NATO plans to take over Kaliningrad.

[fdt]

According to Leonid Ivashov, (vice-head of Russian Academy of Geopolitical Problems, ex. head of Dept. of International Military C-peration of Russian Defense Ministry, general-lieutenant ) RAGP has a document that proves that NATO is preparing a scenario of Kaliningrad take over. Title of mentioned document is to be: "Safeguarding of the US Military access to strategic regions of the World". The plan involves usage of 2 US divisions, one German and one British plus some independent brigades from other NATO countries (including Poland and Denmark). Conclusion is that appropriate countermeasures shall be taken quick and serious mode including the relocation of nuclear weapons to Kaliningrad.

:| WTF.... who and what is cooking here?

http://www.regnum.ru/news/419824.html


Вице-президент Российской академии геополитических проблем (РАГП), экс-начальник управления международного военного сотрудничества Министерства обороны России генерал-полковник Леонид Ивашов в интервью "Комсомольской правде-Калининград" рассказал о любопытном документе, который находится в распоряжении РАГП. Это исследование называется "Обеспечение доступа вооруженных сил США в стратегические регионы мира", заказчиком которого выступил объединенный комитет начальников штабов вооруженных сил США. В документе описываются военные операции по овладению важными стратегическими районами мира, в их числе и Калининградской областью. Американские эксперты утверждают, что сегодня у Вооруженных сил России боеспособны лишь части постоянной готовности. Значит, Москве придется проводить мобилизационные мероприятия сроком до 30 дней. Поэтому авторы предлагают заблаговременно сосредоточить на будущем театре военных действий необходимые запасы вооружений и военной техники, выделить для проведения операции 2 сухопутные дивизии США, по одной дивизии от Великобритании и Германии, а также бригады от других членов НАТО (в том числе Польши и Дании). А также задействовать вооруженные силы Литвы, Латвии и Эстонии, корабли и авиацию Северо-Атлантического альянса. "К этому сценарию надо относиться серьезно. Сорвать планы можно усилением оборонного потенциала страны, готовностью населения России к сопротивлению, в том числе и ведению партизанской войны, включению политических и экономических рычагов воздействия на блок НАТО (например, уход из европейских организаций, прекращение поставок газа, нефти, электроэнергии). Вплоть до разрыва дипломатических отношений с государствами, которые готовы участвовать в этом сценарии", - заявил Леонид Ивашов, добавив, что в настоящий момент Балтийское море из моря мира превращается в море конфронтации, а значит "Калининградскую группировку Балтийского флота нужно укреплять". Публикацию прокомментировал военный обозреватель "Комсомолки" Виктор Баранец: "Для меня все эти натовские прожекты - уже давно не открытие. Всего несколько лет назад, во время службы в Министерстве обороны, я имел возможность знакомиться и с другими документами, добытыми за рубежом. Руководство Минобороны еще в середине 90-х, когда приближение НАТО к нашим западным и северо-западным границам становилось реальностью, предлагало Кремлю сделать контршаг - разместить в Калининградском районе тактическое ядерное оружие. Это могло бы сильно остудить стремление НАТО упереться в российские кордоны. Но Ельцин струсил, побоявшись негативной реакции США. Теперь же мы имеем то, что имеем". По словам военного обозревателя "КП", "боеготовность Балтфлота, его военно-техническая мощь в результате бездарной военной реформы хиреют день ото дня". "У меня создается впечатление, что некоторые наши балтийские адмиралы больше озабочены не кризисом флота, а тем, как бы превратить его в перевалочную базу нефти", - считает издание.

[sp2c]

wtf is Kaliningrad and why does NATO want it?

[Gyles84]

*wrinkles nose*

..You smell that?

[oldsoak]

Eh ? About as likely as the Pope becoming a rap star. Its a bit like saying the Russians are secretly planning to take over Portsmouth. It might have been a war scenario from years ago - in the event of total collapse of the USSR etc . No doubt the Russians had similar plans to occupy ports like Portsmouth at one time.
...plus the UK spare a division ? Where from ? We're stretched thinner than a condom. People must think we have lots of them sitting idle.

[bloddyaxe]

Interesting. A multinational Army of around five divisions to invade and conquer Kaliningrad.
I am not surprised if someone makes such plans, but I doubt anyone has the political will to do this.. even Poland p-)

Anyone know the strenght of Russian forces in the Kaliningradskaya oblyast?

I think for such plan to succeed they'd also need some naval assets, and aviation. If the NATO managed to gain naval superiority in the Baltic, Russia would be unable to sustain its forces in Kaliningrad resulting in defeat for them, even if they were facing less numerous or even less advanced forces... Or at least I think that is common sence

[tyovan]

wtf is Kaliningrad and why does NATO want it?

Here's a link to a map mate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kaliningrad_map.PNG

[sp2c]

0w I get it ... kinda makes sense for NATO to want it then :)

mwah never heard of invading it though, I'm sure that there are plans but then again there are probably plans to defend against an alien invasion as well.

pays to be prepared.

[Marmot1]

Well nothing new... I have such a plan from last year.. now I have to call by buddies and next week we start invasion, unfortunatelly our pocket money are low so we have to do this using airsoft guns...

[Cpt Willard]

O **** I must join Polish Army soon . I don't want to miss that show p-)

[He219]

wtf is Kaliningrad and why does NATO want it?
Formerly known as East Prussia.

It's an autonimous economic zone (http://editorial.*****images.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=ImagesSearchState|0|0|30|0|0|0|1|||0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|kaliningrad|0|0|0|0&p=1) and a huge russian military base. That's why they won't give it up.

BMWs, Chevys and H2s are manufactured there ....

<img src=http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50991415.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356154CAC5C096CC030FFA9C30E9B9B114CE8>

A new Hummer vehicle is seen at the automobile plant in Kaliningrad, 24 June 2004. A Russian factory in the Baltic enclave has begun assembling a Hummer vehicles. The fact that cooperation with GM represents the first serious American investment in the region. Assembly of the off-road vehicle is the first in what is seen as a continuing series of undertakings by the giant automaker in Kaliningrad. The agreement on cooperation looks to the production of three other GM models at the plant. The Kaliningrad holding currently produces cars for the Korean firm KIA Motors and the German firm BMW.

[intrinsic]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!

[AVZ]

Hehehe

[mack pl]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!

:lol:

well, well...interesting idea

[Midav]

Part of my family is originally from that area.

Maybe we can get our land and posessions back ;)

But, I won't hold my breath...

[Midav]

wtf is Kaliningrad and why does NATO want it?
Formerly known as East Prussia.

