US Troops Throats Cut In Iraq

[wholagun]

US troops 'throats cut' in Iraq


Two US soldiers have been killed in Iraq's city of Mosul after attackers slit their throats, witnesses say.
A spokesman for the US 101st Airborne Division in Mosul confirmed the deaths, without giving any further details.

In a separate attack, a top Iraqi police officer in charge of security for Mosul's oil installations was gunned down in Iraq's northern city.

The attacks come a day after at least 18 people were killed in car bombings of police stations north of Baghdad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3230690.stm

[Argyll]

How on earth can 2 guys get seperated from their patrol?
Where the hell was the security,if they were mingling down the town?If they were not on duty then should the Forces be allowed to leave barracks?
R.I.P and condolences to the families and friends :(

[Roger Rabbit]

Any more info on this? I'm guessing theres going to be a response by the US military, shooting soldiers is one thing, cutting throats is another.

[duck]

What's the big difference? Both result in a painful death or injury.

[Roger Rabbit]

The difference is in the public eye. Throat cutting is far more personal than shooting someone. I'll give you an example.

If a guy walks up to an old lady and takes a purse and shoots her then there is apublic outrage. Ir a guy walks up to an old lady and takes her purse and then cuts her throat. Well you see the difference.

Throat cutting tends to result in death as opposed to injury. Its more of a mutilation thing. Less civilised. When i find the right words to explain it better then i will.

[duck]

Technology just takes away the personal aspect of warfare. The killing and destruction remains the same.

[Herrmannek]

They were in civil car and clothes [ EDIT ] I didnt read notice carefully, nooone wrote what they were wearing at the time, but they were riding in the civil car I as wrote ) [/EDIT] , they were attacked when waiting for green light our newspapers wrote.

[Argyll]

That makes it's worse!!!!
A total lack of security,and they paid with their lives,someone has given the attackers some intel!
I'll also tell you this much,a lot of those police are ex regime members,especially the secret police,nobody knew who they were,and I fear they could turn up in the respected Police,where they can pass on info to their controllers,anyone who thinks this is BS,then you never heard of Counter Intel,or infiltartions etc,it happens in all walks of life!So it is perfectly feasable to happen in Iraq!

[Steve Andrews]

Yes, being shot is much nicer.

[Roger Rabbit]

I'm not to sure of the whole teaching the Iraqi's how to shoot straight either. They recruited far too many people into the Police too quickly. Still things might be worse if there was no Iraqi police force and security was conducted just by the Coalition forces.

[California Joe]

Joy riding in a combat zone or what? Jesus. Their CO needs his ass chewed.

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

Bunch of savages...


By MARIAM FAM, Associated Press Writer

MOSUL, Iraq - Gunmen killed two American soldiers driving through this northern Iraqi city Sunday, and then a crowd swarmed the scene, looting the soldiers' vehicle and pummeling their bodies, witnesses said. Another soldier was killed in a roadside bombing north of Baghdad.



Elsewhere, three American civilian contractors were wounded in an explosion in the northern oil center of Kirkuk. First reports said the blast was from a mortar, but U.S. Lt. Col. Matt Croke said officials later concluded it was from a bomb.


The 101st Airborne Division said its soldiers in Mosul were shot while driving between U.S. garrisons. Several witnesses also said the soldiers were shot during the attack in the Ras al-Jadda district, though earlier reports by witnesses said assailants slit the soldiers' throats.


Bahaa Jassim, a teenager, said the soldiers' vehicle crashed into a wall after the shooting. Several dozen passers-by then descended on the wreckage, looting the car of weapons and the soldiers' backpacks.


After the soldiers' bodies fell into the street, the crowd pummeled them with concrete blocks, Jassim said.


A U.S. patrol then arrived and cordoned off the area, he said.


At a Sunday news conference, a U.S. military official would not discuss the circumstances surrounding the Mosul deaths.


"It is our policy that we do not go into specific details on injuries sustained by soldiers," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the U.S. military deputy director for operations. "We're not going to get ghoulish about this."


Mosul has seen increasing anti-occupation violence after months of relative quiet. Iraq (news - web sites)'s third-largest city, it lies between the so-called "Sunni Triangle" where attacks on American forces have been intense and the northern Kurdish-dominated areas where support of the U.S. is higher.


A 4th Infantry Division soldier was killed Sunday and two others were wounded when a roadside bomb exploded in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, the military said.


