F-16 Block 60!

[DLodge]

As if the F-16I wasn't cool enough, along comes the "Desert Falcon"
http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album42/aaa.sized.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album42/aad.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album42/aae.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album42/aaf.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album42/aag.jpg

Lots of info and some more pictures can be found at the website of Lockheed Martin's official magazine here http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2003/articles/oct_03/uae/index.html

Too bad the hottest F-16 in the world belongs to the UAE and not the good ol' US of A. Seems kind of unfair, but then again, them's the rules of modern international arms trading.

[IDFM203]

Too bad the hottest F-16 in the world belongs to the UAE Defiantly a sweet plane but if I am not mistaken the hottest plane is the Israeli F16I that has the same features but with added Israeli avionics that I guarantee you the UAE plane doesn’t have.

I am going to post three pics and a link to the IAF F16I thread that I posted last week.

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/abv.sized.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/idf-af_f-16i_253_front_port.jpg
http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2003/november/dotz-13.11.03-11.jpg
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5503

As for why the U.S. doesnt have them, well I think perhaps its because the U.S. is focusing on the JSF program and the F22 so it doesnt really need these F16's.

Now if the UAE version is different or better then I honestly ask how so??? I am seriously intrested.........

shalom :D

[DLodge]

Heh, heh, how did I guess you would ask that? The Block 60 has more powerful engines, for one. But here, I'll quote from the article I posted (written by the manufacturers of both the F-16I and F-16E/F so you can't claim they're partial!)

Internal differences, on the other hand, add up to a huge improvement in capability over previous-generation F-16s and place the Block 60 at the leading edge of fourth-generation fighters.

These internal differences are most apparent in the cockpit, which is dominated by three large five- by seven-inch color multifunction displays. Onboard computers collect and process information from the various sensors and off-aircraft sources and transmit the results to the pilot in straightforward color graphics. The all-glass cockpit features hands-on throttle and sidestick switch controls, a color moving map, picture-in-picture digital display technology, night vision goggle-compatible lighting, and a standard head-up display.

The Desert Falcon has many automated modes, including autopilot, auto-throttle, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system. The electronic warfare system, produced by Northrop Grumman, is the most sophisticated subsystem on the aircraft and provides threat warning, threat emitter locating capability, and increased situational awareness to the pilot. A new data transfer cartridge holds thirty gigabytes of information. A fiber-optic databus handles the throughput and speed needed for many of these systems. The maintenance system is laptop based.

The APG-80 agile beam radar underpins many of the new capabilities the Block 60 brings to the F-16. The radar, also produced by Northrop Grumman, is an advanced electronically scanned array. The array consists of numerous transmit/receive modules attached to a fixed array that generates the radar beam, which can be directed almost instantaneously. The electronic, instead of mechanical, approach allows various radar modes to be interleaved. For example, the radar can continuously search for and track multiple targets and simultaneously perform multiple functions, such as air-to-air search-and-track, air-to-ground targeting, and aircraft terrain following. The radar vastly improves the pilot?s situational awareness. Additional advantages of the APG-80 include much greater detection ranges, high-resolution synthetic aperture radar images, and a twofold increase in reliability compared to more conventional mechanically scanning radars.

Basically, the F-16I is a vastly improved F-16 Block 50/52 (the same varient employed by the USAF) while the Block 60 is an entire level up with its new radar, cockpit, end EW suite. And, while the local Israeli improvements to the Su'fa (is that what it's called?) will be beneficial, they cannot radically alter the radar (contract issues with Northrop Grumman). Sure the Python 5 might help even the playing field, but the Block 60 has helmet-mounted sight capability and it's almost a given that the UAE will buy AIM-9Xs. Disregarding all other factors (because their pilot experience/tactics might be enough to allow the IAF to overcome these deficits), if the two birds went head-to-head the UAE Vipers would have first-shot capability every time and better maneuverability in a dogfight, thanks to their better engines, as well.

Again I may be wrong, and y'all may put in some top-secret miracle avionics, but all the open source printed material out there reiterates what I've said above.

[IDFM203]

hehe I am beginning to really like you ;) (oh and I knew you would be back with this………..)

Ok again it all boils down to Israeli avionics and components. The fact is that Israel and the UAE bought or ordered these planes around the same time (as you’ll see the article mentions the UAE), but the UAE bought their planes "off the shelf" so to speak as it was made solely in the U.S. with all U.S. components and without any of their input (meaning there are no UAE parts or avionics in them, if they even make any such thing). Israel on the other hand doesn’t buy "off the shelf" for it first inspects and overalls the plane and adds its own improved avionics and electronics. In fact the F16I Israeli parts and avionics, constitute approximately 25 percent of the aircraft!!!

Most real detailed information is classified but suffice to say Israel had the option of the UAE model but yet chose F16I with its Israeli avionics, that says all I need to know about which is better!!

Oh and the Python 5 and DASH don’t “merely help even the playing field”, but rather give the clear advantage to the Israeli plane!! (I think you severely underestimate the lethality and supremacy that the Israeli DASH and the python 5 give to the Israeli plane!!)

Oh and lastly, again the most important component that gives the Israeli plane its edge even more then its Israeli electronics and avionics, is the Israeli pilot!!! :D

