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View Full Version : Lets Not Forget Afghanistan



Seraphim
11-24-2003, 04:12 PM
U.S. soldiers involved in Operation Mountain Resolve board a helicopter in this undated photograph at an undisclosed location in northeastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), released by U.S. Army on Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. Five U.S. soldiers were killed and seven injured when their helicopter crashed Sunday near the U.S. military headquarters north of the Afghan capital, U.S. Central Command said. (AP Photo/U.S. Army)


A helicopter flies over U.S. soldiers involved in Operation Mountain Resolve in this undated photograph taken at an undisclosed location in northeastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), released by U.S. Army on Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. Five U.S. soldiers were killed and seven injured when their helicopter crashed Sunday near the U.S. military headquarters north of the Afghan capital, U.S. Central Command said. (AP Photo/U.S. Army)


Helicopters are seen in the background as U.S. soldiers involved in Operation Mountain Resolve pray in this undated photograph at Bagram air base in north of Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), released by U.S. Army on Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. Five U.S. soldiers were killed and seven injured when their helicopter crashed Sunday near the U.S. military headquarters north of the Afghan capital, U.S. Central Command said. (AP Photo/U.S. Army)


An Afghan soldier walks past exercise bars at Rishkhor, a former Taliban base 15 kilometers (10 miles) south of the capital, Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Friday, Nov. 21, 2003. Rishkhor, a field and workout course once used for al-Qaida drilling has been cleaned up and retooled for training by Afghan soldiers, many of whom have taken up residence in the bombed out buildings that once housed thousands of militants. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


A painting of an Afghan soldier is seen at Rishkhor, a former Taliban base 15 kilometers (10 miles) south of the capital, Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Friday, Nov. 21, 2003. When Taliban ruled most of Afghanistan, its fighters opened fire on the mural because the regime's Islamic philosophy barred public paintings of any kind. Since the fall of the Taliban, the facility is now being used as a training base for Afghan soldiers, many of whom reside in the bombed out buildings that once housed thousands of militants. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Afghan soldier gestues at Rishkhor, a former Taliban base 15 kilometers (10 miles) south of the capital, Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Friday, Nov. 21, 2003. Rishkhor, a field and workout course once used for al-Qaida drilling has been cleaned up and retooled for training by Afghan soldiers, many of whom have taken up residence in the bombed out buildings that once housed thousands of militants. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Afghan soldier, right, sits in a vehicle with Soviet anti-airctaft gun as a man jumps off at Rishkhor, a former Taliban base 15 kilometers (10 miles) south of the capital, Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), on Nov. 21, 2003. Rishkhor, a field and workout course once used for al-Qaida drilling has been cleaned up and retooled for training by Afghan soldiers, many of whom have taken up residence in the bombed out buildings that once housed thousands of militants. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Abdul Fatah (news - web sites), 48, stands near a destroyed Soviet helicopter at Rishkhor, a former Taliban base 15 kilometers (10 miles) south of the capital, Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Friday, Nov. 21, 2003. Fatah cooked at the base when al-Qaida was in control and cooks today for the Afghan troops. Rishkhor, a field and workout course once used for al-Qaida drilling has been cleaned up and retooled for training by Afghan soldiers, many of whom have taken up residence in the bombed out buildings that once housed thousands ofmilitants. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An unidentified Pakistani prisoner listens to a speech by Pakistani Ambassador to Afghanistan (news - web sites), not seen, at a function before he was set free by Afghan authorities in Kabul, Afghanistan, Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003. At least 60 suspected Taliban and Taliban sympathizers including 20 Pakistanis were released from a prison in northern Afghanistan on Friday. The men, who had been held since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001, were released as part of an amnesty linked to the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Mamoon, a Pakistani prisoner covers his face, sits behind his crutch, before he was set free by Afghan authorities in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003. At least 60 suspected Taliban and Taliban sympathizers including 20 Pakistanis were released from a prison in northern Afghanistan on Friday. The men, who had been held since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001, were released as part of an amnesty linked to the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Mamoon, centre, a Pakistani prisoner stands with his crutch with others, before he was set free by Afghan authorities in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003. At least 60 suspected Taliban and Taliban sympathizers including 20 Pakistanis were released from a prison in northern Afghanistan on Friday. The men, who had been held since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001, were released as part of an amnesty linked to the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Gulab Gul, a Pakistani prisoner gestures after he was set free by Afghan authorities in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003. At least 60 suspected Taliban and Taliban sympathizers including 20 Pakistanis were released from a prison in northern Afghanistan on Friday. The men, who had been held since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001, were released as part of an amnesty linked to the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Julie Goislard, left, sister of slain U.N. refugee worker Bettina Goislard, and mother Rachel Johnson, second left, sits next to Afghan Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah, third left, and Kamel Morjane, right, the assistant high commissioner of the U.N. refugee agency in Geneva during a memorial service in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003. At the memorial service for the young French refugee worker, U.N. officials warned that if international forces fail to improve security in Afghanistan quickly, terrorists will kill more of the people trying to rebuild the country. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Afghan Defense ministry official and soldier look at broken windows and spent cartridges outside the ministry offices in Kabul on November 23, 2003. At least one Afghan protester was killed and six wounded when soldiers fired on a group of demonstrators who broke into the defense ministry in the capital, witnesses said. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters


A soldier of Islamic Taliban militia examines the remains of missiles fired by the United States on an alleged terrorist camp in Khost, eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites). Afghanistan's ousted Taliban said they were behind a blast at Kabul's largest hotel and warned the rare strike on a target in the Afghan capital would be followed by more attacks on foreigners.(AFP/File/Rahimulla)


Pakistan prisoner Mayoon, 27, covers his face before his release in Kabul November 23, 2003. Mayoon was part of a group of 30 Pakistani citizens who entered Afghanistan (news - web sites) illegally during the Taliban rule were released as a gesture of goodwill by Afghan authorities. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters


Afghan protesters disperse after a shootout outside the defense ministry in Kabul on November 23, 2003. At least one Afghan protester was killed and six wounded when soldiers fired on a group of demonstrators who broke into the defense ministry in the capital, witnesses said. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters


Pakistani prisoners are released in the Afghan capital Kabul November 23, 2003. A group of 30 Pakistani citizens who entered Afghanistan (news - web sites) illegally during the Taliban rule was released as a gesture of goodwill by Afghan authorities. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Afghan soldiers stand guard outside the defense ministry in Kabul on November 23, 2003. At least one Afghan protester was killed and six wounded on Sunday when soldiers fired on a group of demonstrators who broke into the defense ministry in the capital, witnesses said. REUTERS/ Ahmad Masood


Pakistani prisoners are released as an Afghan soldier (R) stands guard in Kabul on November 23, 2003. The group of 30 Pakistani citizens who entered Afghanistan (news - web sites) illegally during the Taliban rule were released as a gesture of goodwill by Afghan authorities. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


An Afghan worker of the Intercontinental hotel examines the debris caused by a bomb blast near the hotel in Kabul(AFP/Shah Marai)


A helicopter flies over U.S. soldiers involved in Operation Mountain Resolve in this undated photograph taken at an undisclosed location in northeastern Afghanistan (news - web sites) released by U.S. Army. The operation in Afghanistan's Kunar and Nuristan provinces has been going on for about two weeks. No major combat has been reported, however, one soldier died when his vehicle hit a land mine. (AP Photo/U.S. Army)


U.S. soldiers involved in Operation Mountain Resolve warm themselves in this undated photograph taken at an undisclosed location in northeastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), released by U.S. Army. The operation in Afghanistan's Kunar and Nuristan provinces has been going on for about two weeks. No major combat has been reported, however, one soldier died when his vehicle hit a land mine. (AP Photo/U.S. Army)


members of the International Security Assistance Force stand guard the Intercontinental Hotel after an explosion outside the hotel in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. An explosion went off in the garden outside Kabul's Intercontinental Hotel, shattering windows and damaging a nearby wall but causing no casualties, authorities said. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)


A staff member of Intercontinental Hotel collects the pieces of shattered glass after an explosion outside the hotel in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. An explosion went off in the garden outside Kabul's Intercontinental Hotel, shattering windows and damaging a nearby wall but causing no casualties, authorities said. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Afghan police officer climbs a damaged wall after an explosion outside a hotel in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. An explosion went off in the garden outside Kabul's Intercontinental Hotel, shattering windows and damaging a nearby wall but causing no casualties, authorities said. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Afghan woman looks at her ballot paper before casting her vote for Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Loya Jirga elections at the Afghan consulate in Karachi, Pakistan November 22, 2003. Afghan nationals vote for the Loya Jirga or grand assembly to be held in mid-December to finalize a draft constitution that will pave the way for presidential elections to be held in mid- 2004. REUTERS/Zahid Hussein


Afghan nationals queue to cast their ballots for Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Loya Jirga elections at the Afghan consulate in Karachi, Pakistan November 22, 2003. Afghan nationals vote for the Loya Jirga or grand assembly to be held in mid-December to finalize a draft constitution that will pave the way for presidential elections to be held in mid- 2004. REUTERS/Zahid Hussein


Afghan girls walk past a Kabul University wall, which reads 'Women's chastity is in her veil' in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. More than two decades of continuous conflict have severely affected Afghanistan's educational system. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Afghan girls hide their faces from the camera behind their books as they leave the Kabul University in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003. More than two decades of continuous conflict have severely affected Afghanistan's educational system. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Tenth Mountain Division soldiers stand by as a helicopter delivering supplies during operations in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Kunar and Nuristan Provinces on November 18, 2003. A senior U.S. general said on Nov. 21 that al Qaeda mastermind Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) had 'taken himself out of the picture' and that his capture was not essential to winning the 'war on terror.' Photo by Greg Heath/U.S. Army/Reuters


The body of slain 29-year-old French woman Bettina Goislard is buried in the only Christian cemetery in Kabul on November 20, 2003. Goislard, who was working for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), was shot dead on November 16 in the Afghan town of Ghazni when two men on a motorcycle opened fire on her vehicle. REUTERS/ Ahmad Masood


Pakistani border security forces patrol the border crossing at Chaman November 20, 2003. Pakistan beefed up security along its Afghan border in an attempt to stop infiltration of the Taliban and al Qaeda militants in to the country. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed





Afghan Policemen form a line at the funeral of slain 29-year-old French aid worker Bettina Goislard on November 20, 2003. Goislard, working for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), was shot dead on Sunday in the Afghan town of Ghazni when two men on a motorcycle opened fire on her vehicle. REUTERS/ Ahmad Masood


French soldiers from the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) stand guard at the gate of the Christian cemetery in Kabul at the funeral of slain 29-year-old French aid worker Bettina Goislard on November 20, 2003. Goislard, who was working for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), was shot dead on Sunday in the Afghan town of Ghazni when two men on a motorcycle opened fire on her vehicle with a pistol. REUTERS/ Ahmad Masood


Canadian Defense Minister John McCallum (L) shakes hands with Afghan President Hamid Karzi in Kabul on November 20, 2003. McCallum arrived in the Afghan capital yesterday and will visit Canadian troops based in Kabul. REUTERS/ Ahmad Masood


Cemetery attendant Rahimullah, walks past the grave of slain United Nations (news - web sites) High Commissioner for Refugees, or UNHCR worker Bettina Goislard of France after the burial at the British cemetery in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Nov. 20, 2003. Goislard, 29 was shot in broad daylight as she traveled through a bazaar in central Afghanistan last weekend. The killing has led to a hurried evacuation of UNHCR foreign staffers from the volatile south and east of the country and the suspension of all aid to Afghanrefugees trying to return to their country from Pakistan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


A French soldier carries a wreath for slain United Nations (news - web sites) High Commissioner for Refugees, or UNHCR worker Bettina Goislard before her burial at the British cemetery in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Nov. 20, 2003. Goislard, 29 was shot in broad daylight as she traveled through a bazaar in central Afghanistan last weekend. The killing has led to a hurried evacuation of UNHCR foreign staffers from the volatile south and east of the country and the suspension of all aid to Afghan refugees trying to returnto their country from Pakistan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Oh look he has a biner...must be fake :roll: rofl

A French soldier yawns as they stand guard outside the British cemetery before the burial of slain United Nations (news - web sites) High Commissioner for Refugees, or UNHCR worker Bettina Goislard of France in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Nov. 20, 2003. Goislard, 29 was shot in broad daylight as she traveled through a bazaar in central Afghanistan last weekend. The killing has led to a hurried evacuation of UNHCR foreign staffers from the volatile south and east of the country and the suspension of all aid to Afghan refugees trying to return to their country from Pakistan. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


A worker of the international aid group CARE checks the identity of an Afghan war widow before issuing monthly rations from the organization in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Nov. 19, 2003. Years of war in Afghanistan has claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands Afghan men resulting in a high number of widows. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Pakistani border security forces checks the documents of Afghan men before they are allowed to enter Pakistan from the border crossing at Chaman near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border November 19, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan as part of its counter-terror measures. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed


Pakistani border security forces man keeps watch behind his machine gun at Chaman, near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border, November 19, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan as part of its counter-terror measures. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed


Pakistani border security forces search an Afghan woman at the Chaman border crossing November 19, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) as part of its counter-terror measures. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed


A group of Afghan nationals sit in a jail cell after being detained for suspicion of entering Pakistan illegally in Quetta, November 19, 2003. More than 500 Afghans have been arrested in a week-long drive by Pakistani authorities trying to regulate the country's porous border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) and to stop the cross-border movement of Afghan Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed


An Afghan security guard speaks on a phone in front of the Korean embassy in Kabul on November 19, 2003. South Korea (news - web sites) has evacuated its ambassador and another diplomat from its embassy in Kabul after warnings of a suicide attack by al Qaeda or the Taliban, Korean sources in Afghanistan (news - web sites) said on Wednesday. REUTERS/Ahmad Msood


Puerto Rico's Governor Sila Calderon, center, speaks during a breakfast with dozens of U.S. soldiers who returned home last month after serving in the Persian Gulf, at La Fortaleza in San Juan, Puerto Rico, Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003. U.S. soldiers from the Caribbean said they were glad to be back from combat zones with relatives, but some have mixed feelings about the possibility of returning to conflict areas. Thirteen soldiers of Puerto Rican descent have died in recent conflicts, 11 in Iraq (news - web sites), two in Afghanistan (news - web sites). (AP Photo/Ivan Cardona, Fortaleza Press Office)


Afghan refugee kids walk amid the ruins of their house demolished by local administration considering the house as an encroachment on Islamabad's slums, Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 in Pakistan. The U.N. refugee agency began pulling foreign staff out of large swaths of southern and eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites) on Tuesday in the wake of the killing of a French worker, a decision that could affect tens of thousands of Afghan returnees living in Pakistan. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)


