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S'13
11-23-2003, 01:57 PM
http://students.engr.scu.edu/~jabraham/specwar/specops/israel/matkal/sm-logo.gif

General Staff Reconnaissance unit
Founded: 1957
Headquarters: Unknown


Sayeret Mat'kal, also known as General Staff Reconnaissance unit, is the unit most people are referring to when discussing the Israeli war against terrorism. Operatives from this unit have led, or been an instrumental part of, almost every notable counterterrorist (and antiterrorist) operation conducted on behalf of Israel from 1957 to the present. It is also the primary unit dedicated to hostage rescue missions within Israel. Sayerot Mat'kal has been assisted on occasion by other Israeli units such as the elite Sayeret Tzanhanim, Flotilla 13, and Sayeret Golani. During periods of war, this unit is tasked with the most risky intelligence gathering operations, a function it has reportedly accomplished successfully on numerous occasions.

Operations of note include the following:

Operation Isotope - On May 8-9, 1972, Sayeret commandos disguised themselves as Lod Airport maintenance personnel before storming a Sebena Belgian Airlines jetliner that had been hijacked by Black September terrorists. Operation Crate 3 - In June of 1972, concern was mounting over the fate of three Israeli airmen who had been taken captured by Syrian authorities. The decision was made that in order to be in a position to negotiate their release, Israel would need bargaining chips of their own. In response, Sayeret operatives, in an operation that has become their trademark, kidnapped five Syrian intelligence officers who were conducting a border tour with Palestinian terrorists at the time.

Operation Spring of Youth - On the night of April 9-10, 1973, Sayerot commandos, one disguised as a woman, conducted the assassinations of Black September leaders. What was remarkable about this operation was that the targets were in three separate locations and all in West Beirut, which was at the time enemy-held territory.

Worth mentioning also are press reports that operatives from this unit were responsible for the assassination of Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) deputy commander and wanted terrorist, Abu Jihad in 1988.




Operation Jonathan
At approximately 1230 on Sunday, June 27, 1976, Air France flight number AF 139 was hijacked by four terrorists. The plane, of which nearly one-third of the passengers were Jewish, was flown to Benghazi. After a six and a half hour delay, the plane took off again and began flying east. It changed course and began flying south east; by 0300 the next morning it had arrived at Entebbe, Uganda.
Upon arrival, the four terrorists (two of which were members of the German Baader-Meinhof Gang) were joined by three others, bringing the total up to seven. The passengers were kept on the aircraft until 1200, at which point they were transported to the airfield's old terminal building.

Then President of Uganda, Idi Amin, visited the hostages in the terminal and told them he was working to achieve their release, and that Ugandan soldiers would remain at the terminal to ensure their safety. The next day at 1530, the leader of the terrorists, a Palestine nick named the Peruvian released the specific demands the group of terrorists were seeking. 53 terrorists: thirteen held in prisons in France, W. Germany, Kenya, and Switzerland and 40 in Israeli prisons were to be released. If they were not, hostages would be executed starting at 1400 July 1.

The Unit
Sayeret Matkal was placed on alert shortly after the Israeli government learned about the hijacking. Members of the Unit assembled at Lod Airport In Israel (The origin of flight 139), but were stood down temporarily when the aircraft landed in Benghazi. Separately from Sayeret Mat'Kal, Lt. Col. Joshua Shani of the Israeli Air Force's only C-130 squadron began conducting basic flight planning for his aircraft to fly to and back from Uganda.

When the Peruvian announced the terms for release and impending execution if they were not met, Israel's Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin, convened a group of cabinet ministers; one of them was IDF Chief of Staff Motta Gur. There were serious complications in using military forces (Uganda was 2,200 miles away, the flight was from a French Company, and only 1/3 of the passengers were Jewish, and not all of these were from Israel) but the military began reviewing options.

