United States of America: The world's only SUPER-power?

[xwar]

Hello all.

You might remember a post I made not that long ago that asked how, if any way possible, another coutnry could invade main-land US.

Now, here is the new question. Pick one of the four countrys that follow and describe how the United States would invade them if it were necessary.

I will put the easiest one first in the list. Then the next 3, be creative with.

1. Iran
2. Russia
3. Germany
4. China

This is just for "war game" type of discussion, or a what if. How would you go about commanding US forces to invade one of the four?

Have fun.

[EsoognomEhT]

Easy, put poison in the yank fast food they eat there.

[angry cow]

Impossible, we are already immune to most toxins thanks to such benevolent corporations as McDonalds and Burger King.

[stuntman]

Well if it was the other way around.

Well Germany is done already...
Iran is definitely a much more complicated version of the special forces war of taking down the taliban. And I believe the rest will follow.

Now Russian and China are another thing. I think special forces should just some how start hit and run attacks on the border dressed in each others uniforms. Then escalate it by launching a domestic (Russian or Chinease) stlye Cruise missle and let them fight it out. Now the one who is losing, after many deaths and loss of infrastructure will have to some how ask the U.S. for assistance and just simply play both sides. Then get the airborne divisions to just drop into Moscow and Beijing hold them and negotiate for something we want (oil, gold, chicks etc...) . But in order to secure the release of our airborne divisions(safely), threaten both states by telling them "if they don't let our boys come home we will give Japan and Chechnya nuclear weapons with the intent to use them" because of secret treaties or protection packs we signed with them.

This is fun, feel free to poke holes..

[HardThunder]

Now, here is the new question. Pick one of the four countrys that follow and describe how the United States would invade them if it were necessary.

I will put the easiest one first in the list. Then the next 3, be creative with.

1. Iran
2. Russia
3. Germany
4. China


1. We would need a great many more troops, it would be easyer to get them to fight each other.
2. Same
3. Why? Unless for the German Females.
4. Very big problem. We would need a great deal of help.

[CountZero]

regarding China the war would be very prolonged and bloody since the chinese would probably use attrition to win the war. eg human wave

[TheBelgian]

Well, i think that the US could probably manage to take Iran the way they did Iraq. The thing with taking ermany is, they have a rather more advanced military, but besides that, an invasion of germany would, demand a response from the rest of NATO and the EU. So it would no longer be merely a US-German matter, but the US would have to content with countries like France, Britain (nukes) and Canada (position). When these countries declare was on the USA, the US has no choice to eliminate them innn order to continue supplying its invasion force in Germany. Of course tghis is all assuming that pro US countries like Spain or the UK dont weasel over to the US side, and assuming that the EU countries and Canada actually declare war.
Russia and China could not be occupied. Forget about it. We've seen the trouble the US is having occupying and pacifying Iraq. Now we're talking about the 1st and 3rd largest countires in the world, both with mammoth militaries. Sure thier militaries are outdated, but still large enough to pose a challenge of magnitute, and lets not forget their nuclear arsenals. Also, the country side of China and Russia offers a near infinite amount of hiding places where resistance militias could hide out between anti US raids. And seeing how both countires have a very nationlist population, you can bet your ass there would be resistance. So, in the case of China, Russia and probably Germany;, the US simply wouldnt be able to occupy this country. They would have to destroy them, vaporise them with nukes.

[szr]

