Winning hearts and minds, or: How not to.

[spier]

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/18/sprj.irq.tactics/index.html
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military has begun leveling houses and buildings used by suspected Iraqi guerrilla fighters in a new tactic which is part of a more aggressive strategy aimed at crushing the anti-American insurgency, Pentagon officials said Tuesday.

Pentagon officials rejected any comparison to the tactics employed by the Israeli military in the West bank and Gaza, saying the U.S. actions are not aimed at punishing sympathizers, but rather are aimed at eliminating legitimate military targets.

Israel Defense Forces characterized its tactics in a September 30 statement: "The demolition of the houses of terrorists sends a message that anyone who participates in terrorist activity will pay a price for their actions."

"Coalition forces are continuing to target any building that may be used by anti-coalition forces to plan attacks, produce weapons or harbor insurgents," a Pentagon spokesman told CNN.

"These measures are not punitive in nature, they are strictly targeting those responsible for recent attacks against the coalition and the infrastructure used repeatedly to sustain those attacks," he said. (Full story)

Pentagon sources said one home destroyed Sunday night with multiple launch rocket fire belonged to Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, the second most wanted man in Iraq, after Saddam Hussein.

Al-douri was Saddam's top deputy, and is suspected of orchestrating many of the recent attacks against U.S. forces and the Iraqis who support them.

Sources said U.S. troops from the 4th Infantry Division destroyed the house by using an Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) to level the structure, which was located about 31 miles west of Kirkuk.

The house was one of more than a dozen structures the U.S. military has destroyed in recent days in an effort to "deny sanctuary" to those who are fighting the U.S. occupation force.
'Use a sledge hammer to crush a walnut'

"I think it demonstrates our resolve," Maj. Gen. Charles Swannack, commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, told a Baghdad briefing Tuesday. "This is war. And we're going to prosecute the war not holding one hand behind our back. When we identify positively an enemy target we're going to go ahead and take it out with every means available."

Pentagon officials stressed that in all cases, the U.S. has gone to "extraordinary means" to notify civilians that they need to evacuate the area before any attacks were carried out. And before any building was destroyed, nearby roads were closed to minimize the chance of unintended civilian casualties.

The United States has used a number of methods to destroy buildings, everything from tanks to air strikes.

Among the attack aircraft employed are F-15s, F-16s, AC-130 gunships, A-10 attack planes, and Apache helicopters.

"I think that as commanders, we might have been a little bit reluctant previously to use aerial gunships AC-130 or U.S. Air Force aircraft and precision guided munitions," said Swannack.

"Now there's no-holds-barred on what we use. We use what necessary capabilities and combat power that we need to use to go ahead and take the fight to the enemy and also minimize collateral damage."

In Saddam's home town of Tikrit Monday, an Iraqi woman sat among the rubble of a house destroyed by U.S. strikes.

"They destroyed our houses and expelled us. We now have no salaries and no house. Our children are sick. What shall we do?" she complained.

U.S. soldiers said the several homes were targeted as part of phase two of Operation Ivy Cyclone after they were determined to be enemy mortar positions.

Asked if the United States risked alienating the Iraqi population with such heavy-handed tactics, Swannack replied, "I like to remember what Viscount Slim said during the Burma Campaign. He said use a sledge hammer to crush a walnut, and that's exactly what we will do. We will use force overwhelming combat power when it's necessary." rofl Getting a bit desperate are we? Oh well, we all know what this will lead to.

[WARPIG]

Idiot.
Are you reading the content of your post? When guerrillas and terrorists are consistantly hitting patrols and defensive positions, you have to go on the offense and hit them. It takes the initiative away from them and instead of battle in the streets at the enemy's chosing, you take the fight to them. The majority of the attacks are being carried out by hired thugs. If you use a big military force to smash some smaller targets, you take the fight out of the rest of them. Scare tactics, yes. Desperation, no. This isn't a new development.
The only thing out of place is the Israeli justification for their military actions. Legitimate targets vs targetting sympathizers .. two totally different things. Scare tactics against other combatants helps you win without having to kill all of them. Scare tactics against sympathizers is terrorism.

[NcDeuce]

Quit reading the media articles man.

Go out and talk to the guys who have ACTUALLY GONE OVER THERE, experienced living with the Iraqis, and help build a *******.

[spier]

Actually, I suggest that you read what I post(I included the most important points in the quote below, just for you):

Coalition forces are continuing to target any building that may be used by anti-coalition forces to plan attacks, produce weapons or harbor insurgents[where have I heard this one before..hmmm...HMMM!]

