Something like this awaits US forces in Iraq

[Kingpin]

http://video.kavkazcenter.com/fight_in_chechnya/podryvy18.wmv

[Deuterium]

Gosh we should give up. We can't defeat this. All I see are poorly executed ambushes. Want to REALLY put fear in your enemy. Slaughter every f*cking person in the killzone. Were are the supporting fires, were are the IEDs in the are were the guys run to for cover? Nothing. Amateurs.

[khukuri]

Amateurs?

Saying that without knowing the circumstances and how the are looks like is almost being an amateur.

In the video maybe the chechens dont want to reveil themself becaus theyre maybe ruskys all over the place, behind, besides them and so on.

In theese roadside bombs the soilders dotn reveil themself because of remote set rearmed russian undetonated bombs/shells.

You dont need to kill everybody, the effect with roadside bombs is not how many enemy soilders you take out, just the fact that you take out some puts fear in their friends. Thats how you terrorize units. remark i am not saying those who are doing theese attacks are terrorists.

Its a bit like the fear of a sniper, you never know where, when and how. you cant hide, run or do ****, atleast how you feel. Its above youre control. once the bomb goes off, theres nobody to shoot back at, mostly

[Guttorm]

How are these vids affecting the people back in russia?
Are they calling for theire sons back, or are they screaming for revenge?

[Salty Dog]

something like this waits for us forces in iraq?......simply stunning :cantbeli:

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

These are extreme acts of cowardice...watching that video makes my blood boil in how much of cowards they are not to come out and face them. In only one of the video' it shows the bmp's unloading troops and them returning fire...I bet if the russians made there own video it would be a totall different story.

[96B]

It makes my blood boil because its taking so fricken long to download...

[khukuri]

Such BS
Its really brave by russian airforce to bombard the whole city, really mano y mano situation where the chechens had a chance to meat the ruskys.

Or its even braver by the US to send tomahawks over iraq.

And its really brave if the chechens chose to go out fighting tanks on their feet. Wanna talk about bravery, i tell you what, let the russians leave their tanks arty planes helos apc:s mortars. Lets have the same number of russians and chechens with the same weapons end let them fight each other? Do you think youre brave friends would accept that? Unfortanly the real world doesnt work as a game so that isnt possible. Bravery, huh, this is war-

@semperfi2003
lol, its not exactly the fastest server around


@guttorm
"How are these vids affecting the people back in russia?
Are they calling for theire sons back, or are they screaming for revenge?"

Dont think most russians even seen theese images, I think its a bit hard to display that **** on russian TV because most of russian TV is state controlled. atleast the big stations. Officially in russia there is no war no more, wich of course is BS sence some of the operations we see on that site is made 2003. I sa an intervju with a russian soilder who said that they have 8 killed a day, if its true or not i dont know.

[Flagg]

Lets have the same number of russians and chechens with the same weapons end let them fight each other?

Anyone who voluntarily engages in a "fair fight" is a bloody idiot.


Do you think youre brave friends would accept that?

No....see above

[Ichhabe]

These are extreme acts of cowardice...watching that video makes my blood boil in how much of cowards they are not to come out and face them. In only one of the video' it shows the bmp's unloading troops and them returning fire...I bet if the russians made there own video it would be a totall different story.

We in NATO are also trained in such warfare for your information ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð.

When I was doing my conscript service, we trained a lot in such tactics.

Nothing cowardice in such warfare. It is called "using your smartie brain".

Normally I do not like to use examples from movies, but in one of the last scenes in "Ford Fairlane" there is a perfectly good example of "mano to mano", and not how to do it. :D

[One?]

There is nothing cowardly in gurilla warfare. Its proven to be effective so why not use it.

If you watch other videos they show chechens fighting the russians with rifles not only roadside bombs.

[Ratamacue]

Guerrilla warfare is not cowardly until it becomes terrorism.

No, I don't think the guerrillas in Iraq are terrorists, but I'm no expert on the matter.

[Vance]

I prefer to call the guerillas in Iraq 'insurgents'.

[Deuterium]

Such BS
Its really brave by russian airforce to bombard the whole city, really mano y mano situation where the chechens had a chance to meat the ruskys.

Or its even braver by the US to send tomahawks over iraq.

And its really brave if the chechens chose to go out fighting tanks on their feet. Wanna talk about bravery, i tell you what, let the russians leave their tanks arty planes helos apc:s mortars. Lets have the same number of russians and chechens with the same weapons end let them fight each other? Do you think youre brave friends would accept that? Unfortanly the real world doesnt work as a game so that isnt possible. Bravery, huh, this is war-

@semperfi2003
lol, its not exactly the fastest server around


@guttorm
"How are these vids affecting the people back in russia?
Are they calling for theire sons back, or are they screaming for revenge?"

Dont think most russians even seen theese images, I think its a bit hard to display that **** on russian TV because most of russian TV is state controlled. atleast the big stations. Officially in russia there is no war no more, wich of course is BS sence some of the operations we see on that site is made 2003. I sa an intervju with a russian soilder who said that they have 8 killed a day, if its true or not i dont know.

No your the one with BS. How did we find the targets for those tomahawks? Satellite imagery? Darts on the wall? Or did we send in people armed with GPSs and digital cameras before the war even started. I'd say that was pretty brave.

[Deuterium]

And your wrong. These are amateurs. Nobody said that have to stand there and fight it out force on force. My point was that if they were professionals they would lay in a decent ambush.

[bishop1]

Guerilla warfare and Unconventional Warfare is not cowardly, but it is very effective, its how we won our Freedom and how the little yellow bastards of a poor Southeastern Asian country threw out the greatest military in the world, i mean, our Spec Ops train in sabatoge and Ambushes and stuff like that, like the SOG and SEAL missions in Nam where theyd ****y trap rounds in magazines or put claymores under enemy pillows. It scares the **** out of you so you dont want to fight anymore, hence why its so effective in Iraq, with each G.I. death the people want more and more for us out of there. But the video to me was sad and hard to watch, ecspecially of the guys on foot, just walking one second and gone the next. It made me realize how we have been brainwashed by T.V. and movies. I mean i can watch any war movie no matter how sad and disturbing and it doesnt bother much, but watvching that, when its real, when you know those people have parents and familys and its all gone in less than a second, and you see it, you see them die, turns my stomach, but thats war, and life.

[Russian Texan]

Chechens are anything but cowards but they are also not stupid and only use tactics that provide them with the advantage, roadside bombs and mines are some of them.
There was also made a comment about what if russians dismount, don't use bombers, attack helicopters, etc. and engage into man to man fighting. What do you think was going on there for the last 8 years? It was anything but the high tech war, the only hight tech moment of it was when first chechen president Dudaev was killed by the missile launched from a fighter that homed in on his satelite phone signal, that happened back in 96 and ever since than it was an infantry war. Chechens never attack or confront russian troops unless they have a signigicant numbers or otherwise advantage because they know that man for man they will lose. Just a couple of examples:

6th company of the 76th paratrooper division (91 russian paratroopers) fought upclose and personal battle including hand to hand (that is I guess when all that breaking bricks and cinder blocks paid off) against 2000 chechens and mercenaries. Result russians lost 86 dead, chechens 400+ dead and unknow number of wounded.

In 1996 during Pervomaisk hostage taking,
5 men!!!
from spetcnaz GRU stood up and to several hundred chechens and killed 90 of them when they tried to break out and escape

There are plenty of other cases that illustrate why chechens try to avoid honest fights.

But I do think that Russia should be nothing but tgreatful to the US for its involvement in Iraq. It has been noted that ever since "combat phase of the operation was over" attacks and bombings by "freedom fighters" and "rebels" in Chechnya have drastically decreased...

[Kingpin]

Yes, i confirm both stories from Texan.

I just add that commander of 6th company when situation became really grave said to his soldiers that anyone who wish can retreat with wounded right now. But all of them choose to fight.

~2000 insurgents tried to ecape encirclement through their positions (which were absolutely unprepared because troops took them hour before all that happened).

****ing mountains. There was very dense fog this day and airforce couldn't help them. Only limited artlillery support. And reinforcement was late. After hours of intensive battle troops were out of ammo and enter in hand-to-hand combat. In last radio message they called in artillery strike on their positions.

[MarineSniper8541]

We dont need to add some geek raghead chorus singing songs to a bunch of video snipets in what is obviously a propoganda film.

We can show the same thing in just one film, and show the whole story not just the scenes where expolsions go off.

http://www.sftt.org/AC130_Gunship.wmv

Roughly 400 Coalition troops dead in Iraq, compared to how many tens of thousands of Iraqis? And you are trying to actually say we will lose there? LOL. A great deal of Iraqis are willing to die for their cause by killing US troops in small numbers. We will accomodate them and allow them to die for their cause. But the only thing they do is strengthen our resolve. We will not lose in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else. And you can take that to the bank.

[One?]

MarineSniper your ego will kill you. History tough us that no occupation force has ever survived.