It's an autonimous economic zone (http://editorial.*****images.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=ImagesSearchState|0|0|30|0|0|0|1|||0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|kaliningrad|0|0|0|0&p=1) and a huge russian military base. That's why they won't give it up.

BMWs, Chevys and H2s are manufactured there ....

<img src=http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50991415.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356154CAC5C096CC030FFA9C30E9B9B114CE8>

A new Hummer vehicle is seen at the automobile plant in Kaliningrad, 24 June 2004. A Russian factory in the Baltic enclave has begun assembling a Hummer vehicles. The fact that cooperation with GM represents the first serious American investment in the region. Assembly of the off-road vehicle is the first in what is seen as a continuing series of undertakings by the giant automaker in Kaliningrad. The agreement on cooperation looks to the production of three other GM models at the plant. The Kaliningrad holding currently produces cars for the Korean firm KIA Motors and the German firm BMW.

That Hummer just happenes to be between her legs rofl

It's no coincidence that it ws nicknamed such ;)

[Nizark]

where's permskii? I'm sure he would love to chime in about how the foreign divisions will be slaughtered be the thousands, blah blah blah

[RS_Leo1A5]

The plan involves usage of 2 US divisions, one German and one British plus some independent brigades from other NATO countries (including Poland and Denmark).
It turned into BS at that point.

The German constitution does not allow unprovoked acts of war against other countries.
Our military is for defense (and, in recent years, peace keeping).

[bloddyaxe]

The plan involves usage of 2 US divisions, one German and one British plus some independent brigades from other NATO countries (including Poland and Denmark).
It turned into BS at that point.

The German constitution does not allow unprovoked acts of war against other countries.
Our military is for defense (and, in recent years, peace keeping).

They could make it look like a provoked act of war. Or change the constitution... p-)

[b33f]

The plan involves usage of 2 US divisions, one German and one British plus some independent brigades from other NATO countries (including Poland and Denmark).
It turned into BS at that point.

The German constitution does not allow unprovoked acts of war against other countries.
Our military is for defense (and, in recent years, peace keeping).

They could make it look like a provoked act of war. Or change the constitution... p-)

"Wag the Dog" anyone?

[wholagun]

The plan involves usage of 2 US divisions, one German and one British plus some independent brigades from other NATO countries (including Poland and Denmark).
It turned into BS at that point.

The German constitution does not allow unprovoked acts of war against other countries.
Our military is for defense (and, in recent years, peace keeping).

remeber the supposed Polish sabbatgage of a radio station in Germany?

[aeternum]

wtf is Kaliningrad and why does NATO want it?
Formerly known as East Prussia.

Not quite correct. Its acually the former 'Königsberg'.

[Marmot1]

wtf is Kaliningrad and why does NATO want it?
Formerly known as East Prussia.

Not quite correct. Its acually the former 'Königsberg'.


We call it Królewiec in Poland but Königsberg or Kaliningrad refers to city itself. Whole region is called Kalinningradzkij Oblast in russian Prusy in polish or Ost Preussen(sp?) in German... To make story short until WW2 it was sometimes in Polish hands, sometimes in German, sometimes independent.... but never Russian.

[goldman]

I dont see the point what is so stragic about this place is just above poland, instead of getting closer to middle east they are going further and plus arent US going to open new bases in Bulgara and Romania. So why would they risk WWIII with Russia. Any ways i think the person who wrote this article had a bit of too much Vodka. :)

[martinexsquaddie]

german panzer divison orders stop short of moscow :lol:
if they step off on monday who's going to be able to stop them :D

[wholagun]

I wonder if in 20 years once Poland and Lithuanian are more advanced and better off if Kalingrad will be this hole in the amongst two developed countries. Im curious to know how ppl in Kalingrad would react to this type of senerio.

Isn't Kalingrad shore the area where most of the worlds amber is found?

[NicNZ]

Isn't Kalingrad shore the area where most of the worlds amber is found?

100% pure random question ;)

[Nizark]

I dont see the point what is so stragic about this place is just above poland, instead of getting closer to middle east they are going further and plus arent US going to open new bases in Bulgara and Romania. So why would they risk WWIII with Russia. Any ways i think the person who wrote this article had a bit of too much Vodka. :)

Wordsky!

[Thor]

The russians are paranoid. They need an enemy so bad that they'll invent one.

[RomanS]

hilarious ****

if any country invades Russia Nizark is right, Companies manufacturing body bags will be RICH

stay home people

[Kilgor]

there is some romanian proverb, "he who attacks russian doesnt make it out alive"

[wholagun]

Isn't Kalingrad shore the area where most of the worlds amber is found?

100% pure random question ;)


:hug: I try my best. It's my effort at teaching the masses and doing my part to fight ignorance. Call me the Socrates of this forum, i ask questions you learn.

[Sergei]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!

It will serve as a reminder to rightful owners not to start an invading war next time. :lol:

[Sergei]

I wonder if in 20 years once Poland and Lithuanian are more advanced and better off if Kalingrad will be this hole in the amongst two developed countries. Im curious to know how ppl in Kalingrad would react to this type of senerio.

Isn't Kalingrad shore the area where most of the worlds amber is found?

Why do you think it is a hole? The region is being economically developed as we speak. What do you have against it?

[Oxford]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!

Sure why not. We are all friends now anyway. A few more decades we will be one happy family.

[Oxford]

Prussia - doesn't that mean something like "near Russia"? How many Prussians are even there now? Otto von Bismarck would be most displeased I am sure.

[Baltic]

Prussia - doesn't that mean something like "near Russia"?
No


How many Prussians are even there now?
None. They are all dead. :(

Regarding tactical nuclear weapons, they were in Kaliningrad in 1995 or 1998, but the big international fuss started and russians had removed them. [/code]

[fdt]

Prussia - doesn't that mean something like "near Russia"? How many Prussians are even there now? Otto von Bismarck would be most displeased I am sure.US state of GA is populated by Georgians, Kent by Kent_ucky fried chickens and SussSEX, WessSEX are the home of World's **** industry... No offense, just joking... p-)

[fdt]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!

Sure why not. We are all friends now anyway. A few more decades we will be one happy family.It's a good habit to give away Your propperties, not someone else's.

[Amandil]

Weird, I've been daydreaming about such a scenario at least since I was fifteen. Odd that somebody would actually come out and say something like that fifteen years later.

I wonder what they'd do with it after they took it over? Who would they give it to? Germany, Poland, Lithuania? An independent "New Prussia"? Strange thought.