In Saddam's home town of Tikrit Monday, an Iraqi woman sat among the rubble of a house destroyed by U.S. strikes.

"They destroyed our houses and expelled us. We now have no salaries and no house. Our children are sick. What shall we do?" she complained.

U.S. soldiers said the several homes were targeted as part of phase two of Operation Ivy Cyclone after they were determined to be enemy mortar positions.I put my favourite bit in bold. The US actions might not be intended to punish innocent civilians, but they do. Note that they also tell civilians to get away from their homes before they level them. That has got to be one of the most effective ways of making new enemies, ever.

If scaring people into liking you isn't desperate, then what is?

****, getting senile or something, I forgot: Idiot.

[spier]

Quit reading the media articles man.

Go out and talk to the guys who have ACTUALLY GONE OVER THERE, experienced living with the Iraqis, and help build a *******.I try, but they won't ****ing answer me:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0303/693f3e768a97a55acd86e.jpeghttp://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0303/285298b25f59f8e2f434e.jpeg
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0303/1a2e1dcfa7315f7a25c64.jpeg

(sorry, but idiotic posts get idiotic replies..)

[spoonman]

you're a sick and pathetic individual.

[WARPIG]

Just to back up.. I replied to your comment not your post. Granted. The tuffer tactics aren't going to help win the hearts and minds of Iraqi's. Your right. War is kind of funny that way.
Security needs to get under control though. It is a necessary evil. We are still at war there.
The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)
It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.
Robert E. Lee (1807 - 1870)
I've quoted them before but I think they apply here.


oh.. since we are doing the flame thing now....
Spier.. you turdburgler! :backhand:

[Argyll]

Spoonman wrote

you're a sick and pathetic individual.

Perhaps,but there is a sinister tone to your view,would you approve of the showing of dead Iraqi KIA's,or victims of terrorist atrocities,and before anyone spouts their crap about being a liberal,or a leftie ,or whatever.
I do not see the need to post pics of any casualties of war,irrespective of their side!!
But to provide a balanced view,and to allow others to form their opinions they have to be able to see things from both sides,and that unfortunately means that you either accept boths sides pictures of death!
There are many here in this forum who are teenage boys who think that war is cool,and that seeing dead Iraqi's is something to gloat about,and some get their kicks out of it...................very sad and pathetic!
There are others here who have been in combat and seen the mess war makes up close and real personal,they do not glorify war,they reflect on the suffering,the shock and stress associated with it!!There will be a huge increase in PTSD when some of these boys return from their TOD in Iraq,some will go onto to commit suicide,others will go into deep depression,all over things they've seen and done,and they will have to fight another war and their demons when they return home,families will be torn apart,wives will no longer recognise their husbands,fathers will no longer recognise their sons,and the pain will be enormous.
On the flip side to this is that there Iraqis who are in the same boat,they too still fought the war,just because they were the enemy does not mean they behave differently,or feel the same pain and anguish.
War is not glamorous,it is not cool,it is certainly not a video game,war is the failings of mankind to understand each other!!

[Erik]

The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)
It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it.
Robert E. Lee (1807 - 1870)
I've quoted them before but I think they apply here.


oh.. since we are doing the flame thing now....
Spier.. you turdburgler! :backhand:
That constant quoting of actually intelligent people is totally gay :|

The first post on this thread was good and reasoned. The replys were totally retarded.

And about the article. Violence creates violence, Israel & co is a grim example of that.


Legitimate targets vs targetting sympathizers

Israel:"We have reason to believe they were bases for terrorists"
Coalition:"We have reason to believe they were bases for terrorists"

No difference except in the coalition part one can also replace terrorists with guerillas.

[parker82nd]

spier, your a sick bastard. " I would but they wont ****ing answer me." You think that is funny? Amerian troops dead? I would love to meet ya and take ya to meet some American soldier and tell them that. It would be fun. Your the kinda piece of **** that makes the world so ****ed up. I wish i could watch you in Iraq as you ran across the street and got your ass gunned down. Then I would post your picture on here and say, " well helll I was trying to talk to him but his ass woudnt answer me." You are a bitch, you'lll always be bitch. Pray to whatever god you have that you and I never meet. If we do....... :bash:

[spoonman]

Perhaps,but there is a sinister tone to your view,would you approve of the showing of dead Iraqi KIA's,or victims of terrorist atrocities.


i do not approve of propaganda showing the dead from any side.


I do not see the need to post pics of any casualties of war,irrespective of their side!!

neither do i.

[parker82nd]

Oh yea and Argyll, I dont think it was posting picture of dead American soldiers that really pissed him off, i think it was that stupid ass comment he made. And if you agreee with him then go **** a tree and jerk off to some flowers.

[Jack Mehoff]

spier,

You are a ****ing pathetic sick ****.

[Jack Mehoff]

Spoonman wrote

you're a sick and pathetic individual.

Perhaps,but there is a sinister tone to your view,would you approve of the showing of dead Iraqi KIA's,or victims of terrorist atrocities,and before anyone spouts their crap about being a liberal,or a leftie ,or whatever.
I do not see the need to post pics of any casualties of war,irrespective of their side!!
But to provide a balanced view,and to allow others to form their opinions they have to be able to see things from both sides,and that unfortunately means that you either accept boths sides pictures of death!
There are many here in this forum who are teenage boys who think that war is cool,and that seeing dead Iraqi's is something to gloat about,and some get their kicks out of it...................very sad and pathetic!
There are others here who have been in combat and seen the mess war makes up close and real personal,they do not glorify war,they reflect on the suffering,the shock and stress associated with it!!There will be a huge increase in PTSD when some of these boys return from their TOD in Iraq,some will go onto to commit suicide,others will go into deep depression,all over things they've seen and done,and they will have to fight another war and their demons when they return home,families will be torn apart,wives will no longer recognise their husbands,fathers will no longer recognise their sons,and the pain will be enormous.
On the flip side to this is that there Iraqis who are in the same boat,they too still fought the war,just because they were the enemy does not mean they behave differently,or feel the same pain and anguish.
War is not glamorous,it is not cool,it is certainly not a video game,war is the failings of mankind to understand each other!!

Time for me to post some dead Brits

[duck]

Like Prince Philip?

[WARPIG]

combatants(legitamate targets) vs non combatants(sympathizers)
what is gay is your ignorance.
I already told spier that I made a mistake. I replied to his comment and not the post. The post is right about the agressive combat actions hurting the "winning hearts and minds" movement. Stunning revelation, I know.
Your reply is retarded. Read the posts before you reply you dip****.
Just to enlighten a moron like you... using quotes from the past is a way to show that common sense and intellect from the past is still valid for current and future circumstances. Using quotes from intelligent people to link similar concepts is how educated and informed people communicate common concepts. Way over your head erik i know. Here, I will list some quotes that relate to you.
Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.(explains your unlimited stupidity)
To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. ~Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)(funny how someone from a "neutral" country criticises the actions of a country who dares to act)
That constant quoting of actually intelligent people is totally gay Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do.
~Dale Carnegie
Here's a new idea for you. I'll get you a spoon so you can eat my ass!
I say, why don't you guys locate your ****s, remove the shrink wrap, and ****ing *use* them!
~Steve Stifler (just for the sheer eloquence of the stiffmeister!)

[XASA]

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that there are people who enjoy instigating "flame wars," and on this forum it doesn't take much to do so. I remember a Veterans' Day thread Spier poisoned for no reason other then to attract attention to himself. Being against current U.S. policy and OIF and stating your view isn't the problem; there are many respected regulars who do so on a regular basis. Cheering the deaths of soldiers, however, who have nothing to do with policy is repugnant.

Responding to idiots like Spier, ode, ducimus, Mortimer and others just empowers them to continue with their rabid posts. They're not here to debate or even to argue but to inject their sordid viewpoint on others-- and they enjoy getting forum members angry.

Ignore them and they will crawl back under a rock like the maggots they are.

[spier]

spier, your a sick bastard. " I would but they wont f*** answer me." You think that is funny? Well, actually...

Being against current U.S. policy and OIF and stating your view isn't the problem; there are many respected regulars who do so on a regular basis.I am not against OIF nor am I against the US in any way.

Time for me to post some dead BritsIf you look carefully then you will see that the two first pics are in fact Brits.

WARPIG, I found a quote for you:
Pretend you're smart: use quotes!

I'll admit that my post was disrespectful, but TF160SOAR made it a necessary.

[parker82nd]

Hey your right, they cant help it that they are a buncha pussies. Startin a flame war is just what they want. I say we all have a militaryphotos.net banquet somewhere and spier can be "the guest of honor" we are gonna have a "cookout" for him.

[parker82nd]

Oh so you do think it is funny? hmm i guess your right, i mean hell if i saw you lying there with your legs mangaled up and head blwon off i would find it kinda funnny myself. Haha i mean your right if i can just picture your ass dying i do get a good laugh outta it.

[hood]

This thread has been locked and the author's account disabled for breaking rule 2.5 prohibiting direct linking of graphic or gory photos.