Here is a long public article about the F16I

The F-16I is a heavily modified two seat version of the U.S. Air Force’s F-16D Block 50/52-series fighter. In addition to the new and more powerful Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine, the F-16I boasts numerous internal and external advancements and modifications. For example, the Sufa has been customized with new avionic technologies, internally mounted FLIR (forward looking infrared) viewers, and cutting edge weapon system hardware provided by the Israeli defense company Lahav - a division of Israel Aircraft Industries.
The Lahav technology will allow for simultaneous, multi-target air-to-air engagement and increased standoff and survivability capabilities. The F-16I has been earmarked to receive the new Python 5 imaging infrared-guided high agility air-to-air missile produced by Rafael, the former Israeli Armaments Development Authority. The predecessor to the Python 5, the Python 4, was regarded to be the most advanced heat-seeking missile in the world. The Python 5 boasts a new seeker less ****e to countermeasures, lock-after-launch capabilities, and an extended operational engagement time once fired. In addition, the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-68(V)9 multimode radar increases the distance of airborne engagement by 30 percent over the older APG-69 system and affords the "Sufa" with a high-resolution synthetic-aperture ground mapping capability.
Complementing the upgraded weapon systems is a dorsal compartment containing enhanced mission avionics and chaff and flare dispensers, enabling it to conduct either pilot training or combat missions. In addition, removable conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) have been added along the fuselage and above the wing roots, freeing-up underwing hard points for additional armaments. The F-16I has an unrefueled combat strike radius well in excess of 500 miles. The extended flight range allows Israeli forces to attack targets well within Iran and Libya without having to refuel. In addition, the cockpit of the F-16I has been expanded to provide for the addition of an onboard weapons officer situated behind the pilot. It has a 820 non-refueling radius of operation.
Israel had originally ordered 50 F-16Is in 2001 but increased the purchase to 102 after deciding against the procurement of additional F-15Is. The acquisition of the Sufa compliments Israel’s deterrent strategy by further strengthening the threat to carry out retaliatory strikes throughout the Middle East while at the same time allowing the IAF to retire aging A-4 Skyhawks and F-4E Phantom IIs in service with the IAF since the late 1960s.
Three squadrons of the new aircraft are expected to be operational from the Ramon airbase deep inside the Negev by 2008 with the first strike aircraft arriving next month.
With the arrival of the 102 F-16Is, Israel will have a total of 362 of the jets – the largest fleet in any country in the world behind the United States. The F-16s are the backbone of the IAF, but these new "I" models will give added punch to the long-range capabilities of the IAF and will complement the squadron of F-15Is Israel received in the end of the 1990s.
The F-16I-series has a two-seat cockpit configuration with advanced avionic technologies, new weapons, and improved Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engines and is similar to the F-16D model in service with the USAF. The aircraft are equipped with FLIR (forward-looking infrared) viewers, for target designation, and features increased external fuel capacity in conformal fuel tanks, increasing the aircraft range to 800 miles (1,500 km). These systems give the F-16s new combat capabilities including simultaneous, multi-target air-to-air intercept, standoff, all-weather precision strike and enhanced survivability against the most advanced threats. It is expected that the Israelis will equip the F-16s with the advanced RAFAEL Derby medium-range air-to-air missile, RAFAEL Python-4 and Python-5 short-range air-to-air missile. The Derby is a radar-guided missile similar to the American AIM-120 AMRAAM. Advanced radar seeker performance enables the engagement of several targets from short ranges to beyond visual range. The Python-4, widely considered to be the finest heat-seeking missile in the world, is capable of engaging targets within a wider area than the current U.S. AIM-9 Sidewinder
Israel is acquiring an advanced version of the aircraft designated as the F-16I. The configuration includes updated avionics, color cockpit displays, and a helmet-mounted display all manufactured by the Israel-based global defense company Elbit; an advanced electronic warfare suite manufactured the Israeli company Elisra; advanced weapons and sensors manufactured by the Israeli Government-owned company Rafael; and other improved systems. Israel Aircraft Industries will continue its long tradition of producing F-16 airframe components. These and other Israeli companies will contribute approximately 25 percent of the aircraft.
Lockheed came into this deal with a conformal fuel tank specifically designed for Israel, and possibly the United Arab Emirates, which allows the latest F-16's jet match the F-15I's range. The price of the F-16 is about half of the F-15. Lockheed was also more aggressive than Boeing in the contracts it promised to local defense industries.
A: Conformal Fuel Tanks
The most distinguishing external feature of an Advanced Block 50/52, when installed, is a set of conformal fuel tanks attached to the upper fuselage. All of these latest F-16s have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the conformal tanks. The tank set holds 450 gallons (more than 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8. The extra fuel increases range, loiter time, and combat persistence as well as reduces the demand for tanker support. Range increase is on the order of twenty to forty percent, depending on the stores configuration and mission profile.
The conformals, which can be used in lieu of wing tanks, free the inner wing store stations and can double the primary air-to-ground payload. The tanks have an imperceptible effect on the F-16’s agility, handling qualities, flight limits, and signature. Moreover, the tanks do not interfere with daily inspections and servicing, and the impact on maintenance access is minimal. A complete set can be removed or replaced in two hours by a small crew and a hoist.

B: 600-Gallon Wing Tanks
The Advanced Block 50/52 variant is certified to carry the 600-gallon wing fuel tanks. These tanks increase range or persistence up to thirty percent over the standard 370-gallon wing tanks. The tanks are mounted on non-jettisonable pylons that can also carry the more common 370-gallon tanks.
C: Landing Gear
The Advanced Block 50/52 versions have heavy-weight landing gear designed for up to 52,000 pounds maximum takeoff gross weight.

D: Radar
Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-68(V)9 multimode radar will enable crews to detect airborne threats from a range 30% greater than the existing APG-69 system and adds a synthetic-aperture radar mode for high-resolution ground mapping.

A major enhancement is the Northrop Grumman 600-gallon wing fuel tanks multimode radar, one of the most advanced radars in the skies today. This radar has more than fivefold faster processing speed and tenfold greater memory capacity over the previous APG-68(V)7/8 radar. The new processors have even higher growth potential.
A high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. In conjunction with inertially aided weapons, such as GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition, the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon, and CBU-103/104/105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser, the F-16 gains an enhanced capability for all-weather precision strike from standoff distances. The radar features an inertial measurement unit that improves dynamic tracking performance and provides an auto-boresight capability, which increases accuracy and eliminates the need for time-consuming mechanical boresighting.
Air-to-air improvements in-clude a thirty percent increase in detection range and improvements in functionality and tracking quality in various modes.
Radar reliability is increased by fifty percent to nearly 400 hours mean time between failures. Commercial off-the-shelf technology is expected to improve supportability significantly. Using off-the-shelf technology resolves existing issues with availability and cost of spare parts and also makes technology refreshes more affordable.

E: Targeting System
The Advanced Block 50/52 can employ the latest generation targeting systems, such as the Lockheed Martin Sniper XR/Pantera targeting pod that is mounted on the right inlet sensor station. In conjunction with laser-guided bombs, the pod provides day/night precision strikes from high altitudes. Among other uses, the targeting systems can be used for seeker cueing of a variety of guided weapons and covert air-to-air operations.

F: Navigation and Reconnaissance Pods
A navigation pod, such as LANTIRN/Pathfinder, can be fitted to the left inlet sensor station. A variety of reconnaissance pods can be carried on the centerline fuselage station.
G: Cockpit
The Advanced Block 50/52 cockpit features a helmet-mounted cueing system, color multifunction displays and recording equipment, cockpit lighting and external strip lighting compatible with night vision goggles, and large-capacity data transfer sets. A choice of helmet-mounted cueing systems is available. These systems allow a pilot to direct sensors or weapons to his line of sight or to help him find a designated target. The helmet display also provides critical flight and target information to the pilot — similar to a head-up display, but in any direction the pilot looks.

H: Dorsal Avionics Compartment
All two-seat models of the Advanced Block 50/52 have a distinctive dorsal avionics compartment that allows these aircraft to accommodate all of the systems of the single-seat model as well as some special mission equipment and additional chaff/flare dispensers. The rear cockpit can be configured for either a weapon system operator or an instructor pilot and can be converted with a single switch in the cockpit.
I: Engines
The Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft have a common engine bay that allows customers a choice of engines in the 29,000-pound thrust class. The Block 50s are powered by the General Electric F110-GE-129 and have the Modular Common Inlet Duct (known as the large mouth inlet). The Block 52s are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 and have a Normal Shock Inlet (known as the small mouth inlet).

Now all this is what is known publicly but as you know, most of the Israeli avionics is in fact kept secret and classified but again that 25 percent of the plane being Israeli made defiantly stands out as mitigating factor as to why it’s a better plane.

Just curious btw, the UAE planes have UAE pilots or American ones?? I know that the Saudi F-117A’s were flown by U.S. pilots, is that the same with the UAE????

shalom :D

[EvanL]

hehe I am beginning to really like you ;) (oh and I knew you would be back with this………..)

Ok again it all boils down to Israeli avionics and components. The fact is that Israel and the UAE bought these planes around the same time (as you’ll see the article mentions the UAE), but the UAE bought their planes "off the shelf" so to speak as it was made solely in the U.S. with all U.S. components and without any of their input (meaning there are no UAE parts or avionics in them, if they even make any such thing). Israel on the other hand doesn’t buy "off the shelf" stuff for it first inspects and overalls the plane and adds its own improved avionics and electronics. In fact the F16I Israeli parts and avionics, constitute approximately 25 percent of the aircraft!!!