How many Prussians are even there now?
None. They are all dead.
Or, they've all been relocated within the current borders of Germany (like my wife's great-uncle's wife) or other countries. My ancestors, by contrast, haven't set foot in Prussia since the time of Bismark. I tried to get in during 1993, but that was when the Russians were vacating the Baltic States and filling up the Oblast with soldiers. Nosey tourists like me weren't exactly welcome at the time.

[TacoDelRio]

Any pictures of that chick from ABOVE the knee?

[Rantanplan]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!


Dude, the last thing germany needs is more underdeveloped eastren territories.

[Marmot1]

Weird, I've been daydreaming about such a scenario at least since I was fifteen. Odd that somebody would actually come out and say something like that fifteen years later.

I wonder what they'd do with it after they took it over? Who would they give it to? Germany, Poland, Lithuania? An independent "New Prussia"? Strange thought.

How many Prussians are even there now?
None. They are all dead.
Or, they've all been relocated within the current borders of Germany (like my wife's great-uncle's wife) or other countries. My ancestors, by contrast, haven't set foot in Prussia since the time of Bismark. I tried to get in during 1993, but that was when the Russians were vacating the Baltic States and filling up the Oblast with soldiers. Nosey tourists like me weren't exactly welcome at the time.


Orginal Prussians were nor Slavic nor Germanic, they were rather more Baltic tribe AFAIK, there were several pagan tribes in this area like Pruss, Kurpies, Jatzwings (sorry polish names). They raided northern areas of Poland, so in 1247(?) Polish prince Konrad Mazowiecki "invited" Teutonic Knights who were at this time one of Warior Monks orders like Maltanese, or Templars and resided in Holly Land, after failure of last crusade they were invated to fight with pagans in europe. They took over this terrains and since most of them were germans -germanized whole area (at the beginig many of them were from france belgium denmark switzerland and other areas as well), After conquering Prusses they turned against Poland and began invading and incorporating northern and central provinces of Poland, in 1410 Joint Polish-Lithuanan-Rus forces aided by others (i.e. Tatars) Invaded area and defeated Teutonic Knights and their allies, it is belived to be greatest battle of medieval times (ca.70000 soldiers) Allied forces captured all 47(9) banners of Teutonic army and killed all but one Komturs (Something like generals) including Grand Master. Later teutonic order was weak and i.e. around 1453(?) Polish forces bribed Czechs :-D - defenders of Marienburg (Malbork) and captured capital of Teutonic Order - one of greatest fotresses at this time. Later there were several uprising against German spraking nobles (most peasants were slavic or polish speaking) and in 1525 Teutonic order was dissolved and new Prinnce of Prussia Albreht Hohenzolern pleadged loyality to Poland. This situation was basicaly until end of 18 century when Poland was partitioned. Ater WW1 thia area become part of Weimar Republic (Germany), Ater WW2 part of it was given to poland and second part was annexed by Soviet Union.

[wholagun]

I wonder if in 20 years once Poland and Lithuanian are more advanced and better off if Kalingrad will be this hole in the amongst two developed countries. Im curious to know how ppl in Kalingrad would react to this type of senerio.

Isn't Kalingrad shore the area where most of the worlds amber is found?

Why do you think it is a hole? The region is being economically developed as we speak. What do you have against it?

I have nothing against it, but it is isolated and the I must admit that Polish and Lithuanian economies are much more dynamic and will develop much faster then Kallingrad Enclave. It will be a whole among EU dominated area in that region is what I was trying to get at when i said hole. It is totally surrounded by NATO and EU states.

[khukuri]

Actually its very logical.

Kaliningrad is something or will be something to bitch about. Its not about todays russia or todays nato, its a logical thing when you think of geopolitical issues.

All over the wold and history theres is some factors than can make you predict future issues/conflicts. And all over history theres been one thing for certain, when you have a country divided in two parts or have a remote part, that will beg for conflict when that country wanna become bigger. It will be in russias self interest to reunion kaliningrad with the rest of russia geografically , if not now, later. So you can count that part of the world as a hotbed, if not now as I said later.

Its as logical as theres always be a conflict in kashmir india. You have a group that is ethinically more relate to pakistan. Even if the majorities of pakis in india become india friendly today, theres nothing that sais that a ethnic uprising will come again about hundred years when the political status changes. Its just a question of time. Same thing with the falklands or china/taiwan. just a questionn of time.

For all "probable" conflict any worldwide power/union have some precaussions for. Anything else would be stupid.

[Amandil]

Orginal Prussians were nor Slavic nor Germanic, they were rather more Baltic tribe AFAIK, there were several pagan tribes in this area like Pruss, Kurpies, Jatzwings (sorry polish names). They raided northern areas of Poland, so in 1247(?) Polish prince Konrad Mazowiecki "invited" Teutonic Knights who were at this time one of Warior Monks orders like Maltanese, or Templars and resided in Holly Land, after failure of last crusade they were invated to fight with pagans in europe. They took over this terrains and since most of them were germans -germanized whole area (at the beginig many of them were from france belgium denmark switzerland and other areas as well), After conquering Prusses they turned against Poland and began invading and incorporating northern and central provinces of Poland, in 1410 Joint Polish-Lithuanan-Rus forces aided by others (i.e. Tatars) Invaded area and defeated Teutonic Knights and their allies, it is belived to be greatest battle of medieval times (ca.70000 soldiers) Allied forces captured all 47(9) banners of Teutonic army and killed all but one Komturs (Something like generals) including Grand Master. Later teutonic order was weak and i.e. around 1453(?) Polish forces bribed Czechs :-D - defenders of Marienburg (Malbork) and captured capital of Teutonic Order - one of greatest fotresses at this time. Later there were several uprising against German spraking nobles (most peasants were slavic or polish speaking) and in 1525 Teutonic order was dissolved and new Prinnce of Prussia Albreht Hohenzolern pleadged loyality to Poland. This situation was basicaly until end of 18 century when Poland was partitioned. Ater WW1 thia area become part of Weimar Republic (Germany), Ater WW2 part of it was given to poland and second part was annexed by Soviet Union.
Yes.

[M4ko]

According to Leonid Ivashov, (vice-head of Russian Academy of Geopolitical Problems, ex. head of Dept. of International Military C-peration of Russian Defense Ministry, general-lieutenant ) RAGP has a document that proves that NATO is preparing a scenario of Kaliningrad take over. Title of mentioned document is to be: "Safeguarding of the US Military access to strategic regions of the World". The plan involves usage of 2 US divisions, one German and one British plus some independent brigades from other NATO countries (including Poland and Denmark). Conclusion is that appropriate countermeasures shall be taken quick and serious mode including the relocation of nuclear weapons to Kaliningrad.

