Boxer MRAV

[-Max-]

The future APC of the German and Dutch armies :











Specifications

Crew : 2
Cruise Speed : 80 kph, 50 mph
Height : 2.4 m, 8-ft
Length : 7.9 m, 26-ft
Max Range : 1,050 km, 567 nm
Max Speed : 103 kph, 64 mph
Max Weight : 33,000 kg, 72,751-lb
Weight (Empty) : 25,000 kg, 55,115-lb
Passengers : 9
Payload : 8,000 kg, 17,637-lb
Power : 710 shp
Span : 3 m, 10-ft
Wheels : 8


Requirement is for 1,000 vehicles for Germany and 384 for the Netherlands.

[sp2c]

maybe for the Netherlands

now that the Brits pulled out it's all pretty vague, nobody knows what's going to happen and nobody knows when it's going to happen.

btw there are better pictures on these boards though, I'll look for them in a minute ... she looks a bit different nowadays (still a massively huge bitch though ;))

[Harrelson]

does it have any weapons or is it just a personnel carrier

[Luno]

Great pictures and that’s a smart concept the modular design :D Hägglunds is working with a similar vehicle called SEP (Spitterskyddad Enhets Platform) Modular Armoured Tactical System

SEP
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sep/

[Frost]

The first Boxer command vehicle will enter servie with the Gele Rijders in 2007.

[sp2c]

it's just the grenade launcher at this point (if the Netherlands still gets it it'll probably be outfitted with a .50 machinegun).

And as said, it's modulair so it'll probably get some mission specific modules with more (or less) weapon systems. I'd like to see a lightweight howitzer module and sime kind of chaingun (as big as possible :)) for a wheeled fighting vehicle kinda thing and there's allready the ambulance and command versions

and more bigger/better p-) pics from the ever awesome

http://data.primeportal.net/

[AVZ]

But it is still preverred by soldiers/scientists bcause of it's superior armor in comparison to the Stryker. Years ago germans were laughed at because of it's heavy weight!! Now it became clear that this was a wise design when dealing with RPG/IED. I don't say it can hold RPG but it's better (protected) than the ordinary Stryker vehicle.

[-Max-]

maybe for the Netherlands

now that the Brits pulled out it's all pretty vague, nobody knows what's going to happen and nobody knows when it's going to happen.


Didnt know that.

Damn Brits. They always join a program, pull out and then put the whole program in jeopardy. First, there was the Trigat anti-tank missile then the Horizon frigates, now the Boxer. Who is next ? The Eurofighter and the A400M ? :|

[caleb]

thank you so much for the kickass pics, sp2c. BOXER pics are so unbelievable hard to obtain ( at least for me )

[sp2c]

thank primeportal :hug:

[-Max-]

caleb wrote :

thank you so much for the kickass pics, sp2c. BOXER pics are so unbelievable hard to obtain ( at least for me )

x2.

Thanks, sp2c. :)

[sp2c]

But it is still preverred by soldiers/scientists bcause of it's superior armor in comparison to the Stryker. Years ago germans were laughed at because of it's heavy weight!! Now it became clear that this was a wise design when dealing with RPG/IED. I don't say it can hold RPG but it's better (protected) than the ordinary Stryker vehicle.

yeah well we laugh at it too because she really is a huuuuuge bitch :)
But if you must have a wheeled apc then yeah I'd go for the bigger stable one ... Boxer should be able to take rpg hits though

[Luno]

sp2c
nice pictures but I have a question what kind off engine does it have? and is it a petrol or diesel or a multifuel engine? :D

[sp2c]

don't know really

[jmcmtank]

maybe for the Netherlands

now that the Brits pulled out it's all pretty vague, nobody knows what's going to happen and nobody knows when it's going to happen.


Didnt know that.

