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Slater
03-29-2005, 10:37 PM
This is one infantry rifle that seems to get little attention from the firearms folks. Anyone know if it's been a success in service?

Durandal
03-30-2005, 03:27 AM
Manufactured by the Indian National Small Arms System...

Replaced the L1A1. Loosely based on the AK with a G3 styled charging lever. Entered service in the late 90's. Chambered in 5.56 NATO.

I know its seen use in some of the flare ups with Pakistan and I would hope its at least a decent rifle since there are hundreds of thousands issued to the army.

REMOV
03-30-2005, 05:13 AM
This is one infantry rifle that seems to get little attention from the firearms folks. Anyone know if it's been a success in service?Not quite... or maybe I should said it is a failure. A big failure...

There are still technical problems with INSAS rifle - in December 1999 Indian Army complains about jamming at sub-zero temperatures in Kashmir and the Siachen Glacier. Also among the faults of the weapon are a defective barrel, a faulty change lever system and a poor carrying handle. The offcial raport states that despite over 15 years of development work, the army has found the carbine unacceptable due to the "high sound level and heating of the muzzle". Comparing to the old Polish, Romanian and Hungarian AK's, the army officials say they are more dependable than their own INSAS.

The other problem is a cost, INSAS was designed as cheap assault rifle, but it appears the unit price is higher than expected, about 360 USD each, when Romanian imported AK were bought in 1995 for... 93 USD each, about 25% the cost of the INSAS rifle!

Besides development problems the introduction of the weapon into service was delayed by the failure to establish local 5.56mm ammunition production - INSAS isn't fed by normal 5.56mm NATO (SS109) round but the "upgraded" copy (optimized to the longer distance fire and with greater piercing capacity). But finally they bought over 50 000 000 5.56mm rounds in Israel.

And after the purchase, Indian Army Special Forces, which forced in mid-80 to replace old 7.62mm 1A1 (1A SL) battle rifles by new design... ordered in Israel 5.56mm Tavor's, suggested that the Israeli rifle better meet their requirements that their own INSAS rifle. So, they ordered ca.3100 Tavors TAR-21 with 40mm under-barrel grenade launchers, and also some sources said that IMI talks with the Indians to transfer technology and build Tavors in India.

Also Indian Army is soon expected to issue a RFP for an initial ca.55-60 000 5.56 mm carbines. And it probably be beginning of the end of the INSAS assault rifle history...

Durandal
03-30-2005, 10:21 AM
Wow...now THAT is a procurement nightmare.

oldsoak
03-30-2005, 12:18 PM
Any idea why didnt they make an AK47 clone or a Armalite ? Both cheap and easy enough to make I would have thought.

Adam Wilhelm
03-30-2005, 01:13 PM
National pride perhaps?

konkurs
03-30-2005, 01:14 PM
It seems that they made AK copy, but MTK is angry because of that.


DEFEXPO 2004

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_420.shtml

Any other info about this AK copy?

Is it possible to fire rifle grenades from Insas, just like from Indian version of FAL?

Luno
03-30-2005, 01:40 PM
One picture off the new New INSAS the magazine is plastic. The wood is replaced with plastic.
Plastic is a much better substitute than metal as far as reflections go. it also makes the rifle lighter and allows the user to check the ammo in the mag.
http://img18.exs.cx/img18/5323/namnls1dc.jpg

REMOV
03-30-2005, 03:01 PM
Wow...now THAT is a procurement nightmare.The story isn't over yet... ;)
Source (http://www.bsnl.in/hotnews.asp?intNewsId=27831&disstyle=block&daysbefore=all), 22 January 2004

Desi rookie rifle claims don AK-47's throne

CHENNAI: Indian paramilitary forces will soon have a new assault rifle called AK-7 that will rival the ubiquitous AK-47.

The new equivalent to the popular AK-47 will be used by paramilitary forces like the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and Border Security Force (BSF), said P.K. Mishra, chairman of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board, in Udhagamandalam, Tamil Nadu, on Tuesday (where he participated in the centenary celebrations of the Cordite Factory).

The sophisticated India-designed rifle is getting ready to be used soon. Army sources said the AK-7 will give the AK-47—the most popular among assault rifles in the world—a run for its money.

Named after its inventor Mikhail Kalashnikov, the automatic 7.62-mm calibre AK-47 can fire 600 or more rounds per minute and has been modified half a dozen times.

The original AK-47 was not mobile but it was modified by equipping it with a metal stock so it could be carried by parachute troops and armoured troops.

The original did not have a bayonet either. It was later equipped with one.

However, despite all its shortcomings, no gun in the world is more preferred by standard armies and paramilitary forces (...)

Source: The Times of India

REMOV
03-30-2005, 03:10 PM
Is it possible to fire rifle grenades from Insas, just like from Indian version of FAL?Yes, "muzzle attachment doubles as a flash eliminator and rifle grenade launcher."

More (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE1/BR-MON6.html) info about 1B1 and 1B2 INSAS.

mountainbear
03-31-2005, 03:33 PM
I’ve found two pics here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/
I think first one was already posted, it’s an INSAS with an Israeli MARS sight, the second one is a improved INSAS called Excalibur.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/ReflexSight02.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/ExcaliburINSAS.jpg
Does anyone have more information about this new version? I think it looks good and the folding stock is a good thing.

RBull
04-01-2005, 04:17 AM
The INSAS is obviously based on AK design with many details inspided by Valmet/Galil. Interesting how dificult it could be to make the "improved design" work at least as good as the original...

There are already sevaral more or less sucesfull 5.56x45 NATO caliber designs based on AK, now even original Izhevsk AK's made in that caliber, not to mention selection of other good "ready off the shelf" designs availble. Why waste money on another "ingenious" design which is in fact just slightly different to those already existing?

BTW, is the Indian 5.56mm ammo the same size as 5.56x45 NATO?

oldsoak
04-01-2005, 06:55 AM
indian 5.56 is the same dimensions as the nato round.

REMOV
04-01-2005, 09:49 AM
The INSAS is obviously based on AK design with many details inspided by Valmet/Galil....and FN FAL and G3.
Why waste money on another "ingenious" design which is in fact just slightly different to those already existing?The reason is the same as using vz.58 assault rifle instead of better AK(M). The national pride ;)

israeli dude
04-01-2005, 01:16 PM
I’ve found two pics here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/
I think first one was already posted, it’s an INSAS with an Israeli MARS sight, the second one is a improved INSAS called Excalibur.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/ReflexSight02.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/ExcaliburINSAS.jpg
Does anyone have more information about this new version? I think it looks good and the folding stock is a good thing.

this is the first time i see the weapon with the mars,did we soplaid india with the opt???

RBull
04-01-2005, 03:06 PM
The INSAS is obviously based on AK design with many details inspided by Valmet/Galil....and FN FAL and G3.
Why waste money on another "ingenious" design which is in fact just slightly different to those already existing?The reason is the same as using vz.58 assault rifle instead of better AK(M). The national pride ;)

OK, true. In fact Czech Lada, aka Vz. 2000 is one of the less sucessfull designs based on AK (74) :) Interestingly, the Vz. 58 are also in Indian armed foces use, have seen few on the pics posted here in several other threads.

mountainbear
04-01-2005, 05:02 PM
I’ve found two pics here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/
I think first one was already posted, it’s an INSAS with an Israeli MARS sight, the second one is a improved INSAS called Excalibur.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/ReflexSight02.jpghttp://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/images/ExcaliburINSAS.jpg
Does anyone have more information about this new version? I think it looks good and the folding stock is a good thing.

this is the first time i see the weapon with the mars,did we soplaid india with the opt???

Probably some MARS where purchased by India at same time as the Tavor, but the INSAS + MARS combination was for demonstration of Indian Integrated Soldier during Aero India.

REMOV
04-02-2005, 04:24 AM
In fact Czech Lada, aka Vz. 2000 is one of the less sucessfull designs based on AK (74) :) Right, than was something called CZ2000 in 5.56mm but also make no impressions ;)

BTW - have you heard any rumors about converting Czech army to the 5.56mm ammunition?
Interestingly, the Vz. 58 are also in Indian armed foces use, have seen few on the pics posted here in several other threads.The Indians bought not only AKMs but also vz.58 to meet their requirements. This assault weapon went to the paratroopers and other more or less elite and special units.

tony6
04-02-2005, 05:07 AM
BTW - have you heard any rumors about converting Czech army to the 5.56mm ammunition?
Hmmm...do they still use 7,62 ammo???
They are a NATO member!

