UK Defence review 2003/4 (options for treasury)

[marktigger]

there are loads of rumours abounding about the awaited defence review 2003. And I'm sure much more infighting and in light of recent events retinking going on at head office. Rumours of possibly the loss of as many as 6 batalions, Cuts in the numbers of Challengers, AS90's re roleing of various units etc. The cutting of programmes and the demands of the treasury for peace dividen from Northern Ireland. Added to which it looks like the treasury hasn't coughed up the cash for Iraq and the defence budget has a huge hole in it. So where does the UK armed forces go from here are we about to become UKDF? or will our forces be so small that we Have to join the euro army in order to be able to defend our country?........Discuss

[martinexsquaddie]

its going to be a smaller but better resourced \Army using technology to do more with less rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Sabre]

The politicians and penny-pinchers in the MoD will continue as usual to make the British Armed Forces do more with less.
They don't want to spend the money, but neither do they wish to step away from Britain's international position of 'hitting above our weight'. For the same reason, we will never really be part of a 'Euro army' beyond contributing a mobile force, such as 16 AAB, to any 'Euro Operations'.

At the moment, the MoD is larger than the army (which itself is soon to be too small to be called an army) and I doubt that any cuts in manpower would be made in the MoD before the Army.

By stretching our chronically underfunded and undermanned forces, the government is relying on the one greatest feature of our forces; the character of our personnel. It is only due to the professionalism and flexibility of our troops that successive UK governments have gotten away with both a cut in defence spending and meeting international commitments. The Three-Year operational cycle is impossible to adhere to as it is interrupted anytime a large deployment is needed, or generally to cover our world wide long term operations. The result of this is that many troops rarely see home inside of that three years (despite being supposed to spend two of them training and 'resting') and that there is an over-reliance on TA troops. This leads to some junior officers and soldiers in the regulars effectively taking the opinion of "F*** this for a game of soldiers!" and leave the army. In the TA, the results are often poor civvy job prospects and unemployment. This manpower drain then feeds back into the viscious circle.

We can't keep going like this, sooner or later the renound character of our troops will not be able to cope, and neither will the logistitians.

:(

[Roger Rabbit]

After much complaining by the British squaddies its being decieded to save money and replace the SA80 with a pointy stick and the LSW with a slightly larger pointy stick. Green Peace has yet to complain about the amount of wood being used in the sticks as the MOD has found a way to save even more money and make them out of paper. Recent reports show the paper pointy sticks do not function well in wet or damp environments.

[marktigger]

well according to the Sunday telegraph there is going to be 10 bns cut including the Royal Scots & The Black watch. Interesting one is 1 Bn of the Royal Irish Regiment does that mean that the 3 home service bns are to go and the GS bn or is there to be 2 additional GS bns of the Royal Irish. My feeling is the Royal Irish will be cut completley. The excuse for the cuts is a peace dividen with the end of the Troubles in northern Ireland.

Black Watch and Royal Scots are among ten regiments to be axed in cull of Army
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 23/11/2003)


Up to 10 of the Army's most famous regiments - including the illustrious Royal Scots and the Black Watch - are to be disbanded in the most radical post-war reorganisation of Britain's fighting forces.

More than 9,000 soldiers face redundancy following the withdrawal of troops from Northern Ireland, a process that must be completed by April 2005.

As well as the Royal Scots and the Black Watch, other regiments to be disbanded include the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire and one battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment.

At least one of the two battalions of Gurkhas will also be cut after senior officers decided that it would be politically unacceptable for British units to be disbanded while allowing two battalions of foreign troops to remain.

Defence chiefs have decided not to amalgamate units as an alternative to cuts and it is understood that all infantry units - including the Foot Guards and the Parachute Regiment - could lose battalions if they do not remain at full strength.

The Government will "sell" the policy to the public as part of the "Northern Ireland peace dividend" which will see troop levels in Ulster reduced from 14,500 to 5,000, according to a senior defence official.

Details of the cuts provoked disbelief and anger last night from MPs and former senior Army officers who said that cutting the strength of the infantry would add to the pressure on an already over-stretched Army.

Nicholas Soames, the shadow defence secretary, said: "This is an absolute disgrace. There are no circumstances that would merit a cut to the infantry at a time when the world has never seemed more dangerous."

Patrick Mercer, the Tory spokesman for homeland security and a former infantry commanding officer, said: "Any cuts in the manpower of the Army are sheer madness. Trying to dress it up as a peace dividend is hugely irresponsible and dishonest."

Maj Gen Peter Curry, a former Deputy Adjutant General, who retired last year, said: "If this is true then it is extremely unwise. The Army is going through a period of considerable overstretch and the infantry has never been more in demand. Whichever operation you look at in the recent past the infantry role has been fundamental."

It is understood that the cuts will be achieved by natural wastage and allowing soldiers to transfer to other units, providing vacancies are available. Otherwise troops will be made redundant.

Under the Joint Declaration signed by the British and Irish governments, withdrawal of soldiers from Ulster is supposed to begin by the end of 2003 and the first disbandment of regiments could start within 12 months.

A senior official employed by the Ministry of Defence said: "By April 2005 the process of normalisation in Ulster will be complete. That means that the Army will have a surplus of 8,000 troops whose only real role over the last 30 years was to serve in Ulster. That role has now come to an end. Sadly there is no other option than to disband those units. It would be nice to keep them but the Treasury will not allow us that luxury.

"The Royal Scots is a very fine regiment but, militarily, it is not a viable force because it is under strength. It can only deploy on operations if it is significantly reinforced by other units."

Infantry regiments should have about 650 troops when they are at full strength but many battalions, especially those in the Scottish Division, have consistently failed to achieve this. This means they can only be deployed on operations when they are reinforced by other regiments, a problem defence chiefs are determined to eradicate.

The Royal Scots, which was formed in 1633, is the Army's oldest regiment. In the past 10 years it has struggled to recruit and retain soldiers and has been forced to rely on volunteers from the Commonwealth.

The Black Watch, which describes itself as Scotland's "premier regiment", has served the British crown for over 250 years. Its Colonel-in-Chief from 1937 until her death last year was the Queen Mother, who lost a brother and a cousin during service with the regiment on the Western Front in the First World War.

The King's Own Scottish Borderers only just escaped from being amalgamated with the Royal Scots in the early 1990s but, like most Scottish regiments, has struggled to keep up numbers.
External links

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[Roger Rabbit]

Ok so lets just say that these troops leave Northern Ireland. Then where do the troops come from if the troop levels in N.I. need to be raised? What about sending the spare troops from Northern Ireland to other places around the world where they are needed? Why is it that the government finds it necessary to cut the number of troops when its only just been made clear that the British Army is over stretched as it it.

[marktigger]

because the treasury are trying to balance the books and the MOD is always willing to give them back money. Added to that the army wasted all that money in afganistan and iraq the treasury wants its pound of flesh.

If they're going to cut the numbers of gurkhas will UK born nationals be retained before fijians when it comes to redundancies?

[Roger Rabbit]

Afghanistan 'out of control'


A soldier guards people queuing at the UN office in Kabul
Britain should be doing more to restore law and order to Afghanistan, the government has been warned.
Large swathes of the country are under the control of warlords where people live under the daily threat of violence, said Christian Aid.

The charity, which is running aid projects in the country, wrote to Foreign Secretary Jack Straw warning him conditions were only getting worse.

Nato takes command of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in the capital Kabul on Monday, but that security should be extended to the whole of the nation, says the charity.

And the push for a change in Nato and United Nations policy towards the war torn country should come from Britain, it adds.

Growing criminality is further compounding the insecurity felt by the Afghan population

Martin Kyndt
Christian Aid

"As we are sure you are aware, the security situation in Afghanistan has shown a marked deterioration in recent months," said the letter, which was backed by other aid agencies.

Only a properly trained Afghan National Army and police force can bring stability and security but they are years away, the agencies say.

"In the meantime, radical elements seek to undermine both the transitional government and the reconstruction process," the letter states.

"In addition, local struggles for power, fuelled in some areas by the opium trade, are leading to a growing fragmentation of the country.

Robberies

"While efforts to create a national army, police force and judiciary remain at an embryonic stage, the ongoing climate of impunity means that there is no protection for the individual from the arbitrary use of power.

"Growing criminality is further compounding the insecurity felt by the Afghan population; there are numerous examples of robberies, thefts and assaults even in (supposedly) one of the most secure regions, Herat."

The multinational Nato force should be in place before the next Loya Jirga gathering of tribal chiefs discusses a constitution in October, according to the agencies.

The letter was signed by Martin Kyndt, Christian Aid's acting director, along with AfghanAid's UK director Fraser Mackay, Care International UK's programme director Raja Jarrah, Ken Caldwell of Save the Children and TearFund's Graham Fairburn.


Source:BBC

Those N.I. troops could be put to good use as opposed to being disbanded.

[marktigger]

as could the 3bns of Royal Irish HS who will be made redundant alot of them could be used in IS roles anywhere in the world if they were given new contracts. Same goes for all the RUC guys being laid off

[Roger Rabbit]

Why is it that only money seems to matter to the MOD and the Government. Surely they can see theres no point in having an Army if it is ill equipped and doesn't have enough troops to make an impact anywhere.