Who killed JFK?

[jdbjdb]

There are several new specials about who shot JFK, with new evidence are they ever going to figure it out? I think everyone has been blamed for it, Cubans Soviets, President LBJ the list is endless

[Fargin]

Oliver Stone did.

BTW I read and like the "Cold six thousands"

[StarvingStudent47]

According to the new movie Bubba Hotep starring Bruce Campbell, JFK did not die from the wound. Instead, his skin was dyed so that he became African-American, and he was sent to a nursing home in small-town Texas--the same nursing home where Elvis currently is living, as well as an ancient Egyptian mummy who eats the souls of the residents.

This movie is FABULOUS.

To get back on-topic, though, I have never had any respect for the conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination. I think the answer is perfectly straightforward.

[ArmedPacifist]

Lee Harvey Oswald.

[jdbjdb]

he was sent to a nursing home in small-town Texas--the same nursing home where Elvis currently is living,
Must be the same nursing home where Leatherface has been living. rofl

[aFgHaNibOi]

I would have to say "terrorists." Seems like they've been behind a lot of things recently, like the California fires.

In conclusion, it was Osama...

I'm kiddin' ;) ...beats me...one theory is that it was his wife.

[Seiyuuki]

FOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WAS ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn it...I just realize I wasn't even born then.

[hood]

Everyone knows Bert did it.

http://www.bertisevil.tv/pages/bert000.htm

[Operation Ivy]

Ill go with the CIA

[Haiw]

might be anyone...anyway...there's lots of proof that it wasn't oswald...and even if it was..i read somewhere oswald was ex-cia or something.
anyway, i suppose no1 will never know... :roll:

[NcDeuce]

I haven't really done much research into it but some guy came to my high school a few years ago and he was some kind of JFK expert, some lawyer or attorney stuff. Anyways, he went off about his Zapruder tape, about how he was one of the few with the actual official research video or some shi*.

That was brutal...all I have to say...

And the dude decided to pass around autopsy photos of a mangled head...

Anyways back to the topic, I think Oswald was a part of it, but he definitely had help...probably some help from within the government. :(

R.I.P. JFK, you did a damn fine job on initiating SF.

[Trident-za]

I'd have to vote for Castro being the "help"... there has been some suggestion that JFK tried to have him assassinated just before the whole Bay of Pigs debacle.

[EvanL]

Mortimer? ;)

[b00n]

The Assassin formerly known as Prince


p-)

[Salty Dog]

it was oswald, he got 3 shots off in 6 seconds with an old italian bolt action rifle. Full Metal jacket told me so!

[Seraphim]

CNN Presents JFK
Sunday 8PM ET

[Ratamacue]

might be anyone...anyway...there's lots of proof that it wasn't oswald...and even if it was..i read somewhere oswald was ex-cia or something.
anyway, i suppose no1 will never know... :roll:

I believe Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine in Korea.

[11F5S]

Wrong.

In his own words, here's is his USMC "career" in a nutshell.

" I served in the USMC from Oct 1956 -Sept 1959, during which time I served in San Diego, Calif Oct 56 April 60. Camp Pendleton April-May 1957. Jacksonville, Fla May-June 1957. Santa Anna, Calif June-August 1957. And in Japan, August 1957-Nov. 1958. Santa Anna, El Toro air base Dec 1958-September 1959. 1 month on leave during Dec. 1958.
My stay in the far East included 8 months in Japan from Sept. 1957 to Nov 1957 and from May - Oct 1958. During Dec 57 to May 58, I was stationed at subic bay near Maibia, Phillipine Islands.
I served in Electronics school Jacksonville, Fla., and advanced radio school Biloxi, Mississippi. I also received my high school level diploma at the same time as my schooling in Biloxi, Miss."

Source the Warren Commission Report

[California Joe]

He was not a shooter.

[Ratamacue]

Wrong.

Roger that.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Ernie, Bert was framed.

[Dennis G]

it was oswald, he got 3 shots off in 6 seconds with an old italian bolt action rifle. Full Metal jacket told me so!

Just thought I would post some info on the rifle. Mannlicher-Carcano Italian military rifle if any of you ever got a chance to experiance this fine rifle you would find that it fires like the best of them the Mauser rifles

an interesting site about Oswaldhttp://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/19th_Issue/gtds.html<---This one is good lots of info.

this one about the gunhttp://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/19th_Issue/gtds.html

http://www.empirearms.com/SM6697-1.jpg



Yesterday, with the assistance of Sgt. Cecil Kirk and other members of the D.C. Police Department, the staff conducted a second test of the time necessary to fire two consecutive rounds from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle similar to that found on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. The test was conducted primarily to answer the question, would it have been possible for Lee Harvey Oswald to fire two shots in less than 1.7 seconds? Our test shows that it is.

As you recall, the estimated trigger pulls for the shots that the acoustics analysis identified as #1 and #2 occurred approximately 1.66 seconds apart. (See my previous memo on correlating the shots)

In addition, the test was designed to provide some insight into the difficulty Oswald would have encountered in firing three consecutive shots within 8.31 seconds, at least two of which were less than 1.7 seconds apart, and at least two of which hit the targets at the noted ranges.

From knowledge of the difficulty involved in so shooting, it may be possible indirectly to infer something about the probability, as opposed to the possibility, that Oswald did so. Nevertheless, even the most improbable event may have occurred. Thus, to answer the ultimate question of whether Oswald did fire the first two shots 1.66 seconds apart and hit his target at least once in so doing, as much information as available in addition to that gathered in yesterday's testing should obviously be taken into consideration. This, of course, was what the Committee did in reaching its decisions on December 29, 1978, when it reviewed the previous test firing data, together with other evidence such as the acoustics analysis, and the physical evidence (e.g. the three empty shell casings found on the TSBD 6th floor).

The test was conducted yesterday between 10:00 a.m. and noon at the Lorton Correctional facility firing range in Virginia. The National Archives, represented by Mr. David Paynter, brought the Oswald rifle (C.E. 139) for use in the test, but bench rest firing tests and operation of the weapon established that it was in too poor condition to be used. The Committee's Firearms Panel had previously noted the weapon's deterioration since 1963, and their final report reflects the specific nature of the deterioration). Consequently, a similar weapon was used for the actual testing. This rifle was one of the two previously used in August, 1978 for the tests in Dealey Plaza and will be turned over to the Archives as part of the Committee's files at the end of this month.

The shots were fired from a two story tower (approximately 20 feet high), at three targets, stationed from left to right at distances of 143, 165 and 266 feet from the tower. [1] The rifle was shot by four expert marksmen from the D.C.P.D., Officers D.M. Smith, B.L. Miller, Joe Masson, and E.E. Lewis, and two inexperienced staff members, deputy Chief Counsel Gary Cornwell and myself. Also present were Sgt. Cecil Kirk and Officer M.D. Gonzales, the D.C.P.D. Range Instructor. All members of the D.C.P.D. who fired the rifle had prior military experience. Officers Lewis and Smith had additional extensive civilian training in the use of rifles, while officers Miller and Masson had similar extensive training in the use of handguns. Each of the officers thus can be considered experts in the use of such weapons. Gary Cornwell and I have had neither military nor civilian training in the use of firearms, although I hunted with rifles as a boy, and Cornwell has hunted with rifles periodically throughout his adult life.

Each shooter practiced working the bolt for several minutes (usually 2 to 3 minutes) before shooting. All shots were fired using open iron sights. All times were determined by 3 handheld stop watches. only 35 shells were fired, including those expended in preliminary tests to determine if the weapon operated properly. [2] Each officer fired two series of three shots and Cornwell and I each fired one series of two shots.

The test established the following:

(1) The weapon can be quite accurately fired more rapidly using open iron sights than the FBI tests in 1963 indicated, where the telescopic sight was used. For example, Officer Masson, during one test series, hit the body silhouette at 143 and 165 feet on the first two shots, and missed the head portion of the silhouette at 266 feet on the third shot by approximately one inch (1"), taking 2.0 seconds between shots 1 and 2, and a total of less than 5 seconds for all three shots. Two other series, one by officer Smith and another, again, by Officer Masson, were fired in which only 1.9 seconds elapsed between two shots, and one of the three shots scored a "kill". [3]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] The distances were chosen upon the assumption that the 4th shot (Oswald's third) hit the President in the head at frame 312.
[2] We found that the weapon was characteristically difficult to operate, due to its poor basic design, and in addition, the particular weapon we used had badly worn riflings and therefore shot somewhat inaccurately.
[3] Normal target range body silhouettes, portraying an individual from waist to head, were used as targets. A "kill" was judged to be any shot that hit the silhouette. A "miss" was scored even if the bullet struck the target background, but not within the silhouette.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) It is apparently difficult, but not impossible -- at least with only minimal practice with the firearm used -- to fire 3 shots, at least two of which score "kills", with an elapsed time of 1.7 seconds or less between any two shots, even though in the limited testing conducted, no shooter achieved this degree of proficiency.

(3) It is not difficult to fire two consecutive shots from a Mannlicher-Carcano within 1.66 seconds, and to "point aim", if not carefully "sight" it, on the target of each shot. Cornwell fired the rifle twice in 1.2 seconds, and I fired it twice within 1.5 seconds. In both cases the second shot missed, but was close to the silhouette. In fact, my second shot only missed the silhouette by approximately 2". [4]

(4) There was ample time for Oswald to have fired 3 shots, hitting with two of them, within 8.31 seconds. All series of 3 shots were fired in less than 8 seconds, two were fired in less than 7 seconds, two in less than 6, and two in less than 5. [5]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4] The first shot in the test series, of course routinely scored "kills" since there was no time pressure imposed in aiming the rifle in preparation for that shot.
[5] In light of the difficulty involved in making the first two shots in 1.66, I note that showing that it is possible does not offer any reason why he would have acted so quickly after the first miss.