REMOV
04-02-2005, 05:30 AM
Hmmm...do they still use 7,62 ammo???Yes. 7.62mm x 39 M1943.
They are a NATO member!So what? The Russian ammunition is still used by Bulgaria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, even in Poland the 7.62mm kbk AKM/AKMS is still more popular than 5.56mm kbs wz.96 Beryl.

tony6
04-02-2005, 10:13 AM
So what? The Russian ammunition is still used by Bulgaria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, even in Poland the 7.62mm kbk AKM/AKMS is still more popular than 5.56mm kbs wz.96 Beryl.
Yes, but we officialy switched to 5.56 few years ago and we still have a lot AKMS in use. I was surprised that Czech army still hadn't adopted new caliber.

RBull
04-02-2005, 04:52 PM
[quote=RBull]In fact Czech Lada, aka Vz. 2000 is one of the less sucessfull designs based on AK (74) :) Right, than was something called CZ2000 in 5.56mm but also make no impressions ;)

My bad, I ment CZ 2000, not "Vz.", as it was never adopted into military service. It is the original LADA in 5.62x45 NATO caliber. So far I know, despite several offers to international customers made during the years, no one bought CZ 2000 system.


BTW - have you heard any rumors about converting Czech army to the 5.56mm ammunition?

Not yet, but there are some indications, which could be (with little bit of vivid imagination) translated that someone is preparing political ground for that costly change. I mean millions of rounds of 7.62x39 ammo from Czech Army stock "donated" to Afghanistan and maybe elsewhere... There were enough ammo and Vz.58 assault rifles for WW3 and beyond, therefore it is politically difficult to justify purchase of new small arms system. Also interestingly, Czechoslovak (commie) army was one of few WP armies (I thing Hungarian Army is the other), which did not adopted the 5.45x39 round, although it was planned.

konkurs
04-03-2005, 03:58 AM
What is differences with Vz. 2000 and CZ 2000, and does ti made LADA in 5,45x39?

RBull
04-03-2005, 04:19 AM
CZ 2000 is the correct designation, there is no Vz. 2000 system made in Czech Rep., that was my mistake in the post above. CZ 2000 started its life as LADA, which was originally developed in 5.45x39 caliber as intended replacement of Vz. 58, but after collapse of communist regime in Czechoslovakia and consequent transformation of now separate Czech and Slovak armies to NATO standards after 1989, other projects received more priority than small arms and therefore both Czech and Slovak army are still using the Vz.58 (SF units are different story though).

Sorry for hijacking this thread Slater :oops:

lemontree
04-03-2005, 09:00 AM
This is one infantry rifle that seems to get little attention from the firearms folks. Anyone know if it's been a success in service?Not quite... or maybe I should said it is a failure. A big failure...
Hi guys(to those who don't know me), and Hi REMOV,
REMOV from what I have of your posts in other forums you have a vast knowledge of small arms. However, about the INSAS my friend you are dead wrong, because you are "assuming", without even having even one post out here from a person who has used the weapon.
Now the reason why there is not much international attention is because OFB has not yet started to dent the international market, except with exports to Nepal in the form of aid to fight the maoist rebels.

There are still technical problems with INSAS rifle - in December 1999 Indian Army complains about jamming at sub-zero temperatures in Kashmir and the Siachen Glacier.
My friend that is the case with every weapon on the killer heights of Siachin Glacier. The AGS-17 does not fire AT ALL out there, so does it make it a failure?..The extream cold of -50 degrees will even freeze the M16 and the Aug Styr. It is all a question about maintenance, and using the right anti-freeze lubricant. In fact most battles faught in Siachin, battle knives like khukris and dahs play more of a role than weapons. We can discuss maintenance of weapons in another thread as it is a subject in itself.

Also among the faults of the weapon are a defective barrel, a faulty change lever system and a poor carrying handle.
That is pure BS. The barrels are fine.
- The faulty change lever complaint was when it fired a few more rounds instead of 3 rounds - does that make it a problem?
- Poor carrying handle?? - where did you get this from.

The offcial raport states that despite over 15 years of development work, the army has found the carbine unacceptable due to the "high sound level and heating of the muzzle".
Ah yes the carbine has problems, but none of them are about "high sound' and 'heating of the barrel'. The main problem is the jump in the rounds when they leave the barrel, the half spoon lip does not solve the problem as it does for the AK series.
The 9 mm version was fine, but it was not acceptable as the army wanted to centre its infantry small arms around the 5.56 mm round.

Comparing to the old Polish, Romanian and Hungarian AK's, the army officials say they are more dependable than their own INSAS.
Not quite. the dependability is on par, the accuracy is better in INSAS.

The other problem is a cost, INSAS was designed as cheap assault rifle, but it appears the unit price is higher than expected, about 360 USD each, when Romanian imported AK were bought in 1995 for... 93 USD each, about 25% the cost of the INSAS rifle!
The HK/Aug Styr are good weapons and cost much more that the 93 USD - does that make them failures?

Besides development problems the introduction of the weapon into service was delayed by the failure to establish local 5.56mm ammunition production - INSAS isn't fed by normal 5.56mm NATO (SS109) round but the "upgraded" copy (optimized to the longer distance fire and with greater piercing capacity). But finally they bought over 50 000 000 5.56mm rounds in Israel.
That was in the mid-90s, not now.

Indian Army Special Forces, which forced in mid-80 to replace old 7.62mm 1A1 (1A SL) battle rifles by new design... ordered in Israel 5.56mm Tavor's, suggested that the Israeli rifle better meet their requirements that their own INSAS rifle. So, they ordered ca.3100 Tavors TAR-21 with 40mm under-barrel grenade launchers, and also some sources said that IMI talks with the Indians to transfer technology and build Tavors in India.
The special forces had to buy their own toys once their tasks changed in the '80s.
They switched to the Vz.58 mid-1980s, due to increased COIN related tasks, for which the L1A1 was not suitable. They would have never gone in for the INSAS as their needs are different. Besides they have an option of buying their own toys. The TAR-21 is just for the SOF, so there is no production going to take place.

And it probably be beginning of the end of the INSAS assault rifle history...
That is a biased statement for an army that choses its weapons with more care and deliberation than most 1st world armies. Our testing procedures can make the most well known brands sweat. It is no wonder that IA used the MAG-58 since the late '60, and the US army inducted it only in the late '80s after the M60 proved no match for the MAG.
I will write a small essay on the development an concept behind the INSAS that would clear many doubts and misconceptions.

azér
04-03-2005, 10:13 AM
One picture off the new New INSAS the magazine is plastic. The wood is replaced with plastic.
Plastic is a much better substitute than metal as far as reflections go. it also makes the rifle lighter and allows the user to check the ammo in the mag.
http://img18.exs.cx/img18/5323/namnls1dc.jpg

isn't that an fnc??

mountainbear
04-03-2005, 10:39 AM
One picture off the new New INSAS the magazine is plastic. The wood is replaced with plastic.
Plastic is a much better substitute than metal as far as reflections go. it also makes the rifle lighter and allows the user to check the ammo in the mag.
http://img18.exs.cx/img18/5323/namnls1dc.jpg

isn't that an fnc??

No, these are INSAS (you can see he shortened version behind) presented at Aero India 2003 edition, but it is true they look similar.

lemontree
04-04-2005, 12:58 PM
azer,
mountainbear is right. The picture is of the INSAS rifle, and yes it does resemble the FN FNC.

Polyshot
04-05-2005, 04:48 AM
Also interestingly, Czechoslovak (commie) army was one of few WP armies (I thing Hungarian Army is the other), which did not adopted the 5.45x39 round, although it was planned.

Not to mention the Finns....... isn't their RK.95s are still chambered for 7.62mmx39?

tony6
04-05-2005, 07:15 AM
lemontree:
Dude: You've just started a major firefight with REMOV.
I can't wait to see him returning fire ;)

kinghk
04-05-2005, 10:59 AM
Also interestingly, Czechoslovak (commie) army was one of few WP armies (I thing Hungarian Army is the other), which did not adopted the 5.45x39 round, although it was planned.

Not to mention the Finns....... isn't their RK.95s are still chambered for 7.62mmx39?

Correct

rajkhalsa
04-05-2005, 01:29 PM
lemontree:
Dude: You've just started a major firefight with REMOV.
I can't wait to see him returning fire ;)
Lemontree is retried IA officer. He speaks from 1st hand experience ;)

tony6
04-05-2005, 03:50 PM
Lemontree is retried IA officer. He speaks from 1st hand experience
I would say he is a "local patriot" ;)

RBull
04-05-2005, 05:30 PM
Also interestingly, Czechoslovak (commie) army was one of few WP armies (I thing Hungarian Army is the other), which did not adopted the 5.45x39 round, although it was planned.

Not to mention the Finns....... isn't their RK.95s are still chambered for 7.62mmx39?

Finland was not in WP, however you are right that they are still happy with 7.62x39...

brigadeotg
04-05-2005, 08:10 PM
Lemontree is retried IA officer. He speaks from 1st hand experience
I would say he is a "local patriot" ;)

Coming from someone who has never seen a battle before.. it looks plain silly rofl

tony6
04-06-2005, 01:59 AM
Coming from someone who has never seen a battle before.. it looks plain silly
And what does "never seeing a battle" has to do with being "local patriot" Mr.Chairborne Ranger?

brigadeotg
04-06-2005, 12:45 PM
Coming from someone who has never seen a battle before.. it looks plain silly
And what does "never seeing a battle" has to do with being "local patriot" Mr.Chairborne Ranger?

Lol.... Like I said, sitting in Eurowussieland,don't pretend to know anything about anything Indian... Go back to whatever it is you guys do bak there Mr Uberinternet warrior :lol:

tony6
04-06-2005, 01:01 PM
Me-Eurowussie? Don't offend me!
I'm Polish :lol:

lemontree
04-06-2005, 01:04 PM
lemontree:
Dude: You've just started a major firefight with REMOV.
I can't wait to see him returning fire ;)
REMOV and I are familiar with each others knowledge,...so we debate and don't firefight.

lemontree
04-06-2005, 01:04 PM
Deleted: Double post

tony6
04-06-2005, 01:24 PM
REMOV and I are familiar with each others knowledge,...so we debate and don't firefight.
That's why I put the ;) smile into it.
(a hint: it was a joke).

brigadeotg
04-06-2005, 01:56 PM
Me-Eurowussie? Don't offend me!
I'm Polish :lol:
haha same difference :D

tony6
04-06-2005, 02:02 PM
I prefer "New Europe" ;)

lemontree
04-07-2005, 01:50 PM
REMOV and I are familiar with each others knowledge,...so we debate and don't firefight.
That's why I put the ;) smile into it.
(a hint: it was a joke).
No offence taken.

REMOV
04-09-2005, 09:12 AM
However, about the INSAS my friend you are dead wrong, because you are "assuming", without even having even one post out here from a person who has used the weapon.I'm afraid, lemontree, it doesn't matter (or such opinion is little significant). You know, there is always at least one lover of any rifle ever created, which could convince the whole world that such weapon is ideal ;)
Now the reason why there is not much international attention is because OFB has not yet started to dent the international market, except with exports to Nepal in the form of aid to fight the maoist rebels.Lemontree, the 1B1/1B2 rifle family (INSAS) has been in development since the mid-1980s. Over 20 years ago. A first batch of 7,000 rifles was due
for delivery in mid-1994. The rifle is still more expensive than AKM, offers less reliability and - what's more - even don't accepted by the soldiers which forced the authorities to replace 1A1 (1A SL).
My friend that is the case with every weapon on the killer heights of Siachin Glacier. Check out the SG550 (Stgw 90) tests. Take a AK-10x and use it there.
It is all a question about maintenance, and using the right anti-freeze lubricant. So? The INSAS rifle haven't right lubricant or maintenance there? Fire that officers and soldiers! ;)
We can discuss maintenance of weapons in another thread as it is a subject in itself. They compare the INSAS to the old AKs. So, you're suggest that they use the proper maintenance and lubricant to the old weapons and don't do the same to the newest one? But why? They don't like INSAS at first glance or what? ;)
That is pure BS. The barrels are fine.Not according to the Army raport in December 1999.
- The faulty change lever complaint was when it fired a few more rounds instead of 3 rounds - does that make it a problem?Yes. This is technical unsloved problem.
- Poor carrying handle?? - where did you get this from.Jane's, Raul Bedi article.
Not quite. the dependability is on par, the accuracy is better in INSAS.It's the advantage of the INSAS. But it doesn't help you if the weapon doesn't work properly, right?
The HK/Aug Styr are good weapons and cost much more that the 93 USD - does that make them failures? Lemontree, the Indian government decides to buy 100 000 cheaper rifle instead of INSAS. Why?
That was in the mid-90s, not now.Right.
The special forces had to buy their own toys once their tasks changed in the '80s.So, the INSAS doesn't suit the special forces and border guard? What's so special in Tavor?
They would have never gone in for the INSAS as their needs are different. Besides they have an option of buying their own toys. The TAR-21 is just for the SOF, so there is no production going to take place.We will see. This is opinion one of the Jane's Correspondent's, it naturally may be wrong.
That is a biased statement for an army that choses its weapons with more care and deliberation than most 1st world armies. You know, this sentence is pure platitude, no offence. Which 1st world armies developes it rifle over 20 years? ;)
Our testing procedures can make the most well known brands sweat. So, the Tavor passed them without any problems, right? How long Israeli tested and developed their rifle? ;)
I will write a small essay on the development an concept behind the INSAS that would clear many doubts and misconceptions.I'll read it with pleasure. But also there are still many questions to answer. BTW - what is 1B1 MRBF? How many rounds barrel survives?

bluered12
04-09-2005, 11:15 AM
Does anyone have pictures of the INSAS carbine?

Here is a picture of a INSAS version called INSAS Para (probably INSAS carbine?):

http://img133.exs.cx/img133/6357/insaspara5rh.jpg

This is not releated to INSAS, but to Indian firearms:

This gun was shown on DEFEXPO 2004, can anyone please id the gun?


http://img133.exs.cx/img133/2346/unbekanntewaffe9oa.jpg

thx in advance

Slater
04-09-2005, 11:21 AM
I've seen some pictures of INSAS rifles with the reddish-brown furniture, and others with black-appearing furniture. Are both styles still in production?

lemontree
04-10-2005, 11:04 AM
REMOV,
I'll reply to your questions in a deliberate manner. I don't want to post off the cuff remarks, at least when I'm discussing with a person like you. ;)
(I'm a bit pressed for time due to a wedding in the family).
blusered,
The first picture of the INSAS looks more like some export concoction. We have'nt heard much about it.
The INSAS carbine is shown in the second picture. It is the top weapon with the pistol grip on the forearm. However, this carbine does not have the trigger that we use to get when we were testing them.

Slater,
The light brown stock is made for the Indian forces. The black ones are made for the Neplaese forces.
It depends on what is asked.

konkurs
04-10-2005, 02:21 PM
It is very similar to Romanian AKM, with forehand, but it is in 5,56, second thing is that cocking reciver handle is on the right side just like every AK mechanism, Insas has on the left side, jut like H&K.

bluered12
04-10-2005, 06:15 PM
The INSAS carbine is shown in the second picture. It is the top weapon with the pistol grip on the forearm. However, this carbine does not have the trigger that we use to get when we were testing them.

Are you sure this is INSAS carbine? When I found the picture on the net it was named "Insas carbine", but as Konkurs said it looks more like an AK-47 with wooden foregrip in 5.56mm.

Here is an other unknown rifle from India (?). It was captured from rebels. I was also told this is INSAS carbine.


http://img62.echo.cx/img62/1746/unknownrifle4gb.jpg

So we have 3 different rifles and all are said to be INSAS carbine :|

lemontree
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
Are you sure this is INSAS carbine? When I found the picture on the net it was named "Insas carbine", but as Konkurs said it looks more like an AK-47 with wooden foregrip in 5.56mm.
Its the INSAS carbine 100%. Yes it does look like the AK from the angle in the picture, but if a proper picture was posted it looks very different.


Here is an other unknown rifle from India (?). It was captured from rebels. I was also told this is INSAS carbine.


http://img62.echo.cx/img62/1746/unknownrifle4gb.jpg

So we have 3 different rifles and all are said to be INSAS carbine :|
Those are not INSAS carbines, they don't even look INSAS.
Only the 2nd picture of your post has the carbine.

lemontree
04-12-2005, 12:30 PM
BTW - what is 1B1 MRBF? How many rounds barrel survives?
1B1 is the INSAS rifle nomenclature.
Mean Rounds Before Failure is:-
Targetted - 10,000
Objective - 20,000
(found the MBRF through inquiries, I do not have the mfg printed literature yet)
Rest of your quaries will be answered in the essay I shall post shortly.

konkurs
04-12-2005, 12:41 PM
Can we get bigger pic. , the last one is to small to recognise details.

Thank you ! :D

REMOV
04-12-2005, 04:02 PM
1B1 is the INSAS rifle nomenclature.
Mean Rounds Before Failure is:- Targetted - 10,000 Objective - 20,000AFAIR AKM has MRBF of 18 000 rds, XM8 20 000 rds, SCAR have targetted MRBF of 15 000 rds and optimal 35 000 rds, L85A2 25 000rds.
Rest of your quaries will be answered in the essay I shall post shortly.OK.

REMOV
04-14-2005, 04:37 PM
More informations about INSAS... they are old but...
Source (http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/01aug13/national.htm#8)

INSAS is not performing to optimum level: Army

NEW DELHI, Aug 12: Army has complained that the country’s indegenious state-of-the-art 5.56mm Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) is not performing to the optimum level with major defects like cold arrest, breakage and cracking of components reported in active areas like Siachen Glacier, Kargil heights and other high altitude areas.

"Major defects in assault rifles as well as light machine guns like change lever system, breakage of carrying handle, screw locking butt, crack of retainer and breakage of barrel bulge have come to the fore from forward areas," top Army officials said.

They said that these defects, which had come to the fore even during the Kargil conflict, had been brought to the notice of rifle specialists at Ishapore factory as well DRDO scientists and that the defects were yet to be rectified.

These defects as well as ordinance factories not keeping to delivery schedules had forced the army, with Government clearance, to import one lakh AK-47 assault rifles from Romania at a cost of Rs 85 crore.

The imported AK-47 had been used to equip special forces, like the commando groups, units engaged in counter insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir and the forces facing Pakistani troops across the Line of Control (LoC), officials said.

They said a special task force comprising officials of master general of ordinanace, Directorate General of Quality Assurance, rifle specialists and DRDO scientists had been constituted to rectify the defects.

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has also taken Defence Ministry to task for a three-year delay in fulfilling Army’s plan to re-equip all its formations with indigenously developed 5.56 mm small arm system.

"The Army’s plan was to equip all its forces with these light arms by 1998 and ordinance factories supplied only 2.75 lakh rifles and light machine guns as on March 2000," CAG said in its latest report tabled in Parliament.

Army officials said the light machine gun from the INSAS series had been put through user trials from November 1987 to April 1992 and cleared for troop trials which also were completed by 1995.

Army served a bulk order production in 1997 subject to carrying out modification in carrying handle, mount for optical sight, pistol grip and locking pin.

CAG in its report said that despite Army having asked the ordinance board in July 1989 to speed up the process of development so as to introduce the weapon in 1990, "development and establishment of the weapon had lagged behind by eight years".

The report said the worse was the case of the INSAS carbine, which small arms factory, Kanpur, was not successful in developing even after 13 years leading to the army, supposed to be the bulk consumer, foreclosing its requirement of carbine in the present form.

The CAG also pulled up ordinance factories for massive shortfalls in supplies of small arms ammunition to the Army during the last seven years saying against an order for 43.46 crore round of ammunition, the ordinance factories had supplied only 26.55 crore rounds.

The report also said failure to produces carbines was even more glaring as a sum of Rs 22.18 crore had been spent on purchase of machine alone.

It also took to task ordinance factory, Varangaon, saying it had taken more than 12 years for development of tracer ammunition for the 5.56 mm system.

Giving a year wise break up in failure to meet delivery schedule of the 5.56 rifles, it said in 1993-94 Army against a requirement of 48,000 rifles placed an order for just 7000 without receiving even a single gun.

And between 1995 and 2000 against a requirement of 528,000 rifles, the Ishapore factory had only managed to supply half the number of 269,612 rifles, while to date against a requirement of 37,600 light machine guns, Army had barely received 5778. (PTI)
Source (http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1759706828.cms)

new delhi: the army has complained that the country's indigenous state-of-the-art 5.56 mm indian small arms system (insas) is not performing to the optimum level, with major defects like cold arrest, breakage and cracking of components reported in active areas like siachen glacier, kargil heights and other high-altitude zones. ``major defects in assault rifles as well as light machine guns like change lever system, breakage of carrying handle, screw locking butt, crack of retainer and breakage of barrel bulge have come to the fore from forward areas," top army officials said. they said that these defects, which had come to the fore even during the kargil conflict, had been brought to the notice of rifle specialists at ishapore factory as well drdo scientists, but the defects were yet to be rectified. these defects plus ordinance factories not keeping to delivery schedules had forced the army, with government clearance, to import one lakh ak-47 assault rifles from romania at a cost of rs 85 crore. the officials said that a special task force comprising officials of master general of ordinance, directorate general of quality assurance, rifle specialists and drdo scientists had been constituted to rectify the defects. the comptroller and auditor general has also taken the defence ministry to task for a three-year delay in fulfilling the army's plan to re-equip all its formations with the indigenously developed 5.56 mm small arms system. ``the army's plan was to equip all its forces with these light arms by 1998 and ordinance factories supplied only 2.75 lakh rifles and light machine guns as on march 2000," cag said in its latest report tabled in parliament. the report stated that despite the army having asked the ordinance board in july 1989 to speed up the process of development so as to introduce the weapon in 1990, ``development and establishment of the weapon had lagged behind by eight years."
Source (http://www.russiajournal.com/news/cnews-article.shtml?nd=45964)

Kalashnikov automatic rifles to be produced in India

October 18, 2004 Posted: 09:02 Moscow time (05:02 GMT)

MOSCOW - The Izhmash concern has agreed with India to start licensed production of Kalashnikov automatic rifles, the press department of the Russian Federal Agency for Industry reported citing director of the foreign economic activity department of the company Alexander Zavarzin.

According to Zavarzin, the bilateral project will start in 2005 and stipulates annual production of 100,000 Kalashnikov automatic rifles in India.

Russia is to supply the necessary equipment to India and some elements for the assembly of rifles. India is to develop its facilities and boost the share of rifle elements produced in it. The rifles are supposed to be use by the Indian Army and law enforcement authorities. India is not entitled to exports the rifles to their countries.

bluered12
04-16-2005, 11:13 AM
Can we get bigger pic. , the last one is to small to recognise details.

Thank you !


I´m sorry for the delay, but I`m quite busy at the moment.

Unfortunatelly I don´t have a better picture. My picture of the unknown gun is an enlarged part of a picture showing more confiscated weapons. I´ll upload this other picture during the next week.

lemontree
04-19-2005, 01:26 PM
At last I managed to get some free time. Here is a small essay on the INSAS, as promised. If I have left out any aspect, do indicate it so that I may address it.

