Hackworth at it again, defends West

[jizzmonkey]

Hackworth: Fire The Perfumed Princes Now



November 12, 2003

U.S. Army conventional brass, in their infinite wisdom, are about to throw the book at a good soldier for doing what savvy combat leaders have done since before the invention of gunpowder: deep-six the regs to protect the troops and win fights.

According to a 4th Infantry Division staff weenie, battalion skipper Lt. Col. Allen B. West violated the Rules of Interrogation -- designed by a platoon of legal beagles far removed from the Iraqi killing fields of the Sunni Triangle, where West and his soldiers have been slugging it out since Saddam Hussein disappeared.

West's sin was firing two pistol shots into the air and ground while questioning an Iraqi police officer who was aiding local terrorists and putting West's soldiers in their cross-hairs on a regular basis.

In my outfit, West would have gotten a pat on the back and been told to press on. But even though the double-crossing turncoat spilled his guts -- enabling West's unit to ambush the ambushers -- West is looking at serious slammer-time if found guilty by court-martial.

From what I've discovered, this street-smart leader used the right tactics and techniques, while his commander, Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno, played Political Correctness -- a popular sport with our star-wearers and a major reason why the guerrillas are scoring so successfully in Iraq.

After six months of light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel propaganda from the Bush administration reinforced by sycophants like Odierno, I'm convinced few generals on the ground in Iraq understand either the nature of insurgency warfare in general or their specific terrorist enemy.

Which isn't exactly breaking news. We've lost campaign after campaign because most of our brass, from George Custer of Little Bighorn to Thomas Montgomery of "Black Hawk Down" in Somalia, never bothered to understand the nature of guerrilla warfare.

Sure, the U.S. military brilliantly won the tactical war in Iraq with "shock and awe," but no amount of spin can shift the reality that it has been losing the early innings of the occupation phase. The generals so eager to court-martial colonels for doing their jobs should be court-martialed themselves for not doing their duty and confronting SecDef Donald Rumsfeld before we invaded Iraq.

Had they done so, we wouldn't be dealing with the aftermath of an inept war plan that provided neither enough troops nor sufficient command guidance to prevent the looting and violence that fueled the ever-expanding guerrilla conflict, a conflict that Col. West and other heroes have been stuck in since Commander-in-Chief Bush blithely declared the end of major combat in Iraq last May.

Last April, the only ministry that our forces protected was the Oil Ministry. The rest of the ministries and infrastructure were sacked while our troops looked the other way, and the Iraqi people watched the nuts and bolts of their future Iraqi government being hauled away in hijacked trucks.

Because there was no coherent strategy in the early weeks of the occupation, our top brass responded to events rather than taking charge. Reaction rather than action allowed the insurgents to gain the initiative right from the get-go. And they're still at it, brazenly displaying the same bold MO as they continue inflicting carefully planned pain on our increasingly weary combat forces.

The generals should also be brought up for not fighting the dumb White House decision to disband the Iraqi army. Instead of integrating that 450,000-man force into the stabilization process -- and using it for reconstruction and certain security ops, which would have helped our badly stretched troops gain control over the looters and get the country up and running -- we made it our enemy. Thousands of trained and armed Iraqi soldiers couldn't make tracks fast enough to join the insurgent movement.

The conventional generals like Odierno should be replaced by mainly Special Forces leaders, both from the active and retired ranks, who comprehend the war at hand. Leaders who'd drop the silly charges against Col. West in a heartbeat so he could get on with winning his piece of this ugly war.

As for the "Perfumed Princes," send them home from both Iraq and Afghanistan, another guerrilla war we're losing, and let them play Political Correctness -- or perhaps the emerging Blame Game -- with the chicken hawks who got us in this mess in the first place.

[jizzmonkey]

You gotta love this guy! never afraid to speak his mind, just wish he'd stay off fox news. :D

[Royal]

Strange.

I agree with everything Hackworth writes there. Except for his comments about Col West, who should have the book thrown at him.

First and foremost, what the hell was he doing conducting an interrogation? That is not a CO's job. A high value prisoner should have been passed to a Field Interrogation Team for proper exploitation.

His tactics are also highly debatable - a good interrogator would not need to resort to such actions (and would probably have got a hell of a lot more 'product' in the long run).

The Laws of War are there for a reason (whether the enemy follows them is irrelevant).

a. They define a civilised society.

b. (& more importantly) they provide a measure of protection to our own PW's.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Yup that sounds about right. I guess the general's that are running the show are too worried about "Political Correctness" when trying to fight a war in a country that doesnt even have a word to describe "Political Correctness". Its time for the US army to stop bombing a bunch of empty house's and do something about the insurgents, sure it may not be pretty in the end but if it gets the job done im sure everyone (including Iraqi's) will be happier.

[96B]

There were threats on the Colonels life, and there were two female Counter Intelligence agents who were interrogating the man beforehand so its not like he was the only one there. His actions quite possibly saved the lives of American troops and IMO the man should be given a medal not a punishment. At the very least his career is over, and he had better get his pension for devoting 20 years of his life to his country. IMO, this is a result of some JAG puke trying to make a name for himself. And frankly I believe we should do whatever is necessary to save lives and promote the sucess of OIF as that is what matters most in the long run.

[jizzmonkey]

Strange.

I agree with everything Hackworth writes there. Except for his comments about Col West, who should have the book thrown at him.


PW's.

I have to disagree with you on this one, The guy used a pistol, threaten the iraqi and fired it in the air, after that the iraqi sang like a ****in cannary, and told them the location of an ambush line that was waiting for a 4th ID convoy, his actions did save lives.
For a more detailed article check out this weeks Army Times.

His actions might have been unorthodox, but this isnt a conventional war anymore, its time to get your hands dirty, I'm not saying to completly abolish the ROE, buuuuut the end justify the means in this case.

[Argyll]

Who made those threats?
The man is supposed to be a proffesional Soldier,and as a CO he should be setting an example of discipline,and integrity of the unit,instead he has brought shame on himself,his unit and his country,20 years loyal and distinct service down the pan for what?
Was he trained in interrogation techniques?He has subordinates who could easily have dealt with this,it sounds like,and I can sympathise here,that he was very frustrated,what CO does not feel the loss of men?Perhaps he had a lapse in concentration,but there are Codes and conducts and rules and conventions,that have to be applied in these situations,you fail to comply or break one of these rules,then it makes you no better than your enemy!!And that is what sets apart the differences,being professional,and disciplined.His actions may have saved lives,but he broke the rules and has to accept the consequences!!

[MarineSniper8541]

Royal, Argyll,...


You obviously have zero combat experience.

You don't know what you are talking about or you would understand that Field Int. guys are not always available to conduct interrogations. You would also understand that in the fluidity of battle, you need answers to certain questions....yesterday and not in a few hours after a HumInt team can get them to you.

Where did you get the idea that a CO's job is not to conduct an interrogation? A CO is responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do as well as the lives and welfare of his men. He knew what he was doing and he knew what needed to be done. He therefore took that burden upon himself knowing that the lives of his men meant more to him than having to ask for forgiveness at a later date.

The tactics that CO used are the same tactics that helped cause the Viet Cong to cease to become an effective fighting entity by 1968. There are US soldiers that are alive today and will be going home to their familes as a direct result of what that CO did. YOU could have been one of those soldiers, or someone else that you care about could have been one of those soldiers.

For you to say he should have the book thrown at him for it...well...you're just ignorant. I dare you to stand in front of one of the young children who still have a father because of his actions and say that to their face.

[Argyll]

I guess thats the difference between us Brits then?

Still I guess 2 tours of Duty in Northern Ireland and one in the Falklands,in the 1980's I guess doesn't count as combat experience!!!That along with my 8 years service all over the globe :(

The way POW's are handled is that they are shipped to the experts in the rear,where Intelligence Green Slime do their stuff,a line Battalion CO would never conduct such interrogation in my days,and I'm pretty sure that in Royals military experience will be more up to date!!

Now just answer this simple question did he break the USMCJ or not?
If he did then he has to accept that,also the fact he reported the incident himself shows that yes indeed he has great character,and he is an honest guy who was onlt trying to prevent his men from dying,that is commendable,but if every man failed to abide by these codes then you have a serious problem!!
2ndly It may well have been an effective method carried out in Vietnam,this is not Vietnam,and this is now 30 years later!!.The times and climes have changed ,there is a far greater role of accountability than there was then!!

[ST4]

Yes, Col. West firing a pistol in the air and ground is horrible interrogation. Why don't we take a look at Saddam and his men conducting interrogations.

People, sometimes we cannot always play by the rules.

[budanski]

I'd proudly serve under him if I were in the service.

[Argyll]

Yes correct ST4 ,but the Coalition is not Saddams regime,they are supposed to be proffesional and follow the codes and conducts!!.

Now I'm against throwing the book at the guy,but what he did was wrong,he knows that himself,that's why he volunteered himself,he's also a 20 year veteran,who throw it all away in a moment of frustration!!.

The discharge of a weapon unless in a combat situation is also against the Army Act(UK),and carries with it charges,it could be classed as reckless discharge of a weapon,when I served from 1980-88 every single round you had was accountable,lose one and you get charged ,simple as that!!
All ammunition issued on Ops was checked daily,and if you were diffy a round then you were placed on report!
I can speak from personal experience here,on my 1st TOD in NI I was the GPMG gunner,and I had a belt of 25 loaded ,but when i got tangled in a blackthorn hedge I lost 10 rounds,this happened at night with no NVG ,and it wasn't until the the patrol returned I noticed they were gone!
I was charged on the spot!We had to retrace the route,along with the sniffer dogs the next day,kuckily they were found,in the hedge,but these 10 rounds could've represented 10 KIA's if they were found by the wrong person,and that is a what my OC told me I was fined 2 weeks wages.
Things maybe different in the US Army /USMC,but if you're not accountable for your ammo and weapons then who knows what could be going on if these rules are broken!!

[Beowulf]

Yes, Col. West firing a pistol in the air and ground is horrible interrogation. Why don't we take a look at Saddam and his men conducting interrogations.

People, sometimes we cannot always play by the rules.

That is absolutely the wrong approach to treating POW's or PUC's or whatever the hell they're calling them now. Just because the other guy is doing it does not mean that the coalition should do it as well.

By assuming the moral high ground and treating prisoners with a little respect you will start to win people over, if you want a good example of atrocities being commited on both sides and not solving anything look at Chechnya.

Just because the other guys are playing dirty doesn't mean we can either. Whether the ends justify the means is arguable, but the ultimate end is a stable safe Iraq.

If the enemy knows they will be ferociuosly interrogated outside of the bounds of the laws of war do you think they will be likely to surrender?

What is more valuable to the coalition:
Either: Some information and an enemy that will be more wiling to fight to the death rather than surrender b/c they have heard stories of an american officer threatening to shoot prisoners

Or: an enemy more willing to surrender b/c they know they will be treated well. (don't think this ever happens? look at GW1)

I know there are many resistance fighters who are willing to fight to the death, but for every extremist there are five moderates, and it is there that our actions have the most impact.

All Best
-b

[jizzmonkey]

Army officer says he threatened to shoot Iraqi detainee
Wednesday, November 19, 2003 Posted: 5:51 PM EST (2251 GMT)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

TIKRIT, Iraq (AP) -- An Army officer fought back tears Wednesday as he acknowledged threatening to shoot an Iraqi detainee to extract information about a planned attack, saying that to protect his troops, he would "go to hell with a gasoline can in my hand."

Lt. Col. Allen B. West made the statement on the second day of a U.S. military pretrial hearing on accusations that he threatened Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi by firing his gun near the man. West is the most senior officer of the 4th Infantry Division to face such a proceeding.

In addition to firing his pistol near Hamoodi, West also is accused of punching him during the August 20 interrogation in Taji, according to Lt. Col. Jimmy Davis, who presided at the hearing at a U.S. base in Tikrit.

The case is being heard amid increasing criticism by human rights groups about the methods employed by American forces to quell resistance to the occupation of Iraq.

The hearing, which is aimed at determining whether West should face court-martial, was declared closed late Wednesday by Davis, who is expected to issue a ruling in a few days.

West, a decorated officer, was relieved of command of the 2nd Battalion, 20th Field Artillery Regiment.

West, 42, of Atlanta, testified he had received information that Hamoodi, an Iraqi policeman, was allegedly involved in a plot to attack him and his troops. After being arrested, Hamoodi was interrogated but insisted he was not aware of the planned attack.

West said he decided to question the prisoner himself, bringing a number of soldiers with him to the place where Hamoodi was being questioned. The soldiers punched the detainee to force him to talk.

When Hamoodi refused to give any information, West said he led him out of the detention facility to a weapons' cleaning area and asked him to confess, suggesting he would shoot him if he did not talk by the count of five. West said he fired a warning shot and later fired a second shot into the sand near Hamoodi, who still professed his innocence.

West said he only wanted to force the detainee to confess and added that when he saw him visibly shaken, he asked that the prisoner be helped.

"I felt that there was a threat to my soldiers," West said.

"I know that the method that I used was not the right method," West said, adding he was ready to face the consequences of his action.

"To protect my soldiers, I'll go to hell with a gasoline can in my hand," he said, holding back tears as his quavering voice resonated across the silence of the room filled with soldiers.

After confronting the detainee, West left and informed his commander that he had threatened a prisoner with his gun. He said he did not tell his commander that his soldiers hit the detainee.

"I love the Army. I love my soldiers. ... I knew it was over," he said.

Prosecutor Capt. Magdalena Przytulska said West should be tried, saying his actions implied that "we're no better than the enemy we're fighting."

West's lawyer, Neal Puckett, recommended that the charges against his client be dismissed.

During breaks in the hearing, sympathetic soldiers approached and comforted West. One group asked that their picture be taken with him. A female soldier approached West and hugged him outside the hearing room.

A preliminary investigation alleged that West's actions were in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. West remained in Iraq after the incident and was assigned to other duties in the division, officials said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[jizzmonkey]

Now this is complete horse ****, notice how the article didnt even explain that the iraqi eventually did confess and an ambush was averted, who knows how many lives COL West saved, but the mainstreem media wont portray the act as nescessary in conflict where you cant look at things in black and white, there is a grey area.
I'd like to say it isnt necessary, but I'm a realist, and to win this war I think we have to all be realistic.
Its one thing to sit here behind a computer and discuss it on a forum, Its entirely different to be on the line playing the game.

I wish ColWest luck, and I support his actions.

[MarineSniper8541]

Argyll,

How can you say the times and climes have changed when guerilla warfare has not? Just because it's 30 years later does not mean guerilla warfare has taken on some kind of new politically correct policy........

You claim you did time in Northern Ireland and you can make a statement like that? It would seem that if you did time there and the time you spent there was actually in combat....that you would have a better idea of what guerilla warfare is all about. Don't confuse time deployed to a hostile environment with combat experience, that includes the odd isolated firefight incident. Any service member can be deployed to a hostile theater, that does not guarantee they will have experienced combat.

I find extreme irony in the fact that you can take that type of stance and have a signature at the bottom of your posts reading this:

War is not about who's right ,War is about who's left!!
What's with you man?

Beowulf,


By assuming the moral high ground and treating prisoners with a little respect you will start to win people over, if you want a good example of atrocities being commited on both sides and not solving anything look at Chechnya.

Just because the other guys are playing dirty doesn't mean we can either.

Once again, I'd like to see you stand in front of the wifes and children of the men that man saved and tell them that. Men are dying as a result of ambush every day in Iraq. Men with lives and futures and families at home waiting for their return. How dare you speak as a third party against the actions of the men who are actually on the ground living minute-by-minute hoping that there is not a bomb planted beneath that next bush they are about to drive by. You are not there, you dont know what it is like. You also obviously have never been in an environment like that or you would not be so quick to be a critic.

The guy fired shots in the air and next to a prisoner. He did not shove bamboo under his toenails. He did not break his legs with a board, he did not flay his skin with a knife. He just scared the guy. That is very far from being viscious.

You third party liberalist critics make me sick. You think you have the right to judge and you dont even speak from experience.

[hahaha]

Maybe he got sick and tired of seeing his countrymen get wasted and he felt hopeless by not being able to do anything about it. Sometimes the rules need to be bent to get results and he did get results.

I understand the reasons why they are going after him, but don't think their right.

Question regarding POW's : if the enemy is deceased, and the body was used to demostrate what would happen to the 'living' POW's, would the soldier in question still be up on charges ?

In Australia this is apparent in the armed forces; in East Timor there was a case of SASR kicking a couple of militia corpses, charges were laid but surprisingly there were no witnesses to testify against the SASR, the men in question had the charges dropped.

Are other countries armed forces the same ?

[Argyll]

Marine Sniper,
I am not claiming mate,I'm telling you,I've told you about my experiences.and my TOD's perhaps you can do the same?As it would seem you're almost calling me a liar!!?
As for your accustations and insinuations regarding Beowulf,you're so far off the Mark mate...............he's ex PsyOps and was involved in OEF!!!
You also say you're sick of our liberal leftist views,that's cack mate,pre cack,all I'm saying is that this guy broke the Rules!!!And he has to face up to that,I also never said he should be hung out to dry!His actions were commendable but WRONG!!!
You rant there but you never answered the question,and it was a simple answer.............did he or did he not break USMCJ?
My signature incase you don't understand is a joke Chinese proverb,taken from a website printout,I thought it was pretty funny!!

[Beowulf]

...
Beowulf,


By assuming the moral high ground and treating prisoners with a little respect you will start to win people over, if you want a good example of atrocities being commited on both sides and not solving anything look at Chechnya.

Just because the other guys are playing dirty doesn't mean we can either.

Once again, I'd like to see you stand in front of the wifes and children of the men that man saved and tell them that. Men are dying as a result of ambush every day in Iraq. Men with lives and futures and families at home waiting for their return. How dare you speak as a third party against the actions of the men who are actually on the ground living minute-by-minute hoping that there is not a bomb planted beneath that next bush they are about to drive by. You are not there, you dont know what it is like. You also obviously have never been in an environment like that or you would not be so quick to be a critic.

First, you are wrong about me. Secondly, I said what i did b/c I wanted people to take a step back and look at the big picture...and to try and understand why the rules are what they are.

The guy fired shots in the air and next to a prisoner. He did not shove bamboo under his toenails. He did not break his legs with a board, he did not flay his skin with a knife. He just scared the guy. That is very far from being viscious.
It's still against the UCMJ. That's the point I was trying to make. Anyone that knows me knows I 'm the first to break "big Army's" rules in order to get results. I hate working with conventional units. In my post I neither applauded nor condemned the actions of Lt. Col. West. I haven't decided whether or not I agree with his actions. I did however want to temper the point of view that "we should do whatever is necessary to get information etc. etc." with some reasons why US troops have laws concerning POW's

You third party liberalist critics make me sick. You think you have the right to judge and you dont even speak from experience.

Once again Marine, do you know me? Have you seen my DD214? No you haven't. Don't assume that b/c we don't hold the same point of view that I'm a "third party liberalist critic"

[martinexsquaddie]

It the big aim is to build a democratic Stable Iraq with a respect for law and order it means having a respect for the law. Even when faced with scumbags. Personally the guy went to far and he knows it thats why he reported it.
If we get out the big book of amnesty international torture techniques
( A wonderful way to annoy hippys I always read amnesty reports it gives me handy hints on techniques to try :lol:) at the first time of trouble what sort of message are we sending the coalition are just as bad as the regimne they replaced. Down south where my brother is most bomb attacks are being thrawted beacuse the locals are informing on the attackers.

[NcDeuce]

PERSEC

[Beowulf]

It the big aim is to build a democratic Stable Iraq with a respect for law and order it means having a respect for the law. Even when faced with scumbags. Personally the guy went to far and he knows it thats why he reported it.
If we get out the big book of amnesty international torture techniques
( A wonderful way to annoy hippys I always read amnesty reports it gives me handy hints on techniques to try :lol:) at the first time of trouble what sort of message are we sending the coalition are just as bad as the regimne they replaced. Down south where my brother is most bomb attacks are being thrawted beacuse the locals are informing on the attackers.

hear hear, this is how it's supposed to work.
-b

[Roger Rabbit]

Any chance you could give us a brief description of what is the normal week like in Southern Iraq?

[California Joe]

Nothing much to add to this. Beowulf and Argyll got it covered. Even those of you defending his actions believe it was done out of frustration and desperation to keep his men from harm. The intent is extremely laudable and I'm sure his men see it that way. He clearly realizes that he screwed the pooch on this one though. Rationalizing it by comparing it to Saddam's methods is spurious at best. We are better than that. We must always take the high ground in this conflict. It is absolutely imperative.

[budanski]

Who are you and what have you done to our friend, California Joe?

[California Joe]

Sorry, it was the whole near death heart thing. I'll be back to normal soon. ;)

[martinexsquaddie]

Brief description of life in Southern iraq as seen by Gate guard
day on day off
sounds of gunfire at night mostly local on local
lots of special force types driveing Gucci 4X4 with tinted windows :lol:
last suicide bomb own goal remains Fitted in a sand bag recognised a heel
Most exciting Drama two men and a woman caught shagging in a guard tower :P
Special forces types are not suppoused to be stopped going out of camp my Brother did and they were just about to come out with the immortal don't you know who we are :) when a speedy warrior came the other way
40tons of armour has right of way. regardless how high speed your unit is .
Food good as long as you like flies with everything main danger tedium
locals know two phrases "**** you" and "jiggy jiggy donkey"? often used while trying to blagg food water anything.
its hot but they have air conditioned rooms to stay in Just tedious home at the end of november for two weeks then back until april then probably going to hand his kit in if the rumour is there expected to go back in 18months time :(