2 U.S. Black Hawks Crash in Mosul, Iraq - 12killed

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20031115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter


BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. Army helicopter crashed in northern Iraq (news - web sites) on Saturday, the military said. There was no immediate word on the cause of the crash or possible casualties.



"A quick reaction force is securing area," said a military spokesman who spoke on condition of anonymity. The spokesman did not know the type of helicopter that went down.


Sixteen U.S. servicemembers were killed on Nov. 2 when a Chinook helicopter carrying dozens of soldiers to leave was struck by a missile near Fallujah.


A Blackhawk helicopter was shot down on Nov. 7 near Tikrit, killing all six soldiers aboard.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031115/ts_nm/iraq_helicopter_dc&cid=564&ncid=1480


U.S. Black Hawk Crashes in Iraqi City of Mosul


MOSUL, Iraq (*******) - A U.S. helicopter crashed in a civilian area in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul Saturday and American soldiers sealed off the area, witnesses said.


A U.S. military spokesman said initial reports indicated that a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter had come down in northern Iraq (news - web sites) and that a rapid reaction force was securing the area and investigating. There was no immediate word on casualties.

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20031115/ts_nm/iraq_helicopter_dc


U.S. Black Hawk Crashes in Iraqi City of Mosul
By Seb Walker

MOSUL, Iraq (*******) - A U.S. helicopter crashed in a civilian area in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul Saturday and American soldiers sealed off the area, witnesses said.


Some local witnesses said two helicopters may have collided and crashed but the U.S. military said it could not confirm this.


A U.S. military spokesman said initial reports indicated that a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter had come down in northern Iraq (news - web sites) and that a rapid reaction force was securing the area and investigating. He gave no further details.


One witness reported seeing two helicopters in trouble. "I was watching TV when I heard a large explosion," said local man Mohammad Badran. "I looked outside the window and saw two helicopters.


"One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas."


The Black Hawk is the U.S. Army's frontline utility helicopter, designed to carry 11 combat-ready assault troops, and is also used for medical evacuations.


Three U.S. helicopters have been shot down in Iraq in the past three weeks for an overall loss of 22 lives.


In the deadliest single strike on American troops since the start of the war to oust Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), a U.S. Chinook helicopter was shot down west of Baghdad on November 2, killing 16 soldiers.


Five days later a U.S. Black Hawk was shot down near Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, killing all six people aboard.


On October 25, guerrillas brought down a Black Hawk in Tikrit, hitting one of its engines with an RPG. The helicopter made an emergency landing and all five crew members escaped before it was engulfed in flames.


Insurgents now mounting some 30 attacks a day have killed 160 U.S. soldiers in Iraq since President Bush (news - web sites) declared major combat over on May 1. U.S. forces in Baghdad have hit back with "Operation Iron Hammer" for the past three days, using air strikes to destroy buildings they say were used by insurgents.

[duck]

******* has more:

Two U.S. Helicopters Down in North Iraq, Official Says




MOSUL, Iraq (*******) - Two U.S. helicopters crashed in the northern Iraqi town of Mosul Saturday, a senior Iraqi security official said.

"All I can say is that two helicopters have crashed," the official, who declined to be identified, said near the scene. American soldiers have cordoned off the area.

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20031115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter


MOSUL, Iraq - Twelve coalition soldiers were killed when two U.S. helicopters crashed in this northern Iraqi city on Saturday, the U.S. military said. There was no word on the cause of the crash but witnesses said the two aircraft collided in mid-air.


Nine soldiers were injured in the crash that occurred at 1830 local time, said a military spokesman. He said the two helicopters belonged to the 101st Airborne Division which controls northern Iraq (news - web sites).


Witnesses said the helicopters came down in Borsa, a residential neighborhood in Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city.


"I was leaving the mosque and I heard a boom," said Hani, a witness who only gave his first name. He said two helicopters collided in mid-air before one crashed onto the roof of a house, adding that he did not know what happened to the other aircraft.


"The crash site has been secured by the U.S. military, Iraqi police and firefighters," said the military spokesman who spoke on condition of anonymity.


Sixteen U.S. service members were killed on Nov. 2 when a Chinook helicopter carrying dozens of soldiers on leave was apparently downed by insurgents near the city of Fallujah west of Baghdad.


A Black Hawk helicopter was shot down on Nov. 7 near the central town of Tikrit, killing all six soldiers aboard.

[Seraphim]

Thanks everyone for ignoring my post.

[Tom.G]

More helicopters down! This guerilla war is becoming more and more violent. I think that if US start being more aggrssive were going to be seeing a lot more of this type of thing.

[ArmedPacifist]

More helicopters down! This guerilla war is becoming more and more violent. I think that if US start being more aggrssive were going to be seeing a lot more of this type of thing.

agit, they collided.

[Minjin]

I saw a news report that mentioned that eyewitnesses saw one of the hawks get hit by ground fire (missile?) and then it in turn hit the other hawk....any confirmation?

[Seiyuuki]

What is with all the helicopters crashing these past few days?

It was...the usual here and there...then BAM, out of nowhere...all these helicopters crashing and colliding!!!

Oh yeah, this may be incorrect, but I also heard somewhere that helicopter crashes are the number one cause of fatalities in the military during war and peace time.

[Ratamacue]

They're getting shot down. Reports of this one say that one helicopter was hit by a missile or RPG, then collided with the other.

[AFACadet]

Its nothing new really. Since the first use of combat helicopters, they have proven to be the most vunerable of just about all military equipment. That is for ALL countries, in ALL years since Vietnam, in every situation. You all probably knew about the a** kicking that was given by the IAF over the Bekaa Valley in 1982. But Israel lost just about as many helicopters as everyone else in that war.

Helicopter's greatly increased mobility and speed easily counteract that though.

[IDFM203]

You all probably knew about the a** kicking that was given by the IAF over the Bekaa Valley in 1982. But Israel lost just about as many helicopters as everyone else in that war.

. yes but we are not talking about a full scale war or a semi scale as that was or about this war when it was considered a full scale war. No we are talking about after the fall of Baghdad when this war turned to a LIC (low intensity conflict) type of a war like with what Israel has been facing for three years. They are both now a guerrilla/insurgency type of wars which rely on hit and runs, and ambushes and snipings etc. more so then all out assaults by the enemy. I don’t believe Israel has lost one helicopter in the past three years and that is with numerous missions and with the Palestinians having RPG’s as well.

besides the enemy being able to bring down U.S. helicopters at an alarming high rate, there have been some crashes throughout the U.S. deployment in iraq, that had nothing to do with the enemy and its those as well that I feel is at an alarming high rate.

I will just repost what I posted in a duplicate thread…

.”RIP to the families and to those brave soldiers that were killed :(

Now with that said I do have some constructive criticism and don’t get all jumpy for I say this out of genuine concern and not out of the usual American bashing that some have here.

In my book there have been to many helicopter crashes or ones brought down by RPG’s or as some have alleged small arms fire. In my opinion, the level since the war started is simply unacceptable and I believe a lot of it was avoidable and I am forced to now question the training these pilots are getting. This is not a swipe against the U.S. military for I do in fact recognise them as the greatest military in the world, but it just seems to me though that the helicopter pilot training and more specifically, training for flying in the middle east is a bit deficient.

I am curious to hear your thoughts.........”

Shalom :D

[Ratamacue]

I don't believe US training or maintenance or anything is at fault here. It seems as though most of these attacks have been done with SAM's, a weapon much more effective against choppers than RPG's or anything Palestinians have access to.

[IDFM203]

I don't believe US training or maintenance or anything is at fault here. It seems as though most of these attacks have been done with SAM's, a weapon much more effective against choppers than RPG's or anything Palestinians have access to. Yes if it is strictly done by SAM’s then I stand corrected but from a lot of the reporting here or else where, a lot of it has been done by rpg's or other factors but not with SAM’s and also there have been some crashes that have happened since this deployment that had nothing to do with the enemy or its actions.

I mean this very incident with the two helicopters that this thread is about is about rpg’s and the other just crashing.

Shalom :D

[AFACadet]

Read my post again.


I'll quote the important part:


That is for ALL countries, in ALL years since Vietnam, in every situation.

Notice the 'every situation' part. This includes LIC or even MOOTW. While these crashes are 'tragic' (if you can call it that), they are nothing unusual or out of the ordinary.


Has current culture gotten so soft (including the military), that they forget the days when 60 bombers were shot down on a single raid (600 men) in about 3 hours or 60,000 people died in a couple hours span in the trenches--and that was one day of a single portion of wars that lasted for years.


I'm extremely happy that nothing like that is happing now, but this stuff is being completly blown out of proportion. The media is able to report on each and every incident. Imagine what would happen if the media reported car crashes (each and every one) like they do for people in a combat environoment who knew they had the posiblility of dying by hostile fire when they signed their names on the dotted lines in the first place.

These few helicopter crashes (which like I said before are sad because of the loss of life), really don't add up to much in the long run.

[IDFM203]

I think you are not understanding my post. I think that’s due to the usual anti Americanism and sinister reasoning behind these criticisms by some of the other members that has become the norm that is now clouding your understanding of what I am saying. I supported this war and I support the U.S. and its actions and I belive that the U.S. resolve is strong and should remain strong, with that said, the number of crashes of these highly modern military helicopters that had nothing to do with enemy fire and the number of enemy hits with rpg’s (not SAM’s) is at a high alarming rate. In my book, excluding the all out war portion of this war, more then two or three is simply unacceptable (and there have been more) and I say that not as some loss of resolve or any other political reason but out of a genuine concern for the U.S. helicopter fleet and like I said before, I am forced to question the training of these pilots especially their training for the middle east and its terrain and climate.


While I concede everything is being blown out of proportion and being made political by the media, I don’t think my criticisms and observations reflect those media intentions nor am I saying it from some negative political perspective.

The fact is that with these types of helicopters, in my opinion the amount of take downs and crashes is at a high level. I do believe that the amount has been high for the short amount of time that the U.S. has been in that region. I think it’s a fair observation and just note that my constructive criticisms is coming from a friendly former Israeli soldier (me :D ) and not some anti American with a negative agenda.

Shalom :D

[Kingpin]

I don't believe US training or maintenance or anything is at fault here. It seems as though most of these attacks have been done with SAM's, a weapon much more effective against choppers than RPG's or anything Palestinians have access to. Yes if it is strictly done by SAM’s then I stand corrected but from a lot of the reporting here or else where, a lot of it has been done by rpg's or other factors but not with SAM’s and also there have been some crashes that have happened since this deployment that had nothing to do with the enemy or its actions.

I mean this very incident with the two helicopters that this thread is about is about rpg’s and the other just crashing.

Shalom :D

RPG is more effective killer of helicopter (and also much cheaper). but it is not guided and it's hard to make precise hit with it.

[Caribou Kid]

EVERY death in war is tragic, no matter what side you are on. Next you'll be saying that "Collateral damage" is less (or more?) important than a death by accident. (blue on blue? remember them?...A-10 pilots, take note)

At the risk of severly pissing off a lot of people on this forum, I would ask you this: Is a death incurred during this "War on Terror" more or less tragic than a death that happened in New Yawk on September 11th? This includes civilian deaths, as well as military KIA.
What I mean is, does one of the unknown, faceless victims of the accidental bombing of the Afghani wedding party work out to be worth only half as much sympathy as ...say...a Cantor Fitzgerald employee's death, or a road-side IED convoy victim? Or a crewman from a shot down helicopter, for that matter? I think not.

And before you OORAH-bar chomping, gung-ho crazies start responding with "You're damn right! An American life is worth 2 afghani/Somali/Syrian lives!" just think about what sort of human being this makes you out to be. Then, perhaps you might ask yourself..."Is this what all those thousands of noble men and women died fighting for in WW2, so that I can have the freedom to make sweeping, insulting generalisations about my country over all others.."
But then again, you might not feel that way at all. I dunno; I am not you. That's why I asked...

I look forward to reading your responses.

Death is never glorious.It just brings sadness and pain. :( Ask an old vet.

P.s. sorry if this is off the thread topic a bit. Tried to include the helicopter crew reference to try to keep it relevant. :oops:

"This is my keyboard. There are many like it, but this one is mine..."

[IDFM203]

“Yes if it is strictly done by SAM’s then I stand corrected but from a lot of the reporting here or else where, a lot of it has been done by rpg's or other factors but not with SAM’s and also there have been some crashes that have happened since this deployment that had nothing to do with the enemy or its actions.

I mean this very incident with the two helicopters that this thread is about is about rpg’s and the other just crashing.

Shalom :D “

RPG is more effective killer of helicopter (and also much cheaper). but it is not guided and it's hard to make precise hit with it. yes but there are a lot of counter measures and various manoeuvres that a helicopter pilot can take to counter rpg’s. Which are much easier to counter and evade then a SAM.

And again besides these take downs by rpg’s, there have also been a few too many crashes since the U.S. deployment that had nothing to do with enemy fire and that too is in my book unacceptable.


Shalom :D