INSAS
Information about the INSAS available in the media is a mix of pessimism and optimism, and none can be blamed for developing a bias either good or bad. I am attempting to dispel a few myths and inform readers about the Indian Small Arms Systems (INSAS).
Development of the INSAS concept
In the mid 80s the Indian Army had decided to switch over from the 7.62 mm NATO calibre to 5.56 mm NATO. It was also decided to switch over from the L1A1 to a more modern and lighter infantry rifle. In 1985, after the trials, the Aug Styr and the H&Ks G41 were short listed for final selection. Both these rifles are excellent weapons in their respective class and both the manufacturers offered transfer of technology and licenses production. But the Indian Army had the following observations for Aug Styr and G41:
Aug Styr
Pros:-
- Inter-changeable barrels for rifle, carbine and LMG.
- Common parts reduced logistics and simplified training of troops.
Cons:-
- Not an ideal infantry battle rifle (but suitable for SOF units).
The term “battle rifle” fits a weapon that has suitable stand off distance for bayonet fighting and the Aug Styr does not allow that due to its compact size. The butt end has to be strong enough to withstand punishment in hand-to-hand combat. The Aug Styr lacked these two quality requirements (QR).
G41
Pros:-
- The weapon fitted all the QRs for a battle rifle.
Cons:-
- The G41 did not offer anything new apart for 5.56 mm calibre. This role could be achieved in the L1A1s by conversion of these rifles from 7.62mm to 5.56mm.
- The G41 did not offer the inter-changeable components as offered by the Aug Styr.
Army HQ asked DRDO if the Aug Styrs’ capabilities could be achieved in a battle rifles design like the G41. It was a challenging task, as DRDO had no experience in development of small arms. Till then the organisation had only made copies of the L1A1 and L4, and a modified L1A1 (heavy barrelled auto) called 1C (for Mech units). It was not a matter of national pride but the development of a concept.
Due to lack of prior experience in rifle design and development, DRDO chose the simplest and proven design for the operating system. Hence, the AK-74 operating system was chosen, giving rise to statements that it is an AK74 copy. The commonality in major components had to be maintained for the rifle, LMG and carbine. The primary feature had be quick change of barrels in all three versions of the weapon system. Features of most successful rifles were incorporated to achieve the desired results. Design features of the M16, G3 and FN were used towards that effect.
After initial trails and errors DRDO produced prototypes of the rifle, LMG and carbine, these were tested and the Army kept pointing out deficiencies and recommended improvements. DRDO however, could not provide quick barrel change facility in the 3 weapon types. This was also one of the reasons for the delay in induction. Each type of weapon had some deficiencies that had to be cleared before being inducted into the 3rd largest army in the world.
INSAS 1B1 Rifle
The INSAS 1B1 rifle looks like an FN FNC on observation. Maximum efforts were put to clear all deficiencies of this weapon since it was the most crucial of the 3 weapons. The delay in induction of the 1B1 rifle forced the army to purchase 100,000 Romanian AKs to equip the COIN units, the non-commando battalions of the Parachute Regiment, and J&K Police during the mid 90s. At the same time captured AKs/ T-56 from militants were recycled (after refurbishment), and issued to police and para-military units as per requirement.
The INSAS rifle was under going user trials since 91-93 and ultimately was inducted in 1997 (13 yrs after initiation). The rifle saw active service in 1999 during the limited war in Kargil sector. The functioning was satisfactory and the users like the weapon. It fulfilled the requirements of a rugged and reliable infantry rifle. Minor complaints get referred to the Ordinance factory through the EME workshops and improvements are made.
It is pertinent to mention that contrary to reports in articles written (by journalists with little or no understanding of small arms), frontline units are using the weapon in operational areas.
INSAS LMG
The highlight of the INSAS LMG is the absence of the spare barrel that is common in most LMGs/ SAWs. This aspect reduces the strength of crew served weapons, eliminates dual role and increases the bayonet strength of the rifle section/ squad. The barrel of the LMG was supposed to withstand continuous firing without the requirement of change of barrel. This problem could only be solved in 2000/01. Prior to that the barrels bulged/ or burst during tests, when the barrels were subjected to continuous firing of hundreds of rounds in a given time frame.
The weapon was inducted 15 years after initiation of development. The problems have been rectified as far as the army is concerned. Improvements are being made, as it is an evolving process.
INSAS carbine
This has been to most trouble ****e element of the INSAS family that has not yet reached an acceptable level for induction in the army. Presently IMI of Israel is assisting in its development.
Its was thought that the A-7 the 5.56mm version of the AK that was being planned would fill the void of the carbine and assist in phasing out the Sterling 9 mm carbine. There is not much news about it hence it is only speculation.
One major QR not fulfilled by the INSAS rifle and LMG is the quick change of barrel like the Aug Styr. However, all the criticism related to the delay in 20 years for the INSAS to get inducted is unfounded. The M16A1 had a miserable record due to regular jamming and its reputation suffered. By the time the M16A2 came it was a considerable 20 years till the faults were rectified.
The AK 47 in its present avatar has been around for the past 55 years and still happens to be the most inaccurate rifle around (its ruggedness is unquestionable), and is the last choice for most armies. The PLA too kept is only as an SMG in its squads, and has developed the SKS into a decent T-81/87 battle rifle.

lemontree
04-19-2005, 01:34 PM
AFAIR AKM has MRBF of 18 000 rds, XM8 20 000 rds, SCAR have targetted MRBF of 15 000 rds and optimal 35 000 rds, L85A2 25 000rds.
An individual soldier fireds an average of 200 rounds of ammo per annum during training. In non combat units the average is lower.
So 200 rounds x 10 years = 2000 rounds
and 200 rds x 30 yrs = 6000 rounds.

The math shows that the INSAS MRBF is sufficient to last it for 30-40 years, by the end of which new rifles would be inducted. The barrels of the INSAS are in no way inferior as you make it to be.

brigadeotg
04-20-2005, 01:10 PM
lemon tree,
Good summary there..One of the most prevalent myths that abound today is that XYZ is being developed to satisfy national pride bla bla... Such ignorant and moronic statements betray a basic lack of knowledge of the unique conditions under which development of a system (be it small arms or otherwise..) is undertaken in India.

It is true that when INSAS was being first inducted in the late nineties, problems were found especially in high altitude conditions mainly brittle mags,barrel problems etc. These were progressively fixed over the years to the point that the SLR has now pushed down to the police, para-mil units etc and usage of the INSAS has become very common among the armed forces and the CI units as well.

Anyone knowledgeable about the IA should only look at their history in inducting weapons that do not satisfy the GSQR's. On a related note, one other reason the army does not like the Ak's for frontline troops is it's inaccuracy. The INSAS according to a few army types is very accurate compared to the AK's. The army does like the AK's in the CI environment, especially it's stopping power at close quarters.

BeltFedLMG
04-20-2005, 04:11 PM
On a related note, one other reason the army does not like the Ak's for frontline troops is it's inaccuracy. The INSAS according to a few army types is very accurate compared to the AK'

there are plenty of high quality ak (direct) variants that are actually capable of great accuracy - like 5,45; 5,56; 7,62x51 variations (polish beryl; russian 74m and 101; zastava arms m90, m77b1, ect.) and even such models in 7,62x39 like polish akm, russian ak103, and yugoslavian model m70b1.

7,62x39 is an excellent round, it does exactly what it was designed to do. i am not saying that it is best round or my prefered, i am simply just giving it the respect it deserves. battlefield pick-ups and/or low quality ak/akm variants (romanian, egyptian, chinese, and so on) are not known for the greatest accuracy potential;

brigadeotg
04-20-2005, 04:54 PM
These were progressively fixed over the years to the point that the SLR has now pushed down to the police, para-mil units etc and usage of the INSAS has become very common among the armed forces and the CI units as well.
brigadeotg,

Isn't the INSAS also inducted by the normal police forces? Here is a pic of Calcutta policeman with an Insas:
http://img59.exs.cx/img59/505/511717647gg.jpg

Raj,
It is true, some Police forces have gotten the INSAS namely J&K police (I think they get what they want and are pretty much better equipped than the police in the rest of the country), Delhi Police, police in NE states and the STF also I think. But if there is a general policy on distribution to all police forces, I am not aware of it. Most probably this is done on an adhoc basis but then again I am not aware of any consistent policy here.

History tells us that whenever newer weapon systems(Small arms) are inducted, the current inventory goes to the para-mil forces like RAF, CISF, BSF, ITBP, CRPF etc.. That might still be the case but I'm not sure if this true anymore.. at least in case of BSF, ITBP and CRPF. The latter 3 units (And others) serving in CI environments seem to be equipped exactly like their army counterparts. I have seen RAF,CISF, CRPF and BSF not serving in frontline units sporting the FN-FAL(SLR)

As far as the police are concerned, it's been my observation that those personnel who are involved in providing security to high-value targets and installations do have access to the latest weapons. But your normal "constable" would be hardpressed to carry anything more than dangerous than a .303 :D . In the south(where I come from) and all other states not including J&K,NE states a "lathi" is still the primary weapon and the .303 brought out once in a blumoon. I saw the .303 the first time I was in primary school and I still see it today..20 years later. :D

rajkhalsa
04-20-2005, 07:23 PM
For the benefit of those reading, lathi =
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040409/edit1.jpg

Doesn't look like much at first, but smacking someone over the head with one has tried and true stopping power :lol:

brigadeotg,
Thanks man. Are those .303s all vintage? Or are replicas in production? Do Indian police carry sidearms like pistols, or does it go: lathi charge -> rifle --> Rapid Action Force :D

lemontree
04-21-2005, 11:53 AM
lemon tree,
Good summary there..
Thanks.
I would also like to add that even though the carbine is facing problems, it is nothing new about its class of weapon. The M4 is facing just the same problems, but the weapon has been around for a while so its problems have been rectified.
http://www.armalite.com/library/faq/faq_list.htm#19

M4 Carbine Barrel Failures

Purpose: To provide concise information concerning the relationship between firing rate and malfunction and barrel rupture with the M4 Carbine.

Background: The M4 carbine suffers a poor reputation for excessive malfunction and barrel rupture. Both problems are tracible to excess heat due to high firing rates.

Facts:

Malfunction rate. We believe that the excessive malfunction rate of the M4 Carbine is due to physical imbalances in the mechanism itself, exacerbated by heat. Analysis of the problem requires a good understanding of the action of the cartridge case and...

It is true that when INSAS was being first inducted in the late nineties, problems were found especially in high altitude conditions mainly brittle mags,barrel problems etc.
All these problems were rectified in the early 90s. My unit had carried out user trials in 91-92, and had converted to the INSAS rifle by the end of 1997.