Throughout Wednesday, June 30, intelligence information began to filter in. Idi Amin was not seeking the release of the hostages and was actually collaborating with the PFLP. This made an early plan requiring marine commandos to rescue the hostages and then surrender to Ugandan soldiers undesirable. Motta Gur reported that the IDF had no viable plan to rescue the hostages. On Thursday, July 1, Rabin's government agreed to release their prisoners.

Earlier that day, the PFLP terrorists had released 100 passengers, leaving only the Jewish population of the aircraft and the flight crew. Upon receiving word that Israel had agreed to the exchange, the terrorist moved the day of execution back, to Sunday July 4. Intelligence agents were told by the released passengers that the Ugandan soldiers were fully cooperating with the terrorists, and that the Jewish passengers were segregated from the rest. The real purpose of the hijacking was beginning to be made clear. Once again, the military was asked for options.

Jonathan Netanyahu, commander of Sayeret Mat'kal, was briefed on the roles and missions of the units in the plan that was then under development. It called for three ground elements, The Unit, members of the Elite Golani Infantry, and paratroopers. Netanyahu and others argued for a smaller, more flexible force. Brigadier General Dan Shomron, who would ultimately command the raid, decided to go with Netanyahu's recommendation.

By Friday, July 2, a basic plan of attack had been created. Even though the military had not yet been given the mission to rescue the hostages, members of the Unit began to run through the mission. A pole and burlap mock-up of the terminal had been constructed at their base and members of the unit practiced entering and clearing it. Members of Mat'kal now new exactly how many terrorists there were and what they were armed with; a pregnant hostage who had been released had been debriefed and had given Israeli intelligence the information. 8mm film footage taken by a sergeant major formerly stationed in Entebbe was shown to familiarize the commandos with the airport.

Drivers from the Unit met with crews from the Israeli Air Force to practice off-loading all of the vehicles that were to be brought along for the mission. As further intelligence and information came in, the plan was further refined and improved. Members of The Unit continued to practice all throughout Friday as the Israeli government pondered what to do. Friday evening, a full dress rehearsal was performed for IDF Chief of Staff Motta Gur. After witnessing a successful "operation", Motta Gur told the senior officers in the unit he would recommend to the Prime Minister that the mission be approved. The Commandos, their practice session complete, attempted to rest for the mission the next day.


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The Mission
The members of Sayeret Mat'Kal participating in the assault met at Lod Airport at 1130 on Saturday, July 3, six days after the terrorists had hijacked the aircraft and passengers. A final briefing was conducted and last minute details between the C-130 crews and commandos were addressed. At 1320 the aircraft took off (Heading in different directions to fool potential spies) and headed south at low levels to avoid radar detection by Russian ships and Egyptian Radar.
The timing of the assault was critical; in order to slip their large C-130 transports into the airport undetected by radar the force was to land closely behind a British Airways flight that was scheduled to land for refueling. The aircraft made a brief stop at Sharm-a-Sheikh to top off their fuel tanks and feed the troops before the four aircraft formation headed south on their 7.5 hour flight to Entebbe.

By 2230 the aircraft had reached Lake Victoria, just a short distance from Entebbe by air. The last three C-130s broke formation and circled as the lead aircraft made its approach. At 2300 on July 23 (Israeli time) the lead aircraft touched down. The commandos on board immediately sprang into action. Aircrew quickly undid the tie-downs and prepared to lower the ramp as the commandos started their vehicles. As the aircraft slowed, ten members from the elite Golani Infantry jumped out and set up landing beacons for the remaining aircraft. As the aircraft turned onto the taxiway leading to the old terminal, the rear cargo ramp was lowered and a black Mercedes and two land rovers drove out. Ugandan flags flew from the Mercedes and all 35 commandos were dressed in Ugandan uniforms.

The three vehicle convoy proceeded towards the old terminal with their lights on at a steady 40 Mph (64 KPH). The vehicles drove towards the terminal for a full minute before being challenged by two Ugandan sentries. Lieutenant Colonel Netanyahu slowed the vehicles as if to stop and, when the sentries were within range, ordered his men to fire. Israeli commandos opened fire with silenced Berettas, killing one sentry and missing another; who stumbled backwards and began to raise his rifle. An Israeli commando quickly opened fire, killing the sentry with his AK-47, but piercing the night with the weapon's loud report. Realizing that the element of surprise was lost, Netanyahu immediately ordered the drivers to head for the old terminal at full speed. As they approached, several soldiers and a terrorist could be seen milling about outside in confusion.

The vehicles quickly parked by the control tower adjacent to the old terminal and the commandos jumped out and began their attack. The lone terrorist seen outside ran inside yelling, "The Ugandans have gone nuts--they're shooting at us!" The Israelis had truly achieved the element of surprise.

During the initial phase of the assault, Muki Betser's (the second in command) element ran into a problem when a door that had been included in the plans was not there. Netanyahu ran past him and resumed the assault while Betser's group found other entry to the building. A Ugandan guard jumped up from behind some wooden crates and began to fire but was cut down. Another fired from within the terminal, spraying glass and bullets about. He too, is killed by Mat'Kal commandos now entering the building. The Commandos began to clear the building. Some members were darting about independently while others were clumping together, but the basic plan was being followed. Somewhere in this initial assault phase, Johnathan Netanyahu is shot and mortally wounded.

Within THREE minutes of landing, four of the seven terrorists had been killed. The troopers continued to clear the building. By this time, events have been happening so quickly that some of the Mat'kal soldiers are disoriented. Some men are out of position or in the wrong hallways. A little girl suddenly jumped up in on of the rooms they were clearing. The commandos were able to recognize in time that she was not a terrorist and hold their fire, but two other passengers who also stood up were not so lucky and are badly wounded.

The team assigned to assault the VIP lounge in the terminal found the outside door locked. One of them threw a grenade at the door; it bounced of and exploded, wounded one member slightly. They went inside the terminal and entered from an open door there. Inside were two men. As the members of the Unit entered, the two men stood up and began moving towards the commandos, hands raised. Unsure as to the two men's intentions, the commandos withheld their fire until one noticed a grenade belt around the waist of one of the men. Their commands to halt unheeded, they opened fire and killed the two men. As they did, one of the terrorist dropped a grenade he had been hiding in his hand.

All the terrorists were now dead. Only the Ugandan soldiers stood in the way of a safe escape. Several soldiers were held up in the tower next to the old terminal and were firing at the Mat'kal soldiers remaining in the landrovers. The mortally wounded Netanyahu was evacuated to a C-130 at this time. The second C-130 landed six minutes after the first and two armored personnel carriers offloaded and headed to the secured terminal. When they arrived they took it under fire and temporarily silenced it.

Two more APCs arrived on the third C-130 and joined the first two. One split off and destroyed eight MiGs stationed at the base. Members of Sayeret Golani arrived and set up a defensive perimeter. Within Fifteen minutes of the first C-130 landing, the hostages had been freed and the area secured.

Mat'kal commandos began evacuating the rescued civilians to a waiting C-130. They were hampered by passengers returning to the terminal to try and find lost property and darkness. Several of the passengers were also in shock or hysterical. Getting an accurate headcount was difficult in the darkened aircraft. At 2352, less than an hour after the first Hercules landed, the C-130 with 106 rescued hostages took off and flew into the night.

With the hostages safe, the rest of the force began to withdraw to their aircraft. Their movements were covered by smoke and timed explosives devices. The last C-130 left Entebbe at 2429, 99 minutes after the first one had landed. The cost, one commando killed (Netanyahu) and one hostage dead (she had been moved to a local hospital after a choking incident and was not present during the rescue. She was subsequently executed in retribution for the raid).


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The rescue at Entebbe is a classic example of a successful special operations. The Israelis used surprise and superior training to overcome their enemies and gain their objectives with a minimum loss of life. It was a logistically difficult mission. Thirty-five commandos in two Landrovers and a Mercedes with four APCs for firepower had to be transported over 2,200 miles and back again with over 100 hostages. The building the hostages were kept in was guarded by seven terrorists and an unknown number of Ugandan soldiers and was reported to be wired with explosives.
Originally, the Israeli military wanted to use a large force and secure the entire airfield. Netanyahu argued for, and got, a smaller force that would take only the terminal. Speed and surprise would be their main advantages. Using information about the old terminal, a mock-up was built allowing the commandos to practice beforehand, allowing them some familiarity with the terminal.

The Israeli assault of Entebbe achieved it's goals with stunning success. Any study of successful counter-terror operations would be remiss in not including this operation.

duck
11-23-2003, 06:04 PM
There seem to be several units with an "elite" or "special forces" tag on them in the IDF. Is this because of the small size of the units or regional assigments ( Golan heights etc. ) or is there some other reason? Most countries have a clear structure: Army airborne SF - Navy/Marines airborne-capable frogmen - Air Force combat controllers/ rescue teams.

IDFM203
11-23-2003, 08:44 PM
Ok this turned into my one of my most elaborate posts ever………oh well :D

There seem to be several units with an "elite" or "special forces" tag on them in the IDF. Is this because of the small size of the units or regional assigments ( Golan heights etc. ) or is there some other reason? Most countries have a clear structure: Army airborne SF - Navy/Marines airborne-capable frogmen - Air Force combat controllers/ rescue teams. I am actually a bit hesitant to give an answer because you are generally very evasive and short in yours and a bit condescending as well.

But here goes anyways............

(Just note to the Israelis, most of what I bring down is from public knowledge (isayeret.com) or a bit of my own and as such I take great pains to make sure I am not violating any OPSEC rules even with my personal add ons)

Now as to why there seems to be a lot of special or elite units, well there are a lot of quality and great (elite)units in the IDF :D nuff said!! ;)

Ok now its hard to compare and contrast the IDF to other armies for its structure while based on the British army (in terms of rankings and things of that nature) it has its own unique structure that has its pros and cons.

First Sayeret Matkal and shayetet are Israel’s two most elite units. Shayetet is equivalent to the U.S. navy seals in terms of training and missions and Sayeret matkal is actually part of the field intelligence corps. And is answerable to there and not to infantry commanders.

As for everything else. Yeah there is a structure. Each brigade or type of service has their “Sayerets” and “PALSAR’S” that are like the special forces of those brigades. And then you have your Elite Units that are small and highly specalised that operate outside of the main birgades or some in them as well.
Here is an analysis from isayeret.com (includeing thier wallpaper style pictures :D )

Infantry
http://www.isayeret.com/multimedia/collage/infan-collage.jpg

Now Part from Sayeret matkal and Shayetet ,
the IDF infantry Sayerets are the most famous Israeli SF units, and represent the classic model of an IDF SF unit - a hard core LRRP unit with advanced CT and hostage rescue capabilities

The four brigades are in theory identical and share the exact same inner organization. Each infantry brigade is made of three conventional infantry battalions and four special brigade level units:

Reconnaissance Company ("Plugat Siur - PALSAR", in Hebrew).

Anti Tank Company ("Plugat Neged Tankim - PALNAT", in Hebrew).

Engineering Company ("Plugat Heil Handasa - PALHAN", in Hebrew).

Signal Company ("Plugat Heil Kesher - PALHICK", in Hebrew).

Out of the above four brigade level units, the only one which is considered as a SF unit is the PALSAR. The other three companies are high quality specialized infantry units, with better manpower and gear then the conventional battalions, but they are not SF. Accordingly, the IDF four infantry Sayerets are:

Sayeret Golany (PALSAR-- )

Sayeret Givaty (PALSAR-- )

Sayeret NAHAL (PALSAR-- )

Sayeret T'zanhanim (PALSAR--)

As their name suggest, the infantry Sayerets wartime mission is path finders, moving ahead of the brigade, conducting intelligence gathering and reporting back to the brigade' headquarters. The infantry Sayerets will also act as elite assault teams and will take out tactically important enemy posts, which are too well protected for the conventional battalions.
For more click http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/infantry/article.htm
Air Force.
http://www.isayeret.com/multimedia/collage/iaf-collage.jpg
Unit--, Unit -- and Unit -- are considered as Air Force level units and are joined together under the Special Air Forces Command (KAHAM). Unit Egrophan and unit YANMAM, however, are considered as AA corps level units, and are therefore not under KAHAM.

