Out with the European Union! In with the Franco-German Union

[He219]

http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//uploaded/uploaded-34450_large.jpg

Germany and France exploring new alliance (http://www.iht.com/articles/117509.html)

Idea of closer ties spurred by larger EU

PARIS Out with the European Union! In with the Franco-German Union? That was the gist of a series of articles in the Thursday edition of Le Monde claiming that France and Germany are "studying a project of unity."
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The newspaper said that Paris and Berlin were emboldened by their collective opposition to the war in Iraq and were fearful of losing influence once the European Union admits 10 new members next May.
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"If a Europe of 25 fails, what will be left for France?" Le Monde quoted Jean-Pierre Raffarin, the French prime minister, as saying in reference to the enlarged European Union. His answer, according to the paper, was the "the Franco-German rapprochement."
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Le Monde said that Pascal Lamy of France, the trade commissioner at the European Commission, would like to see a "bund," or alliance, that would allow France and Germany to fuse their militaries and diplomatic corps and to share France's seat at the United Nations Security Council.
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The paper quoted Dominique de Villepin, the French foreign minister, as saying that a rapprochement with Germany was the "only gamble that we cannot lose."
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The articles relied almost entirely on the views of French officials, although at one point a German academic was quoted as saying that the German defense and foreign ministries could have problems with the idea.
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Le Monde pointed out - and analysts in Brussels agreed - that talk of a Franco-German union is partly a negotiating tactic to influence deadlocked discussions on the final text of the European Constitution.
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France, Germany and several other countries are trying to push through the draft constitution with only minor changes but are meeting strong resistance from countries like Spain and Poland, which object to a revamped voting system. Britain and some Eastern European newcomers to the EU are also resisting moves to extend cooperation into areas like defense, taxation and foreign policy.
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By threatening to focus more closely on their own union, France and Germany are sending a message to the newcomers about what they see as their core role as the original founders of the European Union.
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The Italian government, which is mediating the talks, hopes to have an agreement on the constitution before Christmas. All 15 members of the EU and the 10 countries joining in May must agree on the final text.
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Bill Drozdiak, the head of the Transatlantic Center of the German Marshall Fund, a nonprofit research organization in Brussels, said that the idea of a France-German alliance had been periodically proposed in the postwar years.
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"I'll believe it when I see it," Drozdiak said. "It always founders on the fundamentals."
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France and Germany share some diplomatic posts, have regular exchanges within their ministries and occasionally have joint cabinet meetings. But they have trouble agreeing on certain issues, among them France's nuclear program.
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At a European Union summit meeting in October, President Jacques Chirac of France sat in for Chancellor Gerhard Schröder of Germany, who traveled back to Berlin to vote on important legislation.
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Armed with new evidence that diversity is good for business, the EC said that all but three of the EU's 15 members had ignored a four-month-old deadline to comply with a law that aims to stop racial discrimination in areas such as pay and access to jobs and education.
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It cited a report prepared for the commission showing that firms were benefiting from promoting diversity of race, *** and age.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1083951,00.html

[Zach R.]

This may lead to WW3.

[Operation Ivy]

This may lead to WW3.

Exactly what i was gonna say :( ...Question for the Europeans here is this gonna create lots of tension in Europe ???

[Miles Teg]

Question for the Europeans here is this gonna create lots of tension in Europe ???

Why ??

Maybe I will read again the main article of this text.

[tony6]

There is a tension about that already:)

[fantassin]

There could only be tension from countries that can't see the grand design of real EU building. Know of any other country other than France willing to share its permanent seat at the UN security council?

China? the USA? the UK? Russia? I think not....

France is so "arrogant" that it's even willing to share the most prized diplomatic possession of all, a permanent seat at the UN security council...

Countries such as Poland that are crying for EU money and help on Monday and buying US F16 on Tuesday could feel threatened...countries really wishing to build a meaningful EU, not just a purveyor of money to poor European countries and poodles to the US will not feel threatened

The USA, that cannot stand the idea of a Europe standing without US supplied crutches (NATO), will hate the idea, especially after OIF.

But it wont be an alliance against the US, that would be preposterous. That would be an alliance to make the presence of the US less necessary and in the long run more popular abroad.

[Herrmannek]

Countries such as Poland that are crying for EU money and help on Monday and buying US F16 on Tuesday could feel threatened...