The army does like the AK's in the CI environment, especially it's stopping power at close quarters.
But the AK still does not compare to the stopping power of the 7.62x51mm L1A1 SLR.
The AK is prefered for COIN ops because one can spray use it like a carbine as most encounters are close range, in the Kashmir Valley, but in other sectors, the militants stay well away from the army units and carry out stand off attacks that lack efficacy.

oldsoak
04-21-2005, 12:33 PM
Does Ishapore still produce the .303 ?

lemontree
04-21-2005, 12:37 PM
Does Ishapore still produce the .303 ?

No it does not make the .303 any more. However, some amount of .303 ammunition is still made for the existing weapons.

brigadeotg
04-21-2005, 01:57 PM
All these problems were rectified in the early 90s. My unit had carried out user trials in 91-92, and had converted to the INSAS rifle by the end of 1997.
Lemontree,
I was specifically referring to problems at hi-altitude(Siachen etc) where they supposedly faced some problems with the magazines, barrel malfunction etc.. If what you say is true, then what problems were they referring to? It is definitely possible that I have wrong information, so any clarification you provide will help..



But the AK still does not compare to the stopping power of the 7.62x51mm L1A1 SLR.
The AK is prefered for COIN ops because one can spray use it like a carbine as most encounters are close range, in the Kashmir Valley, but in other sectors, the militants stay well away from the army units and carry out stand off attacks that lack efficacy.
Good information. Yes, the "hosing" or "spraying" as you refer to was what was the IA seemed to like in the AK's.

Also I take it that you are retired right now. Would it be possible to know the unit you served with? Also can you answer Raj's question about the distribution policy of the INSAS for the Police and para-military units(Both frontline and at peace stations)? Is there any defined policy here or is this done on an adhoc basis? Also DRDO was supposed to be testing a UBGL version of the INSAS. Have you had a chance to test this version at all?

Thanks

brigadeotg
04-21-2005, 02:10 PM
Additional information on INSAS development from DRDO, developers of the INSAS.

http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/jan2003/developments.htm

Modification of Passive Night Sight of INSAS Rifle
http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/jan2003/laseraid.gif
Based on the user trial reports requesting for modifications in INSAS, the Laser Science & Technology Centre (LASTEC), Delhi, has modified the Passive Night Sight for INSAS Rifle System to facilitate accurate aiming by soldiers at night and help them reducing collateral damages caused during counter-insurgency operations. The pistol grip has been modified to house an electro-mechanical device (fabricated by LASTEC) and special power supply connector. A sophisticted laser head has also been miniaturised and fitted onto the sight to improve the intensity of the laser spot at 50 m. An aluminium alloy laser head holder has been designed and fabricated to cater for maximum displacement (of 4 mm) in the lateral/vertical mode for lateral/vertical adjustments. The trigger has been integrated with the laser source and due to this the laser beam gets projected onto the target at the first pull of the trigger, and after firing when the trigger returns to the initial position, the system automatically switches off to minimise optical signature to conserve battery energy .The device has been successfully tested for 2000 operations. The modified rifles were up to the users satisfaction and were handed over to them on 27 November 2002.

http://www.drdo.com/pub/nl/sep2003/development.htm

INSAS 5.56 Ball Ammunition
The Authority for Holding Sealed Particulars (AHSP) of INSAS 5.56 Ball Ammunition from Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune; and Combustible Cartridge Case (CCC) for 125 mm FSAPDS Ammunition from High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) , Pune was handed over to DGQA on 3 August 2003. The Chief Guest Lt Gen MK Chari, DGQA, accepted the AHSP responsibility for both the stores from Shri AS Rajagopal, Director, ARDE and Dr Haridwar Singh, Director, HEMRL, respectively.

INSAS 5.56 Ball Ammunition has an accuracy and effectiveness comparable with NATO ammunition. The ammunition met all the user requirements and 900 million rounds have already been productionised. The Combustible Cartridge Case has proved successful and about 3 lakh rounds have already been productionised.

INSAS information from Feb 1998 (http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/feb98/armament.htm)

5.56 mm Family of Small Arms

For meeting the present day tactical requirement of the Indian Army of a light weight, compact and better fire power small arms, a family of Small Arms in 5.56 mm calibre (INSAS) and its family of ammunition have been developed. The family comprises Rifle (fixed and folding butt) effective up to 400 m, Light Machine Gun (fixed and foldable butt) effective up to 700 m, and Carbine effective up to 200 m range. The hallmark of the system is a large number of common components between the weapons of the family, all firing the same common ammunition. The ammunition with its superior ballistic design has better penetration capability than standard NATO rounds at ranges more than 500 m. The extensive use of plastic material for furniture items and heat resistant hand guard fabricated out of special composite material are the technologies exclusively developed for INSAS. The INSAS family of weapons is soldier friendly as it reduces logistics and simplifies training. The bulk production of weapon and ammunition has been successfully established at a number of Ordnance Factories. DRDO design has resulted into over Rs 5000 crores of production programme over a period of 10 years and this is a step forward towards self-reliance mission of the country.

D.E. Watters
04-21-2005, 03:35 PM
http://www.armalite.com/library/faq/faq_list.htm#19

M4 Carbine Barrel Failures

Background: The M4 carbine suffers a poor reputation for excessive malfunction and barrel rupture. Both problems are tracible to excess heat due to high firing rates.



Rock Island ****nal studied this back in 1996, and conducted tests to see what it would take to burst a barrel in a M4A1 and a M16A2 due to overheating. The report Fire to Destruction Test of 5.56mm M4A1 Carbine and M16A2 Rifle Barrels (http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/fulcrum_main.pl?database=ft_u2&searchid=111411139220001&keyfieldvalue=ADA317929&filename=%2Ffulcrum%2Fdata%2FTR_fulltext%2Fdoc%2FADA317929.pdf) indicates that it took 491 rounds fired non-stop, within 169 seconds, to burst the barrel of a M16A2. The M16A2 barrel reached a maximum temperature of 1599F. The M4A1 barrel lasted just over three and a half minutes for 596 rounds at a max temperature of 1639F. By any account, this is abusive handling, and most troops do not even carry that many rounds into combat with them.

lemontree
04-23-2005, 01:57 AM
Lemontree,
I was specifically referring to problems at hi-altitude(Siachen etc) where they supposedly faced some problems with the magazines, barrel malfunction etc.. If what you say is true, then what problems were they referring to? It is definitely possible that I have wrong information, so any clarification you provide will help..
These problems of barrel malfunction that were reported, were for the LMG that were being tested.



Also I take it that you are retired right now. Would it be possible to know the unit you served with? Also can you answer Raj's question about the distribution policy of the INSAS for the Police and para-military units(Both frontline and at peace stations)? Is there any defined policy here or is this done on an adhoc basis? Also DRDO was supposed to be testing a UBGL version of the INSAS. Have you had a chance to test this version at all?
Thanks
- I'm not a retired "oldie" :D but I took release after completeion of my short service commission.
- I was commissioned in the Sikh Light Infantry.
- INSAS is currently being distributed as per the following priority:-
- Army, and para-military units.
- State police armed battalions in insurgency hit areas.
- Supply to specific State police units as per demand by them, these have to currently absorb the SLRs of the army and para-military units.
- INSAS does not have UBGL but barrel launched grenades. We did not test them.
- UBGLs are also being tested due to better accuracy.

lemontree
04-23-2005, 02:02 AM
Rock Island ****nal studied this back in 1996, and conducted tests to see what it would take to burst a barrel in a M4A1 and a M16A2 due to overheating. The report Fire to Destruction Test of 5.56mm M4A1 Carbine and M16A2 Rifle Barrels (http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/fulcrum_main.pl?database=ft_u2&searchid=111411139220001&keyfieldvalue=ADA317929&filename=%2Ffulcrum%2Fdata%2FTR_fulltext%2Fdoc%2FADA317929.pdf) indicates that it took 491 rounds fired non-stop, within 169 seconds, to burst the barrel of a M16A2. The M16A2 barrel reached a maximum temperature of 1599F. The M4A1 barrel lasted just over three and a half minutes for 596 rounds at a max temperature of 1639F. By any account, this is abusive handling, and most troops do not even carry that many rounds into combat with them.
That is quite true for all weapons, I was just trying to show REMOV that all weapons have had problems during their development, and the INSAS carbine is no exception, since it was developed without prior experience in rifle/ carbine R&D.

brigadeotg
04-23-2005, 04:27 PM
Lemontree,
I was specifically referring to problems at hi-altitude(Siachen etc) where they supposedly faced some problems with the magazines, barrel malfunction etc.. If what you say is true, then what problems were they referring to? It is definitely possible that I have wrong information, so any clarification you provide will help..
These problems of barrel malfunction that were reported, were for the LMG that were being tested.