Damn Brits. They always joined a program, pulled out an then put the whole program in jeopardy. First, there was the Trigat anti-tank missile then the Horizon frigates, now the Boxer. Who is next ? The Eurofighter and the A400M ? :|
Never mind we still have this wonder of modern (truck) technology;

:roll:

[ecia81mm]

great vehicle!!
































http://gaf.zeelandnet.nl/yp408/yp408_2006.htm

[sp2c]

great vehicle!!





great indeed ... it's about to eat those little people :D

[littlefrench]

You lucky bastards :petting:

Nice vehicle...

[Wodan]

for germany its not the only future APC, the other one is the Puma, its tracked, much better armed and much better armoured.

just nobody thinks that germany would think it can live without of tracks


btw. GREAT PICS! woot

[Wodan]

Is the thing up-left on the picture the EADS + KMW project Muss (Multifunction Self Protection System)?



or is it radar/something smiliar?

[Roldwin]

The future APC of the German and Dutch armies :



I like this concept

[Wodan]

prime Contractor: artec GmbH
final assembly and System Integration: by artec shareholders in the participating country
technical data:
overall length 7880 mm
height vehicle 2370 mm
load capacity 8 tonnes
internal volume 14 cubic metres
Crew 11
Max. speed 103 km/h
trench crossing 2 m
Climbing 0.8 m
Range 1050 km
engine capacity 530 kw (ISO)

[drGreen]

The future APC of the German and Dutch armies :



I like this concept

x2 freakin' handy woot

[Wodan]

btw. why do we stll call it MRAV, the brits are out!


PWV or GTK would be cooler =)

[oldsoak]

We might be out, but we might still buy the vehicle. I hope we do. Unfortunately, you must bear in mind that the wishes of the UK armed forces mean nothing compared to the wishes of the accountants. The accountants like the idea of off-the-shelf because they dont like paying for research and development. Also, there was the idea that "light is right" - in order to deploy assets rapidly by air, they must be air transportably and Boxer/MRAV is heavy....
Unfortunately, not everyone outside of Europe uses bows and arrows anymore, they now have access to RPG's etc - which means we will up armour the LAV/Stryker or whatever we get until we have something that weights as much as the MRAV and costs more....

[Pille1234]

for germany its not the only future APC, the other one is the Puma, its tracked, much better armed and much better armoured.
The Puma is not an APC but an IFV.

[Wodan]

for germany its not the only future APC, the other one is the Puma, its tracked, much better armed and much better armoured.
The Puma is not an APC but an IFV.

I wont disagree with you

I used a translator

armoured personnel carrier [mil.] der Schützenpanzer
it said...

[Wodan]

We might be out, but we might still buy the vehicle. I hope we do. Unfortunately, you must bear in mind that the wishes of the UK armed forces mean nothing compared to the wishes of the accountants. The accountants like the idea of off-the-shelf because they dont like paying for research and development. Also, there was the idea that "light is right" - in order to deploy assets rapidly by air, they must be air transportably and Boxer/MRAV is heavy....

A400M would carry it...

[unclechuckles]

That's a dope APC. Looks so Sci-Fi.

[oldsoak]

We might be out, but we might still buy the vehicle. I hope we do. Unfortunately, you must bear in mind that the wishes of the UK armed forces mean nothing compared to the wishes of the accountants. The accountants like the idea of off-the-shelf because they dont like paying for research and development. Also, there was the idea that "light is right" - in order to deploy assets rapidly by air, they must be air transportably and Boxer/MRAV is heavy....

A400M would carry it...

Agreed. Both will be a welcome addition to whoever buys them.

[Hadamar]

[/URL]
[URL=http://img212.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img212&image=idzpage35hw.jpg] (http://img212.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img212&image=idzpage10lr.jpg)

[mountainbear]

Wasn’t the lack of heavy weaponry one of the main reasons for France to pull out of the program? They wanted a wheeled IFV and MRAV is “only” an APC.

[FinnishMF]

Very similar like finnish AMV






Hope more countries will adopt it ;)

[corran.pl]

;-)




Polish AMV - KTO "Rosomak" ("Wolverine")

[Hadamar]

Wasn’t the lack of heavy weaponry one of the main reasons for France to pull out of the program? They wanted a wheeled IFV and MRAV is “only” an APC.
That was probably the case. The infantry combat version(VCI) of the Giat VBCI has a one-man turret with a 25mm cannon.

[mountainbear]

Wasn’t the lack of heavy weaponry one of the main reasons for France to pull out of the program? They wanted a wheeled IFV and MRAV is “only” an APC.
That was probably the case. The infantry combat version(VCI) of the Giat VBCI has a one-man turret with a 25mm cannon.

VBCI seems to be a good vehicle too, but it’s sad that Europeans couldn’t find a way to cooperate on such a program.
It would have been a major step in European defence if four of the major armies in Europe had a single family of wheeled APC/IFV!! And it would have saved money!!!

[Hadamar]

VBCI seems to be a good vehicle too, but it’s sad that Europeans couldn’t find a way to cooperate on such a program.
It would have been a major step in European defence if four of the major armies in Europe had a single family of wheeled APC/IFV!! And it would have saved money!!!
Yes, a single vehicle would have been cheaper to procure and easier to find parts for, but I think it would also stifle innovation. I like to see different engineering solutions to similar requirements.

The requirements of each nation are probably too different to agree upon a single platform. The French, I think, are going to use the VBCI as a wheeled IFV. The Bundeswerh didn't require the Boxer to be armed to IFV standards because it had the KMW/Rheinmetall Puma in the works.

[mountainbear]

VBCI seems to be a good vehicle too, but it’s sad that Europeans couldn’t find a way to cooperate on such a program.
It would have been a major step in European defence if four of the major armies in Europe had a single family of wheeled APC/IFV!! And it would have saved money!!!
Yes, a single vehicle would have been cheaper to procure and easier to find parts for, but I think it would also stifle innovation. I like to see different engineering solutions to similar requirements.

The requirements of each nation are probably too different to agree upon a single platform. The French, I think, are going to use the VBCI as a wheeled IFV. The Bundeswerh didn't require the Boxer to be armed to IFV standards because it had the KMW/Rheinmetall Puma in the works.

I agree but it might still stifle innovation when all of the manufacturer of these vehicle will have disappeared, or been taken over by American companies, because none of them will have sold enough vehicle to assure their survival!

[sp2c]

Boxer can be armed anyway you want it to be armed... you just have to build a new module (stick a turret on it)

[Wodan]

Boxer can be armed anyway you want it to be armed... you just have to build a new module (stick a turret on it)

ack

I dont see the problem, you could put onto the Boxer any module you want, tank cannon, rockets, machine cannon, motar, howitzer, a huge bow with an arrow....

btw. why should the french want a wheeled IFV????

[sp2c]

Boxer can be armed anyway you want it to be armed... you just have to build a new module (stick a turret on it)

ack

I dont see the problem, you could put onto the Boxer any module you want, tank cannon, rockets, machine cannon, motar, howitzer, a huge bow with an arrow....

I just said that



btw. why should the french want a wheeled IFV????
because it's a usefull thing to have?

[Luno]

And a wheeled vehicle it is more coast effective then a tracked vehicle :D and more reliable

[oldsoak]

Wasn’t the lack of heavy weaponry one of the main reasons for France to pull out of the program? They wanted a wheeled IFV and MRAV is “only” an APC.
That was probably the case. The infantry combat version(VCI) of the Giat VBCI has a one-man turret with a 25mm cannon.

VBCI seems to be a good vehicle too, but it’s sad that Europeans couldn’t find a way to cooperate on such a program.
It would have been a major step in European defence if four of the major armies in Europe had a single family of wheeled APC/IFV!! And it would have saved money!!!

...here is the problem - since when has common sense ever had anything to do with defence procurement ? :)

[sp2c]

if it would've saved money then the problem could not have been with the Dutch government on this one ;)

then again politicians are not know for being great military minds :(

[McLane]

I really love the Boxer, it looks great. Does anybody know in which configs the boxer will be produced?

[sp2c]

I really love the Boxer, it looks great. Does anybody know in which configs the boxer will be produced?

For now it will be just APC, Command and Ambulance afaik ... but since it's modular it realyl can be anything you want it to be. Just build a new module ... I think if you look at the concept art of the Finnish one with all the options you'll probably get the picture

[caleb]

I really love the Boxer, it looks great. Does anybody know in which configs the boxer will be produced?

I know only 2 versions that have been confirmed:

A ambulance module and the normal APC module for troop transport. However, I've read somewhere that they are planing a Module with a Mauser MK30-2.

Edit: forgot the Command Module, thx sp2c

[sp2c]

that's a 30 mm chaingun right?

need 35 mm so that it can use the same ammo as the cv9035 but that's probably not such a big problem

[McLane]

I wish there were a version that is a Half-Truck - Something like that:



That will rock like hell ;) why tehre are no more Half-Trucks today? :petting: In the WW2 these Trucks rules - the german ones, the russian ones and the ami-version too!

[oldsoak]

I think one of the South American states produced half tracks after the war. I understand that a half track offers no benifit over modern fully tracked designs.

[Harlequin]

that's a 30 mm chaingun right?
The Rheinmetall MK30-2 is the revolver cannon of the Puma IFV.

I would prefer the RMK on the Boxer for EOD. The module might be an advantage for a lot of variants but heavy weapons with a lot of recoil are likely not one of them.

[sp2c]

something similar to the French Ceasar should work just fine imo



that's based on the AMX13

[mountainbear]

something similar to the French Ceasar should work just fine imo

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/caesar/images/caesar1.jpg

that's based on the AMX13

No, it’s based on a Unimog truck.

That’s an AMX 13 based SPG.

[sp2c]

my mistake ... should still work though

perhaps use the new M777 super ultra freakin light weight 155 mm howitzer

[Wodan]

my mistake ... should still work though

perhaps use the new M777 super ultra freakin light weight 155 mm howitzer



I think fitting the 155mm cannon of the PzH2000/AGM would fit great, but why should we need a Boxer-155mm if we have PzH2000 and AGM?

AGM


PzH2000


F124

[sp2c]

because of the wheels man woot

means a faster, more silent, cheaper and easier maintainable vehicle

I also think we should have a wheeled mbt and a wheeld aifv (1 for every 3 tracked ones, so for instance 1 division should have 3 tracked brigades, 1 wheeled brigade and 1 support brigade)

[Cygnus]

Wish we have these kind of hardware... I'd honestly preffer the version with a turret similar to that onthe Marder IFV of Germany. I'm pretty sure that will come in handy in Urban warfare. Just add a birdcage to protect against RPGs...

[Cygnus]

because of the wheels man woot

means a faster, more silent, cheaper and easier maintainable vehicle

I also think we should have a wheeled mbt and a wheeld aifv (1 for every 3 tracked ones, so for instance 1 division should have 3 tracked brigades, 1 wheeled brigade and 1 support brigade)

I'd preffer a split in the middle... 2 Brigades tracked the other two wheel IFVs...

[sp2c]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

[Cygnus]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

In the Southern Philippines these will be very handy... The Rebels and Terrorists have RPGs...

[Wodan]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

MUSS and Mexas will be able to take a rocket propelled granade, I guess

[Luno]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

MUSS and Mexas will be able to take a rocket propelled granade, I guess

The PG-7V can penetrate up to 330mm and the PG-7VL 600mm of steel armour so no way an APC or an IFV can survive a direct hit from an RPG. The best protection from RPG is a RPG fence like the one the IDF uses on their bulldozers

[sp2c]

no I'm pretty confident here.

maybe if you score a an absolutely perfect direct hit in exactly the right place (which is difficult against a target moving 100 kph ;)) I'm pretty sure Boxer should be able to withstand an rpg hit.

or I want my money back

[Wodan]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

MUSS and Mexas will be able to take a rocket propelled granade, I guess

The PG-7V can penetrate up to 330mm and the PG-7VL 600mm of steel armour so no way an APC or an IFV can survive a direct hit from an RPG. The best protection from RPG is a RPG fence like the one the IDF uses on their bulldozers


errm... active armour does hit and destroy the rocket, before it hits the vehicle....

[Luno]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

MUSS and Mexas will be able to take a rocket propelled granade, I guess

The PG-7V can penetrate up to 330mm and the PG-7VL 600mm of steel armour so no way an APC or an IFV can survive a direct hit from an RPG. The best protection from RPG is a RPG fence like the one the IDF uses on their bulldozers


errm... active armour does hit and destroy the rocket, before it hits the vehicle....

The Russian did also claim that before the Bill2 did blow a big hole in the turret with its duel warhead system.. And there are allot off RPG-7 rockets out there with duel warheads

[sp2c]

true enough

[Wodan]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

MUSS and Mexas will be able to take a rocket propelled granade, I guess

The PG-7V can penetrate up to 330mm and the PG-7VL 600mm of steel armour so no way an APC or an IFV can survive a direct hit from an RPG. The best protection from RPG is a RPG fence like the one the IDF uses on their bulldozers


errm... active armour does hit and destroy the rocket, before it hits the vehicle....

The Russian did also claim that before the Bill2 did blow a big hole in the turret with its duel warhead system.. And there are allot off RPG-7 rockets out there with duel warheads

russians have active armour????????????????

[Luno]

should be able to take rpg's as it is but extra armour is allways handy (though if you add a birdcage it'll make the damn thing even bigger ;))

MUSS and Mexas will be able to take a rocket propelled granade, I guess

The PG-7V can penetrate up to 330mm and the PG-7VL 600mm of steel armour so no way an APC or an IFV can survive a direct hit from an RPG. The best protection from RPG is a RPG fence like the one the IDF uses on their bulldozers


errm... active armour does hit and destroy the rocket, before it hits the vehicle....

The Russian did also claim that before the Bill2 did blow a big hole in the turret with its duel warhead system.. And there are allot off RPG-7 rockets out there with duel warheads

russians have active armour????????????????

Active armour or reactive armour (ERA) it don’t make a difrent a duel warhead rocket would still blow a hole in it and killing everyone inside :|.
a feance might look ugly but it is a cheap life insurance

[sp2c]

Active armour or reactive armour (ERA) it don’t make a difrent a duel warhead rocket would still blow a hole in it and killing everyone inside :|.
a feance might look ugly but it is a cheap life insurance

well the thing is modular anyways so you can add anything you want to it, be at a birdcage or a hockey stadium (provided it can carry the tonnage ;))

[Luno]

Active armour or reactive armour (ERA) it don’t make a difrent a duel warhead rocket would still blow a hole in it and killing everyone inside :|.
a feance might look ugly but it is a cheap life insurance

well the thing is modular anyways so you can add anything you want to it, be at a birdcage or a hockey stadium (provided it can carry the tonnage ;))

yes that is the good thing about modular system :) it is a Swiss army knife on wheels p-)

[Hadamar]

my mistake ... should still work though

perhaps use the new M777 super ultra freakin light weight 155 mm howitzer

I would use the Denel LEO 105mm on a Boxer chassis. Its range of 30km with base-bleed shells is superior to 39-cal 155mm guns.
[/URL]
(http://img118.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img118&image=2004armamentsindirectfirepage3.jpg)

(http://img118.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img118&image=2004armamentsindirectfirepage0.jpg)

Denel 105mm gun: [url]http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_ArtillerySysTowedGun.pdf

105mm Igala ammunition: http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_ArtillerySysIgala.pdf

[Harlequin]

I would use the Denel LEO 105mm on a Boxer chassis. Its range of 30km with base-bleed shells is superior to 39-cal 155mm guns.

Well, 155mm without base-bleed reaches 30km, with base bleed Denel alread y gets closer 60km. Also 155mm has more diversity. GPS guided and other smart ammunitions are not available in 105mm and for an army not operating 105mm artillery, introducing this ammunition would cause another logistical burden.

