Very very interesting article in US press!

[stephane from Paris]

Hi
For those who are able to read a long text and understand it, have a look on the following link! It's a 2 days ago article from the National Journal a political newspaper very close and very read by US congress members:
http://nationaljournal.com/njcover.htm
Regards
stephane

[Red]

Hi
For those who are able to read a long text and understand it, have a look on the following link! It's a 2 days ago article from the National Journal a political newspaper very close and very read by US congress members:
http://nationaljournal.com/njcover.htm
Regards
stephane
what are you wearing right now?

[pinkeye]

salut stéphane,
intéressant comme article, mais ça reste à voir si nos amis les américains vont pouvoir non-seulement accepter mais comprendre les lessons de cette nouvelle aventure au proche-orient...

[Seoulstriker]

Savez-vous coucher avec une paire de cuisse de grenoilles sans avoir l'air trop arrogant?

[Zach R.]

You better not be insulting me.

[Miles Teg]

The action of US in Irak is necessary "un mal nécessaire".
But I don't think they use the right method. I can read too often in international press about US soldier thinking they aren't trained to manage this kind of situation. It appears they are not correctly train for this kind of peacekeeping. But in think it can be corrected

Like somthing shocking me today : Currently US soldier let one assault rifle and pistol by family. In Ituri the french forces, before the UN intervention, don't let any "kitchen knife" to the civilian.

Something different in doctrin.

[Seoulstriker]

You better not be insulting me.

Voulez vous coucher avec ma femme??? :bash: :bash:

[pinkeye]

Savez-vous coucher avec une paire de cuisse de grenoilles sans avoir l'air trop arrogant?

en bon québécois, ferme ta yeule, espèce de poil.

[Seoulstriker]

Savez-vous coucher avec une paire de cuisse de grenoilles sans avoir l'air trop arrogant?

en bon québécois, ferme ta yeule, espèce de poil.

malheureusement je ne sais pas parler français.

[front]

Good article.

" The neocons are not experts on the Middle East. One of their prime intellectual influences is an abstruse political philosopher, Leo Strauss, a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany whose students at the University of Chicago included Paul Wolfowitz, now serving as Bush's deputy secretary of Defense and the administration's leading proponent of using Iraq as a laboratory for democratic nation building in the region. Straussians tend to believe in the ability of intellectual elites -- modern-day philosopher-kings -- to discern truths unavailable to lesser minds. "It's a European style of getting the peasants to do what 'we' say," said James Pinkerton, a critic of the Iraq intervention who worked in the Bush I White House. "

Great paragraph... just about sums in up I guess.

"It's a European style of getting the peasants to do what 'we' say,". Yup... just wrap it in the flag... none will dare oppose it.

cheers

front

[stephane from Paris]

...it seems seol won the price of the bad reader! Too difficult to read a dozens of lines in english (his mother language), he prefer using insult in so poor french language. By the way if his french isn't correct , me, i understood what he means! Hope one day he understand a text.
Regards
stephane
ps too Pinkeye: salut le cousin quebecquois!!

[WARPIG]

If I take the article at face value, I can see the conflict that the EU has with US actions in Iraq. I do however think the continued indifference toward the matter is much more disturbing. French apathy for the sake of saying "I told you so," is frankly, ridiculous. It is one thing to theorize and prove their predictions. But to continue to sit there and do nothing is truly arrogant. I really expected more from the French. With the experience in this matter that Chirac and the French have.. they not only have some insight to theorize risks but are also in the best position to make a difference too. Apethetic leaders are the true evil of the world. I pray my view of Chirac is only biased and that the French leadership are thinking about how to help those in need rather than simply taking satisfaction at the Iraqi struggle ahead.
Other than "I told you so," what else do the French have to contribute to the war, Stephane? Do you have some insight as to any helpful predictions that the French could lend?

[Red]

Tais-toi

[Zach R.]

Let me get this straight. Pinkeye is stephane's cousin living in Quebec?

[stephane from Paris]

First Warpig i'm glad that you had a read on the text and don't use insults like some here!
The goals of this text and of french politic isn't to say "we were right you should listen too us" but that this war isn't a good idea to safe our societies!!
I put nearly the same facts on another DG 8months ago and received the usual french bashing, but remember the officials goals of the war on Irak:
Find the weapons of mass destruction, ended the support from Irak to bin Laden, war to islamists terrorists!!
The WMD is still not find , the links between Irak and Bin Laden is stupid (the only terrorist group was in the kurds controlled zone before the war), and when you know muslims as we know them, it was quite EVIDENT that muslims will views americans like invaders!!!
I made an error in my first devellopment because i thought that the problem will appear in future years not now!
Bush gave tons of new soldiers to Bin Laden , and now this bad guy is for lot of arabs a sort of Robin of the Hood!!
This is very very dangerous for our future and the war against terrorists is just at the begining!
What Did France act??? During the 80's when 58frenchs paras where killed (like marines) in Lebanon, our services used murder to punish terrorists chiefs. We arrest hundreds of terrorists, we send informations to FBI about terrorists (some were in the planes a few months later), we said that Saudi and Pakistan (far from democracy but close friends to USA??!!!!) gave money or supports to terrorists.
You must fight againts terrorists with secret services methods not military!
If the goals of this war was to fight terrorism i'm pretty sure that it will gave him more power in the next 10 years!

Now you're on the place, it's impossible to leave it, let's pray that not so much guys died and that the troubles will ended!! But i'm affraid that shiat radikal's muslim will take the first place, and if it appens ..............
Regards
stephane
ps: here in france we see french origin Canadians like our cousins or brothers!!

[Red]

French kick ass! only in the matrix though.

[He219]

If I take the article at face value, I can see the conflict that the EU has with US actions in Iraq. I do however think the continued indifference toward the matter is much more disturbing. French apathy for the sake of saying "I told you so," is frankly, ridiculous. It is one thing to theorize and prove their predictions. But to continue to sit there and do nothing is truly arrogant. I really expected more from the French. With the experience in this matter that Chirac and the French have.. they not only have some insight to theorize risks but are also in the best position to make a difference too. Apethetic leaders are the true evil of the world. I pray my view of Chirac is only biased and that the French leadership are thinking about how to help those in need rather than simply taking satisfaction at the Iraqi struggle ahead.
Other than "I told you so," what else do the French have to contribute to the war, Stephane? Do you have some insight as to any helpful predictions that the French could lend?