Kimmitt also said the Iraqi chief of police in Latifiyah, about 20 miles south of Baghdad, and two officers were killed Sunday when the car they were riding in was attacked by small-arms fire.


U.S. officials have warned of more attacks against coalition forces as the Islamic holy month of Ramadan nears its end Tuesday.


In political developments, an Iraqi-American woman and veteran lobbyist, Rend Rahim Francke, was chosen as Iraq's ambassador to the United States.


U.S. officials have warned of more attacks against coalition forces as the Islamic holy month of Ramadan nears its end Tuesday.


The blast in Kirkuk, 150 miles north of Baghdad, occurred overnight on the compound of the National Oil Co. Three American employees of the U.S. firm Kellogg Brown & Root suffered facial cuts from flying glass, Croke said.


On Friday, insurgents rocketed the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad, where many KBR employees and international journalists stay. One civilian was wounded.


"We all know that Americans are being threatened," Croke said.





But Kimmitt said the coalition was "not worried in the least" by the continuing attacks on its forces.

"We have nothing at this point that causes us to be concerned," he said. "This is an enemy that cannot defeat us militarily."

In Samara, about 75 miles north of Baghdad, six U.S. Apache helicopter gunships blasted marshland after four rocket-propelled grenades were fired at the American military garrison at the city's northern entrance, Iraqi police said. One Iraqi passer-by was killed in the air attack.

Also Sunday, a spokeswoman with Iraq's Governing Council said the body appointed Francke — an Iraqi-American woman and veteran lobbyist — as ambassador to the United States.

Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari announced the appointment Sunday. Francke led the Iraq Foundation, a Washington-based pro-democracy group, and has helped in post-Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) government planning.

She was born in Baghdad but has not lived here full-time in more than 30 years. She became a U.S. citizen in 1987.

"I will sincerely express the ambitions of the Iraqi people and ... take care of the Iraqi community in the United States, which amounts to some 400,000 people," Francke said. "The Iraqi Embassy used to be a source of fear for this community, rather than being a place to render services."

The appointment will renew diplomatic ties between Washington and Baghdad 13 years after they were severed in 1990 when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Discussions about appointing an envoy came after the Bush administration and the U.S.-appointed Governing Council agreed to hand over power to a new, transitional Iraqi government by June 30.

The council also will soon appoint a replacement for a member assassinated two months ago, council member Mahmoud Othman said. Aquila al-Hashimi, a Shiite Muslim member of the 25-seat group, was mortally wounded Sept. 20, the highest-ranking Iraqi official killed by suspected Saddam loyalists.

Her replacement is expected to be a Shiite Muslim since the council, installed July 13, has been divided proportionally between Iraq's different sects and ethnic groups: 13 Shiite Arabs, five Kurds, five Sunni Arabs, one Christian and one ethnic Turk.

Elsewhere, an Iraqi police colonel in charge of protecting oil installations was assassinated in northern Iraq, part of what appeared to be an insurgent campaign against U.S.-backed security forces.

Col. Abdul-Salam Qanbar, who oversaw police in Mosul, was fatally shot Saturday evening while heading to a mosque, a spokesman said.

"It is clear that the terrorists have targeted Iraqis, the very Iraqis who are trying to improve the security in Iraq and the lives of ordinary Iraqis," coalition spokesman Charles Heatly said.

[Argyll]

Echoes of Mogadishu?
This is very disturbing,I know that as an ex soldier,what happened in 93 was very disturbing,and made me feel sick to the pit of my stomach,and although they were US soldiers I shed tears that day for them.

I also know of the anger felt by the men on the ground,and this has to be kept in check here in an already volatile situation.

[Sabre]

It matters a hell of a lot whether they were shot or had their throats cut. You can shoot someone from a distance without warning and stand a chance of getting away with it, even if they are armed. But in order to slit someone's throat you've got to get close enough to grab them and do the deed. If their throats were slit it implies that the US troops were not conscious of their own security enough. Either they weren't armed, weren't paying attention, were isolated etc. The fact that they were in a car just nails it. Were the windows down, why? Why did they stop? Why wasn't there anyone looking out?

Just answer this. Would you put yourself in a position where anyone could get close enough to slit your throat, without having any defence?

[Seraphim]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?vts=112320030809
Video on link


BAGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 23 — Three American soldiers were killed in separate incidents on Saturday, including two troops whose throats were reportedly slit by attackers as the GIs waited in traffic in the northern city of Mosul.

ELSEWHERE, THREE American civilian contractors were wounded in an explosion in the northern oil center Kirkuk. First reports said the blast was from a mortar, but Lt. Col. Matt Croke said officials later concluded it was a bomb.
The killings occurred after U.S. helicopter gunships struck targets in central Iraq on Sunday, according to other witnesses.
The bodies of the two male soldiers could be seen lying in the street next to their vehicle in Mosul’s Ras al-Jadda district with their throats cut, The Associated Press reported. The U.S. command in Baghdad said it had no information on the incident.
But Sgt. Kelly Tyler of the 101st Airborne Division disputed reports of any knife attack, NBC’s Gene Choo reported.
“Our initial assessment is that they were shot,” Tyler said, adding that the military would release more information as it becomes available. Both of the soldiers have been identified as from the 101st Airborne Division, Choo reported.
Separately, a 4th Infantry Division soldier was killed Sunday and two others were wounded when a roadside bomb exploded in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, the military said.
In political developments, an Iraqi-American woman and veteran lobbyist, Rend Rahim Francke, was chosen as Iraq’s ambassador to the United States.

WARNING FOR TROOPS
U.S. officials have warned of more attacks against coalition forces as the Islamic holy month of Ramadan nears its end Tuesday.
The blast in Kirkuk, 150 miles north of Baghdad, occurred overnight on the compound of the National Oil Company. Three American employees of the U.S. firm Kellogg Brown & Root suffered facial cuts from flying glass, Croke said. On Friday, insurgents rocketed the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad, where many KBR employees as well as international journalists and others stay. One civilian was wounded.
“We all know that Americans are being threatened,” Croke said.
In Samara, about 75 miles north of Baghdad, Iraqi police said six U.S. Apache helicopter gunships blasted marshland after four rocket-propelled grenades were fired at the American military garrison at the northern entrance to the city. One Iraqi passer-by was killed in the air attack.

U.S. AMBASSADOR NAMED



Also Sunday, a spokeswoman with Iraq’s Governing Council said the body has chosen an Iraqi-American woman and veteran lobbyist as its ambassador to the United States.
Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari announced Francke’s appointment at a news conference Sunday. Francke led the Iraq Foundation, a Washington-based pro-democracy group, and has helped in post-Saddam Hussein government planning.
She was born in Baghdad but has not lived here full-time in more than 30 years. She became a U.S. citizen in 1987.
“I will sincerely express the ambitions of the Iraqi people and ... take care of the Iraqi community in the United States, which amounts to some 400,000 people,” Francke told reporters. “The Iraqi Embassy used to be a source of fear for this community, rather than being a place to render services.”
The appointment will renew diplomatic ties between Washington and Baghdad 13 years after they were severed in 1990 when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.
Discussions about appointing an envoy came after an agreement between the Bush administration and the Governing Council to hand over power to a new, transitional Iraqi government by the end of June.
The council also will soon appoint a replacement for a member assassinated two months ago, council member Mahmoud Othman said. Aquila al-Hashimi, a Shiite Muslim member of the 25-seat group, was mortally wounded Sept. 20, the highest Iraqi official killed by suspected Saddam loyalists.
Her replacement is expected to be a Shiite Muslim since the Council, installed on July 13, has been divided proportionally between Iraq’s different sects and ethnic groups: 13 Shiite Arabs, five Kurds, five Sunni Arabs, one Christian and one ethnic Turk.

CARGO PLANE STRUCK
On Saturday, insurgents hit a civilian cargo plane with a surface-to-air missile, but the aircraft landed safely. The plane was the first civilian airliner to be hit by insurgents, who have shot down several military helicopters with shoulder-fired rockets. DHL and Royal Jordanian, the only commercial carrier flying into Baghdad, immediately suspended flights.
Suicide bombers struck two police stations northeast of Baghdad within 30 minutes on Saturday. In the market town of Khan Bani Saad, a Chevrolet Caprice sped through a guard’s gunfire Saturday morning and exploded at the station gate, police said.