This is a view of an Afghan refugee camp in Islamabad's slums whose dwellers depend on UNHCR's help seen Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003 in Pakistan. The U.N. refugee agency began pulling foreign staff out of large swaths of southern and eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites) on Tuesday in the wake of the killing of a French worker, a decision that could affect tens of thousands of Afghan returnees living in Pakistan.(AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)


Afghan boys play as they remove snow on the roof of their house at a village near Gardez, 100 km (60 miles) south of Kabul, on November 17, 2003. Snow falls are welcome in the country suffering the effects of more than four years of drought. Picture taken November 17, 2003. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Afghan soldiers guard surrendered weapons during a disarmament ceremony in Gardez, capital of Paktia province, on November 17, 2003. Tired of decades of war and under pressure from the government to lay down weapons for good, around 600 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns on Monday in the latest phase of an ambitious disarmament program. PHOTO TAKEN NOVEMBER 17 REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Two Afghan men shovels snow off the roof of their house in Gardiz, Paktia province on Monday, Nov .17 2003. Snow is warmly welcomed in Afghanistan (news - web sites) where the drought continues. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)


An Afghan soldier stands guard on top of Bibi Mahro hill in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Monday, Nov. 17, 2003. Soldiers hardened by two decades of warfare in Afghanistan surrendered their, rifles, mortars, missiles and tanks on Monday to a U. N sponsored program that is disarming and decommissioning them as the country creates the new army. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Afghan soldiers stand guard behind a Soviet made anti-aircraft gun on top of Bibi Mahro hill in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Monday, Nov. 17, 2003. Soldiers hardened by two decades of warfare in Afghanistan surrendered their, rifles, mortars, missiles and tanks on Monday to a U. N sponsored program that is disarming and decommissioning them as the country creates the new army. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Iraqi soldier holds his weapon in front of the United Nations (news - web sites) headquarters at al Canal hotel in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), in this Saturday, Nov. 16, 2002 file photo. The United Nations has pulled most of its staff out of Iraq because of security concerns since the Aug. 19, 2003 attack on its Baghdad headquarters. In Afghanistan (news - web sites), recent attacks have forced many aid agencies to suspend work in wide swaths of the country. On Sunday, Nov. 16, 2003, 29-year-old refugee agency worker Bettina Goislard was killed as she traveled in a marked U.N. vehicle through a bazaar in central Afghanistan. (AP Photo/Hussein Malla, File)


Afghans eh?...size]

Afghan soldiers stand in front of a United Nations (news - web sites) truck at the disarming ceremony in Gardez, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Monday, Nov. 17, 2003. Soldiers hardened by two decades of warfare in Afghanistan surrendered their, rifles, mortars, missiles and tanks on Monday to a U. N sponsored program that is disarming and decommissioning them as the country creates the new army. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)


Afghan soldiers sit atop a tank at the disarming ceremony in Gardez, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Monday, Nov. 17, 2003. Soldiers hardened by two decades of warfare in Afghanistan surrendered their, rifles, mortars, missiles and tanks on Monday to a U. N sponsored program that is disarming and decommissioning them as the country creates the new army. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)


Afghan soldiers stand next to their guns at the disarming ceremony in Gardez, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Monday, Nov. 17, 2003. Soldiers hardened by two decades of warfare in Afghanistan surrendered their, rifles, mortars, missiles and tanks on Monday to a U. N sponsored program that is disarming and decommissioning them as the country creates the new army. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)

US troops patrol in a village near the US-led coalition's Bagram Air Base north of Kabul. At least five people were killed in an air-strike near a Taliban-controlled district of southeastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), a police commander and the US military said.(AFP)


A U.S. soldier stands near weapons that have been handed over during a disarmament ceremony in Gardez, capital of Paktia province in Afghanistan (news - web sites), November 17, 2003. Tired of decades of war and under pressure from the government to lay down weapons for good, around 600 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns on Monday in the latest phase of an ambitious disarmament program. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Afghan Fida Mohammad relaxes on the top of a rocket launcher during a disarmament ceremony in Gardez, capital of Paktia province, November 17, 2003. Tired of decades of war and under pressure from the government to lay down weapons for good, around 600 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns on Monday in the latest phase of an ambitious disarmament program. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Afghan Moammad Daud sits in front of a rocket launcher during a disarmament ceremony in Gardez, capital of Paktia province, November 17, 2003. Tired of decades of war and under pressure from the government to lay down weapons for good, around 600 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns on Monday in the latest phase of an ambitious disarmament program. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


An Afghan refugee and his daughter make a fire to warm themselves at a refugee camp in Kabul Sunday, Nov. 16, 2003. Chilly winter comes to Afghanistan (news - web sites), but most of refugees have not yet received assistance from the governemnt and aid agencies. (AP Photo / Xinhua, Wang Lei)


An Afghan boy stands in the center of a flock of doves as the youngster feeds them outside the Shadi Shamshera Mosque in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Nov. 16, 2003. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)


A U.S. soldier stands in front of a shop as an Afghan boy walks past in Kabul November 15, 2003. At least three U.S. soldiers were killed in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites) after their car went over a mine planted by militants, a top official said on Saturday, but the U.S. military said there was only one fatality in the attack. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Widow (C) of late Romanian soldier Fogarasi Iosif-Silviu cries over his coffin, surrounded by funeral guard soldiers, in Alesd (600 km northwest of Bucharest) November 14, 2003. Fogorasi was killed in southern Afghanistan (news - web sites) on Tuesday, the Balkan country's first death since Romania sent troops to help the U.S-led coalition in 2001. Romania, expected to join NATO (news - web sites) in 2004, has contributed troops both to an international peacekeeping force in Kabul and to the U.S.-led force hunting for remnants of the Taliban and Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s al Qaeda network. REUTERS/Mihai Barbu




Afghans remove a turret top from a Soviet tank to use as a cover for a well in a war damaged area near Bagram, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


An Afghan cyclist passes by destroyed Soviet tanks near Bagram, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Aviators of U.S. Navy (news - web sites) F/A18F Super Hornet, Strike Fighter Squadron One Zero Two, Diamond Backs, walk out on a tarmac upon part of their squadron's arrival at Atsugi Naval Air Facility, west of Tokyo, Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003. F/A18Fs arrived to fill in the retired F14As based here, a day before the U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's visit to Japan. Rumsfeld will visit Japan and South Korea (news - web sites) to thank U.S. troops stationed in the both countries for their contributions to the operations over Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) and discuss the issue of North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons program with each official during his seven-day east Asian tour. (AP Photo/Junji Kurokawa)


A formation of U.S. Navy (news - web sites) F/A18F Super Hornet, Strike Fighter Squadron One Zero Two, Diamond Backs, breaks upon arrival at Atsugi Naval Air Facility, west of Tokyo, Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003. F/A18Fs arrived to fill in the retired F14As based here, a day before the U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's visit to Japan. Rumsfeld will visit Japan and South Korea (news - web sites) to thank U.S. troops stationed in the both countries for their contributions to the operations over Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) and discuss the issueof North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons program with each official during his seven-day east Asian tour. (AP Photo/Junji Kurokawa)


A pair of U.S. Navy (news - web sites) F/A18F Super Hornet, Strike Fighter Squadron One Zero Two, Diamond Backs, taxi down to a tarmac upon arrival at Atsugi Naval Air Facility, west of Tokyo, Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003. F/A18Fs arrived to fill in the retired F14As based here, a day before the U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's visit to Japan. Rumsfeld will visit Japan and South Korea (news - web sites) to thank U.S. troops stationed in the both countries for their contributions to the operations over Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites) and discuss the issue of North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons program with each official during his seven-day east Asian tour. (AP Photo/Junji Kurokawa)



Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s giant Buddhas of Bamiyan, blown up by Taliban fighters in 2001, could be built anew in concrete replicas, Swiss expert Armin Gruen said November 12, 2003. Gruen, who has spent two years creating computer models of the statues, insists that the copies would be correct. The United Nations (news - web sites) cultural agency UNESCO (news - web sites) has rejected the plan as 'profanation' and prefers to leave the Buddhas niches empty. A Taliban fighter sits on a piece of rubble in front of one of the demolished statues in Bamiyan in this file photo taken on March 26, 2001. REUTERS/Sayed Salahuddin/File Photo


Carved in the 5th century, this standing Buddha measuring 38 meters (125 feet), is seen badly damaged in the bitter and bloody battle for Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s central Bamiyan province in this May 15, 1999 file photo. The statue and a higher one of 53 meters (174 ft) was blown up amid an international outcry in March 2001 by the Taliban regime. Swiss-based scientists have created an exact computer image of the statue and hope it will be used to rebuild the ancient figure. 'We have produced a very precise and complete three-dimensional model which can be used for physical reconstraction,' proffessor Armin Gruen said Wednesday Nov. 12, 2003. (AP Photo/Kamal Khan)


A young Afghan shepherd leads the flock in front of the destroyed 37-meter-high Buddha statue Shamama in Bamyan, central Afghanistan (news - web sites) Sunday, Nov. 9, 2003. A computer image of a massive statue of Buddha destroyed by the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan has been created by a group of Swiss-based scientist who said Wednesday Nov. 12, 2003 they could use it to rebuild the ancient figure. The team, based at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, used 30-year-old photographs to map out the statue, which was blown up amid an international outcry in March 2001. (AP Photo / Xinhua, Sun Wen)


Afghan girls hide their faces as they walk past a British camp of the NATO (news - web sites)-led International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2003. The Afghan capital is patrolled by Afghan police and the 5,500-strong ISAF. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


Pakistani officials inspect a large quantity of seized narcotics in Baluchistan's provincial city of Quetta November 12, 2003. Pakistani authorities have seized more than 3,350 Kg (7,385 lb) of morphine and 100 Kg (220 lb) of hashish from Dalbandin district of Baluchistan, officials said on Wednesday. Pakistan narcotics officials say the country is the transit route for about a quarter of the 3, 400 tons of opium produced in neighboring Afghanistan (news - web sites) each year. REUTERS/Rizwan Saeed


Soldiers from International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) patrol in front of the tomb of former Afghan King Nadir Shah in Kabul, November 12, 2003. Thursday marks the second anniversary of the ousting of Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Taliban regime though recent clashes and a car bomb blast came as stark reminders of the problems still facing the country. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Afghan children play as a cyclist passes by destroyed Russian tanks in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2003. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)


NATO (news - web sites) must succeed in Afghanistan (news - web sites), where it has assumed a leading security role, or a flood of ills from heroin to refugees will descend upon Europe, NATO Secretary-General George Robertson(C) told a parliamentary session of the treaty organization on November 11, 2003. 'Be assured that if normalization doesn't come to Afghanistan, then the Taliban will be back, and so will al Qaeda,' Robertson told Reuters after his speech. NATO last summer took over command of the 5,500-troop International Security Assistance Force based in Kabul and is undergoing an internal debate over whether to expand that force beyond the capital. Robertson is seen with ISAF officers in Kabul, September 26, 2003. (Ahmad Masood/Reuters)


U.S. Marine Corps Sergeant Alex Mateo (R) and Lance Corporal Rashawn Holman (L) raise the nation's flag at the United States Marine Memorial in Arlington, Virginia, November 11, 2003. President George W. Bush (news - web sites), under fire for what critics say is a failure to address mounting casualties in Iraq (news - web sites), used Veterans Day to say soldiers who died in Iraq and Afghanistan (news - web sites) served a 'good and just cause.' REUTERS/William Philpott


US soldiers secure their temporary camp aboard a Humvee at Ada Ghair mountains 25 kms (15 miles) northeast of Spin Boldak in Afghanistan (news - web sites).(AFP/Pool/File/Erik De Castro)


Canadian Forces Lt.-Gen. Rick Hillier speaks to the troops following Remembrance Day ceremonies at Camp Julien Tuesday Nov. 11, 2003, in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites). (AP PHOTO/ Terry Pedwell)


Soldiers stand next to a plaque which was unveiled by Canadian soldiers during Remembrance Day ceremonies in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites) November 11, 2003. The plaques is dedicated to Canadian soldiers killed while serving on peace keeping duties in Afghanistan. REUTERS/HO/Department of National Defense REUTERS


U.S. military vehicles travel in a convoy through the Afghan capital Kabul, October 29, 2003. A car bomb, clashes between U.S. forces and Islamic rebels and the arrest of 150 suspected Afghan militants in Pakistan on Nov. 11 are reminders of ongoing threats to Afghanistan (news - web sites) nearly two years after the Taliban fell. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters


Two unidentified men examine the remains of a vehicle following an explosion on Tuesday night, Nov.11, 2003 in Kandahar, southern Afghanistan (news - web sites). A car bomb exploded outside a United Nations (news - web sites) office in Kandahar Tuesday, wounding at least one person, a U.N. official said. (AP Photo/Noor Khan)


A member of Charles Company, 3rd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment prepares to secure a leaky anti-tank round in Paghman outside Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), on Monday, Nov. 10, 2003. Canadian soldiers seized more than 30 rockets, mortars and recoiless rifle rounds during the patrol. (AP PHOTO/Stephen Thorne)


[size=18]Notice the holo sight

Cpl. Bryan Toope of Ottawa, Canada holds a Soviet-made 122mm rocket while an Afghan woman cradles her baby in Paghman outside Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), on Monday, Nov. 10, 2003. Canadian soldiers seized more than 30 rockets, mortars and recoiless rifle rounds. (AP Photo/CP, Stephen Thorne)



Sgt. Michael Thompson of Cold Lake, Canada inspects Soviet-made 122mm rockets in Paghman outside Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), on Monday, Nov. 10, 2003. Canadian soldiers seized more than 30 rockets, mortars and recoiless rifle rounds during the patrol. (AP Photo/CP, Stephen Thorne)


Afghan children scramble for handouts from Canadian armoured soldiers in Paghman outside Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), on Monday, Nov. 10, 2003. Canadian soldiers seized more than 30 rockets, mortars and recoiless rifle rounds during the patrol. (AP Photo/CP, Stephen Thorne)


A British soldier from the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) lays a wreath at a ceremony in the Afghan capital Kabul, November 9, 2003. British Forces held a short Service of Remembrance for those who have fallen in previous wars and campaigns. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


Soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division's 1st Battalion, 87th Infantry, prepare to clear a hill top and set up blocking positions in support of operations outside the town of Orgun-E, about 20 miles from the Pakistan border, in this recent photograph. The al Qaeda network has stepped up activity along the Afghan-Pakistan border, opening a 'second front' to divert U.S. military resources and attention from Iraq (news - web sites), Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s interior minister said November 7. FOR EDITORIAL USE ONLY REUTERS/Timothy Belt/ U.S. Army


An armed Taliban soldier. emnants of the Taliban militia are planning to abduct American journalists in Afghanistan (news - web sites) in a bid to win the release of their compatriots currently held by the United States, the State Department said(AFP/File/Behrouz Mehri)