You are lucky that only 10% if not less are resisting the occupation. The AC130 can't do **** when you get ambushed :)

You cannot have a gunship provide support for every convoy or every patrol....

[PsihoKeke]

Pervomaisk was really weird thing. About 250 armed checens seized this village and held ocupants as hostages. Russians surrounded the village with several thousands soliders and policeman suported by tanks, APCs and heavy artilery yet the leader of rebels Radujev managed to break out with hundred of his man. And what did the Russians in the morning? They hit the village with barage from mortars, howitzers, MRLS and assault planes (SU-25) cousing a unknown number of civilian casualties and heavy property damagen (they razed the whole place down). Why wasn't this revolutionary hostage rescue procedure used in Moscow?

[MarineSniper8541]

The film of the gunship raid is just a rebuttal that anyone can post a link of enemy soldiers being killed from afar. Kingpin's propoganda film and his attempt to "scare" are a joke. In Iraq, just as in Chechnya...they can kill soldiers in 2's and 3's every day. But the explosive ambushes have no effect on the fact that the troops remain, the mission continues, and the resolve of the nation is strengthened. Yes it makes troops experience fear, but fear is good. It keeps you alert. It keeps you from becoming complacent. It keeps you focused. Killing our troops with improvised explosives set on roadsides is not going to make our troops just throw up their hands in frustration, let out a big sigh...and go home. Haven't the Iraqi insurgents learned anything from the Chechens? The Chechens have been trying everything they can think of against the Russians...the Russians are still there and their mission continues.

Also, you are wrong. History has NOT shown anything even close to occupation forces not surviving. Yes, you can name examples of some that have failed, but hundreds of occupational forces have survived and succeeded throughout history. The success of an occupational force depends on three factors and three factors only.

1. Resolve
2. Capability
3. Authorization by command to do what is needed to get the job done.

In Iraq, the U.S. troops have all three...and then some.

[Kingpin]

We will not lose in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else. And you can take that to the bank.

You're talking like Pentagon PR man. :)

Yeah, yeah. You willn't lose. You didn't lose in Vietnam and didn't lose in Korea. And all those 4000 lost aircrafts... they... they... just were broken. ;) And all those 55 000 men they... mmm.... were just badly ill.

Remove BMP and put Humvee on its place. Remove mountains and place desert and you'll see that all the same now happens in Iraq. I am not trying to scare anyone. I'm just asking you to notice analogies.

[bishop1]

Man, Marine whats your major malfunction? Fear isnt good, im not a soldier (yet) but i sure as **** dont wanna be scared all the time when im overseas. It can keep you alert, but when youre really scared, you dont wanna go, and when other people see you freaking out, they will too, so it causes all sorts of problems for everyone. Also, i dont know where you are, but with each G.I. death our resolve isnt strengthned, its weakend. Why is the liberal media (who influnces the stupid population) gonna see the death as another reason to get the job done? Theyre gonna say how stupid it is wrere there, how stupid Bush is, how the plans are failing, how theres no end in sight, that isnt resolve, thats the begening of another Nam man, the situation over there isnt as glorified as you want to think my man.

[wholagun]

This is pissing me off, every day i hear about US and other allied troops dying. Don't our forces train for these kinds of things, well i guess this is a new type of warefare, well not new in a sense but new in the sense that its all the enemy does.
Maybe we should train our troops to better react to situation like this, or at least do something..so frustrating when colalition mainly US die. ahahahhaahhaahh :fork:

For those of you in the military, is there any kind of training that you guys go through or something?

[Kingpin]

Pervomaisk was really weird thing. About 250 armed checens seized this village and held ocupants as hostages. Russians surrounded the village with several thousands soliders and policeman suported by tanks, APCs and heavy artilery yet the leader of rebels Radujev managed to break out with hundred of his man. And what did the Russians in the morning? They hit the village with barage from mortars, howitzers, MRLS and assault planes (SU-25) cousing a unknown number of civilian casualties and heavy property damagen (they razed the whole place down). Why wasn't this revolutionary hostage rescue procedure used in Moscow?

No :)
They did it all four days. Whole mission was badly planned and badly executed. Like many other operations in 1994-1996. It was bad time for country.
But as for history about 5 GRU men - it is true. And bad planning in HQ doesn't mean yet that plain soldiers is a ****. They did they job good enough.

[MarineSniper8541]

Bishop,

You will understand when and if you are exposed to it. The day you stop being scared is the day you are a liability to your unit. You need to be scared the instant your foot hits the deck and you need to continue to be scared until you set foot back on US soil. Fear initiates your natural survival instincts. It keeps you from taking risks that are not necessary. Fear makes you look at things in a different way. You see things not as they appear, but you pay attention to detail. Yea, fear sucks, but without it, you are just a soft target.

And yes it does in fact strengthen resolve when you see or hear of someone in your unit getting hit. It pisses you off. It makes you want revenge. You edge closer to giving no quarter and it helps you to not hesitate when necessary. You also set it in your mind that you will be damned if the guy you saw die, did so for nothing.

Wholagun,

Yest we train for it. It's called combat. Unfortunately its on-the-job training.

[wholagun]

Yest we train for it. It's called combat. Unfortunately its on-the-job training.

I understand if this would be the right after the Cold War, idea being then to fight off huge soviet tank divisions. But we've had awhile to learn and realize that terrorists will use guriella tactics, the armed forces should definetly put more emphasis on this issue in training considering whats happening in Iraq. (if you could even train for it),

Just so frustrating..

[Erik]

Yest we train for it. It's called combat. Unfortunately its on-the-job training.

I understand if this would be the right after the Cold War, idea being then to fight off huge soviet tank divisions. But we've had awhile to learn and realize that terrorists will use guriella tactics, the armed forces should definetly put more emphasis on this issue in training considering whats happening in Iraq. (if you could even train for it),

Just so frustrating..
Yup.

I mentioned in some other thread that there are lots of similarities in iraq and chechnya. Same tactics and perhaps even same fighters. The only thing that is keeping these conflicts different is the absence of throat cutting and other mutilation of enemies. I hope we will never see such videos as from chechnya where soldiers and officers are executed in brutal ways.

If this happens it could have devastating effect on coalitions actions towards iraqi people.

[aktarian]

In 1996 during Pervomaisk hostage taking,
5 men!!!
from spetcnaz GRU stood up and to several hundred chechens and killed 90 of them when they tried to break out and escape


WTF? Are you saying 5 men went in to Pervomaiskoye and killed 96 Chechens? Or that Russians had only 5 dead? Because neither is true.

[Kingpin]

When insurgents breaking out of Pervomaiskoe they run in the direction covered only by 5 men of GRU Spetsnaz. Guerillas lost about 60 men killed in the field (not 90. i checked it). But actually troops managed to call in artillery strike for their support (if i remember correctly) and they withdrew only after they practically out of ammo.

[aktarian]

When insurgents breaking out of Pervomaiskoe they run in the direction covered only by 5 men of GRU Spetsnaz. Guerillas lost about 60 men killed in the field (not 90. i checked it). But actually troops managed to call in artillery strike for their support (if i remember correctly) and they withdrew only after they practically out of ammo.

Can you provide source for this? I heard totally different accounts (3 rings around Pervomaiskoye and fighting for for km-in addition to arty fire)

[Kingpin]

In Russian. Can this help? :)

[aktarian]

In Russian. Can this help? :)

In English?

[Kingpin]

Sorry man. :D

[Deuterium]

MarineSniper your ego will kill you. History tough us that no occupation force has ever survived.

You are lucky that only 10% if not less are resisting the occupation. The AC130 can't do **** when you get ambushed :)

You cannot have a gunship provide support for every convoy or every patrol....

Uhhh I guess I wasn't paying attention, wasn't Germany and Japan occupied after WWII? They are not a success?

[Deuterium]

We will not lose in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else. And you can take that to the bank.

You're talking like Pentagon PR man. :)

Yeah, yeah. You willn't lose. You didn't lose in Vietnam and didn't lose in Korea. And all those 4000 lost aircrafts... they... they... just were broken. ;) And all those 55 000 men they... mmm.... were just badly ill.

Remove BMP and put Humvee on its place. Remove mountains and place desert and you'll see that all the same now happens in Iraq. I am not trying to scare anyone. I'm just asking you to notice analogies.

We lost Korea? NOw that's some revisionist history.

[Kingpin]

I didn't want to say you lost. I would like to say you didn't win.

Did USSR lost in Afganistan? No. But also he didn't win.

Same in Korea and Vietnam... Who knows may be Iraq and Afganistan II will have the same end.

