UK POLICE TACTICAL / ARMED SQUADS EQUIPMENT

[FOX 1]

All I know about UK POLICE TACTICAL / ARMED SQUADS equipment is that they have 0.38's, Remington 870's, Sniper Rifles in the 80's. Then in the early 90's, they started to have new guns like GLOCKS, and H&K MP5'S. And from early on this decade (2001) some of them have G36'S series and WALTER P99'S. Here is what my reserach findings

London Metropolitian Police SO19: GLOCKS. MP5'S, Remington 870's, Accuarcy L96's, Sig SSG2000.

Manchester Police: GLOCKS. MP5'S, Remington 870's, Accuarcy L96's.

Nottingham Police: Walter P99'S and MP5'S

Northern Scotland Police: GLOCKS, H&K MP5'S

Devon & Cornwall Police: GLOCKS

If anyone have info, I hope you can share with me and also corrcet my info if you think I am wrong.

[PrincessRAR]

Mate, I dont think you can have an all caps title, just putting it nicely before some other not so patient and full-time MP computer geeks get on and blow you....

[Zorro C9]

NO ALL CAPS TITLES!

j/k ;)

In The Good Guys Wear Black, SO19 was using the HK marksman rifle...I forget the name, similer to the PSG1 I beleive.

There's some cool pics in that book, if you can get it.

[Gringo]

NO ALL CAPS TITLES!

j/k ;)

In The Good Guys Wear Black, SO19 was using the HK marksman rifle...I forget the name, similer to the PSG1 I beleive.

There's some cool pics in that book, if you can get it.

it was the HK33/SG1.

http://www.hkpro.com/33sg1.htm

[Zorro C9]

That's the one. Cheers for that!

[martinexsquaddie]

sussex police use carbine mp5s have a couple of silenced mp5s as well although there not exactly sure why :roll:
As one copper said to me "if we really needed to take out someone silently before an assualt the **** would have hit the fan so much the SAS would be involved and we'd be relegated to team making duty :lol: "
which suits me fine.
by the way the longest shot taken by a british policeman in the line of duty is 75metres :(

[oldsoak]

sussex police use carbine mp5s have a couple of silenced mp5s as well although there not exactly sure why :roll:
As one copper said to me "if we really needed to take out someone silently before an assualt the **** would have hit the fan so much the SAS would be involved and we'd be relegated to team making duty :lol: "
which suits me fine.
by the way the longest shot taken by a british policeman in the line of duty is 75metres :(

....I heard the bit about the silenced version as well. I was given the excuse of not frightening the neighbours with gun shots or for use when there was more than one naked bloke waving his weapon - oops sorry, mustnt mention jimmy ashley .... :roll:

[FozzieBear]

basically... you can have whatever you want if your an armed response unit (aslong as it complies with home office explosives regulations and stuff) as long as your chief (officer in command) ok's it, so they could basically have machine guns if they wanted, and also the cambridge armed response unit use steyr aug's with rails instead of built in sights.

[Swedish Chef]

Fox 1, Try this old thread (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5563&highlight=so19) for more info and pics.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Several UK Police forces have now adopted the H&K G36 - amongst these are Kent, Bedfordshire and Lancashire - I have also seen G36s in use in Central London.

There are some forces who use weapons outside of the usual issue ones (Glock, MP5 etc.) for example Bedforshire who issue S&W Auto pistols, and Avon who use the Steyr AUG in both 5.56mm & 9mm.

The Ministry of Defence Police have just announced adoptino of the H&K MP7 in 4.6x30mm, MoD-Plod are also the only UK police unit who use the L85A1/2 (SA80).

[martinexsquaddie]

sussex police
tough on scoussers tough on the causes of scoussers rofl

[leonpro]

LONDON POLICE WITH G36K

http://www.hkpro.com/action10londong36clg.jpg

[-Max2-]

leonpro wrote:

LONDON POLICE WITH G36K

G36C, not K. ;)

If i remember correctly, they are restricted to semi-auto fire only...

[DeltaWhisky58]

LONDON POLICE WITH G36K

http://www.hkpro.com/action10londong36clg.jpg

These are not London police - they are in fact Bedforshire police on duty at Luton Airport. Bedfordshire were the first UK Police Force to adopt the H&K G36C. Note however that these have the dual sighting system of the H&K German-military issue models.

Note also the non-std. Smith & Wesson pistols.