I wholeheartedly concur with your asessment, WARPIG. The French are seeking validation for their subversion of Iraqi regieme change and are praying for a favorable liberal review.

Warpig's asessment is right on. The French chose Saddam over the Iraqi people and enforcement of UN resolutions. They would not dare stand up to the challenges for individual freedoms or face the hardships of a protracted reconstruction effort. No the French would dare not risk their own skin for the benefit of others and thus chose to continue empowerment of Saddam.

Interesting how Stephanie first came with the 'hello american friends' stuff, followed by:

You know nothing, you drinks that your medias says and never verify outside.
regards from gay land where girls are so pretty.
stephane

Say, how come you know the serial numbers on those Roland 2 or 3 missiles the Poles found recently?

The number on the package is: 07-01-KND-2003-03

Yeah, the USE BY DATE - against coalition aircraft patroling the no-fly zones. Remember the two Exocet AM39 that hit the USS Stark?

je suis venu, j'ai vu Vichy (http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/12-1589.asp)


http://www.shopmetrospy.com/graphics/Product_6_PrSpare1.jpg

[Seoulstriker]

...it seems seol won the price of the bad reader! Too difficult to read a dozens of lines in english (his mother language), he prefer using insult in so poor french language. By the way if his french isn't correct , me, i understood what he means! Hope one day he understand a text.
Regards
stephane
ps too Pinkeye: salut le cousin quebecquois!!

i'm just kidding around, man. :hug:

[Miles Teg]

Interesting how Stephanie first came with the 'hello american friends' stuff, followed by:


You know nothing, you drinks that your medias says and never verify outside.
regards from gay land where girls are so pretty.
stephane

Because the answers on the subjects were very hard and often offtopics stubborn.

[pinkeye]

he219,
hmmmm, how many other western governments supported saddam
during the '80s? there are many guilty parties, including france, britain, germany, italy, and the u.s. seems like botswana is about the only country that didn't support saddam in some way or another. ;)
don't throw stones 'cause you'll break your glass house...

[pinkeye]

...it seems seol won the price of the bad reader! Too difficult to read a dozens of lines in english (his mother language), he prefer using insult in so poor french language. By the way if his french isn't correct , me, i understood what he means! Hope one day he understand a text.
Regards
stephane
ps too Pinkeye: salut le cousin quebecquois!!

i'm just kidding around, man. :hug:

:hug:

[Miles Teg]

:hug:

Ouf

[Miles Teg]

Remember the two Exocet AM39 that hit the USS Stark?

And sinking the Sheffield, don't forget.

Do you want to count the victims of the selled US weapons?

[stephane from Paris]

Hi he219,
This message was to one guy the guys who called me stephane from gay paris!
I'm sure you'll don't like if i say for example : he217 stupid bast***!!
I never used insult like some of you did! So don't be surprise by the reply i did, OK?
Now you speack about democracy in Irak??!! well isn't rumsfeld who meeted twice Sadam in the 80's when he was one of the Bechtel(??) director?? I remember a nice photo of that meeting!
CIA confirmed that USA sold technologies for ballistic missiles!
before 91, Sadam was a good guy for all western countries!
Btw what about Saudi , Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt where the humans right aren't respected and where there isn't real democracy for the 2 first! Hoooooooo nothing to say they are USA allieds!!!
Do you really thinkings that Bush really care about Iraki's????

[duck]

I heard the renovation project at the Gare D'Austerlitz is going forward well. As an architecture buff I cannot wait to visit and see how the area looks nowadays.

[Flagg]

he219,
hmmmm, how many other western governments supported saddam
during the '80s? there are many guilty parties, including france, britain, germany, italy, and the u.s. seems like botswana is about the only country that didn't support saddam in some way or another.
don't throw stones 'cause you'll break your glass house...

Agreed he219.....to a certain extent...commerce is commerce....BUT

...look at the Iraqi ORBAT

LOADED with mostly Russian, then French weapon systems...lots of money made by France during the 1970's and 1980's....including the Osirak reactor which members of France's existing government helped lobby for the successful sale.

I'm a recent member...and I appologise of this has been covered.

[budanski]

gay[/b] Paris]Now you speack about democracy in Irak??!! well isn't rumsfeld who meeted twice Sadam in the 80's when he was one of the Bechtel(??) director?? I remember a nice photo of that meeting!
Ah yes, those photos...

http://www.noisedesignlab.com/buddy/chirachussein1.jpg
http://www.noisedesignlab.com/buddy/chirachussein2.jpg
http://www.bretagne-online.com/telegram/htdocs/archive/2000/20001005/IG/image/1747628/ar~ijvmm.jpg
http://www.france.diplomatie.fr/photos/diplo/diplo9910/photo19.jpg
http://www.irna.ir/occasion/france/gif/jaq.gif


gay[/b] Paris]
CIA confirmed that USA sold technologies for ballistic missiles!
before 91, Sadam was a good guy for all western countries!
Btw what about Saudi , Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt where the humans right aren't respected and where there isn't real democracy for the 2 first! Hoooooooo nothing to say they are USA allieds!!!
Do you really thinkings that Bush really care about Iraki's????

Care to provide actual proof that the US exported technology for Saddam's ballistic missles? Or is it just conspriracy theorist garbage. There was no direct material aid except in the form of limited intelligence. In fact, the support the US gave Saddam at the time was limited to commercial interests and the already mentioned small bits of sattelite intel.

[He219]

Hi he219,
This message was to one guy the guys who called me stephane from gay paris!
I'm sure you'll don't like if i say for example : he217 stupid bast***!!
I never used insult like some of you did! So don't be surprise by the reply i did, OK?
Now you speack about democracy in Irak??!! well isn't rumsfeld who meeted twice Sadam in the 80's when he was one of the Bechtel(??) director?? I remember a nice photo of that meeting!
CIA confirmed that USA sold technologies for ballistic missiles!
before 91, Sadam was a good guy for all western countries!
Btw what about Saudi , Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt where the humans right aren't respected and where there isn't real democracy for the 2 first! Hoooooooo nothing to say they are USA allieds!!!
Do you really thinkings that Bush really care about Iraki's????

