How do the military carry their pistols?

[Gringo]

I'm just wondering how military units carry pistols? I'm not talking about holsters. More like, do they carry them magazine loaded, cocked, hammer down safety on?

[Guttorm]

Well, when we wore our's we had them with clip in, but no bullet in the chamber.
Safety was.. Well, on. We use Glocks, so the safety isn't an issue... :D

[Gringo]

Well, when we wore our's we had them with clip in, but no bullet in the chamber.
Safety was.. Well, on. We use Glocks, so the safety isn't an issue... :D
but what sort of situation was it?

[Royal]

In holsters.

Loaded or made ready, depending on the situation/SOP.

[Roger Rabbit]

On the hip, leg or chest rig?

[Gringo]

In holsters.

Loaded or made ready, depending on the situation/SOP.
care to give me an example? eg like in Iraq at the moment.

[ogukuo72]

I remembered seeing an Israeli demonstrate a "quick draw" some ten years back. The pistol was carried with a loaded magazine but empty chamber. It was carried in a hip hostler. He drew the pistol with his right hand, pull the slide back with his left hand as he brought it up, and then fired it. It was fast.

I read some time back that this was not a new technique. Apparently, the British colonial police in Shanghai used a similar technqiue, except that they carried their pistols in a cross-draw hostler.

Interesting technique, but I don't think it really caught on in the rest of the world.

[Royal]

In holsters.

Loaded or made ready, depending on the situation/SOP.
care to give me an example? eg like in Iraq at the moment.

Depends on the role. We Brits don't go much for leg holsters. AFV crews sometimes go for commercial shoulder holsters, others use the integral hoster inside the issue ops vest. But most use the (bloody awful) PLCE issue holster on a waist belt.

Overt RMP teams use standard police rigs. For discreet and/or covert carry by CP/SF or Int guys it tends to be commercial hip holsters.

Most carry loaded outside camp/base/FOB. The CP/SF and Int guys are more likely to be made ready as an SOP.

[Smintjes]

I remembered seeing an Israeli demonstrate a "quick draw" some ten years back. The pistol was carried with a loaded magazine but empty chamber. It was carried in a hip hostler. He drew the pistol with his right hand, pull the slide back with his left hand as he brought it up, and then fired it. It was fast.

I read some time back that this was not a new technique. Apparently, the British colonial police in Shanghai used a similar technqiue, except that they carried their pistols in a cross-draw hostler.

Interesting technique, but I don't think it really caught on in the rest of the world.

yeah, I got an old Handguns magazine (from 1991 or something) which explains the technique.

[ogukuo72]

I remembered seeing an Israeli demonstrate a "quick draw" some ten years back. The pistol was carried with a loaded magazine but empty chamber. It was carried in a hip hostler. He drew the pistol with his right hand, pull the slide back with his left hand as he brought it up, and then fired it. It was fast.

I read some time back that this was not a new technique. Apparently, the British colonial police in Shanghai used a similar technqiue, except that they carried their pistols in a cross-draw hostler.

Interesting technique, but I don't think it really caught on in the rest of the world.

yeah, I got an old Handguns magazine (from 1991 or something) which explains the technique.

Great! You won't happen to have a scan or something, would you?

[Guttorm]

Well, when we wore our's we had them with clip in, but no bullet in the chamber.
Safety was.. Well, on. We use Glocks, so the safety isn't an issue... :D
but what sort of situation was it?

It was on boarding of ships. We carried them in leg holsters... Err, well, on the tigh.

[NcDeuce]

Funny title

[Deuterium]

It all depends on the weapon. Pistols are double-action(DA like the 92F) or single-action(SA like the 1911). DA pistols are carried mag in, one in the pipe, and the weapon on safe or fire. It is unit SOP if the weapon is on safe or fire(the 92F actually has a decocking lever not a safety). I have always carried mine on fire. The weapon is perfectly safe in the holster in this configuration. SA pistols are carried mag in, one in the pipe, safety on. During the draw sequence on both pistols a safety sweep is VERY important. Some holsters are designed to assist in placing the weapon on fire.

[Spooky]

I'd be reluctant to rely on a double action pistol for that first shot. Rather have the first be dead on and take the extra quarter second to work the action rather than have to yank on the trigger and screw my aim up.

[ogukuo72]

Modern double action pistols like the Glock and HK USP have very smooth trigger action. I don't think you have to worry too much about that a time lag or being off-point.

[James]

I'd be reluctant to rely on a double action pistol for that first shot. Rather have the first be dead on and take the extra quarter second to work the action rather than have to yank on the trigger and screw my aim up.

That is why it is important to practice! ;) A lot! Marksmanship is a perishable skill. This is why, when one reads about high speed people training with high speed units, one learns that they shoot thousands, tens of thousands of rounds. It makes good technique and accuracy second nature.

