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pinkeye
11-13-2003, 02:54 PM
since some of you have bitched about providing "news and information" from alternative sources, here's an article from the st.peterburg times:

How Iraq built its weapons programs
With a little help from its friends.
By TOM DRURY, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published March 16, 2003


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Say you run a filling station, says Nancy Wysocki, and one of your customers buys some gasoline and commits arson. "Does the person at the gas station feel bad about it?"

Wysocki is a vice president at American Type Culture Collection, a nonprofit bioresource center in Virginia that exported anthrax bacteria and other pathogens to Saddam Hussein's Iraq from 1985 to 1989.

"You have no crystal ball," Wysocki says, "and you never know what's going to happen 10, 20, 30 years from now about anything."

Yet here we are, on the eve of what could turn into a $100-billion war to disarm and dismantle the Iraqi dictatorship. U.N. inspectors are working against the clock to figure out if Iraq retains chemical and biological weapons, the systems to deliver them, and the capacity to manufacture them.

And here's the strange part, easily forgotten in the barrage of recent rhetoric: It was Western governments and businesses that helped build that capacity in the first place. From anthrax to high-speed computers to artillery ammunition cases, the militarily useful products of a long list of Western democracies flowed into Iraq in the decade before its 1990 invasion of Kuwait.

Said former Sen. Donald Riegle, the Michigan Democrat who once conducted hearings on Iraq's weapons programs and Gulf War Syndrome, in an interview last week, "What is absolutely crystal clear is this: That if Saddam Hussein today has a large arsenal of biological weapons, partly it was the United States that provided the very live viruses that he needed to create those weapons."

The if is critical. Whether the Iraqis still have significant chemical and biological weaponry remains an open question, although even French President Jacques Chirac says they probably do.

"It's very clear that they did have," and declared as much to the United Nations in 1995, said Jacqueline Cattani, director of the Center for Biological Defense at the University of South Florida. "It's not very clear that they have destroyed it. And so no one knows, basically."

Inspecting teams have reported finding little so far beyond 50 liters of the chemical weapon mustard gas. But the country is large and germs are small. Hans Blix in his recent dossier said Iraq may still have around 10,000 liters of anthrax, whether from American sources or elsewhere.


* * *
American Type Culture Collection was not the only supplier to send biological materials to Iraq in the decade before the Gulf War, when the Reagan and first Bush administrations tilted toward Iraq in its eight-year war with Iran. Also between 1985 and 1989, the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," including West Nile virus, according to Riegle's investigators.
"We did work with Iraq's scientists along with other scientists on microbiological agents and reagents," said CDC spokesman LLelwyn Grant last week. "That did occur in the mid-80s but . . . there were no other shipments that were sent after the incident involving Iraq's invasion of Kuwait."

Grant and Wysocki both said that Iraqi clients could not have acquired biological materials without setting forth a legitimate research purpose. In a 1995 letter to Sen. Riegle, then-CDC director David Satcher disclosed a shipment that had been hand-carried to Iraq by Dr. Mahammad Mahmud after three months of training in a CDC laboratory. Most of those materials, Satcher said, were "non-infectious diagnostic reagents for detecting evidence of infections to mosquito-borne viruses."

And Cattani of USF cautioned against being too quick to judge past decisions.

"It's common knowledge that, prior to the events of September and October of 2001, the policy or the ability for anyone to purchase some of these agents for research and testing was unrestricted commercially, and that's changed," she said. "There were uses for these things, especially for testing animals against anthrax. A lot of these are nonhuman pathogens naturally. Anthrax is a disease of cattle, basically. Because they were used in the context of veterinary screening and treatment, no one really thought of their potential at that time as biological weapons."


* * *
Also before the Gulf War, Iraq took delivery on billions of dollars of equipment "useful for making mass destruction weapons" from companies operating in more than a dozen Western nations: Germany mostly, but also the United States, Britain, France, Austria, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and more, according to Iraq Watch, a research group affiliated with the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control.

This wasn't, of course, charity. There was money to be made. The group's analysis of U.S. exports that ended up in Iraq's nuclear weapons and long-range missile programs between 1985 and 1990 found that Unisys made $2.6-million, Semetex $5.1-million, Hewlett Packard $1.6-million and International Computer Systems $7.4-million.