Easy on the name-calling, stephanie. Rummy wasn't the only one having his picture taken with Saddam..

http://www.lexnotes.com/misc/jacques_iraq1.jpg

http://a1636.g.akamai.net/7/1636/797/b81725404756e3/graphics.boston.com/news/packages/iraq/images/ideas_0302.jpg

Back in 1975, Saddam Hussein (center) was accompanied by Jacques Chirac (wearing glasses), then France's prime minister, on a tour of a French nuclear power station.
(AFP Photo)

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021903/content/truth_detector.Par.0001.ImageFile.jpg
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021903/content/truth_detector.Par.0002.ImageFile.jpg

Chirac called his "close, personal relationship" with Saddam dates back to late 1974, when Chirac traveled to Baghdad and met the #2 man in Iraq: Vice President Hussein. During that visit, their main negotiation issue was Iraq's purchasing of nuclear reactors. In September 1975, Chirac personally took Saddam on a tour of a French nuclear plant. He expressed his desire to help Iraq with its nuclear program, and "the Iraqis bought a 70-megawatt reactor. Baghdad also purchased a one-megawatt "research reactor," and France agreed to train 600 Iraqi nuclear technicians and scientists. France also agreed to sell $1.5 billion worth of weapons to Iraq - for which they got a lucrative oil contract. In 1987, the Manchester Guardian Weekly quoted Chirac as saying that he was "truly fascinated" by Hussein.

http://www.lexnotes.com/misc/jacques_iraq.htm


We all know the truth about Saddam:

http://www.kdp.pp.se/halabjah_visnews.jpg

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/aa7c0220.jpg

The USS Stark shortly after being hit by two Exocet missiles.

http://www.sohoblues.com/GulfWarWeb/images/previews/preview9.jpg

http://www.sohoblues.com/GulfWarWeb/images/previews/preview1.jpg

http://www.parentalguide.com/images/Israel/8.jpg

An Iraqi scud missile attack on houses in the
outskirts of Tel Aviv.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/meast/03/26/sprj.irq.mural/vert.911.mural.jpg

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=459755

The top human rights official for the CPA says Saddam Hussein killed at least 300,000 opponents and buried them in 263 mass graves located around the country.


Yet the French favor quiescence, lest risk their own skin, ....


The goals of this text and of french politic isn't to say "we were right you should listen too us" but that this war isn't a good idea to safe our societies!!

... and thus bacame a benign accessor through inaction.

:|

[WARPIG]

There are many more reasons for our war in Iraq. WMD is only one reason. Chirac says he knows the Islamic people and how to handle them and believes it is a losing battle. Not only do the French decide to chose indifference and not lend that "expert" knowledge. They don't really understand that we don't care that it's an uphill battle. We are going to try and give these people democracy. French see nothing to gain by the report that Stephane posted (8% of the oil exported.) So why would they bother helping the Americans try and bring freedom to people that the French don't really care for? Iraqi freedom is not the biggest reason that we went to war. Using Iraq for a template to transform the middle east into a western friendly continent is also a bit of a pipe dream. To play the devil's advocate: even if every reason to go to War was wrong, if we completely missed the mark, what does that have to do with rebuilding that country? Where are the French now? The US offered you a stake in the rebuildining of a country, where are the French. Hiding behind their apathy while sharpshooting the people who risk themselves for the chance to spread freedom.

[pinkeye]

since you asked for the info, here a few links:

http://www.sundayherald.com/27572
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep2002/nf20020920_3025.htm#LETTER
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/globalissue/usforeignpolicy/iraq1980scontent.html

we know chirac has met saddam and friends, but you seem unable to accept the fact that the u.s. did in fact support iraq during the 1980s, as did mnay other western governments. and rumsfeld did shake the hand of saddam, here's a link with a pic:

http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html

[budanski]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/breen/archive/20031026_breen.gif

[pinkeye]

There are many more reasons for our war in Iraq. WMD is only one reason. Chirac says he knows the Islamic people and how to handle them and believes it is a losing battle. Not only do the French decide to chose indifference and not lend that "expert" knowledge. They don't really understand that we don't care that it's an uphill battle. We are going to try and give these people democracy. French see nothing to gain by the report that Stephane posted (8% of the oil exported.) So why would they bother helping the Americans try and bring freedom to people that the French don't really care for? Iraqi freedom is not the biggest reason that we went to war. Using Iraq for a template to transform the middle east into a western friendly continent is also a bit of a pipe dream. To play the devil's advocate: even if every reason to go to War was wrong, if we completely missed the mark, what does that have to do with rebuilding that country? Where are the French now? The US offered you a stake in the rebuildining of a country, where are the French. Hiding behind their apathy while sharpshooting the people who risk themselves for the chance to spread freedom.

yet you do not mention the fact that france, along with germany, deployed military resources in afghanistan?

[WARPIG]

Well, it wasn't part of the conversation. However, EU involvement there is in reaction to 9-11. The threat was pretty obvious and a regime change was not an issue. Afghanistan came at the heals of 3000 people being murdured. I may think France and Germany are arrogant and apathetic but not stupid, nor cowards. Germany has recently taken a moral high ground regardless of it's past brushes with genocide. Supporting Operation Enduring Freedom was a smart move. Don't forget regardless of our disagreement about Iraq, we are still allies.

[He219]

Thus the Political Game!

In Afghanistan they are protecting a fledgeling government from Taliban resurgence, while efforts in Iraq are shunned and criticized.


