New Euro Forces - Questions? F.A.Q's

[wholagun]

European defence 'deal' reached


The US fears the plans will undermine Nato's influence
Britain, France and Germany have reached an informal agreement on a joint defence arrangement for Europe.
The three nations are about to present the proposals to their European Union partners, French and British diplomatic sources said.

The submission reportedly includes plans to structure defence co-operation and to create a European military headquarters.

Correspondents say the United States is likely to balk at the accord.

Washington will probably be unhappy with any moves which it feels undermine Nato's influence over European security.

Defence 'is key'

But, speaking in Naples during a break in a meeting of the EU's 15 current and 10 future members, French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said it was crucial Europe forged ahead with plans for a common defence.

"This is a key issue. We can't have a Europe without defence," he told French state radio France-Info.

British officials confirmed that an agreement had been reached but emphasised that it was not a "formal solution".

STICKING POINTS
Proposal for majority voting on foreign policy
National voting weights in the Council of Ministers
The number of commissioners
Mention of Christian heritage


Analysis: The EU wobbles

It would not appear on the official agenda but would be put to other delegates at dinner on Friday, they said.

The EU launched its first-ever peacekeeping operation, in Macedonia, in March.

It has also deployed troops under French command in the Democratic Republic of Congo and is working on plans to succeed Nato peacekeepers in Bosnia.

The US is said to be particularly upset at calls for a European defence headquarters.


But a British official has said that "any EU operations planning capability has to be compatible with Nato".

Britain has said its right to control its own defence policy is one of the "red lines" it will not allow the new EU constitution to cross.

It has reportedly also maintained that it envisages the European defence body will tackle missions Nato does not want to get involved in.

Possible UK veto

The EU countries are discussing a European constitution which is designed to bring it closer to citizens, and to streamline decision-making in the future enlarged union of 25 nations.


There is still disagreement over votes in the commission
EU president Italy hopes to reach final agreement on the text this weekend, but analysts say this is highly optimistic.

On Friday, UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the UK would reject the draft if it meant states would lose their veto over foreign policy.

Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio, meanwhile, has said provisions in the text which dilute the voting power Spain and Poland won at the Nice summit three years ago are "unacceptable".

Dutch Minister for Europe Atzo Nicolai said small countries like his tried without success earlier this week to force heavyweights France and Germany to play by EU rules.

Under the draft constitution the number of voting commissioners will be held at 15 - meaning 10 countries would not have fully-fledged commissioners when the union expands.

The major disagreements are expected to be left for heads of state to resolve at a summit in Brussels on 12 and 13 December.

The ratification process is due to start in mid-2004. The constitution is expected to come into force in 2006 at the earliest.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3247826.stm

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Im abit confused, with the creation of this new European force does mean that all EU nations will have to agree on it and supply troops to the force, even the 10 new Central/European nations? I have only heard of Belgium, France, Germany and Britain contributing trooops, but what where do nations like Poland stand on this. Also if a nation that does not want to be part of it can it opt out or does it have to be part of the European security forces if it is in the EU?

[aeternum]

The US just fear they can loose influence/control in Europe, thats why they keep pointing at the undermining-NATO issue. I say, screw the NATO and focus on an EU force.

[mocking_loudly_died]

The US just fear they can loose influence/control in Europe, thats why they keep pointing at the undermining-NATO issue. I say, screw the NATO and focus on an EU force.


Prepares for the storm, checks for provisions, gets ready for the first batch of American forum regulars to wake up in a couple of hours.

FLAME ON. :D

[Dalleer]

I'm way too skeptical about a possible "EU force", I mean NATO worked/works well enough.

It's just the EU big boys wanting to mess around with the balance of power again. I'm willing to bet that the EU army will bring more trouble on the long run that NATO.

Btw, I'm personally against the formation of the EU myself.

[Guttorm]

I'm VERY positive about EU in general. Norway needs to get in... Were being keept out of the loop now...

Anyway, it's been talks about this EU military for long now... About three years ago, there was talk about Norway sending 1000, soldiers, tanks and a squadron of FPB's to serve in the EU military.

And I Think Europe NEEDS to unite. To be a stronger Europe tomorrow.


(Jeez, I should be a politician)

Mmmmm, mocking.... New avatar... Nice.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Mmmmm, mocking.... New avatar... Nice.

I love Kelly Hu, I would kill every one in the world for just one kiss.

It is but a simple request.

[Pyle]

hmmm return of the Krauts?

[Kitsune]

@Guttorm

Will be a great day, when Norway finally join the E.U. ! I hope for it !


