National guard and reserve troops need to stop complaining

[jizzmonkey]

As an acvtive duty troop serving with a lot of reserve and national gaurdsmen, I'm really getting tired of the political ****storm they are causing because they are getting activated and sent on deployments for 18months. As an active duty soldier, I understand that a consequence of my choice to join the army means that when I least expect it, I will probably go to war, wether I agree with it or not I knew the facts before I joined (at least I thought I did).
What is pissing me off is they want the government to make up the difference in pay they normally get in their civilian jobs.
-Sorry you had to leave you cushy job at wall street where you made a **** load of money, and now you are here making what I make.

WELCOME TO MY WORLD, NOW STOP YOUR BITCHING!!!!

[Ratamacue]

You sign the dotted line, congratulations, it doesn't matter whether you think you deserve the pay difference. You're property of the US government whenever the US government wants you.

[Beowulf]

3. Don't post threads with TITLES IN ALL CAPS.
thanks
-b

[...]

It is the American Serviceman's God given right to complain. Talking to the media, however, is a different can of worms.

[Beowulf]

there used to be a great system in place for long deployments of reservists, called perstempo/ hi tempo days. When deployments exceed x number of days the soldier is given a certain amount added to base pay......of course they suspended that program just before OEF.....bastards, I woulda made a butt ton of money.

[marktigger]

If their mobilisation has been anything like our reservists have had its been shambolic. Incorrect pay the mobilising authority not taking responsibility and reserves being treated worse than their regular counter parts they have every right to moan.
I think 18months in Iraq Is way to long and it shows with your troops we're doing 6 months at most then back to UK both regular and reserve

[Apogee]

We've got lots of NG pulling security around here, and they do a helluva job. And I can't really say that I've ever heard them complain. But you're complaint is still valid.

[usa320]

I agree...too many kids signed up for the army figuring it would get them free college and only take up a weekend a month or whatever....what they forgot is the true purpose of the NG/Reserves, which of course is to supplement the main army should they come up short.

[StarvingStudent47]

I'm not gonna address the issue of Reservists, but I'm curious about one thing. I was always under the impression that the purpose of the National Guard was to keep a military force at home, "just in case," even when the full strength of our military was deployed overseas. It kinda goes along with the name "National Guard." So I was very surprised when I first heard that National Guard units were headed to Iraq.

Was I incorrect in my assumption? Have National Guard units been deployed overseas before?

[jlanni]

there were very few deployed in vietnam thats why durring vietnam every one and their mother was volunteering to go in the guard cause they knew they had very slim chances of geting deployed... (::cough:: president bush::couch::)... but these days the traditional role of the national guard is no more lol

[Dmitri]

So what's up with the regular army bitching and complaining when their deployment was getting over 6 months then??? You know, 18 months is a damn long time, my unit will probably get mobilized next March, and I'm not too happy about missing 2 years of college, but hey, if it wasn't for us, you butt would stay there forever.

[wyrm_142]

I agree...too many kids signed up for the army figuring it would get them free college and only take up a weekend a month or whatever....what they forgot is the true purpose of the NG/Reserves, which of course is to supplement the main army should they come up short.

Totally - this is going to sound extremely sterotypical:
Your average guard guy either did it for school, or got off Active Duty and missed the bro's so he/she joined the local unit.

However, I really think / feel - that there is going to be a huge retention issue with the guard / reserve side of the house - partially due to all the people whinning, but also due to the amount of deployments (and length).

Using myself as an example:
On AD (four years on active) I deployed for 1 120 day TDY (97), since joining the guard in '98 I've been activated twice (90 day deployment post 11 sept, with a home station extention to total 270) and last March (1 year with a 6 month deployment that I'm currently on). I also went to Turkey for a summer - but that was my own choice (summer break, earn 8000$) - so of the 5 years I've been in the guard, I've been deployed for a year of it. Granted I'm in a critical AFSC - and I don't mind much, and I'm not whinning.

If my situtation was different, say I had a family, or had a decent civy job - I'd be having second thoughts about staying with the guard. As it is, I'm going to milk this as long as I can.

wyrm

[tthiel]

Thats how it was sold to them.


I agree...too many kids signed up for the army figuring it would get them free college and only take up a weekend a month or whatever....what they forgot is the true purpose of the NG/Reserves, which of course is to supplement the main army should they come up short.

[StarvingStudent47]

Thats how it was sold to them.


I agree...too many kids signed up for the army figuring it would get them free college and only take up a weekend a month or whatever....what they forgot is the true purpose of the NG/Reserves, which of course is to supplement the main army should they come up short.

This is true. I graduated from high school in 1999. The military recruiters who came to my high school talked about the G.I. Bill more than anything else. Second up was "you get to do lots of fun things like rappel out of helicopters." They rarely talked about protecting national security or anything like that.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well what about the National Guards and Reservist's that are getting paid the wrong amount and not getting paid on the propper days they are supposed to be getting paid on. I'd f*cking bitch n whine too...even though you are in a ****ty situation and away from home that money HAS to be in the bank..They have spouse's/wife's/kid's that depend on them still even though they are gone away to war. They need to be paid the right amount and on time...its amazing that politicians have no problems getting there checks..If it was any other civilian jon there would be lawsuits out the asshole

[James]

I'm not gonna address the issue of Reservists, but I'm curious about one thing. I was always under the impression that the purpose of the National Guard was to keep a military force at home, "just in case," even when the full strength of our military was deployed overseas. It kinda goes along with the name "National Guard." So I was very surprised when I first heard that National Guard units were headed to Iraq.

Was I incorrect in my assumption? Have National Guard units been deployed overseas before?

The NG has been deployed overseas before, most notably during the World Wars.

The 29th Infantry Division, which went ashore on Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944, was a National Guard Divison. MOst of those soldiers had been on active duty for more than two years before they entered combat.

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't know how many states implemented the Stop Loss after every deployment because my state does. Utah has the highest NG and reservists deploy oversea more than any state in the nation.

[front]

Abrams Doctrine.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/978175.asp

"The Army National Guard and Army Reserve are mobilized in numbers not seen since World War II. And reservists are either staying away longer than their families ever imagined or they’re coming home in body bags. We can’t wage a large-scale conflict without them, thanks to a Vietnam-era policy—a strategic check-and-balance—established to prevent politicians from waging war without broad popular support."

"That you hear growing grousing and, lamentably, mourning coming from reservists’ homes means that the system is working exactly the way it was envisioned by former Army chief of staff Gen. Creighton Abrams."

http://www.roa.org/legislative_affairs/pp0302_rebalance.asp

The ROA believes the Abrams Doctrine is still valid and should be considered. The concept that recalling citizen soldiers before a conflict begins is, in fact, good for our country. As our military goes to war the American people should [in spirit] go with it. We must assume that since the Department remains silent on the "Abrams Doctrine" that there is no DoD recognition of its importance to our national character. In our view we need to consider this concept as an integral part of force planning. Since there is an ever-decreasing percentage of young Americans who get to serve in the military and since there are fewer and fewer national and community leaders who have direct military exposure, a compelling case can be made for applying the "Abrams Doctrine" in building our military capabilities.

[Tane Angle]

Complaining is a pillar of military life (within reason, of course).

I am still concerned over the apparent upcoming major drop in NG, Reserve, and AD enlistments. Those complaints will likely result in a depleted force. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[jizzmonkey]

ok, here's the deal.........for those of you saying that the reservist's pay is screwed up, your wrong. They get activated, they get active duty pay, if they have a problem after that, its not unusual for anyone active, reserve or national guard, they can take a number, every Joe I know has had a pay problem at some point in their carrier. Not only do they get active duty pay, but depending on where they go CONUS, they get Family seperation pay as well, thats an extra 250/month so in the long run, they get paid more than the active duty, and complain more too.
Of course everyone is going to bitch, but they bitch for the wrong reasons.
The guys getting activated for 18 months arent spending 18 in Iraq, they get a 6 month refresher on basic stuff, and them do their tour of 12 months like the rest of us.
So in conclusion, if it were up to me ,I would rather not have those sniveling bitches with me in combat, they can stay back here and pull guard at every post for the 12 month while I'm in iraq.
The fact of the matter is this, I dont particularly want to spend 12 months in that stinki'n dust bowl myself, but we are short people, sooooo I know That everyone at some point is going to cycle through the blender weather they like it or not, at least save the bitching for when you get there.

[California Joe]

When I talked to Don Rumsfeld the other day he said you guys have more than enough people over there already. Then I noticed there was smoke in my ass.

[jizzmonkey]

yeah, and you can only blow some much smoke up JOE's ass before he farts!

[11F5S]

Complaining is a pillar of military life (within reason, of course).

I am still concerned over the apparent upcoming major drop in NG, Reserve, and AD enlistments. Those complaints will likely result in a depleted force. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

I have the very same concerns, complaints aside....the current RC frequency/length of deployment is going to make it very difficult if not impossible for most individuals to continue to serve....I also have a concern about civil servants serving in the RC...Who is going to fight fires, police the streets, and man the ambulances when those serving in the RC's are on active duty? Robbing Peter to pay Paul usually leads to disaster.


****monkey

I can see some justification for complaints from those in the RC about the length and frequency of activations, but I can not stomach AD soldiers, spouses, and families bitching to the media about being deployed too long.
Soldiering afterall is their chosen full-time profession.

[Beowulf]

ok, here's the deal.........for those of you saying that the reservist's pay is screwed up, your wrong. They get activated, they get active duty pay, if they have a problem after that, its not unusual for anyone active, reserve or national guard, they can take a number, every Joe I know has had a pay problem at some point in their carrier. Not only do they get active duty pay, but depending on where they go CONUS, they get Family seperation pay as well, thats an extra 250/month so in the long run, they get paid more than the active duty, and complain more too.
Of course everyone is going to bitch, but they bitch for the wrong reasons.
The guys getting activated for 18 months arent spending 18 in Iraq, they get a 6 month refresher on basic stuff, and them do their tour of 12 months like the rest of us.

The point is that they are activated for 18 months, away from home, family, jobs, etc.

So in conclusion, if it were up to me ,I would rather not have those sniveling bitches with me in combat, they can stay back here and pull guard at every post for the 12 month while I'm in iraq.

Really?....does that include the SOF and NGSF units? What about the armor, infantry and recon units? What do you do that allows you to offer blanket criticism of the reserve component?


The fact of the matter is this, I dont particularly want to spend 12 months in that stinki'n dust bowl myself, but we are short people, sooooo I know That everyone at some point is going to cycle through the blender weather they like it or not, at least save the bitching for when you get there.

[California Joe]

Nice use of red there moderator pal.

[Trigger]

He's so flamboyant :D

[California Joe]

Almost like, dare I say it? Adam :lol:

[Trigger]

Funny how they're never in the same place at the same time....


<gasp!>


My heart...


*slumps*

[California Joe]

Hey, that's my line Lois.

[Beowulf]

No soldier should be complaining to the press unless things are really really f-d up, if then. The army has a lot of options in place, IG, CID, most commanders have an open door policy.

That being said, every soldier has the right to complain within his own unit, hell you could give joe a room at the hilton and he'll fnd something to bitch about. It's just the nature of soldiering, we're only happy when miserable.

There are many problems that plague the reserve system. Here are a few:
1. Many reservists are misled concerning the commitment necessary to be in the reserves. On the one hand you should be able to trust a recruiter, on th other hand it's my contract, my life and I'm not trusting anyone b/c everyone's got an angle.

2. Many reservists lose a lot of money when activated compared to their civilian jobs, this isn't a problem until you've got a wife and kids at home. Also if you are self-employed in any way, you run a big risk of losing your business, a lawyer for example.

3. Equipment: reservists get the shaft. They are expected to do more with less. This includes things like weapons, commo, NVD's, vehicle/vehicle maintenance, the list goes on.

4. Training: Reservists get the shaft. Litlle to no money for schools, training equipment, ammo/blanks, batteries, fuel, etc. There are empty slots for schools, that people aren't being sent to fill b/c the unit/battalion cannot/will not spend the money for the soldiers pay. Just the pay, not for the school itself, but for the soldiers base pay while attending the school.

5. Long deployments: this will get anyone complaining eventually, but more so if you're not sure when you're coming home. Some orders for reservists have said "one year not to exceed two", what do you tell the family anout that?

6. Stop loss nuff said

7. Suspension of Perstempo days nuff said

8 and finally: getting **** on by active duty soldiers. Especiall sucks when its 0-5 and above.

These are some of the main reasons reservists are complaining. Even with all of this guys are staying in, going for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th deployments. There are guys I know that have gone somewhere every year for the past five years. A lot of guys know what they're getting into and love it , why are they reservists? b/c they do other things. LE is the main one.

All for now
-B
Most of this stuff applies to the NG as well

[Beowulf]

polesmoker's....... ;)

[California Joe]

I love you man...... :)

[jizzmonkey]

[quote="Beowulf"]No soldier should be complaining to the press unless things are really really f-d up, if then. The army has a lot of options in place, IG, CID, most commanders have an open door policy.

I reaaaally dont think CID or IG is going to give two ****s about this whole mess, this is alllll DA's doing.

As for the SF guru's, well if you have a job that fun, who's going to complain?

[Beowulf]

I just mentioned CID and IG, for reporting problems in a unit, stuff like corruption, ****** harassment, etc. stuff that falls under the "really bad" category...
-b

[ibstolidude]

ok, here's the deal.........for those of you saying that the reservist's pay is screwed up, your wrong. They get activated, they get active duty pay, if they have a problem after that, its not unusual for anyone active, reserve or national guard, they can take a number, every Joe I know has had a pay problem at some point in their carrier. Not only do they get active duty pay, but depending on where they go CONUS, they get Family seperation pay as well, thats an extra 250/month so in the long run, they get paid more than the active duty, and complain more too.
Of course everyone is going to bitch, but they bitch for the wrong reasons.
The guys getting activated for 18 months arent spending 18 in Iraq, they get a 6 month refresher on basic stuff, and them do their tour of 12 months like the rest of us.
So in conclusion, if it were up to me ,I would rather not have those sniveling bitches with me in combat, they can stay back here and pull guard at every post for the 12 month while I'm in iraq.
The fact of the matter is this, I dont particularly want to spend 12 months in that stinki'n dust bowl myself, but we are short people, sooooo I know That everyone at some point is going to cycle through the blender weather they like it or not, at least save the bitching for when you get there.

there are misrepresentations in this post...

- family seperation pay is not only available to the reservists.

- reservists although using the active duty pay scales are in fact paid by a seperate department than the active component- as they are not already in this activated pay status it often takes months for the money to catch up (just as it did when you first get promo's or enter AD)...but unlike aoldiers who have been on active and have ran over these obstacles the reservist/ng soldier is now overseas, living in non-government housing and has no yet been paid a dime 5 months into the deployment. As opposed the same pay problems I had as a single in barracks living E2 on AD; the results can now be catastrophic for a family.

- reservists/ng do not activate in order to "6 month refresher on basic stuff" - that would atypical of the average reserve/ng deployment.

- I earned my right to bitch...a couple of wars....4 first rotations of 9 months or longer... and few return rotations....3 years on active out the last five I spent in the reserves (non-volountary)..as little as 10 months at home in between..and stop lossed for almost that entire period ( 2.5 years prior to Sept 11)-I had to have a special waiver from our command authority just to move to a different Bn in my own group. Not to mention the additional excersises/jcet/soldier exchange/med flag/ncoes/skill schools/mission support/instructor time on active.


So in conclusion, if it were up to me ,I would rather not have those sniveling bitches with me in combat, they can stay back here and pull guard at every post for the 12 month while I'm in iraq.
The fact of the matter is this, I dont particularly want to spend 12 months in that stinki'n dust bowl myself - amazing how many of those snivling bitches have beaten you there...1st bde 25th ID - when was the last trip down range you guys made???? - no wonder you can't understand the bitches and complaints...I'd rather take my chances with the bitchy reservists and NG'man who have spent time in the box looking at the business end of weapons.
- you be sure to let all those soldiers from the 19th, 20th SFG's (and other SOF- PSYOP, CA), MI - tht's, Naval Reserve (SW and SEAL teams included) the ng ESB's, INF, the MP's, the aircrews, TACP's/reserve ROMADs, ravens, etc, and most of all the medics know how you feel so that can let your ass be.

I am no fan of the bitching and whining, there is certainly too much of that; but your spray and pray comments, and **** slinging words appear no better to me.

[Jack Mehoff]

[quote=Beowulf]No soldier should be complaining to the press unless things are really really f-d up, if then. The army has a lot of options in place, IG, CID, most commanders have an open door policy.

I reaaaally dont think CID or IG is going to give two ****s about this whole mess, this is alllll DA's doing.

As for the SF guru's, well if you have a job that fun, who's going to complain?

:lol: Their wives, significant other and maybe their boss

[ibstolidude]

...
-b

damn you B!

you beat me to the punch.

Bitching to the press is one thing....bitch to your chain of command is another..
and there is a difference between bitching to the press and the press reporting your bitching..

[Jack Mehoff]

...
-b

damn you B!

you beat me to the punch.

Bitching to the press is one thing....bitch to your chain of command is another..
and there is a difference between bitching to the press and the press reporting your bitching..

damn you B!

you beat me to the punch.

Anyway, i agree. I've seen people often bitch a lot when the weather got extremely cold or hot during field excercise but they still do their job. A little bit of bitching isn't going to hurt anybody but excessive bitching will get your ass kick because nobody like bitches.

[California Joe]

I had a heart attack and I didn't bitch. Except when I got a cherry Italian ice instead of an orange one. As mockingbird loudly would say "I'm f*ckin' hard mate"

[jizzmonkey]

@ibstolidude:

There is no misrepresentation in the post, you may have taken what or whom I am talkling about the wrong way.

National guard, Reservist ARE paid family seperation if they deploy away from home more than 30 days, it might have been different in your days.
Once these units are activated, they get all the same benefits the active components get, and then whatever difference their employers in some cases make up. All components of the army are paid by DA, if the NG is activated they do to.
I'm not talking about the SF reserve units or any of the other "cool guy" units you refering to.
And with 16 years in service I to have earned my fair share of 'real world" complaining rights.

[jizzmonkey]

Furthermore, I'm not talking about everyday "hey I'm cold, this suck" bitching, I'm talking about a lot of RV and NG trying their damndest to get out of going, all from faking physical profiles to going AWOL, to flat out missing movement on purpose to get chaptered, that the bitching that is pissing me off.
The pay problems affect active, NG and reservist the same. You can blame that one on DFAS

[jizzmonkey]

Ohhh I see no one wants to respond huh?!

[Dominique]

@ibstolidude:

Once these units are activated, they get all the same benefits the active components get, and then whatever difference their employers in some cases make up. All components of the army are paid by DA, if the NG is activated they do to.

I'm not talking about the SF reserve units or any of the other "cool guy" units you refering to.

And with 16 years in service I to have earned my fair share of 'real world" complaining rights.

That's not quite true. I'm in the ARNG and currently in my 13th month of active duty. NG that are federalized are paid from a seperate pay system. We still get out checks from the Guard, and the Guard is paided back by DA.

We are not eligible for several benefits that active duyt troops get, no GI Bill, no alotments, different promotions, and no active duty schools.

Now I freely admit that we have a LARGE number of crying ass whiners in the guard, and they need to be weeded out, but they don't cry any moe than the active duty unit we are assigned to.

In the last six months the unit we are assigned to has had 1 person chaptered out, busted two E-5s, a couple of E-4s, ahd two people get busted for DUI, and one person under investigation for stealing cahs at a party (and these guys are MPs!!!).

As for people bitching about pay problems, every and I mean everyone in my uit has had pay problems. Not getting payed at all, years of service disappearing (how could an E-6 only have two years of service?), getting paid the wrong amount of money, etc. These are legitimate problems.

On the equipment and training front, about six years agoour uit got down graded to a lower tier and the money just stopped. Out vehicles are falling apart, our weapons are old, we just got SINGARS two years ago (they came out in 1989), and over half the unit does not have its basic inital issue (most of my TA-50 is stuff I bought out of my own pocket). Most of us had to by our own PT uniforms ($136.00 a pop).

As for these guys on t.v., that's piss poor leadership on their unit's part. If the unit's NCO's are not aware of what's going on that's on them.

I could go on, but I won't.

[jizzmonkey]

I dont know what unit your assigned to, but thats some sorry ****, as far as the benefits are concerned your state probably offers better incentives compared to the GI Bill, so no loss there.(the GI Bill isn't what its cut out to be anyway)your recruiter at the time you joined the guard screwed you out of that one. Guys coming on active duty today get a lot of **** I was never offered, thats the way it goes, a reenlistment bonus (SRB) of 7,000 today will end up being 1,000 tommorow, nobody but DA controls that, if they are sucking for people that month the bonus goes up or down, if you want the scoop on that got to the army human resources homepage.
Depending on your active duty assignment it will determine who pays you , if its federalized or not, either way you should recieve the same pay, I'm not sure about the allotment thing but thats trivial (most banks now a days have a thing called bill pay), As far as the pay problems thats your own S-1's fault for not fixing discrepancies, there is this thing called a pay inquiry, all active guys have the same problem.
If you are slotted to deploy overseas then the government will use the "rapid fielding program" to update your outdated gear to a certain extent, if your staying state-side than you probably wont get the new ****, cause you dont need it. Have a nice day. :D
And we all had to buy the P.T's unless you just got out of basic training.

[jizzmonkey]

your basic issue, is your own responsibility to maintain, if you are activated the army will make up any shortage to upgrade you to active duty basic issue.
You wont get 4 sets of BDU's if you only work 1 weekend out of the month.
If all these problems you claim are occuring I think you need to talk to your chain of command and adress the issue, If they dont help, move a step higher, I understand some things arent even in their control, but if your guarding an airport or some tasking conus, you arent going to get interceptor vests and MICH kevlars, thats just the way that cookie is going to crumble.
Your mission dictates your equipment needs and training its this thing called METT dependant (mision, equipment, time and terrain) check some FM's out, they actually can be educating.
Even active duty guys dont get to exchange old raggatty uniformes, we get a thing called clothing allowance, its not much I know but it gets the job done. You will get one too.
If you are guarding an airport the army isnt going to send you to sniper school, even active duty guys dont get army schools that easy, you have to reenlist for them, they arent free unless your job requires them.

[jizzmonkey]

I hope you arent an NCO, and much less an officer, I cant stand people that complain about how ****ed up their units are.
If you'r unit's that bad its because you as a leader let it get that bad, dont complain how screwed up it is if your not going to fix it!

Having stripes doesnt make you a leader, you want to lead soldiers you do it from the front, the guy in charge isnt really the sergeant, its the guy with the most balls to take charge and make things happen, if that private has more balls than me, than he deserves my job, and he's more than welcome to fight me for it.
Thats IF he has the balls.
And forget that NCO creed, it was written by officers, keep it simple:

ETWDIFTB
(everything we do is for the boys)

[jizzmonkey]

[quote="Tane Angle"]Complaining is a pillar of military life (within reason, of course).

I'm not talking about average complaining, go to cnn.com and see these guys complaining about having to leave home and their families for a year, boohoo, you shouldn't have signed the dotted line if you never intended to go through with it.

[Beowulf]

Stoli check this out!!!


Your mission dictates your equipment needs and training its this thing called METT dependant (mision, equipment, time and terrain) check some FM's out, they actually can be educating

ahhhhahahahahahahaha, yeah right....mission dictates equipment..... :lol:

[jizzmonkey]

you do the best with what you got, we all do, its part of being a leader.And if you cant handle it you get a different job. Nobody forces you to re-up.

[ibstolidude]

Stoli check this out!!!


Your mission dictates your equipment needs and training its this thing called METT dependant (mision, equipment, time and terrain) check some FM's out, they actually can be educating

ahhhhahahahahahahaha, yeah right....mission dictates equipment..... :lol:

yeah I know!

the above must be why some SOF (to include NG SFG's) deployed without the MICH to A-stan in 01/02 but "I went to Bosnia in 99 on rotation 23" CAV units have them. That must be "mission dictates"....you know cause they needed them sitting back in the states to match their spiffy new uniforms with the sleeve pockets, paid for by the army...while you had to beg yours off the riggers.

- hey if your unit gets it ..great. but lets not pretend that the reasons are not fiscal & budgetary and based on mission and optempo - they are not based on optempo/demands....lest aviation fuel/petroluem supply specialists would be the best funded, most high speed gucci kit having mother ****ers in the army, since they are among the most deployed/critical from the AD and the reserve/NG.


my new tag line!
________________________
hey put it on your SOR.....we'll send it to your through the SOTSE...but there is no SOTSE???.."then you'll fall in on it down range."

[Seiyuuki]

Army: No punishment for mom who didn't return to Iraq
Friday, November 14, 2003 Posted: 8:23 PM EST (0123 GMT)

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- A soldier who refused to return to Iraq so she could care for her children will not be punished, the Army said Friday.

Spc. Simone Holcomb, 30, had feared she would face criminal charges and a discharge that would cause her to lose the benefits she earned as a member of the Colorado National Guard.

But Army spokesman Maj. Steve Stover said the medic will face no administrative or criminal penalties.

For compassionate reasons, she will be allowed to remain at Colorado's Fort Carson and will be given time to resolve the custody dispute that led to her refusal to return to Iraq, the Army said.

Holcomb's attorney, Giorgio Ra'Shadd called the announcement good news but said he had not received confirmation in writing. "Every soldier knows that unless it's in writing, it's not true," he said.

Holcomb and her husband, Sgt. 1st Class Vaughn Holcomb, 40, were both sent to Iraq in February and a grandmother cared for the children. The couple returned on leave in September to settle a dispute with Vaughn Holcomb's ex-wife, who was seeking custody of two of the children.

A judge said one of the Holcombs had to stay home with the children to resolve the dispute. Simone Holcomb said she decided to stay because she is a reservist, while her husband has 20 years of active-duty service and is near retirement. She also said her husband, a tank platoon sergeant, would be more sorely missed by his unit.

[hood]

Army: No punishment for mom who didn't return to Iraq

I think they may have made a concession since she wasn't trying to get out of the army, losing her kid was a possibility, and both parents were in the armed forces. If that's not extenuating circumstances, I don't know what is.

[Jack Mehoff]

Just another double standard :roll:

[jizzmonkey]

@ibstolidude


yeah I know!

the above must be why some SOF (to include NG SFG's) deployed without the MICH to A-stan in 01/02 but "I went to Bosnia in 99 on rotation 23" CAV units have them. That must be "mission dictates"....you know cause they needed them sitting back in the states to match their spiffy new uniforms with the sleeve pockets, paid for by the army...while you had to beg yours off the riggers.


I have no earthly idea what the hell you are talking about, the army didnt even start fielding the MICH until 2000, and no CAV unit in the regular army has ever seen the MICH, not yet at least, they will soon, most units on jump status are getting them pretty quick but the rest of the army isnt scheduled for a while.I dont know when you two goons got out of the army, but **** has changed, do a little research then post your comments, sounds like a few old disgruntled employees to me. Enjoy the chairs in your offices, and I hope you stay there.
Everybody else has to pay for sleeve pockets too if they want them, they dont come standard issue. And yes that inculdes any unit in SOCOM too.
The ACU's only made an appearence in the last few months.

[Beowulf]

Enjoy the chairs in your offices, and I hope you stay there

Thanks for clearing that up for me....man my office was a pretty crazy place what with all the 107mm rockets being shot at the safe house...umm errr I mean office....polesmoker
-b

[jizzmonkey]

my point exactly, a couple of airsoft posers.

[hood]

I invite you to see some of Beowulf's airsoft adventures.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/album14

[jizzmonkey]

If you really are what you say you are, then I sincearly appoligize, but........I gotta tell ya........I'm a little sceptical of the pictures man...... for all I know, that's the mojave, and the bow-flouge painted m-16's with the chinese manufatured chest pouches make me wonder....

not sure who said it :

I may not agree with what you say, But I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

[jizzmonkey]

And if you are who you say you are, then why are you bitching about not getting the MICH, SF/PSYOP, dont ever really wear kevlars unless they are on jumps anyway.......................?????, and I dont know to many deployed troops with enough time to sit around and be moderators for forum sites..........hmmmmmmmm?????, you must have a lot of time on your hands.

[Apogee]

I haven't ever met them personally, but I'm willing to go to bat for either Stoli or Beo. Both of these guys have always seemed to be right on the money with their statments. They've also been on this forum a helluva lot longer than you have.

I'm not trying to start some flame war, just saying it'd be wise to maybe PM people and ask about their credentials if you seriously doubt what they've done.

Calling them airsoft commandos does a disservice to the hard work they have both put in defending this country.

[jizzmonkey]

being on the forum for a long time only reiterates my point, too much time on their hands. what does being on the forum longer or not establish?

[Ratamacue]

You spend an awful lot of time on this forum for an active-duty troop as well, dude. 36 posts in 5 days? 7.2 posts a day? Maybe you oughta get back to your duties in the Army.

[jizzmonkey]

what can I say, not a lot going on, Its after duty hours, and I'm not deployed (yet), I'm not trying to start ****, but they seem pretty defensive for being the quiet proffesionals.

And by the way, my wife IS pissed I'm spending so much time on this forum, so maybe your right.

[Tane Angle]

With all due respect, sir, may I offer a few thoughts? I mean no offense to you or anyone else, and apologize in advance if I miswrite and accidentally do offend you or anyone else.

Basically, USMA_SCUBA got it right. Nice post, SCUBA. If they don't mind, perhaps a PM would be in order?

This is the way I've been taught: earn respect, build a ******* with the indigenous folks, particularly the village wiseman, in this case Beowulf and ibstolidude. It can take weeks or months to gain real respect out in the world, but the pay off is often more than worth it.

By the way guys, if Beowulf's the village wiseman, and Hood's probably the chief, does that make me the senile old grandma who hits people with her cane? p-)

Also, Machiavelli said that quote. Hope that helps.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Jack Mehoff]

Just send the fan mail to their AKO accounts

[Nawlins]

my point exactly, a couple of airsoft posers.

Go ahead, just keep making an ass of yourself. Frankly, you've lost all credibility with me. It's become clear to me that you are either too lazy to get your facts straight or you just don't know what the hell you're talking about.

That is all.

[wyrm_142]

You know, the whinning and b!tching by the activated Guard & Reserve members are being highlighted just like all the 'bad crap' that happens in Iraq on a daily basis.

Lets see - last numbers I saw (which was like Tuesday, DA morning ops brief) was something around 100k (maybe more) RA/RG component troops on active duty around the world. Media is getting on the people that are vocal about being 'screwed', cause it's EASY when someone comes to you looking to get a sound bite, you don't have to do any research. (BTW if anyone watched / listened to PBS/NPR something similar was on Newshour on Friday.)

Just like its damn easy to report on a car bomb, or another road side bomb - but good grief did anyone that had a clue (or any sort of combat arms experince) really think that this was going to be like Germany or Japan (~50 KIA post VE, 0 KIA post VJ)? If you are in combat arms - and thought it was going to be flowers and wine, then I really think your S2 should get fired for making you drink the BS kool-aid.

We're doing alot of good in Iraq (and Afganistan) but news media has to focus on the BAD - bad SF troop gets killed in Pakitia Provience (but they never say why...) - bad IED blows up, kills 2, etc. There are Evildoers in both places, and likely would be if we got involved anywhere else where Islam is a sizeable % of the regious base. They've drank the westerner is bad Kool-aid. I'm not saying that everyone in a Islamic nation is bad - I'm just saying that currently there is a ground swell of agression towards that great Satan (the US of A).

I'm just getting tired of the negitaviity.

OK - I'm done venting, yet I have to ask why we've run this topic into the dirt (unless I'm the only one that thinks that)?

wyrm

TSgt, ORANG, Deployed...

[hood]

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/Remnants-X.gif

[martinexsquaddie]

well Just to throw in the UK experiance. My brothers deployed to Basra for a 6 month tour through the TA had loads of brand new kit thrown at him and a new rifle :roll: His pay's been sorted out and he gets two weeks home leave included in that tour. Last letter he was getting bored day on day off working gameboy advance and minidisc saying his life books all went in the comfy box to be seen whenever?. Also TA pay is made up to civil levels up to a certain level usually last years tax +5%
to a limit of 25grand though that is open to negotiation if someone can provide evidence i.e. morgage or school fees to pay or child care costs if you prepared to argue woot

[marktigger]

yes thats tellic 3/4
tellic 1 was a disaster for the reserves there was incidences of cooks from the catering support regiment being taken of planes when their units were returning to the UK.
RTMC came to speak to the reservists at our location and I was sitting at the other end of the cook house with the chief clerk when the RTMC speakers started blaming the units for pay etc being incorrect and saying it was the regular armys fault. the chief clerk told me he spent most of thee day on the phone to army pay and records trying to sort out the mess RTMC had made of pay and documentation. I think its goten better because of the stink that was created by the troops and by the media when it started to leak out. And also formed units are being sent so there is a TA command element now who will stand up for their guys and girls.

[Dominique]

I dont know what unit your assigned to, but thats some sorry ****, as far as the benefits are concerned your state probably offers better incentives compared to the GI Bill, so no loss there.(the GI Bill isn't what its cut out to be anyway)your recruiter at the time you joined the guard screwed you out of that one. Guys coming on active duty today get a lot of **** I was never offered, thats the way it goes, a reenlistment bonus (SRB) of 7,000 today will end up being 1,000 tommorow, nobody but DA controls that, if they are sucking for people that month the bonus goes up or down, if you want the scoop on that got to the army human resources homepage.
Depending on your active duty assignment it will determine who pays you , if its federalized or not, either way you should recieve the same pay, I'm not sure about the allotment thing but thats trivial (most banks now a days have a thing called bill pay), As far as the pay problems thats your own S-1's fault for not fixing discrepancies, there is this thing called a pay inquiry, all active guys have the same problem.
If you are slotted to deploy overseas then the government will use the "rapid fielding program" to update your outdated gear to a certain extent, if your staying state-side than you probably wont get the new ****, cause you dont need it. Have a nice day. :D
And we all had to buy the P.T's unless you just got out of basic training.

I freely admit my unit needs to dump some of the ash and trash that they allowed to join. I was out for four years, and just came back in before the battalion was activated. They basically have some garbage that was recruited to fill that month "recruiting goal". They need to be **** canned. I'd rather work with 10 people that want to be there and do their jobs, than have 50 taht I spend half the day in their ass.

But, as I said, the active duty unit wea re assigned to has just as many if not more problems than we have.

Guard benefits vary from state to state, as far as pay problems go, there is a HUGE problem with activated guard and reserve units not gettting paid. It's not a unit S-1 problem its an Army wide problem that needs to be resolve at DA and NGB level. They both say they are aware of the problem and are looking at a fix.

Some people are taking a huge cut in pay to be here, and we have a couple of guys that own their own businesses that are on the verge of loosing them.

The "rapid feilding program" is not quit cutting it. The regualr army is having problems fileding equipment to units, so deploying guard and reserve go to the bottom of the pile. As far as getting issued PTs, you get a clothing allowance, it took the NGB and DA close to three month of arguing to figure out if they were going to allow us to get it.

[Dominique]

your basic issue, is your own responsibility to maintain, if you are activated the army will make up any shortage to upgrade you to active duty basic issue.
You wont get 4 sets of BDU's if you only work 1 weekend out of the month.
If all these problems you claim are occuring I think you need to talk to your chain of command and adress the issue, If they dont help, move a step higher, I understand some things arent even in their control, but if your guarding an airport or some tasking conus, you arent going to get interceptor vests and MICH kevlars, thats just the way that cookie is going to crumble.
Your mission dictates your equipment needs and training its this thing called METT dependant (mision, equipment, time and terrain) check some FM's out, they actually can be educating.
Even active duty guys dont get to exchange old raggatty uniformes, we get a thing called clothing allowance, its not much I know but it gets the job done. You will get one too.
If you are guarding an airport the army isnt going to send you to sniper school, even active duty guys dont get army schools that easy, you have to reenlist for them, they arent free unless your job requires them.

The only, and I say again, ONLY gear the regular army has issued us is a set of Gortex (at the time we were activated most of us didn't even have a filed jacket, and the temps were in the 30's), some Polypro long underwear, and "Bear suit". Other than that, nada, they basically said get it from your state. The state says we don't have the gear, you guys are on active duty, get it from them, and so it goes. From what I hear, that's the way its going for a lot of units.

As far as talking to the chain of command goes, its been done, they are aware of the problems and are supposedly working to fix some of the issues, others they basically said, it's out of our hands, or suck it up nad drive on.

I'm not asking for all the latest wiz bang gear, I just need the basic equipment required to do our job, If I'm pulling airfield security I have no vehicle, a radio that works some of the ime, awith not extra batteries, no lights, and no body armor at all. Hell we just got issued chemical suits last month (we had not had any in well over a year). We also have critical shortage of radios, flash lights, cold weatehr clothing, and a **** load of other gear.

Were not asking for Ranger, Jump, Pathfinder, etc. but we do need things like MOS qualification, and things that we are supposed to have to stay profeicient in our duty MOS (forward observer, CLS, ANOC, BNOC, small arms instructor)

Lastely its METT-T . If you check out any of the 44 or 100 series FMs if you need a refresher. ;)

[Dominique]

I hope you arent an NCO, and much less an officer, I cant stand people that complain about how f*** up their units are.
If you'r unit's that bad its because you as a leader let it get that bad, dont complain how screwed up it is if your not going to fix it!

Having stripes doesnt make you a leader, you want to lead soldiers you do it from the front, the guy in charge isnt really the sergeant, its the guy with the most balls to take charge and make things happen, if that private has more balls than me, than he deserves my job, and he's more than welcome to fight me for it.
Thats IF he has the balls.
And forget that NCO creed, it was written by officers, keep it simple:

ETWDIFTB
(everything we do is for the boys)

Yes I am an NCO, and I'm complaing becuase we are constantly stone walled. I can't stand it when things are screwed up. You come up with simple solutions to problems,and they get shot down or six months after you submit a fix they still "have it under consideration".

Let me give you an example, point out that a vehicle can drive strait down a road without hitting a "jersey wall", They come out and look, six months later its still the same way. Or you when you point out that instead of wasting time having three seperate formations (we have one, the active duty MPs have one, and then we both have one), why not ust have one formation, and the ansear you get is "this is the way we ahve always done it". These are the things I'm compliaing about.

The thing that really pissed me off is how they plan to do awards. Out commander wants everyone to get and award, I don't feel thats the way it should happen. I've got two people I feel went beyond their basic requirements, everyone else is should get what I call an "I showed up" thank you for a good job letter and sent on their way. If you got hit with a courts martial for being AWOL, some one has to look for you ever day, or you tell your NCOIC I came in for some money for school, not this ****, how the hell do you rate an award two months later?

One of the other guys actually told me quit rocking the boat, or I'm going to end up with my as in a sling. We have a group of very week NCO's that are 1) lazy 2) scared to say anything that might "get them in trouble" 3) refuse to stand up for their troops. :bash:

How in the hell do you not know you have a man in the hospital for 3 days? You don't even ask where he's at. How can you stand in a meeting with the platoon sergeant and say, "its not my job to look for his ass." I'ts sad. :(

OK, I've rambled on enough, and taken up way to much space venting. I'll let everyone get back to the original topic.

[ibstolidude]

I have no earthly idea what the hell you are talking about, the army didnt even start fielding the MICH until 2000, and no CAV unit in the regular army has ever seen the MICH, not yet at least, they will soon, most units on jump status are getting them pretty quick but the rest of the army isnt scheduled for a while.I dont know when you two goons got out of the army, but **** has changed, do a little research then post your comments, sounds like a few old disgruntled employees to me. Enjoy the chairs in your offices, and I hope you stay there.
Everybody else has to pay for sleeve pockets too if they want them, they dont come standard issue. And yes that inculdes any unit in SOCOM too.
The ACU's only made an appearence in the last few months.

- check with 1st CAV 1st Bde (possibly the other BDE's also) and see if they are in the process of issuing/have issued out the new mich to them.... they would be AD cav..perhaps they are the new airborne tankers???

- does not the new Stryker crew poposed unifrom offer sleeve pockets -ACU? Is it not fielding at Ft Lewis? And actually most people I have known (actually I am not personally aware of anyone paying to do this) do not pay for sleeve pockets, the blessed riggers sew them up for you.

[California Joe]

I don't know why Beowulf keeps saying he looks like Ron Jeremy. He really doesn't. ;)

[ibstolidude]

what can I say, not a lot going on, Its after duty hours, and I'm not deployed (yet), I'm not trying to start ****, but they seem pretty defensive

I should hope so. I hope I do seem defensive.

Your lambasting of the Reserve and NG troops deserves a defense.
Or have you forgotten:



-Sorry you had to leave you cushy job at wall street where you made a **** load of money, and now you are here making what I make.

WELCOME TO MY WORLD, NOW STOP YOUR BITCHING!!!!
--------------------- (sic)
So in conclusion, if it were up to me ,I would rather not have those sniveling bitches with me in combat, they can stay back here and pull guard at every post for the 12 month while I'm in iraq

[Haiw]

Someone get the medikit...that ****monkey's ass took a little bit too much spanking :petting:

[martinexsquaddie]

its sad when yanks end up with less kit there supposed to be well suppiled. when my bro turned up at chilwell he was issued with an embaressment of riches 2 pairs Dessie Boots a brand new pair of the semi-mythical pro boots softie 6 jacket and trousers camelback 3 sets of camoflauge gear and a smock. The ironic thing was knowing the usual poor state of stores. The entire unit had gone on a spending spree in portsmouth to make sure they had a basic level of kit :lol: It seems the MOD only got there act together after the war was over.

[Jack Mehoff]

martinexsquaddie,

I don't know where you get that information but these are the new TA-50 my new NATIONAL GUARD unit just issue to me.

2 pairs of combat boot
1 gortex boot
1 pair of cold weather gortex (top, bottom)
1 pair of bear suit (top, bottom)
1 blacavala
1 ponch liner
1 gortex sleeping bag
1 neck gator
1 ALICE pack
1 camelpack
2 pair of winter BDU
2 pair of summer BDU
1 winter soft cap
1 summer soft cap
2 pair of long sleeve PT shirt+2 pair PT short
2 pair of short sleeve PT shirt+ 2 pair of PT short
1 pair of winter PT sweather(top, bottom)
personal tent, brown underwear, brown tshirts, socks(winter, summer), etc.
blah blah blah blah blah

[WARPIG]

As a former active duty Army grunt and a current NG MP.. I have to say your thinking is a little off ****monkey. I have had equal time in both organizations and like many of the posts here, I know that the reservists mostly have valid complaints. (not the typical stuff.. the awols, malingering, etc) That comes with the territory. Keep in mind that most reservists and NG are part timers. We volunteered yes.. just like you but we have two lives to maintain. Civilian life is a bit different than military. Having to worry about job security, health insurance, running a business, maintaining crops/livestock, single parenting... etc. aren't typical active duty responsibilities. We also have to do what we can with the piss poor sporatic training we get. Stack on top of that the unit strength requirements that are filled with people that sometimes don't belong in uniform. I think the NG and reserve are doing pretty well working with what they have as far as equipment. Many soldiers from my state have been using M16A1s until last year. Think a little training is needed before they get to Iraq? All those little things build up ****. The stuff that you take for granted in Active, are things that you have to fight for in the Guard. Lumping the ****ty logistics and organization of the Guard with the dirtbags that go AWOL and sandbaggers is bogus. The Active duty have just as many but have been controlled since day one. National Guard leaders can't even rely on UCMJ until they are activated.. do you think the officers know how to use UCMJ articles very well? Probably not.
Really, complaining because you don't like the NG unit your with just because they are NG is weak. Put yourself in their shoes one day. When you get back from theatre in 18 months your still a Joe. You get a couple awards, combat patch, maybe a CIB, and back to training. NG troops might have a job after 18 months. Many companies only have policy for deployments of 12 months. 401k and other benifits cut off. They have their careers pass them by while they are activated. For an active soldier, deployment is a fact of life.. I know. I am a 3rd generation Army NCO. For a Guardsman, life stops while deployed, while the world keeps moving.

[WARPIG]

****, don't use that "written by an officer" bull****. The NCO creed is about professionalism. Whether commisioned or non-commisioned, professional standards are the same. You know that. From your posts I have a feeling that you generally shoot straight. I haven't had any feeling that you would do other wise. Hopefully, you can see that your view is a little limited though. You don't have the full picture. Trust me bro.. I saw the same view as you during Desert Storm.
The NG leadership chain is definately broken though. Half standards are tolerated until someone is held responsible. It is up to NCO's like myself and others on this post to make the changes. We have to focus on enforcing standards and holding to them instead of "strength" numbers.

[Merik]

Thats how it was sold to them.


I agree...too many kids signed up for the army figuring it would get them free college and only take up a weekend a month or whatever....what they forgot is the true purpose of the NG/Reserves, which of course is to supplement the main army should they come up short.

This is true. I graduated from high school in 1999. The military recruiters who came to my high school talked about the G.I. Bill more than anything else. Second up was "you get to do lots of fun things like rappel out of helicopters." They rarely talked about protecting national security or anything like that.

Thats because the only place we were in a war was in Bosnia and we had plenty of troops to filter into one place like that. So technically they didnt have to talk about war and national security since it really wansnt a issue in 1999.

[NcDeuce]

Thats how it was sold to them.


I agree...too many kids signed up for the army figuring it would get them free college and only take up a weekend a month or whatever....what they forgot is the true purpose of the NG/Reserves, which of course is to supplement the main army should they come up short.

This is true. I graduated from high school in 1999. The military recruiters who came to my high school talked about the G.I. Bill more than anything else. Second up was "you get to do lots of fun things like rappel out of helicopters." They rarely talked about protecting national security or anything like that.

Thats because the only place we were in a war was in Bosnia and we had plenty of troops to filter into one place like that. So technically they didnt have to talk about war and national security since it really wansnt a issue in 1999.

*Cough* Clinton was in office.

:cantbeli: