PDA

View Full Version : Blacks in the wehrmacht in WW2



nagant_m44
04-12-2005, 12:56 AM
Pics of this please.

BadKarma26
04-12-2005, 01:43 AM
:lol:

Jaguar
04-12-2005, 01:57 AM
AFAIK you can find them only back in WWI at German East Africa.

http://doc.iea.free.fr/Images/Togo_Kaiserliche_Schutztruppe_1899.jpg

kutter
04-12-2005, 02:26 AM
Is there any evidence there were black soldiers in the Wermacht? The Wermacht and even the SS did make use of "non-white" soldiers during the war (they had Osttruppen made up of volunteers from the east such as Turkmenstan and even Chinese) and the SS even raised an Indische Freiwilligen Legion (Indian Legion) but black soldiers? Doesn't seem very likely.

Lone Predator
04-12-2005, 02:55 AM
I wonder if France, Belgium, the Netherlands or Britian had black soldiers, seeing as they had colonies in Africa? Or would they simply have served in North Africa and not in Europe?

2RHPZ
04-12-2005, 03:19 AM
... an Indische Freiwilligen Legion (Indian Legion) but black soldiers? Doesn't seem very likely.

topic (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19466&highlight=indian)

callous
04-12-2005, 03:49 AM
I wonder if France, Belgium, the Netherlands or Britian had black soldiers, seeing as they had colonies in Africa? Or would they simply have served in North Africa and not in Europe?

Yes the allies had black soldiers and yes they fought in Europe. As for the Germans it might have been possible for a German of mixed heritage to serve in the wermacht if he looked aryan enough. Just like some germans of Jewish dissent were able to serve.

HUAH
04-12-2005, 03:54 AM
I have some pictures of blackened wehrmacht soldiers if interested. p-)

Luno
04-12-2005, 04:21 AM
I have some pictures of blackened wehrmacht soldiers if interested. p-)

Or white soldiers with black uniform :D
http://img140.echo.cx/img140/6523/ast01237qt.jpg

garoco
04-12-2005, 04:40 AM
I know of an Aboriginal Australian who served as an SS Camp guard at Bergen-Belsen in 1945. He was convicted at War Crimes trials and given 15 years imprisonment.

Koen
04-12-2005, 04:45 AM
@ lone predator ; belgium did not allow congolese soldiers to fight in europe, not in WWI nor in WWII. This because the colonial system was based on the congolese belief that the belgians were invincible. Congolese soldiers on european battlefields would certainly notice that europeans/belgians/whites are definitelly NOT invincible, and also they would get to kill white/german/italian soldiers, which could give them experience and ideas for when they got back home...
Belgium never had white colonial troops in the Congo untill 1956. The congolese army had belgian officers and senior NCO's, and only congolese junior NCO's and soldiers. So there were no troops to protect the belgians in case the congolese 'force publique' would start a mutiny.

Two belgian/congolese brigades did participate in the campaign in italian eastern africa (ethiopia/somalia), they did some fighting but were mainly used for garrison duties. One of these brigades was send to palestine to gaurd POW-camps for a while.

In WWI the belgian/congolese did much better, they participated in the conquest of german west africa (Cameroun) and later started an offensive in german east africa (tanzania) where they fought and won at Arusha.

cro-mag
04-12-2005, 06:31 AM
http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/f/freiesindien-mg34.jpg
Soldier of Legion Freies Indien with an MG 34

cro-mag
04-12-2005, 06:32 AM
http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/f/freies-indien.jpghttp://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/f/freies-indien-oberg.jpg

Navy
04-12-2005, 06:45 AM
the name of the german army wasnt whermacht, it was das heer.

whermacht means like "defense forces". while heer stands for regular army.