Poland will be netto payer so crying for EU money is crying for our money :). And we just buy things suiting our needs not EU's or whoever's else needs.





countries really wishing to build a meaningful EU, not just a purveyor of money to poor European countries and poodles to the US will not feel threatened
Defeniding our crucial intersts isn't nothing wrong especialy France and Germany do the same wich much worse style by covering their own buisnesses under shield of EU .

[martinexsquaddie]

the french goverment is just pissed that the EU will not be run by france
we could always have the EU with 24 countrys and leave the french out of it

[aeternum]

Guys this is nothing but an idea, a map exercise.. nothing which is close to become a reality.

[aeternum]

Poland will be netto payer so crying for EU money is crying for our money :). And we just buy things suiting our needs not EU's or whoever's else needs.

LOL... paying? From what? Poland is a poor country.. The majority are still farmers. Poland will receive the most money once they join in.

just check this article: "Poland to gain most from EU enlargement"


.... Assuming there are no major changes in the EU budget, Poland will be able to finance 4.5 percent of its GNP (gross national product) for the years 2007 to 2013 using EU funds. This is the equivalent of about 2,000 euro per person,....


Germany and France are ... set to contribute more to the EU's coffers. The German contribution will reach 1,350 euro per citizen by 2013.

Source: http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=15&aid=13475


And you just buying things that suits your needs is the absolutly wrong position. Once you join the Union you will realize that. If you hit the EU you will hit yourself especially as Poland receivs way more than they pay.

Just check the latest report by the EU commission about the progress of the reforms to make the new countries fit to join.. Poland is rated the last! You are way behind the others.

Source: http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=15&aid=13407


... Overall, Poland is the least prepared of the accession countries. Of the 39 issues still to be dealt with by the countries, nine of them concern the biggest new member state.

It was reported that as soon as you got the money you wanted at the negotiations you stopped with all the reforms needed to join. This shows pretty much why Poland wanted to be in the EU, you just want the money, you dont share the ideas behind the EU.

So thinking about a core Europe with those sharing the same idea, is just the logical next step as a failure of the 25-EU is possible with so many countries and so many different ideas whats the EU is all about.

Poland cried the most, but it turns out now they cant back their demands on money up.

[Herrmannek]

Poland will be netto payer so crying for EU money is crying for our money :). And we just buy things suiting our needs not EU's or whoever's else needs.
LOL... paying? From what? Poland is a poor country.. The majority are still farmers. Poland will receive the most money once they join in.


It's not as simple as being poor or rich. You don't get UE money just that, you must have projects, buisnesplans, your own money for investitions and fulfill many other conditions with Polish farmers or firms can't meet so we pay to UE but can't get back those money. Plain nad simple



And you just buying things that suits your needs is the absolutly wrong position. Once you join the Union you will realize that. If you hit the EU you will hit yourself especially as Poland receivs way more than they pay.

Again we will probably pay more than get or in the best case we bilance at zero :)

You edited your post so i haven't it in quote but:

We don't have bad will and I as a Pole want that money(if any) would be used for development not for stagnacy. But we have poor goverment now, we have great problems with corruptions and such things,and as a big country we aren't worse than former east germany. It's not easy to get ride of old habits especialy we haven't West Poland :) with help us with money and experience.

[perdurabo]

:cantbeli: we are soo poor :cantbeli: the land of the farmers :cantbeli: do you know that our economics is bigger that all other countrys together that are joining GayUnion? (BTW i said no to EU but i was in minority) and our economical growth is bigger than economical growth of whole GayUnion (in % of national product brutto)?
yep we are surly land of a farmers:) and we don't have tractors we still use horses and light candles and use arrows to post messages on this board:) :cantbeli: an this says person in Europe :cantbeli: prabably even Texas cowboy knows more about Poland than french_gay_men :cantbeli:

[aeternum]

read my edited version.. i have provided a link to an article, about how Poland will benefit the most from the enlargment. You will get 4.5% of your GNP payed by the EU, thats 2.000 Euros per citizen. While on the other hand Germany pays 1.350 Euros per citizen into the EU budget.

You get it? You receive 2.000 and germany pays 1.350.. so much for Poland is a netto payer...... lol

[He219]

:cantbeli: we are soo poor :cantbeli: the land of the farmers :cantbeli: do you know that our economics is bigger that all other countrys together that are joining GayUnion? (BTW i said no to EU but i was in minority) and our economical growth is bigger than economical growth of whole GayUnion (in % of national product brutto)?
yep we are surly land of a farmers:) and we don't have tractors we still use horses and light candles and use arrows to post messages on this board:) :cantbeli: an this says person in Europe :cantbeli: prabably even Texas cowboy knows more about Poland than french_gay_men :cantbeli:

rofl LOL!

