Lebanese Reject Hezbollah/Syria with Historic March

[obd]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4346613.stm

This is great news. I was worried that Hezbollah and Syrian intelligence might be able to intimidate the Lebanese people and destroy this massive show of solidarity...........

I wonder what the Syrian intelligence officer reponisbile for the bright assasination idea is doing now........probably running for his life.

[ElHombre]

I wonder what the Syrian intelligence officer reponisbile for the bright assasination idea is doing now........probably running for his life.

wow, you have proof that syria was behind it? why don't you let the rest of the world in on it?

[One?]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the demonstration last tuesday was estimated at 1.6 million. None of the opposition leaders REJECTED hezbollah (remember that rafik hairi was the one that pushed europeans to keep hezbollah of the terrorist list) but they were all united around that point. Today's demonstration was for all the lebanese that wanted to mark the 1 month anniversary for the death of rafik hariri not a political message.

If the UN still didn't find who killed him how do you know its a syrian intel officer? You think syria is that stupid?

[khukuri]

Wow, when a few hundred thousand people go out and demonstrates against syria its a sign of democratic development. But when 1,6 milllion go out, its a sign of sryian intelligens.organisation influenve and masspublic brainwashing.

[SavikLion]

Lets see some proof of the 1.6 million and dont give me that combined with Syria stuff either, I want to see 1.6 million lebanese protesting for Syria. Obviously Syria would protest Anti-syrian moves. All accounts I have read show that march 14 Anti Syrian protest was the largest Lebanese protest to date. The Boys from Hezzy got 200k and the say the Anti Syrian Pro-lebanese got 800K, Need to show some other proof of 1.6 million, rueters etc, not a terrorist site.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/14/lebanon.syria/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/08/lebanon.syria/index.html

[khukuri]

Savik,
I dont know If you saw the demonstration. I saw it aired, . And trust me, ive been to many demonstrations, you know Im a liberal mongo.

And by the way, tis the shiiities that oppose the syria drwback. theyre the majority of the population. Is it strange to belive that the biggest group can organize the largest demonstration?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Lets see some proof of the 1.6 million and dont give me that combined with Syria stuff either, I want to see 1.6 million lebanese protesting for Syria. Obviously Syria would protest Anti-syrian moves. All accounts I have read show that march 14 Anti Syrian protest was the largest Lebanese protest to date. The Boys from Hezzy got 200k and the say the Anti Syrian Pro-lebanese got 800K, Need to show some other proof of 1.6 million, rueters etc, not a terrorist site.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/14/lebanon.syria/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/08/lebanon.syria/index.html

Good points. All marches are not created equal. I can't remember exactly where it was, but a few years back I recall reading the notes of somebody living in the USSR - and how all of a sudden busses would show up at their school, and they'd be told to get on. Then it was off to whatever march the state wanted to hold. So they had these massive marches - but half the people in the crowd had absolutely no idea what was going on. You can expect the same pretty much anywhere that has an oppressive gov't.

In the US we do it differently. Left wing groups routinely advertise for marchers in the "help wanted" section of the paper - and these "deeply devoted" people show up at the march for their lunch and free T-shirt. :lol:

[khukuri]

That MUCH power the syrians dont have, that they can force people to go out, this is not the soviet union. Just because you dont agree with those marches that are against your interests doesnt mean theire all fake and forced. Dont do yourself a mistake and fool yourselves. No offense at all but you yanks have done it one time to many.

I dont know how the majority of you just ignore the facts that are speaking against you. The biggest group in the country have a direct interest of a syrian presence. Open your eyes and face the facts.

[SavikLion]

Don't dodge the question I didn't mention one thing about left or right. Why wouldn't a Shiite care more about getting Syria out of his country, they share the same religon with Syria, so that isn't the issue, this is about controlling your own government. While you were watching it did you count 1.6 million protestors. Is this your head count, I mean its important when you enter debates to back up what you say. I gave you 2 articles with numbers where did you get your information? And if you were watching it on TV how does that differ from me watching it on TV. I couldn't tell if there was 200k or 500k but I haven't seen one statement that said 1.6 million Lebanese protestors came out to support Syria. So where did that come from. So give some facts to back it up. Dont play the numbers game then when its question throw out rhetoric, I have no problem if it is correct but prove it.

[SavikLion]

Open your eyes go to your source, copy it and paste it, thus proving to me and everyone else on this board what your talking about or is this just a theory of yours. "Yanks "Typical cowardly smug remarks that I wont stoop too, from a Silly Yank. You probably wont respond and just move on to another page to talk your anti-american jive!

[S'13]

But when 1,6 milllion go out, its a sign of sryian intelligens.organisation influenve and masspublic brainwashing.

Wasn't it about 500,000?

I have also read that many of the people were bused in from Syria.

[SavikLion]

Waiting show this silly Yank the proof, US NEWS, Rueters, CNN, BBC, Skynews.

[SavikLion]

most sources I have read stated approx 200k for the pro Syrian march, adn 500k in martyrs square alone on the anti Syrian march on 3/14. But this guy is calling us stupid yanks stating that it was 1.6 million but he won't paste anything to back those numbers, maybe they dont have news agencies where he is located, in the ruins of Eurowussie

[khukuri]

Didnt even give me the chance to reply before calling me eurowussie, so whos the moron. I stated that I didnt mean to offend you, and it really wasnt my intention by writing yanks.

Most of the the sources I read said 1.6 million, inclusive the lebance lbc christian channels, but I will come back with links to cover my back. Look in here tomorrow.

[SavikLion]

Ha I knew you would try to pull that, You need to read I didn't call you Eurowussie I stated where you were located doesn't have news, man do you not even know what you have your location set to. Still I'll be here looking for the proof.

[SavikLion]

Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 967
Location: hiding in ruins for team eurowussie

[SavikLion]

But I am the Yank moron, once again read before you call me a moron. You said 1.6 million and defended it so strongly why will it take a day to locate the source. I have to question that, I mean if most sources dispute your nunbers and all. It like took me 45 seconds to find mine. This source isn't coming from freepalestine.com, or conspiracynow.com. bushisthedevil.org

[khukuri]

Hi the only reason, why insulted you is that you insulted me. Have nothing to do with you being a yank.

I ont need a day to find my resources. I am going to sleep now thats why, where I am its 00.00. You know night? And yes I need to look the resources up, cuz I dont read my news on the net. the numbers I read where mostly from different independent lebaneese resources. Since I read arabic which you dont. And dont tell me that your cnn figures are more reliable, cuz theyre probably second hand.

[SavikLion]

I have no problem if it is 1.6 million pro Syrian. But you start dropping numbers and calling americans yanks like so many before you from europe and its on. I have friends from UK they call me yank and its funny, but even with them they start patronizing me with it I'll step up to it. One thing to be funny and sas someone, another to talk down. I disaggree with the Russians at times but I don't start calling them commies ruskies, nuff said I'll watch for the proof.

[khukuri]

Hi before I go to sleep, I have to mention again that I didnt mean to insult you by calling you yank. I didnt know it was something negative, I used it because its shorter to write down than american. And one more thing you need to check up...

In lebanon there is different groups. Shiites is the bigger one. They were protected and supported by syria, not always thou. With syria pullout, it means more power and influence to non shiite foreignt allies. ----> and more power to theyre christian counterparts who have strong ecomonic situation already.

I dont want syria occupiyng lebanon either, but you have to relize that syrian presence in lebanon is in the gain of the majority of shiites and some seperatistic christian parts, who by the way where apart of the demonstration. You only need basic information about that country to know that. I guess but dont know, since Ive lived there a couple of years I feel that I know more than basic.

[SavikLion]

Alright have a good night, so we can atleast take the personal attacks out of this. If its coming from arabic papers that I can't read and there is no way for me to know if they are partisan to Syria or not it really. I tried to get it from all the news agencies, like the BBC, Rueters, and really CNN, Arab world news. they had no problem saying the Pro- Syrian demo was huge bigger then all the anti ones before it, then on March 14 they said this was the largest by far and one said it was larger but not 800k. I mean Anti-Syrian websites who have been around before this state the same thing and they are controlled by Lebanese who speak arabic.

http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/2005/March/Mar15/Mar15d/mar15d.html


http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/050315/2005031501.html

Say the Pro Syrian one to be 200-300k they state the anti one to be smaller but still not close to 1.6 million

[replay]

Heh, 1.6 million Pro-Syrian protesters. I have no clue where he came up with those numbers. Mainstream and non-mainstream reports had the Pro-Syrian pegged in the hundreds of thousands - and much more than the initial anti-Syrian demonstrations, but there was never a number like 1.6mil being passed around.

1.6mil sounds like some purely pro-Syrian propaganda that got passed around and Lenin took the bait.

[SavikLion]

Not to change the subject but since it has gone negative for a while and debates do grow tiresome. And this may sound funny, but whenever I think of lebanon I get hungry. I have to say I love the food, I am actually very lucky there is an amazing lebanese place called Neomonde here, their food is so awesome. The bread is so good that it makes normal sandwich bread taste like animal feed. To me though by far one of my favorite things is pardon my spelling is the falefal with kufka, and the Swarma, coming in close, and they have these family recipies man. There was also a place that these 2 brothers started the Taza Grill, we used to talk politics everyonce in a while, on this issue especially, but they had the best falefal I have ever had, and I have eaten many. They were only in the US for like 3 years when they opened the grill, and they were hand made not store bought.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

This sounds a lot like when the Nation of Islam held the "Million Man March" in Washington DC in 1997. They obviously hoped for a million (hence the name) - then just after the event (which was well attended) - miraculously gave the number of people who actually attended as "between 1.5 million and 2.0 million."

The actual number, after peer review (government working with the event organizers and some Universities - using science, not feelings) was agreed to be 840,000 with a +/- 20% margin of error - about half of their low estimate. (Of course that margin of error - wich no doubt was fought for tooth and nail by the organizers, means that the number could actually have been as low as 672,000). There is a loooonnnggg way between 672k and 2 million.

http://www.bu.edu/remotesensing/Research/MMM/MMMnew.html

I am not saying that an assload of people supporting Syria didn't turn out. I am saying that you have to consider the source, and the motivation behind it, before you throw numbers around.

[kimouche]

Heh, 1.6 million Pro-Syrian protesters. I have no clue where he came up with those numbers. Mainstream and non-mainstream reports had the Pro-Syrian pegged in the hundreds of thousands - and much more than the initial anti-Syrian demonstrations, but there was never a number like 1.6mil being passed around.

1.6mil sounds like some purely pro-Syrian propaganda that got passed around and Lenin took the bait.

http://www.spymac.com/upload/gallery/f_0/user_5244/upload_368046.jpg
This is an estimation of the area covered by the pro-syrian demonstration

http://www.spymac.com/upload/gallery/f_0/user_5244/upload_368039.jpg
This is the area covered by the anti-syrian demonstration

http://www.spymac.com/upload/gallery/f_0/user_5244/upload_367972.jpg
This is just for the beauty of it (the anti-syrian of course...who the FU** would want in his right mind for these animals to occupy such a nice country.

The 1.6 million claim is a pile of horsesh**, there was at the maximum 500k, many of whom were forced to go by hezbollah, and counting the syrians that were bused in from syria.

At this point the UN investigation has concluded that there has been attempts to hide evidence in the killing of Hariri by the lebanese secret services, and it is well known that those same services cannot lift a finger without word from syria (don't believe me, believe al-jazeera, an ARAB newspaper, http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/29BC1F0B-A63D-4C72-9635-75C854A28168.htm)
I believe it sums it up pretty well.

[Nizark]

20 still says we had something to do with the assassination

[One?]

Do you know the lebanese more than me? hehe

All the opposition leaders said Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance no one rejected them. The only person that said they should be disarmed was aoun. Its you people who are spreading propaganda. The 1.6 million was estimated by foreign news agencies not the lebanese. If you watched the demonstration you would of seen it, but too bad fox and cnn didnt want to cover it.

People covered the whole downtown, the birdges and tunnels sarrounding the downtown and that was organized the 2 days before.

This demonstration called ALL the lebanese to go to the streets wether they are pro syria or against syrian presence in order to find out the truth. So alot of people went to the streets.

Get the facts straight geez!

[Navy]

One: I dont think that you more objective than anyone else.

No one is rejecting Hezbollah because ppl are afraid of them.
Hezbollah are playing with you.

And the good part: hezbollah is going down like anyother terrorist organisation: ETA; IRA.

[SavikLion]

How come all the lebanese experts can't back up what they are saying with proof but keep stating those that do are fools. So now Al Jazeera is a puppet news agency of the west. because they didn't come near the 1.6 million either, prove it or shut up. Maybe what your reading is a puppet of Syria.

[One?]

1) I am of lebanese origin
2) I watch lebanese tv everyday to know what the hell is going on
3) I know who the "opposition" is and what they want or why the want it.


No one is rejecting Hezbollah because ppl are afraid of them.
Hezbollah are playing with you.

And the good part: hezbollah is going down like anyother terrorist organisation: ETA; IRA.


No because hezbollah represents the majority of the shia in lebanon who happen to be at about %45+ of the population. Hezbollah has 12 members in parliament more than any other single party. All the lebanese parties said hezbollah is legitamte resistnace (thats why they lasted for so long) against the IDF occupation. Even hariri himself fought to keep them off the european terrorist list. Even those who are allies to hezbollah's political party such the SSNP, Kataeb (christian), franjiyi(christian), karami (sunni). All together they represent the majority in the parliament. The opposition is nothing if it wasnt for the druze representation who for 12 years where part of the government and worked with syria.

The only country that views them as terrorists is the US and Israel no one else....

The lebanese said the 1+ million came from AFP.

[S'13]

The only country that views them as terrorists is the US and Israel no one else....


And the EU ;)

[SavikLion]

I dont beleive the EU considers hezbollah a terrorist organization so it is currently not on the EU list. Like the Sinn Fein versus the IRA, they consider them a political movement

[replay]

1) I am of lebanese origin
2) I watch lebanese tv everyday to know what the hell is going on
3) I know who the "opposition" is and what they want or why the want it.

Being Lebanese and watching your news everyday doesn't make you any more correct than an impartial and objective outsider. Using your rationalization, the United States is making all the correct moves because I'm American, I watch the American news everyday, and I know what the hell is going on. I know who the "opposition" is and what they want or why they want it.



No because hezbollah represents the majority of the shia in lebanon who happen to be at about %45+ of the population. Hezbollah has 12 members in parliament more than any other single party. All the lebanese parties said hezbollah is legitamte resistnace (thats why they lasted for so long) against the IDF occupation. Even hariri himself fought to keep them off the european terrorist list. Even those who are allies to hezbollah's political party such the SSNP, Kataeb (christian), franjiyi(christian), karami (sunni). All together they represent the majority in the parliament. The opposition is nothing if it wasnt for the druze representation who for 12 years where part of the government and worked with syria.

Because opposition parties worked with the pro-Syrians does not mean they approve of them. This is why when presented with this historical opportunity, secularists, Sunni, Druze, and Christians want the Syrians out. Opposition people were willing to accomodate until the right time came along, and the right time presented itself with the outrage caused by the assasination.



The only country that views them as terrorists is the US and Israel no one else....

Funny, the UN has a resolution condeming Syrian and Militia interference. Hezbollah has a militia arm, does it not? Did Hezbollah not start out as a militia? Care to make more excuses?


The lebanese said the 1+ million came from AFP.

You and Lenin have yet to cite your sources. You claim you heard it from this place and that, or your friend's grandmother's boyfriend's sister's unborn baby. Savik has listed his sources regarding protest numbers, and they're from standard news organizations using the same new feeds you mention (AFP). Those numbers readily come available doing any type of search on the Internet. Your 1+mil number comes from the depths of the abyss or some blindly irrational pro-Syrian sympathizing party/person.

[kimouche]

1) I am of lebanese origin
2) I watch lebanese tv everyday to know what the hell is going on
3) I know who the "opposition" is and what they want or why the want it.


"One"...shut the f*** up. You don't even deserve to call yourself a lebanese. You don't know sh** about what is going on. The anti-syrian demonstration was three times what your pro-syrian (or should I say syrian) "protest" was. The truth is syria is going away and hezbollah is gonnna follow soon after. The lebanese people have had enough of these animals polluting their soil and sucking on their economy.

And don't you try to pull that "I am lebanese, I know what is truly going on" crap to me. I am lebanese and I have lived the 15 years of war in downtown beirut bombed by the syrian army while you were sitting in the beqaa valley kissing their a** like the loser that you are.

By supporting the syrian regime you are spitting in the face of the 150,000 lebanese that lost their lives in that conflict.

You don't deserve to be lebanese. The "opposition" represents the will of the true lebanese, to have a country that is ours, a democracy where you can think freely and express yourself without repression. If you want to live like a dog I highly encourage you to do it, you just need to cross the border into syria and they'll be happy to have another puppet on a leash.

200,000 shii came down from the beqaa valley (the home of hezbollah) to protest against syrian presence in lebanon. The opposition won. The lebanese people won. Isn't it weird that Nasrallah hasn't shown his face once since the protest on monsay? Hizbollah is embarrassed, and so are you!

[khukuri]

wow this thread will soon look like a balkan thread:)

I´m sorry for not replying earlier. Ive been sick the last day.

As you see, the figure of 1.6 mil is nothing I pulled out myself, whether its correct or not.

Most western resources have said for now 500k

My figures are from


Lebanon's state news agency estimated 1.5 million participated in Tuesday's rally, but that seemed high for the nation of 3.7 million. An Associated Press estimate put the crowd's size at 400,000 to 500,000.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40687&highlight=hezbollah


1) Hezbollah (shia muslims)
2) Amal Movement (shia muslims)
3) Kataeb (Martonite/Christians)
4) Franjiyi (Maronite/Christians)
5) Communist Party (Mixed)
6) Karami's party (sunni muslims)
7) A mix of people from all over lebanon christian, sunnis, and shiites!


this is official but from one...

with all those organisations its not strange to belive the big amount. Maybe not 1.6 mil but still a large amount.


And last but not least, kimouche, you dont own lebanon, you share it with alot of other lebaneese. Its not up to you to say whos lebanese or not, or who deserves to be just cuz they have another point of view. If you want to live in democracy, start to learning to coope wit other people views on what the country should do and not do.

[S'13]

I dont beleive the EU considers hezbollah a terrorist organization so it is currently not on the EU list. Like the Sinn Fein versus the IRA, they consider them a political movement

It is true that Hizbullah isn't on the EU terrorist list (yet), however:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3056692,00.html

[kimouche]

And last but not least, kimouche, you dont own lebanon, you share it with alot of other lebaneese. Its not up to you to say whos lebanese or not, or who deserves to be just cuz they have another point of view. If you want to live in democracy, start to learning to coope wit other people views on what the country should do and not do.

You can't be lebanese and say that you want to be occupied by a foreign power.

You don't know what it is like to be occupied so don't go giving me lessons about life.

[khukuri]

yes I know

[khukuri]

yes I know

[One?]

And last but not least, kimouche, you dont own lebanon, you share it with alot of other lebaneese. Its not up to you to say whos lebanese or not, or who deserves to be just cuz they have another point of view. If you want to live in democracy, start to learning to coope wit other people views on what the country should do and not do.

You can't be lebanese and say that you want to be occupied by a foreign power.

You don't know what it is like to be occupied so don't go giving me lessons about life.

I never once said syria should stay in lebanon. And we both know it hezbollah is supported by the majority wether you like it or not. And if you love the downtown so much it wouldn't have been there if it was for hezbollah fighting to kick out the IDF.

What party or tayar do you belong to or support? Because all of them said hezbollah is a resistance and dont agree with 1559.

Where from lebanon are you?

[kimouche]

And last but not least, kimouche, you dont own lebanon, you share it with alot of other lebaneese. Its not up to you to say whos lebanese or not, or who deserves to be just cuz they have another point of view. If you want to live in democracy, start to learning to coope wit other people views on what the country should do and not do.

You can't be lebanese and say that you want to be occupied by a foreign power.

You don't know what it is like to be occupied so don't go giving me lessons about life.

I never once said syria should stay in lebanon. And we both know it hezbollah is supported by the majority wether you like it or not. And if you love the downtown so much it wouldn't have been there if it was for hezbollah fighting to kick out the IDF.

What party or tayar do you belong to or support? Because all of them said hezbollah is a resistance and dont agree with 1559.

Where from lebanon are you?

If you believe that it is Hezbollah that removed the IDF from lebanon than you really are from lalaland. They exited by their own will 6 months after saying that they were gonna leave.

Hizbollah is not supported by the majority whether YOU like it or not.

I don't support any party, I support 1559 and I support peace with Israel because it is about time that lebanon stopped suffering for the sake of the palestinians who are at the origin of all its troubles.
The palestinians have an elected government now, we should let them take care of their own businesses with israel. Israel is no longer occupying lebanese territory and therefore there is no need for an armed "resistance".

I am from Beirut from your information.

[Ameen]

And last but not least, kimouche, you dont own lebanon, you share it with alot of other lebaneese. Its not up to you to say whos lebanese or not, or who deserves to be just cuz they have another point of view. If you want to live in democracy, start to learning to coope wit other people views on what the country should do and not do.

You can't be lebanese and say that you want to be occupied by a foreign power.

You don't know what it is like to be occupied so don't go giving me lessons about life.

Kimouche, you dont know anything about Lebanon except for the things you see on the news and internet. I know what it is like to be occupied by Syria and it is not like what you think it is like. They dont enforce curfews or disallow you from using certain roads or anything like that. The Syrian troops are in Lebanon to stabalize the country and they are not oppressing the people. The Syrians harrass the Christians and Druze at some checkpoints, but that is all.

Hezbollah is strongly supported in Lebanon especially by the Shia's and even Sunnis. I watched the pro-syrian protest live and i can tell u that the people were not forced to join that march. Dont believe everything u see on TV or read on the internet.

And the funny thing is that all over the news, it said the Beirut march was anti-syrian. Wrong, it was to mark the 1 month aniversary death of Rafik Harriri, but some people brought anti-syrian sediment. All my relatives attended that march and they told me this. That march was a mix or pro and anti syrian people.

[ExtraT]

So, people, how long do you think before they start killing each other again? My opinion, concidering the abundance of weapons there, and even if just 1% of people in these demonstration is ready to fight - pretty damn soon.

I guess it's score one for Syria and our good "pals" once again. Mayhem and chaos, standard procedure :(

[replay]

Kimouche, you dont know anything about Lebanon except for the things you see on the news and internet.

He just told you he had lived in Beirut. You both are Lebanese and have your own opinions. It's not because you are a self-proclaimed expert in all things Lebanese and he is not.



I know what it is like to be occupied by Syria and it is not like what you think it is like. They dont enforce curfews or disallow you from using certain roads or anything like that. The Syrian troops are in Lebanon to stabalize the country and they are not oppressing the people.

How long is it okay to occupy Lebanon with that excuse though? Israel pulled out a half decade ago. Syria's excuse for its own withdrawal is that it was following UN Resolution 1559, yet 1559 had long been ratified and Syria couldn't have cared less about it until Hariri's assassination and the massive protests.

Do you approve of the occupation? If you do, why are other 'occupations' so wrong to you? Is it a double-standard and are you being hypocritical?



The Syrians harrass the Christians and Druze at some checkpoints, but that is all.

Ahhh, they only harrass Christians and Druze, but THAT IS ALL! No big deal, right?! It's not like Druze are real Muslims, and Christians, who cares about Christians.



Hezbollah is strongly supported in Lebanon especially by the Shia's and even Sunnis. I watched the pro-syrian protest live and i can tell u that the people were not forced to join that march. Dont believe everything u see on TV or read on the internet.

Sounds like YOU weren't there either and you're chastising Kim for only what he "reads or sees on the Internet or TV". Have you ever considered that he being also Lebanese, being from Beirut, would also have relatives (like you do), that tell you what they witnessed? Obviously not because you treat him to be an idiot in Lebanese current events.

[Ameen]

I didnt read the whole topic, so i didnt find out he was Lebanese until now. That was my mistake.