[Lamancha]

>>>>
sussex police use carbine mp5s have a couple of silenced mp5s as well although there not exactly sure why
<<<<

The aforementioned 'The Good Guys Wear Black', which is well worth reading, suggests that the Met originally used silenced weapons in the 1970s as a means of obscuring the fact that the police were armed with submachineguns - the media would have had a field day, with stories of trigger-happy "Dirty Harry" types on the streets of Surbiton, and the police themselves are traditionally squeamish about guns, not least because they frequently get sued and/or prosecuted for using them.

And as one of the other people mentions above, a silenced firearm is quiet! If the police are going to break into my next-door-neighbour's house and shoot him and his dog, I'd prefer it if they did so quietly.

The nastiest element of SO19's arsenal, according to the pictures in the book, are actually the various hammers, spikes, crowbars and breaching tools they carry with them; the guns look relatively tame.

[Aussie E]

These guys are pretty heavily armed for a country with so few firearms in it.

A few question that I would like answered by qualified members:

Are they expecting a serious terriorist event in the near future?
What sort of extra training do the officers that carry all this firepower go through?
Are these weapons semi-auto only or do they have burst/full-auto weapons?
What is SO19?

Thanks,
Aussie E

[Hydro]

These guys are pretty heavily armed for a country with so few firearms in it.

A few question that I would like answered by qualified members:

Are they expecting a serious terriorist event in the near future?
What sort of extra training do the officers that carry all this firepower go through?
Are these weapons semi-auto only or do they have burst/full-auto weapons?
What is SO19?

Thanks,
Aussie E

The Government say sooner or later, we'll be hit by terrorists. Officers need to have a certain number of years under their belt before they can apply for firearms duty.

Counties have (generally) two types of firearms officer - AFO, and SFO. AFO's are Authorised Firearms Officers, and these officers crew the Armed Response Units, who attend to "ordinary" crimes where firearms are involved, and look no different to other Officers other than the weaponry. They generally carry pistols and semi-automatic SMG's.
SFO's are Specialist Firearms Officers, and they can be members of the counties Tactical Firearms Units, the all black ninja suited guys. They have access to more exotic weaponry, like (in the instance of Kent County Constabulary when my father was a TFU member) MP5K's, MP5SD's (quite rare, these ones), Remington 870 cut down shotguns and HK53's. They indeed are authorised on selective fire weapons. (Don't take this all as gospel mind you, I'm just telling what I know, it may or may not be 100% correct ;))

SO19 is the London Metropolitian Police heavy guys, the anti-terrorist boys. Every county has their equivalent.

[Aussie E]

Thanks for the info!
Here in the US of A the generally keep the heavy hardware hidden in the trunk ("boot" for you foreigners) of their vehicles. It seems strange seeing police walk around with this kind of firepower on a daily basis. During times of major crimes/situations (D.C. sniper, Hollywood bank robbery, etc.) they bring out the canons over here, but ut's not a 24/7 type of thing.

[Hydro]

Thanks for the info!
Here in the US of A the generally keep the heavy hardware hidden in the trunk ("boot" for you foreigners) of their vehicles. It seems strange seeing police walk around with this kind of firepower on a daily basis. During times of major crimes/situations (D.C. sniper, Hollywood bank robbery, etc.) they bring out the canons over here, but ut's not a 24/7 type of thing.

You'll only see SMG's and rifles carried openly in high risk areas where a high profile is advantageous. You'll see officers carrying G36C's in Heathrow airport and on river patrol boats on the Thames in London. MP5 armed officers are a common sight in London, around the very high risk targets. Get away from the airports and London, and they're very low profile. For regular armed officers in regular counties, they usually carry their sidearms with the SMG's (sorry, "Carbines", people don't like the words Sub-Machine Gun) in the back of the vehicle.

I know my local County Tac Units carried a huge briefcase per two man patrol in the Range Rover with two MP5A5's, 2 SIG P228's, and a Remington cut down 870 "Hatton" shotgun as the contents. Interesting viewing when you're 12 and dad pops in while on duty...a normal British living room just looks weird with all that firepower in its case on the floor.

[martinexsquaddie]

99% people shoot better with a carbine than with a pistol thats why the police often use semi automatic mp5 carbines.
also and mp5 looks way more scary than a pistol. especially when you end up having sevral pointed at you :(

[Gringo]

The police I saw down London when I visited in the summer were armed with MP5s and Glocks. I'm not sure which unit these guys were, but they were guarding Westminster Abbey and Downing Street.