:|

[budanski]

To Hell With Sympathy
The goodwill America earned on 9/11 was illusory. Get over it
(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031117-538977,00.html)

[pinkeye]

Well, it wasn't part of the conversation. However, EU involvement there is in reaction to 9-11. The threat was pretty obvious and a regime change was not an issue. Afghanistan came at the heals of 3000 people being murdured. I may think France and Germany are arrogant and apathetic but not stupid, nor cowards. Germany has recently taken a moral high ground regardless of it's past brushes with genocide. Supporting Operation Enduring Freedom was a smart move. Don't forget regardless of our disagreement about Iraq, we are still allies.

according to your logic, all countries that refused to participate during the initial phase of the iraq "war" can be deemed arrogant and apathetic? despite the fact that many actively supported the u.s. in its efforts to "remove" the taliban regime and al qaeda from afghanistan?

[Adri]

je m'appell Adri, je parlè francais et j'ai un chien.

aint I good? :lol:


but, to budanski... why suport a war they are against ????????

and for you guys using 9/11 to justify the iraqi war..... does iraq have any links with osama ? (no)
and by the way, where are those WMDs ? (nowere)

do you think they will suport you in a war they where agains, even without the fake WMN's ?

to remove saddam was good, and I do not have the same point of view as france and germany, but to pretend that iraq had WMDs was just idiotic......

[pinkeye]

je m'appell Adri, je parlè francais et j'ai un chien.

aint I good? :lol:


but, to budanski... why suport a war they are against ????????

and for you guys using 9/11 to justify the iraqi war..... does iraq have any links with osama ? (no)
and by the way, where are those WMDs ? (nowere)

do you think they will suport you in a war they where agains, even without the fake WMN's ?

to remove saddam was good, and I do not have the same point of view as france and germany, but to pretend that iraq had WMDs was just idiotic......

the bush family has links with the bid ladens, so maybe we need to declare war on george and his family? :lol:
here is a great link for more information:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/index.html

[pinkeye]

To Hell With Sympathy
The goodwill America earned on 9/11 was illusory. Get over it
(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031117-538977,00.html)

budanski, we all knew the u.s. never had any sympathy to begin with... ;)

[Vance]

He's had them before, he's used them before, and he didn't allow UN inspectors into his country for 8 years. Even if he doesn't have WMD's, that's a bad way to say you don't....

[Flagg]

http://www.lexnotes.com/misc/jacques_iraq1.jpg

Caption:

French Nuke Scientist Second From Right:

"Oui Oui Monsieur Hussain!, ve understand your desire to procure nucléaire arme, but unfortunately, nucléaire arme are verrrrrrrrrrrrry, verrrrrrrrrrry expensive!"

Saddam:

"So how much are you overpriced cheese eating arms dealers gonna charge me to blow up...whoops! I mean, defend Iraq?"

French Nuke Scientist Second From Right:

"mmmmMMMMMMMMmm..for vu, zince vu are France's verrrrrrry special friend, Eleventeen Zillion Francs"


Saddam:

"Sold!"

Jacques Chirac(Future French President) On the Right:

(DROOLING) "Oui Oui Monsieur Hussain!, vill zat be cash, Visa, or Mastercard....unfortunately, we do not accept Discover credite!"

[He219]

How about:

The Playa'z Club!
http://bfcgroup.com/helluvatough/telly.jpg
:D

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20031111/capt.sge.dov61.111103170649.photo00.default-384x229.jpg

An Iraqi policeman cleans one of the cars of Uday Hussein, the eldest son of former Iraqi president, after it was found in Baghdad.(AFP/Patrick Baz)

[Miles Teg]

Surely a private joke.
I can't understand.

I'm moody, :( I can't laugh of it.

[duck]

Caption:

Jewish-American Nuke Scientist Second From Right:

"Yes Monsieur Begin!, we understand your desire to procure kosher nuclear waepons, but unfortunately, they are verrrrrrrrrrrrry, verrrrrrrrrrry expensive!"

Begin:

"So how much are you overpriced non-kosher steak eating arms dealers gonna charge me to blow up...whoops! I mean, defend Israel?"

American Nuke Scientist Second From Right:

"mmmmMMMMMMMMmm..for vu, zince vu are Americas verrrrrrry special friend, jewish lobby groups full support for the sitting president"


Begin:

"Sold!"

Rummy(Future US Defence Secretary On the Right:

(DROOLING) "Yeah Yeag Monsieur Begin!, vill zat be through Mossad, military channels, or developing aid....unfortunately, we do not accept credits, for the lobby groups would deem that inacceptable!"

[Flagg]

Actually...I think Israel got some of it's fissionable material for free.....I've read that a bunch went "missing" in PA back in the 1960s or 1970s that many suspect went to Israel.

Looks like Israel gotta a great deal(free)...and Saddam got the shaft....

[fantassin]

Actually, on this one, and unlike Iraq, France can take "credit" for WMD dissemination...the nukes come from the Dimona reactor, provided by France after intense lobbying by then minister Shimon Peres with the active support of the then (Jewish) French Prime Minister Pierre Mendès-France. BTW, those facts are acknowledged by both sides before a member of the "Defenders of Israel brigade" torches me down...

[He219]

Ironically it was the French, again...

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/uploads/zionist_dimona.jpg
Dimona nuclear reactor

See here: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/


;)

[Flagg]

ohhhhh, C#@P!

I so knew about Dimona too!.....yet I once again failed to come up with a witty retort, like:

"So I guess Dimona is just an innocent Frog Leg Factory? Huh?"

[stephane from Paris]

It's a fact that France helped Israel to become a nuclear power (including for military use) in the 70's beginnings! It's a fact too that USA sold missiles materials and biologicals technologies in the 80's! This fact was confirmed by 2 ex CIA directors and William Cohen!! Btw Madeleine Albright recently confirmed that CIA haven't any proof about links between Irak and Bin Laden!