105mm with 39cal barrel is only good for lighter vehicles, not taking too much recoil. Begs the question whether one isn´t better served with vehicles like the AGM with a 155mm and 52cal barrel

[Hadamar]

Well, 155mm without base-bleed reaches 30km, with base bleed Denel alread y gets closer 60km. Also 155mm has more diversity. GPS guided and other smart ammunitions are not available in 105mm and for an army not operating 105mm artillery, introducing this ammunition would cause another logistical burden.
You're right that the glamorous GPS guided rounds are all for 155mm artillery. The 60km range is only achievable with a 52cal gun firing base bleed ammunition. But I don't think you would want to put anything larger than a 39cal lightweight 155mm on a Boxer chassis not specifically made for a monster gun like the Denel G6-52.


105mm with 39cal barrel is only good for lighter vehicles, not taking too much recoil. Begs the question whether one isn´t better served with vehicles like the AGM with a 155mm and 52cal barrel
We are talking about light vehicles, however. Any indirect fire gun mounted on a Boxer-class chassis would be replacing towed artillery, not other self-propelled units like the Pzh 2000.

[Harlequin]

True, on the other hand, i would not mount any artillery like that on a light wheeled chassis in the first place and in my opinion, the Boxer is unsuitable anyways.

For replacement of current 105mm towed artillery, the 155mm M777 seems to be the best around. If there is a need for a self propelled howitzer, i think it is criminal to reduce firepower, armor, range and effectiveness just for an overrated requirement to fit into a C130.

Having a towed howitzer replaced with a self propelled one, would negate all advantages of having artillery very quickly deployed by helicopter also. Both have their place.

[McLane]

Super Hi-Res Solution Pics:

http://www.rheinmetall.de/img/boxer_05_gr.jpg
http://www.rheinmetall.de/img/boxer_04_gr.jpg
http://www.rheinmetall.de/img/boxer_03_gr.jpg

[He219]

russians have active armour????????????????
Indeed they do.


A Russian soldier sits on a tank in Karabulak, Ingushetia, Tuesday, June 22, 2004.


A Russian tank T-90S, which is capable of firing laser-guided missiles at land targets and helicopters, rides during the Expo Arms-2004 exposition in the testing ground near Nizhny Tagil, Russia, about 900 miles east of Moscow, in this July 8, 2004 photo

[Wodan]

russians have active armour????????????????
Indeed they do.


A Russian soldier sits on a tank in Karabulak, Ingushetia, Tuesday, June 22, 2004.

:cantbeli:

thats REactive armour, not active!!!

[Harlequin]

Well, you lost me there Wodan. By your understanding, what is "active armor"? There certainly is none on either the Puma IFV or the Boxer.

[Wodan]

Well, you lost me there Wodan. By your understanding, what is "active armor"? There certainly is none on either the Puma IFV or the Boxer.

there is none yet!

but MUSS is active armour, as example




Multifunction Self Protection System (MUSS)



The prototype system is currently under development at Krauss Maffei Wegmann and EADS under a technology evaluation of the Federal office of Defense Technology & Procurement (BWB). During the test phase, the system was mounted on a Leopard 2 tank which successfully defended itself against various missile threats. MUSS weighs 65 to 160kg, depending on the equipment application, uses a combination of four sensors each covering an arc of 95x70 degrees, with a resolution of +/- 1.5 degrees. The sensors employ UV missile launch signature and laser detectors. When a threat is detected, the system responds within 1 – 1.5 seconds activating a smoke screen or directing infrared jamming signal toward the launching platform. During testing integration of the MUSS was designed for BOXER, FENNEK, and PUMA vehicles, as well as the Leopard 2A5 tanks.

[Harlequin]

ah well, alright ... sorry i asked.

For your information, the russians pionieered active defence systems in the mid 80s. It is not called "active armor" and it is the west which only now is catching up with russian technology.