@Pyle: We never really were gone.


@At the rest: This only makes sense don't you think? During the Bosnian crisis the Americans sighed: "Why can't you Euros not solve the problems in your garden on your own? Why do you need us for this?" And they ridicule us for this to this very day.
Europe should be able to handle its security more and more on her own. And NATO? An organisation in which the commanding officer of coaltition troops IN EUROPE is ALWAYS an American? Sorry, but, if the Americans don't mind, we want to change it in the long run (and if they do mind we still want to change it ;) ).

Besides, NATO is mostly dead. The US have seen to that in the first place.

[Guttorm]

The US just fear they can loose influence/control in Europe, thats why they keep pointing at the undermining-NATO issue. I say, screw the NATO and focus on an EU force.

Well, NATO is made up of Europe and USA... I have nothing against USA, it's a great country, but if Europe can unite, I think we should.
And we could still have a NATO, even though the european countries join forces.

[Adri]

I'm positiv for the EU and EU armed forces, NATO will soon die....


btw, cool new smilie !!! :-*$

[The Walrus]

Though I greatly admire the principle of a United Europe, I am very skeptical about it actually happening (in my lifetime at least), the cultural boundaries are simply too huge, especially as each country has it's own cultural identity and language, the people on the street (here in Britain at least) see the EU as an alien beurocracy that is trying to take away it's national identity and freedom.
The main (and probably only) incentive for the EU is economic, and thus the EU is only gonna exist as primarily an economic power, not a political/military one.

[Dalleer]

Though I greatly admire the principle of a United Europe, I am very skeptical about it actually happening (in my lifetime at least), the cultural boundaries are simply too huge, especially as each country has it's own cultural identity and language,

Yes, I agree completely on the matter. Firstly, I see the EU politicians trying to make a counterforce against the US dominated "only superpower at the point"-thing, and secondly there's just too much differences in cultural and national levels between the various EU nationalities that you can't even start to form a real working governmental system between the all.

It is a completely different matter in the US, and we can't replicate that here. What comes to breaking NATO up and making something European in it's place is something very dumb to even consider.

I mean, the NATO is working fine; why replace an army when it works?

You should just take a look at the EU decision making process; mostly the bigger countries are starting to call the shots and the smaller ones get the bills. The EU is a economic power, and now attempts to become a military and a major political power.

We are being forced into this "alliance", not going in voluntarily.

The EU has been set up on foul grounds since day one, and I think that the only smart ones so far have been the Norwegians, staying out of this mess.

[Pyle]

@Pyle: We never really were gone.


hmm thought so, you guys were just laying low and growing your hair back...pretty impressive, now you guys have France on your side, not just the Vishy...oh well gotta have a piece of that pie, better yet the whole thing ey?...ah yes, the most sought after...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000031WD9.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

You Got Pie? ;)

[budanski]

You should just take a look at the EU decision making process; mostly the bigger countries are starting to call the shots and the smaller ones get the bills. The EU is a economic power, and now attempts to become a military and a major political power.

So Europe, how's that whole EU thing working out for you? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1095876,00.html)

I'm in total agreement with some here that the U.S. should dissolve NATO and redeploy the troops and put money and resources where we're welcomed and needed. I've always thought the EU should take care of itself, but that doesnt mean that I won't make fun of it. Lets just hope if left alone in ten years they won't be at each others throats. Then it'll be the blood of others that will have to sort out the mess they make. Same old story.

[usa320]

The chick from American pie is damn fine lookin.

[Pyle]

The chick from American pie is damn fine lookin.

yeah and that's what the EU is after the American Pie....

[duck]

Why not a form a transatlantic free trade area encompassing NAFTA and the EU? All the members would also be required to either join NATO or sign a bilateral defense pact with it. There is only so much time before China reaches its full potential.

[Durandal]

I find the whole thing rather amusing. I think of the money and nationalistic issues involved and I shudder a the quagmire of problems something like this would pose.

Because this isn't just command and control, it is new force projection, weapon systems, and doctrine.

[aeternum]

Because this isn't just command and control, it is new force projection, weapon systems, and doctrine.

Yea, but its goin to be a "european" doctrine.

Its just about time, that the imperialistic influence of the USA on the European security stops. Its our continent and not yours, you have your own, so stay there.

[Durandal]

Because this isn't just command and control, it is new force projection, weapon systems, and doctrine.

Yea, but its goin to be a "european" doctrine.

Its just about time, that the imperialistic influence of the USA on the European security stops. Its our continent and not yours, you have your own, so stay there.