Those figures you mentioned aeternum, they are dynamic and not fixed over time, relative stimulus for socialization...

[aeternum]

:cantbeli: we are soo poor :cantbeli: the land of the farmers :cantbeli: do you know that our economics is bigger that all other countrys together that are joining GayUnion?

Yea, just because Poalnd is the biggest country that joins. So overall you have the biggest ecomomy, but per capita you are way behind Slovenia for instance, which is per capita the richest country that joins.

[aeternum]

yep we are surly land of a farmers:)

Ok i admit, talking about the majority wasnt correct. I have looked it up, but the agricultural labour force still holds a 26.7% share of the total employment, while in an western indutsrial nation its way below 10%. So yes Poland is still for an western industrial nation a Land of farmers.

Source: http://europa.eu.int/comm/agriculture/publi/peco/poland/summary/sum_en.htm

[perdurabo]

you visited Poland? :) if no i recomend you to go here on next hollidays :) (and pay a tribute to our turistics busines rofl )

[He219]

Way Behind, $7,200 vs. $10,300? 5% agrarian = a buch of farmers??
Look for yourself, albeit 1999 figures...

http://www.abacci.com/atlas/economy3.asp?countryID=300

http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/slovenia/slovenia_economy.html

Purchasing Power 276.5B vs. 20.4B
Exports 27.8B vs. 9.8B.

:cantbeli:

[Miles Teg]

I think aeternum words are rude.
I think pols are our friends and will be welcome in the Europe club.

It may some time they are already making military cooperation with german, to share training and exercise.

[aeternum]

you visited Poland? :) if no i recomend you to go here on next hollidays :) (and pay a tribute to our turistics busines rofl )

Is this your contribution to this discussion. Yea lots of content really. Im impressed.

[khukuri]

This may lead to WW3.

:slap:

What? Are you feeling som e competition. Cant handle the fact that other countries started to cooperate?

[Marxist203]

It will only lead to world war 3 if the US and Britain feel threatened some how...I doubt our allies in NATO will threaten us. The idea is ridiculous...The United States does need someone to limit them. The Balance of Power, our british viewers will know this best.

[aeternum]

5% agrarian = a buch of farmers??

Yes


This extremely high level of agricultural employment is one of the biggest challenges facing Poland as it seeks to modernise and restructure the agricultural sector without destroying rural communities.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/agriculture/publi/peco/poland/summary/sum_en.htm

[wholagun]

Chirac has said that he would block Poland's and other Eastern Euro nations from joining EU unless they did what he wanted them to do... :fork: Im a supporter of the EU but if thats the kind of union we (poland) is to join, you can take that EU and shove it up your ass. We will not bend to Frane's demands.

We will be net payer for the first 2 years after which time we will get that money back and then some (alot actually)


Poland is rated the last! You are way behind the others.
We make up 40 million ppl of the 75 million set to join the EU. Notice thats more then half, secondly we make up half the economic output of the nations set to join.


It was reported that as soon as you got the money you wanted at the negotiations you stopped with all the reforms needed to join.
Im sure all ppl in Europe know that Poland right now has a piss poor **** face government that is very corrupt and ineffective ruling with a minority government. Not that easy to get things done.


shows pretty much why Poland wanted to be in the EU, you just want the money, you dont share the ideas behind the EU
Shows that EU states especially France wanted (were hoping) that Poland would conform to thier demands and thier view. Sorry ain't gonna happen.

The sense im getting from ppl on thier forum, those on other forms and those in Europe in general is that they don't like Poland. They know **** about it, but they don't like it. They are scared of us messing up the Union. As i said before I was pro Union because i belive there is potential, but with all this anti Poland and other Eastern States I don't see how this is ever gonna work especially when we are considered sub members.

In my opinion France is scared that Poland is becomming a regional power house, not all of Europe but in Central and Eastern Europe which means it can throw some weight around. That, coppled with the fact that it supports the US and is quickly rebuilding (upgrading) its military capability. This worries France because Poland wants power and influence and won't obey France's orders and wishes.

[Herrmannek]

.... Assuming there are no major changes in the EU budget, Poland will be able to finance 4.5 percent of its GNP (gross national product) for the years 2007 to 2013 using EU funds. This is the equivalent of about 2,000 euro per person ....