The al Qaeda network has stepped up activity along the Afghan-Pakistan border, opening a 'second front' to divert U.S. military resources and attention from Iraq (news - web sites), Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s interior minister said November 7, 2003. A Pakistani soldier guards the Tariq post near the Pakistani-Afghan border, October 25. Photo by Mian Khursheed/Reuters


Afghan riders fight for the goat during a buzkashi game in Kabul, November 7, 2003. The Afghan national sport buzkashi is played with two teams of horsemen competing to throw a beheaded 30 kg (66 lb) calf, goat or sheep, as the ball, into a scoring circle. Only the most masterful players, the chapandaz, get close to the carcass in the fierce competition, and the winner of the match receives prizes that have been donated by a sponsor. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood




An Afghan rider takes the goat away from other players during a buzkashi game in Kabul, November 7, 2003. The Afghan national sport buzkashi is played with two teams of horsemen competing to throw a beheaded 30 kg (66 lb) calf, goat or sheep, as the ball, into a scoring circle. Only the most masterful players, the chapandaz, get close to the carcass in the fierce competition, and the winner of the match receives prizes that have been donated by a sponsor. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Canadian soldiers from the International security Assistance Force (ISAF) guard an explosion site in Kabul on November 5, 2003.The explosion blew in windows but caused no injuries at the offices of the aid agency Save the Children (USA) in the Afghan capital on Wednesday, aid workers and peacekeepers said. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


This file photo dated 12 Mach 2002 shows US soldiers disembarking from a CH-46 Chinook helicopter at Bagram Air Base, after returning from the Arma mountain region near Gardez in Afghanistan (news - web sites).(AFP/File/Roslan Rahman)


Notice the secret squirrels?
Ambassador John D. Negroponte (R), U.S. permanent representative to the United Nations (news - web sites) and a member of a high-level UN mission to Afghanistan (news - web sites), arrives at Kabul airport, November 2, 2003. Fifteen Security Council members are in Afghanistan to evaluate the expansion of an international force, prop up the peace process and warn warlords to stop undermining President Hamid Karzai's central government. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Pakistan's frontier police force at the Afghanistan (news - web sites) border in Chaman. Some 40 people were killed when Afghan police and a former military commander and his fighters fought a fierce battle in southwestern Helmand province.(AFP/File/Banaras Khan)


An Iraqi teacher gives instructions to her students on the watching out for dangerous objects and explosive devices. The US House of Representatives approved an 87.5 billion dollar bill for military upkeep and reconstruction in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites)(AFP/Karim Sahib)


Pakistan paramilitary soldiers check the documents of Afghan nationals entering Pakistan at the Chaman border, 120 km (75 miles) from Baluchistan's provincial city of Quetta, October 30, 2003. Pakistan has set up new posts along its border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) to prevent the cross-border movement of militants. REUTERS/Saeed Ali Achakzai


U.S. military vehicles travel in convoy through the Afghan capital Kabul on October 29, 2003. Three American soldiers received minor shrapnel wounds in southeastern Afghanistan (news - web sites) when rebel forces ambushed their convoy, the U.S. military said on Wednesday. The convoy of U.S. and Afghan soldiers was attacked by small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades on Monday morning near Orgun-E in Paktika province, not far from the Pakistani border. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters


A Pakistani border security forces guard mans a machine gun in a bunker in Chaman near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan as part of its counter-terror measures. New posts have been set up to stop infiltration of Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed/FEATURE/PAKISTAN AFGHANISTAN


An Afghan man shows his documents to a Pakistani border security guard before entering into Pakistan at the border crossing in Chaman near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border, October 25, 2003. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed/FEATURE/PAKISTAN AFGHANISTAN


A Pakistani border security forces guard looks through his Soviet-era binoculars for signs of Taliban and al Qaeda guerrillas along the Afghan frontier at the new Pakistani Ghati China post in the remote mountain area northwest of Chaman, October 25, 2003. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed/FEATURE/PAKISTAN AFGHANISTAN (news - web sites)


A Pakistani border security forces guard watches as Afghan's line up to enter Pakistan at the Chaman border crossing near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan as part of its counter-terror measures. Picture taken October 25, 2003. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed/FEATURE/PAKISTAN AFGHANISTAN


A cameraman takes a picture of weapons and ammunition seized by Pakistani border security forces in recent months in Chaman, near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan as part of its counter-terror measures. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed/FEATURE/PAKISTAN AFGHANISTAN



A Pakistani border security forces guard stands at the new Pakistani Ghati China post in the remote mountain area northwest of Chaman, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) as part of its counter-terror measures. New posts have been set up to stop infiltration of Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed/FEATURE/PAKISTAN AFGHANISTAN


Pakistani border security forces checks the documents of an Afghan woman before entering into Pakistan from the border crossing at Chaman near the Pakistan-Afghanistan (news - web sites) border October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan as part of its counter-terror measures. New posts have been set up to stop infiltration of Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed





Pakistani border security force displays confiscated weapons and ammunition at the border town of Chaman, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) as part of its counter-terror measures. New posts have been set up to stop infiltration of Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed


A Pakistani soldier mans the new Tariq post near the Pakistani-Afghan border, some 350 km (217 miles) north of Quetta, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) as part of its counter-terror measures. New posts have been set up to stop the infiltration of Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed

Pakistani soldiers man an anti-tank gun in Ilyas fort at the border town of Chaman near the Afghan border, October 25, 2003. Pakistan has increased security along its border with Afghanistan (news - web sites) as part of its counter-terror measures. New posts have been set up to stop infiltration of Taliban and al Qaeda militants. REUTERS/Mian Khursheed


A German soldier stands guard as his colleagues unload their C-160 cargo plane at the airport outside the northern Afghan town of Kunduz, October 25, 2003. Twenty-seven German soldiers arrived in Kunduz on Saturday to launch an eagerly awaited deployment of NATO (news - web sites)-led peacekeepers outside the Afghan capital. REUTERS/Simon Denyer


German Bundeswehr tanks in Kabul. The German parliament Bundestag in Berlin voted to widen the mandate of Bundeswehr troops in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and allow the deployment of international peacekeepers outside the capital Kabul for the first time.(DPP/AFP/Michael Kappeler)

96B
11-24-2003, 04:38 PM
Great pics man! RIP to all those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice and God bless them and their respective nations!

Operation Ivy
11-24-2003, 04:41 PM
woot woot ....i like the pics wit that MG3 :D

Kingpin
11-25-2003, 02:03 AM
****!

"Destroyed Soviet tanks"
"Destroyed Russian tanks"

Screw this reporter.
They abandoned. Not destroyed. And they belongs to Afgan army. Not Soviet or "Russian".

earl
11-25-2003, 02:15 AM
safety first

redhawk_six
11-25-2003, 03:11 AM
safety first

lol love the motorcycle helmet and MG3 combo.

Nice to see another vancouverite around here :hug:

kinghk
11-25-2003, 03:27 AM
Is it Cetme Modell 58 or just old G3 they are using?
And that green "anti tank gun" looked REALLY old

Operation Ivy
11-25-2003, 12:24 PM
f***!

"Destroyed Soviet tanks"
"Destroyed Russian tanks"

Screw this reporter.
They abandoned. Not destroyed. And they belongs to Afgan army. Not Soviet or "Russian".
rofl rofl like seeing your countries tanks "destroyed' rofl

Roger Rabbit
11-25-2003, 01:45 PM
They are destroyed, they do not function and so destroyed. Just it was probably due to mechanical failure and then looting.

parker82nd
11-25-2003, 06:22 PM
I could be wrong but was that not a MG-42 that the Afgan soldier had on the back of the truck?

redhawk_six
11-25-2003, 07:10 PM
I could be wrong but was that not a MG-42 that the Afgan soldier had on the back of the truck?

No, it's an MG-3, the modern version of the MG-42.

VorpalDoom
11-25-2003, 08:08 PM
Some great photos, and lots of fairly unusual stuff too.

I think i see a G3 with a wood stock... I may be mistaken, maybe its just brown.

anyway, great photos, that tank with the people on top, it looks oddly like a bmp2 without its turret, or possibly bmp1, can anyone identify it?

NcDeuce
11-26-2003, 02:15 AM
rofl


Kingpin wrote:
f***!

"Destroyed Soviet tanks"
"Destroyed Russian tanks"

Screw this reporter.
They abandoned. Not destroyed. And they belongs to Afgan army. Not Soviet or "Russian".


:slap:

Tom.G
11-26-2003, 11:46 AM
Every time there is a war, you see destroyed soviet tanks. I think that tells us something about their quality. rofl

Russian Texan
11-26-2003, 12:03 PM
Every time there is a war, you see destroyed soviet tanks. I think that tells us something about their quality. rofl

I think it tells us something about their marketability.
Price/Quality/Features wise you can't beat them, sorta like Camrys and Accords ;)

Miles Teg
11-26-2003, 12:19 PM
And what about the renforts coming from Russia to the north?
They said to have send materials to help north coalition to fight taliban, and only materials.
But I remember to see some Hind helos and I don't think they were conduct by North native afhghans.

Can you explain de deal with this situation? What was the support from russia for the Afghan conflict?



And for subject change but still in Afgh. i've seen these days a reportage about french special forces (impressive, i will try to post later about it) and at the end show a picture proving presence and involvement of french SF in afghanistan (Desert fort with US and french flags).
But they still very very silent about it. Somebody have heard something about this?

Pandy
11-26-2003, 12:25 PM
The Pakistani Army uses the CETME Rifles. Basically a G3 that was made in Spain.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm

CETME A, B, modelo 58, C Assault Rifles (Spain)

data for CETME mod. B / Mod. 58 rifle
Caliber: 7.62x51 mm reduced power load; also 7.62x51mm NATO
Action: delayed blowback
Overall length: 1015 mm
Barrel length: 450 mm
Weight: 4.4 kg
Rate of fire: 550 - 600 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 20 or 30 rounds


The Spanish state company CETME (Centro de Estudios Tecnicos de Materiales Especiales - Special Materials Technical Studies Center, now known as Empresa National Santa Barbara) was founded in 1949 to develop various small arms for Spanish army. At about the same time it employed the German arms designer Ludwig Vorgrimler, who worked for the famous Mauser Werke in Germany before and during the World War 2. The Vorgrimler was the designer of the experimental German assault rifle, known as "Gerat 06" or Stg.45(M). This rifle was not manufactured in any quantities, but its design served as a basis for further development at the CETME, and more important, at the another German company, Heckler & Koch, which obtained a license for the Vorgrimler / CETME rifle design circa 1957. This deal later resulted in the famous family of the H&K weapons, like the G3 and HK33 assault rifles, HK21 and HK23 machine guns, MP5 submachine guns and numerous other small arms that achieved a worldwide popularity. All those weapons are built using the delayed blowback system of operation, designed by Vorgrimler and his men at the Mauser in 1945 and refined by CETME.

The initial assault rifle development at the CETME was conducted around proprietary intermediate cartridge, known as 7.92x40mm CETME. This cartridge featured a long and streamlined bullet, made from aluminum. The overall design was found adequate, but cartridge was rejected in favor of the 7.62x51mm round with lighter bullet and a reduced powder charge. Improved rifle entered serial production in 1956 and was adopted by the Spanish army in 1957. In 1958 CETME introduced a slightly improved design, known as Modelo B or Model 58. This rifle was intended to fire 7.62x51mm reduced loads but also could fire the standard 7.62mm NATO, if the bolt group and the return spring are replaced with the appropriate set of parts. In 1964, CETME introduced the Modelo C, which also was adopted by Spanish Army, Navy and Air Force. This rifle was intended to fire only standard, full power 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. Its key improvements were 4-position diopter sights (instead of the earlier leaf type open sights), wooden handguards instead of earlier steel ones, bipod was made as a separate part and, most important, the chamber was fluted to improve extraction and avoid torn rims and cartridge case failures in harsh environment conditions. Production of the modelo C rifle was ceased in 1976, and in 1980s it had been gradually replaced by its 5.56mm derivative, CETME Modelo L assault rifle.

All 7.62mm CETME rifles are built around Vorgrimlers' roller delayed blowback system. This system employs a two parts bolt with two rollers. The front bolt part (bolt head) is relatively light and has a bolt face with extractor on it. It also has a hollow cavity at the rear, in which an inclined forward end of the rear part of the bolt (bolt body) is inserted. The system features two rollers, inserted from the sides into the bolt head and rested on the inclined forward end of the bolt body (see this diagram; it will pop up in the new window). When gun is fired, the pressure began to move the cartridge back against the bolt face. The rollers, which are extended into the recesses in the barrel extension, began to move inward into the bolt head, due to inclined shape of the recesses. This movement translates into the faster rearward movement of the heavier bolt body, so, at the initial moments of shot, when pressure in the chamber is still high, bolt face moves relatively slow. When pressure drops to a reasonable level, rollers disengage the barrel extension completely and from this moment on the bolt head and the bolt body move backward at the same speed, extracting and ejecting spent case and chambering a fresh cartridge on the way back. All CETME rifles are firing from the closed bolt. The trigger mechanism is hammer fired, and in military versions is capable in semi-automatic and fully automatic modes of fire. On the early models the safety / fire mode selector switch was located above the trigger at the right side of the gun. From the model C the safety / selector switch was relocated to the left side of the gun. The receiver is made from steel sheet stampings, as well as the trigger group housing, which is hinged to the receiver just behind the magazine housing. Early models (prior to Modelo C) were issued with integral folding metallic bipods and open leaf-type rear sights. The Modelo C rifles were issued with wooden handguards and a separate detachable bipods. The rear sights were replaced by the 4 positions diopter sights, marked for 100 - 400 meters range. All rifles featured a wooden buttstock and a folding carrying handle above the receiver. The flash hider of the Modelo C rifles was shaped to accept and launch NATO-standard rifle grenades. Most rifles were issued with magazines of 20 rounds capacity and made of steel, but 30 rounds magazines also were available.

fantassin
11-26-2003, 03:24 PM
There has been around 200 French SF operators in Afghanistan since June 2003.

CJTF 180, the US command in Afghanistan has asked for more of them and for their mission to be extended because unlike other European (Brit excluded) Coalition SF they are actually active against the terrorists rather than just staying in Kabul.

Miles Teg
11-27-2003, 08:29 AM
Good news :)

Pille1234
11-30-2003, 06:15 PM
probably Kundus, don't know for sure

MarineDEP4
11-30-2003, 06:34 PM
i think it's time for a professional international buzkashi league., any of you chapandaz want in?


rofl

Adri
11-30-2003, 06:37 PM
Every time there is a war, you see destroyed soviet tanks. I think that tells us something about their quality. rofl

there are still a large number of tanks from the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan, The Afghan war lords and Taliban din't have to much tanks, so these tanks can be from Soviet invasion. but I don't know since I didn't take the picture....

