Deere Company to "Sink A Sub From Your Farm: Bring in Your Scrap."

CIVILIAN DEFENSE EFFORTS: In May 1941, President Franklin Roosevelt created the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD), with New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia as its chief. The Mayor chose popular First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt as his assistant. She was put in charge of Voluntary Participation, with four units under her: Women's, Youth and Veteran's Activities and Physical Fitness. By November, all the states and 5,935 towns and cities had set up defense councils. For La Guardia, the most important part of civilian defense was air raid protection, and that included the appointment of air raid wardens and auxiliary firemen, and an early OCD publication was titled "What to do in an Air Raid." Proclaiming the safest place in an air raid was in the home, the pamphlet went on to advise Americans to stay away from windows and crouch under "stout" tables. The government, with the threat of coastal enemy invasions on its mind, created the Civilian Air Patrol (CAP) whose duties were to patrol the east coast by ship and small plane. In March 1942, by military order, "dim-outs" began. This meant that there were to be no rays of light emitted on the eastern shore and inland for 12-16 miles. These dim-outs, or "blackouts," soon spread across the county and to the west coast. Americans bought yards of blackout curtain material, and magazines offered suggestions on how to comply with the blackout in style: "Bedrooms need not go into mourning," said House & Garden. "Make a blackout shade by seaming together two pieces of fabric, one black and one to match your curtain." Those who did not comply with blackout orders were subject to arrest.

http://www.pbs.org/memorialdayconcert/wwii/guarding.html

I was trying to find some dates on when all this civil defense stuff came to an end - I couldn't find anything on blackouts specifically, but the timeline here shows that butter, gasoline, and fuel oil continued to be rationed until just after the Japanese surrender. Sugar is still rationed even 4 months after that.
http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/WWII_Women/NewTimeline.html

[sp2c]

Don't forget Warshaw or all the cities that were bombed on the eastern front.

I meant no disrespect but I just don't have enough information about the eastern front.

wasn't Warshaw destroyed via a concentrated panzer assault?

[The_MadMan]

wasn't Warshaw destroyed via a concentrated panzer assault?

Warsaw as bombed too, not with the same intention as Rotterdam but still:


From the very first hours of World War II, Warsaw, the capital of Poland, was a target of an aerial bombardment campaign by the German Luftwaffe. Apart from the military facilities such as infantry barracks and the Okęcie airport and aircraft factory, the German pilots also targeted civilian facilities such as water works, hospitals, market places and schools. In addition, civilians were strafed from the air with machine gun fire in what became known as a terror bombing campaign.

The Anti-Air defence of the city was divided onto active and passive parts. The former was composed mostly of units of the Pursuit Brigade (Brygada Pościgowa) under colonel Stefan Pawlikowski, and anti-air artillery and anti-air machine guns detachments under colonel Kazimierz Baran. The Pursuit Brigade was equipped with 54 fighter aircraft, mostly thePZL P.7 and PZL P.11 types. The AA artillery had 86 pieces of anti-air artillery, as well as an unknown number of anti-air machine guns. The latter was composed mostly of fire-fighter brigades and volunteers and was supervised by colonel Tadeusz Bogdanowicz and Julian Kulski, the deputy president of Warsaw.

Initially the air defence of Warsaw was fairly successful. By September 6, 1939, the Pursuit Brigade had managed to shoot down 43 enemy aeroplanes, while artillery had shot down a similar number of enemy bombers. In addition, there were also 9 unconfirmed victories and 20 damaged planes. However, the brigade also suffered losses, and by September 7 it had lost 38 machines, or approximately 70% of its initial strength.

The AA defence started to crumble when on September 5 by order of the military authorities 11 AA batteries were withdrawn from Warsaw towards Lublin, Brześć and Lwów. Also, as the war progressed, the German high command redirected more bombers to attack the city. At the peak of the initial bombing campaign on September 10, there were more than 70 German bombers above Warsaw. During that day, nick-named "Bloody Sunday", there were 17 consecutive bombing raids. It is to be noted that the German pilots failed to destroy the most important targets of military value in Warsaw - the bridges over Vistula.


http://www.answers.com/topic/siege-of-warsaw

[Thor]

Hmm and i wonder if the brit who ordered the firebombing of Dresden was was charged with anything relating to the deaths he and his mates were responsible for..


And the kraut that came up with the blitz? (before Dresden I might add..)

actually, that was a Brit too I think ;)

Hitler ordered that London not be touched during the Battle of Britain. However due to a navigational err (something having to due with radio signals used by the German bombers being scrambled by the Brits), German bombers accidentally bombed London. Churchill knew it was an accident and that in all likelihood wouldn't be repeated. But it was the escuse he needed to bomb Berlin. After that the gloves on both sides came off and large-scale bombing of city centers began nightly (much to the relief of the smashed RAF I might add).
So actually Churchill is to blame for the bombings of London..?