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ogukuo72
11-25-2003, 09:09 AM
US civil rights groups accuse Bush govt of engaging in Orwellian tactics
By Simon Marks, Channel NewsAsia's US Bureau Chief

WASHINGTON : Civil rights groups in the United States are accusing the Bush administration of engaging in Orwellian tactics, after a leading American newspaper revealed that the FBI has been spying extensively on the country's anti-war movement.

According to the New York Times, the 'Big Brother' is watching - in the form of FBI agents who are reportedly collecting data on America's anti-war movement in a bid to keep tabs on what the agency describes as anarchists and "extremist elements".

It is an intelligence gathering effort that is also utilising the resources of local police departments all over the country, said the report.

They have been urged to report any suspicious activity to the bureau's anti-terrorism squad, and many of them have done so.

Allan Lichtman, a professor of History at the American University, said: "If this report is true, I shudder for the future of this country."

"This country is great because we tolerate diversity, we tolerate dissent, we are a pluralistic country. We don't use the police as a means of controlling our politics," he said.

The move by the FBI appears to have been sparked in part by the violence four years ago at a World Trade Organisation meeting in Seattle.

The city's police were almost over-run by anti-globalisation demonstrators who for the first time had organised in advance by using the Internet to their advantage.

Now, the Internet is in the FBI's sights.

The bureau is said to be monitoring Web pages that serve only to recruit protesters to attend lawful demonstrations against US government policies.

For many, the monitoring is an echo of a former time in Washington.

"The raw harsh unpleasant fact is that Communism is an issue," said Senator Joseph McCarthy on November 24, 1953.

It was exactly 50 years ago when Senator Joseph McCarthy engaged in a witch-hunt against Communists and others accused of "un-American" activities.

But today's FBI does have its defenders here.

The Heritage Foundation's Paul Rosenzweig said: "The FBI can appropriately investigate people who destroy property, injure people and potentially are terrorists cloaked in the mantle of protest groups, while at the same time, respecting First Amendment liberties. I think we can do both."

This isn't the first time the Bush administration has been accused of playing fast-and-loose with America's constitutionally-guaranteed liberties.

The American left has long been convinced that President George W Bush has used the attacks of September 11th as an excuse to crack down on freedoms in USA.

The latest report by the New York Times, coming at the start of the US presidential election campaign, could provide Mr Bush's Democratic Party opponents with an issue to turn on the White House. - CNA




An interesting bit of news from my local TV news, quoting the New York Times. Note the use of that very 'cultured' term "Orwellian tactics". Seriously, how many people still talk like that nowadays?

I would like to make two points:

First, during the days of the civil rights struggle by Martin Luther King and the anti-colonial struggle by Gandhi, the protesters were peacful. They chose to break unjust laws, and were fully prepared to be arrested, beaten or much worse. They were brave men and women.

The protesters nowadays are noisy, but they want to play the game without following the rules. They are like spoilt children who behaved badly but fully expect the adults to let them off with only a light slap. They seem to believe that the police should let them do whatever they please, and they should be allowed to do whatever they want. There's three words they should learn: "Adult supervision required."

Second, Joe McCarthy was a blackguard. But that doesn't mean that the FBI investigation into left-wing activities in the 1950's was wrong. One thing has nothing to do with the other. As it turned out, according to the VERONA signals, some of those investigated by the FBI and who had their careers ruined, really were Soviet agents.

WARPIG
11-25-2003, 09:25 AM
The Constitution gives every American the inalienable right to make a damn fool of himself.
John Ciardi (1916 - 1986)Funny how many people excercise that right.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
Soren Kierkegaard (1813 - 1855)

I like to use quotes from the past. It just shows that even in modern times with modern situations..people can still be counted on to act the same.

Saranof
11-25-2003, 09:54 AM
The thing I have against the investigations against the alleged "communists" is that most people probly don't even no what communism is.
I doubt McCarthy ever actually read the Capital (Marx)

Marshall
11-25-2003, 10:05 AM
Well, I know one thing...

The US are going to kick Eurasia's ASS!

:D

Edit: Spelling. (Give me a break. It was 4 AM or so when I posted that.)

duck
11-25-2003, 10:26 AM
Is quicking *ss allowed in Utah?

Marshall
11-25-2003, 10:47 AM
Only during the winter olympics.

PAK
11-25-2003, 12:58 PM
An interesting bit of news from my local TV news, quoting the New York Times. Note the use of that very 'cultured' term "Orwellian tactics". Seriously, how many people still talk like that nowadays?

I would like to make two points:

First, during the days of the civil rights struggle by Martin Luther King and the anti-colonial struggle by Gandhi, the protesters were peacful. They chose to break unjust laws, and were fully prepared to be arrested, beaten or much worse. They were brave men and women.

The protesters nowadays are noisy, but they want to play the game without following the rules. They are like spoilt children who behaved badly but fully expect the adults to let them off with only a light slap. They seem to believe that the police should let them do whatever they please, and they should be allowed to do whatever they want. There's three words they should learn: "Adult supervision required."

Second, Joe McCarthy was a blackguard. But that doesn't mean that the FBI investigation into left-wing activities in the 1950's was wrong. One thing has nothing to do with the other. As it turned out, according to the VERONA signals, some of those investigated by the FBI and who had their careers ruined, really were Soviet agents.

I always laugh, when I hear or read about those "attempts on freedom", in USA, or GB. Issue of identity cards, now gathering informations people whose protest usually turns into violence.... When (month ago, or two) one guy was arrested, because of laying on the pavement, and blocking somebody's garage - he was hailed (by some groups) as a "martyr of freedom of speech".!!! :cantbeli:
Sometimes I think, that you Americans, have two much freedom. In modern history, you never really fought it, for your own freedom. You weren't occupied, you didn't have a governement imposed on you by occupiers, you weren't governed in semi dicatorial way for some 50ty years. And maybe this is the source of those distortions, described above.
Of course, this doesn't apply to everyone. But there are people, who thinks, that their freedom is endangered, when police forces try to gather informations on them, when they are arrested because of breaking law during protests......
I think it's just funny for people from Central and Eastern Europe. They had far bigger "problems" with their freedom

Roger Rabbit
11-25-2003, 01:01 PM
I don't see the problem with ID cards. If your not doing anything wrong your ok. It means people who aren't underage but look underage and don't have a driving lisence can drink in pubs etc. Would be an alternate to using your passport for ID clearances. Its another piece of ID. Its not like the government could actually monitor your every move using them, unless of course they put a homing becon inside every one of them or made you use them to buy certain stuff.

Mr Gently Benevolent
11-25-2003, 01:16 PM
As a citizen of the most watched country in the world I have no problem with massive CCTV coverage or ID cards you do not notice it unless you are up to no good. I think Americans should embrace total surveillance, my only gripe is that the new CCTV system in my town is hardwired so no new interception gear for me this year.

budanski
11-25-2003, 01:49 PM
This was bound to happen ;)

Vigilante Drivers Disable British Speed Cameras (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200310\FOR20031015h.html)
London's Answer to Superman (http://www.anglegrinderman.co.uk/)
Speed Cameras (http://www.roadracers.co.uk/cameras-1.htm)

usa320
11-25-2003, 03:24 PM
Im with rupert...

Smart ID cards are a great idea.

No more seperate cards for Liscense and Social security ect... All on one.

AS long as you have nothing to hide, then i dont see how it could be a problem.

martinexsquaddie
11-26-2003, 06:14 AM
Problems with Id cards : I don't want the hassle of carrying an ID card why the hell should I carry Id for walking around my own country?
Enough wannabe dictaors in this country as is.
Waste of time and money NI had Id cards they really stopped terrorism :|
illegal immagrants work on building sites and cash in hand for farmers etc these guys are really going to start asking for Id cards.
Now we move on to the IT side of things
UK plc does'nt have a great record of pulling off Massive IT projects
Security this database needs to be accurate. The firms that will get this project are the same Heros who did such a stand up job with Air traffic control Criminal records Bureau DSS CSA Passports and everyones favorite the army pay office :(
Biometrics just don't work well enough plenty of false postives Face recognition software is still years away from being usaable read some of the IT news sites for the truth about its value at airports suggestion compare with a bannana in CQB
ID used to get super Id card will be birth certificate ever read Day of the jackal ?if you have a birth certifcate you can get a super Biometric ID card.
Apathy british people won't rush to get one if the goverment try to compel people to get them. Well the polltax will look like a damp squid as far as I know this is a free country. I won't carry an ID card and I know a hell of a lot of people who won't either.
To sum up its a waste of money
it won't really aid the police
the Technical side of things is doubtful
The great british public will either actively resisit or be too apathetic to get one
the primary source of Id information is already insecure so making it easy to get a fake Id.
Terrorists operated succesfully in mainland Europe and gained legal entry to the USA so how would an ID card stop them?

wholagun
11-26-2003, 06:18 AM
AS long as you have nothing to hide, then i dont see how it could be a problem.

Hear, Hear. I support you on that 100%


Just thought I'd throw up a flag here, this could lead down a slippery slope. Costs vs benifits. Freedom for security, but to what extent.

martinexsquaddie
11-26-2003, 07:30 AM
so as you've nothing to hide you won't mind being stoped at a checkpoint
every 250 yds
reporting to the police your every movement and generaly having all your personal info accessable by police, security forces ,civil servants politicans
and trusted 3rd parties who might want to send you especially targeted offers?
This is big brothers dream imagine what insurance salesman could do with this stuff plus the shear about of hasle you could get epecially when someone messes up and your name gets linked to terrorists or peace protestors and then get flogs off. your never escape amnesty and greenpeace begging letters through the post and your never get that high speed job with the tight black assualt suit :roll: you won't even know youve been labelled a subversive.

ogukuo72
11-26-2003, 09:26 AM
What is needed is balance - between the rights of the individual for privacy and civic liberties, and the communities need for peace and security. We can't all the way to the other extreme and have a Stalinist regime. On the other hand, we can't go all the other way, and let misguided self-righteous individuals with a messianic complex run around making trouble.

You know what Spiderman said : With great power comes great responsibilities.

Perhaps we can add: with great freedom comes great responsibilities.

martinexsquaddie
11-26-2003, 09:47 AM
good post

can anyone explain to me how an ID card can stop terrorism? anyone?

wholagun
11-26-2003, 10:15 AM
so as you've nothing to hide you won't mind being stoped at a checkpoint
every 250 yds
reporting to the police your every movement and generaly having all your personal info accessable by police, security forces ,civil servants politicans
and trusted 3rd parties who might want to send you especially targeted offers?
This is big brothers dream imagine what insurance salesman could do with this stuff plus the shear about of hasle you could get epecially when someone messes up and your name gets linked to terrorists or peace protestors and then get flogs off. your never escape amnesty and greenpeace begging letters through the post and your never get that high speed job with the tight black assualt suit :roll: you won't even know youve been labelled a subversive.


That would be the slippery slope I was refering too. That is too far, having an ID card ok, but if you get that you can run into problems such as the ones you refered but too, but what you said is a bit extreme.

Roger Rabbit
11-26-2003, 11:48 AM
Good points Martin. To be totally honest i used a driving lisence as an ID card. I have no problems with it, it means if i need proof of age, identity or what not then i can use it. An offical government ID card would enable people with driving lisences to do the same without their ID card being thought to be a fake.

As for stopping terrorism then an ID card would do zilch.

usa320
11-26-2003, 12:13 PM
reporting to the police your every movement and generaly having all your personal info accessable by police, security forces ,civil servants politicans


Not sure about whereever the hell you come from, but in the US the Police and national security services can get access to your personal information already....

And we all carry around ID cards already- they are called Drivers Liscense. I say get rid of them and throw everything onto one card, and check these cards at places that would likely be targets for terrorists. (read: airports)

martinexsquaddie
11-26-2003, 05:00 PM
what the hi-tech wankers want is high tech card that actually holds the record on the card.
But if you look at the history of Big goverment IT projects its not impressive.
the basic problem is you rock up to the police station to get your shiny new id card you need two bits of ID say your birth certificate and one other. they still have'nt solved the problem highlighted in day of the jackal so essentially the ID is fairly worthless as a way of combatting crime.
there is no killer app why a citizen would want to carry one

California Joe
11-26-2003, 05:07 PM
I have a high clearance because of my job, we have smart cards, spin dial locks and pin numbers on all the doors, fingerprint password identfiers for our computers and camera's everywhere. It's a pain in the arse. If I go in the bathroom and touch I'll probably end up on the net. ;)

martinexsquaddie
11-26-2003, 05:17 PM
they can probably work for a small organisation but nation wide not a hope in hell :(

California Joe
11-26-2003, 05:21 PM
You're right. It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much to remember for your average bear.