Take another hit from your bong dude instead of bringing out the hate. Huh? I was simply pointing out the costs involved. I mean let's look at it from a political point of view. Rather than buying a new generation F16, you design some new Euro Fighter, it costs you, literally, DOUBLE what it cost us to design the F16. Yet...you still have a fighter that performs like an F16. GREAT 70s technology at turn of the century pricing! Now, I am not slamming European engineering or their weapon makers and I would be highly critical of the US for doing the same thing.

I know I would be pissed if it were my tax dollars spent.

Well look on the bright side, now Europe can be imperialistic too!

[aeternum]

I was simply pointing out the costs involved. I mean let's look at it from a political point of view. Rather than buying a new generation F16, you design some new Euro Fighter, it costs you, literally, DOUBLE what it cost us to design the F16. Yet...you still have a fighter that performs like an F16. GREAT 70s technology at turn of the century pricing! Now, I am not slamming European engineering or their weapon makers and I would be highly critical of the US for doing the same thing.

Its all about independence. Why does the US develop the XM8, which is just a derivate of the G36? Because they want to be independent at all costs. They could easily adopt the G36, but the dont - Independence.

If we would only buy US technology, we would depend on the US, on the goodwill of the government. We wouldnt be independent anymore in military and security matters. But we want to become independent, we want to have our own military companies like EADS which is the no2 in the world to be independent. We want to become global players, we want to sell our goods to other countries, we want to gain profit worldwide....

[Durandal]

Its all about independence. Why does the US develop the XM8, which is just a derivate of the G36? Because they want to be independent at all costs. They could easily adopt the G36, but the dont - Independence.

If we would only buy US technology, we would depend on the US, on the goodwill of the government. We wouldnt be independent anymore in military and security matters. But we want to become independent, we want to have our own military companies like EADS which is the no2 in the world to be independent. We want to become global players, we want to sell our goods to other countries, we want to gain profit worldwide....

Heheh you are funny. The XM8 is is a derivative of the OICW carbine (whihc has matching parts to the G36 certainly). Both the XM8 (a mistake in my eyes) AND the OICW are being designed and built by a primarily GERMAN company. The OICW I support BECAUSE it IS a generational leap in firearms...or at least should be. There are a number of small arms...the 92F comes to mind that the US uses because Beretta won the bid. They are made inthe United States, in Maryland actually, just south of Washington, DC. The company though is Italian.

European nations already export large amount of arms, they are already players in the global military community. More so, in some ways than the United States because there are less restrictions placed on them (not a good or bad thing, just an observation).

The point of this, however, is not the global arms market. The Europeans are competing more with the Chinese and Russians than the United States.

I would love to not have ANY American troops in Europe at all. It saves us some money and if the Europeans are all hot**** for us leaving then we should, definately. That is not my point however.

Europe does not have the economic means to become a dominant world miltary power...a truth, not a slam. It would be nice to discuss this without the normal "anti-American" banter...

[aeternum]

Both the XM8 (a mistake in my eyes) AND the OICW are being designed and built by a primarily GERMAN company.

Basically yes, but only because H&K is builing a plant in the US for the production. The US would never every simply buy the G36 like Spain is doing.


I would love to not have ANY American troops in Europe at all.

Couldnt agree more. Lets send the US forces back home.


Europe does not have the economic means to become a dominant world miltary power...a truth, not a slam. It would be nice to discuss this without the normal "anti-American" banter...

EU-25 GDP is larger than the US GDPs... with more population tho, but non the less larger in total numbers.

[Loco]

Basically yes, but only because H&K is builing a plant in the US for the production. The US would never every simply buy the G36 like Spain is doing.