"Much of what came from America went with the blessing of the U.S. Commerce Department, which approved the sale of more than $1.5-billion worth of dual-use goods," wrote Iraq Watch's Kelly Motz. "An honest assessment of the problem we face in Iraq is that we are still trying to rectify our past indiscretions. The fact that U.S. troops may one day lay down their lives to destroy these exports is the price we may have to pay."

Of course, as Dr. Cattani suggested, much has changed in the last 15 years. These transactions happened before Iraq invaded Kuwait; before Iraq in defeat agreed to disclose and destroy its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs; and long before anthrax became a household word as still-unsolved mailings killed six people and emptied congressional offices in the fall of 2001.

"All I can say to you is that Iraq was an ally of the United States in the 1980s," said Wysocki of American Type Culture Collection. "The Department of Commerce approved all requests for shipments of biological samples requested by Iraq, made from ATCC, and that is the law."

But even then the United States, if not its scientific supply houses, had strong and growing reason to know that Hussein was dangerous.

According to Germs, the authoritative bioweapons book by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists Judith Miller, Stephen Engelberg and William Broad, a classified study produced by the Armed Forces Medical Intelligence Center in June 1988 found Iraq "well on its way to building 'a bacteriological arsenal' under the cover of legitimate scientific research."

The report even noted that the Iraqis were at the time buying bacterial strains from American Type Culture Collection.

Sales of dual-use technology sanctioned by the Commerce Department should have raised red flags as well, said Motz of Iraq Watch.

"A number of those sales were going to known entities in Iraq. They sent them to places in Iraq where we knew exactly what they were working on. They were sending to known nuclear entities or known missile entities."

And harsher evidence of Hussein's intentions was not hard to find. Iraq had killed thousands of residents of the northern Iraqi town of Halabja with chemical weapons in March 1988, when the town was held by Iranian forces and Kurdish guerrillas. After initial denials, Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz admitted in July 1988 that Iraq had in fact used chemical weapons.

None of this was enough to stop the transactions with Iraq.
"At the time, as nearly as one could construct the thinking," said Riegle, "the United States was principally focused on Iran as the main problem in that area. And because Iraq and Saddam Hussein were a direct rival and opponent of Iran, the thinking appears to have been in the Reagan-Bush period that they were prepared to help Saddam Hussein because he was in a sense with us against Iran."

As with many "devil's bargains," he said, "it's come back to haunt us."

The immediate problem, Riegle said, is that if Iraq does retain biological and chemical weapons, and they're either used on purpose or kicked up by U.S. bombing, "Are we in a position to fully protect our own troops, let alone civilian populations?"

He said that more than 100,000 veterans of the 1991 Gulf War came home with serious medical problems as the result of chemical and biological agents stirred up by that bombing campaign.

"My concern now is we may now be on the verge of repeating that very same thing."

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 02:57 PM
here is an older article about eastern europe's weapons sales to iraq:

from the September 11, 2002 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0911/p01s03-woeu.html

Iraq buying arms in East Europe's black markets
Two Czechs and a German were arrested in the latest smuggling case.
By Arie Farnam | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

PRAGUE, CZECH REPUBLIC - The Bush administration may not be ready to make its plans for war with Iraq official, but Saddam Hussein appears to be rearming and preparing for aerial assault in earnest.

The pull of Iraq's need for weaponry can be felt a thousand miles from Baghdad in Central and Eastern Europe. Several illegal weapons transfers to Iraq have been uncovered in postcommunist Europe during the past few months, and experts on organized crime estimate that most are still successfully hidden.

Most recently, two people were arrested in the Czech Republic, a new NATO member, for allegedly organizing illicit exports of Russian, Ukrainian, and Bulgarian arms. Investigators will not discuss the case, which opened two weeks ago, saying only that the Czech pair, a 28-year-old man and a 69-year-old woman, were at the center of a ring smuggling weapons to "Middle Eastern states under United Nations embargo."

Michal Zantovsky, chairman of the Czech Senate Committee for Defense and Security Policy, confirmed that the group is suspected of selling weapons to Iraq, Iran, and Syria over three-years.

Czech, German, and Swiss police searched homes in Prague, discovering catalogs offering military equipment to "interested persons in Arab states." A third suspect, a Russian man with Canadian citizenship, was apprehended in Germany. Investigators say a number of deals had already been successfully concluded, including sales of Russian-made Mi-8 and Mi-17 combat helicopters, Kalashnikov rifles, antitank grenades, and mobile anti-aircraft missile systems.