[16 OBr SpN]

Loaded. Bullet in chamber.

Just like in that Black Hawk Down with guy pointing finger at his head - "THIS is my safety sir!" :D

[NcDeuce]

I think the reloading technique is cool...

Turn the pistol to its side while having the tip of the pistol still on the target. Push the button and release the clip. Load new clip, back in business.

[Roger Rabbit]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

[Jack Mehoff]

If my memory serves me correctly there are 5 arming level or 0 through 4.

0 is no bullets in your gun, 4 is lock and load ready to rock and roll. You probably have to go to arming level 0 if you are in the garrison and arming level 3(lock and load and weapon is on safe) if you are out doing patrol

[Deuterium]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

This is SOP in unit. Care to explain why this is dumb? I've always carried my DA pistol this way.

[ibstolidude]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

This is SOP in unit. Care to explain why this is dumb? I've always carried my DA pistol this way.

so you can be fumble-****ing around with your secondary when you should be shooting....like duh!!! I mean what is an M9? 12lbs on the DA?

I think your should actually put the bullet in your pocket like Barney Fife.

[Deuterium]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

This is SOP in unit. Care to explain why this is dumb? I've always carried my DA pistol this way.

so you can be fumble-f*** around with your secondary when you should be shooting....like duh!!! I mean what is an M9? 12lbs on the DA?

I think your should actually put the bullet in your pocket like Barney Fife.

Believe it or not most guys learing actually shoot better in DA than SA. Luckily good units that depend on pistols get to put THOUSANDS of rounds downrange. I've had plenty of speed runs on Pro-Timers and DA is just as fast as SA. If your draw sequence is correct you don't have hammer fall until full arm extension and lock-out. This means you begin to take the slack out between position 3 and 4. While its possible to shott after position 2, position 4 is what you train OVER and OVER for. Try hour upon hour of dry fire over a 20 year career. As for the 12 lb pull on DA, ancient chinese secret, cut three coils off of the spring or buy a spring kit. Hell while your at it stone your trigger for smoother action.

[FuturePara]

What do DA and SA stand for?

[Deuterium]

Double action single action.

[ibstolidude]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

This is SOP in unit. Care to explain why this is dumb? I've always carried my DA pistol this way.

so you can be fumble-f*** around with your secondary when you should be shooting....like duh!!! I mean what is an M9? 12lbs on the DA?

I think your should actually put the bullet in your pocket like Barney Fife.

Believe it or not most guys learing actually shoot better in DA than SA. Luckily good units that depend on pistols get to put THOUSANDS of rounds downrange. I've had plenty of speed runs on Pro-Timers and DA is just as fast as SA. If your draw sequence is correct you don't have hammer fall until full arm extension and lock-out. This means you begin to take the slack out between position 3 and 4. While its possible to shott after position 2, position 4 is what you train OVER and OVER for. Try hour upon hour of dry fire over a 20 year career. As for the 12 lb pull on DA, ancient chinese secret, cut three coils off of the spring or buy a spring kit. Hell while your at it stone your trigger for smoother action.

the point wasn't in the amount of time to draw the hammer in DA mode...as I posted the last 2x times this same topic popped we have always been taught to carry the M9 round chambered off safe ...as the holster will protect the trigger and as with any DA (as are commonly used in LE) the plus of a 12 pound trigger pull is the added safety factor..I infact also prefer to carry it with the hammer 1/4 cocked or pulled to the first lock..this prevents the M9 hammer from resting on the firing pin and allows for even less trigger pull for reflexive firing.. and I am one of those hard squeezers.
I find that constant "ball and dummy" from the holster prevents those erroneous off target trigger pulls/weak wrist (ahh how cute a little smokestack)/anticipations... and saves on the limited ammo in the NG/Res system.

I have a spring kit on the personal M9 I bring it, w/my slide along as it has the trijicon sights, somthing the ****ing NG/res won't pay for...cause it apears we in the AR/NG don't require to shoot pistols at night. I have not stoned the trigger for an M9 but will actually take the time to look...thanks.

[Royal]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

That's because you're a cadet in an OTC unit who touches a rifle once in a blue moon and a pistol almost never. Your PSI's need every kind of safety they can get to stop one of you putting a round through someone or something they shouldn't.

People that actually use pistols as a primary on Ops practice day in and day out and put thousands of rounds down range in training (and then continue to have refresher shoots in theatre on at least a bi-weekly basis). :cantbeli:

[Roger Rabbit]

I'm not talking about pistols, i'm talking about an assualt rifle. In Blackhawk down the guy is asked why the safety catch is not on his rifle. He replies "this is my safety" and waggles his finger in the air. From my limited cadet knowledge then this comes accross as dangerous especially so if there was a round in the breach. So if we assume that the weapon was loaded and cocked and the safety was not on as the man said; whilst the man was walking around getting hot food then would you say this was safe? It would take but a second to switch the safety on or off and so whilst walking around inside a guarded base getting some food with the rifle hanging loosly from its sling then i would say the safest thing to do would be to have the safety on.

Even if the weapon only had a magazine in and was not cocked then it stills seems pointless and dangerous not to apply the safety in this situation.

Then and again i am a "cadet" and i am probably going to shoot somebody by mistake so what do i know.

[Royal]

Okay point taken. It's not a film that I rewatch endlessly, wanking furiously ;) .

UK forces on Ops generally keep weapons unloaded on base/in FOB's and either loaded or made ready on patrols or other Ops 'outside the wire' - there are exceptions, particularly in FOB's, but it's a good general rule of thumb.

BTW there are three states a UK military firearm can be in they are;

Unloaded
Loaded/Made safe
Made ready

Our cousins across the pond are rather hotter at 'force protection' ie troops keep weapons with them at all times in theatre, often loaded 'inside the wire', rather than keeping them in sub-unit Armskotes.

In my experience this leads to rather more ND's (and a greater scope for suicides), but means that if the **** really hits the fan they're not queuing up for their gats as the mortar rounds fall ;) . That's just the way it is.

To come back to your original point - if he was carrying as described, I'd agree he should have been made safe with safety applied. :hug:

My comments on OTC's stand ;)

[Roger Rabbit]

:hug: Did i see you say somewhere on this site that you might be going for RCB later this year?

Just a quick question. In the FOB's then is there just one armoury or are there several specific to each unit and scatttered around the base?

[Royal]

:hug: Did i see you say somewhere on this site that you might be going for RCB later this year?

I was commissioned in 1992. Royal Marines do POC and AIB not RCB.

Just a quick question. In the FOB's then is there just one armoury or are there several specific to each unit and scatttered around the base?

A FOB is usually a house or group of houses for a sub unit minus sized group, so weapons are usually concentrated in or near the Ops Room. In a base sub-units usually have their own ISO container used as an Armskote.

[Royal]

Before you get any ideas about me being a 20something NIG, I did my CC in 1986 :D

So no, I'm not planning on RCB anytime soon ;)

[Roger Rabbit]

:lol: i was barely 2 years old when you did your CC.

I have absolutely no idea what the following mean:

CC-(Command ........?)
NIG-(New........?)
POC-(Potential Officers Course?)
AIB-(Advanced Interview Board?)

If i can then i will go through RCB this year, got a few interviews first and with a bit of luck an attachment.

[Royal]

CC Commando Course
NIG literally New In Germany - one of those phrases that's spread from the army - a sprog.
POC Potential Officers Course (RM only)
AIB Admiralty Interview Board (all RN and RM officer candidates)

[NcDeuce]

I think that not having the safety catch applied to a weapon as in the film Blackhawk down is one the dumbest things ever. :cantbeli:

This is SOP in unit. Care to explain why this is dumb? I've always carried my DA pistol this way.

so you can be fumble-f*** around with your secondary when you should be shooting....like duh!!! I mean what is an M9? 12lbs on the DA?

I think your should actually put the bullet in your pocket like Barney Fife.

Believe it or not most guys learing actually shoot better in DA than SA. Luckily good units that depend on pistols get to put THOUSANDS of rounds downrange. I've had plenty of speed runs on Pro-Timers and DA is just as fast as SA. If your draw sequence is correct you don't have hammer fall until full arm extension and lock-out. This means you begin to take the slack out between position 3 and 4. While its possible to shott after position 2, position 4 is what you train OVER and OVER for. Try hour upon hour of dry fire over a 20 year career. As for the 12 lb pull on DA, ancient chinese secret, cut three coils off of the spring or buy a spring kit. Hell while your at it stone your trigger for smoother action.

Whoa, cool.

[Deuterium]

I'm not talking about pistols, i'm talking about an assualt rifle. In Blackhawk down the guy is asked why the safety catch is not on his rifle. He replies "this is my safety" and waggles his finger in the air. From my limited cadet knowledge then this comes accross as dangerous especially so if there was a round in the breach. So if we assume that the weapon was loaded and cocked and the safety was not on as the man said; whilst the man was walking around getting hot food then would you say this was safe? It would take but a second to switch the safety on or off and so whilst walking around inside a guarded base getting some food with the rifle hanging loosly from its sling then i would say the safest thing to do would be to have the safety on.

Even if the weapon only had a magazine in and was not cocked then it stills seems pointless and dangerous not to apply the safety in this situation.

Then and again i am a "cadet" and i am probably going to shoot somebody by mistake so what do i know.