Most real detailed information is classified but suffice to say Israel had the option of the UAE model but yet chose F16I with its Israeli avionics, that says all I need to know about which is better!!

Oh and the Python 5 and DASH don’t “merely help even the playing field”, but rather give the clear advantage to the Israeli plane!! (I think you severely underestimate the lethality and supremacy that the Israeli DASH and the python 5 give to the Israeli plane!!)

Oh and lastly, again the most important component that gives the Israeli plane its edge even more then its Israeli electronics and avionics, is the Israeli pilot!!! :D

Here is a long public article about the F16I

The F-16I is a heavily modified two seat version of the U.S. Air Force’s F-16D Block 50/52-series fighter. In addition to the new and more powerful Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine, the F-16I boasts numerous internal and external advancements and modifications. For example, the Sufa has been customized with new avionic technologies, internally mounted FLIR (forward looking infrared) viewers, and cutting edge weapon system hardware provided by the Israeli defense company Lahav - a division of Israel Aircraft Industries.
The Lahav technology will allow for simultaneous, multi-target air-to-air engagement and increased standoff and survivability capabilities. The F-16I has been earmarked to receive the new Python 5 imaging infrared-guided high agility air-to-air missile produced by Rafael, the former Israeli Armaments Development Authority. The predecessor to the Python 5, the Python 4, was regarded to be the most advanced heat-seeking missile in the world. The Python 5 boasts a new seeker less ****e to countermeasures, lock-after-launch capabilities, and an extended operational engagement time once fired. In addition, the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-68(V)9 multimode radar increases the distance of airborne engagement by 30 percent over the older APG-69 system and affords the "Sufa" with a high-resolution synthetic-aperture ground mapping capability.
Complementing the upgraded weapon systems is a dorsal compartment containing enhanced mission avionics and chaff and flare dispensers, enabling it to conduct either pilot training or combat missions. In addition, removable conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) have been added along the fuselage and above the wing roots, freeing-up underwing hard points for additional armaments. The F-16I has an unrefueled combat strike radius well in excess of 500 miles. The extended flight range allows Israeli forces to attack targets well within Iran and Libya without having to refuel. In addition, the cockpit of the F-16I has been expanded to provide for the addition of an onboard weapons officer situated behind the pilot. It has a 820 non-refueling radius of operation.
Israel had originally ordered 50 F-16Is in 2001 but increased the purchase to 102 after deciding against the procurement of additional F-15Is. The acquisition of the Sufa compliments Israel’s deterrent strategy by further strengthening the threat to carry out retaliatory strikes throughout the Middle East while at the same time allowing the IAF to retire aging A-4 Skyhawks and F-4E Phantom IIs in service with the IAF since the late 1960s.
Three squadrons of the new aircraft are expected to be operational from the Ramon airbase deep inside the Negev by 2008 with the first strike aircraft arriving next month.
With the arrival of the 102 F-16Is, Israel will have a total of 362 of the jets – the largest fleet in any country in the world behind the United States. The F-16s are the backbone of the IAF, but these new "I" models will give added punch to the long-range capabilities of the IAF and will complement the squadron of F-15Is Israel received in the end of the 1990s.
The F-16I-series has a two-seat cockpit configuration with advanced avionic technologies, new weapons, and improved Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engines and is similar to the F-16D model in service with the USAF. The aircraft are equipped with FLIR (forward-looking infrared) viewers, for target designation, and features increased external fuel capacity in conformal fuel tanks, increasing the aircraft range to 800 miles (1,500 km). These systems give the F-16s new combat capabilities including simultaneous, multi-target air-to-air intercept, standoff, all-weather precision strike and enhanced survivability against the most advanced threats. It is expected that the Israelis will equip the F-16s with the advanced RAFAEL Derby medium-range air-to-air missile, RAFAEL Python-4 and Python-5 short-range air-to-air missile. The Derby is a radar-guided missile similar to the American AIM-120 AMRAAM. Advanced radar seeker performance enables the engagement of several targets from short ranges to beyond visual range. The Python-4, widely considered to be the finest heat-seeking missile in the world, is capable of engaging targets within a wider area than the current U.S. AIM-9 Sidewinder
Israel is acquiring an advanced version of the aircraft designated as the F-16I. The configuration includes updated avionics, color cockpit displays, and a helmet-mounted display all manufactured by the Israel-based global defense company Elbit; an advanced electronic warfare suite manufactured the Israeli company Elisra; advanced weapons and sensors manufactured by the Israeli Government-owned company Rafael; and other improved systems. Israel Aircraft Industries will continue its long tradition of producing F-16 airframe components. These and other Israeli companies will contribute approximately 25 percent of the aircraft.
Lockheed came into this deal with a conformal fuel tank specifically designed for Israel, and possibly the United Arab Emirates, which allows the latest F-16's jet match the F-15I's range. The price of the F-16 is about half of the F-15. Lockheed was also more aggressive than Boeing in the contracts it promised to local defense industries.
A: Conformal Fuel Tanks
The most distinguishing external feature of an Advanced Block 50/52, when installed, is a set of conformal fuel tanks attached to the upper fuselage. All of these latest F-16s have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the conformal tanks. The tank set holds 450 gallons (more than 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8. The extra fuel increases range, loiter time, and combat persistence as well as reduces the demand for tanker support. Range increase is on the order of twenty to forty percent, depending on the stores configuration and mission profile.
The conformals, which can be used in lieu of wing tanks, free the inner wing store stations and can double the primary air-to-ground payload. The tanks have an imperceptible effect on the F-16’s agility, handling qualities, flight limits, and signature. Moreover, the tanks do not interfere with daily inspections and servicing, and the impact on maintenance access is minimal. A complete set can be removed or replaced in two hours by a small crew and a hoist.

B: 600-Gallon Wing Tanks
The Advanced Block 50/52 variant is certified to carry the 600-gallon wing fuel tanks. These tanks increase range or persistence up to thirty percent over the standard 370-gallon wing tanks. The tanks are mounted on non-jettisonable pylons that can also carry the more common 370-gallon tanks.
C: Landing Gear
The Advanced Block 50/52 versions have heavy-weight landing gear designed for up to 52,000 pounds maximum takeoff gross weight.

D: Radar
Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-68(V)9 multimode radar will enable crews to detect airborne threats from a range 30% greater than the existing APG-69 system and adds a synthetic-aperture radar mode for high-resolution ground mapping.

A major enhancement is the Northrop Grumman 600-gallon wing fuel tanks multimode radar, one of the most advanced radars in the skies today. This radar has more than fivefold faster processing speed and tenfold greater memory capacity over the previous APG-68(V)7/8 radar. The new processors have even higher growth potential.
A high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. In conjunction with inertially aided weapons, such as GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition, the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon, and CBU-103/104/105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser, the F-16 gains an enhanced capability for all-weather precision strike from standoff distances. The radar features an inertial measurement unit that improves dynamic tracking performance and provides an auto-boresight capability, which increases accuracy and eliminates the need for time-consuming mechanical boresighting.
Air-to-air improvements in-clude a thirty percent increase in detection range and improvements in functionality and tracking quality in various modes.
Radar reliability is increased by fifty percent to nearly 400 hours mean time between failures. Commercial off-the-shelf technology is expected to improve supportability significantly. Using off-the-shelf technology resolves existing issues with availability and cost of spare parts and also makes technology refreshes more affordable.