Within the past year, US intelligence sources have said that Iraq has a Eastern European radar system that can detect US stealth bombers.

Roman Kupcinsky, head of Crime, Corruption and Terrorism Watch, a publication of US-funded Radio Free Europe, says that the latest case indicates that arms-smuggling groups are using a NATO country as a base for money laundering and organizing deals. "This one group has probably been crippled, but it represents just a tiny fraction of the arms-trafficking underworld here. Eastern European arms continue to go to unstable Arab states and there is virtually no system in place to control them."

In the back room of a pub overlooking Prague's medieval quarter, a Russian, who does not want his name revealed, explains how the arms-trafficking system works. "I got my first taste of the arms trade while working at a refrigerator company in the Ukraine a couple of years ago," he says. "We were approached by military men with flashy brochures of weapons at bargain prices. They asked us to act as a front company to sell the weapons as 'refrigerators' and to ask no questions."

Prague, the former Russian military information officer says, is now the favored base of operations for middlemen selling weapons to the Arab world. "This is the ideal headquarters if you want to sell weapons to Iraq," he says. "The Czechs have a good cover by being in NATO. They have all the right contacts from the old days, and they are willing to do anything for easy money. That's what the arms business is: unbelievably easy money."

The end of the cold war left East Bloc countries with massive stockpiles of unused Soviet-era weapons and a hunger for quick cash. In recent years, billions of dollars' worth of weapons have passed out of Eastern Europe into Third World conflict zones.

"Eastern European countries are not very choosy about who buys their weapons, and their economies tend to be highly dependent on arms exports," Mr. Zantovsky says. "It is altogether possible that individuals within the civil service are involved in illegal deals. It may not be policy, but corruption is rampant."

Western experts on Iraq suspect that weapons from Central and Eastern Europe pass through Jordan and Syria to reach Iraq. Iraq appears to be paying for the weapons with unauthorized oil exports, which are reexported as Syrian oil. Syrian oil exports have unaccountably increased by 100,000-200,000 barrels per day in the past year.

"It is not that difficult to smuggle weapons to Iraq.... There is basically no control of ships coming into Syrian ports and trucks take the cargo over the border into Iraq," says a Western diplomat who is an expert on Iraq.

Iraqi Army deserters say they witnessed the delivery of Czech-made missiles and guidance systems to Iraq last February. "It involved weapons worth $800,000. The freight was unloaded in the Syrian harbor of Latakia and then transported to Iraq," three Iraqis told the British Guardian newspaper earlier this year.

The Iraqi government denies that it is importing weapons.

Large Russian and Ukrainian military delegations have visited Baghdad in recent months to assess Iraq's weapons needs. Officially, deliveries will only be made if UN sanctions are lifted. But recent smuggling scandals in both vendor countries point to illegal arms transfers. Iraqi Trade Minister Mohammed Mehdi Saleh told the visiting Russian delegation that Baghdad could order more than $10 billion worth of Russian weapons, according to press reports. A source within the Ukrainian delegation told Mr. Kupcinsky that they, too, were given a huge shopping list of weapons the Iraqis wanted, and then the Ukrainians sang "Happy Birthday" to Saddam.

Earlier this year Ukrainian bodyguard Nikolai Melnichenko revealed recordings of the private conversations of Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma to a court in San Francisco. The tapes, which were inspected by Virginia-based BEK TEK experts, captured a discussion in which Mr. Kuchma approved the sale of three Kalchuga radar systems to Iraq through a Jordanian middleman for $100 million. The Kalchuga is a mobile, passive radar system which can overcome US stealth technology and detect air and land targets up to 500 miles away.

Czech arms company Tesla Pardubice has produced a similar system, called Tamara, which brought down two US bombers during the 1990s Balkan wars. Czech arms dealers tried to sell Tamara systems to Iraq in 1997, but at least one deal was halted in Turkey.

During the cold war, Czech arms companies supplied much of the Third World, including Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and North Korea, with high-tech military equipment and explosives. Sanctions against clients have drastically cut into profits, but sales continue in various shades of gray. Last year, despite pressure from NATO allies, the Czech Republic officially sold 20 L-39 Albatross light jet fighters to Yemen, a country notorious for reselling weapons to embargoed states such as Sudan.

Meanwhile, several recent arrests suggest that the black-market trade in Czech-made Semtex, a virtually undetectable plastic explosive popular with terrorist groups, is booming.