[Deuterium]

Each shooter practiced working the bolt for several minutes (usually 2 to 3 minutes) before shooting. All shots were fired using open iron sights. All times were determined by 3 handheld stop watches. only 35 shells were fired, including those expended in preliminary tests to determine if the weapon operated properly. [2] Each officer fired two series of three shots and Cornwell and I each fired one series of two shots.


2-3 MINUTES of practice??????????? Oh yeah this was a valid test.... BS

[IDFM203]

I would have to say "terrorists." Hey now that you mention it, it could have been Palestinian terrorists. I mean a Palestinian terrorist did in fact assassinate and kill JFK’s brother Robert in 1968 when he was running for president.


shalom :D

[Mortimer]

I would have to say "terrorists." Hey now that you mention it, it could have been Palestinian terrorists. I mean a Palestinian terrorist did in fact assassinate and kill JFK’s brother Robert in 1968 when he was running for president.


shalom :D
get **** ed

[IDFM203]

I would have to say "terrorists." Hey now that you mention it, it could have been Palestinian terrorists. I mean a Palestinian terrorist did in fact assassinate and kill JFK’s brother Robert in 1968 when he was running for president.


shalom :D
get f*** ed
what, did I say something untrue?!?

Ok now I am with the Americans, ban him, ban him ;) ;) ....just kidding :D

Hey now rather me despise you like others do, you actually amuse me with your immaturity.

Shalom :D

[Mortimer]

and you don't amuse me with your anti arab, jewish bull****.

just because you guys can't sought out your own ****ing problems doesn't mean you need to spread your anti sematic(arab) biasness around here.

you are an Arab hater....we get that now shut up.

[Ratamacue]

Ever consider seeing a shrink to get rid of all that built-up anger, Mort?

[mocking_loudly_died]

Anger is my drug of choice that and penile enhancing pills.....oh my secret shame.

[IDFM203]

And your immaturity never ceases to fail me…..boy are you amusing :lol:

I mean to my American friends, how can this child get you so riled up, I mean look at him now ;) :roll: ;)

Ok so I will indulge you with a few responses…………


and you don't amuse me with your anti arab, jewish bull****. yes I know you don’t like my defence of Jews but how am I anti Arab??? I mean I am anti Arab terrorist but not anti Arab.
If you can’t see that distinction well that’s you problem but I have been very clear on that. I have always said that I don’t hate all Arabs or all Muslims and I don’t want to see them all dead. I just hate the Arab terrorists that want to see me dead. I mean that’s perfectly natural and reasonable.


just because you guys can't sought out your own f*** problems doesn't mean you need to spread your anti sematic(arab) biasness around here. hahaha so now you don’t even grant us that anti Semitic word. I mean first you probably don’t except our right to exist and now even that word is not ours.

Yeah play all those word games all you want, the point is that anti Semitism against Jews around the world is despicable and it is far worse then what Muslims get.


you are an Arab hater.... no I am a Arab terrorist hater and if you cant recognise that distinction then you are a Jew hater for spewing your constant and negative sweeping garbage, which I guess you anyways don’t really mind me calling you that….oh well….


we get that now shut up. first, what’s this WE??? :roll: You got whatever you want to make up in YOUR head which is pretty common for you to do now. The facts however speaks other wise. Oh well……….. :roll:

Oh and YOU want me to shut up :roll: rofl rofl

Boy its interesting how angry and full of venom you have towards me……..I mean geez calm down. Its as if you’re foaming at the mouth just to respond to a Jew’s opinion.

Yes you still amuse me :lol:

Anyways take care and shalom :D

[mocking_loudly_died]

I think idfm203 is a pretty cool moderate kind of guy, I mean we have debated issues and most likely disagree with each other but thats cool.

Sorry Morty. ;)

[IDFM203]

I think idfm203 is a pretty cool moderate kind of guy, I mean we have debated issues and most likely disagree with each other but thats cool.

Sorry Morty. ;)Hey geez mate you have me blushing all inside now :oops: (that’s the best blushing smiley I can find :D )

But yeah I appreciate your kind words and yes although we don’t see eye to eye on some issues, I am sure as you or others have noticed, I can be engaging and level headed and I try to treat others as they treat me.

Shalom :D

[StarvingStudent47]

and you don't amuse me with your anti arab, jewish bull****.

just because you guys can't sought out your own f*** problems doesn't mean you need to spread your anti sematic(arab) biasness around here.

you are an Arab hater....we get that now shut up.

Mortimer, it is uncontested historical fact that Robert Kennedy was gunned down by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan on June 5, 1968. There were dozens of witnesses and Sirhan Sirhan was captured at the scene.