[FozzieBear]

LONDON POLICE WITH G36K

http://www.hkpro.com/action10londong36clg.jpg

These are not London police - they are in fact Bedforshire police on duty at Luton Airport. Bedfordshire were the first UK Police Force to adopt the H&K G36C. Note however that these have the dual sighting system of the H&K German-military issue models.

Note also the non-std. Smith & Wesson pistols. IIRC theres london officers with g36's who gaurd airport terminals and some key locations around london (most use mp5's though) and the g36's are limited to 5 rounds in a mag too

[Gringo]

LONDON POLICE WITH G36K

http://www.hkpro.com/action10londong36clg.jpg

These are not London police - they are in fact Bedforshire police on duty at Luton Airport. Bedfordshire were the first UK Police Force to adopt the H&K G36C. Note however that these have the dual sighting system of the H&K German-military issue models.

Note also the non-std. Smith & Wesson pistols. IIRC theres london officers with g36's who gaurd airport terminals and some key locations around london (most use mp5's though) and the g36's are limited to 5 rounds in a mag too

I thought it was 15 rounds?

EDIT: Btw I've dug up some pics I had on my hard drive of plod armed with G36Ks with the dual optics scope

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/7374837.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/7374833.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/7374817.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/51082144.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/51082074.jpg

can anyone make out what pistols they've got in their holsters?

[king_nothing100]

They've got MP5's up here, although I did see a few G36K's when the Labour meeting was being held in Gateshead, about 300+ police out on that day.

Do you still need two years standard police service before you can put in for specialist fields like Armed, ARU etc.?

[Gringo]

They've got MP5's up here, although I did see a few G36K's when the Labour meeting was being held in Gateshead, about 300+ police out on that day.

Do you still need two years standard police service before you can put in for specialist fields like Armed, ARU etc.?

think so, though it might vary from force to force. I'll have to ask my lecturer, he might know. Although his son, who joined the Police about 3 years ago, has applied for ARU, so it could be.

[joe mama]

Limits of 5 or 15 rounds to a magazine? Is this true?
If so, are you f'ing kidding me, you don't even trust the armed police to have more rounds then that?

So it's not bad enough that you don't trust law abiding citizens with guns, and expect the King Arthur and his Knights to protect you (do you think of yourself as untrustworthy peasants who can't handle guns?) from evil, but you don't even trust the knights that you trust (barely) to be armed to not be too armed?

I hope the limits aren't real, and whether they are or not, I hope no officers ever end up dead because they confronted armed criminals or terrorists who don't play by your rules.

[Zorro C9]

Limits of 5 or 15 rounds to a magazine? Is this true?
If so, are you f'ing kidding me, you don't even trust the armed police to have more rounds then that?

So it's not bad enough that you don't trust law abiding citizens with guns, and expect the King Arthur and his Knights to protect you (do you think of yourself as untrustworthy peasants who can't handle guns?) from evil, but you don't even trust the knights that you trust (barely) to be armed to not be too armed?

I hope the limits aren't real, and whether they are or not, I hope no officers ever end up dead because they confronted armed criminals or terrorists who don't play by your rules.

Hey mate, take your holier than thou attitude out the door thanks. Not every country needs M60s for the Police.

[coded121]

joe mama there is a simple reason behind theses restrictions - there is no need for officers to carry many rounds, in london ARV's have 3 officers per car. Now if you take into account the fact that i cant remember the last time the plod had to take a criminal down, just the sight of the weapons will cause the thugs/druggies to **** themselves. Some information for you lot (i have a mate applying for SO19 training so this is all from him) in london ARV's 2 officers carry mp5 carbines and all 3 carry glocks. My mate said those carrying the G36's wre likey to be the DPG who get all sorts of fun gear and red old bill cars. In addition to the ARV's and SFO's SO19 also have SO19 dog units and Legion patrols (anti terrorist patrols i think he said) to add to the armed capabilty. Also to appy for SO19 you must have completed 2 years probabtion but the reality is they wont look at you that early unless your supercop or ex military. All this is only about London so i have idea how much of it applies to other forces round the country.

[FozzieBear]

joe mama there is a simple reason behind theses restrictions - there is no need for officers to carry many rounds, in london ARV's have 3 officers per car. Now if you take into account the fact that i cant remember the last time the plod had to take a criminal down, just the sight of the weapons will cause the thugs/druggies to **** themselves. Some information for you lot (i have a mate applying for SO19 training so this is all from him) in london ARV's 2 officers carry mp5 carbines and all 3 carry glocks. My mate said those carrying the G36's wre likey to be the DPG who get all sorts of fun gear and red old bill cars. In addition to the ARV's and SFO's SO19 also have SO19 dog units and Legion patrols (anti terrorist patrols i think he said) to add to the armed capabilty. Also to appy for SO19 you must have completed 2 years probabtion but the reality is they wont look at you that early unless your supercop or ex military. All this is only about London so i have idea how much of it applies to other forces round the country. plus they have to take regular marksmanship tests if i remember.

[von_Moo142]

If so, are you f'ing kidding me, you don't even trust the armed police to have more rounds then that?

The restrictions are imposed by the police forces themselves, IIRC.

As pointed out already, this probably isn't the best thread for your trolling.

[joe mama]

Hey mate, take your holier than thou attitude out the door thanks. Not every country needs M60s for the Police.

Funny I don't remember saying the police need M60's. I'm just curious why the people who are trusted to have guns aren't trusted with full capacity magazines for those guns, IF these limits are true. If you can't trust one of these officers with 16 rounds in a magazine, how can you trust them with 15? (Again, IF that limit is true.)

[joe mama]

joe mama there is a simple reason behind theses restrictions - there is no need for officers to carry many rounds, in london ARV's have 3 officers per car. Now if you take into account the fact that i cant remember the last time the plod had to take a criminal down, just the sight of the weapons will cause the thugs/druggies to **** themselves.

No need? Easy for you to say, you're not one of the armed officers that might respond to a terrorist or criminal incident where the bad guys don't just **** themselves because they see cops with guns. I'm not talking about having them carry thousands of rounds, I'm talking about having them carry a reasonable amount that might save their lives and the lives of the people they protect if they encounter the worst kind of bad guys.

If you trust the police to be armed, and you arm them with weapons that have a certain capacity, how does it make any sense to limit what they carry below that capacity?

[joe mama]

If so, are you f'ing kidding me, you don't even trust the armed police to have more rounds then that?

The restrictions are imposed by the police forces themselves, IIRC.

As pointed out already, this probably isn't the best thread for your trolling.

Nice way of avoiding the issue I'm trying to raise: WHY would you limit what they carry?
Who cares where the limit comes from. And in case it isn't already obvious, I'm NOT saying they should have barrels of ammunition, I'm talking about carrying what the weapons are designed to handle. If you're going to carry a magazine with 15 rounds for your rifle, it's not going to require any significantly increased effort to have a 30 round magazine (for sake of argument, I'm assuming they carry rifles that take standard 30 round magazines).
I'm not arguing that they should carry portable nuclear devices or flame throwers, I'm wondering why you would arm someone and then limit the usefulness of the weapon you arm them with.

[von_Moo142]

I'm wondering why you would arm someone and then limit the usefulness of the weapon you arm them with.

CX20 would be the person to ask, but he's not been around for ages. When this practice occurs though, it's becuase the constabulary in question chooses to do so. It may well be for a politically motivated reason, or for some percieved practical benefit.

In any case, both you and I know that mistrust doesn't really enter into it: If the officers aren't to be trusted with full magazines then the aren't to be trusted with firearms at all.

[Gringo]

I've got a mate who was in SO19 I could ask. If you really want me to... :roll:

[king_nothing100]

If they need 30 rounds in their magazine to hit a target then I doubt they would be suitable for armed duty. 15 rounds are fine, they don't spray bullets all around the place, they are taught such basic skills as aiming and fire discipline.

[joe mama]

If they need 30 rounds in their magazine to hit a target then I doubt they would be suitable for armed duty. 15 rounds are fine, they don't spray bullets all around the place, they are taught such basic skills as aiming and fire discipline.

If they don't spray bullets all around, then why do they need 15 or even 10? And why rifles or submachine guns if they have such good aim and fire discipline?
Having 30 rounds in a magazine doesn't mean you have to use them all at one target, genius. What would you rather have, a live cop who dropped one or several badguys and has some extra rounds in his gun, or a dead cop who runs out of ammo facing several badguys. "15 rounds are fine..." is planning for best case, which is great, if things go the way you think they will...but if they don't, good guys die.
I have a huge amount of respect for the armed and unarmed officers for the jobs they do. But I have no respect for the arm chair commandos and know it all hippies who sit in front of their computers deciding what's "fine" for a cop risking his life to protect your fat ass. Giving your cops (firefighters, soldiers, whatever) anything less then all the resources that can easily/reasonibly be provided is idiotic.

[von_Moo142]

This is getting pretty silly now.


But I have no respect for the arm chair commandos and know it all hippies who sit in front of their computers deciding what's "fine" for a cop risking his life to protect your fat ass.

It's a classic example of armchar commandoism when an indivdual chooses to second guess the choices made by a professional body without being in possession of all the facts. Are you trying to say that the firearms units in the British police don't know their jobs?


Please see this link also, for some general background:

http://www.polfed.org/we_stand_firearms.asp

[joe mama]

This is getting pretty silly now.
It's a classic example of armchar commandoism when an indivdual chooses to second guess the choices made by a professional body without being in possession of all the facts. Are you trying to say that the firearms units in the British police don't know their jobs?

If they think it's necessary to arm these officers with rifles, but don't think the rifles should carry the full capacity of rounds they were designed for, then they're making just as bad a choice as the US departments that choose Glocks because their controls are simpler (their description) than other manufacturers that make better pistols, because they think it's too difficult to learn how to use the extra one or two controls on the other pistols. Their main reason for choosing them is cost, but most departments cite training as the second reason. If your officers can handle learning how to use a pistol with one more control than a Glock, then they shouldn't be armed in the first place, just like if the officers can handle a rifle, but can't handle having it loaded to full capacity, then why bother with the rifle? I'm not necessarily criticizing the departments for making these choices, because most likely the choice is politically motivated so people won't think the cops are too heavily armed, like having 30 rounds in a magazine is a big difference to having 15. I'm just as critical of the same kind of stupid decisions that happen in the US. And by the way, my dad was a cop in a big city for 23 years, so I've heard quite a bit about how decisions like this get made. Too often it's got nothing to do with what the officers really need, especially when planning for worst case scenarios, and far too much to do with what politicians force the officers to do.

[BiZ]

Thanks for the info!
Here in the US of A the generally keep the heavy hardware hidden in the trunk ("boot" for you foreigners) of their vehicles. It seems strange seeing police walk around with this kind of firepower on a daily basis. During times of major crimes/situations (D.C. sniper, Hollywood bank robbery, etc.) they bring out the canons over here, but ut's not a 24/7 type of thing.

Seems strange to see Police walking around with the "heavy hardware" on a daily basis eh? Hmmmmmm me thinks I've seen NYPD ESU in full tactical gear on beat patrol since "9/11".....

[oldsoak]

UK police dont envisage getting involved in a mass exchange of rounds. A 30rd mag is plenty for a marksman armed with a semi auto weapon in most UK citcumstances. There is also the arguement that police are not military and do not have to assault and hold an objective. Carrying a limited number of rounds encourages both fire discipline and self control.

[meh]

As far as I know the limited rounds is a BS political correctness thing introduced because as Police they are there to 'protect' people and not go about shooting things up. God forbid anyone die whilst the officer is changing mags, certainly won't be the guy that made the decision anyway.

Although I'd imagine the ARV crew would benefit from the shorter mags on MP5s getting out of vehicles in a hurry. I think they probably carry the bigger mags in their kit though.

[joe mama]

UK police dont envisage getting involved in a mass exchange of rounds. A 30rd mag is plenty for a marksman armed with a semi auto weapon in most UK citcumstances. There is also the arguement that police are not military and do not have to assault and hold an objective. Carrying a limited number of rounds encourages both fire discipline and self control.

And the LA Police didn't envisage getting in a shootout at a bank with two heavily armed guys wearing two layers (if I remember correctly) of body armor. But it happened. And the cops were, mostly, outgunned.

I love the belief many of you seem to have that if you have a large number of rounds, you lose all self control and start hosing down everything in sight. If these guys have the training and discipline to carry these rifles in the first place, then carrying 15 vs 30 rounds (or whatever) shouldn't make a difference in how they handle themselves.

I just hope none of these officers end up dead because they go into a situation that doesn't fit into one of your neat and clean little scenarios where just showing the guns is enough, or they only need to take a small number of shots.

[joe mama]

As far as I know the limited rounds is a BS political correctness thing introduced because as Police they are there to 'protect' people and not go about shooting things up. God forbid anyone die whilst the officer is changing mags, certainly won't be the guy that made the decision anyway.

Although I'd imagine the ARV crew would benefit from the shorter mags on MP5s getting out of vehicles in a hurry. I think they probably carry the bigger mags in their kit though.

Hey! Whaddaya know, somebody coming at this from the same point of view as me - that it's most likely a BS political correctness thing.

I doubt the difference in size on the MP5 mags would make that much difference getting out of vehicles in a hurry, but you're right, it could, same way it can be better to have a carbine sized rifle rather than a full sized one in tight quarters...