Actually, Spain wanted to license the G36 and making almots of rifles in Spain, but somethings ocurred. Santa Barbara, inc., a state owned factory, was the one which made rifles and other bigs weapons in Spain, and there were conversations for selling Sta.Barbara to a private company, since we don´t want anymore state owned comanys. There were conversations with Krauss-Maffeit, the german company who built Leopards, and you know spanish military has bought about 250 Leopards, who are intended to be built in Spain, and others private companies. At the end, american General Dynamics bought Sta.Barbara, only because it paid the best price. It´s logic and reasonable, I think, isn´t it? But hey! the humble germans got annoyed, and you know today spanish army has an armoured brigade with Leopards rented, since OUR Leopards still aren´t built, some german minister pretended he wanted "his" Leopards came back home in German because we didn´t sell our factory to them. I think this attitude is very few european, or perhaps, is very european, of the Europe of 1939. Of course, we have OUR rented Leopard here because we pay the rent, anybody who want to take away our Leopards better have a bigger tank than us, because we´re goint to beat his face. But, let´s talk again of the G36. H&K is a german company, although today is owned by a british company, but since Spain sold Sta.Barbara to USA, I may be wrong, today we don´t know if we could license and making G36 in Spain. Krauss-Maffeit and H&K are different companies, but both are private and germans, I don´t know why they act as if they were One German State Owned Company.
About France, they seem to know something about Europe the rest of europeans we don´t know about ourselves. They do know all things about what is good for us and about what is bad, and even they speak in the name of all europeans, and I positively know we didn´t let France speaking in the name of us. What happened this week is a very bad situation. Two countries, the same German and France who talk in the name of all european countries, broke a previous economic stability pact and they won´t be punished, and they want to talk about the independence of Europe when they have betrayed our confidence and the previous pact they and us signed. Independence of what? of who? When Spain joined the EU in 1986 we were an independent country, but now some important decissions about our economy are chosen in Paris and in Berlin. That it isn´t what we signed. I don´t want be in a union like that with Paris and Berlin. We do know how to be independents. And I want Chirac and Villepin stop of talking of Europe, better they talk of France.
All this matter about the EU force, and the union or France and German is ridiculous.
First time we talked about and european force was because of the ex-Yugoslavia war, because the UN, and Nato too, wasn´t good for stopping that war. I think is possible divide the job inside Nato and assign some military units to every threat inside of any eastern country, a fast reaction force with a previous protocol, that it´s all what we need.
And of course, France and German better forget of building an empire of 25 countries in which they say what is good for the rest of us, becasue we won´t let them doing that. If they wan´t to make some kind of a franco-german empire with a new Charlemagne, come on, it´ll be a funny show to see, but I repeat, I don´t want they talk in the name of europe but in the name of their own interests.
And I want just now Spain leave of euro coin.
And, last but not least, I want to be fair with everybody. I think it´s necessary strong europeans industries of defense always they serve interests of all europeans, because in Spain we know we had to buy Mirages, very good planes by the way, because USA didn´t let use the Sabre we had paid in cash against Marroq in a war that Marroq began with us in 1957, and since then we know we can´t trust 100% in USA, really, in any other country. Every country only want its onw interest, we must be sincere. Once we recognize this, we can talk loyalty, not before.

[aeternum]

H&K is a german company, although today is owned by a british company

Wrong since 2002 H&K is again completly in german hands.

source: http://www.baesystems.com/facts/awards/evolution6.htm


December 2002: BAE SYSTEMS plc completes the sale of Heckler & Koch small arms business to Heckler & Koch Beteiligungs GmbH



Krauss-Maffeit and H&K are different companies, but both are private and germans, I don´t know why they act as if they were One German State Owned Company.

Well they are private indeed, but military technology is pretty senitive. Since its the German Government which does buy most of the technology/products of those mentioned companies, they have a pretty much say. Without those contracts from the German Army, both companies wouldnt survive.

[Loco]

Wrong since 2002 H&K is again completly in german hands.
Thanks Aeternum, I didn´t know it.
source: http://www.baesystems.com/facts/awards/evolution6.htm[/quote]


Well they are private indeed, but military technology is pretty senitive. Since its the German Government which does buy most of the technology/products of those mentioned companies, they have a pretty much say. Without those contracts from the German Army, both companies wouldnt survive.
It doesn´t excuse german government of respecting previous deals that germans companies signed with spanish, and I remember everybody here, in UE, live in a free market, and there are rules for governments eviting helping privates companys, and again and again, rules are the same for everybody in this civilizated? continent. Not to mention Spain is in UE and an alllied country of German. Anyway, German and France are going to respect their commintments they signed wether if they like or not, they can´t use the money of others in the way they want.

Loco,
Ave hispaniorum, Aeternum, from a true old europe country. ;)
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:b3YduIpEwA0C:www.segoviamint.org/images/segovia/acueducto.jpg

[aeternum]

It doesn´t excuse german government of respecting previous deals that germans companies signed with spanish..

Well i can only guess on this issue, but maybe they were worried about the fact that the spanish company got in US hands (General Dynamic ?), while they want to licence-produce the Leo 2 tank... This would indeed give the US company (Generel Electric) the blue-prints of the Leo 2 tank. As the Leo 2 is a direct competitor to the M1 on the world market it would have a direct influence on his success and on business in Germany.