Okay I was refering to pistols and you were to rifles. Yep you are correct. Rifles, finger off the trigger, round in chamber, weapon on safe. My biggest pet peave is holding the weapon. If you're going to carry the weapon, CARRY THE WEAPON, at the ready. Its not a handbag.

[Seraphim]

Even if the weapon only had a magazine in and was not cocked then it stills seems pointless and dangerous not to apply the safety in this situation.


You cant flick the selector switch if its not loaded.

[martinexsquaddie]

from the book The delta guy sounded a tosser
bad example he probably would'nt have an ND
but do you want the nigs following your example?
real fear doing sentry with RAF techie types wheres the safety catch on this gun?

[Deuterium]

I gotta call BS on the whole point. No one carries their gun (rifle) around with a round in the chamber and the weapon off "safe". Doesn't happen. If a mistake is made and some support puke sees this and asks a guy he might very well come back with a snide remark. The pistol, on the other hand, is often carried by units on "fire". The units that have an SOP for it to be on "safe" would often question me as to why my weapon was on "fire". I'm not Delta, never tried out, but I have worked with them. I've never heard nor seen a Delta guy carrying a rifle off of safe.

[martinexsquaddie]

makes more senseI guess
DA pistols don't really need the safety catch applied if there in DA mode anyway

[James]

I usually walk around w/ my weapon off safe, finger on the trigger, pointing it at things I do not intend to shoot. I always assume that a weapon is unloaded until proven otherwise.

[Jack Mehoff]

this is how i usually hold my 9mm

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/wtf10.JPG

[Seoulstriker]

Jack Me Off, is that you??? you be pimpin'!

[Jack Mehoff]

Hey kimchi, it's Jack Mehoff

[Seoulstriker]

Hey kimchi,

1) i'm not korean
2) as arnold would say, "You son of a bitch!" :hug:

it's Jack Mehoff

Mr. Mehoff, it's a typo. :P :hug:

[Jack Mehoff]

apology accepted :-*$

[Durandal]

Modern double action pistols like the Glock and HK USP have very smooth trigger action. I don't think you have to worry too much about that a time lag or being off-point.

Most of these are actually, DA/SA, Double Action AND Single Action (I own a USP). The first pull is double action then subsequent shots are DA since the hammer is back already.

[ogukuo72]

Modern double action pistols like the Glock and HK USP have very smooth trigger action. I don't think you have to worry too much about that a time lag or being off-point.

Most of these are actually, DA/SA, Double Action AND Single Action (I own a USP). The first pull is double action then subsequent shots are DA since the hammer is back already.
:oops: Sloppy language. I should have said DAO for Glock and USP. :) But then, Glock is not REALLY a DAO, right? It's more like a half-cock single-action. Or is that a half-cock double action?

I've fired both Glocks (Glock 19) and the USP (USP Compact). Both have trigger actions that are smooth as silk, although I found the USP trigger pull for the first shot (Double Action) to be quite heavy. However, that may be because the Glock I used had been around for quite a while, whereas the USP's are brand new.

USP Compacts are considered by some to be better for personal protection or BG duties, as they have a safety and has a heavy double-action trigger pull for the first shot. The Glock's have neither.

[SABER 2-3]

IBSTOLI was correct in his method for carry w/ the M9 pistol. DoD regulations state that when the M9 is carried in condition one (locked and loaded) the decocking lever should be in the down position; regulation goes on to say that the decocker should be flipped off when the shooter is ready to discharge the weapon. The M9 decocker was not placed so that the shooter could easily disengage the decocker w/ the shooting hand and for a reason (DA first shot) this causes savy shooters to carry their M9's w/ the decocker in the up position and the hammer pulled back to the first notch (to prevent AD from impact) If you are in a activity that authorizes condition one carry you (the shooter) should be ready at all times to discharge that weapon. As far as the M16/M4 in condition one the selector switch should always be carried in the safe position only being released prior to trigger depression. Even SFOD-D SOP requires the use of the mechanical safety when using any select fire or SA weapon.

[James S.]

Even if the weapon only had a magazine in and was not cocked then it stills seems pointless and dangerous not to apply the safety in this situation.


You cant flick the selector switch if its not loaded.

Not true. On the M16A2, as long as the bolt is forward, and the weapon has not been rack-safed, the seletor lever will move freely betweem SAFE, FIRE, and BURST, loaded or not.

[ogukuo72]

Back to the original topic of the thread: I read that Russian tank crew are issued over-alls with a pocket for their pistol and one spare magazine. That way, they don't have to wear a hostler.

Not for everyone of course, but still, not a bad idea.

[TriggerPuller]

Safariland 6004 drop leg holster.

TP

[SABER 2-3]

Same as above w/ light option.