[Hydro]

ARV crews are there to respond to "I think someones got a gun" or "theres a man with a shotgun standing in the street" type calls. Anything like "There someone with a PKM holding up a bank" or "He's holding an Armalite to my kids head" is usually referred to the Intervention teams, and they roll in with God knows what, but generally includes selective fire kit with no ammo capacity limitations and snipers with large rifles. Think Rainbow 6 but with budgetary concerns.

[meh]

I love the belief many of you seem to have that if you have a large number of rounds, you lose all self control and start hosing down everything in sight. If these guys have the training and discipline to carry these rifles in the first place, then carrying 15 vs 30 rounds (or whatever) shouldn't make a difference in how they handle themselves.

I just hope none of these officers end up dead because they go into a situation that doesn't fit into one of your neat and clean little scenarios where just showing the guns is enough, or they only need to take a small number of shots.

Precisely.

Agreeing with a Yank, time to go get that lobotomy. ;)

[oldsoak]

The round limitation was one that the police arrived at themselves based on their belief as to what was considered sufficient for purpose given the levels of threat they were likely to meet. Turning up with a multitude of mags and loadsa rounds would probably get you drawn to one side to be asked if you'd seen any good cowboy movies recently. :) . Their attitude was that they were policemen first, armed response second. Understand that we dont have the same levels of armed violence that US LEOs have to deal with - yet. The UK police were also concerned that they should not present a paramilitary image to the general public, so they try an appear unthreatening to Joe public.

[Roger Rabbit]

Coming up against men armed with machines guns and full body suits of armour is more the exception than the rule.

Are there any instances in the UK of the Police running out of ammunition in a fire fight(correct term to use?) or voicing concerns about the amount or lack of ammunition that they carry?

[meh]

oldsoak - Which force are you refering too there?

Personally the difference of scaryness between a man with a gun and a man with a gun and less bullets is non-existant. I can't count how many rounds he may or may not have, most of the public probably couldn't either.

ARV crews are likely to be the first responders to any firearms incident except for pre-planned jobs.

In short why low load? Same reason officers have to 'fire one shot, assess, shoot again if needs'. Politically correct BS.

[joe mama]

The round limitation was one that the police arrived at themselves based on their belief as to what was considered sufficient for purpose given the levels of threat they were likely to meet. Turning up with a multitude of mags and loadsa rounds would probably get you drawn to one side to be asked if you'd seen any good cowboy movies recently. :) . Their attitude was that they were policemen first, armed response second. Understand that we dont have the same levels of armed violence that US LEOs have to deal with - yet. The UK police were also concerned that they should not present a paramilitary image to the general public, so they try an appear unthreatening to Joe public.

I can understand the thinking that would decide the armed officers are ok with just a handgun because it's so unlikely they'll run into a situation where they'll need an smg/rifle. I may disagree with it, but I can understand it. But if you decide they need the smg/rifle, then why limit it's usefulness? I'm not looking for an answer, you've answered quite well, and I bet your right on the mix of factors. I'm just questioning the wisdom of the answer.

By the way, on your last comment: a guy walking around with an MP5 or a G36 or similar smg/rifle doesn't present a paramilitary image with 15 (or whatever the limit is) rounds in his magazine, but he does if he has the limit plus 1?

[von_Moo142]

Here's a page from a police force that actually provides some decent information about it's firearms officers.

http://www.herts.police.uk/specialists/firearms_support.htm

The paragraphs below might be of interest to many:


The weapons carried by Hertfordshire ARV officers are personal issue Sig Sauer P226 9mm Semi -Automatic Handguns, Heckler & Koch MP5 9mm Carbines, Sig Sauer 551 5.56mm Rifle, and the Heckler & Koch LA Baton Gun. The handguns are worn by the officers at all times when on patrol, the other weapons are kept in locked and secure safes within the vehicles.
All officers also carry their own personal protective equipment such as CS spray, Baton and Handcuffs. Personal issue Body armour is also worn at all times whilst on duty.


Other equipment carried in ARV 's are various items to assist in firearms incidents, door opening equipment, defibrillator, advanced first aid and oxygen therapy, information technology and equipment for dealing with Major Incidents.



Kudos to them for providing such detail.