The WMD existed because western countries sold them to sadam in the 80's, the problem is that they were destroyed after 91! Maybee one day you'll find one or two but where are the weapons that Bush said (for sure) could be used in 45minutes??? Or it's a pure lie or CIA is full of muppets (i don't thinks so).
Bush supporters have a short memory, when Rumsfeld's gang presented the war they insisted on WMD , terrorists links, and sooner danger for USA safety! That 's the reasons that decided people to supports the war!
Given democracy is the only arguments that rest after lies!!!
Btw do you want to speak about Tibet/China? Pakistan? Saudi?Lybia?Syria?Iran?Liberia (no send of troops because there isn't oil, but people died and need help of US!!!)?Birmania....??? all of these countries want democracy too, is Bush ready to help them if democracy is the real project???
Sorry Democracy isn't the real project of this war it's just a collateral damage! I really hope that Iraki's will have better life, but i'm sure that USA gave weapons to integrists terrorists, and we'll pay it in the future!
let me tell you an history:
In France Bernard Henry Levy a french jewish philosoph who supported the war went to Pakistan on the step of Richard Pearl!!
He wrote a book on Pearl (the journalist murdered by islamists because he was american and jewish) and on his investigations.
A few weeks ago he was in a new books TV show and what did he said:
"well i supported the war in Iraq but i discovered that Pakistan is the real menace for Western democracy and israel!! The country is on the hands of military but the whole society is very very hateful of americans and jewish! they are 100 millions with nuclear power , they supported Talibans (including officials) and surrely protect Bin Laden!! If military fall...."

Notice that Israel just put in service submarines armed with nuclear missile (certainly to put a menace over Pakistan in the future) and you'll understand a little more if the world will be safety.

[Flagg]

It's a fact that France helped Israel to become a nuclear power (including for military use) in the 70's beginnings! It's a fact too that USA sold missiles materials and biologicals technologies in the 80's! This fact was confirmed by 2 ex CIA directors and William Cohen!! Btw Madeleine Albright recently confirmed that CIA haven't any proof about links between Irak and Bin Laden!

The WMD existed because western countries sold them to sadam in the 80's, the problem is that they were destroyed after 91! Maybee one day you'll find one or two but where are the weapons that Bush said (for sure) could be used in 45minutes??? Or it's a pure lie or CIA is full of muppets (i don't thinks so).
Bush supporters have a short memory, when Rumsfeld's gang presented the war they insisted on WMD , terrorists links, and sooner danger for USA safety! That 's the reasons that decided people to supports the war!
Given democracy is the only arguments that rest after lies!!!
Btw do you want to speak about Tibet/China? Pakistan? Saudi?Lybia?Syria?Iran?Liberia (no send of troops because there isn't oil, but people died and need help of US!!!)?Birmania....??? all of these countries want democracy too, is Bush ready to help them if democracy is the real project???
Sorry Democracy isn't the real project of this war it's just a collateral damage! I really hope that Iraki's will have better life, but i'm sure that USA gave weapons to integrists terrorists, and we'll pay it in the future!
let me tell you an history:
In France Bernard Henry Levy a french jewish philosoph who supported the war went to Pakistan on the step of Richard Pearl!!
He wrote a book on Pearl (the journalist murdered by islamists because he was american and jewish) and on his investigations.
A few weeks ago he was in a new books TV show and what did he said:
"well i supported the war in Iraq but i discovered that Pakistan is the real menace for Western democracy and israel!! The country is on the hands of military but the whole society is very very hateful of americans and jewish! they are 100 millions with nuclear power , they supported Talibans (including officials) and surrely protect Bin Laden!! If military fall...."

Notice that Israel just put in service submarines armed with nuclear missile (certainly to put a menace over Pakistan in the future) and you'll understand a little more if the world will be safety.



Hello Stephane from Paris...you must be famished after writing that warped post, here have some fruitcake(Happy Holidays!):

http://www.pocketchef.com/fruitcake.jpg

[WARPIG]

Once again, Pinkeye is quick to disagree simply because it is an American view. I don't care if people couldn't buy into going to war with Iraq. When there is something to be done right now and no one wants to do anything simply because the US is involved, well, that is apathetic. Arrogance to just be satisfied to gloat over Iraqi struggle. The indifference to just say "I told you so" while sitting on their hands. France, Germany, or any other country that has the apility to do something and does not, have no grounds to criticise.

[fantassin]

The latest polls have shown that only 28% of the German population trusts the USA now; there is no way France and Germany are going to pay for the mess they have done their utmost to stop.

Did France ask the US to send troops to Algeria to clean up the mess there in the 50s and 60s? no, France had to buy every single item of military equipment it needed in its struggle to supress the Algerian terrorists who were putting bombs in stadiums, bars and cinemas, just like the Irakis are doing now.

When France and the UK went to attack Egypt with the collaboration of Israel in 1956 to stop the flow of Egyptian supplied weapons into Algeria, in spite of a blatant military victory on the ground, it was forced by US (and russian) military threat to back off and be replaced by UN troops.

Funny how history has a way of repeating itself...

BTW, the French Minister of Defence has said yesterday France does not want a defeat of the US in Irak because it would be a defeat of the Western world.
What the minister did not say is that Irak is on Europe's doorsteps, while the USA are safely tucked 8000 kilometers away from another fine mess they've just created.

[WARPIG]

Thank you.. proof of the EU arrogance.

there is no way France and Germany are going to pay for the mess they have done their utmost to stop arrogance: a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims
What the minister did not say is that Irak is on Europe's doorsteps, while the USA are safely tucked 8000 kilometers away from another fine mess they've just created.
apathy: 1 : lack of feeling or emotion 2 : lack of interest or concern : indifference
Definitions from the Webster's dictionary
"We aren't going to help because you started it. It doesn't matter that the outcome effects us too. "
Translation by WARPIG

[Miles Teg]

I'm to see how much is the literal misunderstand here.
Everyone understand what he wants of each sentence.

[pinkeye]

Once again, Pinkeye is quick to disagree simply because it is an American view. I don't care if people couldn't buy into going to war with Iraq. When there is something to be done right now and no one wants to do anything simply because the US is involved, well, that is apathetic. Arrogance to just be satisfied to gloat over Iraqi struggle. The indifference to just say "I told you so" while sitting on their hands. France, Germany, or any other country that has the apility to do something and does not, have no grounds to criticise.

rofl , whatever you say warpig. from now on i'll limit my discussions with people who actually know a thing or two about international relations...