[MarineSniper8541]

As my user name states...I was a Marine Scout/Sniper. I live in the Dallas area. I took the tour of the 6th floor museum about a year ago, just after I got out of the Marine Corps.

I have EXTENSIVE training as a sniper and have attended the best sniper schools and received the best sniper training in the world. I also attended the Urban sniper course at the Special Operations Training Group which is a specialized course geared towards sniping in urban environments.

I know my capabilities and training are world class and the experience I have is by far better than any sniper trainee would have received in the early 1960's. Sniping has gone leaps and bounds since those days.

Having said that...you should have an idea of my credentials and that I have a pretty damn good idea what I am talking about.

When I took the tour of the 6th Floor Museum and I reached the area of the window the "shots" were supposedly taken from (it is now sealed off by a plexi-glass room built around the display) my heart sank. I stood in the very next window down from the actual window that the "shots" were "fired" from. The very instant I stood in that window and looked down to the street with the "X" painted on the road indicating where Kennedy was when the first shot struck him...I knew it was all BULL****.

Not only would Oswald have fired from an elevated position, he was firing at a target that was only half exposed, was moving, was moving in an arc (the road bends out, away and down from the window), and was accelerating(not because of the shots yet).
Also, the time of target exposure was very limited. When the vehicle made the right turn onto Commerce from Houston St. he could not see it until it was right below him. He also had to contend with trees that were in front of the window (although much shorter then than now, they obscured the target more than than now). Then when he could finally see Kennedy, he had to aquire him in his scope, (not easy to do with the field of view the scope that he had offered), track him...then this is where it becomes impossible make those 3 shots.

As posted above, static tests say that the shots can be fired in the time stated. Those tests, however were not taken at a moving target or in the same conditions or shooter stress that would have existed on that day.The target was not just moving away, not not just moving out, not just moving downward, not just accelerating...but all of those at the same time.

In short, I am one of the best trained snipers in the world, I know what I can and can't do and what my gear can and can't do. Even with my training, if you hand me a 6.5 Manlicher with a cheap surplus Japanese scope that was actually zeroed to the weapon (tests of the actual rifle showed it to be zeroed more than 6 inches off center at 100 yards...bumping a scope does not throw it off that badly at 100 yds.)

...not I or any of the snipers I served with could make that difficult of a shot in those time contraints and score hits like that with that equipment oR THE EQUIPMENT WE USE TODAY.

IT CANT BE DONE WITH THAT RIFLE/SCOPE COMBO IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME ON A TARGET MOVING IN AN ARC AT THAT SPEED FROM THAT ELEVATION!

When I left Dealy Plaza that day...I was almost sick to my stomach. I had seen all of the movies and heard all of the "conspiracty theory" hooplah.
I can tell you all right now...it did not happen the way people have been told it did.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

If all else fails blame bastardchild ;)
My theory he was killed by CIA operatives to make way for a new President. I dont think someone taking advanced electronics can get 3 shots off in 2 seconds. Most likely there was 2-3 snipers from different positions using the same caliber rifle (without a scope) with the same training. Nobody could hit a moving vehicle, and a half exposed target from that angle without some serious help. In all I pretty much agree with MarineSniper8541.

[Trident-za]

MarineSniper8541

That was a very interesting post! I obviously cannot verify that you are who you say you are (you have not stated your name and rank- this makes anything you say suspect according to some people's rationale :roll:), but I found your comments to be quite an eyeopener.... thanks.

I should just mention that I believe you, and your comments - the comment about rank/name was a gentle dig at others ;)

[Argyll]

Most Military guys who are even classed as good shots,never mind the hard core sniper guys,would have never had been able to pull that shot off,in a thousands shots,the Law of averages says that it's 99.9% impossible by todays standards,so when you hear a bona fide USMC sniper tell you it's nigh on impossible,well I'll take his word over it ,than that of some black suited ,rayban wearing goon!!

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Pretty much but the question now is why they would cover it up? Why would the US government hide/blame it on another that obviously doesnt have the skills to make shot(s) like that? Why would they wanna off there President? Was it a Fidel Castro conspiracy? This obvioulsy raises more questions then answers...This probably will remain one of the great conspiracy's around...You're guess is as good as mine...Thanks for your professional insight MarineSniper8541. I personally can tell when someones full of ****, MarineSniper8541 seems to have insight that only a professional can have. Either way im convinced...feel free to formulate your own opinions though.

[usa320]

My bets are on Mortimer or Oscar the Grouch.

rofl

On a serious note, id say Oswald, with help comming from KGB or Cuban agents.

[Vance]

Have you guys never heard of the Badgeman....

[Dalleer]

Now, first of all, I'd say it was Elvis along with Richard Nixon!



http://www.jokewallpaper.com/images/elnixon1.jpg


Yeah. Here is the proof. They're all buddy-buddy now!

[USMarine3521]

As my user name states...I was a Marine Scout/Sniper. I live in the Dallas area. I took the tour of the 6th floor museum about a year ago, just after I got out of the Marine Corps.

I have EXTENSIVE training as a sniper and have attended the best sniper schools and received the best sniper training in the world. I also attended the Urban sniper course at the Special Operations Training Group which is a specialized course geared towards sniping in urban environments.

I know my capabilities and training are world class and the experience I have is by far better than any sniper trainee would have received in the early 1960's. Sniping has gone leaps and bounds since those days.

Having said that...you should have an idea of my credentials and that I have a pretty damn good idea what I am talking about.

When I took the tour of the 6th Floor Museum and I reached the area of the window the "shots" were supposedly taken from (it is now sealed off by a plexi-glass room built around the display) my heart sank. I stood in the very next window down from the actual window that the "shots" were "fired" from. The very instant I stood in that window and looked down to the street with the "X" painted on the road indicating where Kennedy was when the first shot struck him...I knew it was all BULL****.

Not only would Oswald have fired from an elevated position, he was firing at a target that was only half exposed, was moving, was moving in an arc (the road bends out, away and down from the window), and was accelerating(not because of the shots yet).
Also, the time of target exposure was very limited. When the vehicle made the right turn onto Commerce from Houston St. he could not see it until it was right below him. He also had to contend with trees that were in front of the window (although much shorter then than now, they obscured the target more than than now). Then when he could finally see Kennedy, he had to aquire him in his scope, (not easy to do with the field of view the scope that he had offered), track him...then this is where it becomes impossible make those 3 shots.

As posted above, static tests say that the shots can be fired in the time stated. Those tests, however were not taken at a moving target or in the same conditions or shooter stress that would have existed on that day.The target was not just moving away, not not just moving out, not just moving downward, not just accelerating...but all of those at the same time.

In short, I am one of the best trained snipers in the world, I know what I can and can't do and what my gear can and can't do. Even with my training, if you hand me a 6.5 Manlicher with a cheap surplus Japanese scope that was actually zeroed to the weapon (tests of the actual rifle showed it to be zeroed more than 6 inches off center at 100 yards...bumping a scope does not throw it off that badly at 100 yds.)

...not I or any of the snipers I served with could make that difficult of a shot in those time contraints and score hits like that with that equipment oR THE EQUIPMENT WE USE TODAY.

IT CANT BE DONE WITH THAT RIFLE/SCOPE COMBO IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME ON A TARGET MOVING IN AN ARC AT THAT SPEED FROM THAT ELEVATION!

When I left Dealy Plaza that day...I was almost sick to my stomach. I had seen all of the movies and heard all of the "conspiracty theory" hooplah.
I can tell you all right now...it did not happen the way people have been told it did.

very interesting! thanks for your professional judgement, now im going to go to bed and think of all the possibilities :lol:

[hahaha]

Theroy one: JFK was about to start pulling troops out of the conflict in Vietnam. Major arms companies were prepared to lose 'billions' for all the weapons they were going (and did) experiment with and design.

Theroy two: US organised crime families (Mafia) 'assisted' in getting JFK into the presidential seat, with the agreement that the crime families were to be given special treatment and considerations. Upon entering the White House JFK places his brother (Robert) in as the Attorney General (or whatever position is in charge of all things legal in US govt.), however the first task that Robert performs is too 'go-after' organised crime.

[One?]

JFK forced Israel to get its Nuclear facilities inspected for WMD. To make a long story short he was the first and last president to do so.


Preparing for Israeli flame war in 5...4...3...2..1...



Salam :D

[tthiel]

What a crock of ****. You obviously know nothing about shooting bolt action rifles especially a piece of **** like this one. BTW Oswald was a lousy shot in the Marine Corps

Just thought I would post some info on the rifle. Mannlicher-Carcano Italian military rifle if any of you ever got a chance to experiance this fine rifle you would find that it fires like the best of them the Mauser rifles

an interesting site about Oswaldhttp://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/19th_Issue/gtds.html<---This one is good lots of info.

this one about the gunhttp://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/19th_Issue/gtds.html

http://www.empirearms.com/SM6697-1.jpg



Yesterday, with the assistance of Sgt. Cecil Kirk and other members of the D.C. Police Department, the staff conducted a second test of the time necessary to fire two consecutive rounds from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle similar to that found on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. The test was conducted primarily to answer the question, would it have been possible for Lee Harvey Oswald to fire two shots in less than 1.7 seconds? Our test shows that it is.

As you recall, the estimated trigger pulls for the shots that the acoustics analysis identified as #1 and #2 occurred approximately 1.66 seconds apart. (See my previous memo on correlating the shots)

In addition, the test was designed to provide some insight into the difficulty Oswald would have encountered in firing three consecutive shots within 8.31 seconds, at least two of which were less than 1.7 seconds apart, and at least two of which hit the targets at the noted ranges.

From knowledge of the difficulty involved in so shooting, it may be possible indirectly to infer something about the probability, as opposed to the possibility, that Oswald did so. Nevertheless, even the most improbable event may have occurred. Thus, to answer the ultimate question of whether Oswald did fire the first two shots 1.66 seconds apart and hit his target at least once in so doing, as much information as available in addition to that gathered in yesterday's testing should obviously be taken into consideration. This, of course, was what the Committee did in reaching its decisions on December 29, 1978, when it reviewed the previous test firing data, together with other evidence such as the acoustics analysis, and the physical evidence (e.g. the three empty shell casings found on the TSBD 6th floor).

The test was conducted yesterday between 10:00 a.m. and noon at the Lorton Correctional facility firing range in Virginia. The National Archives, represented by Mr. David Paynter, brought the Oswald rifle (C.E. 139) for use in the test, but bench rest firing tests and operation of the weapon established that it was in too poor condition to be used. The Committee's Firearms Panel had previously noted the weapon's deterioration since 1963, and their final report reflects the specific nature of the deterioration). Consequently, a similar weapon was used for the actual testing. This rifle was one of the two previously used in August, 1978 for the tests in Dealey Plaza and will be turned over to the Archives as part of the Committee's files at the end of this month.

The shots were fired from a two story tower (approximately 20 feet high), at three targets, stationed from left to right at distances of 143, 165 and 266 feet from the tower. [1] The rifle was shot by four expert marksmen from the D.C.P.D., Officers D.M. Smith, B.L. Miller, Joe Masson, and E.E. Lewis, and two inexperienced staff members, deputy Chief Counsel Gary Cornwell and myself. Also present were Sgt. Cecil Kirk and Officer M.D. Gonzales, the D.C.P.D. Range Instructor. All members of the D.C.P.D. who fired the rifle had prior military experience. Officers Lewis and Smith had additional extensive civilian training in the use of rifles, while officers Miller and Masson had similar extensive training in the use of handguns. Each of the officers thus can be considered experts in the use of such weapons. Gary Cornwell and I have had neither military nor civilian training in the use of firearms, although I hunted with rifles as a boy, and Cornwell has hunted with rifles periodically throughout his adult life.

Each shooter practiced working the bolt for several minutes (usually 2 to 3 minutes) before shooting. All shots were fired using open iron sights. All times were determined by 3 handheld stop watches. only 35 shells were fired, including those expended in preliminary tests to determine if the weapon operated properly. [2] Each officer fired two series of three shots and Cornwell and I each fired one series of two shots.

The test established the following:

(1) The weapon can be quite accurately fired more rapidly using open iron sights than the FBI tests in 1963 indicated, where the telescopic sight was used. For example, Officer Masson, during one test series, hit the body silhouette at 143 and 165 feet on the first two shots, and missed the head portion of the silhouette at 266 feet on the third shot by approximately one inch (1"), taking 2.0 seconds between shots 1 and 2, and a total of less than 5 seconds for all three shots. Two other series, one by officer Smith and another, again, by Officer Masson, were fired in which only 1.9 seconds elapsed between two shots, and one of the three shots scored a "kill". [3]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] The distances were chosen upon the assumption that the 4th shot (Oswald's third) hit the President in the head at frame 312.
[2] We found that the weapon was characteristically difficult to operate, due to its poor basic design, and in addition, the particular weapon we used had badly worn riflings and therefore shot somewhat inaccurately.
[3] Normal target range body silhouettes, portraying an individual from waist to head, were used as targets. A "kill" was judged to be any shot that hit the silhouette. A "miss" was scored even if the bullet struck the target background, but not within the silhouette.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) It is apparently difficult, but not impossible -- at least with only minimal practice with the firearm used -- to fire 3 shots, at least two of which score "kills", with an elapsed time of 1.7 seconds or less between any two shots, even though in the limited testing conducted, no shooter achieved this degree of proficiency.

(3) It is not difficult to fire two consecutive shots from a Mannlicher-Carcano within 1.66 seconds, and to "point aim", if not carefully "sight" it, on the target of each shot. Cornwell fired the rifle twice in 1.2 seconds, and I fired it twice within 1.5 seconds. In both cases the second shot missed, but was close to the silhouette. In fact, my second shot only missed the silhouette by approximately 2". [4]

(4) There was ample time for Oswald to have fired 3 shots, hitting with two of them, within 8.31 seconds. All series of 3 shots were fired in less than 8 seconds, two were fired in less than 7 seconds, two in less than 6, and two in less than 5. [5]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4] The first shot in the test series, of course routinely scored "kills" since there was no time pressure imposed in aiming the rifle in preparation for that shot.
[5] In light of the difficulty involved in making the first two shots in 1.66, I note that showing that it is possible does not offer any reason why he would have acted so quickly after the first miss. [/quote]

[IDFM203]

JFK forced Israel to get its Nuclear facilities inspected for WMD. To make a long story short he was the first and last president to do so. actually that’s true. But Israel was not really worried about that. I mean they had built fake walls and doorways so as the inspectors would not know excatlly how far israel had gotten or where they were at. But anyways there was no nuclear weapons at the time. They were just hiding the program.