Poors and Rich(GNP in thousands of USD per person)
http://www.wprost.pl/G/europa/eu_info_biedni_i_bogaci.jpg

Look at that pic 4.5% of GNP, this number is such big only beacuse we have very low GNP, and those are optimistic numbers as I said we can't get those money from many reasons so it will be good if we get as much as we pay.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

If the Poles have any sense they should stick to their current agricultural regime and not adopt the f*ck*d up subsidy hungry ogre that we now call agriculture.

[aeternum]

We will be net payer for the first 2 years after which time we will get that money back and then some (alot actually)

Please back this up with numbers and sources. I have backed my claim up:

Again...

Assuming there are no major changes in the EU budget, Poland will be able to finance 4.5 percent of its GNP (gross national product) for the years 2007 to 2013 using EU funds. This is the equivalent of about 2,000 euro per person

Source: http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=15&aid=13475

So no, you are no net payers, you are receivers big time!


They are scared of us messing up the Union.

Exactly, im scared that Poland mess up the work done over the last 50 years.

[Herrmannek]

Please back this up with numbers and sources. I have backed my claim up:


Wait one year and you will see, and than wait another 5 and you will have nubers and trustfull sources :)




Assuming there are no major changes in the EU budget, Poland will be able to finance 4.5 percent of its GNP (gross national product) for the years 2007 to 2013 using EU funds. This is the equivalent of about 2,000 euro per person

per six years wich is ~350 EU per year and as wholegun said we don't get at least first 2 rates than we probably even left on minus in those first years, so
this doesn't look pink as you paint it aeternum. Do you think that we don't like optimistic visions?

[aeternum]

According to the "Agenda 2000" of the European Commission there are only 4 net payers out of the 10 new EU members for 2004 and 2005:

1. Malta (paying 25€ million more than they receive)
2. Slovenia (paying 129€ million more than they receive)
3. Tchechien (paying 185€ million more than they receive)
4. Cypris (paying 67€ million more than they receive)

no poland.

[radon]

The sense im getting from ppl on thier forum, those on other forms and those in Europe in general is that they don't like Poland. They know **** about it, but they don't like it. They are scared of us messing up the Union. .

Atleast here people fear more some cheap workforce, who will come to take jobs away. This may not be justified, but people are always paranoid about losing they'r jobs. If someone had to live with the low wages from the poorer countrys here, they could begin looking for a bridge to sleep under.

[duck]

Well, ascording to several sources the polish agricultural sector still has severe problems with hygiene and food safety issues. I've seen quite alarming reports on this.

COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES
Brussels, 9.10.2002 SEC(2002) 1408 2002
REGULAR REPORT ON
POLAND’S PROGRESS TOWARDS ACCESSION
{COM(2002) 700 final}

B. Criteria for membership

3.Ability to assume the obligations of membership

3.1. The chapters of the acquis

Chapter 7: Agriculture

page 69
...no progress has been made to enhance the administrative capacity for enforcing the legislation regarding contingency plans, animal health, animal welfare and public health..

page 70
...with a view to implementing the EC acquis concerning the testing of fallen stock, the system of collection of cadavers must be effective. The biggest concern in this field is the rendering of animal waste. None of the existing animal-rendering establishments meets EC standards. The project to set up a system for rendering of high risk animal wastes is not yet finalised...
page 71
...the upgrading of food-processing establishments has been progressing well, particularly in the meat sector. Progress in the dairy sector is less advanced. However, the classification of the majority of establishments appears not to have been fully reliable and the severity of the deficiencies to be rectified to have been underestimated. A significant number of establishments evaluated as having little prospect of meeting the relevant acquis have been closed but many establishments in this category still exist.
page 72
Conclusion: In order to be ready for membership, Poland will need to give urgent attention to completing legislative alignment, notably with regard to the veterinary and phyto-sanitary acquis. Of equal importance will be the strengthening of administrative capacity in all areas to ensure the effective implementation of the acquis.
Chapter 22: Environment

page 110
...in the field of air, the monitoring capacity needs to be strengthened, in
particular as regards particulates (PM10). As regards water, monitoring at the tap of drinking water needs to be extended and it needs to be ensured that all laboratories are able to measure the full set of parameters covered by the drinking water directive. At present, this is not the case...