[WARPIG]

Well, it is obvious you have run out of arguement and resorted to insult. That is ok too. I happen to have a pretty good perspective of international relations. But no, I don't really know anything. I openly admit my bias from a soldier's point of view. But, I am far from the ignorance that you display. What is troubling is that I actually respect your view point. You simply don't have the character to voice it in any palatable way.
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.
~Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)
I have travelled some and have had exposure to countless people of many cultures. I still don't claim to know anything about international relations. For you to say that you do is not just arrogant but laughable.
It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance.
~Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)
I enjoy discussing or different viewpoints.. even enjoy insulting each other.. please don't claim that your not biased or act as if you know it all.. it would truly bore me to death.

[fantassin]

Just take responsability for your own actions and stop crying. But don't be surprised not to be greeted with open arms by people you've just liberated with 800 TLAMs and a few other 1000s PGMs.

EU has a different view because we've have our colonial spate before; the UK had half the third world and France the rest or almost. Then, we got kicked by people who thought the British way or the French way was not the best.

We learnt; 94000 KIA in Indochina and 36000 KIA in Algeria as far as France is concerned.

You think you are better and oh so different; time to learn, in your own way; and then, it'll be the usual isolationist period when the USA will say that everybody hates them and the world is so awful, like in the 20s...

History is forever repeating itself...

Bismark said "only fool learn from their own mistakes; I learn from the other's mistakes"

Read a bit of history, without a bible in your right hand, a V8 SUV in the back yard and an M16 in the other hand; the world will suddenly look so different.

BTW, the Americans, as individuals, are very popular and welcome in EU; only your recent politics aren't.

[rokus2595]

Thank you.. proof of the EU arrogance.

there is no way France and Germany are going to pay for the mess they have done their utmost to stop arrogance: a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims

??? Are you for real??? yes, this is a big fat American mess you have in iraq, and yes, both France and Germany tried their best to stop it; yet if they now won't help America get out of the mess it itself created then it is a show of arrogance?? I'll tell you what arrogance is: telling the WORLD you know better than them, that you are going to invade a soverign country following really weak intelligence!
:roll:

[Adri]

Thank you.. proof of the EU arrogance.

there is no way France and Germany are going to pay for the mess they have done their utmost to stop arrogance: a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims
What the minister did not say is that Irak is on Europe's doorsteps, while the USA are safely tucked 8000 kilometers away from another fine mess they've just created.
apathy: 1 : lack of feeling or emotion 2 : lack of interest or concern : indifference
Definitions from the Webster's dictionary
"We aren't going to help because you started it. It doesn't matter that the outcome effects us too. "
Translation by WARPIG

and a guy with some lack of iq....... :bash:

[budanski]

Yes, the mess that caused this all. If only France and its axis of weasels were to go along with the plan and force Saddam to abide to the resolutions, not give him the impression that the U.S. won't try anything, we wouldnt have had gone in with force, sparing the casualities...

[rokus2595]

If only France and its axis of weasels were to go along with the plan and force Saddam to abide to the resolutions, not give him the impression that the U.S. won't try anything, we wouldnt have had gone in with force, sparing the casualities...

Wrong. Saddam was complying with the resolutions....before the war, Bush sold the idea of invading iraq on the false pretense of disarmament. The UN inspections were working, so what was the hurry????? now we know that
there were no WMD in iraq

So why the war? to get rid of sadam? ok, so we can now invade other countries because we know they have a ****ty leadership...can any other country do that or just the US? see the problem with that line of thought???

[Miles Teg]

If only France and its axis of weasels were to go along with the plan and force Saddam to abide to the resolutions, not give him the impression that the U.S. won't try anything, we wouldnt have had gone in with force, sparing the casualities...

Better and better. And now, if the US fail in Irak this will be our fault? :roll:

[budanski]

Wrong. Saddam was complying with the resolutions....before the war, Bush sold the idea of invading iraq on the false pretense of disarmament.
Lets see, the inspectors were kicked out and were allowed to come back due to what? Was it because the hundreds of thousands of US troops outside his border to change his mind. So no, Saddam was not complying till the buildup.


The UN inspections were working, so what was the hurry????? now we know that
there were no WMD in iraq
Sadamm used chemical weapons on his own people. Since chemical weapons are WMD, would the thousands of corpses from these attacks be proof enough?


So why the war? to get rid of sadam? ok, so we can now invade other countries because we know they have a ****ty leadership...can any other country do that or just the US? see the problem with that line of thought???
Saddams failure to abide to conditions put on him because of him on presumptions that go along with the ceasefire. You may also note his support of international terrorism with groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, etc... the list goes on and I find myself repeating this subject matter over and over which brings us back to why the war? Hes a prime candidate on our war on terrorism.

[stephane from Paris]

Hi benny (;o))
Read again what i said: there were WMD but not after there were destroy!
2400 americans are looking for them since end of the war and still nothing!
sadam's supported hamas and other group like 90% of arabs people do because they thinks that Israel and his brother USA kills the palestininians, not more not less! The problem is that current war between these 2 peoples for the same land!
Your window on the World is open just since 11/09, i'm affraid you'll have great and bad surprises in the following years.

[budanski]

gay[/b] Paris]Hi benny (;o))
Read again what i said: there were WMD but not after there were destroy!
2400 americans are looking for them since end of the war and still nothing!
sadam's supported hamas and other group like 90% of arabs people do because they thinks that Israel and his brother USA kills the palestininians, not more not less! The problem is that current war between these 2 peoples for the same land!
Your window on the World is open just since 11/09, i'm affraid you'll have great and bad surprises in the following years.

Just before Iraq kicked out U.N. weapons inspectors in 1998, Saddam admitted he had:

• At least 3.9 tons of deadly VX nerve gas, along with 805 tons of precursor ingredients for the production of more VX.

• 4,000 tons of ingredients to produce other types of poison gas.

• 8,500 liters of anthrax.

• 500 bombs fitted with parachutes for the purpose of delivering poison gas or germ payloads.

• 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas.

• 107,500 casings for chemical weapons. • 157 aerial bombs filled with germ agents.

• 25 missile warheads containing germ agents, including anthrax, aflatoxin, and botulinum.

Again, the above arsenal is NOT what U.S. or European intelligence said it suspected Baghdad had. These are the WMD's that Saddam himself admitted he had.