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 02:58 PM
EYE ON THE GULF
Who really built
Iraq's arsenal?
Germany biggest offender in covert sale
of weapons to Baghdad, says G2 report

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 24, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


When U.S. troops and allies engage Iraqi forces in battle next month, they will be facing units armed with European weapons continuously delivered to Iraq throughout the course of the embargo – including arms delivered in the last few weeks, reports Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin, an online intelligence news resource.

The biggest offending European nation in supplying illicit arms to Iraq is Germany, reports G2, even while Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has joined France's Prime Minister Jacque Chirac as the leading cheerleaders for giving international arms inspectors more time to determine if Iraq is in violation of United Nations resolutions.

According to the latest issue of G2 Bulletin, Iraq's own reports to the United Nations Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

"Even while playing the role of peacemaker looking only for solid proof of arms violations by Iraq, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder knows the truth – that he and his country have provided much of the equipment and expertise Iraq has needed to reinvigorate its efforts to build weapons of mass destruction," the newsletter reports.

The German intelligence agency BND is believed to have served as a silent partner in a Hamburg front company, Water Engineering Trading or WET, which facilitated the export of materiel needed for such arms, the report says. Half of the precursor materials and a majority of the tools and the technology for their conversion into weapons were sold to Iraq by German firms -- both prior to and after the 1991 Gulf War.

The German firm Preussag is the leading supplier of chemical agents and production equipment to Iraq, according to documents turned over to the U.N. by Baghdad. Preussag is a subsidiary of Europe's largest travel agent and tour operator TUI. It is also a company that has been very supportive of Schroeder. In early 1998, when Schroeder was running for re-election as prime minister of the state of Lower Saxony, he had the state buy 51 percent of Preussag's troubled steel division to the tune of $500 million, claiming that 12,000 jobs were at stake. Schroeder went on to win the crucial election, setting him up to become chancellor.

Included on the Iraqi suppliers' lists are other German corporate names: Hoechst, Daimler-Benz, Siemens, Kloeckner, Carl Zeiss, Schott Glas, Karl Kolb-Pilot Plant and WTB (Walter Thosti Boswau). The WTB undertaking was supported by a credit guarantee for several hundred million German marks by Hermes, a German government export and credit insurer. Rhein-Bayern supplied Iraq with eight mobile toxicological labs housed in sand-colored, camouflage-painted Magirus trucks.

Germany may be the biggest offender in Europe, but it is not alone as a weapons supplier to Iraq. Western intelligence sources marked more than 20 countries as "Iraqi arms embargo busters" and the list could be longer, according to G2. The suppliers have been using mainly Syrian or Lebanese ports as ways for passage to Iraq.

According to U.N. officials and American military intelligence collected by the Defense Intelligence Agency, "a powder-like agent" entered Iraq legally late in 2002, G2 reports. The U.N. had approved the import of 25 metric tons of a material designated for the Samara pharmaceutical industry in the framework of the "oil for food program." The material, called Aerosil, is an important ingredient in the manufacturing of various types of chemical weapons, including nerve gas. More than 100 metric tons of this material, manufactured in Germany, were bought and delivered just before the first Persian Gulf War. A sensitive British intelligence document claims that a similar product, described as "silicon diaroxide," arrived in Iraq more recently. Analysts say that this "powder-like substance" is also used to produce the VX agent capable of endangering the lives of persons even when wearing protective suits. According to the British, there is no way to determine the exact quantities of VX in Iraqi hands, G2 reports.

Croatia, Serbia, Albania, Slovakia, Macedonia and Montenegro continue to provide Iraq with conventional weapons, according to G2 sources. Ukraine is believed to have sold more than $100 million worth of military equipment to Iraq.

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 03:04 PM
links:

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jcbw/jcbw030417_1_n.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/119547.php

http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/isafp/2002/msg00148.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4553728-108733,00.html

http://www.logosjournal.com/gendzier_iraq.pdf

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73292,00.html

He219
11-13-2003, 03:22 PM
How Iraq built its weapons programs (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5427)
That's an easy one. I'll give you a picture:

http://www.sohoblues.com/GulfWarWeb/images/previews/preview9.jpg


http://i.xanga.com/dissidentfrogman/saddamgraph.gif
Source (http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/atirq_data.html)

Miles Teg
11-13-2003, 03:25 PM
I haven't already break down this graph?