:| WTF.... who and what is cooking here?

.
[/quote]


If this proves to be true, then next day you will have full Russian force mobilization into neighboring countries and instant export of Russian arms to its allies/economic partners.

[M4ko]

Actually its very logical.

Kaliningrad is something or will be something to bitch about. Its not about todays russia or todays nato, its a logical thing when you think of geopolitical issues.

All over the wold and history theres is some factors than can make you predict future issues/conflicts. And all over history theres been one thing for certain, when you have a country divided in two parts or have a remote part, that will beg for conflict when that country wanna become bigger. It will be in russias self interest to reunion kaliningrad with the rest of russia geografically , if not now, later. So you can count that part of the world as a hotbed, if not now as I said later.

Its as logical as theres always be a conflict in kashmir india. You have a group that is ethinically more relate to pakistan. Even if the majorities of pakis in india become india friendly today, theres nothing that sais that a ethnic uprising will come again about hundred years when the political status changes. Its just a question of time. Same thing with the falklands or china/taiwan. just a questionn of time.

For all "probable" conflict any worldwide power/union have some precaussions for. Anything else would be stupid.


Kaliningrad is not really part of Russian territory, its just a piece of land that was taken over by Russians and where some Russians have relocated to. So they wont try to reunite with Russia.

[M4ko]

I dont bielive that Kaliningrad holds any strategic value to the west but it sure does hold a value to Russian. From there they can attack most of europe if a good oportunity comes.

[Marmot1]

Actually its very logical.

Kaliningrad is something or will be something to bitch about. Its not about todays russia or todays nato, its a logical thing when you think of geopolitical issues.

All over the wold and history theres is some factors than can make you predict future issues/conflicts. And all over history theres been one thing for certain, when you have a country divided in two parts or have a remote part, that will beg for conflict when that country wanna become bigger. It will be in russias self interest to reunion kaliningrad with the rest of russia geografically , if not now, later. So you can count that part of the world as a hotbed, if not now as I said later.

Its as logical as theres always be a conflict in kashmir india. You have a group that is ethinically more relate to pakistan. Even if the majorities of pakis in india become india friendly today, theres nothing that sais that a ethnic uprising will come again about hundred years when the political status changes. Its just a question of time. Same thing with the falklands or china/taiwan. just a questionn of time.

For all "probable" conflict any worldwide power/union have some precaussions for. Anything else would be stupid.


Kaliningrad is not really part of Russian territory, its just a piece of land that was taken over by Russians and where some Russians have relocated to. So they wont try to reunite with Russia.

Well we say in Poland that "Russia claim every part of land on which anytime in history russian soldier pissed at least once" so you might expect their mole work in future... Our inteligence recently alerted that russian spies increased their activity in Poland. Same situation happened in Germany and yesterday I have heard similar statement on Lithuania. This week we had a "little" espionage scandal in Poland - one polish citizen arested and one russian "diplomat" expelled as a result....

[wholagun]

Well we say in Poland that "Russia claim every part of land on which anytime in history russian soldier pissed at least once" so you might expect their mole work in future... Our inteligence recently alerted that russian spies increased their activity in Poland. Same situation happened in Germany and yesterday I have heard similar statement on Lithuania. This week we had a "little" espionage scandal in Poland - one polish citizen arested and one russian "diplomat" expelled as a result....

really - I ddin't hear about this


@ lenin - at the smae time far off isolated provinces have tried to break off from their home country.

[M4ko]

Actually its very logical.

Kaliningrad is something or will be something to bitch about. Its not about todays russia or todays nato, its a logical thing when you think of geopolitical issues.

All over the wold and history theres is some factors than can make you predict future issues/conflicts. And all over history theres been one thing for certain, when you have a country divided in two parts or have a remote part, that will beg for conflict when that country wanna become bigger. It will be in russias self interest to reunion kaliningrad with the rest of russia geografically , if not now, later. So you can count that part of the world as a hotbed, if not now as I said later.

Its as logical as theres always be a conflict in kashmir india. You have a group that is ethinically more relate to pakistan. Even if the majorities of pakis in india become india friendly today, theres nothing that sais that a ethnic uprising will come again about hundred years when the political status changes. Its just a question of time. Same thing with the falklands or china/taiwan. just a questionn of time.

For all "probable" conflict any worldwide power/union have some precaussions for. Anything else would be stupid.


Kaliningrad is not really part of Russian territory, its just a piece of land that was taken over by Russians and where some Russians have relocated to. So they wont try to reunite with Russia.

Well we say in Poland that "Russia claim every part of land on which anytime in history russian soldier pissed at least once" so you might expect their mole work in future... Our inteligence recently alerted that russian spies increased their activity in Poland. Same situation happened in Germany and yesterday I have heard similar statement on Lithuania. This week we had a "little" espionage scandal in Poland - one polish citizen arested and one russian "diplomat" expelled as a result....


Yea i heard about spy incident. Too bad Poland started this whole Poland-Russia hate issue. Haters ussualy lose. Funny that "Homo Sovieticus" actually means "Same Soviet", Poles are really smart at commie jokes.

[oregongrunt]

Isn't that where the German city of Danzig was?

[Brozozo]

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50991415.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356154CAC5C096CC030FFA9C30E9B9B114CE8Helllooooooo! Those are beautiful, the legs I mean, fak the car...

[Marmot1]

Actually its very logical.

Kaliningrad is something or will be something to bitch about. Its not about todays russia or todays nato, its a logical thing when you think of geopolitical issues.

All over the wold and history theres is some factors than can make you predict future issues/conflicts. And all over history theres been one thing for certain, when you have a country divided in two parts or have a remote part, that will beg for conflict when that country wanna become bigger. It will be in russias self interest to reunion kaliningrad with the rest of russia geografically , if not now, later. So you can count that part of the world as a hotbed, if not now as I said later.

Its as logical as theres always be a conflict in kashmir india. You have a group that is ethinically more relate to pakistan. Even if the majorities of pakis in india become india friendly today, theres nothing that sais that a ethnic uprising will come again about hundred years when the political status changes. Its just a question of time. Same thing with the falklands or china/taiwan. just a questionn of time.

For all "probable" conflict any worldwide power/union have some precaussions for. Anything else would be stupid.


Kaliningrad is not really part of Russian territory, its just a piece of land that was taken over by Russians and where some Russians have relocated to. So they wont try to reunite with Russia.