Johan M
04-12-2005, 07:05 AM
@ lone predator ; belgium did not allow congolese soldiers to fight in europe, not in WWI nor in WWII. This because the colonial system was based on the congolese belief that the belgians were invincible. Congolese soldiers on european battlefields would certainly notice that europeans/belgians/whites are definitelly NOT invincible, and also they would get to kill white/german/italian soldiers, which could give them experience and ideas for when they got back home...
Belgium never had white colonial troops in the Congo untill 1956. The congolese army had belgian officers and senior NCO's, and only congolese junior NCO's and soldiers. So there were no troops to protect the belgians in case the congolese 'force publique' would start a mutiny.


almost entirely correct, but if I'm not wrong, it was already in 1953 that there was a battalian of Belgian paracommando's permanently based in the Kongo (Kamina base). But the Belgian colonists really had no respect for the Belgian paratroopers.

nagant_m44
04-12-2005, 08:03 AM
the name of the german army wasnt whermacht, it was das heer.

whermacht means like "defense forces". while heer stands for regular army.
yea i know. I said wehrmacht because I was including luftwaffe, kriegsmarine, heer, and the waffen-SS.

nagant_m44
04-12-2005, 08:03 AM
Ive seen pics of blacks in the wehrmacht, I just dont have them anymore.

weissent
04-12-2005, 08:43 AM
From another forum, no source of the text given there:

"The black population of Germany in 1933 was minimal, and that of the countries it occupied even less. The one exception was France - and it is no coincidence that in occupied France and Vichy, blacks were specifically mentioned in Nuremberg-style racial laws.

In Germany itself, paradoxically, they weren't. There were so few black people in Nazi Germany that, with a single exception, they passed under the radar; they were subject to the same restrictions as other "non- Aryans," but no more than that. Massaquoi was taunted and excluded from organizations like the Hitler Youth and the military, but he went to school with the Aryan children, got a machinist's apprenticeship after school, caroused in the Hamburg nightclubs with his workmates and made some time with the ladies."

Interesting topic, I will look into it a little bit further...

The picture of blacks drafted into the Wehrmacht was probably this one (although I think the guy second to the left was only tanned):

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abw.jpg

weissent
04-12-2005, 09:05 AM
Well, it's all taken from the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/), but here you go: those posters are two textbook examples of how the official take on black citizens of NS Germany was:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abx.jpg

Translation: "The Result! / Racial pride declines"

And this one is well known:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/aby.jpg

Translation: "Degenerate Music - a reckoning of Staatsrat Dr.H.S.Ziegler"


>>update/edit
Regarding all the issues dealing with racial pride etc. mentioned before, it seems that blacks were not persecuted in NS Germany per se. After all, they gave the Brits under the command of v. Vorbeck quite a headache in East-Africa.
Sorry, couldn't find any evidence of Blacks serving with the Heer. The best I could find was a couple of Indians (dot, not feathers).

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/abz.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/aca.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/weissent/acb.jpg

Hope I helped anyway.

BigBaribal
04-12-2005, 09:16 AM
An amical meeting of ex-soldiers of the colonial army in Bremen in 1938:

http://img190.echo.cx/img190/5495/kolonialtagunginbremen19389qn.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

weissent
04-12-2005, 09:19 AM
An amical meeting of ex-soldiers of the colonial army in Bremen in 1938:

http://img190.echo.cx/img190/5495/kolonialtagunginbremen19389qn.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

WK1, we're talking about WK2; still it's great to see that something like this would happen in NS Germany, we're not all that evil y'know?

BigBaribal
04-12-2005, 09:20 AM
There were also black soldiers in the "Freies Arabien" units:

http://img190.echo.cx/img190/4579/arabesarmeeallemande25jl.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

BigBaribal
04-12-2005, 09:21 AM
An amical meeting of ex-soldiers of the colonial army in Bremen in 1938:

http://img190.echo.cx/img190/5495/kolonialtagunginbremen19389qn.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

WW1, we're talking about ww2

If you read it correctly, this pic was taken in 1938, so during the nazi time.

weissent
04-12-2005, 09:31 AM
If you read it correctly, this pic was taken in 1938, so during the nazi time.

Yea, sometimes I make mistakes. Obviously, you are right. Although, the soldiers depicted are not Wehrmacht soldiers, but belonged to units invited to celebrate some kind of victory achieved in German East-Africa during ww1 by Paul v. Lettow-Vorbeck.

BigBaribal
04-12-2005, 09:34 AM
If you read it correctly, this pic was taken in 1938, so during the nazi time.

Yea, sometimes I make mistakes. Obviously, you are right. Although, the soldiers depicted are not Wehrmacht soldiers, but belonged to units invited to celebrate some kind of victory achieved in German East-Africa during ww1 by Paul v. Lettow-Vorbeck.

