The London Streets - Who are these anti-Bush people?

[budanski]

The London Streets - Who are these anti-Bush people? (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/taheri200311181102.asp)

LONDON — George W. Bush's visit to London this week will be historic for at least two reasons. He will be the first U.S. president to come to Britain on a state visit. He will also observe a bizarre political marriage: one between the remnants of the Marxist-Leninist Left and militant Islamists. Negotiated over the past two years, the "wedding," will be celebrated in a mass demonstration against Bush's visit. The demonstration is organized by a shadowy group called "Stop the War Coalition," part of the Hate-America-International, which has orchestrated a number of street "events" in support of the Taliban and the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein since 2001.

When I called the coalition to ask whether the idea was to stop all wars, a spokeswoman assured me that this was not the case.

She referred me to the first article of the coalition's charter that states: "The aim of the coalition is simple: to stop the war currently declared by the United States and its allies against 'terrorism.'"

"We really want to stop Bush and Blair from going around killing babies," she said. "Our objective is to force the U.S. out of Iraq and Afghanistan."

But what if a U.S. withdrawal means the return of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein?

"Anything would be better than American Imperialist rule," she snapped back.

Who are these nostalgics of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein?

The coalition has a steering committee of 33 members. Of these, 18 come from various hard left groups: Communists, Trotskyites, Maoists, and Castrists. Three others belong to the radical wing of the Labour party. There are also eight radical Islamists. The remaining four are leftist ecologists known as "Watermelons" (Green outside, red inside).

The chairman of the coalition is one Andrew Murray, a former employee of the Soviet Novosty Agency and leader in the British Communist party. Cochair is Muhammad Asalm Ijaz of the London Council of Mosques. Members include John Rees of the Socialist Workers' party and Ghayassudin Siddiqui of the Muslim Parliament. Tanja Salem of the Al-awdah (The Return) group, an outfit close to Yasser Arafat, is also a member along with Shahedah Vawda of "Just Peace," another militant Arab group, and Wolf Wayne of the "Green Socialist Network."

A prominent member is George Galloway, a Labour-party parliamentarian under investigation for the illegal receipt of funds from Saddam Hussein. In his memoirs, Galloway says that the day the Soviet Union collapsed was "the saddest day" of his life.

Galloway says the only terrorism in the world today comes from the United States, not from organizations such as al Qaeda or the remnants of the Iraqi Baath party.

The coalition was created in London in September 2001, at first as an exclusively leftist concoction bringing together the remnants of the Stalinist "peace movement" of the 1950s, diehard "no nukes" activists, and some fellow travellers.

The coalition has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its founders. For the first time ever it has brought together all radical leftist and anarchist groups. Under its umbrella march such traditional former archenemies as Stalinists and Trotskyites.

But the coalition's biggest success is the alliance that it has forged between the extreme Left and militant Islamist groups. This would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago. The Left always regarded Islam as a "relic of feudalism" and an instrument of reactionary Arab regimes. For their part, the Islamists regarded leftists as atheist enemies who had to be put to the sword.

The first to advocate a leftist-Islamist alliance against Western democracies was Ayman Al Zawahiri al Qaeda's #2.

In a message to al Qaeda sympathizers in Britain in August 2002, he urged them to seek allies among "any movement that opposes America, even atheists."

The idea has received strong support from Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, the Venezuelan terrorist known as "Carlos the Jackal."

In his book Revolutionary Islam, published in Paris last month, Carlos, who says he has converted to Islam, says he has advised Osama bin Laden, the al Qaeda leader, to forge an alliance with "all guerrilla, terrorist and other revolutionary groups throughout the world, regardless of their religious or ideological beliefs."

Carlos says Islam is the only force capable of persuading large numbers of people to become "volunteers" for suicide attacks against the U.S.

"Only a coalition of Marxists and Islamists can destroy the US," he says.

This week's anti-Bush demonstration in London will mark the emergence of a coalition the hard core of which consists of the radical Left and militant Islamism. Around it we find other groups who hate the U.S. for different reasons. There are supporters of free abortion, opponents of capital punishment, anti-globalization fanatics, advocates of the Kyoto protocol on the environment, and anti-Semites who believe the Jews control the United States. But a good part of the planned demonstrations will, as always, consist of what Lenin called "the useful idiots", men and women of good faith whose political naiveté makes them natural targets for experts in agitprop.

But why are these people taking to the streets?

One reason is that the parties, groups, and individuals involved have consistently failed to find a place in the normal institutions of British democracy.

The 60 or so leftist and Islamist groups involved in this odd enterprise have never managed to win more than one half of one percent of the votes in any British general election. Nor have they succeeded in winning a single seat in parliament or a majority in a single municipal council.

Those who can never win elections, always take to the streets. Street politics enables them to escape debate on complex issues that cannot be reduced to a few simplistic slogans.

Britain's participation in the war against terrorism was the subject of four exhaustive debates in the House of Commons in 2001 and 2002, each followed by a vote that Prime Minister Tony Blair won.

Street politics is for those who wish to abolish individual political judgment, the cornerstone of democratic life. Street politics encourages the irrational tendencies of crowds that could turn into hunting packs or lynch mobs. Power won in the streets produces only ochlocracy (rule by the worst).

To make sure that no discordant voice is heard, the organizers of the demonstrations have announced that only "authorized" t-shirts, hats and other paraphernalia will be allowed. Only four slogans are permitted: "Stop Bush," "Stop Blair," " U.S. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan," and " Bush Go Home!"

The demonstration's security force, made up of muscular Marxists and Islamists, has instructions to prevent any sign of pro-American sentiments. A group that has said it wants to take part in the demonstrations with t-shirts saying "Bush-Cheney: Four More Years!" has been warned of "dire consequences."

The London demonstration is planned and will be supervised in the best Stalinist traditions still in force in North Korea.

In countries that suffer under despotism, the street is, at times, the only space available to the opposition. This is why we hear so much about the so-called "Arab street." But do we need a "British street" that disdains the institutions of democracy, including mainstream political parties, and the parliament?

Amir Taheri is an Iranian author of ten books on the Middle East and Islam. Taheri is reachable through www.benadorassociates.com.

"We really want to stop Bush and Blair from going around killing babies," she said
Ten bucks say that these people are pro abortion!

[Seoulstriker]

awesome, bro! national review rocks.



"We really want to stop Bush and Blair from going around killing babies," she said


Ten bucks say that these people are pro abortion!

STOP! my head hurts! :P :hug:

[The Walrus]

There is a marxist-Islamic conspiracy out to bring down America, oh my!
It is logical that the national review would suggest that the scapegoats of the past are closely intertwined with the scapegoats of the presesnt.

[pinkeye]

in other words, according to the article posted, if you protest you are either an islamic extremist or a stalinist, maoist, or a castrist. wow, didn't realise there were that many stalinists in england... that article is beyond idiotic... rofl

[Seoulstriker]

in other words, according to the article posted, if you protest you are either an islamic extremist or a stalinist, maoist, or a castrist. wow, didn't realise there were that many stalinists in england... that article is beyond idiotic... rofl

apparently you don't realize that the ORGANIZERS of the protests are islamic extremists and communists. in the US, there is a group called A.N.S.W.E.R. that is a front for a dozen communist and socialist groups. they are also responsible for organizing many 'major' protests in the US.

[budanski]

in other words, according to the article posted, if you protest you are either an islamic extremist or a stalinist, maoist, or a castrist. wow, didn't realise there were that many stalinists in england... that article is beyond idiotic... rofl

Thats funny. I read the same article and doesnt make such claims.


The demonstration is organized by a shadowy group called "Stop the War Coalition," part of the Hate-America-International, which has orchestrated a number of street "events" in support of the Taliban and the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein since 2001.
more about whose behind and organises these demonstrations.


apparently you don't realize that the ORGANIZERS of the protests are islamic extremists and communists. in the US, there is a group called A.N.S.W.E.R. that is a front for a dozen communist and socialist groups. they are also responsible for organizing many 'major' protests in the US.
At least we don't have a monopoly on these idiots.

[Seoulstriker]

in other words, according to the article posted, if you protest you are either an islamic extremist or a stalinist, maoist, or a castrist. wow, didn't realise there were that many stalinists in england... that article is beyond idiotic... rofl

Thats funny. I read the same article and doesnt make such claims.


The demonstration is organized by a shadowy group called "Stop the War Coalition," part of the Hate-America-International, which has orchestrated a number of street "events" in support of the Taliban and the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein since 2001.

more about whose behind and organises these demonstrations.



The coalition has a steering committee of 33 members. Of these, 18 come from various hard left groups: Communists, Trotskyites, Maoists, and Castrists. Three others belong to the radical wing of the Labour party. There are also eight radical Islamists. The remaining four are leftist ecologists known as "Watermelons" (Green outside, red inside).


whoa. anti-US groups are actually supporting anti-US protests?

[Dalleer]

Hmm....

"Stop the war coalition" and "Hate-America-International", wheeww...those boys have truly came up with funny names for their little club.

[budanski]

I don't think Nostradamus saw that coming

[2Sheds_Jackson]

While the article certainly has a slant to it, it's not without a basis in truth. England has been hit with a massive influx of Muslims, due to its liberal immigration & social policies. In my opinion, it's more of an insurgency campaign than just simple immigration. I'm sure that a decent percentage of them would be what I'd consider "anti-West".

Also - look in the help wanted section of any major city newspaper. You'll find plenty of ads for what amount to "rent-a-mobs" - typically unemployed, homeless, drug addict types who show up for whoever will give 'em $10 for their next fix.

So while there will surely be plenty of "average joe" types in the crowds, it will hardly indicative of the overall sentiment of the country.

[Trigger]

It's true:

budanski Rocks!

[Seoulstriker]

It's true:

budanski Rocks!


woot woot woot

[budanski]

:oops: aw shucks, you shouldnt have.

http://209.237.0.15/~jkahn/temp/protest_spoof.jpg

[Shake n Bake]

yeah!!


''who really pays for anti-war protests??''

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81314,00.html



Money is needed to rent or buy stages, sound systems, permits and portable toilets, and tabs often run as high as $200,000 per demonstration — much more than the average grassroots peace group will ever have in its coffers.

So who is picking up the tab?

"The major anti-U.S. government demonstrations are organized by people who have been around for a long time, particularly the Workers World Party, which has existed for more than 30 years now and has always supported the enemies of the United States," said Herbert Romerstein, a retired agent of the U.S. Information Agency.

The Workers World Party describes itself as Marxist in nature.

Officially, protest organizers are groups such as Not in Our Name and International A.N.S.W.E.R., but the demonstration's sponsors have long histories of backing anti-government causes.

Not in Our Name is financed by the Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization. I.F.C.O. is a million-dollar-a-year non-profit that supports Cuban dictator Fidel Castro and once sponsored a group headed by Sami Al-Arian — the University of South Florida professor being charged with fundraising for terrorist organizations Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

A.N.S.W.E.R. is an offshoot of the International Action Center, which intelligence officials say is a front for the Worker's World Party. A.N.S.W.E.R. canceled a scheduled interview with Fox News but a worker in the Seattle field office acknowledged there are ties.

"There are some Workers World Party members in A.N.S.W.E.R.," said A.N.S.W.E.R. coordinator Jim McMahan.

The International Action Center was founded by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who is a longtime public face of the anti-war movement.

The Workers World Party supports North Korea's brutal regime and I.F.C.O. defied U.N. sanctions when it made a trip to Iraq in the mid-1990s. Now, both are sugar daddies to the anti-war movement.

"The American people have the right to know whether stooges of [North Korean leader] Kim Jong Il or Castro or Saddam Hussein are involved in these demonstrations," Romerstein said.

The groups bankrolling these protests say they're spending their money the way donors would want, and protest organizers say it doesn't matter where the money comes from — the message is their own.

Others wonder if knowing the fringe politics of the people paying the bills might keep some demonstrators off the streets.

But anti-war organizers — regardless of their financial backing — are plugging ahead and are actually planning more aggressive action that they say will be hard to ignore, despite the fact that the United States is on the brink of war with Iraq.

"People will step up their actions, there will be active civil disobedience," said Simona Sharoni of United for Peace in Thurston County, Wash.

Direct Action, a San Francisco Bay-area group of anti-war veterans, has been drawing up their own battle plan should there be a war.

They say they will shut down 70 targets in San Francisco alone, including power plants, water systems, the Federal Reserve, oil companies, the Pacific Exchange and the Transamerica Building.

And their hit list goes beyond economic targets.

Some protesters are promising to chain themselves to fences at schools and day care centers so working parents will have to stay home from their jobs. Organizers say this will give others a chance to contemplate how war affects the children of Iraq.

"The civilians in Iraq are losing their lives and one day of work is worth a thousand lives," said Leone Reinbold, an anti-war activist in San Francisco.

Reinbold helped organize the World Trade Organization protest in Seattle three years ago. She blames the violence and damage on anarchists from the radical fringe, not the mainstream demonstrators.

All the same, police departments from coast to coast know that keeping things peaceful won't be easy.

"We know based on the last one that each preceding demonstration has been a little bit more volatile than the one before," said Deputy Chief Greg Suhr of the San Francisco Police Department.

Some protestors are vowing to bring traffic to a standstill, as they recently did on a Seattle bridge. But many wonder if paralyzing the morning commute and engaging in similar disruptions will win converts or make enemies of people losing patience with their tactics.

[Seoulstriker]

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021803/content/from.parcol1.0001.ImageFile.jpg

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021803/content/from.parcol2.0002.ImageFile.jpg

:D

[budanski]

Gotta love those guys. :D
http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20031117-092208-4242r.htm

[martinexsquaddie]

So thats ok then the Huge protest has been paid for by Marxists and students and the rest are rent a mob.
Unfortunatly its not true theres an awful lot of people in this country who don't like Bush best poll has it 60% in favour

[Midtown]

I hate protesters. Get a **** ing job you pussies. Stop wasting everyones time, no one gives a ****. I got into a fist fight with a protester at the college I went to last year, nothing funnier then watching a hippie try to fight. I put him down pretty fast, but I was laughing the whole time he was trying to swing at me. You know your good when you can get Anti-War Protesters to use Violence toward you.

Midtown - 1
Hippies - 0

[Seoulstriker]

You know your good when you can get Anti-War Protesters to use Violence toward you.

hehehe. i have noticed that anti-war protestors are some of the most violent and hateful people you can meet. ;)

[Shake n Bake]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20031115/mdf407323.jpg

Commie pinko fags

[budanski]

You guys are so violent. You must be members of some militaryphotos.net forum or something. Animals :P

[usa320]

One a bunch of pussies...if living under hussein is so great, these little communist leftist bitches should move to Iraq...they better leave their tank tob and short skirts behind.

;)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Abdul the monkey has come down from the tree 12986 74896 28471 25875 73587 41971 12574 25732

Oops sorry wrong forum

Bloody goddam commie trotsky lovin satanist scum yeah f*ck em pinkos

[The Walrus]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20031115/mdf407323.jpg


Oh yeah, I have seen that poster in my school, the stop Bush signs are everywhere! I guess they're trying to appeal to the students with leftist ideals (almost every student), as some guy said something like 'a conservative student has no heart, while a leftist adult has no brain'.
I come from a former-Soviet country myself (Estonia) so I don't share their enthusiasm for communism to say the least.

[Kriz]

Jeez what's the matter with all you capitalist dogs and commie fagz. The cold war is over guys, time to move on !

[jdbjdb]

To bad this isn't the running of the bulls in Spain, you wanna see some protesters run like the wind? rofl

[M203]

Hi! First time writing a post here but ive been reading the forums for a while. Quite interesting.

Just wanted to say that Bush (not americans) is , whatever you say, disliked by alot of europeans ( i can speak of the nordic countries, germany, france) and especially britons that feel that they got tricked into the war by bush. Maybe you dont care about this fact and if so that is truly a bit sad.

All I hope for is a constructive and smooth visit by bush in london. Hopefully the protesters will keep calm.

Greetings from a lappland jaeger
http://w1.521.telia.com/~u52106894/links/bilder/vargen8.jpg

Not me on picture, but my unit

[Trigger]

Nice Pic!

[IDFM203]

.....Awesome screen name woot woot


As they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery ;)

p.s. nice pic :D

shalom :D

[spier]

Can anyone say "useful idiots"?

[budanski]

http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/the_counter-proposal.jpg

[He219]

:lol:
Nice one, budanski!

This whole 'tricked' thing is rather amusing. Wasn't British intel. saying the same things we were?

Welcome M203 woot

[Caribou Kid]

Just out of curiosity....

Are these leftist commie pinkos the same drug smoking hippie peace freaks that seem to populate the peace protests in Washington D.C.? I acknowledge that I probably don't see the same media perspective as a lot of you folks, given that I am not geographically located in the USA, but from what I have seen, there's an awful lot of unhappy people on your home turf that are voicing similar views to many of these protesters. High profile personalities, too, not just joe-bloggs-off-the-street. You know, like the Michael Douglas Dynasty, and the Dixie chicks lead singer, as well as many more. (try typing "anti war + celebrities" in google & see how many hits come up. I just did. Fuggin' bucketloads, mate! p-) )
To dismiss these people off hand as just a bunch of hold over relics from the Cold war or a bunch of die-hard trotsky-ists seems like a very ostrich-with-it's-head-in-the-sand approach. These are the same people that arranged the "virtual march on Washington" campaign. Sure, the actor Mike Farell (used to be B.J. Honeycut in the ancient M*A*S*H sitcom) isn't going to be the BEST poster boy for a peace protest, but Sheryl Crow doesn't strike me as a long time Marxist-quoting Neo-Jane Fonda. Remember, Sheryl Crow also visited US troops in Bosnia, so she has some respectability as a patriot,no?

Just for the sake of balanced debate, do you reckon that there are ALSO a ****load of protestors out there who are simply opposed to the Iraq situation because they feel like they were sold 'sexed-up" hype?

FWIW, I was one of the few people in my circle of friends who downloaded the 50-odd pages of the dossier put on the BBC website to argue the case for war on Iraq. (figured I might as well have a copy of the data being presented for all the world to see for myself! Yay Internet!) Read it cover to cover, too. (How many of you did? :| ) Well, here we are months later and still no concrete evidence, just a lot of "At least you aren't as bad off as it was under Saddam" rhetoric, and little else. Sure, hospitals & schools are going up, the electricity is freely distributed now, etc etc, but..c'mon. Wouldn't that have happened as well if the oil money hadn't been choked off for ten years? (Yes, despite Uday & Qusay still being monsters and ruling the nation in a tyrannical fashion.)
I mean, even Khadaffi-duck has got his admin **** squared away, whilst maintaining most favoured pariah nation state status.

As an aside,I distinctly remember a fairly large group of expat Iraqis chartering a cargo Airbus and flying pallets of badly needed medical supplies into the country several times in direct contravention to the UN embargo/no fly zone, long before the tragedy of September 11th. I think the Medecine Sans Frontiers gang was part of the effort too, IIRC. The UK/US administration turned a blind eye to this a few times, as it was pretty obvious it was a humanitarian mission.

(As opposed to:"We're on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan. When the Imperial Senate hears of this.." rofl )

Now the cynic in me says they MIGHT have smuggled some evil,nasty stuff in those shipments, but by and large it was probably mostly fresh bandages and x-ray film, or I.V. fluids and Plasma, etc. Does this not show that the locals were actively trying to reconstruct their infrastructure despite the oppression/subjugation by Saddam & Co.?

Looking forward to your replies


"This is my keyboard. There are many like it, but this one is mine..."

[Skaman]

Hell, if the British dont want Bush's putrifying presence in their nation, they have by all means to protest it. I think its sad when individuals like Budanski post very anti liberal and pro republican works, but when I post liberal opinion, I am shot down left and right. Talk about only walking one side of the line. Look, if the brits dont want Bush there, they have every right. Incase you didnt notice, there is quite a bit of discontent.

[wulfstan]

I wonder whether 'The Wombles' will be there? I bet they will. (The brits here will know who i mean)
Did any of these people get out of bed to protest about Saddam's rule? What about when Choucescu (Spelling? The Romanian dictator) or Mugabe? No, they just lurve hating Americans!
Average day of unwashed psuedo-Bolshevist;
11:00 - get out of bed
11:01-23.30 - hate americans
23:31 - Go to bed

[jdbjdb]

britons that feel that they got tricked into the war by bush
No one was tricked into a war, they had the same info we The United States had, The UN another League of Nations :bash: Some of us Americans feel the same way about the Windsors as British feel about Bush.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well the British have a right to say and do whatever they want. Its a free country there so if they want to protest all day go ahead.

[James]

Hell, if the British dont want Bush's putrifying presence in their nation, they have by all means to protest it. I think its sad when individuals like Budanski post very anti liberal and pro republican works, but when I post liberal opinion, I am shot down left and right. Talk about only walking one side of the line. Look, if the brits dont want Bush there, they have every right. Incase you didnt notice, there is quite a bit of discontent.

Is something wrong? Nobody is flaming ducimus! SOmeone must not be feeling well... :P

[Zach R.]

Well he is right about the Brits having every right to say what they want. But just cuz you have freedom of speech doesn't make you smart. Oh and ducimus, the reason you get shot down left and right each time you open your mouth is cuz you're an ass (literally).

[Skaman]

Is something wrong? Nobody is flaming ducimus! SOmeone must not be feeling well... :P


it is a truly bizzare day on www.militaryphotos.net

[ChuckThunder]

Wow, there some **** ed up people in this world... who the **** is pro-Taliban other than Mullah Omar? :|

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Alot of people...apparently

[jdbjdb]

Well the British have a right to say and do whatever they want. Its a free country there so if they want to protest all day go ahead
Your right, no one forced the UK into the conclict with Iraq, with Bush in town most will be protesting against him, and not talking about how Dianna was rubbed out.

[Adri]

who cares if they realy wants to go in the streats of London and demonstrate ?
well I care ! cause I laugh my ass of when I saw those posters !!!!!!!! rofl

btw:
remember that not all of those demonstrants are commies and fundamentalists, but those are the ones who scream highest.... (the commies and fundamentalists)

[parker82nd]

they arent anything more than a bucna tree huggin, peace for all, weed smokin, peace child praisin, lave lamp lovin, pussies.
Go back to your homes and make love to you oak tree and pine wood tree.

[Royal]

Your right, no one forced the UK into the conclict with Iraq

Tony Blair anyone?

[budanski]

Last time I checked, The UK was its own sovereign country... or was it? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,999763,00.html)

[Argyll]

All these protesters are doing is exercising their democratic right,whatever their political belifs is irrelevant!!.
I got to laugh here we have the US with their Right Wing Governmant,and their closest "friends" were once famous for their extreme far left views,to which a lot of labour members would like to see a return to the old labour values!!!.

Tony Blair stuck his "*****" into the British public big time over the reasons to go to war!And now they want payback!!

Also here's one for the US lads.......do you think Dubya will win a 2nd term in office next year?

[budanski]

Also here's one for the US lads.......do you think Dubya will win a 2nd term in office next year?

Yes, a victory of a Democrat in 2004 would likely mean an American withdrawal from Iraq or handing the problem over to the United Nations.

[Argyll]

I never thought of it in that way Bud,that's a valid point!!

[Trigger]

@Argyll: YES
A poll last night had Dubya with a landslide victory versus any of the current Democrat opponents if the election were held today. No Sh*t.
(in Arizona which is estimated at 2:1 Democrat)

[Argyll]

Despite the protests 60% wanted to see GWB here,and I'd go along with that,though I'd question about having it a State visit,when not Even the Great Ronnie Reagan got one,but hey I'm not a politician,and it's the folks in London who will be picking up the Tab for this!!
Both TB and GWB needed this visit ,for many different reasons,but the main one being showing a United Front!!

[budanski]

Argyll,
That is but one reason for me to vote for the man even if I disagree with him on his immigration policy, failure to seat judges, and failure to seek impeachment on activist judges. The alternative (democrats) is worse.

[The Walrus]

No one was tricked into a war, they had the same info we The United States had, The UN another League of Nations :bash: Some of us Americans feel the same way about the Windsors as British feel about Bush.

Umm... I may not be a Brit, but I know that almost everybody here sees the royal family as an archaic money-sucking tourist attraction, if not a pure joke.
And IMO the Brits (as well as everyone else) were most certainly tricked into war, back then it was all about WMD's, and with hindsight it is quite clear that it was a pre-text, nothing more (like when the USSR invaded neutral Estonia in WW2 on the pre-text of a 'rogue Polish submarine' hiding in Tallinn harbour), I mean if they had such convincing evidence that made them go to war in the first place, then surely they would have found them by now, if they knew so much about them before the war without a multi-million search operation underway they surely would have found them by now.

And also, it seems to me that some people here think that their countrys leaders represent their people, and thus link them together, over here this is clearly NOT the case, people here have a deep mistrust of the government and in no way would think that Tony Blair represents them.

I personally (like many here) have deep misgivings about Bush's visit as well, the timing is especially suspicious as it is quite near the start of election campaig season in the US, and Bush would use this visit to show what a good statesman he is by posing with the queen, Blair etc (like Ronald Reagan did)

[budanski]

And also, it seems to me that some people here think that their countrys leaders represent their people, and thus link them together, over here this is clearly NOT the case, people here have a deep mistrust of the government and in no way would think that Tony Blair represents them.

Yeah, those who got tired formed a new country called The United States of America.

[Roger Rabbit]

Umm... I may not be a Brit, but I know that almost everybody here sees the royal family as an archaic money-sucking tourist attraction, if not a pure joke.


Dunno where you live but i am from Britain. I do not know anybody who wants to get rid of the Royal Family, most of us makes jokes from time to time but none of us see them as "archaic money-sucking tourist attration." They are part of our history and culture.

[marktigger]

at the end of the day guys for those of us in uniform defending democracy means defending the rights of those who want to protest wether we agree with them of not and if necessary laying down our lives if necessary.

The Americans posting here may be offended by the protests at Bush well tough! The United Kingdom is a democracy and we allow people to express their views. Otherwise we would be another autocracy like Iraq was.

[budanski]

No ones saying that they can't. Just funny the ones that are protesting today, were also opposed to giving the Iraqis this basic freedom.

[He219]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=466425

"But we don't care about the bloody Iraqis..."

[Seoulstriker]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=466425

"But we don't care about the bloody Iraqis..."

:lol:

[Deuterium]

I personally (like many here) have deep misgivings about Bush's visit as well, the timing is especially suspicious as it is quite near the start of election campaig season in the US, and Bush would use this visit to show what a good statesman he is by posing with the queen, Blair etc (like Ronald Reagan did)

Splain to me when it's not an election cycle in the US? It was reported here that the invitation to come for the state visit was given over a year ago, what do you know?

[Shake n Bake]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=466425

"But we don't care about the bloody Iraqis..."


Harry Potter??

[Seoulstriker]

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=466425

"But we don't care about the bloody Iraqis..."


Harry Potter??

hmmm... i'll see if i can whip something up quickly (class in 10 minutes). ;)

[Deuterium]

"And I won't stop yelling until you bloody Yanks give us back Winnie the Pooh! You bastards!!!!!! I'll kill you all!!!!"

[Seoulstriker]

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/harry%20potter2.jpg

:P

(it was quick)

[Shake n Bake]

Ha! Ha!

[CX20]

Deuterium is correct, the invitation had been made a long time ago indeed, yet obviously Mr Bush was preoccupied with more important matters at the time.

Whilst the protestors outside the palace obviously have the right to protest, when I see their immature, childish rantings on the TV, those with masks of the President on and the US flag plastered with swastikas being burnt, I cannot help but think two things about them - get a job and get a life.

Carol Sarler, a left wing journalist at the left wing Daily Express newspaper, had this to say in her column today about the protestors. I have included the while thing, nothing left or edited out.

"NO POINT IN THIS STROPPY MARCH"

Thanks for the invitation - several, in fact. I shall not, however, be marching. If you wanted me to join a protest against George Bush, his visit and all who sail in it, I'd have my wellies on already.

But it's quite clear that the planned mish-mash is nothing of the kind; it is, rather, anti-Bush out partying with pro-Left, anti-war, pro-CND, anti-America, pro-choice, anti-Imperialism, pro-gay, anti-globalism, pro-union anti-whaling, pro-environment plus a few hefty dollops of Greenpeace, Bah'ai, Hare Krishna, precocious taunting schoolchildren and sandwich boards proclaiming the end to be nigh. In short: a coalition of the ineffectually stroppy.

Enjoy yourselves, by all means. But untiul you learn to leave your personal bee at home in your personal bonnet, there's very little point. Apart, that is, from the buzz.

If the left wing columnists are slagging the protestors off, then you know that they do not represent the views of the majority of the British people.
Which all goes back to what I said in another thread the other day. These protestors are professional complainers, people who sail along in a fantasy world on a moral crusade, to satisfy their own self loathing and to avoid having to get a real job and live in the real world.

Yes of course they do have the democratic right to that, but that doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean that they aren't immune from criticism themselves.

[Argyll]

yeah and these wasters are doing it at my expense!!(taxpayer!!)

[Roger Rabbit]

So thats where my tax is going. Remind me to go there tommorrow and have a chat with these peace loving chaps and to ask for my poorly spent tax money back. Sod the schools, the hospitals, the roads, the future when you can spend money on a protest which will get nobody anywhere except further to the polar extremes.

[budanski]

I just find it funny that these blokes are out protesting the overthrow of one of the most cruel and murderous dictators of the 20th century (that was a reference towards Saddam) - carrying posters calling Bush "the world's number one terrorist" :roll:

[Jack Mehoff]

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021803/content/from.parcol1.0001.ImageFile.jpg

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021803/content/from.parcol2.0002.ImageFile.jpg

:D

The hippies are sure creative......NOT

[budanski]

As posted here...


Gotta love those guys. :D
http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20031117-092208-4242r.htm

Those guys are protest warriors, protesting the protesters.

[ShotOver]

Heh, Protesters, the only thing in the world i hate more than warm beer...

We need another "Tianimun Square" (Spelling?) just mow them all down, damn college kids, think they are the smartest people in the whole world.
Well, if they hate everything about this world, how about they tie a plastic bag around their head, slit their wrists and jump head first into a river from a 50ft bridge.

[ShotOver]

My lord that is some funny stuff on their website, those guys rule.

Watch their videos of them pissing off the commie hippies... hahahahahah i have tears in my eyes im laughing so much
hahahaha!

[budanski]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031120/capt.lmn10111201741.britain_bush_lmn101.jpg

[Seoulstriker]

http://brain-terminal.com/video/nyc-2003-02-15/

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

These marches are good places to pick up chicks, usually a few warehouse parties afterwards, I think even the female, gay, bi****** and transgender forum members would score.

[California Joe]

WooHoo! Hear that Adam?

[wholagun]

Anyone hear of the plan that the anti war protestors are planning. According to my proffessor today in class the anti war protestors are planning (have built) a huge statue of Bush and are planning on re-inacting the topple of the Sadam statue of Sadam in Bagdad (Im sure we all know what I mean). They are planning on toppeling Bush in a simular fashion. I don't know anything besides this, for all i know it could even not be true. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[wholagun]

I was able to find this http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/11/280977.html

but its not as big as i was told it would be, perhaps there will be a big one,t hat would be interesting too see.

[Shake n Bake]

That was weak..

[Seoulstriker]

Bush (liberator of Iraq) = Hussein (mass murderer)

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Smintjes]

Anyone hear of the plan that the anti war protestors are planning. According to my proffessor today in class the anti war protestors are planning (have built) a huge statue of Bush and are planning on re-inacting the topple of the Sadam statue of Sadam in Bagdad (Im sure we all know what I mean). They are planning on toppeling Bush in a simular fashion. I don't know anything besides this, for all i know it could even not be true. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

It's true.

[ogukuo72]

Two bombs went off in Istanbul attacking British targets, and British citizens are dead and missing, and these people went ahead and demonstrated???

I read the BBC reports, and they reported a "party-like atmosphere"!!! :cantbeli:

What kind of people are these? Partying when their fellow countrymen are dead and missing???

[Gordon]

Two bombs went off in Istanbul attacking British targets, and British citizens are dead and missing, and these people went ahead and demonstrated???

I read the BBC reports, and they reported a "party-like atmosphere"!!! :cantbeli:

What kind of people are these? Partying when their fellow countrymen are dead and missing???

Istanbul isn't in Iraq mate.

Alot of these people probably couldn't see a link between these bombings in Istanbul and what's going on in Iraq .. if there is one, I don't know a whole about it and it's pretty likely there is a link.

Many of these people protesting probably backed the war in Afghanistan but don't back the war in Iraq, I know alot of people who fall into this category. I have many friends and family who thought the whole Afghanistan campaign was totally the way forward but the campaign in Iraq is somewhat unsubstantiated.

I think, as i've said before, the Iraqi campaign is right but most of the reasons given and pushed forward by politicians are not the reasons we went to war there.

As to the partying while fellow countrymen are dying .. what, have you not been to a party since the beginning of the war on terror and before, because if you have mate, you're basically a hypocrit.

Man, we've had terrorism in the UK for the last thirty / forty odd years and we've never had a problem with having a few beers and a get together .... that doesn't mean you don't feel for and recognise the loss of a compatriot.

[budanski]

Even if we didnt go into iraq, they'd still be protesting. Simple as that.

[ogukuo72]

Two bombs went off in Istanbul attacking British targets, and British citizens are dead and missing, and these people went ahead and demonstrated???

I read the BBC reports, and they reported a "party-like atmosphere"!!! :cantbeli:

What kind of people are these? Partying when their fellow countrymen are dead and missing???

Istanbul isn't in Iraq mate.

Alot of these people probably couldn't see a link between these bombings in Istanbul and what's going on in Iraq .. if there is one, I don't know a whole about it and it's pretty likely there is a link.

Many of these people protesting probably backed the war in Afghanistan but don't back the war in Iraq, I know alot of people who fall into this category. I have many friends and family who thought the whole Afghanistan campaign was totally the way forward but the campaign in Iraq is somewhat unsubstantiated.

I think, as i've said before, the Iraqi campaign is right but most of the reasons given and pushed forward by politicians are not the reasons we went to war there.

As to the partying while fellow countrymen are dying .. what, have you not been to a party since the beginning of the war on terror and before, because if you have mate, you're basically a hypocrit.

Man, we've had terrorism in the UK for the last thirty / forty odd years and we've never had a problem with having a few beers and a get together .... that doesn't mean you don't feel for and recognise the loss of a compatriot.
Tsk I know that. Don't patronise me just because I'm Asian.

I'm sad to see that it is possible for people to become desensitised to the deaths and maiming, enough for them to continue to have a beer and party. If you party and drink beer after your compatriots had died, I doubt you really feel for them at all.

[Gordon]

Even if we didnt go into iraq, they'd still be protesting. Simple as that.

true, people always bitch.


Tsk I know that. Don't patronise me just because I'm Asian.

umm .. I really don't know if you're asian or not, i'm only interacting with a name mate, whatever race you are it don't bother me.



I'm sad to see that it is possible for people to become desensitised to the deaths and maiming, enough for them to continue to have a beer and party. If you party and drink beer after your compatriots had died, I doubt you really feel for them at all.

For some people it may be true but I for one don't go forgetting people who have died, I also don't dwell on it 24 / 7 and just 'cos I have a party and get drunk on the same day a compatriot dies it doesn't mean I don't feel for them.

I have a few friends who have died, albeit not in combat, but the best rememberance service we had for them was in the pub, over a few beers, reminiscing about that person and everthing they were to us and had to offer ... that's the way i'd like my mates to remember me too. I am taking this slghtly out of context and I really don't like, generally, the kind of people who do that kind of thing, but they have their views on what's what and, basically, if they had had their way those deaths that you're talking about may well not have happened. It's not a weak argument.

As budanski said, people would be protesting anyway, but, believe me, there wouldn't be so many people and such a strong protest occurring, I don't think. GWB has always been seen as a bit of a moron among the Brits but the majority of the population were well behind the Afghan campaign, it's the Iraqi campaign that got their goat up.

[Ratamacue]

I'm sad to see that it is possible for people to become desensitised to the deaths and maiming, enough for them to continue to have a beer and party. If you party and drink beer after your compatriots had died, I doubt you really feel for them at all.

The show must go on, dude. You can't stop your life to wallow in sadness when some people die. If we did, everyone would be crying and sulking every hour of every day of the year. Death is a part of life, get used to it and deal with it. I'm not going to stop partying because a few civilians died in a terrorist attack, but that doesn't mean that I'm not upset or angry.

[ogukuo72]

I'm sad to see that it is possible for people to become desensitised to the deaths and maiming, enough for them to continue to have a beer and party. If you party and drink beer after your compatriots had died, I doubt you really feel for them at all.

The show must go on, dude. You can't stop your life to wallow in sadness when some people die. If we did, everyone would be crying and sulking every hour of every day of the year. Death is a part of life, get used to it and deal with it. I'm not going to stop partying because a few civilians died in a terrorist attack, but that doesn't mean that I'm not upset or angry.
It's OK because you're not British. But it's unsetting that some British themselves seemed so uneffected by the deaths of their countrymen. You are right that death is a part of life. Your own countrymen are risking it daily doing their duty in Iraq, and I respect them for it.

What I don't respect are people drinking and making merry when their countrymen are dead or maimed. I think that speaks very poorly of the kind of people they are, of their lack of compassion and - worse - their lack of patriotism. Did you, as an American, hold a party and get yourself drunk on the night of Sep 11 2001?

I'm sure you would agree that only jerks and morons would do something like that.

[Ratamacue]

A terrorist attack that kills a few is different from a terrorist attack that destroys 2 skyscrapers, kills 3000, grounds all flights in the US, and puts up F-16 combat air patrols over New York City. And no, I wasn't partying because I watched it live on TV and it was happening less than 40 miles from me.

You can't let the death of a few people stop all happiness. You can't stop partying because of a few of your countrymen got killed. The show must go on.

[ogukuo72]

A terrorist attack that kills a few is different from a terrorist attack that destroys 2 skyscrapers, kills 3000, grounds all flights in the US, and puts up F-16 combat air patrols over New York City. And no, I wasn't partying because I watched it live on TV and it was happening less than 40 miles from me.

You can't let the death of a few people stop all happiness. You can't stop partying because of a few of your countrymen got killed. The show must go on.
I respect your point, and I agree. But a decent grieving period will be good, no? It shows respect for the dead.

I come from a small country. When four of our servicewomen were killed in the line of duty, the whole nation was effected. I had also seen the way the Italians mourned their dead on Tuesday. I guess it's just different in big countries.

[Gordon]

I'm sorry man, you're full of it.

You're saying that British people dont feel and respect the serviceman that die serving their country.

Pull the other one mate ... you're so far from correct it's funny.

Come to Britain man, we aint all the unfeeling assholes that you obviously think we are.

P.S. the amount of people protesting against bush probably racks up around 250,000 (i don't know official figures) but out of a population of 60 odd million that's pretty small. We had a bigger turnout for the protest against fox hunting.

[Ratamacue]

The peacenicks always make out an extremely loud minority.

[Nawlins]

Stupid hippies.

[Mortimer]

Stupid hippies.

up yours "redneck"

don't put them into stereotypes.
people are allowed to protest.

[Nawlins]

Whoa, it was a joke. Should I go back and add a smiley? Geez.

[Royal]

It's OK because you're not British. But it's unsetting that some British themselves seemed so uneffected by the deaths of their countrymen. You are right that death is a part of life. Your own countrymen are risking it daily doing their duty in Iraq, and I respect them for it.

What I don't respect are people drinking and making merry when their countrymen are dead or maimed. I think that speaks very poorly of the kind of people they are, of their lack of compassion and - worse - their lack of patriotism. Did you, as an American, hold a party and get yourself drunk on the night of Sep 11 2001?

I'm sure you would agree that only jerks and morons would do something like that.

I went to my first military funeral for a mate murdered by the IRA as a 17 year old, too young to deploy to Northern Ireland myself. After his funeral we had a hooley to celebrate his short life (he was 18).

Over the years I've been to a dozen or so more. After every one we've done roughly the same thing. We also have a tradition of a 'dead man's auction' where the guy's kit is auctioned off (for crazy prices) to the boys (the money goes to the next of kin). We are usually ****faced by the auction.

We are not unfeeling bastards. I've seen hard men in tears at these events, it's just the way we deal with things.

BTW no, I didn't party on 9/11 or yesterday (I was too busy in the Ops Room on both occasions), but I will raise a glass to the victims tonight.
s

[ogukuo72]

I went to my first military funeral for a mate murdered by the IRA as a 17 year old, too young to deploy to Northern Ireland myself. After his funeral we had a hooley to celebrate his short life (he was 18).

Over the years I've been to a dozen or so more. After every one we've done roughly the same thing. We also have a tradition of a 'dead man's auction' where the guy's kit is auctioned off (for crazy prices) to the boys (the money goes to the next of kin). We are usually ****faced by the auction.

We are not unfeeling bastards. I've seen hard men in tears at these events, it's just the way we deal with things.

BTW no, I didn't party on 9/11 or yesterday (I was too busy in the Ops Room on both occasions), but I will raise a glass to the victims tonight.
s

I can respect that. That's your unit's way of mourning a departed comrade. In my old unit, during our unit anniversary dinner, we would raise our glasses to those who were no longer with us.

I am not against drinking. I am against those demonstrators in the streets of London yesterday having a good time so soon after a terrible attack against their fellow countrymen, even as their fellow countrymen lay dying.

[Caribou Kid]

Hey Ogukuo72,

You are full of hot air.

Fact One: South Korea is STILL AT WAR with North Korea.

Fact two: South Korea held the Wold Cup Soccer Finals.

Fact Three: South Korea hosted the Olympics.

And the last time I checked, mate, Koreans were Asian.

I saw many, many Koreans partying and celebrating there, and they are AT WAR STILL!!!! So please do not give us this "Asians are so full of Remorse" mentality,okay? Maybe it speaks for YOU, but not for the majority of Asians, buddy.

Just in case you were wondering, My opinion is that those brave Service men and women in the line of fire are there DEFENDING the right of these free, independant people to protest. Of course they are going to make the most of the timing of George W's visit. Do you think CNN & BBC will give half as much attention/air time to a protest without the American President in Country? They have to take advantage of it, as another opportunity such as this one may not present itself for a long, long time. Look and see what other sad events have happened today around the planet today besides the bombing outside the HSBC building, & British Consulate. Millions of people are still suffering in Africa with AIDS, Indonesia still cannot reign in it's Jemah Islamiah problem, The Kosovo problem is not any closer to being resolved,and you want the English nation to stop for an embassy bombing? Did the Unites States do so when it's two Embassies in Africa were bombed? HELL NO.

Ogukuo72, this is what Strong, independant countries do. They forge ahead. Despite the difficulties and obstacles.

So mate, while respecting your opinion, and your right to disagree, i think you are dead farkin' wrong.

But feel free to disagree with me too. :)

"This is my keyboard. there are many like it, but this one is mine..."

[Mortimer]

we wouldn't have to morn our brothers, fathers sisters and mothers if we stopped fighting.....both sides are undertaking in completely stupid causes and its going to be the downfall of the human race.

its not up to any one side to stop the fighting its up to both sides to realise the stupidity of what they're doing and stop.


but i know that's never going to happen so this comment was in essence completely pointless but never the less.

sorry Nawlins i am not googd at picking up humour through short comments....please fogive me................................maybe you should have put the stickers on it.

[Gordon]

Royal put it far better than me.

I'm not in the military but I and my friends remember someone in very much the same way.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Hey Ogukuo72,

You are full of hot air.

Fact One: South Korea is STILL AT WAR with North Korea.

Fact two: South Korea held the Wold Cup Soccer Finals.

Fact Three: South Korea hosted the Olympics.

And the last time I checked, mate, Koreans were Asian.

I saw many, many Koreans partying and celebrating there, and they are AT WAR STILL!!!! So please do not give us this "Asians are so full of Remorse" mentality,okay? Maybe it speaks for YOU, but not for the majority of Asians, buddy.

Just in case you were wondering, My opinion is that those brave Service men and women in the line of fire are there DEFENDING the right of these free, independant people to protest. Of course they are going to make the most of the timing of George W's visit. Do you think CNN & BBC will give half as much attention/air time to a protest without the American President in Country? They have to take advantage of it, as another opportunity such as this one may not present itself for a long, long time. Look and see what other sad events have happened today around the planet today besides the bombing outside the HSBC building, & British Consulate. Millions of people are still suffering in Africa with AIDS, Indonesia still cannot reign in it's Jemah Islamiah problem, The Kosovo problem is not any closer to being resolved,and you want the English nation to stop for an embassy bombing? Did the Unites States do so when it's two Embassies in Africa were bombed? HELL NO.

Ogukuo72, this is what Strong, independant countries do. They forge ahead. Despite the difficulties and obstacles.

So mate, while respecting your opinion, and your right to disagree, i think you are dead farkin' wrong.

But feel free to disagree with me too. :)

"This is my keyboard. there are many like it, but this one is mine..."

*sniff sniff* whoa i smell fire :lol:
You told him.

[Saranof]

in other words, according to the article posted, if you protest you are either an islamic extremist or a stalinist, maoist, or a castrist. wow, didn't realise there were that many stalinists in england... that article is beyond idiotic... rofl

apparently you don't realize that the ORGANIZERS of the protests are islamic extremists and communists. in the US, there is a group called A.N.S.W.E.R. that is a front for a dozen communist and socialist groups. they are also responsible for organizing many 'major' protests in the US.

The word "communist" probably dosn't mean anything to you, but nevermind.
The problem ONLY americans have, is the freedom of speach. It's ok to bomb the carp out of poor countrys in it's name.
But to allow people to excise it, is in their book something bad.

And you wonder why everone hates the US... :roll:

[Seoulstriker]

in other words, according to the article posted, if you protest you are either an islamic extremist or a stalinist, maoist, or a castrist. wow, didn't realise there were that many stalinists in england... that article is beyond idiotic... rofl

apparently you don't realize that the ORGANIZERS of the protests are islamic extremists and communists. in the US, there is a group called A.N.S.W.E.R. that is a front for a dozen communist and socialist groups. they are also responsible for organizing many 'major' protests in the US.

The word "communist" probably dosn't mean anything to you, but nevermind.
The problem ONLY americans have, is the freedom of speach. It's ok to bomb the carp out of poor countrys in it's name.
But to allow people to excise it, is in their book something bad.

And you wonder why everone hates the US... :roll:

nice try. my point is that when you look at the protesters, you see peaceful people wanting peace around the world and people who believe that bush is a threat to peace-loving hippies around the world.

understand this: these are no ordinary people who are protesting. many of them are the 'dregs' of society, who have no other place in society other than protesting everything from the west. they have an intense hatred towards anything western. wow. that sounds like muslim extremists, the people who are protesting bush! hmmmmmm......

i am certainly not saying that it is not right for some people to exercise their free speech. i'm saying that these protesters do not want others (people of iraq and afghanistan) to practice their inherent freedoms.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Seoulstriker]

and you wonder why everyone hates sweden. :roll:

[Argyll]

They hate Sweden because of "Meatballs" and "Ulrika Jonson"!! ;)

Its a crying shame that Tony Blair did not put the same effort and resources into fighting the PIRA!!

[gaz]

I have no particular wish to defend the peace protestors but in this case I think I will. The bombings happened around mid-day UK time. At this point the protests were already underway, it's unlikely that many of the protestors were carrying radios or anything else with which they could recieve news, so it's a good chance that many of them had no idea of the bombings until they returned home.

[Nawlins]

sorry Nawlins i am not googd at picking up humour through short comments....please fogive me................................maybe you should have put the stickers on it.


No harm done. You're right, tone of voice doesn't come through so well on here. I'll tag it next time.

[Vance]

No, everyone hates Sweden because of Survivor.

[M203]

Yepp, and the last season of the swedish survivor starts tomorrow!

If you now swedish :) you can read about some of the actions of the 80 man strong unit SSG doing business in kongo
http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=81974

/Have a good one

[marktigger]

all this wingeing about people partying after someone dies...... None of you ever heard of a WAKE its a party for the person who's dead. Its a good thing cause it lets people remember the good things in a happy enviroment.

[fairly left]

hello,


i'm slightly dismayed with the arrogance and in fact down right contempt shown on this board for others opinions and beliefs.

I went marching and am not a communist.

On the no marching because of the suicide attack in Turkey i can say that I did know before i left the house. I marched because I felt (wrongly or rightly) that Bush and Blairs foreign policy (more specifically the 'War on Terror') is actually increasing rather than decreasing the threat of terrorism. Therefore I marched to try and stop such acts being committed again. Also perhaps its worth noting that 25,000 people starved to death that day, followed by a further 25,000 the next day etc etc. This has got a large amount to do with western agricultural and aid policy. Also did you know that:

The White House puts the cost of a single cruise missile at $ 800,000. 320 cruise missiles were launched in the opening blitz of Baghdad- costing a total of $256 million. The cost of just two of these missiles would feed 270,000 hungry people in Angola for a month - (The Observer)

Perhaps war is the route of terrorism not the result of it? Anyway now a more general rant on Iraq:

I would like to point out that the idea of 'liberation' in iraq is laughable, the war has killed over 8000 innocent civilians (did you party when the statue toppled?). 8000 people is a lot of people to be without liberation letalone those people who the deaths will have affected.

Now that Saddam has gone do you really think we have Iraqi interest at heart? We are in the proccess of a very quick privitisation of iraq which will exploit the people and make the rich richer. A few will benefit but most will not. Slice of Iraq anyone???

Supplemantary to this are the high levels of Iraqi debt. In fact and astounding $16,000 for every man, women and child. This means that without any living expenses each Iraqi must wortk 123 years just to pay off national debt (doesn't include interest). These debts were mostly a laon from western countries (US and GB playing a huge role). They are the debt of a former regimer. People are being forced by their so called liberators to pay for their own oppression... Perhaps even more importantly these debts should never have even been granted. They are just as much a cause of the regime's brutality as the man himself. They will cripple the Iraqis and stop ANY FORM of proper re-building.

Saddam has done his thing with our help and now it looks like its our turn to once more screw the Iraqi people. Give them independance, drop odious debt and help them not profit of them...

[Sabre]

So, the people who go out marching are the dregs of society? I can see that Seoul is going to work in a nice clean private practice when he qualifies.

Nearly 1 Million people turned out against the war in Iraq before it started. Does that mean that 1 in 60 of the UK population are wasters and anti-western extremists?

I can tell all of you that the majority of the people protesting would be NORMAL F***ING PEOPLE!!!

NOT hippies

NOT communists (because they are too busy putting bugs under your beds at night...paranoid yanks)

NOT 'dregs'!

If people want to protest against something, and it's not going to be violent or destructive, we let them in britain. I think some people refer to it as freedom of speech. Aparantly, some countries guarantee it as part of their constitutions. We don't have a written one so we're quite lucky we let people have it.

Like this.

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2003/a/DSCN1442.JPG


Not this.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/wto/gallery/photo/photo3.jpg

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/wto/gallery/photo/photo4.jpg

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/wto/gallery/photo/photo7.jpg

Or this.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/wto/gallery/photo/photo15.jpg

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/wto/gallery/photo/photo18.jpg

And definately not this.

http://employeeweb.cgc.maricopa.edu/n/ix/nixon/darrin-P/Filo's.jpg

[RobT]

To answer the question in the topic title i'd say that most of the demonstrators did it because they think its fasionable. Half of them are little kids having a laugh or muslims who think their motherland is being attacked.


England has been hit with a massive influx of Muslims, due to its liberal immigration & social policies.

Send the buggers back! send the buggers back! (i'm not a racists its a tune from peter kays pheonix nights)

Well when i see asian people on the news saying "I love Britian but my religion comes first and i will fight for my religion" (but not their country) Then i makes me think why am i training to put my arse on the line and defend these f*ckers while Coalition Soldiers get slotted daily by cowards having a ji-had!

And people wonder why the BNP is getting mpore popular!? (i dont agree with the BNP btw)

[Roger Rabbit]

I know this appears a little off the topic but has anyone seen one the Southpark episodes from the last series. I think its called "I'm a little bit country." Anyway in it then the kids are offered the chance to have the day off school if they protest the war or they can go to school as normal. There were quite a lot of school kids protesting over the war in Iraq, personally i think it was more for these reasons than anything else, they wanted time off school and they wanted to feel they were making a difference, very few would have actually known much if anything about Iraq and WMDs or even the connection with oil.

This brings me on to my next point. Big Brother during the elections a couple of years ago then 1 of the women in the house voted Labour because "i don't really know but everyone else is doing it." :cantbeli:

My point, well there are a lot of people who are very ignorant and this influences their opinions. Its not going to change, this is just life, not everybody wants to spend a lot of time on political issues.

[martinexsquaddie]

being a labour supporter I'd agree quite a few of the schoolkids were having a day off.
but a muslim to argue I'd fight against uk troop should just be slotted on the spot :(

[cut]

Bush (liberator of Iraq) = Hussein (mass murderer)

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bush (killed the iraqi army) = Hussein (still alive)

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Eddie]

hello,


The White House puts the cost of a single cruise missile at $ 800,000. 320 cruise missiles were launched in the opening blitz of Baghdad- costing a total of $256 million. The cost of just two of these missiles would feed 270,000 hungry people in Angola for a month - (The Observer)


Hello yourself fairly left! I normally keep away from these arguments but you just pushed me over the edge! I guess your just a 15- year old school kid with no experience other than you see on tv. Have you ever been to a country which is worse of than your own? Giving a cost of two cruise missiles to feed the people of Angola is just an example of how people who have no idea about the world think. I did a 12 month peacekeeping tour in Africa, and while we were there we really tried to help the locals. Most of the stuff our cimic unit gave them was later seen in the market for sale. For example desks and benches for local schools, sporting equipment for kids etc.
I do believe we should help, but not by giving them stuff. Instead there should be more instruction to farmers etc. on how they should do things. If we just give stuff it'll teach them nothing. I believe the people in Africa are as competent as we are with the right guidance.

fairly left wrote

Supplemantary to this are the high levels of Iraqi debt. In fact and astounding $16,000 for every man, women and child. This means that without any living expenses each Iraqi must wortk 123 years just to pay off national debt (doesn't include interest). These debts were mostly a laon from western countries (US and GB playing a huge role).
OK, the UK and the US are the bad guys...

Iraq's debts
Today, business analyst Steve Marr writes of Iraq's finances " There is 120 billion in foreign debt, 60 billion in current pending contracts, and an expected additional 150 billion due in war reparations from the past. With future oil revenues of 20-25 billion per year, the debt is unmanageable. After oil field expenses, an amount of only about 10 billion dollars is available for rebuilding and debt payments." The 3 largest creditor nations are, in order of amount loaned, Russia, France, and Germany.

Wake up!

[cut]

hello,


The White House puts the cost of a single cruise missile at $ 800,000. 320 cruise missiles were launched in the opening blitz of Baghdad- costing a total of $256 million. The cost of just two of these missiles would feed 270,000 hungry people in Angola for a month - (The Observer)


Hello yourself fairly left! I normally keep away from these arguments but you just pushed me over the edge! I guess your just a 15- year old school kid with no experience other than you see on tv. Have you ever been to a country which is worse of than your own? Giving a cost of two cruise missiles to feed the people of Angola is just an example of how people who have no idea about the world think. I did a 12 month peacekeeping tour in Africa, and while we were there we really tried to help the locals. Most of the stuff our cimic unit gave them was later seen in the market for sale. For example desks and benches for local schools, sporting equipment for kids etc.
I do believe we should help, but not by giving them stuff. Instead there should be more instruction to farmers etc. on how they should do things. If we just give stuff it'll teach them nothing. I believe the people in Africa are as competent as we are with the right guidance.

fairly left wrote

Supplemantary to this are the high levels of Iraqi debt. In fact and astounding $16,000 for every man, women and child. This means that without any living expenses each Iraqi must wortk 123 years just to pay off national debt (doesn't include interest). These debts were mostly a laon from western countries (US and GB playing a huge role).
OK, the UK and the US are the bad guys...

Iraq's debts
Today, business analyst Steve Marr writes of Iraq's finances " There is 120 billion in foreign debt, 60 billion in current pending contracts, and an expected additional 150 billion due in war reparations from the past. With future oil revenues of 20-25 billion per year, the debt is unmanageable. After oil field expenses, an amount of only about 10 billion dollars is available for rebuilding and debt payments." The 3 largest creditor nations are, in order of amount loaned, Russia, France, and Germany.

Wake up!

whatever happened to free will? everyone sells weapons.. I'll argue this point later though, I have an essay to finish and hand in at 3 (1 1/2 hours)

but I will be back! :D :)

[Hydro]

Sure, the value of two missiles'd feed god knows how many Angolans until the end of the world. The money you spend on your Internet connection could feed them. But that's money you've reserved for a specific purpose, rather like the money used to develop those missiles. I know, let's drop the UK's defence budget and send the money we save to Africa!!!

OR: We could invest in training and educating those starving people to start helping themselves, through money set aside for it.

[ittnofjas]

Rumsfeld wins "Foot in the mouth" award...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10&u=/nm/20031201/od_uk_nm/oukoe_odd_rumsfeld

What about the mastermind on top?

Not enough feets in the world....

[fairly left]

To Eddie:


I guess your just a 15- year old school kid with no experience other than you see on tv. Have you ever been to a country which is worse of than your own?

well actually no. Im 18 so clearly I fall into this boards 'young and ignorant' catogory but actually I have direct experience of other countries. I've been to Africa and worked on commuity projects and will be working in the rainforest for 5 months from January.

I believe in a 'bottom up' aid approach, however in some respects I think your comments were right, people cant simply rely on hand-outs. But the fact of the matter is that in the vast majority of cases people who are STARVING wil take food you give them, in fact it will save their lives. To me this is infinately better than buying two missiles - end of story. Of course giving out food wont solve all the problems of a country but its a start. Want another fact?

A mere 7.5% ( £3 billion) of the US Department of Defence's initial demanded budget for financing the war in Iraq ( £40 billion ) could achieve universal primary education, reduce adult illiteracy by 50% and educate women and to the level of men.
( The Observer/ CAFOD )

is this the sort of thing we are talking about? I would reckon so. The people of a country in my opinion know infinately better their own needs than ourselves. Our imposed solutions on percieved problems is actually detrimental (see poppy fields in Afghanistan for proof). Hand-outs will and cannot solve everything but they must be better than killing people no?



The 3 largest creditor nations are, in order of amount loaned, Russia, France, and Germany.

Wake up!


please note what I said.



These debts were mostly a laon from western countries (US and GB playing a huge role).

My comment just said that UK and US played a large role in Iraqi finance. We did, I see no problem here. Plus we were responsible for a large amount of the weapons deals...




To PWRR:

The need for food is something we all have in common. Every day, everyone, everywhere needs it. However, 800 million people in the ‘developing’ world are hungry and live in fear of starvation. If someone is starving they need food or they will die. Training and sustainablitly can come after their body stops eating itself... I agree we must then look at sustainable alternatives.



But that's money you've reserved for a specific purpose, rather like the money used to develop those missiles

sorry this is a poor argument. We cant help people with that money - no, we reserved that money for killing people instead!

And on the subject of setting aside money, your right we should. In fact we should set targets and live upto them. Something like The Millenium Development Goals agreement which promised Africans a sum in the region of $25-35 billion a year. Shame we miss it by over $10billion anually isnt it? The cost of one single Stealth Bomber is $1.26 billion. Please just imagine how many lives this could save when next seeing it flying high in the sky...

[RobT]

but a muslim to argue I'd fight against uk troop should just be slotted on the spot :(

What does that mean?

You'd kill UK Troops on the spot? eh?

[Seoulstriker]

what rumsfeld said makes perfect sense, but it is indeed convoluted.

[martinexsquaddie]

sorry brain fade
any Muslim prepared to state publicly they would fight against British soldiers should consider themselves a legitimate Target and be used for target practice as quickly as possible :)