[Russian Texan]

You are right, I gave you the wrong number, they have killed 82 chechens. There is the book written by one of those 5 man, he's the only one that survived but has lost his eyesight. The name of the book is "Pervomaika" by Zaripov, my info comes from it. I don't think they have it in english so here is what happened according to him:

***note that I have used an online translator to put it into english so it might be hard to understand at some place but right now I don't have time to correct it***


Appendix A.
To the chief of Joint Staff VS of the Russian Federation to the general of army Kvashnin A.V. from the Hero of Russia, the invalid of war of 1 group Zaripova Albert Maratovicha the APPLICATION. In January, 1996 you as the Commander North Caucasian Military District, supervised over a finishing phase of counterterrorist operation about neutralization of group of insurgents of Salmana Raduev who is taking place together with hostages in village May Day Republic Dagestan. During same time I, being the commander ???????????? special troops ??? ??, together with the subordinates accepted direct participation in blocking village and storm of May Day 15.01.1996. On a boundary of my defense ???????????? the great bulk of insurgents in 3 one o'clock in the morning on January, 18 had been undertook attempt of break from besieged ????????????. As soldiers from mine ???????????? have served in the Chechen Republic about one month real counteraction to coming insurgents rendered only five person: Sergeant of contract service BYCHKOV VICTOR ??????????, the assistant to the commander 1 ???????????? 1 mouths ?/? 11879; lieutenant ????????? ALEXANDER ??????????, ??????????????? as the commander ???????????? special troops ?/? 11879; senior lieutenant ????? STANISLAV ???????????, the operative officer of 1 group 1 mouths ?/? 11879; major N., the assistant to the commander of a brigade of special troops on work with staff; an item lieutenant Zaripov A.M., the commander 1 ???????????? 1 mouths ?/? 11879. As to us of any support it has not been rendered, and we kept up to last cartridge and last pomegranates insurgents because of the superiority in strength could break on our boundary of defense. But only after were lost sergeant ?/? Bychkov V.N. and lieutenant Vinokurov A.A., I have received heavy wound, senior lieutenant Garin S.A. has received wound of an average degree of weight, and major N. has been seriously contused. But we had been destroyed 62 insurgents on a field before a boundary of defense and 20 more terrorists - are direct on positions of 1 group 1 mouths. The next morning after night fight you personally arrived on a position ???????????? also could make sure in as far as fierce was this night ???????????????. To you it has been reported, that on a way of breaking insurgents to death became all four officers and one ???????????, and you have there and then given the order about representation of five scouts to rewarding by a high rank of the Hero of the Russian Federation. However the military destiny has disposed differently: major N. by virtue of the high moral qualities has refused this rank, as it as the assistant to the commander of a brigade on work with staff, should write representation on itself... And on heroically victims of sergeant ??????? of CENTURY. ?. and lieutenant ?????????? AND. ?. these representations on a rank of the Hero of Russia have not been made at all. Some officials of a staff of a brigade have counted, that the victim to sergeant and the lieutenant will be enough and rewardings by an award of Courage posthumously. THOUGH the ORDER of the COMMANDER NORTH CAUCASIAN MILITARY DISTRICT of the general of army Kvashnin A.V. was About representation of sergeant Bychkova V.N. and lieutenant Vinokurova A.A. to rewarding by a high rank of the HERO of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION. Then, in January, 1996 you on advantage and highly have estimated a feat of arms of my falling comrades which to the last gasp protected our NATIVE LAND. I understand, that him, to the lost defenders of Russia: to sergeant Bychkovu and lieutenant Vinokurovu, already it is necessary nothing, neither ranks, nor awards... But restoration of validity and the truth vitally to us that lost, but everliving in human memory the Russian Heroes short and bright a life-feat learned and brought up rising generation of selfless and self-denying love to our GREAT RUSSIA... In fact for the sake of our NATIVE LAND and us with you heroically were lost Bychkov Victor Nikolaevich and Vinokurov Alexander Alekseevich...

One more thing to add: later mr. Zaripov tried to conduct his own investigation on what happened and discovered that the reason an attack was aimed at his positions was because chechens knew that it was the weakest... How did they know? Several hours before the attack there was a journalist accompanied by a high ranking officer walking around and asking questions questions. Basically what happened was that chechens decided to break out but didn't know in which direction to proceed so they have send one of the hostages (journalist) to do the recon for them. He had to report back otherwise consequences for his family will follow.

If you are interested in more detailed information I can post entire book translation here.

[Deuterium]

I didn't want to say you lost. I say would like to say you didn't win.

Did USSR lost in Afganistan? No. But also he didn't win.

Same in Korea and Vietnam... Who knows may be Iraq and Afganistan II will have the same end.

Roger, got your point, although I'd argue we did win in Korea. 48 MILLION people enjoy freedom and a high state of economic development because of that war and the fact that we didn't quit.

[Kingpin]

From this point of view you'd lost in Vietnam. Completely. Just remember what was in US embassy when North Vietnam army arrived in city. :)

[aktarian]

One more thing to add: later mr. Zaripov tried to conduct his own investigation on what happened and discovered that the reason an attack was aimed at his positions was because chechens knew that it was the weakest... How did they know? Several hours before the attack there was a journalist accompanied by a high ranking officer walking around and asking questions questions. Basically what happened was that chechens decided to break out but didn't know in which direction to proceed so they have send one of the hostages (journalist) to do the recon for them. He had to report back otherwise consequences for his family will follow.

If you are interested in more detailed information I can post entire book translation here.

Chechens were also monitoring russiaon radio transmissions so his might be trying to deflect blame from bad security.

[Uncle Sam]

KINGPIN...You're just the type of person I'm lookin' for...










...To beat the **** out of...!!! :slap:

[XASA]

From this point of view you'd lost in Vietnam. Completely. Just remember what was in US embassy when North Vietnam army arrived in city. :)

The U.S. did "lose" in Vietnam; however, I think your statement of "Completely" is off the mark since the U.S. won on the military front, including the Tet Battle, but lost it on the political front due to a lack of support at home for the war. Also, by fighting in Vietnam, communism was limited to Vietnam. A loss nevertheless, but certainly not on the scale of France's and Japan's defeat in WWII and Germany in both world wars.

Also, for the North Vietnamese it was a Pyrrhic victory when you consider their losses, the mass emigration of the South's middle-class and the fact that they are now doing everything possible to get the U.S. back in Vietnam as tourists and favorable trade partners.

[MarineSniper8541]

The US did not lose in Korea. We won. The North invaded the South. The US and the UN joined the fight. South Korea is still free. Just because there was a "cease fire" instead of the North surrendering does not mean the Korean war was not a success.


Also anyone who thinks that we will not win in Iraq is wrong. We already won in Iraq. We invaded Iraq to get Saddam out of power. We did exactly that. Everything else after that is simply being done as a courtesy to the Iraqi people. If we pull all of our troops out tomorrow, we still will have won in Iraq. It would just be a ****ty thing to do to the Iraqis...to leave their country in a shambles after having invaded it.

[Russian Texan]

Chechens were also monitoring russiaon radio transmissions so his might be trying to deflect blame from bad security

No this has nothing to do with it, it is kinda hard to explain why if you haven't read the book but let me try

#1 GRUs' communications were scrambled

#2 His story about journalist is supported by other participants

#3 Even if their communications were intercepted somehow, how would chechens know their location, armament and quantity? All of the above didn't need to be discussed over the radio because HQ knew where they were and what they had.

#4 I don't exactly understand what do you mean by saying: "so his might be trying to deflect blame from bad security". One thing is for sure, he is angry with his supperiors, politicians involved and neighboring units that haven't done anything for one reason or another.

Subsequently I knew, that S.Raduev on January, 17 has caused taking place in with. May Day two journalists also has ordered subordinated to take one of them in hostages. To second journalist S.Raduev and H.Israpilov, threatening with death of the hostage-journalist, have ordered to proceed on a position of the federal divisions which are taking place on the destroyed bridge through ?. Terek and in one kilometer to the north of the destroyed bridge, with a problem to collect the information on quantity of staff in divisions, arms and mine fields around of the given divisions. For transfer of the information to the journalist the radio station such as "????????" has been transferred. After transfer to insurgents of the necessary information the journalist taken in hostages in the evening on January, 17 has been released on freedom. In December, 2001 I knew, that continuing service in brigade ??? of. Novorossisk ?-? Petrov admits that fact, that from village May Day before break there has come journalist Valery Jakovsky whom it, ?-? Petrov, has lead on a position ??????????? 22 brigades of special troops, and then to our rear and up to ?????? through ?. Terek. Thus the journalist who is taking place on positions by mine ????????????, had been collected the information on quantity and arms of staff of mine ????????????, and also data on absence of mine fields between our boundary of defense and ?. Terek. The complicity to the terrorist groups which have expressed in transfer to terrorists of data on quantitative structure and arms of special divisions, participating in counterterrorist operation agrees Legislations of the Russian Federation, is pursued in the criminal order. In view of insufficient demonstrative base, I nevertheless consider, that imprisonments taking place in places S.Raduev and other members of its terrorist group in a condition to give authentic indications on the above-stated facts. In connection with above-stated I ask you to appoint carrying out of check of the given circumstances and to institute criminal proceedings the journalist who has rendered complicity to terrorists.

And here is another excerpt
On a return way to the helicopter the major has found the bus in which and has sat out in rear glorified "Alpha". ????? in the bus, the major has risen in a forward part of interior and has loudly asked were present: is "Alpha"? Having received the affirmative answer, the major in a pointed manner and with noise has involved in itself all contents ???????????? nasopharynxes and has tastefully spitted on a floor. - Well... What will you say, "Alpha"? In full silence the undersized and puny major with a smile and a call has inspected all fighters of superelite division, but those only allocated eyes aside... Having waited even a minute, but and not having received though any reaction to the tasty spittle, the major was easy developed and has gone to ????????????? to its helicopter. But a command "?" expected much more than unpleasant unexpectedness... Two fighting officers of "Alpha" were before one of fighting machines of infantry when in its tower the young ????????-operator started to go down. It has completely casually pressed electrodescent of already charged instrument which, naturally, has shot. The taken off shell also had been killed two officers of legendary division whom downs casually appeared before a barrel. The lost fighters of group " A " were not beginners and had time to pass Afghanistan and all other hot points of our state. But the military destiny has not stopped to get up to the surprises: casually shot a down it has been aimed at one of extreme houses May Day. And the taken off shell which has torn off lives of two officers of "Alpha" at a shot, on a final site of the trajectory has got in this house and has killed one more Russian military man who too completely casually appeared nearby from a place of hit of an ill-starred shell... It were last lost military men during carrying out of all counterterrorist operation at village May Day. In total was lost twenty nine Russian officers, ????????????? and the soldier. Eleven person it has been killed in ?????????? ??????????; scout Kolenkin has been killed on positions of commandoes; One Novosibirsk militiaman was lost at break and one more Siberian has died from the received wounds in with. ???????????????; six person it has been killed on positions of the first group of the third battalion; the others were lost at storm of village on 15-th of January...

[NcDeuce]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5405

[Marxist203]

And your wrong. These are amateurs. Nobody said that have to stand there and fight it out force on force. My point was that if they were professionals they would lay in a decent ambush.


I reckon people should listen to Deuterium, Ive seen the photos of him "At work" and he is a true professional. Some douche bag Chechen freedom fighter who was barely trained how to use his weapon may be...believe it or not "an Amateur"

Ive seen video's of what sort of bull**** these "Heroic Islamic Freedom Fighters" have done to Russian POW's. It turns by god damn stomach. Lets just hope professionals like Deuterium here make their careers just that much shorter.

[Andyman]

please excuse me for this next post but I'm a little emotional after seeing that video and would just like to say this:

I F*CKING HATE ISLAM

there I said it. Does that necessarily mean I really truly do feel that way, well not quite but almost thats for sure. 90% of the world's conflicts today have Islamic fundamentalists fighting on one side. Talk about a screwed up bunch of people. Generlaizations are completely and entirely wrong, but its kinda hard right now, its just plain hard

[Kingpin]

KINGPIN...You're just the type of person I'm lookin' for...
...To beat the **** out of...!!! :slap:

Begin from yourself. Ok?

[[AFSOC]]

please excuse me for this next post but I'm a little emotional after seeing that video and would just like to say this:

I F*CKING HATE ISLAM

there I said it. Does that necessarily mean I really truly do feel that way, well not quite but almost thats for sure. 90% of the world's conflicts today have Islamic fundamentalists fighting on one side. Talk about a screwed up bunch of people. Generlaizations are completely and entirely wrong, but its kinda hard right now, its just plain hard

WOW...your a fag, 100% of hate in the world today is caused by people like you idiot. SO shut THE FUK UP and stop being so ignorant cause ISLAM is not the ENEMY.

EVERYONE RELIGION has there own radical....like Christianity and the KKK, Muslims and AL Quaeda....blada blada.

[Andyman]

I know all that ish God's Son. I don't actually feel that way, but its just hard not to generalize and get really pissed off at Islam. I mean what do they teach their people that causes them to act this way. Every religion has done it I know so dont use that as an excuse to bash my point. I'm talking about the world today and the future.

[[AFSOC]]

Its not EVERY single group of Islam thats teaching there people that blowing youself up will get you to Paradise.

Most Islamic groups teach the opposite, they do have the ten commandments and they do believe in "Thou Shall not kill".

But when you have Radicals that misinterpret the teachings, thats when hell breaks loose. There's African muslims....you dont hear about them blowing themselves up and stuff. Its only when you have radicals teaching the wrong thing.

The majority of radicals are in the middle east are there only because of events such as GULF WAR 1. How do you think those people felt when they saw there own people being killed by the Coalition? It builds up hate and thats why WAR is not always the answer. I am certain that because of the GULF WAR 2, a new breed of radcals will emerge in years to come.

The war on terror will never end, there will always be people like that....the best thing we can do is to protect ourselves, our homeland. Not to let another 9/11 happen.

[Jack Mehoff]

From this point of view you'd lost in Vietnam. Completely. Just remember what was in US embassy when North Vietnam army arrived in city. :)

Actually, U.S. military won the battles in Vietnam, but we lost the whole war because of ****ty support from the American people.

Also, you are pretty dumb if you compare Iraq to Vietnam. The north Vietnamese supported Ho Chi Minh aka Bac Ho and his ideology. Most Iraqis on the other hand do not support Saddam and they want him out of power.

[Kingpin]

No i'm not dumb. I understand difference between those cases. I agree that most Iraqis see nothing bad that their country occupied. Vietnamese - not.

But from other hand i can tell you about Afganistan. We (USSR) had very good relations with Afganistan in 70's. Many of them studied here. We have a good trade exchange and so on. And when Soviet army entered Afganistan, it did this very fast and effective. Like US now in Iraq it take over all Afganistan in short time and practically without casualties. And many people in Afganistan also for first time didn't see too much trouble in this because historically they was rahter friendly to USSR. But then guerilla war started. And US support to guerillas from one hand and Soviet support of unpopular local regime did their job - resistance become very wide.

All the same now in Iraq - guerillas are supported by some forces and US trying to install unpopular regime based on American understanding of democracy. Who knows to which consequences this will lead?

[16 OBr SpN]

As for that video I don't have any comments. They just use them to report to their sponsors about their "progress".

If we published our video materials it would take some 20-30 webpages to list. In many operations we use cameras, to further analyse the results of the operation. I wish I could give some of them for you guys to watch, but I can't. You would definitely find them very interesting.

I can describe one, but I won't tell names, etc.

There is one village where people make food for guerillas and use very large metal buckets, into which they put it (mostly the grilled whole lamb, plus bread and potatoes). Once every three days the guy comes early in the morning from the small mountainous base to pick that food and take it back to the guerillas.
At night, when they place food inside, the first group quitely infiltrates the yard of the house and puts radio guided explosives on the bottom of each bucket (3 total). The second group awaits in the position overlooking that base. The guy leaves his UAZ on the way, and loads them onto two horses. He then comes to the base and calls for help. They unload buckets and put them inside a "kitchen". After the morning prayer, everyone (22 people) go there to eat, except 3 chechens who are patrolling the perimeter. All 22 of chechens get inside or close to the "kitchen". Snipers acquire 2 guards. Commander gives the order to commence, you hear two almost simultaneous shots, and within a second there goes a HUGE BOOM! The camera gets some distortions. Then a very short gunfight with the last guard.
Guys go inside to check. There are two heavily wounded chechens laying in pain shock. They get control shots in the heads, along with the other chechens whose bodies are more or less "in tact". They mine some of the bodies, because chechens always try bury them. Mission over... It sounds kind of slow, but the whole action is very quick.

Four people were in the first group, and six in the second, 0 losses. :)

This was on of the several hundreds of videos with all sorts of special ops.

[Shadow]

The music rocks!:D
ALLAAHAHHAALALALHAHLLA!!!!!!!

[Vance]

Yeah, that first song was the only redeeming thing in the whole video.

[NcDeuce]

please excuse me for this next post but I'm a little emotional after seeing that video and would just like to say this:

I F*CKING HATE ISLAM

there I said it. Does that necessarily mean I really truly do feel that way, well not quite but almost thats for sure. 90% of the world's conflicts today have Islamic fundamentalists fighting on one side. Talk about a screwed up bunch of people. Generlaizations are completely and entirely wrong, but its kinda hard right now, its just plain hard

WOW...your a fag, 100% of hate in the world today is caused by people like you idiot. SO shut THE FUK UP and stop being so ignorant cause ISLAM is not the ENEMY.

EVERYONE RELIGION has there own radical....like Christianity and the KKK, Muslims and AL Quaeda....blada blada.

The KKK is not really a radical form of Christianity. It is more of a radical domestic organization. Some of the members like to twist the word of God to fit their agenda.

[Mo]

50% of all terrorist organisations are muslim!!!!!!!!!! If it is not a war on islam, then why do they say it's a war against christianity and judiasm????

[pinkeye]

And your wrong. These are amateurs. Nobody said that have to stand there and fight it out force on force. My point was that if they were professionals they would lay in a decent ambush.


I reckon people should listen to Deuterium, Ive seen the photos of him "At work" and he is a true professional. Some douche bag Chechen freedom fighter who was barely trained how to use his weapon may be...believe it or not "an Amateur"

Ive seen video's of what sort of bull**** these "Heroic Islamic Freedom Fighters" have done to Russian POW's. It turns by god damn stomach. Lets just hope professionals like Deuterium here make their careers just that much shorter.

i would underestimate the effectivenessof the "enemy", chechen or otherwise. they may not have the fancy gadgets nor the refined training of western spec ops., but chechen fighters are just as effective if the objective is to kill. many of these guys have been fighting for years, and many come from warrior cultures.

[khukuri]

I reckon people should listen to Deuterium, Ive seen the photos of him "At work" and he is a true professional. Some douche bag Chechen freedom fighter who was barely trained how to use his weapon may be...believe it or not "an Amateur"

Ive seen video's of what sort of bull**** these "Heroic Islamic Freedom Fighters" have done to Russian POW's. It turns by god damn stomach. Lets just hope professionals like Deuterium here make their careers just that much shorter.


Ive seen pictures that shown how those heroic russian boys chained living chechens too btr then driving away with chechens hauled after to death. You mention what chechens do to russian soilders, why not mention how russian soilders rape, murder and torture chechen civilians.

Several russian soilders have repetedly claimed that ALL chechens are terrorists, nomatter if theyre women, elderly and so on. Thats the mentatlity of the russian force. Why not mention that s you so called marxist? Or was the marxist thing just irony?

Ever looked at pictures from grozny

http://www.lurchmag.com/grozny-ap.jpg


Russians bombed the whole city with rocket arty, striking civilians!
Thats the human russian force. Wonder how you guys would react if someone did the same thing to your country? oooooh i know, remember 11 september, the day month that every american started to hate muslim. Even if most of them actually never got effect in the way that some family member gott killed. Well think about this, almost every chechen have either family members or relatives who got killed or detained (tortured and killed).

/over

[...]

So you are going to base your opinion on the 'mentality' of the Russian army based on what some prick overheard from the Russian version of the Lance Corporal Hotline?

[khukuri]

So you are going to base your opinion on the 'mentality' of the Russian army based on what some prick overheard from the Russian version of the Lance Corporal Hotline?

Okay i can agree that i was wrong generelizing the whole russian army. Did that because i was mad and tired of some stuff you read here. But its not a secret that the russian mentality is that all chechens are terrorists. Thats the common statement in the russian streets and the military. And i am not surprised. Because its true that chechen familys maybe support their sons, giving them food and a place to live. But it doesnt justify killing them.

[[AFSOC]]

50% of all terrorist organisations are muslim!!!!!!!!!! If it is not a war on islam, then why do they say it's a war against christianity and judiasm????

Why??? Cause the radicals believe that christians and jews are Infidels....the non believers of ALlah.

Its all history too like with the Crusaders and stuff....

[khukuri]

Actually, its more like were against the western world. And the western world is agaisnt us because theyre christians and so on. Its a way to make a political thing a religious war. Fact is that alot of the muslim organisations enemys are atheists.

Fpr example chechnya, religion doesnt really matter, theyre all against russia. Not all the fighters are muslim. But sence some of them turned to radical islam it gave them more fathe and support from the arab world.

[aktarian]

50% of all terrorist organisations are muslim!!!!!!!!!! If it is not a war on islam, then why do they say it's a war against christianity and judiasm????

Which organisation is responsible for more than 1/2 of suicide bombings?

[Vance]

I would just like to point out that lenin is one of the most uninformed and stupid mofo's ever to come to this board.

''remember 11 september, the day month that every american started to hate muslim''


''And the western world is agaisnt us because theyre christians and so on''


A croc of ****. Where's usa's 'shut the **** up' picture?

[Russian Texan]

Tp Lenin about "humane Chechens"
Russians! Don’t Leave, we need slaves!



The following are the exerpts of Russian refugees testimonies taken during 1991 – 1995. Some of family names have been changed due to murder threats.





Ms. A. Kochedikova, former Grozny resident.

“I fled from Grozny in February 1993 because of constant threats from armed Chechens and non-payment crisis. I left behing my furnished apartment, 2 cars, a garage and fled with my husband. In February 1995 Chechens killed my neighbor on the street (she was born in 1966). They broke her head and ribs, raped her.

The WWII veteran Ms. Yelena Ivanovna was murdered from the neighboring apt.

Starting 1993 it became unbearable to survive, mass murders were everywhere. The cars were blown up with people inside. Russians were fired from their jobs without any reason.

A man was killed in his apt. (he was born in 1935). He was stabbed 9 times, his daughter was raped and killed in the kitchen of their apt.”




Mr. B. Yephankin, former Grozny resident.

“In May 1993 in my garage I was assaulted and battered by 2 Chechens armed with a gun and an automatic gun.

They wanted my car but it was in the repair shop at that moment, so they couldn’t hijack it. They started shooting above my head.

In the fall of 1993 a group of armed Chechens commited an atrocious murder of my friend, Mr. Bolgarsky who refused to voluntarily give away his car “Volga”. It was not the only case, there was a massacre. That’s why I had to leave Grozny.”




Mr. D. Gakuryan, former Grozny resident.

“In November 1994 my Chechen neighbors threatened me with gun and then kicked me out of the apt. and settled down there.”




Ms. P.Kuskova, former Grozny resident.

“On July 1, 1994 four Chechen teens broke my arm and raped me not far from “Red Hammer” plant when I was coming home from work.”




Mr. E. Dapkulinets, former Grozny resident.

“On December 6,7, 1994 I was severely beaten for the refusal to take part in military action together with Ukranean hirelings in the village of Chechen-Aul.”




Ms. E. Barsukova, former Grozny resident.

“In the summer of 1994 from my window I witnessed the hijacking of my neighbor’s car (his name is Mr. Mkrtchan). The armed Chechens approached him and shot him in the leg. Then they got into his car and drove away.”




Ms. G. Tarasova, former Grozny resident.

“On May 6, 1993 my husband – Mr. Tarasov disappeared. I presume that he was taken by force to the mountains by Chechens to work, for he was a welder.”




Ms. E. Khobova, former Grozny resident.

“On December 31, 1994 my husband – Mr. Pogodin and his brother – Mr. Yeryomin were killed by a Chechen sniper when they were taking away the corps of Russian soldiers.”




Ms. N. Trofimova, former Grozny resident.

“In September 1994 Chechens stormed my sisters apt. (Ms. Vishnyakova). They raped her in the presense of her children, beat her son and took away her 12-year old daughter Helen. She never returned home.

From 1993 my son has been severely beaten and robbed by Chechens.”




Ms. Ageeva, former village Petropavlovskaya resident.

“On January 11, 1995 on the village square Russian soldiers were gunned down by Chechens.”




Ms. Khrapova, former Gudermes resident.

“In August 1992 our neighbor Mr. Sarkisyan and his wife were tortured and set on fire alive.”





Mr. Kobzaryev, former Grozny region resident.

“On November 7, 1991 three armed Chechens shot at my country house. Miraculously, I survived. In September 1992 armed Chechens demanded that I leave my apartment and threw a grenade. Soon after that, fearing the death threats my family and I had to leave the republic.”




Ms. Alexandrova, former Grozny resident.

“My daughter was coming home from work one day. The Chechens seized her, dragged into their car, beat her, stabbed and raped her. We had to leave the city.”




Ms. Vdovchenko, former Grozny resident.

“Some days ago, early in the morning my neighbor, a KGB officer, Mr. Tolstenko, was kidnapped by armed Chechens. Later, his mutilated corpse was found. I was told about this by Ms. O.K.” (It really happened in Grozny in 1991)




Ms. Nazarenko, former Grozny resident.

“I stayed in Grozny until November, 1992. President Dudaev was indulgent towards all kinds of crimes against Russians and Chechens were never punished for that. Quite unexpectedly the principal of Grozny State University, Mr. Kan-Kalik disappeared. Later, his corpse was accidentally found in a forest in a pit. He was murdered because he didn’t want to quit his position.”




Ms. Shepetilo, 1981 – y.o.b.

“I lived in Grozny until the end of April 1994. I worked as a principalof Music School, village Kalinovskaya, Naur region. At the end of 1993 I was going home from work to Grozny. The bus was out of order, so I had to take a walk. I heard a car “Zhiguly” pulling over. An armed Chechen got out of it and threatening to kill me, dragged me into the car. He took me to a remote field, beat and raped me.”




Ms. Yunusova.

“My son was kidnapped for 3 weeks for a ranson of 1.5 mln. roubles. They let him go after we paid.”




Ms. M. Portnikh.

“In the spring of 1992 a liquor store on Dyakov St. was robbed. A grenade was thrown into manager’s apartment. Her husband died and her leg had to be amputated.”




Ms. Chekulina, 1949 – y.o.b.

“I left Grozny in March, 1993. My son was robbed 5 times, his clothes taken. On his way to school, the Chechens beat him severely, broke his skull, threatened with knife. I was beaten and raped also only because I’m Russian. The Dean of my son’s faculty was murdered. Before our departure from Grozny, my son’s friend Max was killed.”




Ms. Minkoyeva, 1978 – y.o.b.

“In 1992 in Grozny our neighboring school was attaked. The student of the 7th grade were taken hostages for 1 day. There was a group rape of the whole class and 3 teachers. In 1993 my classmate M. was kidnapped. In the summer of 1993 one man was shot down by Chechens at the railway station.”




Ms. Komarova, former Grozny resident.

“I worked as a pediatric nurse at Clinic #1 in Grozny. We had a nurse, named Totikova. The armed Chechens came in to her house and gunned down all the family. All my life was in fear. One day, President Dudaev raided our clinic with his armed men. He yelled that there was a Russian Genocide, because our building used to be a KGB office long ago. We were all pushed against the walls and threatened. I was not paid for 7 months. An April 1993 I had to leave the city.”




Ms. Yu. Plentyova, 1970 – y.o.b.

“In the summer of 1994 at 1 pm on Khrushchyov Square I witessed an execution of 2 Chechens, 1 Russian an 1 Korean. It was performed by 4 Dudaev’s guardsmen, who brought the above mentioned victims in foreign made cars. One car which was passing by during the execution was damaged and the driver sustained injuries.”





The following has been added on March 20th.





Mr. A. Fedyushkin, 1945 – y.o.b.

“In 1992 disguised armed Chechens hijacked my relative’s car in the village of Chervlyonnaya. In 1992 or 1993 2 armed Chechens tied up my wife (1949 – y.o.b.) and my older daughter (1973 – y.o.b.) and raped them, then they stole our TV, gas range and disappeared. The attackers were wearing masks.

In 1992 in the village of Chervlyonnaya my mother was robbed by some Chechens. They beat her and took away her icon, and a cross.

My brother’s neighbor went driving outside Chervlyonnaya village and disappeared. This car was later found in the mountains and his corpse – in the river 3 months later.”




Ms. V. Doronina.

“At the end of August 1992 my granddaughter was forcibly taken into the car by Chechens, but soon they let her go. In the village of Nizhneviuk (Assinovka) in the children’s home Chechens raped all girls and the teachers.

My son was threatened to be murdered by his neighbor Yunus who demanded that he sell him his house.

At the end of 1991 armed Chechens attacked my relative’s house looking for money. Threatened to kill him and killed his son.”




Mrs. Akinshina, 1961 – y.o.b.

“In August 25, 1992 around midnight in my country house 4 Chechens aged 15-16 raped me. They hit me on my head. After that threatening to kill me they made my dog rape me, too.”




Mr. N. Lobenko, former Grozny resident.

“In the lobby of my apartment building the Chechens gunned down 1 Armenian and 1 Russian man. The Russian was killed because he tried to defend the Armenian.”




Mrs. I. Zabrodina, former Grozny resident.

“One day, Chechens snatched away my purse. In March – April 1994 my daughter who worked at a boarding school was raped and beaten by a drunk Chechen who came into the school. Then he tried to kill her. She was lucky to escape.

I also witnessed the robbery of the neighboring house. The tenants were in a bomb shelter at that time.”




Ms. O. Kalchenko, former Grozny resident.

“My co-worker, a young girl of 22 years old, was raped and gunned down by a group Chechens in front of my office building. Later, I was threatened with knife and robbed of my only money by 2 Chechens.”




Mr. V. Karagedin, former Grozny resident.

“Chechens killed my younger son – 04.01.94 and also my older son – 08.01.95.”




Mr. Dzuba, former Grozny resident.

“All the residents were urged to take Chechens citizenship. In case of refusal, they would not get food stamps.”




Ms. Abidzhaliyeva, former Grozny resident.

“We fleed from Grozny on Jan. 13, 1995 because Chechens wanted us to defend them from Russian military. They beat my brother for his refusal to join their guards.”




Mr. O. Borichevsky, former Grozny resident.

In April 1993 our apartment was robbed by Chechens in “Special Forces” uniforms. They robbed us of all the valuables we had.”




Ms. N/ Kolesnikova, former Grozny resident.

“On Dec. 2, 1993 on the bus stop “36th microregion” 5 Chechens took me forcibly into a near garage, beat me up, raped me and then threw me into the car. After that they took me to different apartments where they raped me and injected drugs. They let me go only on Dec. 5, 1993.”




Ms. A.Kurbanova, Ms. O.Kurbanova, Mr. L.Kurbanov, former Grozny residents.

“Our neighbors – T. (father, mother, son and daughter) were all murdered by Chechens in their apt.”




Ms. Fefelova, former Grozny resident.

“Our neighbor’s daughter, a girl of 12 years old, was kidnapped by Chechens. Later, they started sending them pictures of her being raped and tortured. They demanded a ransom.”




Ms. Saniyeva, former Grozny resident.

“During the battles in Grozny I saw women – snipers among. Dudaev’s guards.”




Ms. L. Davidova, former Grozny resident.

“In August 1993 3 Chechens attacked my neighbor’s house in Gudermess. They pushed the husband under the bed and atrociously raped the wife (they also used some objects). In a week, the woman died. My kitchen was set on fire on Dec. 31, 1994.”




Ms. Lisitskaya, former Grozny resident.

“I used to live near a railway station. Used to witness daily robbery of the trains. On Jan. 1, 1995 some Chechens visited me demanding money for guns and ammunition.”




Ms. Tselikina, former Grozny resident.

“On November 2, 1994 my daughter Anjela was kidnapped by Chechens.”




Mrs. Sukhorukova, former Grozny resident.

“In early April 1993 our apt. was robbed by Chechens. In late April our car was hijacked. On May 10, 1994 my husband Bardasaryan was gunned down on the street.”




Ms. Rudinskaya.

“In 1993 my apt. in the village of Novomaryevskaya was robbed by armed Chechens. They took away all valuables. My mother and I were raped and tortured by knife. In spring of 1993 my father- and mother-in-law were severely beaten on the street.”




Ms. Bochkaryova, Kalinovskaya village former resident.

“The Dudaev guards took hostages: Mr. Belyayev – the principal of the school, his vice principal – Mr. Plotnikov, and the director of the farm Kalinovski” – Mr. Erin. They demanded a ransom of 12 mln. roubles. When they didn’t get it, they killed the hostages.”




Ms. Ya. Nefedova, former Grozny resident.

“On Jan. 13, 1991 my husband and I were robbed by Chechens in our own apt. They took all valuables, even my ear rings.”




Ms. V. Malashin, former Grozny resident.

“On Jan. 9, 1995 my wife and I were visiting our friends. Their apt. was attacked by 3 armed Chechens. They robbed us all and raped my wife and her friend.”




Mr. Yu. Usachov, Mr. F. Usachov.

“In Dec. 20, 1994 we were beaten by Dudaev’s guards because we refused to join their army.”




Ms. Kalganova, former Grozny resident.

“My Armenian neighbors were robbed by Chechens and their 15-year old daughter was raped. In 1993 the Prokhorov family was attacked, too.”




Ms. Plotnikova, former Grozny resident.

“In the winter of 1992, my neighbors and I were attacked by armed Chechens. They took away our property ownerships. I left my apartment, garage and a country house. My son and a daughter witnessed the murder of our neighbor – B. who was gunned down.”




Ms. Makharin, former Grozny resident.

“On Nov. 19, 1994 my family was attacked by armed Chechens. We were thrown away from our car (my wife and the kids). We were beaten by legs, the ribs were broken. My wife was raped. They took away our car and the belongings.”




Ms. M. Vasilyeva, former Grozny resident.

“In Sep. 1994 2 chechen guards raped my 19-year old daughter.”




Ms. N. Kovrizhkin, former Grozny resident.

“In oct. 1992 Dudaev declared a total mobilization from 15 to 50. I worked for a railroad company. During our working hours we were guarded like prisoners. In Gudermes station I witnessed a murder of a man who was gunned down. Chechens said they had killed because of a feud.”




Mr. A. Fedorov, former Grozny resident.

“In 1993, Chechens robbed my apt. In 1994, they robbed me of my car. I turned to police. When I saw my car a few days later with armed Chechens inside, also reported to police.

I was told to forget about the car, threatened and ordered to leave Chechnya.”




Mr. A Burmurzayev, former Grozny resident.

“On Nov. 1994, I became a witness of how Chechens set on fire 6 tanks with their crew belonging to their opposition.”




Ms. Panteleeva, former Grozny resident.

“In 1991, Dudaev’s guards stormed the Ministry of Internal Affairs building, killing the officers, one colonel and injuring a major.

The same year The Principal of Grozny State University Mr. Kan-Kalik was kidnapped and killed together with a vice-principal.

My parents’ apt. was attacked by 3 armed Chechens in masks. One of them was in police uniform. Threatening to kill them or torture with hot iron, they robbed them of 750.000 roubles and a car.”




Ms. E. Dudina, former Grozny resident.

“In the summer of 1994 I was beaten by Chechens on the street. My husband and my son were also beaten. They took my son’s watch. Then they grabbed me and took me to a nearest apt. building where in the lobby raped me.

My friend told me that one day when she was traveling by train to Krasnodar in 1993, the train was stopped. A group of armed Chechens entered it. They robbed all the passengers of money and valuables. One young girl was raped and thrown out of the train at full speed.”




Ms. Udalova, former Gudermes resident.

“On August 2, 1994 my house was attacked by 2 Chechens. They cut my mother’s throat, and we were lucky to defend ourselves. One of the attackers was my former high school student. I turned to police for protection, but after it they started to threaten me and my son. I sent my son and my relatives to Stavropol region and later left.

My pursuers exploded my house on Nov. 21, 1994.”




Ms. V. Fedorova, former Grozny resident.

“In April 1993 my friend’s daughter was kidnapped by Chechens. Later, she was found raped and dead.

My other friend was also raped by Chechens on her way home.

On May 17, 1993 in the lobby of my apartment house 2 young Chechens tried to rape me. My neighbor – an elderly Chechen – defended me.

In Sept. 1993 I was riding a car with my friend. We were stopped by a group of Chechens. They beat my friend and hit me in my face.”






This website has some other first hand stories that would explain later Russian cruelty towards Chechens
http://www.anycities.com/user/conrad/english/english.htm

[khukuri]

The only ****ed up mofo here is you! I was trying to explain how the extremist explain the reasons behind their religious war moron.



''And the western world is agaisnt us because theyre christians and so on''


A croc of ****. Where's usa's 'shut the f*** up' picture?

@russian texan, the stuffed you entered above,, source? i can agree that alot of awful things made by chechens against russian. But the same is made by russians against chechens. The forum here have chosen to only condem the chechen acts, nobody even mentions the russian mass arrests without any real suspession, people just disappering when captured by soilders, the rapes, and when russian soilders come and looter chechen civilians houses. And so on.

I will come back later with something just like you did.

[khukuri]

@vance The only f*** up mofo here is you! I was trying to explain how the extremist explain the reasons behind their religious war moron.



''
A croc of ****. Where's usa's 'shut the f*** up' picture?

@russian texan, the stuffed you entered above,, source? i can agree that alot of awful things made by chechens against russian. But the same is made by russians against chechens. The forum here have chosen to only condem the chechen acts, nobody even mentions the russian mass arrests without any real suspession, people just disappering when captured by soilders, the rapes, and when russian soilders come and looter chechen civilians houses. And so on.

I will come back later with something just like you did.[/quote]

[khukuri]

What some individuals doesnt mean that yyou can blame a whole group russians/chechens by genrelizing. But when you shoot rock.arty over a civilian town and knowing that alot of civilians would die, that is not an individual act and thus you can blaim russian for it, that russian military dont put it soilders on trial for abusing human rights that you can blaim russia for. Thats the difference.


@RussianTexan, did I say that the chechen fighters were human? No I think their titally crazy! But i still think in the longer run the cause us theirs, I support a free chechnya. But t doesnt matter for this Discussion, thats another discussion.

http://www.ushmm.org/
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

Violence Against Civilians
As in 1994-1996, the fighting since 1999 has been catastrophic for civilians. The Russian siege of Grozny left that city in ruins, and other built-up areas that were held by rebels, however temporarily, sustained enormous damage as Russian forces indiscriminately used air and artillery bombardment. Both sides fought the war without regard to the safety of civilians, although the vast Russian superiority in numbers and firepower took a much greater toll.
The end of large-scale fighting has not meant security for civilians in Chechnya. Hundreds of thousands of Chechens who fled their homes for refugee camps in Ingushetia and elsewhere in the region remain displaced. Even though conditions in those camps are poor, the situation is worse where they came from. Those who do remain in Chechnya, especially men between the ages of 15 and 49, face the threat of theft, beatings, arrest, and murder by Russian soldiers during so-called zachistki -- door to door searches for rebels -- and at roadblocks. Detainees often get swept into a system of "filtration" camps, where torture is routine, before being ransomed back to their families or killed. Many simply disappear.
Although Russian authorities acknowledge some abuses, the number of admitted abuses is much lower than those calculated by human rights organizations. And accountability is virtually nonexistent, as the Russians fail to thoroughly investigate most human rights violations. They also impede access of international monitors, human rights and humanitarian organizations, and the media.
http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/chechnya/chechnya.php


Chechen Disappearances

Displaced Chechens living in Ingushetia have been told they must all return to Chechnya by the end of September 2003. The Russian government cites as advances the March 2003 constitutional referendum and forthcoming Presidential elections scheduled for October 5, 2003.

But many Chechens still fear for their safety. Among their fears are extra-judicial killings, torture, and disappearance. In fact disappearances in Chechnya have increased over the past year, and Russian security forces are extending the practice to reach Chechens in Ingushetia.

The use of "disappearances" to terrorize a population is at least as old as the Holocaust. In a December 7, 1941, decree, Adolf Hitler ordered that people resisting German occupation simply disappear into the "Night and Fog." Most were sent to concentration camps.

In 1992, the United Nations General Assembly declared enforced disappearances "an offence to human dignity" and condemned the practice "as a grave and flagrant violation of the human rights and fundamental freedoms proclaimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." According to the statute of the International Criminal Court, "enforced disappearance of persons" can be a crime against humanity. The statute defines "enforced disappearance of persons" as "the arrest, detention or abduction of persons by, or with the authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time."

For more information about displaced Chechens and their security concerns, see the transcript of a COC event, "Chechnya: The Forgotten War?" and a Medecins Sans Frontieres report, "Return to Chechnya?"

[Russian Texan]

The source is the link at the bottom of the message. Also there you'll be able to find some other first hand accounts on what was going on there and pictures of Grizny before and after.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chechen genocide preceeded Russian invasion, so naturally payback is a bitch... It is the same thing that happened when russians entered Germany in WW2: eye for an eye... Although in chechens case they have long way to go, I don't remember hearing any stories about russians kiddnaping chechens and puting them to slave labor, skinning them alive and such...

In one of your previous posts you have referred to seeing the video in which russian BMP was dragging Chechen man till he died. I have also seen this video, it dates to the beggining of the 2nd Chechen war, and I think that both man (there was two tied together) were dead before the dragging because you could see the bullet holes in their bodies.

One more thing to note: It is very easy so sit in a luxury of your home many miles away and talk about being humane, somehow I think that all those humanists attitude would change if it was them or their friends, relatives, loved ones who had the experiences described in my previous post.

[khukuri]

RussianTexan wrote
"It is very easy so sit in a luxury of your home many miles away and talk about being humane, somehow I think that all those humanists attitude would change if it was them or their friends, relatives, loved ones who had the experiences described in my previous post."

Exactly, you not thinking objectivly because youre so full of hatred that you cant see things clarly. I am at the other hand neither chechen nor russian, I am not full of hatred against russians.

Oh trust me russian i am not a westerner humanist sitting on my couch and condeming everybody, I am from Irak and ive been through **** just so you know.

And by the way what did that mean, that its okay to torture people and do collective punishment like revenge.


You say that chechens started first? Thats not true, chechens have been discriminated by russians long time ago, in alot of ways, ill come back to that, trust me, you said it yourself , Eye for an eyre , toot for a tooth.

The dragging video, aftre the hauling, they were not dead all of them, some of them still lived, and its not that video, ive seen several. Its no secret what russian soilders are doing in chechnya.

And still you havent answered about the rocket.art bombing civilians thing.

I have to go now, I am going away for the weekend, so if I dont reply the comming 2 days its not because i Dont have an answer, its just because i dont have internet acces. I ll be back posting and responding.

[Russian Texan]

To Lenin

There is so much missinformation in your posts - I don't even know where to start.

First of all lets talk about "zachistki", filtration camps and misstreatment of "15 to 49 years old males" Wouldn't be that people of the age group that you have mentioned be in their prime for a guerilla warfare? Russian troops in Chechnya perform simple test, they take suspects shirt of and look at his/her shoulder and then it's all clear... because you see, a lot of the "freedom fighters" are writing letters to humanitarian organizations about how they are being obused during day time and attack russian troops during nights. And yes, people do get executed on the spot, I'll tell you even more: if I'm a russian soldier and have a fresh memory of my comrade being skinned alive by chechens and I discover the one with the "black shoulder"- trust me, I'll pump him full of lead right on the spot, look at me I'm so uncivilazed...