But hey you might as well blame the Mossad for JFK’s killing I mean besides this, there is almost not an event in the past fifty years whereas some website or some article does not blame the mossad for. (I can only thank you for alerting me to the fact that this retarded conspiracy theory does actually exist out there ;) , I mean I had heard a lot of other crazy things but that one was a new one for me :roll: )



Preparing for Israeli flame war in 5...4...3...2..1... nope no flame war (sorry ;) )

Secondly this 5,4,3,2,1, thing has already been used before so it’s a tired and old tactic :roll:

Lastly I understand that it all fair considering that I brought down the FACT that a Palestinian terrorist did in FACT assassinate JFK’s brother Robert (RFK) in 1968 and perhaps etc… so I concede that your perfectly right to bring up your twist on this (in fact nice try there but no cigar ;) )


Salam :D shalom to you as well :D

Ok now my turn to use this old tactic ;) ………..preparing for the anti Israeli (eer only “anti Zionist” ;) ) flame war in 5...4...3...2..1...

[Haiw]

actually that’s true. But Israel was not really worried about that. I mean they had built fake walls and doorways so as the inspectors would not know excatlly how far israel had gotten or where they were at. But anyways there was no nuclear weapons at the time. They were just hiding the program.
hmmm...aren't there 'certain' countries that are attacked or threatened because of this kind of behaviour?
damn...gotta love double standards

[MarineSniper8541]

thiel,

Who are you refering to when you say they "know nothing about shooting bolt action rifles"?

I sure hope it's not me. You might want to reconsider before you accuse a Scout/Sniper with over ten years of experience and three combat tours of being ignorant regarding the very type of rifle we use. How much training do you have? Where did you receive it? On the internet? :lol:

That manlicher rifle is a piece of ****. Although reliable for the cost it took to produce them, the rifle itself was not accurate, and had durability issues. The manlicher-carcano that Oswald used was not even able to hold 2 minutes of angle at 100 yards when tested.

[IDFM203]

actually that’s true. But Israel was not really worried about that. I mean they had built fake walls and doorways so as the inspectors would not know excatlly how far israel had gotten or where they were at. But anyways there was no nuclear weapons at the time. They were just hiding the program.
hmmm...aren't there 'certain' countries that are attacked or threatened because of this kind of behaviour?
damn...gotta love double standardsaahhh I was waiting for that ;)

Yes the U.S. and all the European as well as Russian nations have nuclear weapons and yet they all demand other ones to not.

They have them and as a result there have been less wars. (Russia and the U.S. is a good example of nuclear weapons preventing all out wars)

The difference is that there are nations that are responsible (like the above example)with them and in Israel’s case, they prevent wars as well(again Israel has had them now for thirty years and since then the Arabs have not attacked as they would if Israel did not have that deterrent)

While there are nations that are not and have in fact used those weapons in a negative and not in a peaceful way. Iraq had used those weapons before and Iran will as well (as they are clear about their intentions to wipe off Israel from all Jews)

Shalom :D

[James]

One thing I wondered after watching the Zapruder film is, if JFK was hit from behind, is why the back of his skull blew out, rather than his face.

[James]

Oliver Stone did.

BTW I read and like the "Cold six thousands"

You will LOVE American Tabloid by the same author.

[StarvingStudent47]

But hey you might as well blame the Mossad for JFK’s killing I mean besides this, there is almost not an event in the past fifty years whereas some website or some article does not blame the mossad for. (I can only thank you for alerting me to the fact that this retarded conspiracy theory does actually exist out there ;) , I mean I had heard a lot of other crazy things but that one was a knew one for me :roll: )


The Mossad shot Abraham Lincoln. John Wilks Booth was just framed as part of an international Zionist conspiracy. General Sherman knew the truth. That's why he threw the Jews out of the Union Army. The Mossad didn't get him, no sir.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[martinexsquaddie]

you could probably get 2 rounds off from a lee enfield in two seconds but the second one would'nt be aimed. and mausers are slower
One lucky shot but not two

[aFgHaNibOi]

It was King Fahad of Saudi Arabia.

[Vance]

It was King Fahad of Saudi Arabia.


It was your father eh?


;)

[aFgHaNibOi]

It was King Fahad of Saudi Arabia.


It was your father eh?


;)

rofl

No, my dad's Mulla Omar, not that fat drunk Fahad. ;)

Just kiddin'. :lol:

[ibstolidude]

you could probably get 2 rounds off from a lee enfield in two seconds but the second one would'nt be aimed. and mausers are slower
One lucky shot but not two

[ibstolidude]

I knew it was all BULL****.