The U.S. military said 10 people were killed in one and four in the other.
Elsewhere, an Iraqi police colonel in charge of protecting oil installations was assassinated in northern Iraq, part of what appeared to be an insurgent campaign against U.S.-backed security forces.
Col. Abdul-Salam Qanbar, who was in charge of a police force in the northern city of Mosul, was fatally shot Saturday evening while heading to a mosque, a spokesman said.
“It is clear that the terrorists have targeted Iraqis, the very Iraqis who are trying to improve the security in Iraq and the lives of ordinary Iraqis,” coalition spokesman Charles Heatly said.


The Associated Press contributed to this report.



http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/11/23/iraq_031123

3 U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq
Last Updated Sun, 23 Nov 2003 9:00:28
BAGHDAD - Three U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq Sunday as American officials brace for more attacks when the Islamic holy month of Ramadan ends next week.

Attackers slit the throats of two American soldiers as they waited in their vehicle in traffic, said witnesses in Mosul. U.S. military command in Baghdad said it had no information on the report.
A third U.S. soldier died when a roadside bomb exploded in Baqouba, about 56 kilometres northeast of Baghdad. The soldier was from the 4th Infantry Division.

In the northern city of Kirkuk, two U.S. civilian contractors were injured when a bomb exploded on the National Oil Company compound in Kirkuk. The employees worked for Kellogg Brown & Root, a division of Halliburton, a major contractor to the U.S. government in Iraq.

Also Sunday, Washington named Rend Rahim Francke as Iraq's ambassador to the U.S. The Iraqi-American woman is a U.S. citizen and hasn't lived in Iraq full-time in more than 30 years.

The appointment signals the first diplomatic ties between the two countries in 13 years.



Written by CBC News Online staff

[duck]

Of course personal and operational security will be reviewed, but that was not the point. Is killing someone with a knife less civilised than killing with a gun or an Apache gunship? I think the uncivilised part here is the killing itself.

[Sabre]

All this 'uncivilised' talk is pointless. The main point is how on earth did this occur and how will it be prevented.

I think I am right in saying that two Royal Signals blokes accidentally crashed an IRA funeral back during the troubles. As a result, the IRA crucified them.

Now, that's not civilised, but if they hadn't have been there they wouldn't have died. The same questions apply.

[Roger Rabbit]

I thought those guys were just taken off and shot?

[Sabre]

I may be wrong, but that's what I heard. Not researched it or anything.

[fantassin]

They were doing their first recce after arriving in the Province; they were shot with their own pistols (L9 I believe) after having been beaten up.

[Seraphim]

If it was their first recce, you would think they would be more cautious and aware.

[Roger Rabbit]

From what i know then it was by sheer mistake they turned down the wrong road and ended up at an IRA funeral. Before they could turn around their car was mobbed. Again i don't really know much. Argyll or Martin might know a bit more.

[fantassin]

True, but **** happens...unfortunately for those two scallies.

To come back to the "slit throat" thread, the use of the knife is very important in Arab folklore. During the war in Algeria between 1954 and 1962, the FLN rebels (or freedom fighter if you were anti-colonialist then) used knives and mutilations on a daily basis to terrify the local populace and the French conscripts.

At one point, the FLN launched a campaign that prohibited the use of French Tobacco;any person found using or carrying it had his nose and lips cut off with a razor. Among French prisoners or Algerian suppletive captured by the FLN troops, the ablation of the whole genital organs which were then stuffed into the victims' mouth was commonplace.

Chirac witnessed some of those atrocities while serving as a Pn commander in Algeria; that has a lot to do with his reluctance to commit French troops to the occupation of an Arab country.

[Roger Rabbit]

I highly doubt Chirac's experiences in Algeria have any thing to do with his reluctance to send in French troops. Its probably more to do with coruption and gaining public support than anything else. Besides he sent troops to Afganistan, the Congo and all those other places you mention. As far as i know the Africans have a fondness for the machete and those in the Balkans also have a fondness for knives as well.

[fantassin]

Please, I thought you were serious...."corruption"....it's just like seeing everything Bush does through the fact he is a reformed alcoholic; try to gain a bit of altitude there...Public support, no doubt about it, but "corruption", if it was proved, what role could that play? Plus, I did say "a lot to do", not "only because of that". Unlike Blair and Bush, Chirac has fought in a guerilla war against Arabs for over two years; give him at least the benefit of personal experience if nothing else.

As far as the fondness for cold steel, no other area as such a strong tradition of knife carrying as the Middle East. In Yemen, if you don't "carry", you aren't a man.