If they think it's necessary to arm these officers with rifles, but don't think the rifles should carry the full capacity of rounds they were designed for, then they're making just as bad a choice as the US departments that choose Glocks because their controls are simpler (their description) than other manufacturers that make better pistols, because they think it's too difficult to learn how to use the extra one or two controls on the other pistols. Their main reason for choosing them is cost, but most departments cite training as the second reason. If your officers can handle learning how to use a pistol with one more control than a Glock, then they shouldn't be armed in the first place, just like if the officers can handle a rifle, but can't handle having it loaded to full capacity, then why bother with the rifle? I'm not necessarily criticizing the departments for making these choices, because most likely the choice is politically motivated so people won't think the cops are too heavily armed, like having 30 rounds in a magazine is a big difference to having 15. I'm just as critical of the same kind of stupid decisions that happen in the US. And by the way, my dad was a cop in a big city for 23 years, so I've heard quite a bit about how decisions like this get made. Too often it's got nothing to do with what the officers really need, especially when planning for worst case scenarios, and far too much to do with what politicians force the officers to do.

Thanks for elaborating.

[coded121]

has anyone ever heard of the TMR1 7.62 rifle as according to the suffolk police website this is in their armoury but i have ever heard of it and im having trouble locating any information on it

[oldsoak]

oldsoak - Which force are you refering too there?

Personally the difference of scaryness between a man with a gun and a man with a gun and less bullets is non-existant. I can't count how many rounds he may or may not have, most of the public probably couldn't either.

ARV crews are likely to be the first responders to any firearms incident except for pre-planned jobs.

In short why low load? Same reason officers have to 'fire one shot, assess, shoot again if needs'. Politically correct BS.

- I appreciate that :) - however we do have to manage peoples expectations in the context of trying to keep law and order while still haveing a friendly but firm face. Seeing an armed soldier causes less angst than seeing an armed policemen for a lot of people because we are used to the idea that soldiers have weapons, not cops - well, in the UK that is. ( though this may be changeing. I do admit that I find a policeman with a weapon strange despite everything. ) There has to be these guidelines and procedures to protect both the police officer and the public and to answer critics - especially those left wing types who love to compare us to some banana republic with death squads. Of course, guidelines are subject to review and will change to adapt to the level of threat.

[marktigger]

Police Service Of Northern Ireland

Glock
MP5
HK33


why are our police services going for the Glock why can't they buy a decent make like SIG or HK

[anti_septic]

The round limitation was one that the police arrived at themselves based on their belief as to what was considered sufficient for purpose given the levels of threat they were likely to meet. Turning up with a multitude of mags and loadsa rounds would probably get you drawn to one side to be asked if you'd seen any good cowboy movies recently. :) . Their attitude was that they were policemen first, armed response second. Understand that we dont have the same levels of armed violence that US LEOs have to deal with - yet. The UK police were also concerned that they should not present a paramilitary image to the general public, so they try an appear unthreatening to Joe public.

I can understand the thinking that would decide the armed officers are ok with just a handgun because it's so unlikely they'll run into a situation where they'll need an smg/rifle. I may disagree with it, but I can understand it. But if you decide they need the smg/rifle, then why limit it's usefulness? I'm not looking for an answer, you've answered quite well, and I bet your right on the mix of factors. I'm just questioning the wisdom of the answer.

By the way, on your last comment: a guy walking around with an MP5 or a G36 or similar smg/rifle doesn't present a paramilitary image with 15 (or whatever the limit is) rounds in his magazine, but he does if he has the limit plus 1?

I live in the UK and so often see officers armed with MP5s/pistols etc at airports and on occasion it has made me wonder how they could cope with the sort of determined and ferocious attack that the Abu Nidal group carried out in Rome airport back in Dec 1985. On that occasion a gang of terrorists posing as passengers pulled AKs and hand grenades from their baggage and basically laid waste to the terminal check in area and large numbers of people in it. It doesn't exactly fill me with confidence to know that if a UK police officer was first on the scene in that kind of worst case scenario he /she would only have 15 rounds in his/her MP5.

Police planning should be for the worst case (esp as we will shortly have a general election in the UK and we all know what happened in the run up to Spain's general election last year).

[oldsoak]

There are some good points being made here - do we have the ability to cope with Abu Nidal type attacks ? Where do we say "this is a job for the police" or "this is SAS territory" ? Maybe we need a special unit to deal with this - headed by the Police to ensure that the friendly face is civilian with combined army/police armed teams doing the rounds overtly and covertly to make sure all is well.

[meh]

There are some good points being made here - do we have the ability to cope with Abu Nidal type attacks ? Where do we say "this is a job for the police" or "this is SAS territory" ? Maybe we need a special unit to deal with this - headed by the Police to ensure that the friendly face is civilian with combined army/police armed teams doing the rounds overtly and covertly to make sure all is well.