[Pille1234]

Well, you lost me there Wodan. By your understanding, what is "active armor"? There certainly is none on either the Puma IFV or the Boxer.

there is none yet!

but MUSS is active armour, as example

Thats a soft kill system, thats all. Nothing revolutionary....

[sp2c]

True, on the other hand, i would not mount any artillery like that on a light wheeled chassis in the first place and in my opinion, the Boxer is unsuitable anyways.

For replacement of current 105mm towed artillery, the 155mm M777 seems to be the best around. If there is a need for a self propelled howitzer, i think it is criminal to reduce firepower, armor, range and effectiveness just for an overrated requirement to fit into a C130.

well I don't really cared about it being able to fit in a C130 because we don't have enough of them anyways.

the added value of a Boxer based howitzer is in it's speed and low maintainablity. This is usefull for quick redeployments or peacekeeping operations.


Having a towed howitzer replaced with a self propelled one, would negate all advantages of having artillery very quickly deployed by helicopter also. Both have their place.
I don't mean to replace the towed howitzers with self propelled ones, I want to add on the abilities of the self propelled howitzer units.

besides our government allready decided to get rid of all towed weaponry :(

[Cifu]

russians have active armour????????????????

Well, if you call the MUSS to active armour, then yes, from 1983...

Drozd APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/drozd.html)
Arena APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html)

But the MUSS as i think are not active armour (or correctly "Active Protection System') just an EOCMDAS (electro-optical counter-measures defensive aids suite), like the Shtora-1.

Shtora-1 @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html)

[Luno]

russians have active armour????????????????

Well, if you call the MUSS to active armour, then yes, from 1983...

Drozd APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/drozd.html)
Arena APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html)

But the MUSS as i think are not active armour (or correctly "Active Protection System') just an EOCMDAS (electro-optical counter-measures defensive aids suite), like the Shtora-1.

Shtora-1 @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html)

Does the Active Protection System really work? And how does it work? =)

[littlefrench]

Wasn’t the lack of heavy weaponry one of the main reasons for France to pull out of the program? They wanted a wheeled IFV and MRAV is “only” an APC.
That was probably the case. The infantry combat version(VCI) of the Giat VBCI has a one-man turret with a 25mm cannon.

VBCI seems to be a good vehicle too, but it’s sad that Europeans couldn’t find a way to cooperate on such a program.
It would have been a major step in European defence if four of the major armies in Europe had a single family of wheeled APC/IFV!! And it would have saved money!!!
x2

In Europe a lot of countries make their own IFV/MRAV/APC... which look all very similar ! European should cooperates, but the industrial lobbies are powerful...

[Cifu]

russians have active armour????????????????

Well, if you call the MUSS to active armour, then yes, from 1983...

Drozd APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/drozd.html)
Arena APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html)

But the MUSS as i think are not active armour (or correctly "Active Protection System') just an EOCMDAS (electro-optical counter-measures defensive aids suite), like the Shtora-1.

Shtora-1 @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html)

Does the Active Protection System really work? And how does it work? =)

I linked all three system review from Vasiliy Fofanov's
Modern Russian Armour Page. Read it. ;)

[Luno]

russians have active armour????????????????

Well, if you call the MUSS to active armour, then yes, from 1983...

Drozd APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/drozd.html)
Arena APS @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html)

But the MUSS as i think are not active armour (or correctly "Active Protection System') just an EOCMDAS (electro-optical counter-measures defensive aids suite), like the Shtora-1.

Shtora-1 @ armor.kiev.ua (http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html)

Does the Active Protection System really work? And how does it work? =)

I linked all three system review from Vasiliy Fofanov's
Modern Russian Armour Page. Read it. ;)

Damn stupied me :oops: hehe sorry for that mate :D

[Mountie]

Is there any plans to build a Boxer variant with a turret? Either as an IFV with a 25-30mm gun or a MGS with a 105-120mm gun. It was mentioned in the very early states that an IFV variant was possible but its never been mentioned again. I assume since neither Germany or the Netherlands have a need for it to fill that role. They have the Puma and CV90 respectively.