page 111
Conclusion:
Negotiations on this chapter have been provisionally closed. Poland has been granted transitional arrangements with regard to

the sulphur content of liquid fuels (until 31st December 2006),
volatile organic compound emissions from storage and distribution of petrol (until 31st December 2005),
aspects of waste management relating to packaging (until 31st December 2007),
non-hazardous waste in landfills and shipments of certain wastes (until 31st December 2012),
urban waste water treatment (until 31st December 2015) and
the discharge of certain dangerous substances (until 31st December 2007),
existing Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control installations (until 31st December 2010) and
ionising radiation from medical equipment (until 31st December 2006).
3.3 General evaluation
page 135
...there are considerable gaps in the necessary implementing legislation, for example, in the veterinary, environment and food safety areas...

[wholagun]

wholagun wrote:
We will be net payer for the first 2 years after which time we will get that money back and then some (alot actually)


Please back this up with numbers and sources. I have backed my claim up:

I found statement for first year (I read somewhere for two years, Ill keep looking)

From Atricle

The Vienna Institute for International and Economic Studies predicted early this year that the impoverished Poland, after joining the EU, would be a net payer into the Community budget. The Vienna Institute's finding was confirmed by the Government Centre for Strategic Studies in Poland, which estimates that Poland during her first year of membership would be at best 300mln euros out of pocket. In this context, the recent announcement of the EU Budget Commissioner, Ms Michaele Schreyer, sounds particularly worrying. She stated that the size of Poland's contribution to the EU budget must be no less than 2.5 to 3 bln euros per annum. In the simplest terms, if such a sum, which represents some 7-8% of the national revenue, was diverted into the vast treasure chests of the European Commission, Poland's strangulated economy would have to die http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:TAJkzDT54_MJ:www.sfpol.com/polconinwako.html+Poland+net+payer+into+EU+first+two+years+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I stated that we would be net payers, but that we would get that money back and then more. [/quote]you are receivers big time
Let's hope so.

wholagun wrote:
They are scared of us messing up the Union.


[/quote]Exactly, im scared that Poland mess up the work done over the last 50 years[quote]
Poland and Eastern Europe was thrown into the jaws of the Soviet Union. Thanks to our misery, the west enjoyed freedom and prospered. We didn't. We took the fall, good to get some thing in return don't you think.
EU made some huge leaps in unity in the last 50 years no doubt. However, look at the present EU situation, if you take on the 10 EU states EU economic output is set to jump 5% equal to that of Netherlands alone. Not that much I know. But look at it this way, you invest in our economies (ill use poland for this threads sake) invest in Polands economy of 40 million ppl in 10 years think where it will be. The EU is getting a market ripe for growth.
Your worried about Poland being close buddies with US. Poland lays fair claim to the saddest history in Europe (don't say it doesn't cause everyone knows we do) we several million Polish citizens living in US more then any where else in the world. It makes sense to have close relationship with US don't it, especially if you have millions of your citizens in the US. Secondly, no European state helped us after WW1 or during communism, we were left to suffer yet again. US on the other hand was a huge supporter of Poland, and thank to US Poland became a country after WW1. Thats why Poles look to US for security( we were scewed over in the past way too much, and the obvious they have the biggest army and most funds (good investment) look at F16 deal we're suppose to get 9 billion in offset investsments.
However, change may be ont he horizon. Good article, interesting read. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2003/11/11/2003075413

[aeternum]

Well this article says all new Eu countries will be net receivers... (its in german)

Right now, we have 4 net receivers (Greece, ireland, Spain and Portugal)

http://castelligasse.at/Politik/EUnion/eunion.htm

[wholagun]

Ich spreche nicht viele Deutsch. Ich kann nicht das article verstechen.

[wholagun]

Well this article says all new Eu countries will be net receivers... (its in german)

Right now, we have 4 net receivers (Greece, ireland, Spain and Portugal)

I know they will be, Im not disputing that. What point are you trying to make?

[aeternum]

I know they will be, Im not disputing that. What point are you trying to make?

That Poland wont be a net payer as claimed in this thread.

[Shadow]

you visited Poland? :) if no i recomend you to go here on next hollidays :) (and pay a tribute to our turistics busines rofl )

I prefer the Cotê d' Azur! :P
No really.

[Shadow]

you visited Poland? :) if no i recomend you to go here on next hollidays :) (and pay a tribute to our turistics busines rofl )

I prefer the Cotê d' Azur! :P
No really.