Let's restart :
13% of weapon importated come from France between 1973 and 2002.
But how many between 1973 and 1983?
How many between 1991 and 2001?

You don't have to be very smart to conclude. :D

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 03:47 PM
the problem with this graph is that it doesn't provide any context to the information, nor does it provide any detailed information pertaining to the type and applicability of materials transferred. in other words, if country x shipped 50 tonnes of ammunition and armaments, how does this compare to country y that provided germ agents, for example. denmark and the u.s. each contributed 1 percent, yet it would be rather foolish to believe that the support provided by each was equivalent. and there's plenty of proof indicating that this was clearly not the case.
furthermore, despite the fact that france would like to believe it is a major player in international affairs, the reality is that during the 1980s nothing happened without american and soviet oversight, consent, etc.

WARPIG
11-13-2003, 04:06 PM
Good post pinkeye.
I have to point out though..pointing fingers at who contributed what to Iraq at what times is like a gang of murderers pointing blame based on who stabbed the guy the most.
No wonder the EU didn't want the US in Iraq airing out the dirty laundry.

Vance
11-13-2003, 04:13 PM
You know, certain countries don't ALWAYS stay as allies. And vice versa.

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 04:21 PM
Good post pinkeye.
I have to point out though..pointing fingers at who contributed what to Iraq at what times is like a gang of murderers pointing blame based on who stabbed the guy the most.
No wonder the EU didn't want the US in Iraq airing out the dirty laundry.

as i have pointed out several times, there's plenty of blame to go around. however, some members on this site need to accept the fact that the u.s. played a critical role in creating and supporting the saddam regime, not only in providing materiel but also directly and indirectly supporting weapons sales from its nato allies. nothing happened without american consent. this not an attempt to deflect the blame from france, germany, russia, china, etc., but i do not think i have seen any of the pro-war american members admit that their leaders committed serious mistakes vis-a-vis iraq during the iran-iraq war. many american members simply refuse to accept any criticism on this subject. moreover, many refuse to criticise the actions of their own government(s).

Flagg
11-13-2003, 04:41 PM
I have to point out though..pointing fingers at who contributed what to Iraq at what times is like a gang of murderers pointing blame based on who stabbed the guy the most.
No wonder the EU didn't want the US in Iraq airing out the dirty laundry.

Good one WARPIG.....I never thoguht of it that way.....quite a funny analogy.

Flagg
11-13-2003, 04:47 PM
however, some members on this site need to accept the fact that the u.s. played a critical role in creating and supporting the saddam regime, not only in providing materiel but also directly and indirectly supporting weapons sales from its nato allies. nothing happened without american consent. this not an attempt to deflect the blame from france, germany, russia, china, etc., but i do not think i have seen any of the pro-war american members admit that their leaders committed serious mistakes vis-a-vis iraq during the iran-iraq war. many american members simply refuse to accept any criticism on this subject.

The US did play an important role in the horrible CR@P that happened in both Iraq AND Afghanistan.......but isn't it quite ironic that when you do look deeper at the issue and consider the involvement EACH nation had in arming/supporting Iraq...it would appear the strongest supporters of the Iraqi regime when there was money to be made in the 1970s & 1980s(namely Iraq and Russa) were amongst the most vocal critics of intervention.

Also, your claim of nothing happening without US consent is bogus....there was money to be made...and the Russians & French simply made the most.

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 04:53 PM
I have to point out though..pointing fingers at who contributed what to Iraq at what times is like a gang of murderers pointing blame based on who stabbed the guy the most.
No wonder the EU didn't want the US in Iraq airing out the dirty laundry.

Good one WARPIG.....I never thoguht of it that way.....quite a funny analogy.

the analogy may be appropriate, but not necessarily in the context of this thread. the graph indicates that several countries contributed approx. the same amount. however, country x could have supplied chemical agents and dual-use technology, whereas country y could have supplied spare parts for trucks, radar equipment, helmets, etc. in other words, there may be many guilty parties, but i probably would not place denmark in the same boat as the u.s.s.r. nor the u.s.

pinkeye
11-13-2003, 05:02 PM
however, some members on this site need to accept the fact that the u.s. played a critical role in creating and supporting the saddam regime, not only in providing materiel but also directly and indirectly supporting weapons sales from its nato allies. nothing happened without american consent. this not an attempt to deflect the blame from france, germany, russia, china, etc., but i do not think i have seen any of the pro-war american members admit that their leaders committed serious mistakes vis-a-vis iraq during the iran-iraq war. many american members simply refuse to accept any criticism on this subject.