E: Targeting System
The Advanced Block 50/52 can employ the latest generation targeting systems, such as the Lockheed Martin Sniper XR/Pantera targeting pod that is mounted on the right inlet sensor station. In conjunction with laser-guided bombs, the pod provides day/night precision strikes from high altitudes. Among other uses, the targeting systems can be used for seeker cueing of a variety of guided weapons and covert air-to-air operations.

F: Navigation and Reconnaissance Pods
A navigation pod, such as LANTIRN/Pathfinder, can be fitted to the left inlet sensor station. A variety of reconnaissance pods can be carried on the centerline fuselage station.
G: Cockpit
The Advanced Block 50/52 cockpit features a helmet-mounted cueing system, color multifunction displays and recording equipment, cockpit lighting and external strip lighting compatible with night vision goggles, and large-capacity data transfer sets. A choice of helmet-mounted cueing systems is available. These systems allow a pilot to direct sensors or weapons to his line of sight or to help him find a designated target. The helmet display also provides critical flight and target information to the pilot — similar to a head-up display, but in any direction the pilot looks.

H: Dorsal Avionics Compartment
All two-seat models of the Advanced Block 50/52 have a distinctive dorsal avionics compartment that allows these aircraft to accommodate all of the systems of the single-seat model as well as some special mission equipment and additional chaff/flare dispensers. The rear cockpit can be configured for either a weapon system operator or an instructor pilot and can be converted with a single switch in the cockpit.
I: Engines
The Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft have a common engine bay that allows customers a choice of engines in the 29,000-pound thrust class. The Block 50s are powered by the General Electric F110-GE-129 and have the Modular Common Inlet Duct (known as the large mouth inlet). The Block 52s are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 and have a Normal Shock Inlet (known as the small mouth inlet).

Now all this is what is known publicly but as you know, most of the Israeli avionics is in fact kept secret and classified but again that 25 percent of the plane being Israeli made defiantly stands out as mitigating factor as to why it’s a better plane.

Just curious btw, the UAE planes have UAE pilots or American ones?? I know that the Saudi F-117A’s were flown by U.S. pilots, is that the same with the UAE????

shalom :D
Saudi Arabia has and never will have F-117s.

[DLodge]

Whew, alright here we go.

I would be interested in reading anything that indicates Israel turned down the Block 60 in favor of the F-16I for performance reasons. They probably did so because of the price, as some estimates have put the Block 60 in the $80 million range (because the UAE had to finance R&D on the new radar and some of the systems) while the Sufa is "only" $55 million. An F-16 Block 60 with Israeli components and the Python 5 would really be a jet to be reckoned with, and one that would surely outperform the current F-16I. Now onto specific capabilities...

Radar: This is perhaps the most important avionics component of any modern fighter jet, and here the Block 60 clearly has an edge. While the Sufa's APG-69(V)9 is an improvement over previous models, the Block 60's APG-80 is certainly superior thanks to AESA. Here is a comment from the German aerospace magazine Flug-Revue regarding the radar options for the two jets (note that this is before the Israeli varient of the radar had a definite designation, the author simply calls it the APG-68(V)XM):

The radar naturally remains the F-16's primary sensor, and here Northrop Grumman is developing new versions of its APG-68. The APG-68(V)XM now has an SAR mode and can therefore produce highly accurate radar maps for the deployment of precision weapons. The range of the upgraded radar is 25% greater, while its reliability has doubled. Among other things, the receiver and computer have been replaced by commercial off-the-shelf products. The radar is also intended as a retrofit item. Northrop Grumman is going one step further for the UAE, whose radar antenna will have active electronic beam scanning. This apparently should enable targets with a radar cross-section of one square metre to be acquired at a distance of approx. 120km (65nm) - a distinct improvement on the F-15 Eagle.
The entire article can be found here:
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0009/FR0009e.htm
Israel is forbidden from changing the radar as stipulated in their contract with Northrop Grumman (and rumor has it they fought tooth and nail over that little provision).

Cockpit: Although the F-16I will have an advanced cockpit with fancy new Elbit equipment, the Block 60 beats it out here once again with an additional MFD in addition to other upgrades comparable, and perhaps superior to, the Israeli modifications.

Block 60 cockpit:
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2003/articles/oct_03/uae/images/UAE-B60Ckpt_500.jpg
Compare that to the F-16I cockpit posted on the other thread and you can see the difference. Eventually the Block 60 will also be fully compatible with the Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System (JHMCS), America's helmet-mounted sight. The JHMCS was designed by Elbit and is an improvement on DASH I. Here is a quote from an Elbit Systems press release ("fixed wing HMD technology" refers to the DASH):

Elbit Systems' fixed wing HMD technology is a base for the U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) program. Through its VSI subsidiary, all frontline U.S. fighters (F-16, F/A-18, F-15 and F-22) are being equipped with the JHMCS. Additionally, VSI was selected by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company to be its HMD source for the Joint Strike Fighter, the most advanced fighter of the coming decade.

EW Suite: Impossible to discuss as most of the information is classified, but Northrop claims that the Block 60 has the most advanced components it could provide.

You wrote that:

Israel on the other hand doesn?t buy "off the shelf" for it first inspects and overalls the plane and adds its own improved avionics and electronics. ... most of the Israeli avionics is in fact kept secret and classified but again that 25 percent of the plane being Israeli made defiantly stands out as mitigating factor as to why it?s a better plane.
Why are you so convinced that Israeli avionics are superior? Because Israel has insisted they be included? There are many important reasons besides pure performance for a country to insist contracts go to local corporations; reasons that include parts commonality, favorable pricing, efficiency/ease of maintenance, and a desire to support national businesses. Suffice it to say that the Israeli government has a compelling interest in providing Israeli companies with business, especially state-owned companies like Rafael. In fact, the article you have posted says that:

The price of the F-16 is about half of the F-15. Lockheed was also more aggressive than Boeing in the contracts it promised to local defense industries.
This comment seems to imply that the main reason for the purchase of the Sufa over the F-15I was cost, and implicit in that was Lockheed's promise that Israeli industry would get more of a share of the project than Boeing was willing to allow. Seems to me the main concern here was not that Israel could produce systems that were really any better than Lockheed/Northrop could, just that Israeli companies were producing them. Moreover, most estimates by publications that make it their job to know this sort of stuff (Jane's Defense Weekly and Aviation Week to name two) rate Israeli systems pretty much on a par with top-of-the line American equipment, not better. Of course there will always be some exceptions (the Python comes to mind), but for the most part Israel and the U.S. are jointly recognized as the leaders in combat systems development. Thus, while Israeli components have rightly earned an excellent reputation, the components that Northrop or Lockheed produce are just as good. There is no reason to assume that the F-16I's upgrades are any better than what is being installed "off-the-shelf" on the Block 60. Some of it may be better, some of it may be worse, but the simple fact that it is built in Israel does not immediately indicate its superiority.