Both Unit --and Unit-- are considered to be elite units. Unit-- is even considered to be the three best units in the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) together with Sayeret MATKAL and Shayetet.
For more click http://www.isayeret.com/units/air/overview.htm
Armered Corps.
The -th and the --th armored brigades are the IDF elite armored brigades. In a time of war, these brigades' mission is to break through a siege on Israel, and then to penetrate deep behind enemy lines, crashing all enemy forces in the way.
These brigades offensive role rather is the main reason why they are the only two armored brigades in the IDF that have their own LRRP SF units.
For more click http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/armored/article.htm
Special missions units
http://www.isayeret.com/multimedia/collage/special-collage.jpg
Unlike other western Special Forces (SF) units, which are relatively big, containing several teams each specializing in different aspect of the military profession, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) was always in favor of creating small dedicated units for dealing with a certain type of warfare or a specific geographic Area of Operation (AO).
Officially, the IDF formed these specific units since the IDF three years mandatory service, which most soldiers (including SF soldiers) serve, isn't enough time to master all the different skills needed from a SF soldier, so instead each unit will master one specific skill. However, this is could have been easily solved by a more efficient reorganization of the already long training regimes of the IDF SF units, as well as the merger of several such units.
The real reason for creating so many units lay in the vast importance SF units have in the IDF in particular and in the Israeli society in general. With such importance to these units, each branch of the IDF wants to have as many SF units of its own as possible, and the more the merrier.
Like most of IDF SF units the Special Missions units are infantry oriented in nature, but there are very specialized, each of them has a unique skill which it masters. Moreover, part from Sayeret Egoz, which is an integral part of he Golany infantry brigade, the Special Missions units don't directly belong to any specific IDF corps and receive their order from higher commands.
For more click http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/special/guide.htm
Israeli Navy
http://www.isayeret.com/multimedia/collage/naval-collage.jpg

I already explined about Shayetet in other threads…
For more click here http://www.isayeret.com/units/sea/guide.htm

Israeli Civilian Special forces
http://www.isayeret.com/multimedia/collage/civi-collage.jpg
For more on these highly specialized and in some cases elite units click on here
http://www.isayeret.com/units/civi/guide.htm


(now my analysis)So in summary, The elite units in the IDF are elite due to their highly specialized training and missions. And yes most of them are small in numerical number of soldiers that are in them… those are units like highly specialized elite CT units that are called in to rescue someone are things of that nature, or you have elite units that operate undercover in the territories or elsewhere. Or you have Elite units that work for the air force that only concentrate on rescue missions or you have elite ones like above shayetet 13 and sayeret matkal. Now with all that, you also have the special forces that are a step above the regular infantry units
Now besides all that you do have a few elite units due to geographic situations, but most are elite due to their specialized missions and training that they carry out everywhere.

Other then what you have on isayeret.com the rest is OPSEC and the knowledge I do know is going to be a violation of that. so this will have to do.

Lastly, you are correct to notice that the IDF does have a lot of special forces units!! The elite units that it has are warranted and deserving of that statues, though I would say that some, only some special forces units are probably not worthy of their status (although nonetheless a good unit) but with that said, there too (sf statues)most are worthy of it indeed!!!

It is much more complex then that but for now, I hope that helps……..

Shalom :D

EDIT- A member correctly pointed out to me that even though I got most of my information from isareret.com, I should still not publish numbers of units and as such I erased them and replaced it with--.

mocking_loudly_died
11-23-2003, 09:17 PM
Now thats what I call a "man" sized post, very impressive. :D

IDFM203
11-23-2003, 09:27 PM
Now thats what I call a "man" sized post, very impressive. :D Thanks…. I knew you would like it ;) :D
Like I said on top "Ok this turned into my one of my most elaborate posts ever"

Hey I am sure by now you or others realise that whether you agree with me or not or even dont exactly like my defences (although I do :D ) nonetheless you sure as hell are going to get a detailed answer to your questions. I can only hope that people show me the same (or at least close to it) curtsey.

Shalom :D

One
11-23-2003, 09:31 PM
IDF just forward his to the isayeret website :P

IDFM203
11-23-2003, 09:35 PM
IDF just forward his to the isayeret website :P Hey I mixed in some of my own commentary as well :D

Secondly, some people don’t know how to navigate websites ;) so I made it easier by bringing the information here :D

P.S. you mean him not his ;)

One
11-23-2003, 10:24 PM
You don't have to disect every single letter. I made a mistake so what :P


Now screw typing add pictures!!!!!

IDFM203
11-23-2003, 11:47 PM
You don't have to disect every single letter. I made a mistake so what :P


Now screw typing add pictures!!!!! It was said in jest ;)
Besides it’s the first time I did it. Here for the sake of friendship I will make a mistace and you can correct me too :D

As for the “Now screw typing add pictures!!!!! Now now don’t get so jumpy now ;) …………….I actually was going to oblige but after your advice to me before as to what I should do I will just forward you to…well you know (http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm) ;) :P

shalom :D

One
11-24-2003, 01:12 AM
Being sarcastic on the internet is hard. I knew you were just messing around.


Anyways about the pictures I say we bring a european mediator to solve the issue.... :roll:

StarvingStudent47
11-24-2003, 03:14 AM
To go back to the original point of this thread, I think it should be repeated that Sayeret Matkal's actions during the Entebbe hijacking prove that they're one of the most righteously badass counter-terrorist teams on the planet.

duck
11-24-2003, 07:33 AM
Thanks for the clarification. Unique structure in a unique situation, I guess.

S'13
11-25-2003, 02:41 PM
Some photos:



Operation Gift, December 1968.
http://www.isayeret.com/operations/gift-1.jpg

Operation Isotope, May 1972.
http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/intel/767/5.jpg

http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/intel/767/767-1.jpg

Hotel Savoy Raid, March 1975.
http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/intel/767/sm31.jpg

www.isayeret.com

JF45
11-25-2003, 03:56 PM
Some photos:

Operation Isotope, May 1972.
http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/intel/767/5.jpg


Guy on the left looks like the former Israeli Prime Minister....if was younger and had more hair.

OzMan
11-27-2003, 01:28 AM
It's my understanding that that is Yitzhak Rabin, during his Israeli Special Forces days. I've seen that picture somewhere before, and the caption said something about Rabin. I could be wrong, I'm not completely up to speed on ISF ops.

PsihoKekec
11-27-2003, 01:54 AM
You are wrong, that is Ehud Barak. I wish there were also photos of him from operation Spring of youth. :D

OldRecon
12-16-2003, 01:40 PM
Though it's now quite a while since I have had any connections with the Middle East, my assesement of Israeli performance in their security zone in Southern Lebanon back then was that they were too thin on the ground (through considerations of national economy?) and too dependant on fixed outposts and technology (sensors, uavs and the like), with too little patrolling by infantry in order to secure the area sufficiently from enemy activity.
Furhtermore I think the main reason for the Israeli military dominance in the region don't so much lie in superior weaponry, as to the deegre of individual initiative at all levels from private and up that is allowed for in the IDF. Which in itself is a reflection of the democratic form of government of the Israeli state. Compared to the more hierarchical and totalitarian form of government that characterises the arabian geighbouring countries to Israel, where individual ability and initiative from subordinates often foster suspicion (not without reason) from those in charge at the top.
Which is one of the reasons why the centralized Soviet style of military command have appealed so much to leaders in the Arab world over the years.
Where local troops and commanders in Arab forces opposing Israel have been allowed the same degree of operational freedom, their performance vs. Israeli troops appear to have been much more "even".
Though at present this new and more "flexible" approach to war on the part of the Arabs seems to be limited to clandestine groups of limited size like Hezballah, Hamas and Al Qaida rather than the more formaly organized forces of their Arab neighbours.
Also wonder how the Israelis solved the problem of protecting the many local Arabs in the security zone that worked for them in the SLA or GSS when they pulled out of Southern Lebanon, and wether or not the Israelis shoot themselves in the foot, by abandoning many of their former allies among the locals to their own devices when Hezballah (and most surely a host of other Syrian backed groupings too) in after them.
Something which certainly won't be good with regards to recruitment of future humint sources.

One
12-17-2003, 12:31 AM
Also wonder how the Israelis solved the problem of protecting the many local Arabs in the security zone that worked for them in the SLA or GSS when they pulled out of Southern Lebanon, and wether or not the Israelis shoot themselves in the foot, by abandoning many of their former allies among the locals to their own devices when Hezballah (and most surely a host of other Syrian backed groupings too) in after them.
Something which certainly won't be good with regards to recruitment of future humint sources.

They started shooting at them when they wanted to leave with the Israelis :)

And the only ones that captured the SLA were the Lebanese Army. The second night of the withdrawl (if im not mistaken) the lebanese army contacted some of the SLA leadership and asked to surrender peacefuly to avoid bloodshed.

UoUo
12-17-2003, 09:09 AM
There is a lebanese army ?

OldRecon
12-17-2003, 12:24 PM
U sail Hobie Cats Uo? :D

As for those Lebanese who used to work in the SLA or GSS I thought it would have a bad signal effect leaving them behind to their own devices, with regards to future recruitment of local humint (however useless or badass some of the locals that worked for the Israelis in the security zone might have been).
Like "why do humint for the Israelis, when they won't do a **** to help me if I get uncovered?"
Any available material on what happened with those Lebanese who co-opted with the Israelis during the days of the security zone?
(How many got left behind and their fate, how many fled to Israel, how many fled to other countries etc.?)
Though in the South Eastern corner of the former security zone there may perhaps still be a somewhat fertile ground for recruitment of humint on ethnic grounds.
As for the Israeli intelligence community, the abduction of those border guards near Cheeba and the ambush of that SF detachment on the Lebanese coast (near Tyre or Saida?) could perhaps be regarded as a rather bloody nose (wasn't there a big helicopter crash near Kiryat Shemona in about the same timeframe? like 3 blows in one month or something like that). Even though those incidents are somewhat dated now.
Without knowledge of what exactly happened during those incidents, one could perhaps wonder wether there was a source within Israel itself or a moment of bad signals security (or the soldiers in question my perhaps were somewhat off guard after all?).
As for the Matkal I guess those are "full time" soldiers, recruited from personell among all the other Sayerets or maybe paratroopers too? (Who cares as long as results are up to expectations?)

OldRecon
12-17-2003, 12:47 PM
On a more personal note:
When you drive north from Kiryat Shemona (are that monument (?) of those coloured SU thank destroyers still there?) there is a point along the road, when you arrive at a t-junction, with a signpost on a heightened kerb, where one either turn rigth to go to Mount Hermon and the Golans, or one turns left to go to Metullah.
When I first arrived in the area there was dead dog with a tan or light brown cropped coat (rather like a Rhodesian ridgeback) lying stretched out on the kerb at the foot of the signpost in mention.
When I left the area some months later that same damned dog corpse was still lying there in exactly the same spot in what looked to be more or less the same condition as when I first saw it :D.
Is that dog thing still lying there in the same spot, and has it aged since all those years ago? Or is it still "there" in "mint condition"?

Javehn
12-17-2003, 02:25 PM
No , i think that all local Thailand workers have eaten him ... :(

UoUo
12-17-2003, 02:31 PM
On a more personal note:
When you drive north from Kiryat Shemona (are that monument (?) of those coloured SU thank destroyers still there?) there is a point along the road, when you arrive at a t-junction, with a signpost on a heightened kerb, where one either turn rigth to go to Mount Hermon and the Golans, or one turns left to go to Metullah.
When I first arrived in the area there was dead dog with a tan or light brown cropped coat (rather like a Rhodesian ridgeback) lying stretched out on the kerb at the foot of the signpost in mention.
When I left the area some months later that same damned dog corpse was still lying there in exactly the same spot in what looked to be more or less the same condition as when I first saw it :D.
Is that dog thing still lying there in the same spot, and has it aged since all those years ago? Or is it still "there" in "mint condition"?


hey..what did you did in israel >?

S'13
12-17-2003, 02:54 PM
Probably working as a volunteer in a kibbutz, am I right? :)

TriggerPuller
12-18-2003, 02:04 PM
Israeli civilian Special Forces...now there is a new one for you!!!

TP

pretorian669
12-19-2003, 06:32 PM
U sail Hobie Cats Uo? :D

As for those Lebanese who used to work in the SLA or GSS I thought it would have a bad signal effect leaving them behind to their own devices, with regards to future recruitment of local humint (however useless or badass some of the locals that worked for the Israelis in the security zone might have been).
Like "why do humint for the Israelis, when they won't do a **** to help me if I get uncovered?"


SAD BUT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

Any available material on what happened with those Lebanese who co-opted with the Israelis during the days of the security zone?
(How many got left behind and their fate, how many fled to Israel, how many fled to other countries etc.?)

To the best of my knowlidge they where given the option to move to ISRAEL but most of them stayed after they where given some promisses by the Lebanesse goverment that no harm will come to them.
Most of them where interrogated and released some got short term prison time.Nontheless our conduct with them was less than KOSHER.

SAD

OldRecon
12-23-2003, 10:46 AM
[hey..what did you did in israel >?[/quote]


Well I was with the NORBATT part of the UNIFIL forces in Southern Lebanon before the UNIFIL started to use the airport at Beirut again in the 1990's. So we used come in and transfer out through Metullah and Ben Gurion.
However bitter it my sound to you, my term of service there (to me at least) could be more or less characterized as "paid adventure vacation".
The amount of money we injected into the local economy more or less ensuing we were left in relative peace (no one wanted to rock the boat I suppose).
Like where you would risk being shot at or blown up by an unseen enemy, we would mostly get away with an AK-magazine or 2 between our legs from some local "Haddad man" wanting to show off.
(They knew, that we knew that they knew we wouldn't shoot back unless we were hit. As most of them were crap shots however, we had some concern about being accidentaly hit by them in such incidents, even though they themselves only aimed to "scare" and not to hit.)
As for "military professionalism" on our part, I guess you will have one or two comments and some good laughs :D (have any of you taken a swim in the Litani during a day patrol f. ex? :D).
It's a quite obvious fact that NORBATT as a unit past 1982 was an underfunded, underequipped and undertrained unit. My hunch to the reasons behind this state of affairs, is that NORBATT was deliberately kept "down there" for some reason or another by some of the people behind the Oslo peace accord (like the late minister of defence/foreign affairs Johan J. Holst in particular). And in order to "keep us down there" "they" had to walk softly in the parliament, with regards to aquiring funding for the unit (as long as it didn't cost too much I guess the required number of politicians could be made to swallow it).
The units we now apply on the Balkans or in Afghanistan appear to be rather better prepared however. And basic training at home also appear to have been somewhat thigthened from my experience.
Though that said I'm not allways impressed with that word "military professionalism", finding that obsession with "military professionalism" often = a good excuse for lack of imagination and creative thinking.

All in all I must say I found my Middle Eastern experience quite surreal.
And the mood among "you locals" (on both sides) somewhat schizophrenic and well "dug in".
All in all being rather happy with living far away here up north, even though it's dark and cold here for half of the year.[/quote]