Well we say in Poland that "Russia claim every part of land on which anytime in history russian soldier pissed at least once" so you might expect their mole work in future... Our inteligence recently alerted that russian spies increased their activity in Poland. Same situation happened in Germany and yesterday I have heard similar statement on Lithuania. This week we had a "little" espionage scandal in Poland - one polish citizen arested and one russian "diplomat" expelled as a result....


Yea i heard about spy incident. Too bad Poland started this whole Poland-Russia hate issue. Haters ussualy lose. Funny that "Homo Sovieticus" actually means "Same Soviet", Poles are really smart at commie jokes.

Well we do not have interest in hateing each other. Unfortunatelly russia try to piss off Poland all the time. First they stated that Yalta was good for Poland and brought us freedom... then they clasified murdering of 40000 of Polish officers by NKVD in 1940 as regular crime and refused to recognise it as a genocide... which allowed them to extinguish their so called "investigation" without pointing those responsible for it (Stalin, Beria & Co.) then they refused to give us investigation documents (2/3 of it) claiming that they are top secret (After 65 years !!!). Now it seems that russian spy or ex-spy (if there exist something like ex-spy ;-) ) was innvolved in atempted economic take over of Polish main oil rafinery which provide most of Polish oil. So on the other hand we don't want to be in debt and we do our mole work trying to undermine Russian influence in former soviet republics - vide Ukraine. Problem is that ppl on both sides do not hate each other... goverments do not like each other, but it's 1000 years old history :-D

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Isn't that where the German city of Danzig was?

Nope, Danzig is now Gdansk in Poland and the city was Polish for most of the time of it's existence (since the XIIth century, it was German between 1793-1945)

[Marmot1]

Isn't that where the German city of Danzig was?

Polish city... of Gdańsk... most of time in history it was Polish city... even name is slavic, anyway Gdansk is in Pomorze Gdańskie region not in Prussia

[perdurabo]

Roman Kaliningrad was given to Russia only for about 99 years or something like that and afther this time there should be referendum or international talks what to do (if i remember corectly international status of this area) so it is possible to change owner of this land without a single bullet shot p-)

[tony6]

Yea i heard about spy incident. Too bad Poland started this whole Poland-Russia hate issue. Haters ussualy lose. Funny that "Homo Sovieticus" actually means "Same Soviet", Poles are really smart at commie jokes.
So You also think that Katyn forest murder was not genocide?
Or maybe You also think that Yalta was good for Poland?
Thank You very much, dude. I pass.

[Amandil]

Relax, good gentlemen.


anyway Gdansk is in Pomorze Gdańskie region not in Prussia
When it was under German control, Danzig was in "West Prussia." Whether or not that's really "Prussia" is another issue entirely. Coincidentally, my mother's "low German" dialect is from the Vistula Delta region.


Roman Kaliningrad was given to Russia only for about 99 years or something like that
"Roman"???

[mack pl]

Roman Kaliningrad was given to Russia only for about 99 years or something like that
"Roman"???

I think Perdurabo was talking to RomanRussianArms ;)

[khukuri]

Oh... What ment wasnt kaliningrad wants reunion with russia, I ment RUSSIA wants reunion with kaliningrad, geografically, "sooner or later".

[Oxford]

Russia will have a jolly time of it if they try to make that area heavily fortifed.

For starters, they are already surrounded there in Karlingrad/Konigsberg.

[M4ko]

Russia will have a jolly time of it if they try to make that area heavily fortifed.

For starters, they are already surrounded there in Karlingrad/Konigsberg.

nothing to fortify its already a one big military base.

[M4ko]

Yep Poland wouldve fully reconstructed it self after WW2, not likely. Besides that, other two incidents the "genocide of Poles" which i only heard about it and havent really researched much, and spies in Balkans have just recently surfaced. I was really surprized when i found out that Poles hate Russia about 3 years ago. I always thought of Poles as our freinds. So im guessing the main hatred comes from "occupation" of Poland by Soviets. Dumb reason to me since we never looked down on you after ww2. Since I cant fint a substantial reason for this hatred bs, i must say that its been artificialy created by your government and other forces (Bzejinskiy), mixing a feel for lost Livonian Empire that Poland has been trying to get back since WW1.

You guys think too much of your selves but in fact you really dont hold any original/unique value: your backed up militarily by US and size of your country is very small. I dont think you can get an emipre going any time soon. Americans will discard of you as soon as there is no need for you anymore. But for now you hold a very strategic position for them against Russia.

[callous]

How did you ever get into my country mako? All the Poles have wanted is freedom. It is something they struggled to achieve for along time. I was glad to see Poland free itself from Communist oppression.

[wholagun]

Yep Poland wouldve fully reconstructed it self after WW2, not likely. Besides that, other two incidents the "genocide of Poles" which i only heard about it and havent really researched much, and spies in Balkans have just recently surfaced. I was really surprized when i found out that Poles hate Russia about 3 years ago. I always thought of Poles as our freinds. So im guessing the main hatred comes from "occupation" of Poland by Soviets. Dumb reason to me since we never looked down on you after ww2. Since I cant fint a substantial reason for this hatred bs, i must say that its been artificialy created by your government and other forces (Bzejinskiy), mixing a feel for lost Livonian Empire that Poland has been trying to get back since WW1.

You guys think too much of your selves but in fact you really dont hold any original/unique value: your backed up militarily by US and size of your country is very small. I dont think you can get an emipre going any time soon. Americans will discard of you as soon as there is no need for you anymore. But for now you hold a very strategic position for them against Russia.

wow. What Russian nationalistic site or paper did you get this from?

Who said we want an empire? We are more then happy to kick your ass economically. Very feasilbe the min you take oil out of the equasion.

Ah now there is no need to be jelous - Poland is a democrtic country where anyone can crticise the government and speak freely. Sadly i can't say the same for Russia - abit of back peddeling there by the government

Thanks for admitting you want an empire. Its no secret that Russia messed around in Ukrainian elections the first time around. You created one hell of a mess, and the west needed to clean it up the second time around.

Take you empty threats elsewhere - saying we are hiding behind the US. Unlike Russia which is finding it harder and harder to find friends, we have many.

Your post was full of nationalistic rethoric and not objective at all.

[Oxford]

I do so hope that Russia joins the EU. They are part of the family. Why do they feel the endless need to stay out in the cold. It just doesn't make sense.

I think the Russian people have suffered enough. It isn't an issue of East/West. It is one of Europe or not Europe.

I think Russia and Turkey belong to part of Greater Europe. I hope their Governments are able to have the vision needed to see past the here and now.

Another European conflict is totally unnecessary. What Europe needs is unity. Justice and liberty for the people. Peace and prosperity.