Also I take it that you are retired right now. Would it be possible to know the unit you served with? Also can you answer Raj's question about the distribution policy of the INSAS for the Police and para-military units(Both frontline and at peace stations)? Is there any defined policy here or is this done on an adhoc basis? Also DRDO was supposed to be testing a UBGL version of the INSAS. Have you had a chance to test this version at all?
Thanks
- I'm not a retired "oldie" :D but I took release after completeion of my short service commission.
- I was commissioned in the Sikh Light Infantry.
- INSAS is currently being distributed as per the following priority:-
- Army, and para-military units.
- State police armed battalions in insurgency hit areas.
- Supply to specific State police units as per demand by them, these have to currently absorb the SLRs of the army and para-military units.
- INSAS does not have UBGL but barrel launched grenades. We did not test them.
- UBGLs are also being tested due to better accuracy.

lemontree,
Thanks for the clarification. You mention that UBGL's are being tested for better accuracy.. What UBGL's are these? Is this part of the INSAS family or is this something different? Also did you get a chance to serve in either Kargil/Siachen etc?

p.s: I did not mean to convey the impression that you retired at 58 :D Sorry abt that! I assumed that you got out after your SSC.

lemontree
04-24-2005, 12:50 PM
You mention that UBGL's are being tested for better accuracy..

What UBGL's are these? Is this part of the INSAS family or is this something different?
These would be the GP-25 40mm (Russian or Romanian), UBGLs. (w.r.t The Ad hoc AKs that were purchased from Romania in 1995.) The Para (non-cdo) units had these and the user experience with was quite satisfactory compared to the older HE36 barrel launched grenades. Now since the rifle grenades planned for the INSAS were mostly NATO design (probably Belgian/British), and since they have'nt materialised it means that either TOT is not available or cost is higher.

These UBGLs are not part of INSAS family.


Also did you get a chance to serve in either Kargil/Siachen etc?
My are of ops was Punch, Surankote and south Udhampur.


p.s: I did not mean to convey the impression that you retired at 58 :D Sorry abt that! I assumed that you got out after your SSC.
Its Ok.

rajkhalsa
05-17-2005, 03:05 PM
Pic and some information from Indian MoD's 04-05 Annual Report

http://img272.echo.cx/img272/6706/18dj.jpg
^ Rifle 5.56mm Insas Excalibur

Also (p. 74)
Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune has also developed a under barrel grenade launcher (UBGL) compatible with rifle 5.56 mm INSAS and AK- 47. Based on the performance, the user has recommended its introduction into Service.

REMOV
08-28-2005, 04:04 PM
*******, Kathmandu :The Nepali army said on Friday faulty Indian assault rifles were partly responsible for its heavy death toll in a gun battle with Maoist rebels as troops hunted for 75 soldiers still missing after the fighting.

Forty-three soldiers and a civilian were killed when hundreds of rebels attacked an army base in the remote Kalikot district, 600 kilometre from the capital, Kathmandu, late on Sunday.

The Maoists, fighting to topple Nepal’s monarchy and establish communist rule, say they captured 52 soldiers after the raid, a claim rejected by the army.

Army spokesman brigadier-general Dipak Gurung said the Indian-manufactured INSAS rifles malfunctioned during the fighting which continued for about 10 hours.

‘Soldiers complained that the INSAS rifles did not function properly during the fighting which lasted for a long time,’ Gurung told a news conference when asked why the army death toll was high.

‘May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned,’ he said.

India is a key military supplier to the poorly equipped Nepali army. But New Delhi suspended arms supplies six months ago after the king’s power grab to press the monarch to restore multi-party democracy and civil liberties.

Meanwhile, a state-run Indian arms manufacturer on Saturday rejected a complaint by Nepal that it supplied the kingdom faulty assault rifles which led to heavy losses in a gunbattle with Maoist rebels this month.

An official of the Rifle Factory Icchapore said the guns may have failed because of poor maintenance by the Nepali army which lost 42 soldiers in the fighting in the west of the country last weekend. Another 75 soldiers remain missing.

‘The rifles are war-tested and widely used by our forces in counter-insurgency operations,’ said PK Agarwal, additional general manager of the factory in the eastern Indian state of West Bengal.


Row over rifles: India rebuts Nepal’s charge
From Sudeshna Sarkar
DH News Service Kathmandu:
An Indian embassy statement said the rifles have been used effectively in the most extreme conditions of weather and also in the Kargil conflict.

Stung by the Nepalese army blaming its punishing reverses on the India-made INSAS assault rifles, the Indian Embassy in Kathmandu issued a statement on Saturday, despite it being the start of a three-day holiday, refuting the allegation and casting doubts on the Royal Nepalese Army’s capability.

The statement came after the Royal Nepalese Army held a media briefing in Kathmandu on Friday on the debacle suffered by the army in Pili village in midwestern Kalikot district where an army contingent deployed to build a key highway came under Maoist attack last Sunday, where they lost 43 of their men and a civilian contractor, according to the army.

The communist guerrillas said they had lost 26 of their men and taken 60 soldiers captive. Brigadier-general Dipak Gurung, spokesman of the Royal Nepalese Army, created a future when he blamed the high casualties on malfunctioning INSAS rifles, given by India on a 70 per cent subsidy, to fight the escalating insurgency. “If we had better weapons, the results would have been better,” Gurung said, adding the army was conducting an inquiry into soldiers’ allegations that the rifles became hot after one to two hours and functioned only after they were allowed to cool down.

In the midst of its preparations to celebrate the Indian Independence Say on Monday, the Indian Embassy in Kathmandu issued a decided rebuff, saying it had seen reports, quoting the Royal Nepalese Army spokesman on the INSAS rifles as being “sub-standard”.

“The INSAS has been the basic weapon of the more than a million-strong Indian Army since 1995 and is also extensively used by the Indian paramilitary forces,” the embassy said.

“INSAS rifles have been used, without any complaint, in the most extreme conditions of weather and combat in the insurgency affected regions of India and also in the conflict in Kargil.”

The embassy also noted that last year too the Royal Nepalese Army had raised a complaint about the INSAS rifles. “A technical army team from India attended to the complaints by imparting basic training on its correct usage and also subjected the weapon to a punishing routine to prove its ruggedness and accuracy,” the embassy statement said.

“Our extensive experience of conflict situations has taught us that success does not depend on the weapon alone. If the Royal Nepalese is of the view that its understanding of this weapon is still incomplete, then the Government of India will be happy to again make arrangements to address their doubts.”

India halted its supply of the INSAS rifles since February 1 this year when King Gyanendra sacked the government of prime minister Sher Bahadur Deuba and seized power with the help of the army. Under the new government, there has been several instances of allegations against New Delhi by the RNA, followed by rebuttals by the embassy.


RAJAT PANDIT, TIMES NEWS NETWORK (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1203672.cms) THURSDAY, AUGUST 18, 2005

NEW DELHI: The Army feels the Royal Nepalese Army (RNA) is simply talking through its hat when it blames the Indian INSAS assault rifles for the reverses it is suffering against the Maoists in the landlocked kingdom.

RNA’s criticism about what it calls "sub-standard" INSAS rifles has more do with "politics" than anything else, in keeping with Nepal’s strategy to play on Indian fears that it could turn to a third country like China or Pakistan for arms supplies.

The 1.13-million-strong Indian Army, the third largest in the world, should know about the 5.56 mm INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) rifles since it has inducted around five lakh of them since 1997-98. With an "effective 400-metre range" and capable of being fired either in single shots or three-round bursts, INSAS rifles have replaced the cumbersome 7.62 mm SLR (self-loading rifle) as the standard weapon for all infantry battalions.

"We are using INSAS rifles in counter-insurgency operations in extreme terrains ranging from Jammu and Kashmir to the North-East on a daily basis. If we can use them successfully in much more intense operations, there is no reason that RNA cannot," said a senior officer.

Quipped another, "RNA needs to be trained to handle the rifles better."