I thought one of the SO's already was tasked with this sort of thing? SO19 regularly cross-trains with our SF anyway. Then you have the sticky military working in a police roll thing to contend with.

http://www.met.police.uk/so/

Who knows maybe we already have such a unit. Although I'd imagine the key to defeating terrorist attacks is good intelligence.

[FOX 1]

Thanks for everyone info, it was very helpful.
"Police Service Of Northern Ireland

Glock
MP5
HK33


why are our police services going for the Glock why can't they buy a decent make like SIG or HK.

Many LE Agencies changed from Sig's, Revovlers, S&W semi autos etc to Glocks because they like the Glock trigger pull, which is no difference to the revovlers they carried in earlier decades. The other factor is the price of Glocks are cheaper then the Sigs and HK Pistols, plus Glock dosen't have the deactiving cocker that Sig's have and the manual safety on some HK usp handguns. In which some agencies view these cockers and manual safeties are prehaps unnecessary. Although Sig and HK handguns are pretty fined but most LE Agencies these days converted or chosse the Glocks as their standard issue handgun like FBI, DEA, most UK Police Armed units, 6 out of 8 Australia State Police, some US big cities PD's like NYPD, LAPD. ( according to Glock, now 60% of U.S LE agencies carried Glocks)

I understand you may be a big fan of HK and Sig Handguns, but from the trend you can see Glocks are more popular with LE Agencies. I do appreciate the adavantages of HK and SIG handguns but you have to understand the advantages of Glocks and why so many LE agencies adopted it.

[Gringo]

I've just talked to my lecturer at the College.

You've got to be a bobby for five years before you can join the ARU.

[martinexsquaddie]

I can't remember a case where the police in the uk got into any sort of firefight.
they mostly deal with nutters in seige type situations
or preplanned ambushes where the tactic is not to give the criminals a chance of shooting there way out.
the uk has no way near the same level of armed crime as the Us regardless of geezahs properganda.
the limits on mags may well be political but are unlikley to change as the long as the threat level remains the same

[Geezah]

I can't remember a case where the police in the uk got into any sort of firefight.
they mostly deal with nutters in seige type situations
or preplanned ambushes where the tactic is not to give the criminals a chance of shooting there way out.

The Brit Police go in mob handed after the fact, I'll give them credit for that!



the uk has no way near the same level of armed crime as the Us regardless of geezahs properganda.

You mean no where near the number of news reports I post of the non-existent firearm crime that doesn't happen in the UK, or the fact that due to extreme gun control laws, criminals do not have access to firearms in the UK?



the limits on mags may well be political but are unlikley to change as the long as the threat level remains the same

It's bloody stupid, 15rnd mags, then why not give them all Beretta Storms?

[fantassin]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/7374833.jpg

Playing the guitar ?

[Hawkeye]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/gringosix/7374833.jpg

Playing the guitar ?


Cool pic, really cool

[BiZ]

Posted before? Sorry if they have been....


http://img248.echo.cx/img248/1740/3024li.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img247.echo.cx/img247/7329/3036uu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img248.echo.cx/img248/4851/3100ow.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img250.echo.cx/img250/4521/55kw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[xRx]

The reason so much of LE use the Glock is because Glock virtually give them away. I know in the states some agencies pay around $200 for their plastic pistols.

If a gang of terrorists tried on anything like that the officers responding wouldn't be carrying swhort mags, they'd have them fully loaded in the weapon safe in the back of their vehicle.

[31337]

belgian SIE ==> special intervention escuadron

its a unit that can end any mission in 5 minutes, the main tactics is getting everybody out alive woot
the belgian snipers shoot a sigar out of some1 mouth from 100 meters awy, i cant find any picture lol
they also operate on any terrain, like naval missions

[thatguy96]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/thatguy96/2005%20Ireland%20Trip/20HK33withNV.jpg
HK 33 w/ NV scope

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/thatguy96/2005%20Ireland%20Trip/19Bannbridgeguns.jpg
MP5s

Pictures taken during a tour of PSNI Bannbridge

[mugs69]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/thatguy96/2005%20Ireland%20Trip/20HK33withNV.jpg
HK 33 w/ NV scope

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/thatguy96/2005%20Ireland%20Trip/19Bannbridgeguns.jpg
MP5s

Pictures taken during a tour of PSNI Bannbridge

Tactical Fire arms unit woot The northern irish version of SWAT

[EsoognomEhT]

An argument about fire discipline from a man whos Army aren't trusted with Full auto weaponry as per standard? teeheheheh