The US did play an important role in the horrible CR@P that happened in both Iraq AND Afghanistan.......but isn't it quite ironic that when you do look deeper at the issue and consider the involvement EACH nation had in arming/supporting Iraq...it would appear the strongest supporters of the Iraqi regime when there was money to be made in the 1970s & 1980s(namely Iraq and Russa) were amongst the most vocal critics of intervention.

Also, your claim of nothing happening without US consent is bogus....there was money to be made...and the Russians & French simply made the most.

and we know this. the hypocrisy of said nations has been recognised. no one is arguing against this point, for we all know that france and germany were sleeping with the enemy.

of course the u.s. knew what was going on. aside from the fact that much of this information was in the public domain in the 1980s thanks to the media, one would assume that the u.s., as a superpower, would have known about all of this. isn't that what the cia, the nsa, etc., in addition to allied intelligence services, are for? it was in the u.s.' national security interest to support iraq during the 1980s.

wholagun
11-13-2003, 05:04 PM
Poland 4 % :cantbeli:

Ah those beer drinking, hockey playing, Iraqi weapon selling Czechs..

khukuri
11-13-2003, 05:29 PM
Really good post pinkey, it would be very interesting to see if any of the right wing pro war guys would admit that and critisize their own people. Lets see, untill now nobody has, only blaiming other countrys

However great post


as i have pointed out several times, there's plenty of blame to go around. however, some members on this site need to accept the fact that the u.s. played a critical role in creating and supporting the saddam regime, not only in providing materiel but also directly and indirectly supporting weapons sales from its nato allies. nothing happened without american consent. this not an attempt to deflect the blame from france, germany, russia, china, etc., but i do not think i have seen any of the pro-war american members admit that their leaders committed serious mistakes vis-a-vis iraq during the iran-iraq war. many american members simply refuse to accept any criticism on this subject. moreover, many refuse to criticise the actions of their own government(s).

Flagg
11-13-2003, 10:52 PM
of course the u.s. knew what was going on.

But when specifically concerning France and Russia...the two biggest weapons suppliers....the US had little influence over their arms sales/foreign policy.


aside from the fact that much of this information was in the public domain in the 1980s thanks to the media, one would assume that the u.s., as a superpower, would have known about all of this. isn't that what the cia, the nsa, etc., in addition to allied intelligence services, are for? it was in the u.s.' national security interest to support iraq during the 1980s.

If the US was off the mark intelligence wise with recent events( :oops: ), then who's to say they couldn't have been without a clue 20-30 years ago?

Afterall, the massive US intelligence apparatus was obsessed with the Soviet Union at the time.....if the US currently has few native speaking Middle Easterners on payroll.....it probably had even fewer way back then.

And yes it was in the US's best interest to allow Iraq and Iran to bleed each other dry as it would focus and completely absorb the efforts of the Arab world's two largest and most powerful countries AWAY from it's primary ally in the region Israel.

Just like it was in the US's best interest to bleed the Soviet's dry in Afghanistan...to prevent them from focusing expansionist policy elsewhere.

It's was a relatively cheap(in $$$ if not in local populace lives) endeavour.

It can be viewed as a pretty Machiavellian policy....but it did help prevent(intentionally or unintentionally) another full-scale Arab-Israeli War(1982 Lebanon notwithstanding) and set back development of an Islamic nuke by quite a few years.

You'll notice the US didn't intervene directly in the Iran/Iraq War until it started to seriously affect oil supply/oil prices during the "Tanker War".


the analogy may be appropriate, but not necessarily in the context of this thread. the graph indicates that several countries contributed approx. the same amount. however, country x could have supplied chemical agents and dual-use technology, whereas country y could have supplied spare parts for trucks, radar equipment, helmets, etc. in other words, there may be many guilty parties, but i probably would not place denmark in the same boat as the u.s.s.r. nor the u.s.

Yeah,yeah,yeah.....we can argue all day about how much more weight should be given to mail-order disease samples bought by Iraq from the US(which could be purchased by an individual medical researcher/practitioner without any type of checks in place until recently) compared to a nuclear weapons starter kit sold by France and enough "modified fertilizer" production capacity sold by Germany to cover Iraq's actual true agricultural needs by a factor of 50.

I think the best way to look at it is...who profited in actual $$$ the most?

Europe