The Army is ready to train RNA once again on the "correct usage" of INSAS rifles, like it did in 2004. RNA soldiers are neglecting to maintain the rifles properly. INSAS rifles did have teething problems in the initial phases. There were, for instance, complaints of "cold arrest" and breakage and cracking of components, particularly the semi-transparent bullet magazines, in high-altitude areas like Kargil and Siachen

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/4475/insasmaoistrebels8on.jpg
Maoist rebels with some INSAS assault rifle

rajkhalsa
08-28-2005, 07:20 PM
Already been posted and discussed here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57036

General concensus was: not the fault of INSAS design/manufacture, but the in the useage of the rifle by the RNA

rajkhalsa
08-30-2005, 05:17 PM
Hey lemontree, brigadeotg

Check this out:
http://img.jagran.com/jagranimage/pimages/12augk105.jpg

Pic of Indian state policeman in northeast. Holding all-black INSAS?

brigadeotg
08-30-2005, 05:27 PM
Hey lemontree, brigadeotg

Pic of Indian state policeman in northeast. Holding all-black INSAS?
Raj,
That is the FN-FAL now being handed down to Police and Para-mil forces.

rajkhalsa
08-30-2005, 06:02 PM
*smacks head*

Your're right. I should stop looking at pics with my monitor half dimmed :oops:

Slater
08-30-2005, 08:16 PM
That looks like a FAL.

VLMalsawma
02-11-2006, 11:17 AM
Does any one see the picture of a-7 assault rifle made by india?

mandeep_619
03-08-2008, 04:11 PM
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE1/insas2dotjpg
Insas assult rifle original with wood

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/rajinscope2dotjpg
insas mark 2 with carbon fiber


Insas Excalibur
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/23-RIFLE-EXCALIBUR-5.56MMdotjpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9285/bulpupinsasbg2dotgif (http://imageshack.us/)

insas bullpup
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462/16022008012di8dotjpg (http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://www.indiandefenceforum.com/index.php/topic,10274.0.html)
minsas
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/29674-1/DSC00072dotJPG
msmc
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3091/insas2carbine1au1dotjpg
not sure about this one

Tony Williams
03-16-2008, 02:34 AM
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462/16022008012di8dotjpg[/URL]
minsas

Any more info yet available about this or its 5.56x30 ammo?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

mandeep_619
03-17-2008, 07:03 PM
http://i.infoplease.com/images/mindiadotgif
I know this forum is on the insas but i am going to go off topic for a minute and say since this is still a millitary forum and why the hell is there a some sort of border line of india going thru pakistan and bordering afghanistan i have seen this a few times and not been able to get info so this is a military forum and this probaly a border disputer including the military can anybody get some info

mandeep_619
03-17-2008, 07:29 PM
Any more info yet available about this or its 5.56x30 ammo?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

**note** this site still shows the older version of the rifle mark 1(wooden varient)the one you have just seen has just entered service in, 2007(not sure probally earlier ) notice the similarities between mark 1 mark 2

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/24.htm

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/24-CARBINE-5.56-MM-MINSASdotjpg
mark1 wooden
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/jatt2ooo/3200360156dotjpg
mark 1 ( fiber glass/metal)
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8462/16022008012di8dotjpg
minsas(latest version)
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4408/16022008009qn1dotjpg
a very clear picture of the excalibur and on the top is the kalantak07
close up of kalatak
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7955/16022008010uv5dotjpg

Tony Williams
03-18-2008, 03:28 AM
Thanks - what about the ammo? Is it made just by shortening the 5.56x45?

The bullet weight + muzzle velocity figures I have seen do not look that good.

mandeep_619
03-18-2008, 06:39 PM
AMMO is 5.56x30

the original insas came in the early 1990's with over 12 years of devolopment i am sure that they newer minsas has better stats plus look at the site those stats are for the the mk1 which is being phased out already in service with the paramilitary services

mandeep_619
03-22-2008, 11:31 AM
no need to answer about the india map above it is the pakistan held kashmir

sayareakd
06-16-2008, 09:58 AM
hay mandeep_619 some of the pics posted by you have been taken by me... including one with close up of kalatak.......... which was offered to IA by OFB...........p-)

was even allowed to lift and inspect MSMC by DRDO guys.... it has entered production as per the information received at Exp...... this will soon be used for anti terrorist operations.... :)

vande matrum
08-14-2009, 08:58 PM
http://i.infoplease.com/images/mindiadotgif
I know this forum is on the insas but i am going to go off topic for a minute and say since this is still a millitary forum and why the hell is there a some sort of border line of india going thru pakistan and bordering afghanistan i have seen this a few times and not been able to get info so this is a military forum and this probaly a border disputer including the military can anybody get some info

my friend that is POK (pakistan occupied kashmir). pakistan illegally occupied that part of kashmir and is under the control of pakistan. but still it is a part of india and that is the international border line.

vande matrum
08-14-2009, 09:14 PM
sorry for going off the topic. will not happen again. dude there was a biggest clue right on th picture:)

have a nice day.

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY

Jeffb
07-17-2010, 11:14 AM
Is there any more info/pics of the INSAS Bullpup.

Cheers

Jeff

Jµµso
08-15-2010, 02:56 PM
INSAS artile. http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131

Ominae
03-14-2014, 03:54 PM
I got a question regarding the 1B1 and 1B2 rifles manufactured by OFB in India since there is a lack of info in terms of when they were made and what changes were present.

Thanks. I'm trying to learn about these variants aside from the solid and folding buttstock versions.

marius
03-15-2014, 04:48 PM
Not precisely what you are looking for, still interesting however http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?39566-India-s-INSAS-rifle

Ominae
03-17-2014, 03:47 AM
Found out some answers in http://defenceforumindia.com.

I'm not sure on whether the newer INSAS IB1 assault rifles were created in 2010 or in 2011/12.

Ominae
03-17-2014, 08:15 AM
I found some good answers that I answered my question regarding the INSAS B (or 1B, can't tell) --> INSAS 1B1

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/43826-insas-rifle-lmg-carbine-2.html

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/43826-insas-rifle-lmg-carbine-4.html

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/43826-insas-rifle-lmg-carbine-8.html

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/43826-insas-rifle-lmg-carbine-28.html

Like I said, I have no idea on when the 1B1 (At least the ones with black furniture) came into service to replace the original ones at least back in 1999. I don't know when the old 1B1 came into service, but I got some word that it was in 2003.

Kunal Biswas
03-17-2014, 01:59 PM
Black furniture INSAS exsisted since 2002, But new INSAS in black are being issued to Infantry units in Indian Army only after 2009 ..

These INSAS in black are different than previous Black and Orange once, In force these are often call ' Improved ' 1B1 ..

I think you got most of your answers from DFI ..


Like I said, I have no idea on when the 1B1 (At least the ones with black furniture) came into service to replace the original ones at least back in 1999. I don't know when the old 1B1 came into service, but I got some word that it was in 2003.

Ominae
03-18-2014, 02:28 AM
Thanks mate. I just wish someone had this kind of info so that anyone interested in learning about the INSAS history can't be confused.

Can the newer INSAS rifles (with black furniture) be outfitted with folding stocks?

Randy M
03-18-2014, 02:34 AM
http://i.imgur.com/XAA48Mv.jpg?2?9596

INSAS

http://i.imgur.com/mJ2F6ob.jpg?1?7400

LMG

http://i.imgur.com/rKv59co.jpg?1?4003
http://imageshack.com/a/img28/5664/8zjv.jpg

EX.-INSAS

http://i.imgur.com/j1O7QDB.jpg?1?6043
http://i.imgur.com/dLUPeUD.jpg?2?8998

INSAS Carbine - Kalantak


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yQj06vPT7z0/T3yxt_sbJII/AAAAAAAABJw/d-UcVpk04U8/s1600/JVPC-1.jpg

MSMC

http://i.imgur.com/SJo2sit.jpg?1?7679
http://i.imgur.com/7rlEIaJ.jpg?1

AMOGH - Micro-INSAS

http://i.imgur.com/hOj6lWb.gif?1

INSAS Bullpup

INSAS and it's offshots

The production of the INSAS is closing. The million or so INSASs will make it to Indian police, etc.

Randy M
03-18-2014, 02:44 AM
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/196/rl35.jpg

Makers of INSAS made a successor prototype, but may not make it as the standard rifle.

Kunal Biswas
03-18-2014, 03:18 AM
Yes, They can be fitted with folding stocks, 1B1 can also be fitted with AK`s stocks without any modification ..

http://i.imgur.com/XAA48Mv.jpg?2?9596


Can the newer INSAS rifles (with black furniture) be outfitted with folding stocks?

Ominae
03-18-2014, 06:38 AM
Thanks for the help, Kunal. Nice INSAS IB1 pics, makes some awesome Ipad Mini wallpapers.

@Randy

- I remember seeing some news on the MCIWS. Lot of people are wondering if this'll really succeed the INSAS in the Indian military.