It's also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the WMDs Saddam admitted he had went completely undetected by U.N. weapons inspectors who combed Iraq for 12 years.

So, can you tell us all, stephane from gay Paris, where all this went?

[He219]

Hi benny (;o))
Read again what i said: there were WMD but not after there were destroy!
2400 americans are looking for them since end of the war and still nothing!
sadam's supported hamas and other group like 90% of arabs people do because they thinks that Israel and his brother USA kills the palestininians, not more not less! The problem is that current war between these 2 peoples for the same land!
Your window on the World is open just since 11/09, i'm affraid you'll have great and bad surprises in the following years.


Is that why you support Saddam, because of your antipathy towards Israel?
Oh, and you can assert that Iraq did indeed destroy all its WMD, despite the fact that UNSCOM was unable to do so - and was kicked out!

:roll:

Have some more Fruitcake that Flagg offered you....

http://www.pocketchef.com/fruitcake.jpg

:lol:

[He219]

Just take responsability for your own actions and stop crying. But don't be surprised not to be greeted with open arms by people you've just liberated with 800 TLAMs and a few other 1000s PGMs.

EU has a different view because we've have our colonial spate before; the UK had half the third world and France the rest or almost. Then, we got kicked by people who thought the British way or the French way was not the best.

We learnt; 94000 KIA in Indochina and 36000 KIA in Algeria as far as France is concerned.

Whatever makes you believe that we are in Iraq for colonization? :roll:

It's about SECURITY from a TYRANT that killed his own people along with invading Kuwait with his arsenal and ultimately about NOT COMPLYING with the terms of GW1 SURRENDER. Smartypants!
:roll:


You think you are better and oh so different; time to learn, in your own way; and then, it'll be the usual isolationist period when the USA will say that everybody hates them and the world is so awful, like in the 20s...

History is forever repeating itself...

Bismark said "only fool learn from their own mistakes; I learn from the other's mistakes"

Read a bit of history, without a bible in your right hand, a V8 SUV in the back yard and an M16 in the other hand; the world will suddenly look so different.

BTW, the Americans, as individuals, are very popular and welcome in EU; only your recent politics aren't.
You are obviously the one who thinks he is better, through your own words. If you can not learn about stopping a tyrant before he invades your own country, then you are the fool.

[He219]

The latest polls have shown that only 28% of the German population trusts the USA now; there is no way France and Germany are going to pay for the mess they have done their utmost to stop.
Somehow the US ends up having to pay for all the messes the Germans and French started, with American lives and resources.

Did France ask the US to send troops to Algeria to clean up the mess there in the 50s and 60s? no, France had to buy every single item of military equipment it needed in its struggle to supress the Algerian terrorists who were putting bombs in stadiums, bars and cinemas, just like the Irakis are doing now.
That was your Colony that rebelled.


When France and the UK went to attack Egypt with the collaboration of Israel in 1956 to stop the flow of Egyptian supplied weapons into Algeria, in spite of a blatant military victory on the ground, it was forced by US (and russian) military threat to back off and be replaced by UN troops.
France's last gasp at Imperialism. Control of the Suez.


Funny how history has a way of repeating itself...

BTW, the French Minister of Defence has said yesterday France does not want a defeat of the US in Irak because it would be a defeat of the Western world.
What the minister did not say is that Irak is on Europe's doorsteps, while the USA are safely tucked 8000 kilometers away from another fine mess they've just created.
The US is there precisely because 8000 kilometers means noting in Global Terrorism. Your DEFEATIST attitute will not keep you safe. French History indeed has a way of repeating itself (stupidity). Just look at 1871, WWI and WWII. You stop the tyrants(Saddam) and terrorists(Taliban) at their own doorstep, before they subjugate their peoples(Afghanistan&Iraq) and others (Kuwait).

http://www.pocketchef.com/fruitcake.jpg
Would you like some of Flagg's Fruitcake too?

[Trigger]

*puts on oven mitts*
Holy ****! we're running out of fruitcake! :D

[JiJoMacLE45]

As long as Ducimus and Spier are around we'll never run out of fruitcakes.

[Trigger]

WORD

[Seoulstriker]

WORD

True dat.

[EvanL]

WORD

True dat.

Son

[rokus2595]

Wrong. Saddam was complying with the resolutions....before the war, Bush sold the idea of invading iraq on the false pretense of disarmament.
Lets see, the inspectors were kicked out and were allowed to come back due to what? Was it because the hundreds of thousands of US troops outside his border to change his mind. So no, Saddam was not complying till the buildup. No, they were kicked out because the Iraqi govenment complained that there were CIA agents in the inspeccion teams




The UN inspections were working, so what was the hurry????? now we know that
there were no WMD in iraq
Sadamm used chemical weapons on his own people. Since chemical weapons are WMD, would the thousands of corpses from these attacks be proof enough? So we attack Hussein based on him using chemical weapons some 15 years ago??? By 2000, Iraq was one of the most weakened military countries in the middle east. We attacked them because it was going to be an easy victory. Oh, and oil and plus it would be nice for us to stomp our foot right at the heart of that trouble region called middle east.



So why the war? to get rid of sadam? ok, so we can now invade other countries because we know they have a ****ty leadership...can any other country do that or just the US? see the problem with that line of thought???

Saddams failure to abide to conditions put on him because of him on presumptions that go along with the ceasefire. You may also note his support of international terrorism with groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, etc... the list goes on and I find myself repeating this subject matter over and over which brings us back to why the war? Hes a prime candidate on our war on terrorism.

So we attacked the one that provides financial aid and maybe even military aid to the terrorists (Hamas, Hezbollah) but not the terrorists themselves? why didn't we go after Hezbollah instead? Well, Iraq used WMD on his own people....well, the americans were friends with him then(!)....

[stephane from Paris]

sorry Dudanski the question is: IS IRAK GOT WMD in 2002/2003!
CIA admit they don't know but Rumsfeld said yes (he had better source for sure)! Inspectors spent tons of time and don't found them! Rumsfeld said they are bad we will find them ourself!!! .....And still nothing!
Maybee he has to import himself those WMD!
Btw you thinks that Bush is freedom fighter, so answer my question on what he do nothing for free Liberia????
There were thousands of people who waited his help a few months ago but he did nothing! Marines were just in front of Monrovia and nothing!
Why if Bush is just for justice? Because it was their intern affairs? Because they were blacks? Because they don't have oil?
Interresting to know since the level of risk was not very high!
Don't say do it yourself, Liberia and Nigeria are under the US umbrela and they don't accept that french or british goes in this area!
I see that you don't likes gay, and french, and certainly latinos, blacks....

For He 219!
Where i said i supported Sadam???? Where??? I just said that this war will give more problems to western countries and wasn't necessaries to our interrest and the World peace!
And where i gave antiphathy towards Israel???????????????????????
I just says a fact: 90% of the arabs and muslims people thinks that i said!!!!!!!!!!
In Israel the highest military chief said the same thing last week!!! Do you consider that it is because he hate is homeland?????????????
Tomorow if i have the time i'll put a new topic on Israel/palestians/terrorists , you see that this situation is far more complex that just : the goods against the Bad!!
btw i support Israel (i liked Rabin) but without the rise of 2 countries side by side , we never get the peace!! And i thinks Sharon used the same bad way that Bush , he deserved his country!

[fantassin]

George Walker Bush has just stated he wanted to give more control to the Irakis...funny that, that's what France has advocated for the past six months...but it's allright, nobody here is going to say "I told you so" because we are all in the same boat; the main difference is that we haven't got the Atlantic ocean to shelter behind.

I use to think the price of gas was really cheap in the US compared to Europe; but at 382 US, 52 Brit, 2 spaniards, 19 Italians and a Pole killed, it definitely puts the price of the gallon up.

Hell of a price to pay to drive a Hummer H2 down to Florida on highway 95. Try more 4 cylinders cars and less KIAs; it the long run, it makes for a healthier society.

[The Walrus]

The US didn't seem to care about Saddams ruthlessness when he used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war, or during the infamous gassing of the Kurds whe the US downplayed the whole thing and still continued to support Saddam, in fact, the only thing which made the US concerned about Saddams ruthlesness was when he had his eyes turned on the richest oil region in the middle-east :|

[Vance]

The US didn't seem to care about Saddams ruthlessness when he used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war, or during the infamous gassing of the Kurds whe the US downplayed the whole thing and still continued to support Saddam, in fact, the only thing which made the US concerned about Saddams ruthlesness was when he had his eyes turned on the richest oil region in the middle-east :|
I'm sorry that we had Presidents that didn't do anything about it, and I'm glad we have one now that did....

About your last statement: No, he didn't just have his eyes on, he INVADED. And only then did the US say ''Okay, wtf?'' You can't just invade a peaceful country like Kuwait. And Iran was our deep enemy back then. You guys are acting like we sent troops in to help Saddam or something :roll:

[pinkeye]

The US didn't seem to care about Saddams ruthlessness when he used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war, or during the infamous gassing of the Kurds whe the US downplayed the whole thing and still continued to support Saddam, in fact, the only thing which made the US concerned about Saddams ruthlesness was when he had his eyes turned on the richest oil region in the middle-east :|
I'm sorry that we had Presidents that didn't do anything about it, and I'm glad we have one now that did....

About your last statement: No, he didn't just have his eyes on, he INVADED. And only then did the US say ''Okay, wtf?'' You can't just invade a peaceful country like Kuwait. And Iran was our deep enemy back then. You guys are acting like we sent troops in to help Saddam or something :roll:

true, yet that didn't stop the reagan administration from selling weapons and materiel to iran in the mid 1980s.

[Miles Teg]

true, yet that didn't stop the reagan administration from selling weapons and materiel to iran in the mid 1980s.

Like some tomcats, no?

[Flagg]

Like some tomcats, no?

Yeah mate......under the Shah US companies made a mint selling top-flight kit....and if the Shah stayed in power he would have bought a heap of F16s and such as well......

I also think the Shah's money kept afloat Grumman(the maker of the F14) as well as paid for R&D on the Challenger...but I could be wrong...

[Flagg]

*puts on oven mitts*
Holy ****! we're running out of fruitcake!


As long as Ducimus and Spier are around we'll never run out of fruitcakes.

I baked PLENTY of fruitcakes........Christmas is right around the corner ;)

[He219]

Actually pinkeye, it was a bit more complicated than that. The Israelis brokered the sale of spare parts (hawk missile system) for US ordinance purchased by Iran during the Shah's era, like those early-model F-14's Miles Teg mentioned.

The whole Iran-Contra thing was a disaster, as you well know. Spare parts for the fate of US hostages in Lebanon and money for Nicaraguan Contra-Revolutionaries. Totally covert stuff...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra

[pinkeye]

Actually pinkeye, it was a bit more complicated than that. The Israelis brokered the sale of spare parts (hawk missile system) for US ordinance purchased by Iran during the Shah's era, like those early-model F-14's Miles Teg mentioned.

The whole Iran-Contra thing was a disaster, as you well know. Spare parts for the fate of US hostages.

i know all about the details of the iran-contra scandal (well, at least the details that are in the public domain), but for the sake of this thread, i opted for brevity.
and it was more than spare parts for the fate of u.s. hostages, or at least that is what is reported by the head of mossad at the time. the overall strategy was apparently designed to undermine both iraq and iran, for neither the u.s. nor israel wanted to iraq to crush iran. that way, both iraq and iran would be weakened, regardless of the outcome. as i said, this view was reported by the former head of the mossad during the conflict in a book about the israeli intelligence service. unfortunately, the title of the book escapes me at this time.

[Marxist203]

Savez-vous coucher avec une paire de cuisse de grenoilles sans avoir l'air trop arrogant?

Seoulstriker, You are a dork. I hate you...you are a total knob. You are just about one of the most arrogant and moralistic ****s Ive dealt with, this is me flaming you, but it is for your own good. Quit it with your whole religious superiority act because you only annoy people.

Ive been reading your post's for months now, cut it out!

[Miles Teg]

Calm down marxist, I think Seoulstriker can be a good guy, and was just joking. I think...

[California Joe]

Just don't mention ****o chicks around him. :roll: