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jizzmonkey
11-18-2003, 09:51 PM
BAGHDAD, Iraq — With lots of debate over what kind of government would be best for a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, consider the suggestion of Adnan the antiques dealer.





"Give us a king!" shouts Adnan Jawhri, a weathered but hardly defeated-looking Iraqi whose stall is the last on the right down the main path of the Al Safafir (search) market in Baghdad's run-down Old Town.

By his own unverifiable account, Adnan is 62 years old, but he might be a decade older. He claims he knew Iraq's former King Faisal II (search), who was overthrown and assassinated in 1958, 21 years before Saddam came to power.

"He was a good man, a good king," says Adnan. "He was strong and that is what Iraqis want — a strong leader."

Strong leader? Doesn't that sound like a thug named Saddam that the U.S. just dislodged?

"He wasn't strong, he was just cruel," says Adnan. "I don't care about the politics and the politicians. They're all the same. But a king — that's what we need."

If his claim is true, that would mean Adnan spent his teenage years in the presence of Faisal II, the cousin of Jordan's late King Hussein, who was executed by the Iraqi military. Whether true or not, Adnan's bubbly personality and why-speak-when-you-can-shout conversational style make him a welcome change from the normal surly lot of Baghdadis.

I met Adnan for the first time in 2002, during the last months of Saddam's demented reign. Even then, he spoke his mind, though not about the Iraqi dictator.

"Feel my biceps," he commands, then crooks his arm for inspection and awaits the inevitable compliment. Adnan is wiry, strong and tough, as well as tough-minded.

"Every night I lift weights while I pray," he boasts, then lapses into an un-asked-for and off-key chant that could be a prayer or, for all I know, a breakfast-cereal jingle.

Adnan is one of those few Iraqis who gets by on sheer verve, a joie de vivre that has served him well, but could just as easily have landed him in Saddam's archipelago of the missing, the doomed and the dead.

Adnan's antiques boutique is an eclectic holding house of time-worn treasures and outright junk. Adnan does not use persuasion to lure customers in so much as main force. His tree-trunk arms allow no polite demurrals. When he heard me speaking English last year, he decided we would be friends. My opinion was not sought.



Even in those waning days of terror, Adnan told captivating tales of his travels as a young man, to old Beirut, to Nasser's Cairo and age-old Damascus. Despite opportunities to remain abroad, he always returned to Baghdad.

"Why not?" he demanded. "It's my home more than his."

It was not necessary for him to mention the Tikrit-born dictator by name.

In Saddam's day, he says he made $1,000 a month selling carpets, water pipes and, riskily, portraits of Faisal II. Now, he laments, "The tourists don't come anymore," and his income has been halved.

He pooh-poohs the suggestion that Westerners, and especially Americans, might find Baghdad a tad risky, what with snipers and car bombers running about.

"Why, in Allah's holy name?" Adnan howls. "You have your very own army here to protect you, just as it is protecting us."

Naiveté, or a silk trader's sarcasm? With Adnan, one never knows.

John Moody is senior vice president of Fox News.

jizzmonkey
11-18-2003, 09:52 PM
I'm just wondering what anyones thoughts are on this article, seems pretty down to earth, considering cultural differences.

Beowulf
11-18-2003, 10:01 PM
I'm just wondering what anyones thoughts are on this article, seems pretty down to earth, considering cultural differences.
The desire of an average Iraqi for a King, isn't contrary to my experience. The middle easterners that I encountered were not able to deal with choices very well. They couldn't make decisions on their own unless they absolutely had to.

They did however respond to authority very readily. When I visited schools I noticed that there was always one kid in a class with a stick who was in charge, especially if the teahcer left. He would give a kid a pretty good whack if he got out of line. They also responded fairly well to verbal commands, even though I'm sure I butchered their language pretty well. p-)

-b

Beowulf
11-18-2003, 10:03 PM
these are of course generalizations....not true across the board and perhaps not true for all middle easterners.....but generally I found the above to be true.

One?
11-18-2003, 10:09 PM
If you go to southern iraq they would call for an islamic state. Go up north they want a kurdistan. Central Iraq want a king or a regular government.

The arab world is messed up because they have to satisfy every sect and every religion otherwise they would feel opressed. If you call for a democracy then the majority would be Shia muslims and the sunnis or christians wont like that. Also the kurds want a piece.

The best way to do it IMO is limit the parliamentary seatings to every sect. Shia get 10 sunnis get 11 christians get 9 kurds get 8 etc....

jizzmonkey
11-18-2003, 10:11 PM
They did however respond to authority very readily. When I visited schools I noticed that there was always one kid in a class with a stick who was in charge, especially if the teahcer left. He would give a kid a pretty good whack if he got out of line. They also responded fairly well to verbal commands, even though I'm sure I butchered their language pretty well. p-)

-b[/quote]

thats very "prison culture", the peking order thing working to a teachers advantage, thats really weird, I was always under the impresion that middle eastereners werent to kind to the idea of a monarchy, eventhough widley implemented.

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
11-18-2003, 10:37 PM
Well if they do get a "King" rofl who says the King of Iraq would not be as crooked or cruel as Saddam?

jizzmonkey
11-18-2003, 10:52 PM
Good question, I think I like the parlimentary idea better.

WARPIG
11-19-2003, 11:36 AM
Sounds pretty likely that the region will eventually split. Western ideals of a strong government are much different from eastern. Our differences in politics and religion are mostly similar. Our basic fundamental thinking is the same but the interpretations are the biggest difference. (rep vs dem... christian, catholic, jewish, etc.) Eastern and Middle Eastern religious and political differences seem much more defined and thus much harder to find a medium between them. The old timer's idea of a King is an expected reaction when seeing the deep rifts between political ideals in the region. A consolidation of them all would likely result in indecision and bickering in the government. At least a monarch would have final say and rule would be autocratic. Pretty simplistic, take away the reason for debate and there will be less debate. Too bad it isn't realistic.

Seiyuuki
11-19-2003, 02:20 PM
Might as well make Iraq three different countries.

Royal
11-19-2003, 02:40 PM
Might as well make Iraq three different countries.

That's what the Germans thought when they supported the break-up on Yugoslavia - look where that led :(

WARPIG
11-19-2003, 02:46 PM
Good point. Still, expecting a country with divides among the people as deep and historical as Iraq's to accept western democracy.... is a tall order.

budanski
11-19-2003, 02:47 PM
Oh, but it was a great idea when the Brits created a little know country by the name of Iraq from the old Ottoman Empire. :roll:

He219
11-19-2003, 03:00 PM
Don't forget about the French, budanski.

The Brits and French carved up the Ottoman empire and other territorial gains from WWI (German East Africa & South Pacific) to serve their own colonial ambitions.

Unfortunately, most of the regional conflicts there are based on those 'established' borders.

:|

Royal
11-19-2003, 03:02 PM
Oh, but it was a great idea when the Brits created a little know country by the name of Iraq from the old Ottoman Empire. :roll:

We were also involved in the creation of Yugoslavia from the Ottoman and Hapsburg empires too. Credit where credit's due ;)

Doesn't mean that breaking them up was/is a good idea.

budanski
11-19-2003, 03:02 PM
Did they have NeoCons then? ;)

Royal
11-19-2003, 03:03 PM
Good point. Still, expecting a country with divides among the people as deep and historical as Iraq's to accept western democracy.... is a tall order.

I agree with you 100% - personally I don't think any real form of democracy will work. The market trader who wanted his king back may be onto something ;)

budanski
11-19-2003, 03:06 PM
Someone wanted the "King" back? Yeah, they're looking for him in Santa Barbara. ;)

He219
11-19-2003, 03:14 PM
Good point. Still, expecting a country with divides among the people as deep and historical as Iraq's to accept western democracy.... is a tall order.

I agree with you 100% - personally I don't think any real form of democracy will work. The market trader who wanted his king back may be onto something ;)

Iraq is one of the most advanced ME cultures. The instiutions formed under British rule, namely the Educational System, Military and Civil Services, were the model for Iraq's modern society.

Of all Arab nations, Iraq provided the greatest potential for women. Traditional Arab tribal factions were dominated by centralized, albeit tyranical, Bathist control.

This is why I believe Iraq of any ME nation is most prepared to embrace liberty and democracy. We just have get Saddam first.

Saranof
11-19-2003, 03:25 PM
Many of the problems in africa are caused by the splitting of ethnic groups by the imperialists.