Well, i think that the US could probably manage to take Iran the way they did Iraq. The thing with taking ermany is, they have a rather more advanced military, but besides that, an invasion of germany would, demand a response from the rest of NATO and the EU. So it would no longer be merely a US-German matter, but the US would have to content with countries like France, Britain (nukes) and Canada (position). When these countries declare was on the USA, the US has no choice to eliminate them innn order to continue supplying its invasion force in Germany. Of course tghis is all assuming that pro US countries like Spain or the UK dont weasel over to the US side, and assuming that the EU countries and Canada actually declare war.
Russia and China could not be occupied. Forget about it. We've seen the trouble the US is having occupying and pacifying Iraq. Now we're talking about the 1st and 3rd largest countires in the world, both with mammoth militaries. Sure thier militaries are outdated, but still large enough to pose a challenge of magnitute, and lets not forget their nuclear arsenals. Also, the country side of China and Russia offers a near infinite amount of hiding places where resistance militias could hide out between anti US raids. And seeing how both countires have a very nationlist population, you can bet your ass there would be resistance. So, in the case of China, Russia and probably Germany;, the US simply wouldnt be able to occupy this country. They would have to destroy them, vaporise them with nukes.Why would we want to occupy any of those places? If there's anything we've learned from Iraq, it's that occupation is like trudging through a marsh -- it's slow going and it sucks. War with any of the countries you named would be wars to destroy (or otherwise render impotent), not to occupy.

Also, who says the NATO alliance would exist one second beyond the time two of its own members declared war on each other -- especially if the US was one of the waring parties? I don't think the alliance would last long enough for its members to even consider what their collective action should be. I hope that never happens as NATO was the first treaty of alliance the US signed to since the 1778 treaty with France.

[a deadly fart]

Like those above me have stated, an occupation of China is just not possible. Second I know this was all a hypothetical but war with China would be an economic disastor for the US and many other economies. How about a unconventional covert war while at the same time destroying the crops and food source to produce a huge humanitarian crisis to preoccupy their large army. Yeah my ideas aren't well thought out but this is a hypothetical assuming no outside interference.

[Parzival]

Germany?
Why would we invade Germany? Holy smoke, they are our allies!
We would also have to deal with the European Union equal-> Nuke-war It's like to commit suicide on earth.

[n.ignomo]

By the way, you forgot that most of last wars have been won becasue of one thing you seem to forget. Today's way to win a war is to control the sky. Irak had no planes, Ksonovo had no planes, plus they had no SAMs. Now get to Germany (have to fly over France), most of your planes won't even go far enough in German territory before getting downed.

[szr]

By the way, you forgot that most of last wars have been won becasue of one thing you seem to forget. Today's way to win a war is to control the sky. Irak had no planes, Ksonovo had no planes, plus they had no SAMs. Now get to Germany (have to fly over France), most of your planes won't even go far enough in German territory before getting downed.Right, because it's impossible to fly in from the North, Baltic, or Adriatic seas.

Now in some imaginary war where some genius war planner issues an edict that US planes "have to fly over France" here are the numbers involved that each side can draw from:

Fighter/Interceptors -

French Air Force:
Dassault Rafale B/C 79/52** Interception/Attack
Dassault Mirage 2000C 64 Interception
Dassault Mirage 2000-5F 37* Interception
Dassault Mirage F.1C 20 Interception
Dassault Mirage F.1C-200 13 Interception
Dassault Mirage F.1CT 40 Interception/Attack
French Naval Aviation:
Rafale M 60* Test/Interception/Attack
Super Etendard 48 Interception/Attack
** = on order.
* = on delivery.

vs.

USAF Active duty:
MDD F-15A/B/C/D Eagle 399 Fighter
MDD F-15E Strike Eagle 212 Fighter/Attack
Lockheed F-16A/B Fighting Falcon 3/17 Fighter/Attack
Lockheed F-16C/D Fighting Falcon 590/128 Fighter/Attack
Lockheed F-22A Raptor 16 Fighter
AFRC:
Lockheed F-16C/D Fighting Falcon 63/11 Fighter/Attack
ANG:
MDD F-15A/B/C/D Eagle 110 Interception
Lockheed F-16A/B Fighting Falcon 36/23 Fighter/Attack
Lockheed F-16C/D Fighting Falcon 433/41 Fighter/Attack
US Naval Aviation:
Grumman F-14A/B/D Tomcat 36/63/46 Int/Attack/Recce
Boeing F/A-18A/B Hornet 99/26 Int/Attack/Train
Boeing F/A-18C/D Hornet 318/43 Int/Attack/Train
Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet 54/64 Int/Attack/Train
USMC Aviation:
Boeing F/A-18A/B/C Hornet 81/4/86 Attack/Int./Recce
Boeing F/A-18D Hornet 95 Attack/Int./Recce
From: http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/countriesindex.htm

[Sayeret]

By the way, you forgot that most of last wars have been won becasue of one thing you seem to forget. Today's way to win a war is to control the sky. Irak had no planes, Ksonovo had no planes, plus they had no SAMs. Now get to Germany (have to fly over France), most of your planes won't even go far enough in German territory before getting downed.

I'd say that an invasion of Germany would be the most difficult war the US were to have in several years but it wouldn't be unwinnable. The US military isn't only effective with it's Air Force. In Iraq much of the fighting has been done by ground forces. I'd assume the US would carry out air strikes and cruise missile strikes at it's airfields before sending in ground forces to occupy land.

[Sayeret]

Like those above me have stated, an occupation of China is just not possible. Second I know this was all a hypothetical but war with China would be an economic disastor for the US and many other economies. How about a unconventional covert war while at the same time destroying the crops and food source to produce a huge humanitarian crisis to preoccupy their large army. Yeah my ideas aren't well thought out but this is a hypothetical assuming no outside interference.

An occupation of China wouldn't be impossible. It would definitely be very difficult but not impossible. Even though China is a large country large parts of it have been occupied or pretty much controlled by other nations. The Mongolians in the middle ages, the British in the late 1800s, and the Japanese during World War II.

[Lokos]

You really want to use the Japanese and the British as examples of 'occupiers' of China?

1) How much of China did Britain hold, exactly, in your opinion?

2) Do you know how many Japanese soldiers died in the 'occupation' of China, whilst only really controlling a handful of major cities?

As for the rest of this thread:

Everything said here is redundant. If a foreign power was in a position to force capitulation on the Russians, their nuclear arsenal would be utilized - you can bet your ass on that.

The same, I believe, would go for China.

Now, whoever suggested dropping an airborne division in Moscow.... :backhand: Bad monkey. Moscow is one of the most heavily defended (AA-wise) cities on this planet. The USAAF would *pay* for the right to even get *near* that city. The payment would take the form of aircraft and pilots, needless to say.

And the US Army doesn't have airborne divisions anymore, if I'm not mistaken (am I?). Last I heard, the airborne were converted to air assault - and that's not exactly the same thing in the classic sense.

Of course, I could be wrong about that last thing. Feel free to correct me.

Lokos

[szr]

And the US Army doesn't have airborne divisions anymore, if I'm not mistaken (am I?). Last I heard, the airborne were converted to air assault - and that's not exactly the same thing in the classic sense.The 82nd Airborne Division is still a classic para division.

[Freibier]

Well, why would you want to invade us for?
I mean you have bases here and you can simply come for vacation if you like? :P
If you would want to occupy us, you would find out what nuclear suicide bombers, bacteriological and chemical agents could do to major US cities ...
Same with Russia, well not exactly the same - they would just nuke the **** outta USA.
China - dunno, also won't happen without experiencing a little nuclear holocaust yourselves.
Iran - hmm, 3 times the size of troops currently in iraq, much more heavy armor and hope that they don't use chemical/biological agents on your assembly areas

[szr]

Well, why would you want to invade us for?
I mean you have bases here and you can simply come for vacation if you like? :P
If you would want to occupy us, you would find out what nuclear suicide bombers, bacteriological and chemical agents could do to major US cities ...
Same with Russia, well not exactly the same - they would just nuke the **** outta USA.
China - dunno, also won't happen without experiencing a little nuclear holocaust yourselves.
Iran - hmm, 3 times the size of troops currently in iraq, much more heavy armor and hope that they don't use chemical/biological agents on your assembly areasExactly. And before any of those countries could do any of that to us, we'd have already done it to them, so we wouldn't be able to occupy them anyway! ..Unless we wanted to turn our soldiers into radioactive mutants... p-)

[CountZero]

Well, why would you want to invade us for?
I mean you have bases here and you can simply come for vacation if you like? :P
If you would want to occupy us, you would find out what nuclear suicide bombers, bacteriological and chemical agents could do to major US cities ...
Same with Russia, well not exactly the same - they would just nuke the **** outta USA.
China - dunno, also won't happen without experiencing a little nuclear holocaust yourselves.
Iran - hmm, 3 times the size of troops currently in iraq, much more heavy armor and hope that they don't use chemical/biological agents on your assembly areasExactly. And before any of those countries could do any of that to us, we'd have already done it to them, so we wouldn't be able to occupy them anyway! ..Unless we wanted to turn our soldiers into radioactive mutants... p-)

Roarr! Hulk Smash! :D

[Freibier]

Well, why would you want to invade us for?
I mean you have bases here and you can simply come for vacation if you like? :P
If you would want to occupy us, you would find out what nuclear suicide bombers, bacteriological and chemical agents could do to major US cities ...
Same with Russia, well not exactly the same - they would just nuke the **** outta USA.
China - dunno, also won't happen without experiencing a little nuclear holocaust yourselves.
Iran - hmm, 3 times the size of troops currently in iraq, much more heavy armor and hope that they don't use chemical/biological agents on your assembly areasExactly. And before any of those countries could do any of that to us, we'd have already done it to them, so we wouldn't be able to occupy them anyway! ..Unless we wanted to turn our soldiers into radioactive mutants... p-)
Oh well,
nuclear attacks on central europe, russia would definately be the end of this planet - you would have to be very desperate to employ such measures :P
You know, the nuclear clouds know no borders

[szr]

You know, the nuclear clouds know no bordersYa, but at least the prevailing winds will generally take the fallout east instead of west (in the middle latitudes of the northern hemisphere). Still not good.

[Freibier]

Still not sure what the thread starter is aiming at , all scenarios - execpt the iran scenario maybe - are totaly unrealistic and would most definately escalate in a way that no sane person would want.

Oh and I think that germany would be the second easiest on the list, simply because of its rather small size

[szr]

I agree. Beyond wars with countries like Iran and in extremis situations with countries like the DPRK, major wars are too impractical, even for simple trade reasons, to be seriously considered as an option for anything other than preservation of the state. Or at least until the NMD interceptors start hitting their damn targets (:lol: p-))..

[b33f]

I agree. Beyond wars with countries like Iran and in extremis situations with countries like the DPRK, major wars are too impractical, even for simple trade reasons, to be seriously considered as an option for anything other than preservation of the state. Or at least until the NMD interceptors start hitting their damn targets (:lol: p-))..

or until 747-ABLs are commissioned (or F-35s with laser domes).

But i still can't see any reason for thinking about invading today's Germany or "just" starting a war with it.

[Doomsayer]

if the USA would attack Chine it would mean the end of the world no doubt about that ...

and there is no point in attacking China ... there is never enough oil there so why are you talking about it ? :|

[b33f]

if the USA would attack Chine it would mean the end of the world no doubt about that ...

and there is no point in attacking China ... there is never enough oil there so why are you talking about it ? :|

That's not the point, China's mainland is worthless but never the less, China is a threat.

[Sayeret]

You really want to use the Japanese and the British as examples of 'occupiers' of China?

1) How much of China did Britain hold, exactly, in your opinion?

Well Great Britain didn't hold Chinese land but they had control of the situation. For example the Chinese wanted the British to stop importing opium into their country but were to weak to stop the British. So the Brits continued importing opium into the country and pretty much could do as they pleased.

2) Do you know how many Japanese soldiers died in the 'occupation' of China, whilst only really controlling a handful of major cities?

Yeah I know a lot of Japanese soldiers died taking over what they did of China but they took over what was needed. The Soviet Union lost millions of people to the Germans but still beat them.

And the US Army doesn't have airborne divisions anymore, if I'm not mistaken (am I?). Last I heard, the airborne were converted to air assault - and that's not exactly the same thing in the classic sense.

The 82nd is an Airborne unit while 101st is a air cavalry unit.

[n.ignomo]

Did you mention the economy ? I mean, China is the world's factory, there make everything, your clothes, shoes, tvs, computers and mobile phones. Let's just threaten then to use the force, they will stop all exportations, and instead of a oil crisis, you got a worldwide industry crisis !

[szr]

Did you mention the economy ? I mean, China is the world's factory, there make everything, your clothes, shoes, tvs, computers and mobile phones. Let's just threaten then to use the force, they will stop all exportations, and instead of a oil crisis, you got a worldwide industry crisis !China is not the world's largest exporter because others can't manufacture on their own and therefore need China, they're the worlds largest exporter because others can't compete with their ridiculously low production and operating costs and China's artificially weakened currency. If China stopped putting-out it would put a lot of people to work in Europe, N. America, S. America, Australia, and the rest of Asia. Prices would go up until the factories were built in Bangladesh, Honduras, Slovenia, etc., then they'd come back down though they'd probably never reach the lowest prices China could produce at.

[GazB]

Ya, but at least the prevailing winds will generally take the fallout east instead of west (in the middle latitudes of the northern hemisphere). Still not good.

Which way did the radiation from Chernobyl go? I thought it went north west...

[szr]

Ya, but at least the prevailing winds will generally take the fallout east instead of west (in the middle latitudes of the northern hemisphere). Still not good.

Which way did the radiation from Chernobyl go? I thought it went north west...http://www.cmc.ec.gc.ca/~arqidor/ctbto/Chernobyl.gif
The distribution of Iodine-131 from the Chernobyl nuclear accident. The figure depicts the radioactivity field in Bq/kg at 850 mb. level on 00 UST, May 12, 1986, approximately 384 hours after the reactor explosion

Upper winds took the fallout generally east. That regional swirl over Europe, N. Africa and the M.E. is likely due in part to hadley cell circulation.

Edit: Another picture
http://library.thinkquest.org/20331/images/chernrad.jpg

[Lokos]

Sayeret,

I concede on the airborne point.

1) Your GB reference was one pointing to successful occupation - not successful coercion. I said that the GB never occupied China successfully. Saying that they didn't, but they managed to make China do what they wanted isn't a counter.

2) The point was that the Japanese *didn't* take over what was needed. They were still waging a full scale war against the Communist/Nationalist alliance even in 1945. That's one hell of a long war. An occupation implies that organized resistance is broken and that the country is nominally under the control of the victor. Can this be said to be the case if there is still a multi-million man organized army fighting the occupator?

Lokos

[Belrick]

Yep.
A country is its people and since the bulk of china's population was under foreign rule consider it occupied

[Thor]

Germany?
Why would we invade Germany? Holy smoke, they are our allies!
We would also have to deal with the European Union equal-> Nuke-war It's like to commit suicide on earth.
ust so everyone know it. This guy is a fake.

He used to call himself "Vacon" (check his previous posts). It's just the same 14 year old swedish kid.

[Sayeret]

Germany?
Why would we invade Germany? Holy smoke, they are our allies!
We would also have to deal with the European Union equal-> Nuke-war It's like to commit suicide on earth.
ust so everyone know it. This guy is a fake.

He used to call himself "Vacon" (check his previous posts). It's just the same 14 year old swedish kid.

Sounds like you.

[Sgt.Snatchgrabber]

I took a semester seminar with Eric Foner earlier this year and an option for a final paper was to discuss the possibility of an American involvement in Chechnya and what the possible outcome would be. Unfortunately I went the opposite route and wrote about the change in American foreign policy before and after the Spanish-American War, big mistake.

Anyways, fictitious wars are always interesting but difficult to debate. I mean it is obvious America would never go to war with Germany or Russia unless they did something extremely drastic. Also, a war with China seems fairly inconceivable considering younger more progressive and opened-minded communists are replacing the older, Maoists. On the other hand, war with Iran is certainly within the realms of possibility, especially now with their vehement refusal to cancel their nuclear program. But at this point in time I don’t see how the American military could manage three fronts- Iraq, Afghanistan, (and if things escalate) Iran. I personally don’t know too much about Iranian military strength but I do believe a coalition made up United Nation countries could together manage a sustained effort in that region.