Not only would Oswald have fired from an elevated position, he was firing at a target that was only half exposed, was moving, was moving in an arc (the road bends out, away and down from the window), and was accelerating(not because of the shots yet).
Also, the time of target exposure was very limited. When the vehicle made the right turn onto Commerce from Houston St. he could not see it until it was right below him. He also had to contend with trees that were in front of the window (although much shorter then than now, they obscured the target more than than now). Then when he could finally see Kennedy, he had to aquire him in his scope, (not easy to do with the field of view the scope that he had offered), track him...then this is where it becomes impossible make those 3 shots.

As posted above, static tests say that the shots can be fired in the time stated. Those tests, however were not taken at a moving target or in the same conditions or shooter stress that would have existed on that day.The target was not just moving away, not not just moving out, not just moving downward, not just accelerating...but all of those at the same time.

In short, I am one of the best trained snipers in the world, I know what I can and can't do and what my gear can and can't do. Even with my training, if you hand me a 6.5 Manlicher with a cheap surplus Japanese scope that was actually zeroed to the weapon (tests of the actual rifle showed it to be zeroed more than 6 inches off center at 100 yards...bumping a scope does not throw it off that badly at 100 yds.)

...not I or any of the snipers I served with could make that difficult of a shot in those time contraints and score hits like that with that equipment oR THE EQUIPMENT WE USE TODAY.

IT CANT BE DONE WITH THAT RIFLE/SCOPE COMBO IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME ON A TARGET MOVING IN AN ARC AT THAT SPEED FROM THAT ELEVATION!
.--\
I hate to burst your bubble it has been done...

to the same measurements of angle/height/distance and even window position
at the same vehicle speeds
with the same rifle, scope and even ammunition combination
..

it was then attempted at the same location (at the actual location) using a visible laser built into a MC rifle on live targets, in the same type car, at the same convoy speed, but at night so that the laser could be recorded.
--it is all on video and available

(**** several years ago the entertainers Penn and Teller did it for ****s and giggles themselves much less the experts that re-created the events...)

Ohh and they also tested out other theories to include but not limited storm drains that had zero view of the street, and the storm drains from the overpass that DID NOT exist at the time of the Kennedy assasignation...they also timed the 90 second walk (from firing to hiding the rifle, to walking the stairs) of Lee Harvey from floor 6 of the bldg to the 2nd floor break room where he was spotted by cops reacting to the assasignation...also using witness timelines and actually walking the routes used by Oswald that day (using the same style of clothes, same height/weight/age man and carry the same style sub nosed revolver) up to the murder of the police officer that lead to his immediate arrest.

Too the surprise of most of the testers everything was done with a fair amount of ease and on first attempts....the only real hitch was that as they continued to record shots with the MC rifle they continued to have misfires with the weapon.

ohh and 2 MOA all though not exactly mil spec or match grade will hit a head at 100 yards.

[Vance]

Grassy Knoll goddammit.

[JF45]

The infamous vast right-wing conspiracy? Or maybe ninjas.

[martinexsquaddie]

I remember asking the guys manning the big trailers supporting the nonexsistant tr-21 that were not flying from cyprus :lol:
are you guys CIA? they were very non commital :|
"well weve just one question"
yes?
did you guys slot JFK or what
strangely we did'nt get an answer woot

[Operation Ivy]

It was the CIA caused they were pissed at JFK for the Bay of Pigs so they hired at least 2 guys to kill him. Oswald and someone else. I think Oswald got off the first 2 shots,but the head shot had to come from the front the way the his head moved back and the 2nd "shooter" was proably in the grassy knolls(sp) becuase it was a clear shot for the second "shooter"

Then Jack Ruby killed Oswald because the CIA didnt want want Oswald to say anything

[Vance]

http://members.optushome.com.au/tnorth/badgeman1.jpg

[MARINO]

Michael Jackson

[aFgHaNibOi]

http://members.optushome.com.au/tnorth/badgeman1.jpg

Wha'ts that supposed to prove?

[aFgHaNibOi]

Michael Jackson

He's innocent! :D

[tooms]

the JFK killer is the smoking man, all the truth is explained in X-files

[Vance]

http://members.optushome.com.au/tnorth/badgeman1.jpg

Wha'ts that supposed to prove?


Don't you see the muzzle flash?

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

My personal opinion was that LBJ was behind it. JFK realized getting involved in Nam was a very bad idea and wanted to pull his advisors out asap, as LBJ wanted a war for money. I can't remember what show it was, but a lady that worked with LBJ asked him if he had anything to do with the assassination and LBJ became very upset, punching walls and spewing curse words, but after he settled down, muttered something to the tune that he HAD the resources to have the president killed if he had wanted. If you were a vice president, hell bent on getting rich off a war that was about to be stopped, your only move to keep that path to war in motion would to be the president himself, hence his motivation to have the assassination on JFk. There are tons of theories and I don't think we will ever know, but that is my personal opinion based on what I've learned.