In Africa, they are much more agricultural tools, not weapons. The Rwanda genocide was commited mostly with those tools, not with edged weapons per se.

In the Balkans, they are much more fond of firearms than blades in my own experience.

[Roger Rabbit]

Bush may or may not be a reformed alcoholic. Don't really care to be honest.

As for corruption then who knows. But i dont find his personal experience of fighting Arab terrorists a sound reason for him refusing to send troops to Iraq, especially when he has sent troops to Afganistan where if anything they're more likely to meet the wrong end of a knife. The Afgans have always had a habit of mutilation under the blade. I believe the British Armies had more than a few cases of that from the 19th and early 20th centuries.

A agricultural tool can be used as a weapon. When peasents rebelled in Europe hundreds of years ago then they took farming implements. Now in Africa when there is a war then machetes are widely used as an instrument of terror. Its not just Rwanda where machetes are used to attack and kill people. East Timor is an example in the wider world but in Africa then just look at the Congo, or any of the countries currently embroiled in civil war.

[fantassin]

I agree with your views on using tools, I was not limiting that use to Rwanda; it's just that it was the most massive genocide ever carried with machetes made up of old spring shock absorbers...

OK, you don't think it's good enough...he surely, and France behind him, think it's more than enough; there are still millions of Algerian war veterans in France (conscripts were sent there for eight years in their hundreds of thousands) and they remember those eight years vividly. And they really don't want a redux.

The atrocities, the tortures, the blind bombings...it all already happened to France 41 years ago. So don't be surprised at the complete lack of enthusiasm.

[Roger Rabbit]

Yeah i can believe that. But then thats down to public opinion. I'm sure if the French public had support the war and encouraged Chirac to send troops in(this is theroetical here and should not be viewed as a criticism of the French) then Chirac would have sent the troops in even with his personal experience of Arab terrorism.

[fantassin]

The SACEUR, USMC General Jones told Newsweek that "...the French have the most expeditionary force in Europe"...so, yes, maybe, with more public support and a different US stance, there could have been FR troops in OIF.

Only just maybe though...

[Argyll]

One was on a familiarisation tour the other was showing the ropes,rumour was they were SAS,their whole situation was captured on live TV,and they were beaten with wheel braces,and bits of wood,and finally executed by their own 9mm's,the wahole incident was also captured by a Gazelle chopper which was monitoring the whole funeral from a few thousand feet,they were unable to do a damn thing!
It was also thought at the time that the guy was taking his new oppo to see the IRA funeral,but they went too far and the crowd surrounded the car,Taxi's blocked their escape routes.They fired warning shots,but were dragged from the cars stripped,beaten tortured and summarily executed!!

[NcDeuce]

shooting soldiers is one thing, cutting throats is another.

First off, R.I.P. to the fallen soldiers.

I don't see anything wrong in slitting one's throat in combat. War is war, anything goes. I'm sure our troops have slit plenty of throats in the last two conflicts.

[fantassin]

Hats off to such a balanced view even though I would not fancy having my throat slit.

BTW, it's just been reported on TV that the US Army denied the soldiers had their throats slit.

[fred_engles]

The really important fact here isn't whether or not they were killed with a knife. The important thing is that a mob attacked their bodies.

For a a while now, the official US line is that there's a small group of insurgents in Iraq, but that the population as a whole is generally pro-US. This incident suggests otherwise: when two soldiers were killed, and there was no danger of a US response, a bunch of random passers-by in the steet decided to attack the bodies. This suggests to me that, even if the active insurgents are relatively few in number, they apparently have the (passive) support of a large section of the population (at least in some areas). Even if few Iraqis are actually shooting at us, apparently quite a few of them hate us.

[Roger Rabbit]

I don't see anything wrong in slitting one's throat in combat. War is war, anything goes. I'm sure our troops have slit plenty of throats in the last two conflicts.
You may not but i'm sure public opinion does. Throat cutting is a easily imagined mutilation. Lets just assume that these soldiers had actually had their throats cut(recent reports suggest they had not so i'm going to go in the land of make believe here) and pictures were put on Al-Ja whatever Arab tv station got the tapes first. This would have a severe impact on public opinion in both America and the wider world. For example you just have to look at the outcry at the mutilation of American bodies in Somalia. Now i know that some people here would not see throat cutting as mutilation but i'm sure the general public does.

[fantassin]

Since I have no reason to insult your intelligence, I hope this will not come as a surprise that they don't like you.