Yes, they look like veterans wearing their old uniforms for some special meeting.

weissent
04-12-2005, 09:58 AM
I digged out this article (copyright laws violated as always)


WW1's forgotten battleground
26/07/2004 10:09 - (SA)
Related Articles
# WWI black soldiers return

Johannesburg - Thousands of kilometres from the battlefields of Europe, the armies of imperial Britain and France clashed with German forces in Africa's deserts, cities and bush during World War 1.

The 1914-18 war brought to an end German colonial rule in Africa, saw up to two million Africans make sacrifices for Europe and brought much social upheaval as cities burgeoned under the war effort, hardening racial lines.

"The First World War had a considerable impact on African colonies because European powers requisitioned their labour and their resources," says historian Bill Nasson from the University of Cape Town.

France used African troops more than any other European power, including Senegalese riflemen who fought in the victorious battle to take the German colony of Togo and were also shipped to fight at Gallipoli in what was to become Turkey.

Most Africans, however, were enrolled or conscripted into labour units as military service was considered risky, stoking fears that blacks "may get ideas beyond their station," says World War 1 historian Albert Grundlingh from the University of Stellenbosch.

South African forces fighting under the British flag were crucial in the battle for German South West Africa, now called Namibia, where the first armistice of the war was signed in 1915, and for German East Africa comprised of modern-day Burundi, Rwanda and Tanzania.

They also joined in the fighting in France where a memorial to them stands at Delville Wood, near the town of Longueval during the battle of the Somme from July to November 1916.

But it took close to 70 years for South Africa to pay homage to 700 black labourers who died when their ship, The Mendi, sank in the Channel in 1917 on its way to France to help in the war effort.

"The black sacrifice in the war in Africa has been forgotten," says Nasson.

Decades later, a memorial to the victims of The Mendi was erected in Johannesburg's black township of Soweto and under a new democratic regime in 1994.

Britain too built up its forces from men in Nigeria, the Gold Coast (Ghana), Sierra Leone, Gambia, Uganda, Nyasaland (Malawi), Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and Kenya but contrary to France, these troops all served in the African theatre.

At the outbreak of war in 1914, Germany had four colonies: Togo, Kamerun (Cameroon), German South West Africa, (Namibia), and German East Africa comprised of Burundi, Rwanda and Tanzania.

Germany's army led by brilliant commander Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck was undefeated in Africa. Von Lettow-Vorbeck surrendered in Mozambique three weeks after the 1919 treaty of Versailles was signed, once word finally reached Africa that the war was over.

He returned to Germany a war hero.

Historians agree that pushing Germany out of the "scramble for Africa" contributed to the humiliation that set the scene for World War II.

Germany was "humiliated"

"Germany was punished and humiliated and lost its attempt to get a place in the sun," says Nasson.

Amid the battles, African cities were taking shape in the first big wave of urbanisation driven by the demand for labour.

"It was the biggest migration of the early 20th century," says Grundlingh, adding that the mass exodus to the cities laid the seeds of segregation and by ricochet, black consciousness.

In South Africa, urban growth led to the first segregationist law in 1923, the Urban Segregation Act, that was "a bedrock act for what was to follow in the apartheid years" when white-minority rule gained a firmer footing, says Grundlingh.

The end of German colonisation in Africa saw France take over Togo while a French-British coalition ruled Cameroon. Belgium won Rwanda and Burundi, leaving Tanzania to the British and South West Africa went to South Africa.

"African nationalists who supported the allied war effort were bitterly disappointed at the Versailles conference," says Nasson.

"They thought that at the end of the First World War, there would be some dividend or benefit."

Edited by Tori Foxcroft

DeutschBrasilianisch
04-12-2005, 10:29 AM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

weissent
04-12-2005, 10:39 AM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Looks like this guy is a French Colonial Soldier imo. Opinions?

DeutschBrasilianisch
04-12-2005, 10:49 AM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Looks like this guy is a French Colonial Soldier imo. Opinions?
Germans (1.Gebirgs-Division )

Luno
04-12-2005, 11:08 AM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Looks like this guy is a French Colonial Soldier imo. Opinions?
Germans (1.Gebirgs-Division )

The German soldier closest to the camera belongs to a Luftwaffe Ground unit :D

Peiper_76
04-12-2005, 11:11 AM
There were also black soldiers in the "Freies Arabien" units:

Great Pic!