As far as missiles, if and when the UAE buys the AIM-9X they will have a weapon comparable to both Pythons--not equal to the Python 5, but not so inferior that it couldn't hold its own. Of course, if there is a smart pilot at the controls of the Block 60, he will want to use his superior radar to take out the F-16I at the limits of his AIM-120 where WVR missiles won't even come into play. The Derby is considered to be roughly equivalent to the AMRAAM, and even if the F-16I were carrying a more capable MRM it couldn't shoot what it couldn't see. Bear in mind that if the two F-16s did engage in ACM the Block 60 will have an advantage in maneuverability due to its more powerful engines, and the DASH and JHMCS will cancel each other out.

In summary, the F-16I has better short-range missiles, maybe a slight superiority in EW, and a clear inferiority in radar and engine power. The Israeli enhancements to the F-16I will only bring it up to the level of the Block 60, and in some cases not even that (the cockpit is one example). In addition, the most important factor in air-to-air combat--the radar--cannot be upgraded. Even with all the fancy Elbit and Rafael systems in the world, even with the all latest Pythons, the F-16I will still not have the all-important first-shot capability against the Block 60. And that could be decisive.

Of course I am supposing that all other factors are equal (and the pilots certainly aren't but we're discussing the machines here, not the men). We both know that, even with a full complement of Block 60s, the UAE Air Force would still be defeated by the IAF in the end. In fact, this is why I think Israel didn't push to acquire the advanced features of the Block 60. The IAF, has no need to buy extremely expensive upgrades for the F-16I since there is still a fleet of F-15s on hand and the F/A-22 arriving in the future. The UAE is making this airplane the mainstay of its fighter fleet for the next decade and cannot afford to pass on all the luxuries.

So, in conclusion, the F-16 Block 60 is a superior airplane to the F-16I. Lockheed Martin has even publicly stated that it is "the latest and greatest" F-16 to be produced. However, the entire debate is practically moot because the two were not even intended to fill the same roles in their respective air forces. The F-16I is the airplane that Israel needs and the Block 60 is the airplane that the UAE needs, 'nuff said.

[DLodge]

U.S. pilots are training the UAE guys but I doubt they'll ever fly in anything even loosely approximating combat (such as exercises) with them. I think the Block 60 is only for the UAE folks to play around with, plus anyone else willing to shell out some cash for 'em.

[Operation Ivy]

Uhhh go F-22 Raptor!! :D

[Mr. Nielsen]

I was wondering about the funding of F-16I.

I suppose they are funded by the annual 3 billion dollars Israel gets from the U.S. But I thought they could only be used to buy equipment only from U.S. companies.

So if Israel add's their own avionics do they have to pay for that themselves?

[Deuterium]

An internal, forward-looking infrared navigation sensor mounted as a ball turret on the upper left nose distinguishes the Block 60 from previous F-16s.

Uhhhh so what are those two huge protrusions on the left and right of the cockpit?

[MolliG]

Uhhhh so what are those two huge protrusions on the left and right of the cockpit?

Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs)

Seems like the F-16 is the 21st Century's MiG21/F-104... it's getting around everywhere!

:)

[Zach R.]

I'm a big fan of the F-16, and seeing something like this totally blows my mind. When they rolled the Block 40's off the line, I was in shock. But seeing this, wow, shows you just how far we have come since the Wright brother's first flew in 1903.

[Adri]

F-35 p-)

[AirZone]

whats UAE again ? :backhand:

[Andyman]

United Arab Emirates

[admar2]

that is one loaded down airframe!

[Deuterium]

Now all this is what is known publicly but as you know, most of the Israeli avionics is in fact kept secret and classified but again that 25 percent of the plane being Israeli made defiantly stands out as mitigating factor as to why it’s a better plane.


25% is what? By weight, cost, manufacturing hours, volume? What 25%, rivets, electronics? MAkes a huge difference if we are talking turbine blades vs rivets, altimeters vs targeting radar.

[Deuterium]

Just curious btw, the UAE planes have UAE pilots or American ones?? I know that the Saudi F-117A’s were flown by U.S. pilots, is that the same with the UAE????


This comment is making us all wonder about all the other info you have posted.

[Deuterium]

Most real detailed information is classified but suffice to say Israel had the option of the UAE model but yet chose F16I with its Israeli avionics, that says all I need to know about which is better!!


I'm certainly not an informed source but I'd bet this had more to do with jobs than with improved performance. Prove me wrong with details and I'll be a believer. If not then I'll stick with my supposition. We do the same thing in the US. We buy the berreta 92F but we make it here with American parts. Has all to do with jobs not necessarilly better parts or performance.

[Deuterium]

that is one loaded down airframe!

Didn't notice on the specs, what's the thrust to weight ratio as compared to earlier models and modern fighters?

[fred_engles]

The IAF, has no need to buy extremely expensive upgrades for the F-16I since there is still a fleet of F-15s on hand and the F/A-22 arriving in the future. The UAE is making this airplane the mainstay of its fighter fleet for the next decade and cannot afford to pass on all the luxuries.Two points: First of all, the UAE is really a tiny little country by population (even compared to Israel). I think they have only about 4-5 million residents, and only about a million or so citizens (lots of foreign workers, who presumably don't join the army). Further, the UAE doesn't have conscription, like Israel does. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the UAE's military is simply not a serious player, albeit with lots of expensive toys (the governments there has a nearly unending supply of oil/natural gas money). If memory serves, the M4 carbine was also originally developed for the UAE, so they have a history of funding shiny expensive new playthings. While the UAE might indeed have some damn fine planes (money will do that), I doubt they are much of a real world threat to Israel or anyone else.

Secondly, I personally doubt Israel will be buying the F-22. It's just too bleeding expensive ($200 million each, or thereabouts). That same amount would probably buy three Eurofighters, or maybe a half-dozen or so JSFs. At such incredibly high cost, there's even been serious discussion in washington of canceling the project altogether, even after billions already invested (I personally doubt that will happen - but I think it should). Israel will, I'd guess, be getting a fair number of JSFs though.

Speaking of the Eurofighter, btw, anyone know what the inital reports on that are? It looked to be pretty good. I'd be curious to hear about the Gripen or the Rafale too. (I'd personally like to see Israel and the US buy some Eurofighters, but I know that's not going to happen.)

[DLodge]

Fred, I knew that I'd read somewhere about strong Israeli interest in the Raptor, so prompted by your post I looked did a quick search...

Israel Says ?No Thanks? To F/A-22
*** Israel will not purchase America?s newest strike fighter, the F/A-22 Raptor, and instead will base its future front-line fleet on the planned multirole Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and existing F-16 and F-15 jets.

*** Maj. Gen. Dani Haloutz, who commands the Israel Air Force, said the service concluded it simply could not afford the stealthy aircraft, whose flyaway costs ? according to conservative U.S. Air Force estimates ? will exceed $100 million per copy.
The article is here http://www.defensenews.com/channel.php?C=thisweek, but unfortunately I don't have a subcription so I can't access it.