When an army occupies a country where it does not belong, it always ends up in this way; look at the Brits in Northern Ireland. When they landed in 1969, they originaly came to protect the Catholics from the Protestant paramilitaries that were burning their houses.

34 years down the line, the very same Catholics have murdered most of the 650-odd British soldiers who've lost their lives in Ulster.

[Roger Rabbit]

A mob can consist of anything from 15 people to hundreds. The total number of insurgents might only be 5000 but then you have to add that to the supporters of the old regime. That still doesn't mean a majority hates America and wants to stone dead bodies. Then and again all of the above is sheer speculation.

[martinexsquaddie]

Sorry NI is part of the UK the Majority of the Population of NI want to remain British they voted that way for the Good Friday agreement.
the soldiers who got killed were royal signallers not special forces.
If it had been Sas or even cop. there'd have been bodies piled high :lol:
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Roger Rabbit]

I remember watching a program on the Uk history channel. It was about the IRA attack on some police station and the SAS were there and pretty much kill all the IRA attackers. The IRA had a huge great bomb in a JCB they were planning to blow the station off the face of the earth i think. Anyway the mother of one of the attackers was complaining that the SAS killed her son and did not take him prisoner :cantbeli: yeah because her son would do the same and he wasn't going there with the intention of killing people(sarcasm.)

[Argyll]

That ASU that was taken out at Loughgall,was a terrific day,as James Lynagh the OC of that PIRA unit was KIA,and his team were responsible for many deaths in that area,during my tours there he was always a prime target to take out.!!

[exoninja]

Cutting throats is totally barbaric. Remember the Russian cut-throat video?

This gives the US one more reason to gnaw Iraqis' asses.

[NcDeuce]

shooting soldiers is one thing, cutting throats is another.

First off, R.I.P. to the fallen soldiers.

I don't see anything wrong in slitting one's throat in combat. War is war, anything goes. I'm sure our troops have slit plenty of throats in the last two conflicts.

However, attacking the bodies of already dead servicemen (no matter what nation they are from) is barbaric.

[hood]

Further reports showed that they weren't cut, just that the bullet wounds were to the neck and under the chin so at first it looked like it. This of course doesn't change the beating with cement blocks. The problem is that Saddam ruled by supporting and making thrive the mob mentality. People will do in a mob what they would never do by themselves. We've all seen the countless videos of angry mobs in Iraq and other Arab countries over the last 10-15 years where they're doing all sorts of violent acts to people or inanimate objects. When something is engrained in your mentality by the leader for so long, it's not going to go away overnight.

[Theatreman]

I thought those guys were just taken off and shot?
Stabbed, blinded then shot.

[Seraphim]

I saw one of the bodies on the news...

[Chris1]

shooting soldiers is one thing, cutting throats is another.

First off, R.I.P. to the fallen soldiers.

I don't see anything wrong in slitting one's throat in combat. War is war, anything goes. I'm sure our troops have slit plenty of throats in the last two conflicts.

However, attacking the bodies of already dead servicemen (no matter what nation they are from) is barbaric.
..and taking photo's of dead conscripts and e-mailing them home isn't?
Newsflash
War is barbaric
Neccessary sometimes, can be sold to the public as something else occasionally but at the end of the day it is.

[Steve Andrews]

Regarding the Royal Signals blokes.. they were on a jolly - shouldn't have been where they were.
When I did my NI training they showed us the video of it. It was all filmed by heli-tele. They were dragged out of the car, taken to a bit of waste land, stripped and shot.
I presume that the guys in the helicopter didn't know that they were soldiers, or they may have acted differently.

[Royal]

I presume that the guys in the helicopter didn't know that they were soldiers, or they may have acted differently.

The helo was an unarmed Gazelle conducting surveillance on the funeral. They had no remit (and no real ability) to intervene.

A QRF and a COP standyby team were tasked via the Ops Room the helo was working through - they couldn't get there in time because of the crowds.

[Steve Andrews]

They must have had personal weapons though.....

[Royal]

The Gazelle crew would have had L9A1's and MP5's. The two signallers had L9A1's.

There is no way that their control would have given them permission to either land or hover in that area.

The signallers made a decision not to use their weapons. Something that was discussed long and hard after the event. If they had used them, a lot of 'innocent' civilians would have been injured or killed. :(

[Nawlins]

No matter how it really happened, it's terrible that they were killed.