The real enemy aren't nation states or even terrorists. The real enemy are the multinationals that drive down standards of living. That is the war of the future.

[soma]

hilarious ****

if any country invades Russia Nizark is right, Companies manufacturing body bags will be RICH

stay home people

Same with the dvd companies, all that Russian humour is going to take up hours of footage. Especially that great i MOtheRlaND! one.

[wholagun]

I do so hope that Russia joins the EU. They are part of the family. Why do they feel the endless need to stay out in the cold. It just doesn't make sense.

I think the Russian people have suffered enough. It isn't an issue of East/West. It is one of Europe or not Europe.

I think Russia and Turkey belong to part of Greater Europe. I hope their Governments are able to have the vision needed to see past the here and now.

Another European conflict is totally unnecessary. What Europe needs is unity. Justice and liberty for the people. Peace and prosperity.

The real enemy aren't nation states or even terrorists. The real enemy are the multinationals that drive down standards of living. That is the war of the future.

Russia has a long way to go if it ever wants to join EU.

[Thor]

I think EU will do a u-turn pretty soon.. Things have gone too fast already. It's more important to take care of necessary internal reforms and efficiency issues rather than an extreme expansion.

Russia will never join.

Turkey might join - but probably won't.

[Sergei]

Isn't that where the German city of Danzig was?

Nope, Danzig is now Gdansk in Poland and the city was Polish for most of the time of it's existence (since the XIIth century, it was German between 1793-1945)

Haha good ****. If Poland is to start some **** over Kaliningrad then it is a rightful thing for Germany to demand back all the lands east of Oder that now belong to Poland which previously belonged to Germany. As well as Poland have every right to demand all the lands of Western Ukraine and Belorus annexed from Poland by USSR in 1939.
Didn't we have enough wars already on the european continent? :roll:

P.S. I also forgot that Czech Republic can jump in on the issue since in 1938, Poland got some lands from Czechoslovakia as well.

If you stir the imperialist history of 1939 where no country was clean it will stink to high heavens.

[Sergei]

I do so hope that Russia joins the EU. They are part of the family. Why do they feel the endless need to stay out in the cold. It just doesn't make sense.

I think the Russian people have suffered enough. It isn't an issue of East/West. It is one of Europe or not Europe.

I think Russia and Turkey belong to part of Greater Europe. I hope their Governments are able to have the vision needed to see past the here and now.

Another European conflict is totally unnecessary. What Europe needs is unity. Justice and liberty for the people. Peace and prosperity.

The real enemy aren't nation states or even terrorists. The real enemy are the multinationals that drive down standards of living. That is the war of the future.

Yeah, right, tell that to Brzezinski megalomaniac. Read his book "The Grand Chessboard". Everything that is happening in the world is from that book chapter by chapter. I doubt Ukraine needs to join EU too. The economy will be hit big time.

[Tream]

Oi lads! To all of You.
I'm new on this forum as You can see. I am a Pole from the eastern side (just 200km from Kaliningrad). I'd like to welcome all of You (it doesn't matter what nationality are You anyway). Oh! I almost forgot, don't be mad at my poor English...

So, let's get to the point.
Killing 40000 officers and Polish intelligence WAS a genocide without no doubt. I wonder, how would West European countries react, if Russia would have denied, that murdering by NKVD their citizens was only a normal crime, as their historians want to see it...

Kaliningrad is a very strong military region for Russia. I would say, whole Kaliningrad is a military base to make excursions to the West.
As far as I am concerned, it is highly strategic region both for NATO and Russia. There is sense in building a plan to take over Kaliningrad, but I think this plan was made for the time, when Russia will get mad on Europe (as we saw that with Ukraine), and then it would make sense.

Well thanks for reading this...
When I'll think of something new, i'll get You informed.

[mack pl]

P.S. I also forgot that Czech Republic can jump in on the issue since in 1938, Poland got some lands from Czechoslovakia as well.


:lol:

not really, coz we give them back this land after WWII ;)

PS.
in 1938 we take only this part of Czechoslovakia which should belong to us :lol:

PS2.
Pozdro Tream ;)

[fdt]

Wow. You've produced a 5 pages of discussion on a topic that in fact is an obvious joke. I am amazed.

http://www.twgraphics.biz/portfolio/images/imagedesign/tabloid.jpg

Maybe we should discuss this next... huh? Waddaya say?

[mack pl]

http://www.twgraphics.biz/portfolio/images/imagedesign/tabloid.jpg



rofl

[Marmot1]

P.S. I also forgot that Czech Republic can jump in on the issue since in 1938, Poland got some lands from Czechoslovakia as well.


:lol:

not really, coz we give them back this land after WWII ;)

PS.
in 1938 we take only this part of Czechoslovakia which should belong to us :lol:

PS2.
Pozdro Tream ;)

Actually it was one rather small city and couple of surrounding villages... which were taken in the same way as we did in 1938 by Czechs in 1920... so we reclaimed what was previously our.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Isn't that where the German city of Danzig was?

Nope, Danzig is now Gdansk in Poland and the city was Polish for most of the time of it's existence (since the XIIth century, it was German between 1793-1945)

Haha good ****. If Poland is to start some **** over Kaliningrad then it is a rightful thing for Germany to demand back all the lands east of Oder that now belong to Poland which previously belonged to Germany. As well as Poland have every right to demand all the lands of Western Ukraine and Belorus annexed from Poland by USSR in 1939.
Didn't we have enough wars already on the european continent? :roll:

P.S. I also forgot that Czech Republic can jump in on the issue since in 1938, Poland got some lands from Czechoslovakia as well.

If you stir the imperialist history of 1939 where no country was clean it will stink to high heavens.

I was talking about Gdansk being a Polish city, not Kaliningrad.

[Baltic]

In ~ 1970 Russian communist party decided to increase number of Russians in Lithuania and tried to join Kaliningrad to Lithuanian SSR. Our communist party, academy of sciences and other bright people spend a lot of time thinking reasons why they should not do this... :lol:
Must say I am really happy that Kaliningrad is not a part of Lithuania. :)

[Tream]

In ~ 1970 Russian communist party decided to increase number of Russians in Lithuania and tried to join Kaliningrad to Lithuanian SSR. Our communist party, academy of sciences and other bright people spend a lot of time thinking reasons why they should not do this...
Must say I am really happy that Kaliningrad is not a part of Lithuania.
Why are You happy? Maybe You would have more land by now....
Lithuania was an SSR, so it wouldn't be so bad to take Kaliningrad, and then get independent....