Speaking of "zachistki"

At carrying out of actions on zachistka settlements prominent feature has come to light. So, in traditionally proRussian northern areas of republic ???????? were carried out " under the full program " - the hunting weapon was withdrawn even. Whereas in the central areas of the Chechen Republic ???????? were carried out by " a soft variant ". In case of detection of the weapon, was to show the sanction to storage of automatic device AKM ? enough... As the weapon of the self-defense, signed by plenipotentiary N. Koshman. Those actions which were carried out in the south of republic to name ?????????? in general it is impossible. In ?????? the chapter of city administration has brought and has handed over to the Russian armies ten faulty automatic devices. After that forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs were included in city. Into houses did not come, selectively checked documents. The main criterion of loyalty - presence of a local registration. It is quite possible, that while soldiers about a gate studied the passport of the house owner, in the house the armed insurgents sat and watched TV. Similar zachistki last for some hours, and its productivity is equal to zero. The same occured and in other settlements to the south of Terek. Employees Irkutsk Omon participants of clearing of Gudermes, have told to us, that, ????? in city one of the first, again have collided that at its many inhabitants - the documents allowing storage and carrying of the fighting weapon, given besides Koshman's administration! As a rule, elders yet the "not released" settlements in advance come to new administration of the Chechen Republic to meet armies, having on hands the documents confirming them of power. To me have told about one such episode. The chapter of administration of village which should be smoothed out, was on negotiations with the Russian command with already received document certifying its status. Has therein acquainted militarians with letters of own composition: in Office of Public Prosecutor, a number of other establishments, including the international organizations. In these letters all atrocities and crimes during zacistka were very vividly described and it didn't even happen yet!!!. In a course ???????? of some settlements Shalinskogo of area in hospitals hardly wounded insurgents have been found out. Commands on their arrest has not followed, and after a while wounded men safely from hospitals have disappeared. One of special divisions of the Ministry of Internal Affairs has found out the next underground shop of handicraft manufacturing of the weapon for insurgents - mortars, grenade cup discharges and anti-tank ?????. Shop intended to destroy, but... The hail "from above" has sounded: " to not dare! " It appears, this shop - not so masterful on manufacturing ???????????? the weapon, and " object of a national economy ".
The excerpt above shows where human rights activists get their info from.

Here is an example "innocent" chechens
A column of trucks and BMPs moves down the road but has to stop due to the peaceful demostration ahead made up of kids, women and elderly . Once column stops, "freedom fighters" emerge from the crowd and open up with RPGs, machine guns and sniper fire... The rest follows the scenario seen in the "Rules of engagement".

As for bombed out cities and use of artillery, you do know that Groznyi was a heavily fortified city with the extensive preparations made before the arrival of the russian troops? You do remember Stalingrad and the way it looked, well, guess what - Groznyi was a modern day Stalingrad with house to house fighting, snipers and civilians inbetween.
http://lib.dnipro.net/library/koi/MEMUARY/CHECHNYA/grozny_engl.txt

Here is another example

The next messages about " execution by the Russian aircraft of a column with refugees " do not receive acknowledgement. " Humanitarian accident " in Ingushetia in actual fact appeared no more than virtual. And quite real humanitarian help has got on counters of markets Sleptsovskoj, Nazran and ?????????????????. And the "humanitarian" goods here so many that, having overflown the markets, it partly supersedes ??????????????? and the industrial goods of the domestic manufacturer. In due time the lie about events in village Samashki became a core of all antiRussian propaganda campaign. Therefore aspirations of the certain forces to create a similar symbol and in the second Chechen campaign are quite clear. As such symbol the western and some Russian mass-media have chosen settlement Alhan-Jurt. The plot is enough idle time: execution of peace inhabitants drunk ??????????????. It is necessary to note, that for the opponent this settlement has key value in defense Terrible. Strategic value of settlement confirms that fact, that over its defense supervised personally ??????. In ?????-???? occupy from hundred, and on other data, up to four hundred mercenaries. Most likely, among them there were few Chechens: radionegotiations between insurgents have gone exclusively on - ???????. The mercenary-pro have created ?????????????????????? defense of settlement, have established controlled mine fields. On December, 21 the elder, assuring the Russian command, that in village is not present insurgents, have trapped armies. The division, was involved by a marching column in ?????-??? then it was surrounded with mercenaries and, striking blows, ???????? on three groups. Two groups managed to escape from settlement. The third has been destroyed by insurgents, the two soldier, taken in a captivity, are decapitated. Parts of the Western grouping have undertaken storm of village. Insurgents, understanding, that delivery ?????-???? will cut off ways of deviation for all ??????????? groupings of rebels, have undertaken desperate resistance. Fierce fights were developed on approaches to village. One of ?????? ????????? divisions stormed settlement within several days.The artillery, helicopters ??????? supports have been involved. The commander the Western grouping general-major Shamanov supervised over operation. Preliminary, to avoid loss among the peace population, the Russian command has used the best efforts for its evacuation from ?????-????. Therefore losses among "???????" managed to be avoided. Only western part of settlement has suffered from bombardments - some houses are destroyed and damaged. Actually, all this, as to a real situation. Events which have served as the reason for occurrence here vice-premier N. Koshmana6 and military Office of Public Prosecutor further begin. In the heat of the moment "deputy" motor-arrows, before easy protecting the lorry with various property have got. The lead investigation of military Office of Public Prosecutor has denied all charges against the Russian militarians. Really, the stolen property appeared extraction of marauders. It was found out, that carpets and video have been collected by mercenaries from houses of local residents ?????-????, thrown by them at deviation. Under the certificate of the military Office of Public Prosecutor, originally the detained military men have been released. Military men of a grouping have regarded actions of plenipotentiary in the Chechen Republic N.Koshman as provocation and an act discrediting the militarian.

There are plenty more of the similar examples.

You have mentioned that in the long run free Chechnya is better. Really, and what do you think happened back in '97? I have already made couple of posts regarding Russian/Chechen history, look them up.


And by the way what did that mean, that its okay to torture people and do collective punishment like revenge
I have meant that rage is impossible to control and especially on the battlefield after seeing what chechens do to russians.


Although Russian authorities acknowledge some abuses, the number of admitted abuses is much lower than those calculated by human rights organizations. And accountability is virtually nonexistent, as the Russians fail to thoroughly investigate most human rights violations. They also impede access of international monitors, human rights and humanitarian organizations, and the media

Are those the same organizations that have closed their offices in Iraq because it is "too dangerous for them to perform their duties"(sarcasm). What you don't hear is that they have closed their offices in Chechnya long time ago because and refuse to come back after multiple foringers were kiddnaped, held for ransom and decapitated. Besides I have already explained their sources. To me human rights activists are almost the same as journalists and how I feel about them you can see in my footnote.

Will be glad to disperse any other myths you have about Russian involvement in Chechnya.

[earl]

Just to bring some photos back into the strictly photo discussion here at 'photos.net, my friend put together a great gallery of all the good chechnya photos he's found. Much easier to navigate than all the other ones I've seen.

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/

[He219]

Wow, that kind of destruction looks almost like Iraq ;)

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_000938.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_000306.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_001012.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_001077.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_001113.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_000537.jpg

Good thing those^ were just government buildings... :P

[Russian Texan]

I still think that tactical nuclear missiles should have been used but it's just me...

[One?]

The Crusades started because Christians thought muslims are infidels. So that circle will never end. No matter what your religion or race is there will always be wars. People will always find a reason to start a war.

Without wars our ecnomies will be ****....so lets live with it.

[Ratamacue]

As terrible as the Crusades were, they opened up major trade between the Middle East and Europe, quite a beneficial thing.

[Deuterium]

Wow, that kind of destruction looks almost like Iraq ;)

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_000938.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_000306.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_001012.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_001077.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_001113.jpg

http://filin.benutzer.ru/chechnya/bigimages/chech_000537.jpg

Good thing those^ were just government buildings... :P

No that looks like the Balkans.

[Argyll]

I think thats somewhere in Chechnya.......maybe even Grozny

[Kingpin]

I think thats somewhere in Chechnya.......maybe even Grozny

It is "even Grozny". ;) Other cities of Chechnya were not defended by insurgents and thus they were not destroyed in this way (i don't count some villages where intensive action also took place)

[UkrainianSpetsnaz]

it's Grozny. And outskirts. One of those buildings is near sniper allay, hundreds on both sides have died there because of all the spots to hide in da ruble.

My motto is "The only good chechen, is a dead chechen"

BTW I think it's the 2nd pic that looks like pics I have seen before, i think its near sniper allay.

[Argo AdAm]

My motto is "The only good chechen, is a dead chechen"
Everything in this world is very simple. Isn't it... :cantbeli:
This reminds me something...something about how once "the oppressed" people were defending against evil incorporated in Indians, by conquering and pacifying Indian's land... :|
Strategy similiary to this was also used by Germans in W.W. II, when they were to trying to "carry the civilization" to some nations on the East Europe and Asia... :|