Rest in peace.

[blancitaloca]

What's the big difference? Both result in a painful death or injury.

You've got to be kidding, right? It's one thing to be shot during battle and QUITE a different thing to have your throat slit... which one would you prefer? :bash:

[GazB]

"We've all seen the countless videos of angry mobs in Iraq and other Arab countries over the last 10-15 years where they're doing all sorts of violent acts to people or inanimate objects. When something is engrained in your mentality by the leader for so long, it's not going to go away overnight."

Saddam Hussein didn't invent the mob mentality... it comes natural to all humans. Look at the LA riots or riots in Europe. British soccer hooliganism is very well known. In an occupied country under the control of a foreign power with little or no police presence is just asking for trouble... and not just in the ME but anywhere.

"You've got to be kidding, right? It's one thing to be shot during battle and QUITE a different thing to have your throat slit... which one would you prefer? "

Throat slit and dead in a minute or two, or a bullet in the gut or bayonette in the gut and die in a few hours or days. Which is really worse?

If looking in the eyes of your victim and getting their blood all over you is barbaric then what is dropping bombs from 20,000ft? Cowardice? Or Progress?

[hood]

Saddam Hussein didn't invent the mob mentality... it comes natural to all humans.

Yeah but there's a difference between something that happens every few years at most, and something that happens every few days.

[tthiel]

It was a Sgt Major and a Spec 5 probably his driver. Apparently Mosul has been pretty open so troops drive around freely. A least they did.


How on earth can 2 guys get seperated from their patrol?
Where the hell was the security,if they were mingling down the town?If they were not on duty then should the Forces be allowed to leave barracks?
R.I.P and condolences to the families and friends :(

[hood]

According the latest report I was reading, the commanding officer has no idea why these 2 were driving in a completely unarmoured humvee, what they were doing not in a convoy and just by themselves, and various other things which made no sense. He said this wasn't a normal incident.

[StarvingStudent47]

Saddam Hussein didn't invent the mob mentality... it comes natural to all humans.

Yeah but there's a difference between something that happens every few years at most, and something that happens every few days.

I agree--the LA riots were an isolated incident, and I've never heard about bodies being mutilated and paraded during succer riots.

You could make a parallel to lynch mobs in the American South during the first half of the 20th century, though. They did some pretty horrific things to African Americans (and to non-African-American civil rights activists for that matter). This included mutilating and parading bodies.

I'm glad the United States has left that barbaric legacy behind. It's a shame the rest of the world hasn't.

Note that this post is not, IN ANY WAY, defending the actions of that mob. There is no excuse for such barbarism, especially toward soldiers who are trying to effing help fix your effing country.

[GazB]

"Yeah but there's a difference between something that happens every few years at most, and something that happens every few days."

Their country has been invaded by a foreign power. Look at the LA Riots... some criminal was hit a few times too many as he was being arrested, Soccer hooliganism comes from your team not winning a game of soccer (of course the reality is that the LA riots was about a bit of looting... ie something for nothing, and hard core Soccer Hooligans couldn't care less about soccer... they just want a fight and to smash glass and wreck cars).

Have you never heard of Babylon? They were civilised 6,000 years ago... you know... when your ancestors were basically hunter gatherers in europe.

Take away law and order and take away jobs and normal life and you are closer to "them" than you think.

"There is no excuse for such barbarism, especially toward soldiers who are trying to effing help fix your effing country."

Of course if someone came into your house to help you with something they saw as a problem but you didn't ask them to help with you'd just let them do what they liked wouldn't you? Except for Israel and Kuwaite none of Saddams neighbours wanted the US and UK to go in either. In my experience Arabs are very gratious hosts to welcome guests... you are just finding how they treat uninvited guests that say from the start that they can't leave very quickly because these stupid heathens can't look after themselves... now Bush is suggesting an early withdrawl might not lead to chaos. I wouldn't believe that idiot if he said the earth was round, but I knew he went in for the oil and he is leaving early because of the cost in american lives. In that sense the violence or barbarism seems to be worth while for those Iraqis that don't want the US in control of Iraq... which seems to be the majority.

[Nizark]

and one of the guys was a command Sgt Major? Why the hell was he in an unarmored humvee? Maybe on a negotiations mission? Unarmored showing a sing of good faith and all? No matter what, RIP to all