extraordinary rendition

[He219]

Italy Investigates Alleged CIA Abduction (http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=ME&showDate=28-Mar-2005&segNum=14&NPRMediaPref=WM&getAd=1)

NPR Morning Edition, March 28, 2005 · Milan authorities investigate whether CIA agents broke Italian law in an act of "extraordinary rendition." The term refers to U.S. agents abducting suspected terrorists abroad and transporting them to third countries, sometimes to be tortured. The case centers on the alleged abduction of an Egyptian-born man near his home in Italy.

More Here (http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=ME&showDate=28-Mar-2005&segNum=14&NPRMediaPref=WM&getAd=1) ...


Europe worries terrorist being snatched (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=51958)
By CRAIG WHITLOCK
Los Angeles Times

MILAN, Italy - A radical Egyptian cleric known as Abu Omar was walking to a Milan mosque for noon prayers in February 2003 when he was grabbed on the sidewalk by two men, sprayed in the face with chemicals and stuffed into a van. He hasn't been seen since.

Milan investigators, however, appear to be close to identifying his kidnappers. Last month, officials showed up at Aviano Air Base in northern Italy and demanded records of any American planes that had flown into or out of the joint U.S.-Italian military installation around the time of the abduction. They also asked for logs of vehicles that had entered the base.

Italian authorities suspect the Egyptian was the target of a CIA-sponsored operation known as rendition, in which terrorism suspects are forcibly taken for interrogation to countries where torture is practiced.

More Here (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=51958) ...



Boston Red Sox's Gulfstream Involved? (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11186305.htm)

Jet's travels cloaked in mystery

BY JOHN CREWDSON AND TOM HUNDLEY

Chicago Tribune

(KRT) - Last June, the Boston Red Sox chartered an executive jet to help their manager make a quick visit home in the midst of the team's championship season.

But what was the very same Gulfstream - owned by one of the Red Sox's partners, but presumably without the team's logo on its fuselage - doing in Cairo on Feb. 18, 2003?

Perhaps by coincidence, Feb. 18, 2003, was the day an Islamic preacher known as Abu Omar, who had been abducted in Italy the previous day and forced aboard a small plane, also arrived at the Cairo airport.

Omar, whose given name is Osama Nasr Mostafa Hassan, was imprisoned by the Egyptians and, he claims, brutally tortured. The public prosecutor in Milan, Armando Spataro, who is investigating Omar's apparent kidnapping, expects to file charges within a few days, according to an Italian official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Spataro made headlines last month when, attempting to identify the plane that transported Omar from Italy to Egypt, he served a warrant on the Italian commander of the air base at Aviano, Italy, which is home to the U.S. Air Force's 31st Fighter Wing.

More Here (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11186305.htm) ...



For Discussion:

"Rendition" is the American practice of sending prisoners to other countries where the same limits on treatment don't apply. Is it a way of condoning torture? Does rendition require high-level approval? Will CIA agents be prosecuted for violating the law?



WARNING: If this turns into a flame war, I will move this thread to the Invite Section only. Thank you.

[Knutsen]

In this kind of war (war on terrorism) it's almost impossible to achieve your goals following the law completely. There's a grey zone in which a country's security and intel agencies have to break the law. The thing is:
is this grey zone used to truly defend a country's interest or is it used for anything else (as He mentioned, torture)?
My opinion is that such methods, being "legitimate" for some targets at the same time are extremelly dangerous for several reasons:

a) We have to be very sure of who is our target. In Spain we have experience with similar situations in which illegal government sponsored groups abducted innocent civilans who were mistaken by terrorists.

b) We have to be careful with WHERE we do it. I mean, if these kind of actions take place inside our country (in this particular case the US) i don't see anything wrong with it, but if they take place in a third country (like in this case) and these actions contradict the third country's laws, then i think it should be prosecuted. After all, these are the kind of risks intel agencies have to take.
I guess there's another way, which is doing these kind of things with the knowledge and approval of the third country.


Does rendition require high-level approval?

But, what kind of high-level approval? What happened here in spain ended with 2 ministers in prison cause everything was revealed.

This is too complicated, it would be great if we could hear the opinion of an expert in laws or **wish mode on** a person involved in an intel agency **wish mode off**.


***Note, when i say WE in my post i'm referring to the security agencies in any western country***

[2Sheds_Jackson]

This looks more to me like a prosecutor trying to make a name for himself. It's a classic fishing expedition. The "evidence" is quite vaporous - who ID'd the CIA agents, for example? Anybody? Or was it just a guess? So he shows up at Aviano with a film crew, and a heapin' helpin' of indignation...it's sure to do wonders for his career.

If I were conducting ops like this, I certainly wouldn't be transporting people on aircraft with authentic tail numbers, and would probably "disappear" anybody that I abducted...dead men tell no tales, as they say. How could you possibly release somebody you'd illegally abducted and tortured? It makes no sense.

As far as the "legality" of all this - it's a bit of an oxymoron, no? I mean - the purpose of having a CIA or some such agency is to conduct shady ops. in the first place. To then expect them to play by the rules, to essentially act as if they were just another law enforcement agency is a bit silly. The stakes are pretty high though - and it would suck to be caught with one's hand in the cookie jar.

Morally speaking, abducting people, then sending them to be tortured by others is the same as doing it yourself. But legally speaking, it's a bit more of a gray area...since the torturers would no doubt deny the practice. So it gives the operation some much needed plausible deniability when it comes to the US being involved in torture. Just my .02.

[Apogee]

So the Red Sox are kidnapping people in a desperate attempt to hold on to their title?


just kidding. Interesting read.

[He219]

It is not a familiar word to most Americans, but it's been US policy since President Ronald Reagan approved it in 1986. "Rendition" is the practice of sending suspected terrorists to other countries with reputations for treating prisoners in ways that are illegal in the United States. When it comes to American laws against torture, CIA Director Porter Goss says his agency is "erring on the side of caution," though he won't deny there might have been past abuses of suspects in the so-called War on Terror. Goss says those countries promise not to torture, but prisoners who have been "rendered" tell a different story. We explore the nature of the claims and what is allowable under American law with journalists, experts in constitutional law and a veteran CIA expert in counter-terrorism.
Listen (http://kcrw.com/cgi-bin/ram_wrap.cgi?/tp/tp050328Rendition_and_Interr) (NPR 'To the Point')

[hughdotoh]

Adolf Eichmann comes to mind.

[Argyll]

I have a problem with other countries coming into mine to conduct such Ops without jurasdiction,what happens if they accidently kill,during apprehension,of a suspect who turned out to be the wrong man?

Should these agents be free from prosecution?........hell no NOBODY is above the Law and that includes The President of the United States.

If these people are such a threat then it should be at the very least a combined Security services Operation.............everyone should be accountable for their actions..........everyone!!

See this is where dodgy Intelligence springs to mind,the CIA and all of the Western Intelligence couldn't get their act together and produce the so called WMD the Iraqi's allegedly had,so what makes them so sure they'd be going after legit targets for such Operations mentioned

[oldsoak]

- is it a CIA operation or possibly one carried out by Egyptian secret service ?

- Why was he not extradited ? Is it because formenting unrest in a country that you have political and diplomatic relations with is allowable ? So we can forment trouble, unrest, riots, death etc anywhere in the globe so long as it isnt where we are ? Sounds wonderful. Freedom of concience takes on a whole new meaning.

I'd go with Argyll. I dont like the idea that someone can cause trouble back home and get away with it because their hometown police arent nice guys.

[DPGLAW]

What a shame. Personally, I am glad this terrorist was taken by our intelligence service for itnerrogation and hopefully, some form of "punishment" for his crimes as a terrorist and supporter. Furthermore, it is a good thing that he ahs not been seen since his capture and hopefully he will never be seen again. Thats jsut one less terrorist for the world to worry about and it is not like anyone of any human value will miss him....

I just cant see why anyone would care enough about him, other than his terrorist associates, would want to even waste the time to look for him, but I guess thats europe for ya.....lol

[DPGLAW]

I have a problem with other countries coming into mine to conduct such Ops without jurasdiction,what happens if they accidently kill,during apprehension,of a suspect who turned out to be the wrong man?


I would say that if an innocent person were accidentally killed, it would be a tragic accident, but jsut that, an accident. On top of that, this is the War on Terror, so I would even goas far as to say that although if an innocent person were killed it would be a tragic accident, this is a war on terror, so they are collateral damage, as the kilitary would call it.

[moughoun]

I have a problem with other countries coming into mine to conduct such Ops without jurasdiction,what happens if they accidently kill,during apprehension,of a suspect who turned out to be the wrong man?


I would say that if an innocent person were accidentally killed, it would be a tragic accident, but jsut that, an accident. On top of that, this is the War on Terror, so I would even goas far as to say that although if an innocent person were killed it would be a tragic accident, this is a war on terror, so they are collateral damage, as the kilitary would call it.

yeah, you are surely G2 quality :lol:

[He219]

The real question is what makes it 'extraordinary' rendition?
;)


Who decides the fate of persons deemed to be a Terrorist; what about Due Process?
My visit to Manzinar Concentration Camp early Easter Sunday made me think hard about the reprecussions ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/todayspics/manzanar.jpg

[Laworkerbee]

Where is that 219?

California desert somewhere, I'd be interested in seeing the place as long as the drive isnt to bad

[He219]

Just 10 minutes north of Lone Pine (Mount Whitney) on route to Bishop.

They did a splendid job with the interpretive center; it even address the War on Terror/Patriot Act.


Edit: Removed pic's ..

[Argyll]

What a shame. Personally, I am glad this terrorist was taken by our intelligence service for itnerrogation and hopefully, some form of "punishment" for his crimes as a terrorist and supporter. Furthermore, it is a good thing that he ahs not been seen since his capture and hopefully he will never be seen again. Thats jsut one less terrorist for the world to worry about and it is not like anyone of any human value will miss him....

I just cant see why anyone would care enough about him, other than his terrorist associates, would want to even waste the time to look for him, but I guess thats europe for ya.....lol


How can it be an accident when the act is premeditated?
You know what scares me is that some of you think that every single Muslim in the world is a Terrorist........it's a fokin pity you didn't act so tough during the PIRA's reign of terror in the UK and Europe,hell you even gave these POS sanctuary.......and here you are acting holier than though and acting like you're the be all and end all when it comes to World Terrorism.........unless he's admitted to taking part in terrorist activities,and vows to carry out terrorist activities then he's an activist,perpetrating these activities makes one a terrorist,not just CIA hearsay!!

As for collateral damage,yeah right so these goons can abduct innocent people(it happens),tell me if you'r so clued up on the war against Terror how come there have been hardly any charges laid against those in custody in Gitmo?...........all it's going to do is recruit more fundamentalist,and the war on terror will never be won,waht's been acomplished so far?.............AQ is still operating globally,Bin Laden and Mullah Omar are still at large,so's Zarqawi.........instead Billions have been spent on detaining hundreds in Gitmo,Billions have been spent in Afghanistan and Iraq,if not Trillions..........but sod all's been acomplished for the expenditure......and the war on terror will never be won in my lifetime........it took 30 years to end it in NI.........so how could it possibly take less on a global scale?