As far as the UAE is concerned, I'd be inclined to agree with you had I not just read an article on this subject in JDW. I only have the print copy, so I can't post the whole thing but here are some juicy quotes:

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force is poised to strengthen its position as one of the most advanced air arms in the Middle East region, through its introduction from next year of 80 F-16E/F Block 60 fighters. ...Drawing together the military assets of Abu Dhabi and Dubai, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force has a current combat strength of around 33 strike and tactical reconnaissance aircraft and fewer than 20 armed trainers. It is, however, entering a significant period of expansion, by the end of which it will have become one of the best-equipped air wings in the Middle East region. ...Coupled with its $12 billion-plus acquisition of new fighters and air-launched weapons, such enhancements will do much to cement the UAE's ambition of becoming a potent regional force for many years to come.
Seems like the UAE is really getting ambitious eh? This will probably cause some sleepless nights over at IAF HQ!

[Deuterium]

UAE is one of the more "progressive" states. They pride themselves on their education system. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[fred_engles]

Seems like the UAE is really getting ambitious eh? This will probably cause some sleepless nights over at IAF HQ!First of all, no matter how much stuff they buy, UAE simply doesn't have the manpower to become a truly significant danger in war. And, being a tiny country, they will never have the manpower, even if they were to draft their entire combat-worthy citizenry.

More importantly, the F-16I claims a range of around 800 miles according to idfm203 (btw: 800 miles is closer to 1300km, not 1500km). I presume this new version will have similar range. Israel and the UAE are around 1300 miles away from one another, according to this (http://www.indo.com/distance/) (that's the distance for Tel Aviv-Dubai - there are probably closer combinations, but I'm lazy).

Most importantly, however, the UAE has tended to be quite moderate, and has close US ties. I doubt this deal will keep anyone in Israel awake at nights (on a side note, it's been my experience that young Israeli's sleep extremely little anyway - but that's hardly relevant).

[DLodge]

I stand corrected.

[S'13]

Some F-15I (Ra'am) pic's

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/images/f15i.jpg

http://www.waronline.org/analysis/F-15I.jpg

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/AirForce/f15I.jpg

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-15i/f-15i_5.jpg


Entered service in the IAF in 1998.

Specifications:

Specification: McDonnell Douglas F-15E Eagle
Type: two-seat dual-role attack/air superiority fighter.
Powerplant: two Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 afterburning turbofan engines.
Performance: max speed - Mach 2.5 above 36,000ft, service ceiling - 60,000ft, max unrefuelled range - 5745km.
Weights: empty - 14,379kg, max takeoff - 36741kg.
Dimensions: span - 13.05m, length - 19.43m, height - 5.63m.
Armament: one M61A1 Vulcan 20mm six barrel cannon in starboard wing root. single centerline store mountings and two underwing pylons for fuel tanks, AIM-7, AIM-9 or AIM-120. 6 bomb racks on each conformal fuel tank, allowig carriage of 36 Rockeye cluster bombs or six AGM-65 Mavericks

[IDFM203]

Alright, gone for a day and wow………….




I would be interested in reading anything that indicates Israel turned down the Block 60 in favor of the F-16I for performance reasons. They probably did so because of the price, as some estimates have put the Block 60 in the $80 million range (because the UAE had to finance R&D on the new radar and some of the systems) while the Sufa is "only" $55 million. well first of all, I believe Israel gets things a bit cheaper (although I could be wrong). Secondly with 25 percent of it Israeli made, well that can drive down the cost of the F16I that nortrop sells it to Israel for.

In truth I don’t have that information, I just logically assumed it for Israel has a long relationship with the U.S. and with Northrop and as such I guarantee you it knew about block 60) but yet chose to upgrade with 25 percent of its own avionics and electronics to its own F16 and that leads me to assume what I had assumed.



Radar: This is perhaps the most important avionics component of any modern fighter jet, and here the Block 60 clearly has an edge. While the Sufa's APG-69(V)9 is an improvement over previous models, the Block 60's APG-80 is certainly superior thanks to AESA. ok so heres your biggest argument. Well A, besides what’s published we don’t know the true extant of Israel’s F16I radar capabilities. B, other systems on the F16I are better then this one.

I mean again like the F15Ivs. F15E, the difference is marginal and I cant believe that this one deal makes it leaps and bounds greater.

But if it does, then your argument is well received by me.


Israel is forbidden from changing the radar as stipulated in their contract with Northrop Grumman (and rumor has it they fought tooth and nail over that little provision). now this I highly doubt!!! (Unless of course you can prove your rumours). Israel put in 25 percent of the plane, its not like when it comes to radar it wouldn’t be able to modify that as well. It’s a illogical argument to make. I mean Israel always modifies everything it gets, hack even in infantry, you will be shocked and surprised as to what we have modified.


Cockpit: Although the F-16I will have an advanced cockpit with fancy new Elbit equipment, the Block 60 beats it out here once again with an additional MFD in addition to other upgrades comparable, and perhaps superior to, the Israeli modifications. yes and Israel has additional upgrades again we both are being non specific due to a lack of information.



EW Suite: Impossible to discuss as most of the information is classified, but Northrop claims that the Block 60 has the most advanced components it could provide. of course they claim that for their trying to sell this jet!! And Israel has its motivations to claim what it claims so we are still back to square one!!


Why are you so convinced that Israeli avionics are superior? Because Israel has insisted they be included? There are many important reasons besides pure performance for a country to insist contracts go to local corporations; reasons that include parts commonality, favorable pricing, efficiency/ease of maintenance, and a desire to support national businesses. Suffice it to say that the Israeli government has a compelling interest in providing Israeli companies with business, especially state-owned companies like Rafael. In fact, the article you have posted says that: ok let me clear that up. Israel avionics are the same or in some cases better. Remember, in both the U.S. F16’s and in the U.S. F15’s, there are Israeli avionics and parts in them. Now if they were not better in those cases then why would the U.S. incorporate it?!

Yes all your reasons you brought down on top are true, but at the same time, the top quality of Israeli avionics is true as well.

Especially with the air force, like we had in another discussion, Israel cant afford anything less then top quality for its numerical disadvantage against the Arabs are too great that it better have the best performing jets in the air.

Listen if it were all about Israel’s arms industry and not about quality, then Israel could have stayed with the Israeli kafir but it didn’t and it then tried to make its advanced Lavi (it made three prototypes) but yet here too it couldn’t for Israeli produced planes are in fact more expensive. The fact that it took the F16’s and the F15 over its own kafir and Lavi just proves that it went for the cheaper options which came at a detriment to Israel's own industry.
Now I am not saying that the F16 and F15 were less quality but it was cheaper then the Lavi

In fact a lot of the Israeli avionics and electronics came out of the Lavi program.


”The price of the F-16 is about half of the F-15. Lockheed was also more aggressive than Boeing in the contracts it promised to local defense industries.”
This comment seems to imply that the main reason for the purchase of the Sufa over the F-15I was cost, and implicit in that was Lockheed's promise that Israeli industry would get more of a share of the project than Boeing was willing to allow. Seems to me the main concern here was not that Israel could produce systems that were really any better than Lockheed/Northrop could, just that Israeli companies were producing them. Moreover, most estimates by publications that make it their job to know this sort of stuff (Jane's Defense Weekly and Aviation Week to name two) rate Israeli systems pretty much on a par with top-of-the line American equipment, not better. Of course there will always be some exceptions (the Python comes to mind), but for the most part Israel and the U.S. are jointly recognized as the leaders in combat systems development. Thus, while Israeli components have rightly earned an excellent reputation, the components that Northrop or Lockheed produce are just as good. There is no reason to assume that the F-16I's upgrades are any better than what is being installed "off-the-shelf" on the Block 60. Some of it may be better, some of it may be worse, but the simple fact that it is built in Israel does not immediately indicate its superiority. yeah but JDW also rates a lot of Israeli stuff better but yes I agree on a whole they are on par. Again not everything that Israel put in was better but there were some parts that indeed were.


As far as missiles, if and when the UAE buys the AIM-9X they will have a weapon comparable to both Pythons--not equal to the Python 5, but not so inferior that it couldn't hold its own. yes and that’s the same with the radar for the UAE rador is superior to what we know publicly about the Israeli radar has but not so superior that it cant overcome it.

Listen I want to end off that I was in idf infantry (para unit) and as such am not as detailed in air force terminology as you sound, while yes I take an interest I am not fully ingrained in what makes these planes tick also I am severely handicapped by the fact that a lot of information is classified and not made public and as such I cant really go further in this argument then what I already have done…


Seems like the UAE is really getting ambitious eh? This will probably cause some sleepless nights over at IAF HQ! ok in truth I don’t care per say if the UAE has a better plane and no the idf headquarters don’t even wink at the sound of the UAE BUT what’s worrisome is the other sales to other Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt that is a bit worrisome.

Now to a few other posters……….




Just curious btw, the UAE planes have UAE pilots or American ones?? I know that the Saudi F-117A’s were flown by U.S. pilots, is that the same with the UAE????


This comment is making us all wonder about all the other info you have posted. ok first of all most of it was a question and with the Saudi pilots I should have replaced the word I know with I read or heard for I did but obviously I could have been mistaken but come on now, even I can make mistakes ;) :D , to make it as if all my other arguments or posts are false based on that is as you would say in the U.S. “jumping the gun” a bit.

To rephrase, does saudi Arabia have these planes and if they do who are the pilots.



Most real detailed information is classified but suffice to say Israel had the option of the UAE model but yet chose F16I with its Israeli avionics, that says all I need to know about which is better!!


I'm certainly not an informed source but I'd bet this had more to do with jobs than with improved performance. Prove me wrong with details and I'll be a believer. If not then I'll stick with my supposition. We do the same thing in the US. We buy the berreta 92F but we make it here with American parts. Has all to do with jobs not necessarilly better parts or performance. ok first, most details are classified but even Dlodge won’t make the argument that Israeli avionics are less superior, he might say they are on par but no one is claiming that they are less.

Secondly I can bring you a example from the infantry where IMI produced the galil in the 70’s and yet from the mid 80’s till now, the idf infantry has used m16’s and not galil at a detriment to Israel’s arms industry and this preference of quality even if its from a foreign source is much more prevalent in the IAF where there they put all the emphasis on top quality no matter where it comes from simply due to the numerical disadvantage that the IAF faces to the Arabs which force it to field the top quality fighters that it can have.

I also refer you to my above examples with the israel produced kafir and the Lavi which israel made but yet due to cost it went and bough the F16 and the F15 at a huge detriment to israel own homegrown industries.

shalom :D

[Operation Ivy]

At such incredibly high cost, there's even been serious discussion in washington of canceling the project altogether, even after billions already invested (I personally doubt that will happen - but I think it should

Whats wrong with the F-22 besides the cost? ,and secondly what makes the Eurofighter better then the F-22?
I know jack **** bout jets so dont be harsh on me :P (Tanks Rule!)

[fred_engles]

As far as I know (I'm def. no expert) nothing is really wrong with the F-22 besides cost. It is the finest fighter jet in the world, bar none. But it's also hilariously expensive.

I'm sure the Eurofighter is inferior to the F-22. But, to me, it seems like the Eurofighter is 80% as much plane for 40% of the cost. And that sounds like a good deal to me.

[Operation Ivy]

I see :D

[admar2]

As far as I know (I'm def. no expert) nothing is really wrong with the F-22 besides cost. It is the finest fighter jet in the world, bar none. But it's also hilariously expensive.



isn't every piece of military hardware we make outrageously expensive?

that's the American way.
:lol:

[Adri]

As far as I know (I'm def. no expert) nothing is really wrong with the F-22 besides cost. It is the finest fighter jet in the world, bar none. But it's also hilariously expensive.

I'm sure the Eurofighter is inferior to the F-22. But, to me, it seems like the Eurofighter is 80% as much plane for 40% of the cost. And that sounds like a good deal to me.

yeah that is whats going on in Norway rigth now (ok not the F-22 but the F35...they are allmost the same)

the Military wants the F-35 but the goverment wants the Eurofighter.
the goverment wants the Eurofighter cause they have all read made milion deals with norwegian companies, the military wants the F-35 cause then they can fly over Sweden without geting detected ;)

but when it comes to wich plane that is the best of those two:

-the F-35 have a major advantage of stealt.
-the Eurofighter is said to be better at handlig etc...
so it is the same for me wich plane they couse (?)

(damn I'm bad in english... rofl )

[Seiyuuki]

The cost of each F/A-22 Raptor in millions:


DOD's Projected Unit Prices Before and After Restructuring

Before restructuring: Low-Rate: 76-$142.6, Full-Rate: 362-$102.8
Restructured without initiatives: Low-Rate: 70-$200.3, Full-Rate: 368-$128.2
Restructured with initiatives: Low-Rate: 70-$200.8, Full-Rate: 368-$92.4


On 26 October 2001 the Pentagon announced that Lockheed-Martin had won the largest military contract ever, a possible $200 billion competition to build the Joint Strike Fighter. Air Force Secretary Jim Roche said on the basis of strengths, weaknesses and degrees of risk of the program that the Lockheed-Martin team was the winner on a "best- value" basis. He said Lockheed-Martin was a clear winner over the team led by Boeing. Total cost of the contract to enter the systems development and demonstration phase is $19 billion. Pratt and Whitney has a $4 billion contract to design and build propulsion systems for the craft. The British will contribute $2 billion to the program.

Lockheed-Martin teamed with Northrop Grumman and British Aerospace on the project. Pete Aldridge, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, said that both teams "met or exceeded the performance objectives established for the aircraft and have met the established criteria and technical maturity for entering the next phase of the program." Lockheed Martin Corp. is developing the F-35 at its fighter aircraft plant in Fort Worth, where the new stealth warplane is expected to provide about 9,000 jobs over the next three to four decades. Northrop Grumman Corp. is to build the F-35's center fuselage in California and BAE Systems the aft body in England.

The first operational Joint Strike Fighter, now designated as the F-35, is scheduled for delivery in fiscal 2008. The F-35 is actually a family of three aircraft designed to replace aircraft in the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and the British military. A total of 2,852 planes scheduled for delivery starting in 2008 for the US Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and a small number to the British Royal Navy. Other nations interested in participating in the program include the Netherlands, Belgium and Norway.

Plans call for the F-35 to be the world's premier strike aircraft through 2040, Aldridge said. "It will provide air- to-air capability second only to the F-22 air superiority fighter," he said. The plane will allow the Air Force forces to field an almost all-stealth fighter force by 2025. The Navy and Marine variants will be the first deployment of an "all-aspect" stealth airplane.

The Air Force's F-35A version of the craft is a conventional takeoff and landing airplane to replace the F- 16 Falcon and A-10 Thunderbolt II. It will partner with the F-22 Raptor. The Air Force plans to buy 1,763 of the aircraft. The Air Force JSF version is expected to cost about $37 million.

The Navy's F-35B version of the plane is a carrier-based strike fighter to complement the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. It will replace earlier versions of the F/A-18 as well as the A-6 Intruder, which already has left the inventory. The Navy plans to purchase 480 JSF aircraft.

The Marine Corps, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force need and want a short takeoff and vertical landing aircraft, dubbed the F-35C. The Marines want 609 of the new aircraft to replace their AV-8B Harriers and F/A-18 Hornets. The British want 150 to replace Sea Harriers and GR.7 Tornado fighters.

The requirements of 1,763 strike fighters for the Air Force, 609 for the Marine Corps and 480 for the Navy have held steady since the 1997 Quadrennial Defense Review.

Current program estimates peg the recurring JSF unit flyaway costs at $37 million for the Air Force conventional takeoff and landing variant, $46 million for the Marine Corps short takeoff vertical landing variant and $48 million for the Navy carrier version, in 2002 dollars.

The Pentagon requested $3.4 billion for JSF development in fiscal year 2003, up from $1.5 billion in FY2002. The planned budget is $3.8 billion in fiscal 2004, $5.7 billion in 2005 and $5.7 billion in 2006.

F-35/JSF production totals are more likely to be in the 4,000-5,000 aircraft range than the 6,000 sometimes cited.

Eight other countries have agreed to invest a total of $4.375 billion over the next 10 years in the $25 billion Joint Strike Fighter program. Britain has pledged $2 billion, and is the only "Level I" partner in the program. Italy has pledged $1 billion as a Level II partner, and the Netherlands has also pledged to invest $800 million, also becoming a "Level II" partner. The "Level III" partners include Canada [which pledged $150 million], Denmark [$125 million], Norway [pledged to invest $125 million], and Turkey [pledging $175 million]. Australia has also expressed interest in the program.

On May 28, 2002, Memorandum of Understanding documents were signed by the Danish National Armaments Director and the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, committing Denmark to participation in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) system development and demonstration phase. The commitment spans a period of 10 years.

On June 17, 2002, the Netherlands also committed itself to the JSF's system development and demonstration (SDD) phase by exchanging with the Department of Defense memorandum of understanding (MOU) documents. These MOU documents were signed on June 5, 2002, on behalf of the Dutch Cabinet at Soesterberg Airbase (NL) with the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics countersigning the MOU documents in Washington, D.C. on June 10, 2002. As a result, the Netherlands will invest $800 million [€ 848 million] in the SDD effort. The Netherlands has been part of the JSF program since 1997. The Netherlands became the fourth country to join as a JSF SDD phase partner, and the first 'Level 2' partner. The Dutch commitment spans ten years. For the previous two and a half years, the Netherlands had conducted a rigorous technical and financial analysis of potential candidates to replace its F-16s. In both assessments, the JSF ranked first.

On June 20, 2002, the Norwegian National Armaments Director and the U.S. Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology signed memorandum of understanding documents committing Norway to participation in the Joint Strike Fighter system development and demonstration (SDD) phase for a period of ten years.

On June 24, 2002, the Italian Secretary General of Defense and National Armaments Director and the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics signed and exchanged memorandum of understanding (MOU) documents for Italian partnership in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) System Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase. Under the previous Concept Demonstration Phase (CDP) MOU from 1998 to 2001, both the United States and Italy had benefited from JSF ship suitability efforts and associated environmental studies. The Italian government was, as a result, to invest $1.028 billion [€ 1.09 Billion] in the SDD phase. As the senior Level II partner, Italian Air Force and Navy personnel is to occupy five positions within the JSF Program Office. These individuals are to be working together with the United States and its international partners, as well as the JSF air system and engine contractors, to develop an affordable system ready for transition to production.

In late June 2002 the Australian Government decided buy Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. Australia intends to buy up to 100 aircraft, at a cost of more than US$ 4.5 billion [$8 billion Australian], to replace Australia's aging F/A-18s and F-111s. In October 2002 Australia committed to provide $150 million for development of the F-35. Eight nations have pledged about $4.5 billion to join the United States in the $25 billion development phase of the program.

On July 11, 2002, the Under Secretary for Defense Industries of the Turkish Ministry of Defense signed a $175 million memorandum of understanding (MOU) for Turkish partnership in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) systems development and demonstration (SDD) phase. Turkey had taken part in the JSF's concept demonstration phase (CDP) to begin its association through foreign military sales for $6.2 million. As a CDP partner Turkey gained significant insight into the program concepts and requirements definition and participated in various capabilities modeling and simulation events. Included in these efforts was a life cycle cost control study, an important area of consideration for the Turkish Air Force that examined the changes to Air Force logistics that should be accomplished to support their JSF aircraft. As a Level III partner, Turkey will participate over the next 10 years of the systems development and demonstration phase.

The original plan was to build 3,002 JSFs in three versions for the U.S. Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps and the British Royal Air Force and Royal Navy. As of late March 2002 the Pentagon was reviewing a proposal to cut JSF production by 400 aircraft and limit the Navy's F/A-18E/F acquisition to 460 aircraft versus 548. The JSF reductions, which would be split about equally between the Marine Corps STOVL and the Navy's carrier versions, would reduce JSF procurement by the Navy and Marines from 1089 aircraft to 680. The Navy cut would reduce the total buy to about 2,600.

Recent DoD working groups and conferences have begun to question community acceptance strategies for some new weapons systems. In particular, the Joint Strike Fighter may face a variety of challenges in several potential beddown locations. The aircraft generates an extraordinary amount of thrust from its single engine, and according to preliminary analyses, does so at some cost in noise and air quality. Preliminary analysis of the San Diego area has revealed air quality limitations that may preclude unrestricted operation of the STOVL (Short Takeoff, Vertical Landing) version of the aircraft that will be procured by the USMC. The highest thrust settings for the aircraft’s F-119 engine will occur during transition to and from vertical flight. Noise and emissions, especially of oxides of Nitrogen (NOx), may exceed those encountered in any equivalent engine.


One disadvantage in the Typhoon's $58 million price. It is more expensive than the $30 million F-16, while the F-35 is expected to cost on average about $50 million when it comes into production. Eurofighter originally planned to bring the Typhoon to the market in the mid-1990s, a decade before the next-generation US fighter would be ready. But budget cuts, technical problems and disagreements among the four Eurofighter partners led to a delay of seven or eight years.

Just going by pricing between the F-35 and the Eurofighter, I'm more incline to lean toward the F-35.

[One?]

People stop arguing. The UAE have too much money and don't know what to do with it. And the royal family like to collect planes. Yes they like to collect planes.


Thats why the have the largest airbus fleet. They own every type of airbus. If a new plane came out they want it. Wether they will use it or not they don't care.

[vitiaz]

Wish development had continued with the F16-XL

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-16XL1/Medium/EC97-44354-3.jpg

Lots more range and payload without those goofy conformal tanks...

[Seiyuuki]

The F-16XL was competing against the F-15E and the F-15E won, so even though it's a nice plane, I'm not shedding any tears.