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
11-30-2003, 06:43 PM
Who cares were the tanks are from...the fact is they arnt mobile and have been raped/pillaged of every serviceable semi working part on them.

I wanna see more pics of Afghanistan woot

Pandy
11-30-2003, 07:32 PM
that sounds good to me.

JunglistSoldier
11-30-2003, 07:45 PM
The russians build fine tanks.

Marxist203
12-01-2003, 12:24 AM
safety first

lol love the motorcycle helmet and MG3 combo.

Nice to see another vancouverite around here :hug:

Yeah, the majority of Canadians on this site are in and around Vancouver Ive noticed.

EvanL
12-01-2003, 12:32 AM
safety first

lol love the motorcycle helmet and MG3 combo.

Nice to see another vancouverite around here :hug:

Yeah, the majority of Canadians on this site are in and around Vancouver Ive noticed.
Ottawa boy over here. Although my family is all from Surrey and i have spent aslot of time out west/

earl
12-01-2003, 12:54 AM
The Pakistani Army uses the CETME Rifles. Basically a G3 that was made in Spain.

Pakistan Ordinance manufactures the G3 under licence from HK. CETMEs are probably being replaced.

thatguy96
12-01-2003, 02:04 AM
That ain't no helicopter...AN-2 sans tail and wings...

Kingpin
12-01-2003, 03:09 AM
And what about the renforts coming from Russia to the north?
They said to have send materials to help north coalition to fight taliban, and only materials.
But I remember to see some Hind helos and I don't think they were conduct by North native afhghans.

Can you explain de deal with this situation? What was the support from russia for the Afghan conflict?



And for subject change but still in Afgh. i've seen these days a reportage about french special forces (impressive, i will try to post later about it) and at the end show a picture proving presence and involvement of french SF in afghanistan (Desert fort with US and french flags).
But they still very very silent about it. Somebody have heard something about this?

We gave them a lot of equipment from our stocks: weapons, armor, spare parts.

As for Hind it may be Russian as well as Taliban or North alliance (they also had some from time when old Kabul regime fallen).

Kingpin
12-01-2003, 03:20 AM
rofl


Kingpin wrote:
f***!

"Destroyed Soviet tanks"
"Destroyed Russian tanks"

Screw this reporter.
They abandoned. Not destroyed. And they belongs to Afgan army. Not Soviet or "Russian".


:slap:

Fsssssshhhhh!



BANG!




woot woot woot

JF45
12-01-2003, 05:13 AM
Perhaps you should reconsider the direction you are taking this before someone posts the pictures of the thousands of Soviet tanks and equipment, employed using Soviet doctrine, that were destroyed during the first Gulf War.

USMarine3521
12-01-2003, 05:18 AM
MCCUU?!?! wow didn't know they gave them to aghans, I'm pretty sure he isn't a Marine by looking at his hair.

Seraphim
12-01-2003, 05:25 AM
Of course he isnt a Marine.

Kingpin
12-01-2003, 05:45 AM
Perhaps you should reconsider the direction you are taking this before someone posts the pictures of the thousands of Soviet tanks and equipment, employed using Soviet doctrine, that were destroyed during the first Gulf War.

Funny man! I'll be wondered if you post here pics of one hundred of such tanks. So please don't talk about "thousands" :lol: :lol: :lol:
BTW many tanks on those pics were abandoned by crews still intact (run out of fuel). Before been pictured such tanks were blown up by sappers

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
12-01-2003, 06:09 AM
MCCUU?!?! wow didn't know they gave them to aghans, I'm pretty sure he isn't a Marine by looking at his hair.

I asked that a while ago why they are giving the Afghani's the good military camoflauge. Like geez woodland pattern or get rid of that crappy 6 color desert they probably got bunkers full of that bull****. US tax dollars at work.

JF45
12-01-2003, 05:16 PM
Funny man! I'll be wondered if you post here pics of one hundred of such tanks. So please don't talk about "thousands" :lol: :lol: :lol:
BTW many tanks on those pics were abandoned by crews still intact (run out of fuel). Before been pictured such tanks were blown up by sappers
Fine. You want to take it down this road, it's your call. Here's a partial list of destroyed Iraqi equipment(taken from CNN):

3700 battle tanks(that means Soviet tanks)
2400 armored vehicles(that means Soviet BMP's and the like)
2600 artillery pieces
36 fixed wing aircraft in air-to-air engagement(that means Migs, and doesn't count the aircraft destroyed on the ground)
6 helicopters in air to air engagement(that means Hinds)

As you can see, THOUSANDS of pieces destroyed. Sound too high for you? Think it's exaggerated? Half that amount. You still have THOUSANDS of pieces destroyed. Still too high for you? Be ridiculous and quarter it. You still have THOUSANDS of pieces destroyed. So yes, I will talk about THOUSANDS.

These occurred during such battles as Khafji, where the Iraqis where attacking before the ground war began, the Marine and Saudi thrust through Kuwait, and the race across Iraq to envelop enemy forces where multiple Republican Guard divisions were engaged and decimated. You know the Republican Guards, the well-trained, well-equipped, well-supplied, and motivated professional soldiers of the Iraqi military. Oh yeah, and there was the battle after the ceasefire when a Republican Guard unit engaged American forces which resulted in the RG unit being destroyed. Pretty amazing for abandoned tanks and vehicles with no fuel.

Judging from your post about fuel, abandonment, and sappers, I know what you are going to say: that these are numbers from the first Gulf War. But had you taken the time to read my still-unedited post, you would see I had been talking about Desert Storm all along, written in plain English. As for English not being your primary language, you knew it well enough to read my post and make a comment.

Do I need to drag the images of the burning tanks and BMP's into this? Or the video footage of tank after tank, BMP after BMP being destroyed in battle? Or the pictures of the massive tank graveyards?

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
12-01-2003, 05:44 PM
Yup thats definately alot of tanks for sure. I remeber seeing pictures of the Iraqi army leaving kuwait then on the road back to Iraq getting mercylessly bombed and them all being destroyed laying on the side of the road. It definately was quite the desktop wallpaper cause all you can see is blow up tanks/apc's for a mile.

Adri
12-01-2003, 05:46 PM
I have read a strange artikkle in a norwegian news paper this morning about the war in iraq:

(since you can't read norwegian, I will brifely write it hear)

it is based on what captured iraqi generals and high raking officers have said, here are some of the points in the artikkle:

-an Iraqi officer at an millitary airfield, got an order from saddam to destroy all of their fighter planes. (days befor the war)
-many officers told the news paper that they where given orders and then a secound order wich was totaly diffrent from the first one, so a started operation was never finished (?)

the artikkle allso pointed out that many of the Generals said that Saddam didn't think USA would attack.

so it looks like Saddam did the same as Hitler, he didn't lett the generalt do their job (to all americans: I am not saing that you wouldn't win the war, but it could have taken longer time)

JF45
12-02-2003, 04:27 PM
Dude looks like Streethawk, for those of you who remember that show. :D

usa320
12-02-2003, 08:05 PM
Kingpin, trying to say that those Taliban tanks werent destroyed is like trying to say that Uday and Quasai are still alive.

They have been hit hard, IMHO probably by either hellfires or A-10 cannon fire... And IMHO it appears that their ammo stores went up as well, mkaing for some good secondary hits.

And lets not even talk about how many Soviet made APC's and MBT's got offed in both Iraqi wars. I reckon the kill ration was like 50 to 1 or something, cant recall off hand...

The single airborne photo of "the highway of death" alone shows a few thousand DESTROYED iraq SOVIET BUILT BRDMs, BMP's and T-xx style tanks, along with SA-9 and SA-8 type SAM mobile launchers, BM-21 grad rocket trucks and other vehicles...

JF45
12-03-2003, 05:47 AM
And lets not even talk about how many Soviet made APC's and MBT's got offed in both Iraqi wars. I reckon the kill ration was like 50 to 1 or something, cant recall off hand...
Considering that tank losses were 3700 to 4 in Desert Storm, the ratio would be more like 925 to 1.

GazB
12-03-2003, 09:16 AM
"Considering that tank losses were 3700 to 4 in Desert Storm, the ratio would be more like 925 to 1."

So what, the main tank killer in DS was LGBs... what type of tank does the US have that can be used in the desert environment and is proof against LGBs? Also the vast majority of Iraqs tanks were Chinese copies of Soviet designs.

Equally I can't say for sure without looking at the markings but the vast majority of unguided rockets and recoiless rifles and anti aircraft guns used by the afghans were payed for by the US, but were Chinese made copies of Soviet stuff. The US could pretend to the world that it wasn't that involved, the afghans were happy because their recruits were trained in the afghan army on soviet gear and the chinese copies weren't that different. (Except for things like AGS-17 30mm grenade launchers and BG-15 underbarrel 40mm grenade launchers that the afghan army didn't have.)

BTW A dumb reporter makes the mistake of calling lined up and therefore obviously abandoned Russian BTRs tanks, but I kinda expected a little more from weapon enthusiasts. Is a stryker a Tank?

"They are destroyed, they do not function and so destroyed. Just it was probably due to mechanical failure and then looting."

Rupert, not sure where you are from but destroyed means damaged so badly it no longer works. The vehicles are not very clear, but I'd suggest they were striped down, not blown up. If you strip down your cars engine for repair it is not destroyed (unless you can't put it back together... and even then it is not destroyed... just dismantled and screwed.)

Considering how much money the peace loving americans spend every year on weapons you'd expect them to never have to fight. Now I hear they even want to develop new types of nuclear weapons for those hard to reach places.

Still, it is all about terrorism... well muslim extremists, well one small group of muslims extremists called al qada, and of course saddam... and a little bit of Iran and North Korea too, OK so the terrorism is just cooked up so you can take on militarily all the groups that annoy you...


...just stay calm and step away from the jelly donuts...

GazB
12-03-2003, 09:35 AM
"The single airborne photo of "the highway of death" alone shows a few thousand DESTROYED iraq SOVIET BUILT BRDMs, BMP's and T-xx style tanks, along with SA-9 and SA-8 type SAM mobile launchers, BM-21 grad rocket trucks and other vehicles..."

And similar scenes were in the Arab Israeli wars... nothing to do with the type or quality of the armour and everything to do with who owns the sky.
(In Israeli hands the T-55 and T-62 was quite effective, if not outstanding).

Kingpin
12-03-2003, 10:13 AM
The single airborne photo of "the highway of death" alone shows a few thousand DESTROYED iraq SOVIET BUILT BRDMs, BMP's and T-xx style tanks, along with SA-9 and SA-8 type SAM mobile launchers, BM-21 grad rocket trucks and other vehicles...

Bring this photo as evidence, please. :)
And by the way i strictly doubt that you know how much "thousand" is. :)

Kingpin
12-03-2003, 10:25 AM
Do I need to drag the images of the burning tanks and BMP's into this? Or the video footage of tank after tank, BMP after BMP being destroyed in battle? Or the pictures of the massive tank graveyards?

Please post all of them. ;)

JF45
12-03-2003, 04:14 PM
GazB, the point is that Kingpin wanted to take this thread down the USSR vs. US equipment route, as usual. My suggestion to him was to rethink that, because destroyed Soviet tanks is much more common, using Desert Storm as an example. Instead, he chose to delude himself of what most in the world know, that the Iraqi's, using Soviet equipment and doctrine, suffered enormous losses in the thousands.

He was the one who doubted thousands. Well here are the partial numbers again:

3700 battle tanks <---Looks like thousands
2400 armored vehicles <---Looks like thousands
2600 artillery pieces <---Looks like thousands

That's not even counting other equipment. Then we followed by halving the numbers, and even quartering them just for sh!ts and giggles. We still came up with thousands of pieces of destroyed equipment. Kingpin's best reponse is that we don't know what a thousand is. Apparently, he's the one who doesn't know what a thousand is, nor is he capable of basic arithmetic that would have shown him that a quarter of the losses in GW1 would still have been in the thousands.

Here are a handful of pictures:
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10131865/IH030526.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132964/IH029711.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132334/IH029685.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132347/IH023420.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132323/IH030431.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132522/IH030524.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10133412/IH030525.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132321/IH029641.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132384/IH023419.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132551/IH030512.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132737/IH029644.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10410650/MP001007.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132843/IH030218.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10132364/IH023367.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/11342812/YA017925.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/11342813/YA017926.jpg

I have no doubt that Kingpin's response is going to be on the lines of "where are the thousands?". Of course, anybody with a 3rd grade education would know that no single photo would have a thousand or thousands in it-the sheer numbers alone would not fit in the photo without having to pull back so far, you'd not recognize the tanks. And that is simply an ignorant remark of one who is incapable of arguing his point, so he'll use any dodging he can. To this point in time, the only response he's made was a personal attack of not knowing what a thousand is. He has not been able to dispute the FACTS.

Red
12-03-2003, 04:20 PM
kingpin have you gone to pick up your medication?

Javehn
12-03-2003, 06:04 PM
Sorry , something slightly off topic ...
GazB , what the hell , man ? Have nothing to do with armor quality and all with air force ? I BEG YOU PARDON !!! You are insluting by this generations of Israeli tankers , and that includes yours trully !! I see here that you do saying that we can use tanks in outstanding matter , but airforce have nothing to do with it . 1973 war , for example - Air force couldn't get anywhere becose of strela complex being deployed by Suria and egypt . No, sir , it's about tankers , and tactic used in brigade and higher level with combined arms . IDF tankers are the best ... Sorry for that off topic , continue please.Kick ass , if you need - you know you like it ..
rofl

GazB
12-03-2003, 09:02 PM
"GazB, the point is that Kingpin wanted to take this thread down the USSR vs. US equipment route, as usual."

Nope, I believe he just questioned why vehicles were being referred to as Russian and Soviet when it is more likely that they were Taleban nd Northern Alliance.

"GazB , what the hell , man ? Have nothing to do with armor quality and all with air force ? I BEG YOU PARDON !!!"

Please reread that post. In fact I'll repeat the quote I included with my reply.

"The single airborne photo of "the highway of death" alone shows a few thousand DESTROYED iraq SOVIET BUILT BRDMs, BMP's and T-xx style tanks, along with SA-9 and SA-8 type SAM mobile launchers, BM-21 grad rocket trucks and other vehicles..."

Are you trying to tell me that these vehicles destroyed in columns lined up down roads and the similar pictures from the ME wars that I referred to in my reply were destroyed by Israeli tankers? Please!
They were hit by airpower. He who controls the sky has a huge advantage, especialy if he can use that advantage to attack his enemies.

I was not intending to ignore the skills of the Israeli tankers, but point out that if the Iraqis had M1A3s the result would have been the same. A LGB will destroy any tank it happened to smash into the top of. I tried to show that by pointing out that in competant hands (ie israeli hands) they can do the job as well as any contemporary western tank. The T-72 is a contemporary to the M60. Iraq didn't have any T-80s, or T-90s.

JF45
12-04-2003, 02:52 AM
Nope, I believe he just questioned why vehicles were being referred to as Russian and Soviet when it is more likely that they were Taleban nd Northern Alliance.
And when he failed to provide any reasons for his questioning other than ranting, he decided to post a picture of a destroyed American tank in some kind of form of one-upmanship. I suggested he not take the thread in that direction (USSR vs US) considering that thousands of destroyed Soviet provided equipment from Desert Storm could be thrown back at him, but he decided to insist it never happened and demanded proof.

Well the numbers were there. And when the numbers were ridiculously quartered, they still ended up with thousands of pieces destroyed. And though modified Chinese T-54/55's were used, the bulk of Iraq's tanks and armored vehicles were of Soviet manufacture. Many of these were destroyed in the ground battles during the Hail Mary sweep across Iraq, as well as the Marine attack across Kuwait. His best answer to all this: "And by the way i strictly doubt that you know how much "thousand" is".

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
12-04-2003, 04:05 AM
Ok we all know that Us tanks are alot better then cold war era Soviet tanks. Plus a big part in destroying all of those tanks can be credited to Us air superiority, T72's cannot fight off a super sonic jet droping laser guided weapons on it.

Can I see more pics of Afghanistan now? Please n thank you

Seraphim
12-04-2003, 06:52 AM
Sorry cant find anymore afghanistan slideshows.

GazB
12-04-2003, 07:43 AM
"And when he failed to provide any reasons for his questioning other than ranting, he decided to post a picture of a destroyed American tank in some kind of form of one-upmanship."

Umm, are you reading a different thread?

If you look back he said:

"Screw this reporter.
They abandoned. Not destroyed. And they belongs to Afgan army. Not Soviet or "Russian"."

The replies he got to these, quite accurate statements was:

"like seeing your countries tanks "destroyed' "
From Operation Ivy surrounded by laughing emoticons,

A post with some laugh emoticons and the slap emoticon from TF160SOAR

"Every time there is a war, you see destroyed soviet tanks. I think that tells us something about their quality." with a laughing emoticon from Tom.G

He then replied to TF160SOAR's post with an image of a Russian anti tank missile being launched and an image of a destroyed tank.

Hardly unprovoked attack by someone with an agenda, but a reaction to a few juvenile shots.

Kingpin
12-04-2003, 10:13 AM
"And when he failed to provide any reasons for his questioning other than ranting, he decided to post a picture of a destroyed American tank in some kind of form of one-upmanship."
Umm, are you reading a different thread?
If you look back he said:
"Screw this reporter.
They abandoned. Not destroyed. And they belongs to Afgan army. Not Soviet or "Russian"."
The replies he got to these, quite accurate statements was:
"like seeing your countries tanks "destroyed' "
From Operation Ivy surrounded by laughing emoticons,
A post with some laugh emoticons and the slap emoticon from TF160SOAR
"Every time there is a war, you see destroyed soviet tanks. I think that tells us something about their quality." with a laughing emoticon from Tom.G
He then replied to TF160SOAR's post with an image of a Russian anti tank missile being launched and an image of a destroyed tank.
Hardly unprovoked attack by someone with an agenda, but a reaction to a few juvenile shots.

Thanks for explanation. I'm not very fluent in English to wite long posts :)

From all pics only this http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/11342813/YA017926.jpg
have some sense in your arguing. There are approx 500 vehicles of all sorts, some still intact. As i understand that all collected from road of death.

But this photo doesn't prove anything. First of all you failed to show me more. As for event itself thrust me withdrawing US convoy under heavy aerial and artillery bombardment without cover from the top will have the same end. :)

Edit: and as i said before - if someone can't use weapon properly that does not mean that this weapon is bad. This is not Russian problem that Arabs doesn't have balls to fight in conventional war. They just discredit our weapons.

Seraphim
12-04-2003, 01:56 PM
Afghan policemen stand guard near an explosion site in Kabul on December 4, 2003. An explosion happened in an open field about one km (half a mile) from the heavily fortified U.S. embassy compound in Kabul, but caused no damage or injuries. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood









U.S. Marines stand guard at the main entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Dec. 10, 2001. A rocket exploded in a field across the street from the embassy on Thursday, the same day Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld visited the Afghan capital. (AP Photo/Marco Di Lauro).



U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld inspects Afghan soldiers on his arrival at the Presidential Palace to meet Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Dec. 4, 2003. Rumsfeld also met with the two main warlords of northern Afghanistan earlier Thursday and said he is satisfied that they have begun disarming. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Master Sgt. William Kerwood, 37, of Houston, Mo., shown in this undated picture, was one of three airmen from Hurlburt Field, Fla., remembered in a memorial service at the Air Force base Wednesday, Dec. 3, 2003. They were among five service members killed when an MH-53J Pave Low helicopter crashed Nov. 23 in Afghanistan (news - web sites). (AP Photo/U.S. Air Force)



Tech. Sgt. Howard Walters, 33, of Port Huron, Mich., shown in this undated file photo, was one of three airmen from Hurlburt Field, Fla., remembered during a memorial service at the base Wednesday, Dec. 3, 2003. They were among five service personnel killed when their MH-53J Pave Low helicopter crashed Nov., 23 in Afghanistan (news - web sites). (AP Photo/U.S. Air Force)



Staff Sgt. Thomas A. Walkup Jr., 25, of Millville, N.J., shown in an undated file picture, was among three airmen from Hurlburt Field, Fla., remembered at a memorial service at the base Wednesday, Dec. 3, 2003. They were among five service personnel killed when an MH-53J Pave Low helicopter crashed Nov. 23 in Afghanistan (news - web sites). (AP Photo/U.S. Air Force)



An Iranian policeman guards the Pakistan frontier December 2, 2003. Iranian border officials sought help from the U.N. drugs chief Antonio Maria Costa this week to combat well-armed traffickers using camels to smuggle heroin through mountain passes from Pakistan and Afghanistan (news - web sites). Picture taken December 2. REUTERS/Morteza Nikoubazl



An Afghan policeman stands near a blood stain on a street in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar December 3, 2003. A U.S. soldier had a leg blown off when a renegade Afghan policeman threw a grenade at a U.S. military vehicle police said. The attack occurred in a crowded market area in the center of Kandahar as four U.S. military vehicles were driving through, a senior police officer said. Photo by Reuters



An Iranian policeman guards the Pakistan frontier on December 2, 2003. Iranian border officials sought help from the U.N. drugs chief Antonio Maria Costa this week to combat well-armed traffickers using camels to smuggle heroin through mountain passes from Pakistan and Afghanistan (news - web sites). REUTERS/Morteza Nikoubazl



Director of the United Nations (news - web sites) Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention Antonio Maria Costa (C) speaks with the Iranian border commander during a visit to the Iranian border December 2, 2003. Iranian border officials sought help from the U.N. drugs chief this week to combat well-armed traffickers using camels to smuggle heroin through mountain passes from Pakistan and Afghanistan (news - web sites). REUTERS/Morteza Nikoubazl



The Pentagon (news - web sites) said on December 2, 2003 that it will allow American-born Yaser Esam Hamdi, captured in Afghanistan (news - web sites) two years ago and held at a U.S. Navy (news - web sites) jail as 'an enemy combatant,' to have access to a lawyer. Hamdi, 22, is held in Charleston, South Carolina, and has not been charged. Hamdi is shown being led away by a Northern Alliance soldier (R) near Mazar-i-Sharif December 1, 2001. Photo by Reuters



Afghan national army commanders talk to the media next to Soviet-made tanks, surrendered by warlords in Gondi Volga 30 kilometers (19 miles) east of Mazar-e-Sharif, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Tuesday, Dec. 2, 2003. Feuding warlords in northern Afghanistan handed over tanks and cannons to the fledgling national army Tuesday in a move greeted by war-weary residents as a chance for peace after more than two decades of fighting. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)





An Afghan soldier stands guard with jet contrails overhead during voting for provincial delegates at Kabul's National Stadium December 2, 2003. The United Nations (news - web sites) has begun registering the first of an estimated 10.5 million Afghans expected to vote in their volatile country's first free elections next year. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan policeman stands guard on the Kabul-Kandanahar road. Suspected Taliban militants have freed a Turkish road engineer almost a month after his abduction while travelling on the highway(AFP)



An Afghan soldier stands guard on top of an armored vehicle outside National Stadium in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Nov. 29, 2003. About 100 Afghan women cast their ballots at the stadium for two women delegates from the capital for the loya jirga or grand council, scheduled for next month in Kabul to ratify a new constitution. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



An Afghan soldier guards Kabul's stadium where an assembly for Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Loya Jirga elections is being held on November 29, 2003. About 100 women assembled to elect their delegates for Loya Jirga, or the grand assembly, to be held in mid-December to finalize a draft constitution that will pave the way for presidential elections to be held in mid- 2004. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



U.S. soldiers take their positions outside a house in Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s northeastern province of Kunar in this undated handout photo provided by the U.S. military. U.S. troops are taking part in Operation Mountain Resolve, which was launched earlier this month in Kunar to weed out Islamic militants. REUTERS/Handout



U.S. soldiers prepare to search a house in the northeastern Afghan province of Kunar in an undated handout photograph provided by the U.S. military. U.S. troops are taking part in Operation Mountain Resolve, which was launched earlier this month in Kunar to weed out Islamic militants. REUTERS/Handout



Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites), left., smiles while meeting with U.S. soldiers deployed at Camp Volverine in Kuwait City on Saturday, Nov.29, 2003. Clinton was on a brief visit to Kuwait after spending Thanksgiving with U.S. troops in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and before travelling to Iraq (news - web sites). (AP Photo/Gustavo Ferrari)



One-legged landmine victim Rafiq, 50, stands in front of a mural warning of the dangers of unexploded ordnance in Kabul. After 23 years of war, Afghanistan (news - web sites) remains one of the world's most heavily mined countries and hundreds of people are injured from landmines every month.(AFP/File/Shah Marai)



U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites), center, poses with U.S soldiers, most from New York state, after a Thanksgiving dinner at the military base in Bagram, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003. Clinton promised that America will stand with Afghanistan as it tries to rebuild after a quarter-century of conflict, and warned Taliban rebels that they 'are fighting a losing battle.' (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan President Hamid Karzai, center, flanked by security officials and body guards, inspects the honor guard before offering Eid prayers at presidential palace in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Tuesday, Nov. 25, 2003. Karzai celebrated Eid al-Fitr, the festival marking the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, by saying that he hopes Afghanistan will one day be freed from terrorism and poverty. Afghan Defense Minister Mohammed Fahim is also seen on left. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)







A US soldier stands guard in Iraq (news - web sites). The US plans to relocate troops from South Korea (news - web sites) to duty in Iraq and Afghanistan (news - web sites) as part of a wide reorganization of its 37,000 strong garrison in the country(AFP/File/Ahmad Al-Rubaye)



U.S. soldiers are seen near a wreckage of a helicopter that crashed in Kapisa province, northeast of Kabul November 24, 2003. A helicopter crash in Afghanistan (news - web sites) that killed five soldiers from the U.S.-led force and injured seven appeared to be an accident, witnesses said, although the ousted Taliban claimed to have shot it down. (Ahmad Masood/Reuters)

JF45
12-04-2003, 04:36 PM
Hardly unprovoked attack by someone with an agenda, but a reaction to a few juvenile shots.
Agreed. But instead of posting anything to prove any of them wrong, he decided to join it, which is why I suggested he not start it down that way because of possibility of it blowing up in his face. And yes, I was reading the same thread.

And another predictable answer by Kingpin to weasel around the truth. You've changed your excuses everytime I posted. First when I said there were thousands destroyed, you claimed it never happened. Well I posted the numbers for you. THOUSANDS. Then you wanted to see pictures of destroyed tanks and you got them. All you could do was talk about not knowing what a thousand is. Well 3700 tanks destroyed is thousands. 2400 armored vehicles destroyed is thousands.

Now the crying about not seeing thousands of tanks in a single photo, which I knew you'd say. And the crying about not seeing every single tank accounted as destroyed in a photo, which I knew you'd say. Or that destroyed tanks doesn't prove they were destroyed, which is what you're saying. You just keep making excuses and changing your excuses everytime you're slapped in the face with FACTS.

You wanted proof of thousands destroyed and you got it. You wanted pictures of them destroyed and you got it. Now you've changed your tune AGAIN, and want all thousands of them on photo or you won't believe the numbers. That's just being ignorant. Then you want proof they were destroyed a specific way which was never the point to begin with. You just want another excuse. Well I anticipated that, and several posts back already listed several GROUND battles that had American forces engaging Republican Guard units, you know the guys that don't turn and run at the drop of grenade pin, which resulted in their decimation. Of course, after all this overwhelming proof to my point of thousands of destroyed Soviet supplied equipment, you will make another excuse.


Edit: and as i said before - if someone can't use weapon properly that does not mean that this weapon is bad. This is not Russian problem that Arabs doesn't have balls to fight in conventional war. They just discredit our weapons.
And there you go. Soviet manufactured equipment used by Soviet trained people. Led by a Soviet trained officers corps using Soviet warfare doctrine, employing Soviet created battle plans. Of course, that was never the point to begin with, but as typical you're grasping at any little straw that allows you some small feeling of success.

Go ahead and change your excuses again.

GazB
12-07-2003, 06:06 AM
"Go ahead and change your excuses again."

No, you are right. The first gulf war was WWIII. The Iraqis had all the weapons and men that the Soviets had, and all of the capabilities. It was the fairest comparison of forces and equipment since the germans rolled into Paris.

This simple truth is that the Americans fought on their own terms and the Iraqis let them. They gave the Americans 8 months to move their tanks and equipment in. They fought fairly defencively. The americans fought at night because they knew their night vision equipment would make it one sided, and it did. Exactly what value is such information? Zero!

Is it any use in evaluating what WWIII might have been like in europe? No, absolutely not. You stayed out of Iraqi cities (for reasons now obvious), and you fought in an open desert with total air superiority. It was not even good as an exercise, because it was too easy. Of course the real reason it was too easy was because it was unopposed. If it had happened 20 years earlier and the Russians were fully behind the Iraqis then it wouldn't have been so easy. M60 tanks vs T-62s isn't that great a difference.

By the mid 70s the Iraqis could have bought or been given T-72s vs US M60s... advantage T-72 I believe. The real problem would still have been airpower, but the likely supply from Russia would allow Israel to be heavily hit with scuds and later ballistic missiles that no doubt would have incurred retaliation and no doubt introduced other arab countries into the war.
Of course like in Beruit the US wouldn't have had the bottle to do anything during the cold war. The US could care less about kuwaite anyway(there has been no great drive to give them democracy).

16 OBr SpN
12-07-2003, 07:51 AM
OK I see that our american friends here are trying to use Desert Storm as an example of - "Russian equipment sucks. American rules."

Given the nature of the Desert Storm its an absolutely uncompetent statement. I don't want to go deep into details.

First of all, with the total air superiority, tanks and APC's will be slaughtered no matter what, both Russian or American. Agree? Or did you guys learn to make tanks which can shoot down bombers?

Secondly, during the early stages, americans took out the main radio communication facilities, thus leavig the Iraqi command with no coordination capabilities. When there is no coordination, even the most up to date equipment is worthless. Again, air superiority was a key factor.

BTW, Abrams tank is not as "invulnerable" as some of you guys think. It's actually weaker than one can imagine. This whole propaganda created this image which I think Abrams does not fully deserve. There are actually much better foreign tanks out there.

I saw a video secretly taken on March 28, 2003 in Nasiriyah. 8 Abrams tanks were blasted within 32 minutes. Guess what did the Iraqis use... six of them were taken out by RPG-7's, and one Abrams was taken out by ancient "AT-3 Sagger" ATGM, and one hit an old soviet "TM-72" AT mine. ;) They put a heat sensing detonator and hung the mine on a tree, facing it down. Tank was passing by and a mine reacted to its engine heat. There was a powerful blast which lifted up the tank's nose, and it stopped.
Believe it or not, those tanks burned just like matches. No worse than those Russian tanks on pictures ;)

Again, it all comes down to whoever uses a weapon. In the hands of a professional, even a fork is a weapon of mass destruction. :lol:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

JF45
12-07-2003, 04:22 PM
I say again, for me this was NEVER a US vs. USSR thing. In none of my claims did I ever make a comparison between US tanks and Soviet tanks. My argument, since the beginning and unchanged till now, has always been that thousands were destroyed in the first Gulf War, as opposed to Kingpin's claim that if he didn't believe it, it didn't happen. I don't care about the cheap shots that were taken before I came in, or the arguments of others afterwards. I just warned Kingpin that it could blow back in his face if it came down to throwing pictures up. He wanted proof and I gave it to him.

You can throw up as many damaged and destroyed statistics you want, but it still won't change the fact that thousands of Soviet equipment was destroyed in Desert Storm. If you want to make this into a WW3 representaion, that's your business. The excuses remark was for Kingpin, due to the fact that whenever he saw the facts, he would change his argument again and again. Making this a US vs. Russia thing speaks more of your intent than anything else.


OK I see that our american friends here are trying to use Desert Storm as an example of - "Russian equipment sucks. American rules."
I may not have agreed with everything you've written, 16 OBr SpN, but it still received consideration. Unless you misread what I've written all along, I really expected better from you of all people, than towing this line and making it an ego thing.

16 OBr SpN
12-07-2003, 09:47 PM
and there you go. Soviet manufactured equipment used by Soviet trained people. Led by a Soviet trained officers corps using Soviet warfare doctrine, employing Soviet created battle plans. Of course, that was never the point to begin with, but as typical you're grasping at any little straw that allows you some small feeling of success.

Go ahead and change your excuses again.

I will definitely comment on your post as soon as I get answers on following questions:

What exactly do you know about Soviet warfare doctrine?
And what do you know about Soviet military doctrine as a whole?
According to you, what is the Soviet battleplan?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

aFgHaNibOi
12-08-2003, 01:21 AM
Oh man when I saw this I shot my foot. I can't believe Karzai actually did that...WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE MOTIVE BEHIND THIS? DON'T SAY "GOOD WILL" OR "EID MUBARAK." IF I WAS IN KARZAI'S SPOT, I'D ORDER ALL OF THESE SMELLY PAKIS/FOREIGNERS TO BE SHOT DEAD IN PUBLIC AND I'D TELEVISE IT AND BROADCAST IT ALL OVER THE WORLD ESPECIALLY TO PAKISTAN. THE LAST THING ANYONE NEEDS IS MORE PAKIS RUNNIN' AROUND ALL OVER THE PLACE WITH THEIR RETRO FLEXIVE ENGLISH...GOD DANG PAKIS... :fork:

aFgHaNibOi
12-08-2003, 01:53 AM
Enjoy my amigos. :D It ain't much, but one day when we're better equiped etc., we'll be rollin' into Pakistan to get our land back...Insha'Allah. :roll:

JF45
12-08-2003, 03:42 AM
I will definitely comment on your post as soon as I get answers on following questions:

What exactly do you know about Soviet warfare doctrine?
Some
And what do you know about Soviet military doctrine as a whole?
See above
According to you, what is the Soviet battleplan?
A specific one, or any at random?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN
Comment all you want, but unless you can prove that thousands of pieces of equipment were not destroyed in the first Gulf War, then my point remains: That thousands of tanks, armored vehicles, etc were destroyed in Desert Storm.

As for my quote you are using:
Do you deny that Soviets provided tanks, etc to the Iraqis?
Do you deny Soviet advisors were sent to train Iraqis?
Do you deny the officers corps of the Iraqi Army were trained by Soviets, and some even went to Soviet Union military schools?
Do you deny the Iraqis warfare doctrine was built on the Soviet one?
Do you deny that battle plans for air defense, etc were developed from the advisors?

What does this have to do with World War 3, or how the Soviets would have performed? NOTHING!! You all started this whole comparison/doctrine vs doctrine/bigger dick contest with your "Americans would have suffered the same in that situation" rants. By the way, that still doesn't disprove that thousands of tanks were destroyed in the first Gulf War.

If you choose to continue making this a pissing match on who's got better tanks or doctrine, then go find a 5 year old to argue with. Hypothetical over-analyzing of theories and ego-inflating is best left for officers and REMF's with no self-esteem like Kingpin. I've typed my point over and over again in the plainest English, twice in this post alone, and no one has been able to dispute it.

Kingpin
12-08-2003, 06:28 AM
If you choose to continue making this a pissing match on who's got better tanks or doctrine, then go find a 5 year old to argue with. Hypothetical over-analyzing of theories and ego-inflating is best left for officers and REMF's with no self-esteem like Kingpin. I've typed my point over and over again in the plainest English, twice in this post alone, and no one has been able to dispute it.

Seems you have a lot self-esteem. It sometimes grows into self-admiration. I answer you in following way. Yes we provided Iraqis with arms as long as France, China, South Africa and Germany did this. All soviet made equipment in beginning of 90's become antiquated. Can't say anything about field advisors (suppose there wasn't any in Iraq) but yes they sent officers to study here in SU. I deny that warfare doctrine and air defence were developed by Soviet advisors (but we shouldn't forget that Iraqi officers received soviet view on these questions during study).

But if you want to blame anything soviet for Iraqi loss of desert storm you're completeyly wrong. First of all you should read all threads here about "why arabs lose all wars" and also to remember that third world countries employed western warfare doctrines failed as often as countries employed soviet ones.

As for soviet army itself it took Czechslovakia within 2 days in 1968 and Afganistan - within 2 weeks in 1979.

As for me i don't care which doctrine is better. I care only about loads of **** flying from all direction to my country and my army.

16 OBr SpN
12-08-2003, 08:13 AM
I will definitely comment on your post as soon as I get answers on following questions:

What exactly do you know about Soviet warfare doctrine?
Some
And what do you know about Soviet military doctrine as a whole?
See above
According to you, what is the Soviet battleplan?
A specific one, or any at random?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN
Comment all you want, but unless you can prove that thousands of pieces of equipment were not destroyed in the first Gulf War, then my point remains: That thousands of tanks, armored vehicles, etc were destroyed in Desert Storm.

As for my quote you are using:
Do you deny that Soviets provided tanks, etc to the Iraqis?
Do you deny Soviet advisors were sent to train Iraqis?
Do you deny the officers corps of the Iraqi Army were trained by Soviets, and some even went to Soviet Union military schools?
Do you deny the Iraqis warfare doctrine was built on the Soviet one?
Do you deny that battle plans for air defense, etc were developed from the advisors?

What does this have to do with World War 3, or how the Soviets would have performed? NOTHING!! You all started this whole comparison/doctrine vs doctrine/bigger dick contest with your "Americans would have suffered the same in that situation" rants. By the way, that still doesn't disprove that thousands of tanks were destroyed in the first Gulf War.

If you choose to continue making this a pissing match on who's got better tanks or doctrine, then go find a 5 year old to argue with. Hypothetical over-analyzing of theories and ego-inflating is best left for officers and REMF's with no self-esteem like Kingpin. I've typed my point over and over again in the plainest English, twice in this post alone, and no one has been able to dispute it.

Ooohh.. defensive, aren't we? ;)
On this forum, you don't see me posting things I have no clue of. Why do you think you can make those statements without being challenged? I remember our Polish friends got into the same situation with their "super soldier" Mr. Kossek! They all got very defensive too... and the rest is history :lol:

What makes you think I'm trying to make a "pissing contest"? :lol:
As if I have nothing better to do...

I'm not comparing doctrines at all. All I'm trying to imply is you should know the subject before you make those kinds of statements.

1) You stated that Iraqi tactics were done according to Soviet warfare doctrine. That statement was completely false. You know why? Because, our warfare doctrine is totally different from what Iraqis actually utilized during Desert Storm.
Therefore don't state something if you have no clue of what you're talking about. "Some" knowledge doesn't mean crap. I do know the formula of water - H20, but that doesn't make me a chemistry professor.

2) Give me any Soviet battleplan. I don't care whether it's specific or not. Let's say for example, Russia is at a brink of war. What is our main objective/plan during that stage?
And YES, I deny that Iraqi battle plan was based on our doctrine!

3) Most of the Iraq's brightest officers who were trained in our military schools were executed by Saddam, way before Desert Storm.

4) YES, I completely deny that the battleplans were prepared with the help of our advisors. You want to know why? Because again, Iraqi battleplan wasn't done according to our military doctrine.

Why don't you argue with me, instead of showing your "deep knowledge" to people on this forum who don't have any clue of our military practices? Or is it too hard for you? :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Argyll
12-08-2003, 08:27 AM
Sounds all very much like a pissing contest to me!!
Does anyone remember NATO's and the US claim to have completely destroyed the Yugoslavian Armour,only to see thousands of vehicles pull out of Bosnia?
Re the Highway of death in Basra in 91,correct me if I'm wrong but more than 90% of these vehicles were civilian vehicles,with the odd ZSU23/4 and BRDM thrown in.
There no doubt that a large portion of Armour was destroyed in 91,but many of these would have been decoys too.
I was also under the impression that most if the Iraqi T72's were also made under licence in Iraq,and was it not reported that most of them had been destroyed in 91 to?,only to see a significant number appear in 03

Russian Texan
12-08-2003, 09:23 AM
As for soviet army itself it took Czechslovakia within 2 days in 1968 and Afganistan - within 2 weeks in 1979.

As for me i don't care which doctrine is better. I care only about loads of **** flying from all direction to my country and my army.


First year of USSR in Afganistan (region that presents far more guerilla warfare oportunities than Iraq) - 86 KIA
Coalition forces in Iraq, first eight month - 500+KIA.

To JF45
Actually you are the one who started "pissing contest", you were presented facts and had nothing to respond with but emotions and ignorance.

16 OBr SpN
12-08-2003, 01:43 PM
Sounds all very much like a pissing contest to me!!


Why does it sound like it?

All I'm asking is for him to back his statement about Iraqis using our warfare doctrine. I just want to know how he came to that conclusion.

Pissing consest is when someone states, "mine is better than yours". It is not a case here, because I'm simply arguing his statement, and not even saying that our doctrine is better than theirs. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Argyll
12-08-2003, 02:05 PM
he he no offence meant there 16,I'm tending to side with your views on this one!
I was a MILAN Instructor with the British Army during the 80's and part of my job was to understand and teach the old "Soviet"tactics,used by their Armoured Formations,and whilst it's been a long time ,it's pretty clear that unless you know what your talking about then to say that the Iraqi army during the 91 war ,did indeed employ that tactic,without providing as much as a shred of evidence to back it up,then it does sound like a pissing contest.
See what some people tend to forget as well is that during the Iran-Iraq war the Iraqi Special Forces were also trained by the US Special Forces.

It's all very well saying that 1000's of Iraqi kit was destroyed,but the same kit was said to be destroyed in Yugoslavia,and that was proved to be a lot of ****e!!.......as I also said there's no doubt a significant amount was destroyed,but that was in the Kuwait Theatre of Ops,not so much was destroyed within Iraq itself,as the aim was to remove Saddam from Kuwait,the fact that they also allowed the much vaunted RG to retreat without destroying it,proved to be decisive when the Shia's tried to uprise in the South,where they were brutally put down by the very same armour that was allowed to go free!!!

JF45
12-08-2003, 03:44 PM
So any of you have presented me with facts that thousands of pieces of Soviet equipment wasn't destroyed in the first Gulf War? I still haven't seen it yet.


But if you want to blame anything soviet for Iraqi loss of desert storm you're completeyly wrong.
There you go again. Do you have that little to believe in that you feel every discussion is about you? I've never blamed the Soviets for anything. Only that the Iraqis used your equipment and your warfare doctrine. You started bringing up every little thing to support your claim that thousands of pieces wasn't destroyed. And you failed, yet again.


Seems you have a lot self-esteem. It sometimes grows into self-admiration.
I have enough so that I don't have to revise history in my own mind to feel any worth. Perhaps you should consider building you own when you grow up a little.


Ooohh.. defensive, aren't we?
Not really. But it gets tiring whenever you have to repeat yourself, and others continue to fly off on their own tangents. If you are unable to prove my point wrong, then give it a rest. Oddly enough, you've insulted yourself more than anyone else. Hell, I haven't said one bad thing about the Russians yet. Now, who's defensive? ;)


Therefore don't state something if you have no clue of what you're talking about.
But I guess it's all right for you to "profess your expertise" when talking about ambushes that you have no information or details about. Yet for you, and all your worshippers who bow at your feet, that's gospel. Nice try, but your argument holds no water because I never challenged the details of doctrine.


Pissing consest is when someone states, "mine is better than yours".
Here's a challenge. Go find a single one of my messages that says that. You'll find very quickly that you have been the one arguing against that all along. And it still doesn't disprove my point: that thousands of pieces of Soviet equipment was destroyed in Desert Storm. That's never changed however much you've distorted it so you could take the moral high ground. Too bad it's really a high horse.


To JF45
Actually you are the one who started "pissing contest", you were presented facts and had nothing to respond with but emotions and ignorance.
Russian Texan, show me one fact that proved my point was wrong: that thousands of pieces of Soviet equipment was destroyed in Desert Storm. None of the "facts" was able to dispute it, because none of it ever addressed my point. When I'm challenged, I answer with facts. If the others want to fly off and start throwing up statistics that say Americans had destroyed tanks, well that's their immature ranting. Intersting you'd say that I'm answering with emotion or ignorance considering I'm the only one who brought facts to my arguments. Every one else who's debated it has changed the topic over and over again to clutch at any straw of self-victory. Yet my point stands undisputed. Now, you've jumped in, and added nothing new except some mud slinging that has no relevance to my point. Who's continuing the pissing contest?

I've never argued the whole doctrinal warfare comparison thing, because that was never my point. Yes, the Iraqi's DID follow Soviet doctrine, and it failed for them. Their fault, but nobody ever blamed the Soviets. However, that still doesn't change the facts that they provided for and trained the Iraqis.


It's all very well saying that 1000's of Iraqi kit was destroyed,but the same kit was said to be destroyed in Yugoslavia,and that was proved to be a lot of ****e!!
Of course, those were numbers from the time of the battle. The numbers I've been using from the first Gulf War were verified, not just thrown out. So try again. You'll do better next time. But maybe you should leave the anti-US sentiment behind so you can think less clouded.

I've said my piece. Not a single argument has yet to prove my point wrong. If you want to continue with this go ahead. I'm no longer a part of it. You can say you've won, declare victory, throw in more cheap shots, but unless you bring anything up that proves thousands of tanks, etc were not destroyed in Desert Storm, then you haven't proven me wrong. But if it makes you feel better, then go right ahead, Skippy.[/quote]

Argyll
12-08-2003, 04:01 PM
Tell you what how about you provide us with a complete catalogue of desroyed Iraqi Armour in desert storm and maybe ,you'll have some credence!And when I mean armour I do not mean the single D-30's or the single ZSU-57-2 or the likes.
Unless you were an Iraqi General in Desert storm then how can you possibly say that they followed Soviet Doctrine,I'll also ask you to provide an Example of the said doctrine involving an attack encompassing an Iraqi RG division such as the Battle for 76/73 Easting!!
You are saying that no one has presented fact to you when you have not done so yourself.

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
12-08-2003, 06:03 PM
Well I dont know about you guys but I've been hoping to get some more pictures of Afghanistan, yet somehow this has turned into a Soviet tactics/early Gulf War topic. Anyone got any pics of A-stan for me?

16 OBr SpN
12-08-2003, 07:27 PM
JF45:

"Yes, the Iraqi's DID follow Soviet doctrine, and it failed for them."

- I've asked you several times, WHAT IS the Soviet doctrine? Why don't you want to answer my specific question?

GazB
12-08-2003, 09:06 PM
"I say again, for me this was NEVER a US vs. USSR thing."


So why say this?

"and there you go. Soviet manufactured equipment used by Soviet trained people. Led by a Soviet trained officers corps using Soviet warfare doctrine, employing Soviet created battle plans. Of course, that was never the point to begin with, but as typical you're grasping at any little straw that allows you some small feeling of success. "

Seems to me you are retreating the same way you accuse Kingpin of retreating.

"aFgHaNibOi''

It is strange that the British and the Russians are the Badguys for invading Afghanistan, yet the CIA and Pakistan have done just as many bad things there.



"Do you deny that Soviets provided tanks, etc to the Iraqis?
Do you deny Soviet advisors were sent to train Iraqis?
Do you deny the officers corps of the Iraqi Army were trained by Soviets, and some even went to Soviet Union military schools?
Do you deny the Iraqis warfare doctrine was built on the Soviet one?
Do you deny that battle plans for air defense, etc were developed from the advisors?"

Did the Soviets provide the Iraqis with T-80s and T-64s, or did they just supply cheap T-72s? Of course that design was 20 years old when the Iraqis used it in DS.
Were the Soviet advisors able to fully control the Iraqi army, navy and airforce, or did they just offer advice?
Actually a percentage of the Iraqi Army were trained by the British and quite a bit of support during the iran/iraq war came from the americans.
The Iraqis war doctrine was nothing like the Soviet one. If it had been a Soviet doctrine they would have taken Saudi Arabia as well, or at least ochestrated an uprising in Saudi Arabia. Saddam wasn't expecting the reaction he got to his invasion of Kuwaite... he didn't realise how scared the Americans were of him being so close (and so potentially destabilising) to Saudi Arabia... being so unpredictible, and unlikely to invade Jordon, Iran again, or Syria where do you think he would have expanded to next?

"Do you deny that battle plans for air defense, etc were developed from the advisors? "

The weapons and equipment used by the airdefence units was 1960s equipment. The aircraft were dumbed down export models which the west had already trained against and learned how to beat.

"By the way, that still doesn't disprove that thousands of tanks were destroyed in the first Gulf War. "

It makes that fact meaningless. They might as well have been sand castles the way they were destroyed. In comparison the Israeli defeat of Arab tanks in combat tank to tank was much more meaningful, but even then there were serious differences in training quality and motivation that you really couldn't draw too many conclusion there either.

"If you choose to continue making this a pissing match on who's got better tanks or doctrine, then go find a 5 year old to argue with. "

You were the one that claimed the Iraqi tactics were likely WWIII tactics. Others suggested that Soviet and Russian vehicles were rubbish based on the fact that LGB seemed to be able to take them out in large numbers. But now it was us that brought these things up. Interesting. Begining to wonder why you think we need a 5 year old to discuss this with.

"Only that the Iraqis used your equipment and your warfare doctrine."

That the Iraqis used some Soviet equipment is not in doubt, we are still waiting for you to give evidence of their use of Soviet doctrine.
Being a layman I'd be interested to find out what that is. (I didn't realise the Soviets were so careful as to develop doctrine for fighting in a desert... either that or the Iraqis are using a doctrine formed for fighting in Europe for fighting in the desert.)

"that thousands of pieces of Soviet equipment was destroyed in Desert Storm. "

Thousands of pieces of Iraqi equipment was destroyed in Desert Storm.

"I've never argued the whole doctrinal warfare comparison thing, because that was never my point. Yes, the Iraqi's DID follow Soviet doctrine, and it failed for them. "

Did they follow it exactly, or did they change things? I am pretty sure that in such a fight the Soviets would use chem and bio weapons as well as tactical nuclear devices. How often did the Iraqis use these weapons during DS?

"However, that still doesn't change the facts that they provided for and trained the Iraqis. "

Rubbish. The Iraqis had closer ties to the Americans than you suggest. If they were soviet clones why were most of their airdefence radars French? Why were Mirage F.1 fighters so prominant in their forces? They were building their own rifles, tanks, and starting to build their own aircraft. These were all based on Soviet designs, but the rights to build them were paid for... Australian Steyrs are Australian Steyrs. Iraqi T-72s lacked many features of Russian T-72s and were no where near as capable as Russian T-80s or even T-64s. The tank ammo the Iraqis made themselves was described by one expert as being comparable to training ammo.
But no... these were surrogate Soviet forces... b0ll0cks!

"But maybe you should leave the anti-US sentiment behind so you can think less clouded. "

Ahh, so suggesting the kill figures might be wrong is being anti american, but suggesting that the Iraqis were just following Soviet doctrine with all soviet weapons is not anti soviet?

Russian Texan
12-09-2003, 12:26 AM
JF45

Saying that Iraqi tank = Soviet tank is the same as saying that BMW 323 = M3. Looks appear to be the same but that is where similarities end. GazB explained it very well.
Military doctrine of any country is designed around capabilities of its weaponary in a particular combat theater and skill level of those to use that weaponary . Please explain me how Iraqis could have possibly employed soviet tactics?
Based on your statements I presume that you posses rather deep knowledge of military strategy and tactics, so would you please tell me what were the components of USSR military doctrine and what were the means of its implementation?
I do not mean it to come across as an offensive post but I would like to see whether you are able of defending your statements with facts and their analysis or just with emotions, arrogance and opinions.

Kingpin
12-09-2003, 05:33 AM
2 Argyll:

Question about ATGMs. Did you have chance to compare different ATGMs like MILAN, TOW, Soviet ATs etc.?

Kingpin
12-09-2003, 06:10 AM
This thing rocks! :)

GazB
12-09-2003, 06:34 AM
"This thing rocks!"

The VDV did that first... they mounted all sorts of things on their BMDs... can't remember the number BMD but it is the model without the turret and is longer with an extra wheel on each side that is used for a troop transport. As standard they had AGS-17s, but many lashup mounts were fitted too. Zu-23s were common as were Vasilek 82mm automatic mortars.

Kingpin
12-09-2003, 06:52 AM
"This thing rocks!"

The VDV did that first... they mounted all sorts of things on their BMDs... can't remember the number BMD but it is the model without the turret and is longer with an extra wheel on each side that is used for a troop transport. As standard they had AGS-17s, but many lashup mounts were fitted too. Zu-23s were common as were Vasilek 82mm automatic mortars.

Very useful in mountains

Argyll
12-09-2003, 10:25 AM
Sorry KP we never got to see any other MRATGW sytsem used!!

If I'm also not mistaken the T64 has never been exported by the Soviets,as in my days this was recogned to be the best of all Soviet Tanks,in my last years in AT the T72 was undergoing extensive upgrades along with the Turbine engined T80,which was exported to other countries

JMooch
12-09-2003, 11:13 AM
I'm not getting involved in this pissing contest, but I have one thing to say regarding this statement:

"Did the Soviets provide the Iraqis with T-80s and T-64s, or did they just supply cheap T-72s? Of course that design was 20 years old when the Iraqis used it in DS."

By the time of DS/DS, the basic design of the M1 Abrams was almost 10 years old. Except for improvements in the M1A2, the design itself was not brand new.

Other than that, the statement is totally true, the Soviets sold or supplied the kits for T72M1 (export models) with significantly lower frontal armor protection.

For JF45, you opened the can of worms talking about the doctrine. The Iraqis used an combination of western (US/French/British) and Soviet doctrine.

For KingPin and 16 OBr SpN, JF45's original point, before putting his foot in his mouth with the doctrinal statement, was that thousands of pieces of either Soviet built/supplied equipment was destroyed in DS/DS. That is true, BTW, I have seen the Iraqi armor graveyards near the "Highway of Death" and Udari Range. I didn't see thousands, but I saw enough to convince me that the number reference sounds right.

Take care all,
S/F
Mooch

PS Hey Argyll, what's up? How have you been?

T72 source info:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t72tank.htm

Kingpin
12-09-2003, 11:43 AM
For KingPin and 16 OBr SpN, JF45's original point, before putting his foot in his mouth with the doctrinal statement, was that thousands of pieces of either Soviet built/supplied equipment was destroyed in DS/DS. That is true, BTW, I have seen the Iraqi armor graveyards near the "Highway of Death" and Udari Range. I didn't see thousands, but I saw enough to convince me that the number reference sounds right.


We all agreed that Iraqi lost a lot of their armor. We disagreed about particular numbers.

BTW Kingpin with small "p". Watch your vocabularies for its meaning.

JMooch
12-09-2003, 02:08 PM
Kingpin,
Roger, got that, Kingpin with a small "P" :lol:
Just kidding.
As for the actual no s**t amount of Soviet manufactured/distributed equipment destroyed in Iraq, I don't think you will find an acurate open source number. I tend to lean torwards the 3000+ mark, myself. Based soley on my experiences and opinion.
I've got mine and you've got yours,
S/F
Mooch

Argyll
12-09-2003, 02:24 PM
Are you including just Tanks and APC,and other vehicles or are you meaning all equipment to include Gaz trucks,D-30's ZSU 57/2's etc?

JMooch
12-09-2003, 02:38 PM
Argyll,
Just armor to include:
tanks
APC's
armored recce vehicles
SP Arty (ie. 2S1, etc.) vehicles based on armored chassis.
SP AA (ie. ZSU-23-4, etc) vehicles based on armored chassis.
S/F
Mooch

Argyll
12-09-2003, 03:01 PM
Damn that's a lot then eh?
Then again it sounds like just a few divisions worth,it would be interesting to get the number of MBT's

Kingpin
12-10-2003, 01:44 AM
As for the actual no s**t amount of Soviet manufactured/distributed equipment destroyed in Iraq, I don't think you will find an acurate open source number. I tend to lean torwards the 3000+ mark, myself. Based soley on my experiences and opinion.
I've got mine and you've got yours,
S/F
Mooch

Main discussion was not even about numbers. JF45 insisted that they lose this war because of using soviet doctrine, soviet weapons and soviet advisors. we all tried to explain why he is wrong.

Seraphim
12-10-2003, 01:34 PM
US soldiers on patrol in Afghanistan (news - web sites). The US admitted that six Afghan children were killed in a bombing raid aimed at Islamic extremists -- the second assault within a 24-hour period to result in child casualties.(AFP/File/Sardar Ahmad)



An Afghan miner searches for land mine on a road in the Parwan province, 80 kilometers ( 50 miles) north of Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites) on Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. (AP Photo/Amir Shah)



Afghans walks past a column of transporters laden with heavy weapons inched along a treacherous road leading out of the Panjshir Valley on its way to a compound of the new Afghan National Army near the capital Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. Missiles, tanks and rockets rolled out of the valley stronghold of one of Afghanistan's biggest warlords Wednesday, the latest step toward disarming the unruly factions who have fed more than 20 years of war. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



An Afghan soldier sits atop a missile laden vehicle inched along a treacherous road leading out of the Panjshir Valley on its way to a compound of the new Afghan National Army near the capital Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. Missiles, tanks and rockets rolled out of the valley stronghold of one of Afghanistan's biggest warlords Wednesday, the latest step toward disarming the unruly factions who have fed more than 20 years of war. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



A column of transporters laden with heavy weapons inched along a treacherous road leading out of the Panjshir Valley on its way to a compound of the new Afghan National Army near the capital Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. Missiles, tanks and rockets rolled out of the valley stronghold of one of Afghanistan's biggest warlords Wednesday, the latest step toward disarming the unruly factions who have fed more than 20 years of war. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



U.S. soldiers stand alert on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003, at the venue of loya jirga, a historic constitutional council that will debate a 50-page draft constitution this weekend in Kabul Afghanistan (news - web sites). The loya jirga is considered a cornerstone event in Afghanistan's long path to recovery after U.S.-led forces ousted the hardline Taliban regime two years ago. (AP Photo/Stephen Graham)



Afghan defense ministry troops drive a truck carrying a Scud missile along a road in Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Panjsher valley, December 10, 2003. The area's dominant Jamiat faction began handing over heavy weapons as part of a government disarmament drive. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Afghan defense ministry troops walk past trucks carrying missiles along a road in Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Panjsher valley, December 10, 2003. The area's dominant Jamiat faction began handing over heavy weapons as part of a government disarmament drive. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Soldiers of the Afghan National Army take positions in downtown Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), as security is beefed up ahead of Loya Jirga, elections for constitution of Afghanistan, Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. The loya jirga is considered a cornerstone event in Afghanistan's long path to recovery after U.S.-led forces ousted the hardline Taliban regime two years ago. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)



An Afghan woman clad in traditional veil burqa makes her way between two soldiers of the Afghan National Army as security is beefed up in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), ahead of Loya Jirga, elections for constitution of Afghanistan, Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. The loya jirga is considered a cornerstone event in Afghanistan's long path to recovery after U.S.-led forces ousted the hardline Taliban regime two years ago. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)



Soldiers of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) distribute copies of the newspaper Sadai-i-Azadi (Voice of Freedom) published by ISAF carrying stories about Loya Jirga, elections for constitution of Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003 in downtown Kabul, Afghanistan. The loya jirga is considered a cornerstone event in Afghanistan's long path to recovery after U.S.-led forces ousted the hardline Taliban regime two years ago. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)



Afghans jostle for a copy of newspaper Sadai-i-Azadi (Voice of Freedom) published by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) that carries stories about Loya Jirga, elections for constitution of Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003 in downtown Kabul, Afghanistan. The loya jirga is considered a cornerstone event in Afghanistan's long path to recovery after U.S.-led forces ousted the hardline Taliban regime two years ago. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)



The US military did kill six children in a US air raid in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites) last weekend, a military spokesman confirmed, the second such attack within 24 hours in which children died(AFP/File/Shah Marai)



An unidentified German soldier from the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) talks to an Afghan boy during a patrol in Kabul, December 9, 2003. Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s security has eroded to the point that global efforts to rescue it after two decades of war could fail unless nations expand their role there, a U.N. report said on Monday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan soldier stands guard at a checkpoint in Kabul December 9, 2003. Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s security has eroded to the point that global efforts to rescue it after two decades of war could fail unless nations expand their role there, a U.N. report said on December 8. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters



An Afghan soldier stands guard outside the site of an enormous tent put up for delegtes to form a new constitution northwest of Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2003. A historic gathering to ratify a new constitution for this war-ravaged country has been delayed for several days to give delegates time to reach the capital, a constitutional council spokesman said Tuesday. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



An Afghan soldier stands guard near Baghe-e-Bala mosque in Kabul December 9, 2003. The Taliban and its militant allies were likely to step up attacks in Afghanistan (news - web sites) in coming days in an attempt to disrupt a major political gathering to thrash out details of a new constitution, the U.S. warned on Tuesday. Around 500 delegates will gather in Kabul this weekend for a Loya Jirga or grand assembly, which is expected to take several weeks to finalize a constitution to take Afghanistan to its first-ever presidential elections next year. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters



An Afghan soldier stands guard at the entrance of an enormous tent put up for the delegates to form a new constitution in northwest of Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2003. A historic gathering to ratify a new constitution for this war-ravaged country has been delayed for several days to give delegates time to reach the capital, a constitutional council spokesman said Tuesday. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan fighters take part in a parade during the disarming ceremony in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2003. Two thousand Afghan fighters paraded for the last time Tuesday, as a much-delayed effort to rid the country of warring factions reached the Afghan capital. Russian made tanks are seen in the background. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan fighters shout slogans while taking part in a parade as a U.S. soldier stands guard on a roof top, during the disarming ceremony in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2003. Two thousand Afghan fighters paraded for the last time Tuesday, as a much-delayed effort to rid the country of warring factions reached the Afghan capital. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan Defense Minister Mohammad Qaseem Fahim inspects disarmed militiamen in Kabul December 9, 2003. Around 2,000 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the latest phase of an ambitious disarmament program. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Disarmed Afghan militiamen march in Kabul December 9, 2003. Around 2,000 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the latest phase of an ambitious disarmament program in the Afghan capital Kabul on Tuesday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood


12your old Rambo


An Afghan policeman stands guard as seized drugs are burned in Kabul. The security chiefs of six former Soviet republics said they intended to fight against drug trafficking from Afghanistan (news - web sites) at a meeting of the Collective Security Treaty Organization in the Tajik capital Dushanbe(AFP/File/Jewel Samad)



Two British soldiers of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) patrol with an Afghan soldier in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Monday, Dec. 8, 2003. ISAF peacekeeping soldiers will assist Afghan security authorities to secure Loya Jirga, or Grand Assembly, which will be held this week in Kabul, ISAF spokesman said. (AP Photo / Xinhua, Wang Lei)



A British soldier of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) patrols with an Afghan soldier (Front) in Kabul Monday, Dec. 8, 2003. ISAF peacekeeping soldiers will assist Afghan security authorities to secure Loya Jirga, or Grand Assembly, which will be held this week in Kabul, ISAF spokesman said. (AP Photo / Xinhua, Wang Lei)



Afghan security officers inspect a bomb site after an explosion in Kandahar.(AFP/File/Ahmed Maqsood)



An Afghan woman clad in a burqa walks past a soldier in Kabul on December 7, 2003. U.S. forces killed nine children in a weekend air strike they said was meant for an Afghan guerrilla commander. The children were playing in the walled compound of a house at Makur, 50 miles southwest of the town of Ghazni when the U.S. A-10 aircraft attacked with gunfire. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters


Secret Squirrel to the right


US Army soldiers stand guard as a man rides a bicycle on a street in Kandahar. The US military faced mounting criticism as it began an investigation into the accidental killing of nine children in an attack on an alleged terrorist in Afghanistan (news - web sites).(AFP/Maqsood Ghayal)



U.S. soldiers sit guard outside the mud house which locals said belonged to Mullah Wazir in the village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of Mullah Wazir, a 'known terrorist' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Some Afghan militiamen wait for disarmament in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. About 1,000 soldiers in Kabul Province have begun to submit their weapons to the United Nations (news - web sites) Development Program (UNDP) under a disarmament program before the forthcoming Loya Jirgah (Grand Assembly) meeting. (AP Photo/Xinhua, Wang Lei)



Afghan girls walk past the graves of nine children killed in a U.S. air strike, at a local cemetery in village Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of a 'known terrorist' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. Clothes of the children are seen placed on graves. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Sakhi Jan, right, sits next to caps and shoes belonging to some of the nine children killed during a U.S. warplane attack, at the site of the attack in the village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. The American warplane was targeting Mullah Wazir, once a local commander for the hard-line Islamic militia. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



A U.S. soldier, foreground, take a nap as others sit guard near the house, which locals said belonged to Mullah Wazir in the village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of Mullah Wazir, a 'known terrorist,' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



An Afghan shows the marbles nine children were playing with before they were killed in a U.S. air strike, in the village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of a 'known terrorist' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



U.S. soldiers sit outside the mud house which locals say belonged to Mullah Wazir in the village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of Wazir, a 'known terrorist,' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan men stand next to the scattered shoes of nine children at the scene of a U.S. air strike, in the village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. Children's hats and shoes littered the bloody field cratered by gunfire Sunday after a U.S. airstrike, aimed at a wanted Taliban commander, mistakenly killed nine children in an Afghan mountain village. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan men walk past the graves of nine children killed in a U.S. air strike at a local cemetery in village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of a 'known terrorist' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. Clothes and shoes of the children are seen placed on graves. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



Afghan men pray next to the graves of nine children killed in a U.S. air strike at a local cemetery in village of Hutala, in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), Sunday, Dec. 7, 2003. A U.S. warplane in pursuit of a 'known terrorist' attacked a village in eastern Afghanistan, Saturday, mistakenly killing nine children, officials said Sunday. Clothes and shoes of the children are seen placed on graves. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)



An Afghan boy walks past a damaged car after an explosion in Kandahar city, on December 6, 2003. A bomb blast in the main market of the southern Afghan city of Kandahar on Saturday wounded at least 18 people, and president Hamid Karzai called it a 'terrorist' attempt to disrupt a key constitutional assembly. REUTERS/Stringer



Afghan women clad in a burqas walk past as a soldier, standing guard in Kabul, December 7, 2003. Two Indians working on a U.S.-funded project to reconstruct an Afghan highway have been kidnapped by suspected Taliban guerillas in the same area where a Turkish engineer was abducted in October, officials said on Sunday. So too, Aircraft from the U.S.-led military force killed nine children in an attack in the south on Sunday, the latest civilians killed accidentally by U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan (news - web sites). REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan man lines up to hand over his weapons during a disarmament program in Kabul, December 7, 2003. Around 200 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the Afghan capital of Kabul on Sunday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan man lines up to hand over his weapons during a disarmament program in Kabul, December 7, 2003. Around 200 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the Afghan capital of Kabul on Sunday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan worker arranges rocket propelled grenade launchers that were turned in during a disarmament program in Kabul, December 7, 2003. About 200 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the Afghan capital of Kabul on Sunday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Afghan men wait to be disarmed in Kabul, December 7, 2003. Around 200 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the Afghan capital of Kabul on Sunday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



Afghan men wait to be disarmed in Kabul, December 7, 2003. Around 200 Afghan militiamen handed in their guns in the Afghan capital of Kabul on Sunday. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



A Harrier jet takes off. The US military faced mounting criticism as it began its investigation into the accidental killing of nine children in an air attack on an alleged terrorist in Afghanistan (news - web sites).(AFP/File/Tauseef Mustafa)



Afghan security officers inspect a damaged car after a bomb blast in Kandahar. At least 15 people were injured by the blast in the crowded centre of the southern city(AFP/File/Ahmed Maqsood)



American soldiers in the Kandahar region. At least 10 Afghans were injured in a bomb blast in the crowded centre of the southern city of Kandahar which police blamed on Taliban militants, police and witnesses said.(AFP/File/Kamal Kishore)



Ammunition is shown in this December 5, 2003 handout photograph provided by the U.S. military near Gardez. Coalition forces lead by the United States raided a compound and the caches were immediately destroyed on location. Picture taken on December 5, 2003. REUTERS/Handout



An Afghan soldier stands guard at a checkpoint in Kabul on December 5, 2003. Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Taliban guerillas have threatened to step up attacks ahead of the traditional Loya Jirga grand assembly this month to approve a new constitution, and said those attending deserved to be killed. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan soldier stands guard on top of an armored vehicle in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Saturday, Dec. 6, 2003. A bomb exploded in a bazaar in southern Afghan city of Kandahar Saturday, injuring about 20 people, at least three of them seriously, officials said. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

Kingpin
12-11-2003, 02:08 AM
Thanks for pics!

These transporters should be at least 30 y/o :o)

Or second variant - abs. new from Russian reserves stock. :)

Seraphim
12-12-2003, 11:48 PM
U.S. army sergeant Ryan F. Leonard, of the 10th Mountain Brigade Combat Observation Lazing Team mans the 240B machine gun mounted on a truck while a CH-47 Chinook helicopter is seen in the background in Paktika province in Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 3, 2003. Bravo Company 1/87 Infantry 10th Mountain division was operating as part of Operation Mountain Avalanche. (AP Photo/U.S. Army, Ryan C. Creel)



Afghan soldiers point out landmines near the meeting place of the traditional grand council, or Loya Jirga, in Kabul, Friday, Dec. 12, 2003. Security has been tightened in the capital as local police found the landmines on the way to the meeting place. The historic council set to decide on a new Afghan constitution has been delayed for the second time in less than a week, officials said Friday. (AP Photo/Xinhua, Wang Lei)





Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s flag flutters in the wind as a soldier stands guard atop an armored vehicle in Kabul, Dec. 12, 2003. Vote buying and intimidation have marred a landmark assembly supposed to decide on a new constitution, boding ill for elections supposed to be held next year, Human Rights Watch said Friday. The start of the Loya Jirga, or Grand Assembly, was delayed until Sunday, amid protracted wrangling over sweeping powers demanded by President Hamid Karzai. Photo by Ahmad Masood/Reuters



Two Afghan soldiers guard the Loya Jirga (national assembly) compound in Kabul. Men, women, war heroes and tribal elders will begin thrashing out the draft of Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s first post-Taliban constitution in Kabul.(AFP/Shah Marai)



Final touches for Saturday's loya jirga are in progress at the vicinity of the venue in Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Friday, Dec. 12, 2003. The loya jirga, or a grand council, to discuss draft constitution for Afghanistan on Saturday. The loya jirga is considered a cornerstone event in Afghanistan's long path to recovery after U.S.-led forces ousted the hardline Taliban regime two years ago. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)



Afghan soldiers stand guard as women clad in burqas walk past in Kabul on December 11, 2003. Afghanistan (news - web sites) heads into a crucial national meeting to clear the way for free elections under a cloud, with the Taliban spreading fear through large parts of the country and U.S. forces embarrassed by the deaths of 15 children. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan soldier mans a checkpoint in Kabul on December 11, 2003. Afghanistan (news - web sites) heads into a crucial national meeting to clear the way for free elections under a cloud, with the Taliban spreading fear through large parts of the country and U.S. forces embarrassed by the deaths of 15 children. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood



An Afghan boy with his donkey, walks past a Russian made artillery gun, travels along a treacherous road leading out of the Panjshir Valley on its way to a compound of the new Afghan National Army near the capital Kabul, Afghanistan (news - web sites), Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003. Missiles, tanks and rockets rolled out of the valley stronghold of one of Afghanistan's biggest warlords Wednesday, the latest step toward disarming the unruly factions who have fed more than 20 years of war. (AP Photo/Aijaz Rahi)

aFgHaNibOi
12-26-2003, 07:10 PM
Nice pictures. Thanks bro! ;)

Skullknight
01-10-2004, 02:28 AM
Refurbished T-62

aFgHaNibOi
02-01-2004, 10:54 PM
Refurbished T-62





Sweet. Thanks. ;) There's another site, I'll show you, where there's a bunch of pictures of a parade...

http://www.rasuli.com

Marmot1
02-01-2004, 11:33 PM
Refurbished T-62





Sweet. Thanks. ;) There's another site, I'll show you, where there's a bunch of pictures of a parade...

http://www.rasuli.com



Look how better thy look in standaized uniforms if you compare this to the rags they weared before... I hope afganistan would recover from 25y war... BTW I recently found in my home an AFGHANISTAN NATIONAL ATLAS in english and second copy in Dari... I asked my whater hot this stuff get to my house and my father stated that in 1978 his company (he is cartographer) prepared ANA but they were never sendt to Afghanistan becouse russian inasion so 200copies were in my father company warehouse but in october 2001 my father phoned US ambasy in poland ad asked themn if they are interested in it??? response they ordered one..... and next week they have send truck and ordered all remaining copies :-) paying 100$ each :-D and then ordered reprint.... my copy is the only existing Dari copy and my english copy is one of 200 orginal atlases prepared for afghan goverment... currently reprint have been delivered and another reprint was ordered by polish goverment as a gift to afghan goverment... sometimes it gives you profit if you keep something for 25 yeas (NOTE: there is so far no newer version than those prepared by my father company) Also I have a bagdad map in scale 1:500 (yep you are right 1:500 not 5000 but 500) if any of you have any idea on maps you know what this means.... If you do not belive i can take a digital photo and send it to you...

mustamato
02-01-2004, 11:38 PM
What kind of missile (unguided rocket?) is that?

GazB
02-02-2004, 07:02 PM
Your link is broken... can you describe them?