Wodan
04-12-2005, 11:22 AM
official take on black citizens of NS Germany was:

both of them?


I can show you the numbers of nowadays, propably the numbers in nazi germany were even lower

germany has 8% foreigners, thats like 6,640,000 foreigners,

of them, 4.1% are from africa, thats 264400 african foreigners (some of them may be whites or from northern africa, but there could be also blacks from other areas like usa, so it is propably almost correct), that would be 0.32% of total population

(I guess my numbers areant really correct, but it wont be totally wrong)

skunker
04-12-2005, 12:40 PM
From WW2InColor.com

"Indian Soldiers fighting for the German Army"

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/germans/akv.jpg

Red
04-12-2005, 12:58 PM
My grandfather fought for the british and he was Nigerian.I guess the whole deal with Africa was the greatest contradiction of WW2.You say you fight for freedom but turn around and opress another group of people.What a damn shame.

Stormy
04-12-2005, 01:17 PM
Interesting topic indeed. I knew a little bit about this and thanks for the pictures.

Legion
04-12-2005, 02:09 PM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Is it just me or are the Germans looking at those black dudes all crazy? Ant the black guy in the back looks like he might say "What's up? You never seen a hi-top fade before?"

Dunno, maybe it's just me....

weissent
04-12-2005, 02:25 PM
My grandfather fought for the british and he was Nigerian.I guess the whole deal with Africa was the greatest contradiction of WW2.You say you fight for freedom but turn around and opress another group of people.What a damn shame.

Did a coin drop? When are you doing to realize that freedom is only another word? I guess even in this case I'm lost.

PIMP
04-12-2005, 02:57 PM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Is it just me or are the Germans looking at those black dudes all crazy? Ant the black guy in the back looks like he might say "What's up? You never seen a hi-top fade before?"

Dunno, maybe it's just me....

That is just about what my first thoughts on that pic were. :D

nagant_m44
04-12-2005, 04:48 PM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Is it just me or are the Germans looking at those black dudes all crazy? Ant the black guy in the back looks like he might say "What's up? You never seen a hi-top fade before?"

Dunno, maybe it's just me....

That is just about what my first thoughts on that pic were. :D

thanks that was the exact pic i was looking for

DeutschBrasilianisch
04-12-2005, 05:56 PM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Is it just me or are the Germans looking at those black dudes all crazy? Ant the black guy in the back looks like he might say "What's up? You never seen a hi-top fade before?"

Dunno, maybe it's just me....

That is just about what my first thoughts on that pic were. :D

thanks that was the exact pic i was looking for


Look, the Pelé in WWII

http://www.f-vm2002.dk/pictures/photos/1970/pele.jpg

DeutschBrasilianisch
04-12-2005, 06:17 PM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Looks like this guy is a French Colonial Soldier imo. Opinions?
Germans (1.Gebirgs-Division )

The German soldier closest to the camera belongs to a Luftwaffe Ground unit :D

Fliegermütze: http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/militaria/quepes.htm

Fliegerbluse: http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/militaria/tunica.htm

Cooler Master
04-12-2005, 06:19 PM
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/photos/france/1geb/geb31.jpg
France, 1940.

Is it just me or are the Germans looking at those black dudes all crazy? Ant the black guy in the back looks like he might say "What's up? You never seen a hi-top fade before?"

Dunno, maybe it's just me....

That is just about what my first thoughts on that pic were. :D

thanks that was the exact pic i was looking for


Look, the Pelé in WWII

http://www.f-vm2002.dk/pictures/photos/1970/pele.jpg

rofl

Marmot1
04-12-2005, 08:02 PM
My grandfather fought for the british and he was Nigerian.I guess the whole deal with Africa was the greatest contradiction of WW2.You say you fight for freedom but turn around and opress another group of people.What a damn shame.

Idi Amin Dictator of Uganda(?) was also in British army and fought against Japanese in malayan *****ula.... AFAIK he was one of few Black Africans who were promoted to Officer at that time (but maybe I mostaken him with other guy-can someone check it?)