[muede]

Word (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kaliningrad++AIDS&btnG=Google+Search)

:roll:

Like all places occupied, taken over and inhabited by population transfers by USSR / Russia after ww2, Kaliningrad is and remains one of the worst **** holes of the planet, ridden with poverty, corruption, crime and disease.

:|

[fdt]

Sure. You've been there, you've seen this, you were making business there, you know the language and You of course spoke to the people living there... I assume that You did it all as You make Your statement that strong manner. :roll:

Kaliningrad is not Moscow nor Petersburg, but as for Russian standard is above average town.

[Lokos]

Poverty? Sure.

Crime and corruption? Are you implying that the two are more endemic in Kaliningrad than in Western Europe inherently?

Disease? Where did you pop this little gem out of?

So, of the four words you used to qualify Kaliningrad, *one* could *sort of* be argued to be truthful. Of course, relatively speaking, the worst poverty in Eastern Europe is still comparative wealth, when one looks at Africa, South Asia etc.

Of course, Americans/Western Europeans like to believe that their way of life is NORMAL. That the level of opulence they have an apparently 'inherent right to' is NORMAL. When it is clear that history and precedent show that it is on the back of the rest of the world that your 'normality' rests.

Each Western child consumes seven times as many resources as an average Indian child. That's some food for thought.

You're, analogically speaking, a thief blaming victims of theft for their predicament.

Lokos

[Lokos]

Oh, and muede, just FYI:

You made the case that 'all of the places the USSR occupied/transferred populations to and from are riddled with... crime' (to paraphrase your words).

Of course, explaining to you that crime was a miniscule social problem in Communist states when compared to the problems the West faced in tackling crime, wouldn't dent your ironclad argument here at all, would it?

Lokos

[muede]

Weekly, people i personally know, friends (including russians and half-russians) and family visit there (Russia in general), foreigners and russians alike and this is what they all tell me.

Personally ive had plenty of opportunities to visit Russia and other former "soviet republics" but ive refused / passed, as personally i take no joy of seeing people suffering and living like animals basicly. (2-3 families of 10-20 (sum) people living in single flat and so on..)

I know of what im talking about, but after reading your comments its clear to me that you guys dont have the slightest clue.

/end of discussion.

Over and out.

[Tream]

Oi lads!
Muede, what are You talking about!! I've been to Russia several times. You've made here a ****tytalk! Please don't refuse next time and see, how Your opinions are untrue or STFU right now, cause You don't know nothing about it...
Western countries with their poverty districts aren't any better, and the crime rate is skyhigh on the West.
STFU yourself or go to Russia...

[wholagun]

Oi lads!
Muede, what are You talking about!! I've been to Russia several times. You've made here a ****tytalk! Please don't refuse next time and see, how Your opinions are untrue or STFU right now, cause You don't know nothing about it...
Western countries with their poverty districts aren't any better, and the crime rate is skyhigh on the West.
STFU yourself or go to Russia...

spokoine spokoine :petting:

[Tream]

Okay, maybe i'm too pissed off, but I live nearby and... ehhh Ya know this is my beginnig here. :P

[Baltic]

In ~ 1970 Russian communist party decided to increase number of Russians in Lithuania and tried to join Kaliningrad to Lithuanian SSR. Our communist party, academy of sciences and other bright people spend a lot of time thinking reasons why they should not do this...
Must say I am really happy that Kaliningrad is not a part of Lithuania.
Why are You happy? Maybe You would have more land by now....
Lithuania was an SSR, so it wouldn't be so bad to take Kaliningrad, and then get independent....

We would not have any independence at all. Look what problems Latvia has with russian speaking minority. Or Moldova and Transdnistria... :roll:

Kaliningrad itself is not a bad place at all. "Universal" is the best club in town, with the hottest chicks. woot

[Tream]

We would not have any independence at all. Look what problems Latvia has with russian speaking minority. Or Moldova and Transdnistria...
Maybe I'm stupid but what is Transdnistria, never heard of that one before....
Maybe You are right, Russian minority would be Russian mayority, never thought like that before...

[Baltic]

We would not have any independence at all. Look what problems Latvia has with russian speaking minority. Or Moldova and Transdnistria...
Maybe I'm stupid but what is Transdnistria, never heard of that one before....
Maybe You are right, Russian minority would be Russian mayority, never thought like that before...

Pridniestrovie... Former part of Moldova. They had a wor in 1992. From now they still live in communism there.

http://president-pmr.org/ :)

[M1A2U2]

Germany was provoked when Russia took it from them.

[perdurabo]

Relax, good gentlemen.


anyway Gdansk is in Pomorze Gdańskie region not in Prussia
When it was under German control, Danzig was in "West Prussia." Whether or not that's really "Prussia" is another issue entirely. Coincidentally, my mother's "low German" dialect is from the Vistula Delta region.


Roman Kaliningrad was given to Russia only for about 99 years or something like that
"Roman"???
yes i was talking to Permski
as for "owning" this region its complicated but basicly there was small "nation" Prussians ethnicaly connected more to Lithuanians od Estonians than Poles later in XII century one of Polish diuks called Teutonic order(mainly germans but also knights from other western countrys) for support but they rebbeled and created country we made union with Lithuanians their prince Jagiello married our queen we won few wars and Prussia become part of Polish Lithuanian Commonwelth but when we had problems with Sweedes Cossacs Russians and Turks they become independent and that is how Prussia came to power....

Didn't we have enough wars already on the european continent?


AMEN Sergiey
Of course i wan't to visit Ukraine Lwów, Kamieniec Podolski etc but we don't want it back, we shouldnt move borders now, we dont need more wars here, too much Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian Czech....slavic blood was spilt here.

[Marmot1]

Germany was provoked when Russia took it from them.


Who provoked who?!!!

[Rantanplan]

Germany was provoked when Russia took it from them.


Who provoked who?!!!

please don't response to his posts

[M4ko]

Yep Poland wouldve fully reconstructed it self after WW2, not likely. Besides that, other two incidents the "genocide of Poles" which i only heard about it and havent really researched much, and spies in Balkans have just recently surfaced. I was really surprized when i found out that Poles hate Russia about 3 years ago. I always thought of Poles as our freinds. So im guessing the main hatred comes from "occupation" of Poland by Soviets. Dumb reason to me since we never looked down on you after ww2. Since I cant fint a substantial reason for this hatred bs, i must say that its been artificialy created by your government and other forces (Bzejinskiy), mixing a feel for lost Livonian Empire that Poland has been trying to get back since WW1.

You guys think too much of your selves but in fact you really dont hold any original/unique value: your backed up militarily by US and size of your country is very small. I dont think you can get an emipre going any time soon. Americans will discard of you as soon as there is no need for you anymore. But for now you hold a very strategic position for them against Russia.

wow. What Russian nationalistic site or paper did you get this from?

Who said we want an empire? We are more then happy to kick your ass economically. Very feasilbe the min you take oil out of the equasion.

Ah now there is no need to be jelous - Poland is a democrtic country where anyone can crticise the government and speak freely. Sadly i can't say the same for Russia - abit of back peddeling there by the government

Thanks for admitting you want an empire. Its no secret that Russia messed around in Ukrainian elections the first time around. You created one hell of a mess, and the west needed to clean it up the second time around.

Take you empty threats elsewhere - saying we are hiding behind the US. Unlike Russia which is finding it harder and harder to find friends, we have many.

Your post was full of nationalistic rethoric and not objective at all.


Why do Poles keep posting what might have happened if it was so and not so, or post stuff that doesnt even exist?

Why WOULD you take out oil out of Russian economy its THERE becuase we HAVE it, yea lets just OMIT that fact taht Russia has oil and call Poland economicaly superrior to RUssia, ur contry is still puny along with its economy. Just becuase youve adapted wester style of economy while Russia had to totaly change it economic structure means nothing in the long run. And we are not jelous of your democracy, we dont need your democracy. And our freedome of speech is just fine i persnonaly have no problem with it. Radical antigovernmentals SHOULD be scilenced even though alot of them arent. And we might have Emperial thinking but we have a alot of reasons for it dont you think? And Russia meddling with Ukranian affairs is totaly understandable why would want our neighbor have closer relationship with our enemies than us? It didnt work out as well, its ok not end of the world. Freinds we have plenty, why would you say harder and harder to find any? We are freinds with Germany (not official allies though) Freinds with most of Middle East, Freinds with half of Asia.

Where did I threaten you? (Master of make bielive) I simply said that your country has no muscles to do anything significant. And if you take out support of US you are just a spot on the map like Gorbochev's birth mark.

When this is all over we should put Bzejinskiy on a stake through his ass and tell everybody it was an accident, he fell on it himself.

[tony6]

Aaahhh...that must have hurt.


And Russia meddling with Ukranian affairs is totaly understandable why would want our neighbor have closer relationship with our enemies than us?
So we are Your enemy?

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

When this is all over we should put Bzejinskiy on a stake through his ass and tell everybody it was an accident, he fell on it himself.

Why you're always talking about Brzezinski? He means almost nothing in Poland and doesn't have any influence neither on Polish goverment nor people.

[M4ko]

Aaahhh...that must have hurt.


And Russia meddling with Ukranian affairs is totaly understandable why would want our neighbor have closer relationship with our enemies than us?
So we are Your enemy?

I wasnt talking about Poland here, that whole issue is beyond Poland.

[M4ko]

When this is all over we should put Bzejinskiy on a stake through his ass and tell everybody it was an accident, he fell on it himself.

Why you're always talking about Brzezinski? He means almost nothing in Poland and doesn't have any influence neither on Polish goverment nor people.

Bzejinski has a good influence in US foreign affairs, he is Polish, US has large influence over Poland.

[Drako]

I really don't know if I should laugh or cry after reading all those posts... For sure I learned many new things, like:
- I live in German city of Gdansk
- Kaliningrad is the center of high-level life
- Berzezinski is my guru (he might be... but who is he? :lol:)
- Poland wants to be an empire. Go Wielka Rzeczpospolita (http://www.wielkarzeczpospolita.net)! You have revealed our misterious plan for ruling the world. Here http://www.wielkarzeczpospolita.net/img/mapa_big.jpg is our strategic map (red color = new Polish lands).

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tony6]

M4ko, my friend:
You have to admit that "this small country" has overplayed Your "big empire" like a schoolboy in Ukraine ;)
It's not the military power - it's politics, dude :D

[M4ko]

I really don't know if I should laugh or cry after reading all those posts... For sure I learned many new things, like:
- I live in German city of Gdansk
- Kaliningrad is the center of high-level life
- Berzezinski is my guru (he might be... but who is he? :lol:)
- Poland wants to be an empire. Go &lt;a href="http://www.wielkarzeczpospolita.net"> Wielka Rzeczpospolita&lt;/a>! You have revealed our misterious plan for ruling the world. Here http://www.wielkarzeczpospolita.net/img/mapa_big.jpg is our strategic map (red color = new Polish lands).

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Drako, that is only my opinion that Poland wants to bring back Livonia judging by how you guys are acting. And also from reading how Polish were surprised when Germans attacked them while they had a mindset to acquire Germany for themselves (not at that time but tahts what was supposedly planned)

[Drako]

And also from reading how Polish were surprised when Germans attacked them while they had a mindset to acquire Germany for themselves (not at that time but tahts what was supposedly planned)

Yesterday Germany, today Kaliningrad, tomorrow whole world! :lol: :lol: In no time you'll be within our borders M4ko, so better start learning polish language :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Btw. what is that book you take info from? I'm missing a good read :)

[tony6]

And also from reading how Polish were surprised when Germans attacked them while they had a mindset to acquire Germany for themselves (not at that time but tahts what was supposedly planned)
Good one.

Sister! 20 mg valium immediately!

[M1A2U2]

Germany was provoked when Russia took it from them.


Who provoked who?!!!
no idea

[promillo]

Give it back to the rightful owners GERMANY!!!!


NOOOOOOO! We dont want it. We have to pay enough to reassemble the Ostzone.

[wholagun]

ok fine keep oil as part of your economy, we still have more GDP per capita then Russia.

Have your land mass, we'll have our economy.

Look at Germany or Spain to a lesser degree - they are both big economic players and relativly small countries. They are not irrelavent and are rahther important in international trade.
I used spain as an example b/c it has simular population 40 million.

wow Russians on this forum seem to be living in a world of their own. they're still see reality though 1950s lense when they had a huge powreful modern army. Lets face it today Russia isn't what it use to be and you guys are hitting way above your weight - G8 yeah no way G7.

[fdt]

Ladies, gentlemen, girlie men and supermen... This thread has reached the edge of parody. As I wrote, my initial post was about the nonsense idea of NATO invading Russian enclave of Kaliningrad. I thought that this idea is obvious and doesn't require explaining. Apparently I was wrong.

Then I would like to ask ALL of You to stop posting in this thread. This is going to nowhere as all I could see here are Polish, Russian, German prejudices, American, British etc... ignorance over the issue and lots of ego pumping on all sides...

As a founder of this thread I must ask Hood to give it a mercy lock.

http://www.geocities.com/mumiy2troll/zipup.JPG